Many see it just as Dale's altered memories
#🤔｜theories
solid haven
If Bob leaves a cube behind in the PD then whatever took place for that memory to be transformed into a cube could've corrupted him.
solid haven
Edd was talking about how Dale extracting Bob's memories in Theatre caused him to become corrupted, and you said that it most likely didn't have an effect on Bob's corruption in the police department in Case 23. Also while discussing those events you mentioned how Bob left behind a black cube after attacking the policeman.
So if that black cube was from Bob then whatever process created it could've corrupted him.
azure bay
I see some parallels with others early CE games. In The Lake & Harvey's Box CS also leave cubes after being gone
azure bay
But C23 is one of them
solid haven
Nowhere has a point.
azure bay
There were 2 possibilities of regarding this kind of scenes
Either CS ran away losing a cube on its way
Or it was captured in a cube like we see in the Hotel ending
Bob's case is probably confirmed to be the 1st one
Would it mean that the others are as well?
astral frost
In the other cases, the CS leave a cube when they are defeated
A little correction, this is the TWD scene
hollow comet
azure bay
In the other cases, the CS leave a cube when they are defeated
@astral frost I regard that not as killing them but making them go away
Can I be wrong?
astral frost
No no I think you are right
azure bay
I see the main difference between C23 scene & ones from TL & HB
A CS is not agressive towards Dale & leaves on its own
astral frost
That's what Laura did with Mr Crow
azure bay
Explain plz
astral frost
Laura killed Aldous' wife and his cow in the Mill
But then Aldous said something which convinced Laura to stop
hollow raptor
Is the old woman really his wife?
I always imagined them to be roommates, lol
azure bay
Is the old woman really his wife?
I always imagined them to be roommates, lol
@hollow raptor a new synopsis on RL instagram sais so
hollow comet
a very demanding roommate
hollow raptor
the official rusty lake instagram?
azure bay
the official rusty lake instagram?
@hollow raptor exactly
hollow raptor
i see
no grumpy roommate then 😦
azure bay
Edd was talking about how Dale extracting Bob's memories in Theatre caused him to become corrupted, and you said that it most likely didn't have an effect on Bob's corrupted in the police department in Case 23. Also while discussing those events you mentioned how Bob left behind a black cube after attacking the policeman.
@solid haven I tend to think that the cube was already inside him. Like in Theatre.
Do we ever see the memories outside a cube or at least a head?
hollow raptor
so she is a furry then
solid haven
I'm not sure I get what you mean. I mean, even in Theatre we saw the cubes inside Bob's head and only once we took them out did he become corrupted.
azure bay
I'm not sure I get what you mean. I mean, even in Theatre we saw the cubes inside Bob's head and only once we took them out did he become corrupted.
@solid haven I'm telling that it seems normal to have cubes inside one's head
& if not the cube could be created upon losing them cause the memories can not exist without a vessel
solid haven
Yes. And when they somehow find their way out of someone's head that person tends to become corrupted.
azure bay
Then the corruption happened in advance of losing the memories
The thing is he seems to be asked for them by the time of losing a cube
solid haven
I suppose it's more likely that CS just have a tendency of leaving behind black cubes when ‘defeated’.
solid haven
In the PD?
azure bay
Yep
solid haven
From whose perspective did we experience that again?
azure bay
Bob's one
It seems that not every protagonist's word is presented in games with a CE narrative
Tbh, only a few
solid haven
And wdym mean by ignore?
azure bay
I suppose it's more likely that CS just have a tendency of leaving behind black cubes when ‘defeated’.
@solid haven I'm just checking if you remember & consider Dale's words here
Or are you talking about it in general?
astral frost
I consider Dale's words ,in that context, as a way to say "I need you tell me everything you know about Laura"
This could be one of the possibilities
btw I've just re-finished TWD
azure bay
I consider Dale's words ,in that context, as a way to say "I need you tell me everything you know about Laura"
@astral frost I doubt that because...
"I've just seen a suspect turning into a blood thirsty monster! I still need to interrogate him!"
That what seems to happen if we combine your version with an assumption that C23 is quite literal
astral frost
Ok you're right
azure bay
Tbh, the fact of Dale being cool with what he's seen is weird
The whole sequence
Noticing a murder, seeing a jumpscare & asking it for memories
astral frost
And that's why you think Dale already knew something
astral frost
Just noticed the walls in TWD Manager's office and in the new Albert game are the same
TWD
New game
grizzled bluff
👀
covert wyvern
👀 👀 👀
astral frost
even if they probably changed it
hollow comet
didn't someone point this out on the day when it was teased?
covert wyvern
Oops were all late to the party
grizzled bluff
It's my party and I'll repeatinformationalotofpeopledidn'tknow if I want to
Doesn't fit the song, but I tried
covert wyvern
No no, it works.
astral frost
oopsie
azure bay
didn't someone point this out on the day when it was teased
@astral frost Heyoo!
astral frost
😩
ivory girder
I've just realized in TWD dream 5 there's no hole in Bob's head when he was interrogated, which means that he was not dead when he was interrogated. How tf he became a corrupted soul while he was not dead?
Theatre happened before Case 23 then TLS right?
And, TLS was real or not?
It seems to be a memory that was changed by Mr. Owl.
ivory girder
I really don't understand this
hollow comet
I think Bob's corruption was a result of the false accusation placed on him
apparently people can turn into corrupted souls without dying
it has happened with Bob, Van Gogh, and Dale
corruption seems to link with trauma in some way
ivory girder
But if case 23 happened after Theatre so there must have been a hole in Bob's head right?
Case 23 chap. 2 happened in 1972 when Theatre happened in 1971
hollow comet
Theatre was one of Dale's memories and TWD dreams were likely altered. Bob never shot himself
ivory girder
Huh
hollow comet
at least that's what it appears
azure bay
Death seems to be not necessary for some nor enough for others to get corrupted
empty arch
Hi
astral frost
Hi Alex
minor wren
Would somebody explain to me whats the meaning of the game ,,cube escape-harvey`s box,, in the storyline of Rusty lake
covert wyvern
okay hear me out, you're a parrot, in a box, trying to escape.
minor wren
And that`s everything? I thought that this game has something important with the storyline like every other ,,cube escape,, game but it looks like there isnt.
covert wyvern
I mean there's definitely interesting things going on there.
the implication that harvey defeats a corrupted soul sure is interesting, for example/
minor wren
Thats true
torpid shore
I think it’s literally just to conserve the continuity of the series (I.E. how TF Harvey got to Rusty Lake) and they just said “let’s make it a game where you play as the parrot for a laugh”
covert wyvern
Harvey moved there w/ laura I guess.
minor wren
Thats good point!
But if Harvey is attacked by the corrupted soul isnt Laura gonna help?
minor wren
Oh, I didnt think for that
torpid shore
Don’t you see Harvey’s box in the Mill?
minor wren
Yes, now I watched a video of the last chapter of case 23 and there was harvey`s box
astral frost
We must say Harvey was shown in many games, but we still don't know anything about him
Probably devs are keeping Harvey for a future game
So even Harvey's box will fit more in the storyline
azure bay
Laura's visited the lake
With Harvey
In a box
The cabin was even visible for Harvey
Then she left the box
So Dale's found it later
The end
ivory girder
There must be something more to that like who is the corrupted soul that attack them or what happen after that. It can't be just that
azure bay
Why the CS could not be a random one?
ivory girder
They make 2 games just only to make that?
azure bay
We don't know their original plans
azure bay
But I assume with the info given that there is no need to overcomplicate that
Untill we discover more
ivory girder
This is #🤔｜theories :))))))))
azure bay
Theories should be founded upon facts to be plausible :)))))))))
Facts: dangerous lake inhabited with CS
A trip with a box
The box was left after
ivory girder
Well, I just found out Albert left Frank in the well for 33 years and he was still ALIVE
That's something
ivory girder
Yeah but why can't he just leave him dead?
I think Albert knew
ALL about the scarifices and reborn blahblahblah
azure bay
Maybe just a need of torture?
ivory girder
That's probably the reason why he made Rose to complete 10 sacrifices
azure bay
Or just to be loved by someone
ivory girder
Who knows 🙂
azure bay
Or William was manipulating Vanderbooms all along 😈
ivory girder
Albert is still very mysterious
He brought up all the 3 children
And leave 1 of them to kill him
ivory girder
Only him brought up them. No one else
He was probably planning Frank to stay down the well
@azure bay Yeah, he did that just to torture Emma
to make her kill herself
azure bay
& everything else continued by momentum
In fact, it was probably William to gather everyone
ivory girder
And also, after Leonard and Frank was being in the roots, did they just die or still be alive?
azure bay
No idea
azure bay
I assume they were still alive afterwards cause on paper the ritual required just 10 sacrifices with no 2 whole bodies as a bonus
ivory girder
Where did they go? Any idea? And why Rose was only the one that brought up Laura? Or they are there but they didn't mention them?
And where was Rose after Laura grew up?
A lot of questions 🙂
azure bay
Rose was taken with Laura by the roots to the surface
These 2 could be left underground
For a little while
ivory girder
And die.
ivory girder
Another thing I want to mention, the code that we put in the TV in an acheivement in Paradox chap.1 that related to a Bob's conversation with Mr. Owl or someone else I don't remember is the same as one in Case 23 in the TV that made him corrupted
This must mean something.
That conversation sounds like he was in TWD
azure bay
It sounds like it was any interview
ivory girder
I don't remember it correctly but the code is exactly the same
azure bay
The code was for TV
hollow comet
oh hey, that's an interesting detail
azure bay
To get the achievement
ivory girder
Both are 247
To get the achievement
@azure bay I mean that but my English is not pretty good 😦
hollow comet
@ivory girder I don't seem to recall, where exactly was it in Paradox?
I'd love to speculate about any connections
hollow comet
azure bay
So
hollow comet
thanks for the info
azure bay
Paradox ch 1
You need to find a code combination inside donator's files
In the drawers
That could be similar to Dale looking through his data base
This combination being entered gives a cassette
It contains an interview
Presumably Mr. Crow asks Bob to tell his name & what he remembers
He tells his point of view of the PD scene
"everything went black"
"I only remember numbers"
247
The very sane numbers from case 23
Upon entering them we see IRL Bob lying on the table with a hole in his head
The footage was probably sent as a part of a contest
Maybe not
Later in TWD the same story was told by the same guy
But no numbers
Therefore I think that it was retconned
& there is no need to overthink that
Unless you find something to convince me
hollow raptor
wait how did i not know about a cassette about bob?
azure bay
it's hidden
you need to watch the movie for clues
5 little quests give you an achievement each
& a symbol for the safe
hollow raptor
i got all the achievements but not a cassette for bob
azure bay
It's impossible unless you've followed a shorted walkthrough
hollow raptor
huh
hollow raptor
aaah
oooh
okay
azure bay
but on the cassete he speaks
hollow raptor
uhm
hollow comet
ok I only know about one green cassette in the fourth achievement
azure bay
that's it
hollow comet
it gives you the code 247 which is the channel you switch to on the TV and Bob is lying dead with a bullet hole in his head
hollow raptor
ooh
i found that one by zapping through the channels
astral frost
That's a method hahahaha
azure bay
it gives you the code 247 which is the channel you switch to on the TV and Bob is lying dead with a bullet hole in his head
@hollow comet It gives the whole interview that ends with 247
hollow comet
I have never heard of this, can you perhaps link a recording if there's one somewhere?
azure bay
rollback
hollow comet
when reversed it spells 742 out on the screen
azure bay
to the very beginning
minor wren
Is the place of ,,cube escape theater" a real or its just a memory of Dale because in that game Mr. Owl says that this is the theater of Dale`s mind, but we see that in the white door that Bob actually comes to that place and this confuses me a lot? Please tell me if you know.
azure bay
I assume that there is in fact RL Theatre
& both Bob & Dale have visited it the same day
It may or may not be full of illusions back then
but when Dale returns everything is altered to feature 5 more plays
& he gets another program
even more ilision/magic heavy
& a lesson
the thing is he returns via his memories
Bob also returns via his memories, but if they are altered, it's not that intense
I guess they both did not meet originally
& Dale's cameo could feature the one from Theatre e.g. Dale-the-enlightenment-seeker
but I have no idea how this is supposed to work
minor wren
Ok,thank you.
astral frost
Another little proof to add: in TWD first dream we see an advertise of the singer's play in the Theatre
who is impersonating The Lady of The Lake
astral frost
Theatre probably exists and actors can stage their plays there
azure bay
yeah, it's also played on radio
astral frost
yep
azure bay
unless it's all just altered dreams
astral frost
not totally, I think
I mean, in both Dale and Bob's memories there are real elements
even if there are also altered events
azure bay
what's real for sure?
astral frost
nothing 🙂
but right now it's simpler to us theories creators
Who do you think were we acting for during TWD ARG?
azure bay
TWD employees
astral frost
that makes sense
azure bay
at least furing the search
astral frost
so we brought the memories of the patients escaped in 1972 to TWD
azure bay
but hacking Hoorn's profile seems to be performed by the opposing force
astral frost
that's right too
there's also another point to be considered
We found those codes in 2020 and we used them in 1972, helping Sarah
maybe it's just a game trick and it isn't involved with RL lore
azure bay
I tend to think so
astral frost
btw I replayed the ARG and I found out there wasn't anything important to add to the storyline and to the Mr Owl group, except some deeper descriptions about TWD doctors and patients
the main thing about the ARG is the escape of 1972
azure bay
& the return of cubes 50 years later
astral frost
everything would let me think we are cooperating with Sarah
Is she working alone? or for someone other?
azure bay
I don't believe she was working alone
but I have am suspicious about the manager helping her for some reason
astral frost
Cause everything she does is to save TWD patients, including Bob
but I have am suspicious about the manager helping her for some reason
@azure bay remember the mail from the Manager to Sarah
astral frost
The manager said her Bob's memories were important cause they contained elements about Laura. Without them, Bob would have been considered useless
hollow comet
yeah but by the end of Day 7 they had all the dreams extracted
Bob would've been no use to Mr Owl anymore
azure bay
yeah but by the end of Day 7 they had all the dreams extracted
@hollow comet that does not seem to be an extraction, but rather installment
hollow comet
yeah, I'm not so sure about that.
astral frost
@hollow comet that does not seem to be an extraction, but rather installment
@azure bay I can add an important point to this
azure bay
The manager said her Bob's memories were important cause they contained elements about Laura. Without them, Bob would have been considered useless
@astral frost & he's let her do what she did despite Hoorn's warning
astral frost
right
btw
I've read TWD group was developing some machinery to take memories and display them to be viewed
on a screen for example
I think they're talking about machines such as the one in Bob's room
azure bay
where have you exactly read that?
astral frost
wait a moment
I can find it
In dr Hoorn interview
-Is there any possibility that your
current work will lead to important
advances in science?
-I believe so. For years we have
observed electrical activities in the
neural circuit, mostly in response
to a basic stimulus. These findings
are now rudimentary, nothing new.
What I am working on now, however, is much more important and
advanced than that. I am talking
about the transmission of graphical responses linked to the visual
cortex from a past stimulus. We
have done some outstanding work
already, but there is still a lot of
additional research to be done.
This phrase is the point : "I am talking about the transmission of graphical responses linked to the visual cortex from a past stimulus"
I think TWD refined the extraction of the memories method
In Bob's case, they didn't need a cube to feed a Lake, but only the images about Laura
so they didn't extract them probably
azure bay
I don't see anything but transmission & possibility of editing
astral frost
it's what they're doing
I can explain better
do you remember Sarah secret level?
when she erases Bob's memories
hollow comet
it's the whole thing with the closet TV
they can make his dreams appear on a screen
astral frost
exactly
azure bay
& alter them
hollow comet
uhm
azure bay
Sarah's confirmed to change the whole seqence 1 by 1
astral frost
So every night they connect him to the tv and they watch his memories
hollow comet
imo the only dream-altering happens in the Sarah level, nowhere before that
and those are dreams, not clear memories
azure bay
but everything else is potentially altered too
hollow comet
so he never shot himself in the head or went to a club with all the hybrids
azure bay
we cannot be 100% sure
astral frost
and those are dreams, not clear memories
@hollow comet oh man
I like simple explanations ahahah
why didn't I consider that before?
hollow comet
I mean there's no reason for Bob not to have weird dreams that are twisted versions of his irl experiences
all of us have weird dreams
astral frost
Bob is living DREAMS, not MEMORIES
azure bay
we need to remember that Dale has also seen Bob shooting himself. In a memory altered by the crew. So if the shot was not real, the idea of it may come from the crew even in Bob's case
hollow comet
Bob is living DREAMS, not MEMORIES
yep!
astral frost
which can collide but are substantially different
azure bay
Bob is living DREAMS, not MEMORIES
@astral frost but emploees talk exactly about memories
astral frost
which can collide but are substantially different
.
hollow comet
his dreams, like many other humans, contain elements of memories
astral frost
Our dreams are made out by memories from different situations and times
hollow comet
biologically speaking, dreams are just noise produced by the memory making process when a person is asleep. At least that's the most convincing hypothesis for me
azure bay
I refuse to believe dream 4 being just a dream because of Bob's encounter of Mr. Crow
& the dreams before seem pretty realistic
astral frost
You mean Theatre's one right?
azure bay
yep
astral frost
Dreams can be realistic, some of Bob's one are completely so
The first ones
when he's at the Owl Nest, or where he's fired
azure bay
& the next one except the part of waking up
astral frost
yes
Even the Lost Soul one could be pretty realistic with a simple explanation
Bob was drunk and had visions and deja-vus
azure bay
I see it happening right after Bob's so-called shot
astral frost
yep
azure bay
& sharing some events with Theatre
astral frost
true
astral frost
exactly
hollow comet
he didn't really shoot himself, did he?
astral frost
Bob wasn't conducing a so healthy life after Laura's death
he didn't really shoot himself, did he?
@hollow comet I think not
azure bay
he didn't really shoot himself, did he?
@hollow comet the shot is either not real, an unusual one or rolled back by the crew, as I can judge
hollow comet
I don't think it's real either. He wouldn't end up in the police station if it was
astral frost
My last thought about that scene was: the barman served to Bob a "shot drink" which was the one hitting him and which "went through his mind"
What would a barman serve you as "the last thing"? hahaha
something hard
hollow comet
interesting, I never thought of it like that 
azure bay
In fact, this type of shot is not that lethat & may be followed just by amnesia. If there were a scar, it would also explain a time span between the shot & the PD - spent in a hospital. But there is no scar
astral frost
My last thought about that scene was: the barman served to Bob a "shot drink" which was the one hitting him and which "went through his mind"
The whole set of the events in the dreams makes me think so
hollow comet
not lethal? It went through his brain lmao
azure bay
not lethal? It went through his brain lmao
@hollow comet a friend of mine (a hardcore theorist) researched the question
that what he sais
astral frost
Bob's start drinking in the Theatre, he continued in some others pubs around the city (like The Lost Soul, which was probably the last one) and he woke up in the middle of the street, like a drunkard
hollow comet
sure
azure bay
but I've lost it
Bob's start drinking in the Theatre, he continued in some others pubs around the city (like The Lost Soul, which was probably the last one) and he woke up in the middle of the street, like a drunkard
@astral frost too many familiar & surreal images for it to be any real, imo
astral frost
like the buildings along the street in TLS hahaha
but your version of the facts is the one we used to consider reliable until now
so I would preserve both for now
cause we used to think Theatre wasn't real too
and now we changed our mind
hollow comet
I think there's just 2 3 things in Theatre that are not real- Bob shooting himself in the head, and his corruption (wrong timing). And obviously, the plays were just a puzzle element.
azure bay
I think there's just
23 things in Theatre that are not real- Bob shooting himself in the head, and his corruption (wrong timing). And obviously, the plays were just a puzzle element.
@hollow comet I think these plays were the lesson for Dale about samsara. So not just for puzzle sake
astral frost
I agree with you
@hollow comet I think these plays were the lesson for Dale about samsara. So not just for puzzle sake
every play has a meaning
even if I can't understand the Animal's one hahahah
for example the one about CS explains what they have to do in order to ascend
azure bay
I think there's just
23 things in Theatre that are not real- Bob shooting himself in the head, and his corruption (wrong timing). And obviously, the plays were just a puzzle element.
@hollow comet & I'm not sure about timing tho. If there was at least a 'magical' shot from Dale's perspective the corruprion is reasoned & expected
azure bay
exactly
astral frost
until that moment, he's just a man with an hole in the head
hollow comet
every play has a meaning
ah, fair. What I meant was that Laura didn't really die on stage and float up while Bob watched
like, the plays are one of the things in Theatre that didn't happen irl
azure bay
ah, fair. What I meant was that Laura didn't really die on stage and float up while Bob watched
@hollow comet surreal altered memories o-o-o-o-o!
astral frost
hahaha
like, the plays are one of the things in Theatre that didn't happen irl
@hollow comet yes we agree on that fact
since we came up at this point, could the bartender be Mr Crow in the real events?
azure bay
since we came up at this point, could the bartender be Mr Crow in the real events?
@astral frost I believe so
hollow comet
definitely
azure bay
I think he actually gave Bob a pistol. The shot is questionable
hollow comet
Mr Crow did most of the fieldwork, except Harvey ofc
astral frost
we came up with some strong conclusions guys, but I still have a doubt
azure bay
what's wrong?
hollow comet
astral frost
That's a TWD routine paper
I was thinking: how can Bob's dreams affect him so much?
I mean
I can understand the "confused" status
But what about the Corrupted one?
is he really corrupted in TWD?
azure bay
I think so
astral frost
in that case, he would have been corrupted since the first day
hollow comet
they put him in solitary confinement, so ig that's why?
corruption does seem to link with depression
it's happened with Laura
azure bay
- the madness born in solitary confinement
astral frost
- the madness born in solitary confinemen
@azure bay so what about the Corruption seen in theatre and Case 23?
He would have become corrupted before TWD events
hollow comet
I mean he was alone in a room from the beginning but on day 5 he was put in a chamber and not interacted with like the other days
astral frost
but this brings us to the start point
if he became corrupted in day 4/5 (I don't remember), this means TWD doctors extracted his memories
But Theatre and Case 23 show us something other
azure bay
Let me gather my thoughts
hollow comet
TWD day experiences are irl
azure bay
It requires a long answer
hollow comet
He did become corrupted on day 5
that was the second time he got corrupted
the first was in the police station
theatre's corruption scene is not real
astral frost
2 corruptions? It's hard to think
this would mean he did something like Human -> CS -> Human ->CS -> Human
azure bay
theatre's corruption scene is not real
@hollow comet I wouldn't be so sure here. There is nothing to discuss anymore for now, but we don't have any strong evidence here
hollow comet
this would mean he did something like Human -> CS -> Human ->CS -> Human
@astral frost I don't see why not, elevator Dale was flickering in and out of corruption lol
astral frost
Dale isn't transforming there
hollow comet
about the Theatre scene, we did go over it in this convo lol
astral frost
it's like he's slowly becoming a CS
hollow comet
Theatre Bob couldn't have been corrupted if he never shot himself in the head
azure bay
Theatre Bob couldn't have been corrupted if he never shot himself in the head
@hollow comet the shot could be just an unusual one & then rolled back by the crew. The whole situation is too complicated to review just 1 answer
I won't continue here
But would gladly talk about Bob's other corruptions
Cause it doesn't rrally matter how many were there
2 or 3
I agree it's too much anyways
azure bay
But I tend to believe that there were multiple
Cause I don't see reasons to ignore 6 days of TWD
@astral frost do you have any explanation for Bob's uncorrupted perception for the 1st time?
astral frost
I have nothing that wouldn't question the whole building around the Samsara transformations in RL
aka, I do not want to think there's an explanation such as "it's Bob's fight against depression and everything is a mental creation"
Instead, I just thought something other
more interesting
The pistol Aldous gives to Bob in the Theatre (whatever it represents) is the trigger which leads to the memory loss
In fact, after the shot, Bob goes to TLS and he doesn't remember his own identity (asked by the bouncer)
At the end of TLS, Bob realises he's losing everything: he's losing his mind
It's like the shot made Bob losing his memories
In fact, when he wakes up in the morning, he has nothing to do but call TWD
Do you agree?
azure bay
It works if we take the normal dreams only
azure bay
I agree
astral frost
but we are not considering, for example, Case 23 scene
azure bay
Yes
& the whole half a year (or bigger) time span
What's more, I see a duality in TLS dream
Bob understands that he's lost his memory in the club. But also understands that he's lost it in the PD
astral frost
What's more, the PD scene is set in summer 1972 and TWD is set in August 1972
So even the dates can't help us
azure bay
They seem to be quite close
azure bay
I have several versions
No strong evidence in favour of any
- elements that some don't accept here
But I'll try to present all
astral frost
- elements that some don't accept here
@azure bay why?
azure bay
Some dislike the concept of time travel despite the devs directly talking about it
astral frost
where did they talk about this?
azure bay
'Time traveler' achievement for Birthday
astral frost
oh ok
azure bay
& calls to change the past in Seasons
astral frost
well you can add those theories after all
it's theories channel as everyone says
no one would get offended with one more theory
azure bay
I know, so
I see some key possibilities
The shenanigans of Theatre & PD may or may not coexist
Not sure which to choose 1st
Well
Let's suppose that they all take place
astral frost
nooo
azure bay
No, too many conditions
astral frost
hahaha
azure bay
I'll try something else
astral frost
that one made me think a version which would match all the pieces together
azure bay
Ok
Then let me modify it
- Bob either shoots himself or sees the illusions, but he does not remember that. He could be corrupted alongside the process & that would require a containment & some way of uncorruption. He could be contained with no corruption as well. Just in order not to be lost for the future plans of the crew.
Then he either gets arrested or sent to the PD by the crew, but anyways he keeps some memories. He gets corrupted either because of his grief or the returning effect of the shot. He loses his remaining memories & runs away. Gets uncorrupted, calls TWD.
- He visits theatre with no adventures & he is turned in (e.g. arrested) several months later. He corrupts due to his grief, loses his memories & runs away. (later he probably calls TWD) Dale gets to the lake, returns to theatre & by that he either creates a new timeline or changes the old one. The alterations make Bob shoot himself & lose his memories. He becomes corrupted, runs away & avoids being arrested. He gets uncorrupted & wakes up before calling TWD
There are some problems
For example, Dale's cameo in dream 4 also looks like he's traveling
Or there would probably be no Bob's book if he was never accused
@astral frost are u still there?
astral frost
yep
- Bob either shoots himself or sees the illusions, but he does not remember that. He could be corrupted alongside the process & that would require a containment & some way of uncorruption. He could be contained with no corruption as well. Just in order not to be lost for the future plans of the crew.
Then he either gets arrested or sent to the PD by the crew, but anyways he keeps some memories. He gets corrupted either because of his grief or the returning effect of the shot. He loses his remaining memories & runs away. Gets uncorrupted, calls TWD.
@azure bay I prefer that one sincerely
azure bay
I'm just trying to think outside the box
Tbh, now after formulating everything I clearly see flaws of the 2nd one
That's the true miracle of the discussion
If it goes on fair direction
astral frost
hahahahah
I've noticed some flaws also on mine theory
aka it doesn't consider all the representations of Bob in the various games
azure bay
That means?
astral frost
it means you can simply debunk my version by considering the various times we see Bob corrupted or not
btw
azure bay
I'd like to see the whole picture once again with the flaws presented afterwards
astral frost
My version is:
-Bob is depressed because of Laura's death
-Bob goes to the Theatre
-Bob receives the gun by Aldous and starts losing memories. He also meets Dale, who is following him because he suspects him to be the killer
-Bob continues going around the city, always stalked by the police
-Bob goes to the Lost Soul. That's where he's arrested by Dale and the other policeman.
-Bob is brought to the PD, waiting to be interrogated. Drunk and depressed, the policeman's attack is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Bob becomes totally Corrupted, kills the agent and gets out the PD.
-From this moment to the end of TWD game, Bob is Corrupted. We see him as a normal Human, but I think he went to TWD as a CS. In the end, he finally re-transformed into a Human
azure bay
What are your flaws?
astral frost
the fact we see him as a normal human
until day 5
But, again
Is what we see in TWD real?
Or just Bob's vision of that?
azure bay
I have questions for his dreams only + the day 7
And day 5
As he goes crazy
& probably some of day 6
Cause surrealism
astral frost
In that case he would always be Corrupted or he wouldn't
hollow comet
vague imp
Hey, do you guys think Dale's somehow related to Albert? I mean, Albert wore a deer skull mask in Roots, and Dale wore a deer head mask in The White Door
And by related I don't mean biologically
solid haven
Both had childhood trauma.
astral frost
Maybe? I used to consider Albert's deer skull just a mask (as he always wore masks during his life). About Dale wearing it, we don't have enough elements to judge
I must say that mask is the skull of Mr Deer from Hotel btw
spare sand
Hi @placid pendantr
azure bay
I must say that mask is the skull of Mr Deer from Hotel btw
@astral frost the same sprite does not mean that it's the same object
espesially if we are talking about deer's skull
hidden ledge
yea the same is true with the grandfather clock from paradise
ivory girder
Do we know Laura's birthday?
vague imp
We dont see a full date birth at paradox?
azure bay
Spring 1935 is listed in Paradox.
I think it's a mistake cause spring 1935 was the start of the ritual in Roots & it seemed several months to take.
ivory girder
So here's my stupid theory: Laura's birthday is 24/7/1935 🙂
vague imp
Yep
ivory girder
Is the elevator in Case 23 chap.4 the same as one in Hotel?
quick birch
hi
astral frost
Is the elevator in Case 23 chap.4 the same as one in Hotel?
The sequence of the events is :
-Dale descends into the depths of the Lake
-Dale reaches the White Room under the Lake, where Aldous creates the Golden Cube
-Dale begins his ascent to the Hotel
So, in my opinion, there are 2 possibilities
quick birch
well in paradox secret ending there is an elevator
astral frost
First, it's the same elevator, even if phisically it would be located in 2 different places (under the Cabin and under the Hotel). But it's a magical elevator, isn't it?
Second, there are 2 elevators and, once reached the backdrop, Dale walks around until he arrives to the White Room (as seen in the Cave's scene)
well in paradox secret ending there is an elevator
@quick birch Paradox is when Dale apparently starts his ascent
astral frost
@azure bay I've just thought: what if Paradox covers also Dale's journey under the Lake? In Paradox we see Dale getting out from that room and wandering in a sort of forest
I mean this
@quick birch yep
That is the elevator which will lead Dale to the Hotel
astral frost
feel free to discuss about your theories and opinions here 🙂
quick birch
🙂
azure bay
@azure bay I've just thought: what if Paradox covers also Dale's journey under the Lake? In Paradox we see Dale getting out from that room and wandering in a sort of forest
@astral frost I don't think so. I see Paradox happening before the journey. Possibly during several months between Case 23 & The Cave. Or in the short moment before golden cube was created
The journey is marked to start in The Cave
When he entered the elevator
Only this secret ending of ch2 may be interpreted as its beginning from Dale's perspective
Otherwise we'd see the elevator scene to open the game
astral frost
yep, I meant another thing
I was saying Paradox events could cover the time span between the moment Dale reaching the backdrop of the lake and the moment he begins his ascent in the elevator with the golden cube
The elevator scene is the ending, cause it's going up
azure bay
ah, just a misunderstanding
I'm refering only to the elevator trip as the journey because Mr. Owl does so in Theatre & The Cave
azure bay
I tend to think that Paradox happened in a short moment of machine's fucntioning. That was the only moment of Dale being physically connected to Laura as we see in Paradox
astral frost
That connection is definitely important
azure bay
but if this physical connection is not that important, Paradox could start even in the end of Case 23 when he "did not feel his body anymore"
I see a possibility of that bind being purely spiritual
ivory girder
In Birthday and Theatre we didn't see Dale with the golden cube. Is it a glitch or it's really not there?
They have updated every CE games so I think the other one made more sense.
And in Hotel we also did not see the golden cube.
It can't be a glitch for that long
I think Dale reaches the Lake once then goes up to hotel then goes down again to have a golden cube then goes up again then Paradox happened.
But it kinda messy
Theatre and Birthday both happened in the first time Dale went up
The Golden cube leads you to the future right?
So it can't just take Dale back to the day Hotel happened
azure bay
I guess it wasn't put there & It's definitely not a glitch. Devs either did not think out that at the moment or decided not to tease it too early. They also wouldn't add it in CE updates. They've notified us that there would not be any new content outside tips & achievements.
There is a big evidence of Paradox happening before Birthday outside the golden cube referring us to The Cave ending
ivory girder
So Dale just went up and down twice.
azure bay
@ivory girder What's the ending of Birthday?
answer plz, it's important for you to understand
ivory girder
Yeah
azure bay
his black cube became white
ivory girder
...
vague imp
XD...
the silence is making this 10 times funnier for me
edit: ik why they are silent but still funny
ivory girder
10 mins already
covert wyvern
Please do go on.
Nowhere is currently on a small break from posting.
They'll be back soon enough.
ivory girder
I know he is still online he is probably gathering the evidences
undone sun
theyre nowhere to be seen
covert wyvern
It's because they've been timed out.
ivory girder
Imma head out. Goodbye guys. I'm too sleepy now.
covert wyvern
take care.
ivory girder
Thank u
azure bay
I have no rights to make you listen to me
I've been punished for that
I don't want to be timed out again
covert wyvern
then I suggest you stop being rude and hogging this channel as your own 😉
of course, you're always welcome to discuss theory.
azure bay
Can you show me the word of me being rude? So I won't repeat that
covert wyvern
could you please not interrupt me for a moment?
You do this constantly, hogging this channel as your own. there's a lot of people in this server, and they all deserve your say. they DO NOT need your permission and are AT ALL TIMES allowed to post whatever they wish.
Discord isn't a forum, it's not exactly suited for long messages. it's quick and dirty 😄
azure bay
I was just asking their permission to let me finish my thoughts
If that's bad, I'm stopping
vague imp
not do minimod but shouldn't this convo be taken to DM's?
azure bay
Fair enough
azure bay
so :з
black cube turining into white means painful memories turning bright
then the parents are alive (at least in Dale's illusions)
then there is no trauma
then the treatment is not required
in Paradox we see otherwise
ivory girder
so you mean that Paradox happened before Birthday?
azure bay
It could happen after but parents being dead there make more sense if in happens before
ivory girder
and also, why was theatre a bad memory?
azure bay
I have no idea
If Bob's shot was real that could probably affect Dale's mood
or he just did not like the show
azure bay
probably it is
vague imp
a little extreme do off yourself just bc's you don't like a show
i think it was more of a "metaphor" than anything all jokes aside
ivory girder
So first Dale went down from the Cabin to the bottom of the Lake (Case 23), then he received a golden cube in the Cave, then Paradox happened, then the golden cube suddenly disappeared and Birthday and Theatre happened as he went up from the bottom of the lake.
That was long.
vague imp
Theatre happend in 1971
The white door happened in 1972
so i don't think Bob literally shot himself in the head
vague imp
it is literally confirmed do be in his head i feel
ivory girder
An illusion was seen by 2 different pov.
azure bay
Because it was created by the same forces
ivory girder
But why did Mr. Owl need to alter the Theatre memory into Bob's shotting himself?
What is the use?
vague imp
"The bullet went straight to my head , But then i saw all my memories drifting by"
i think the bullet was his memories
like he had that moment of "ohhhhhhhhhhh"
that's how you mostly remember trauma [past or present] do get over it or how it can feel
azure bay
I see "memories drifting by" more like some1 extracting them
vague imp
maybe that too but yeah i think the white door is metaphor for moving on from trauma/regrets
i mean you can't heal otherwise
ivory girder
But if it was true, why did Dale have to do it again in Case 23. He has no memories left.
vague imp
well i assume Bob was picked up by Dale from the bar
azure bay
But why did Mr. Owl need to alter the Theatre memory into Bob's shotting himself?
@ivory girder they needed to get Bob to TWD, that could be the reason
vague imp
so he could be taken into questioning?
azure bay
But if it was true, why did Dale have to do it again in Case 23. He has no memories left.
@ivory girder that's a tough question. Literally everyone is confused
ivory girder
So one of them is real, the other one is altered by Mr. Owl
The Theatre one seems fake
azure bay
so he could be taken into questioning?
@vague imp Dale does not seem to be working with Bob. He was thinking about the Lake only. Plus, there are months between Theatre & case 23
vague imp
no but he was a suspect
azure bay
So one of them is real, the other one is altered by Mr. Owl
@ivory girder they both could be faked. TWD has tech to alter memories
vague imp
sure he didn't work with Bob but they still interacted [i will be it in a more negative way]
ivory girder
We can see in TWD that Dale didn't ask Bob any questions, only did the officer
azure bay
no but he was a suspect
@vague imp Dale has no signs of suspecting Bob. I guess someone else took him in
vague imp
no i mean
in case 23 Dale literally speaks with Bob
and "False Accusations" is a book he wrote
i think it's sorta on the nose?
ivory girder
"I need your memory", Dale 1972
Dale saying that makes no sense
He didn't know anything about the Lake
ivory girder
The TV could be an extracting memories machine. We get a white cube from Laura which probably is the good memory Bob had with Laura
But the egg kinda threw me off
vague imp
also ahem from the rl wiki:
Caption:Bob being arrested for the Laura's death in The White Door.
so he was a suspect i stand my case
ivory girder
We all know that
azure bay
The strange thing is that he may or may not remember that
vague imp
getting arrested is shocking
azure bay
Well in TLS we do see Dale and the police officer was following Bob
@ivory girder police man may or may not be there. & Dale seemed to belong the club in his form
ivory girder
But the real one was the one with the officer right?
vague imp
likely yes maybe the officer was just vibing somewhere else tho..XD
ivory girder
Dale literally wore a mask to avoid Bob knowing that he was following him
azure bay
That could be the future form of Dale
As it's teased in Paradox
But
The club is not real at all
He couldn't walk with a hole in his head
vague imp
Dale becoming a deer man
ivory girder
It is all altered by Mr. Owl or it's Rusty Lake with catching a fish by a bear trap
Who knows man
ivory girder
Yeah only the first play in Theatre is real right?
ivory girder
But he wanted fresh, new memories to feed the lake right?
azure bay
When?
ivory girder
I guess so
My stupid theory
You know all of the things that are extracted to become a cube is kinda new, just happened
We see the picture of the bad memories and good memories in the Mill
It's all just happened in a few years back
And also in TWD, it was just from the breakup
azure bay
(the final memoriy seems to be the very 1st encounter of Laura)
ivory girder
Yeah whatever :)
But it just all happened a few years back from the day they are extracted
Not like childhood or anything like that
The Dale one, I don't know
And also, how tf is Dale memory all over the Lake?
When was it extracted?
azure bay
I doubt Bob's memories to be ment for the lake. They are returned to Bob for some reason. & the focus was on ones about Laura
ivory girder
Because Laura is the reincarnated William?
azure bay
Maybe, but that's not a direct reason
azure bay
On 1972 she is corrupted
ivory girder
So both are half-corrupted and half-normal but Dale is more on the normal and Laura is more on the corrupted
azure bay
I can't take that statement. We need more evidence
It could be anything
I'll be honest here
I'm confused very much with half-curruption
ivory girder
Yeah I'm also pretty confused but in the game it was like that so 🤷
azure bay
I choose to be very careful with believing what I see
ivory girder
Like half of the thing we did in Theatre was not even real and Paradox didn't even happened in real life so I understand that.
azure bay
Let us return to Laura becoming human when another game on the main story releases. Agree?
ivory girder
Did the Cube Escape end or not? I don't know but I remember seeing somewhere in the Internet saying that Paradox is the last one?
I know it's not #🤔｜theories
azure bay
It could be, but the story is not finished yet
azure bay
We're yet to see Dale reaching the hotel at last
astral frost
Little note I want to add: Theatre's cube is not fixed like Birthday's one
I think it's more like a way for Mr Owl to communicate with Dale during his travel to enlightenment
In fact in the ending we only see Dale in the elevator
Not a black cube turning into a white one
azure bay
Not a black cube turning into a white one
@astral frost I guess that's because of different purpose of Theatre
it's a samsara lesson, not the substance rebalance
astral frost
I think it's more like a way for Mr Owl to communicate with Dale during his travel to enlightenment
this
yep
btw the only fixed memory we saw are Season's ones and Birthday one
and they both involve the blue cube
azure bay
but do u still agree that there was real theatre & Dale visited it once?
astral frost
but do u still agree that there was real theatre & Dale visited it once?
@azure bay yes
azure bay
btw the only fixed memory we saw are Season's ones and Birthday one
@astral frost what do u exactly mean by fixed?
astral frost
Turning a black cube into a white one
modifying a traumatic memory in order to make it as wished
azure bay
so what does indicate the fixation?
vague imp
the memory becoming "happier" imho but that's how i understand it
astral frost
At least this is what happened in Season and Birthday
yes
Maybe this assumption will become wrong with future games
astral frost
Yes, it's described as a "balancing"
azure bay
five stages of grief n all that
@vague imp that's only one version. We should consier the others as well
azure bay
glad we find an agreement here :з
ivory girder
So the altered Theatre is the latest moment in Dale's journey?
azure bay
as far as I can see, yes
astral frost
It is also possible Dale re-lived other memories
But the 2 memories we saw are the most important ones
ivory girder
But again, what happened to the golden cube?
azure bay
I think it was not devised back at the moment & devs did not want to add it to the updated games
vague imp
ig he still has it..XD?
azure bay
we either just don't see it or Dale gave it in some crazy way to Mr. Bat
ivory girder
So they just didn't do that to spoil upcoming events or they just keep on updated the plot and when they made Theatre they didn't think about the golden cube?
astral frost
yes
azure bay
my guess is the 2nd one
astral frost
it's understandble after all
vague imp
sometimes retcons happen
astral frost
and I don't consider it as a big plot error
ivory girder
Yeah just kinda still curious about that. Or something happened between them and we don't know about it yet 🙂
"them" means Paradox and Birthday.
azure bay
I feel like we're not getting any new elevator stop :c
astral frost
I feel like we're not getting any new elevator stop :c
@azure bay I hope so
I want to see Dale's transformation
And Mr Owl becoming a fish :p
ivory girder
🙂
azure bay
I want to see Dale's transformation
@astral frost this one is expected
vague imp
Wasn't Dale confirmed do have a phobia of fish?
ivory girder
Yeah he probably became Mr. Deer 2 🙂
azure bay
but not any new non-final stop
Wasn't Dale confirmed do have a phobia of fish?
@vague imp he was if we believe his file
ivory girder
Reaching the hotel is probably the end of the whole series, I think.
hollow comet
"them" means Paradox and Birthday.
I believe Birthday happened before Paradox. Seeing as Paradox was the final 'test' and no more bits of memory were shown, I don't think anything happened
azure bay
I believe Birthday happened before Paradox. Seeing as Paradox was the final 'test' and no more bits of memory were shown, I don't think anything happened
@hollow comet I feel I need to repeat myself
hollow comet
no need, I remember our last conversation
ivory girder
yeah i was about to say that
astral frost
sorry but it's too funny
ivory girder
Mr. Fish
hollow comet
I think it's just a representation, he has to become an animal but not necessarily a fish?
did that bit to scare Dale prob
azure bay
no need, I remember our last conversation
@hollow comet ok then. Just my guess: Paradox is the test before the journey, BD is the step on the journey (the past-substance balancing one). The indicator - the massacre is expected to be canceled in Dale's past mind if Paradox is after
ivory girder
I just remember Mr. Owl and Mr. Crow said they need Dale and Laura for the full elixir, so probably Owl still wants to be the ruler and all he said to Dale is a lie?
hollow comet
as I said, I remember what you said. I don't agree with it 
azure bay
I just need to be sure
thx for understanding
I just remember Mr. Owl and Mr. Crow said they need Dale and Laura for the full elixir, so probably Owl still wants to be the ruler and all he said to Dale is a lie?
@ivory girder or just another retcon
ivory girder
Hmm
ivory girder
Cave happened before Paradox
astral frost
where the golden cube was introduced
hollow raptor
maybe he also tries for both?
like he wants the full elixir, but if that one doesn't work out he wants Dale as his successor?
astral frost
so it can't be an error
hollow comet
there's certainly more people that have gone through the test though
I wonder what happened to them
azure bay
there's certainly more people that have gone through the test though
@hollow comet probably not. Dale was seen in the prophecy
hollow comet
the past can be altered to their needs
ivory girder
It's my bedtime. Goodbye bros.
azure bay
gn
the past can be altered to their needs
@hollow comet wait, just for the record. Do you believe in actually changing the past or just the memories?
hollow comet
I think the past can be changed through memories
azure bay
ok. I tend to think the same. Just let's bare in mind that many disagree with 2 of us
returning to BD & Paradox: do you have an exlanation for Dale still being traumatised after actually changing the past?
hollow comet
the past changes but the experience doesn't disappear completely
astral frost
returning to BD & Paradox: do you have an exlanation for Dale still being traumatised after actually changing the past?
@azure bay it could also be referred to a past analysis
azure bay
?
hollow comet
as I've said a few times before, I think in the RL universe, the self-consistency principle does not hold
so either you've got multiple timelines or a single timeline with people remembering different versions of it
I prefer multiple timelines
it could also be referred to a past analysis
they mean that it could've simply been an old report
occam's razor
good practice
azure bay
I prefer multiple timelines
@hollow comet same here. Just yet to find strong evidence in their favour
occam's razor
@hollow comet this instrument is not universal
espesially in RL
hollow comet
who says philosophy is universal? 
ivory girder
Well it's pretty quiet here today.
azure bay
noone is asking questions or offers theories
quick birch
hey guys I didnt played THE WHITE DOOR yet.But I knw the game a little bit so if things Im gonna write wrong tell me the true one
I think bob(Laura's ex) is corrupted soul
that we always see
azure bay
there are multiple CS
azure bay
There is no evidence in TWD of Bob killing Laura. The story is not about her death but Bob's grief
azure bay
I mean who killed Laura in PARADX
have you played chapter 2?
azure bay
yes
then you should know that at least in Paradox that's ||Dale|| who kills Laura
I guess, that was the meaning of paradox
||2 Dales|| cannot normally see each other
azure bay
not quite
the paradox could be transmitted on the reality. There is a possibility even though many prefer to ignore it completely
You may think as you like
just remember that there is no strong enough evidence on the topic
azure bay
he was suspected
quick birch
ok
quick birch
I'll check
azure bay
you can also find it in TWD, but the circumstances are a bit strange, so I'm not sure what it really means
quick birch
"False accusations"
Robert hill and bob
azure bay
the same
quick birch
yes
This can be real name of the corruptrd soul ;BOB
I wonder how can a soul kill a person
quick birch
Maybe yes Maybe no
azure bay
make a decision c:
quick birch
Yes
azure bay
did you finish The Cave?
quick birch
yep
azure bay
then the 1st known victim is Laura. Many times we've seen CS literally using a knife on her, but I tend to believe her memories in The Cave. She did it by her own hands but a CS is also seen there. I guess that CS controled her. The question is whether it belonged to herself or someone else.
quick birch
What about this? Corr. soul arrives Robert dissapears
quick birch
then the 1st known victim is Laura. Many times we've seen CS literally using a k...
It can be Also true
azure bay
this case is quite clear
death by hanging
the soul here definitely belongs to Bob
but that does not necesseraly mean that it has traveled to Laura
quick birch
But Bob=CS is clear now isn't it?
azure bay
but also Laura=CS
Dale=Cs
every hotel guest=CS
CS is not a unique creature
it's a form of existence
there are humans
there are animals
there are ones like Crow & Owl
& there are CS
More like great-great-granduncle
quick birch
ok
azure bay
at least he would be in a human form
cause technically his tranmutation can be percieved as a rebirth
but as long as he identifies himself as the same person & even calls William's CS a brother, he could also relate himself to Laura
azure bay
you should play Paradise
azure bay
u're welcome 😀
quick birch
😄 thx
chrome iron
does anyone know the age of Robert hill ??
hollow comet
He's 41 years old in 1972
chrome iron
@hollow comet oh thanks
frigid nova
then the 1st known victim is Laura. Many times we've seen CS literally using a k...
Isn't it Dale's soul?
azure bay
It's complicated
in RL a word 'soul' may have a different meaning
CS are occupying the whole segment of the samsara wheel
that could mean that they are independent creatures
astral frost
In other words, soul isn't something which lives inside Humans.
In fact, in RL universe, people BECOME souls when they die, for example.
vague imp
The black monster I was wondering what that was I thought it was the detective’s corrupted soul that steals the memories (aka cubes)???
azure bay
The black monster I was wondering what that was I thought it was the detective’s...
there are many CS. Dale's one is confirmed to show out in Paradox only. & I don't think they are stealing cubes.
azure bay
In other words, soul isn't something which lives inside Humans.
In fact, in RL ...
I'm not too sure about that. For example, a CS comes out Laura time to time. It may or may not be hers in The Cave (as we clearly see it happening there).
astral frost
Yes, Laura is a case apart indeed
azure bay
Plus, I can see some similarities between CS & Twin Peaks doppelgangers, but I don't know much yet
I've heard that they may not exist аlongside the person they are impersonating
but in mirror reflection only
Dale's case in Paradox looks like that
& Bob's one in TWD suits the description
(except for the mirror)
but either way I don't really understand why Laura's CS would kill her if it wants to roll it back afterwards
vague imp
Ahh ok thanks anyway
astral frost
In Twin Peaks Doppelgangers exists simultaneously with the corresponding person
And, also, many Doppelgangers of the same person exist
So I think it isn't so similar to Rusty Lake
onyx nacelle
my thought with Laura's CS is that it is William himself
hollow comet
r/technicallythetruth because ||Laura is William||
astral frost
We should also consider all the representations of Laura's death btw