🤔｜theories

[azure bay]

"I'll give you a hand with other endeavors or ours when I'm done with this task of high priority"

And then you will take it from there

The rope and the storm are different matters nevertheless

Not having a rope looks like gameplay indeed

Using weather to power a machine and having to use magic when it's not in their favor seems legit

[carmine field]

Theatre has to fit somewhere on this

What leaves me in doubt is Mr. Crow's sewn-up mouth, something we don't see in Theatre

[vivid bridge]

After Crow said that line about not being able to live with and without women, the mill lady sew his mouth shut

#feministmoment

[visual coral]

as she should💅

[honest brook]

That is exactly what I am saying.

[azure bay]

But that doesn't require such a wait for Laura.

that would make sense if they'd got her recently. But it's been 10 months according to you

Owl wasn't likely curating Dale 24/7 for all 10 of them

they could do it earlier

and even if not, a natural storm would show up eventually

[pine oak]

But in contrary to his brother, at least he had a rizz

As a guy who lives over a century 💀

[royal notch]

To be fair, poor Will never had a chance.

[vivid bridge]

you don't know that

if mill lady isn't an asura then aldous only met her after becoming Mr. Crow

meanwhile William might have had a whole harem before he died

we don't know

[rancid slate]

William gave birth to the Hill, Reiziger, White and Vandermeer family

[vivid bridge]

william fathered the human race

something something time travel

[azure bay]

Actually, there was a theory more or less like that about Harvey

Or... I can barely call that a theory

It was before the SR remake

[lost thorn]

Sorry but I'm not sure I follow

[azure bay]

Since the protagonist in OG is a bird, he has to be Harvey

Therefore Harvey is bodhisattva

(the one who came back from Nirvana to help enlighten others)

[carmine field]

Buddha Harvey

[azure bay]

And therefore he can be a father for:

• Nikolas and Gerard
• James
• Frank

The reasoning is so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin

[lost thorn]

Yeah

[alpine hollow]

I was searching rusty lake images on Pinterest and then I realized I probably forgot the most basic event of the lore. Talking about Laura death, since paradox only happens on dales mind, who was the corrupted soul that killed Laura exactly?

[visual coral]

According to the memory in the Cave Laura killed herself. The CS was probably her own too

[azure bay]

and UB gave the reason why she killed herself

nothing overly supernatural and I like it

[alpine hollow]

I'll play again the game, thanks :D

[lost thorn]

Laura herself

I believe the event that happened in seasons was more or less symbolic (and also to add a sense of mystery for the grand reveal since it was the first game in the series)
But everything after that shows it was she who committed suicide

[lost thorn]

I don't quite remember that
I believe the reason was depression because of how her life was spent alone?

[azure bay]

how she felt abandoned by Rose

[lost thorn]

I remember that seasons had a note saying she's afraid she's going to do something bad
And that she was taking Prozac

[lost thorn]

Yeah so it is loneliness

[azure bay]

not exactly

[lost thorn]

I know

[azure bay]

also trust issues, I reckon

[lost thorn]

She felt depressed because her mother left her

[rancid slate]

Many small reasons too

[lost thorn]

She wasn't paranoid though

[azure bay]

she pushed Bob away with the same wording Rose did

"we need to go our own path"

[rancid slate]

Both follow

[lost thorn]

Okay I concede
I'll revisit underground blossom

[lost thorn]

I remember her saying something else in The white door

[azure bay]

yes

that what happened in reality

[lost thorn]

I'd take Bob's memory over underground blossom

[azure bay]

but the metaphor may have put her thoughts into words

[lost thorn]

Given how underground blossom plays out almost as a Greek play

You're seeing dramatized snippets of her life

[rancid slate]

You can also consider the letter in Theatre

All three messages are basically the same in different words

[lost thorn]

Yeah it was similar enough

I genuinely think her relationship with bob did her more harm than good

Had she not dated bob, she wouldn't have had to live with the fear of someone else important walking out on her

And that destroyed bob and made him depressed too

[azure bay]

I guess

[lost thorn]

I'm not a psychologist to know though heh

[rancid slate]

meanwhile Harvey there just watching

[lost thorn]

But honestly where does underground blossom take place

And I don't mean the metaphor and symbolism

[rancid slate]

I wonder if they are still going to actually explore Laura and Bob relationship

[lost thorn]

I mean what contraption allows for someone to revisit old memories in the form of a train

[rancid slate]

It doesnt

Its rather a metaphor

[azure bay]

just a metaphor

[lost thorn]

We know that the machine in the white cube allows paradox to happen
We know the cubes allow you to revisit memories

[azure bay]

a metaphor of Laura's life

[rancid slate]

The metro, as far as we know, isnt real

[lost thorn]

I beg to differ

[rancid slate]

None of the memories were changed tho, there were no cubes

[lost thorn]

After laura turns to a tree (symbolic I know but I mean this is where her story ends) harvey still continues to ride the train

[rancid slate]

She didnt turned into a tree

[lost thorn]

Meaning that even after Laura's story concluded, harvey is still there

[lost thorn]

You might have missed the brackets😅

[rancid slate]

Its not symbolic too

The Roses literally turned into a tree

[lost thorn]

Oh my bad

That's a mistake on my part

[rancid slate]

Id say the blossom has more chances of being symbolic

[lost thorn]

Still what I mean is after she reached the end, the story with harvey continued

[azure bay]

These are not cubes, Harvey changes nothing and he doesn't even act like a time traveler. He doesn't even see the thief coming.

These are no simulation orchestrated by Mr. Owl. Laura was resurrected with Rose's help and she is Owl's blind spot.

These are supposed to be real events depicted in a roundabout way

[lost thorn]

Harvey even talked with Mr. Owl in that train

[rancid slate]

1972 Mr. Owl

[azure bay]

actually

[lost thorn]

I believe because mr owl was wearing his diver attire that the place where it's taking place is underwater

[rancid slate]

Maybe 1935?

[azure bay]

no, I'm talking in general

[lost thorn]

Yet at the end Harvey was given a free roam access to all those points in time
Even branching and creating one on his own

[azure bay]

time travel and even beyond Laura's perspective

@lost thorn I love lore debates but right now I don't feel like explaining everything Underground Blossom in details especially after having posted a long theory video about all that 2 days ago.

May I suggest you watching it with some popcorn?

[lost thorn]

It reminds me of how you go about different events in roots
But also the interaction with different stations is akin to seasons

[azure bay]

they may look similar but the substance is different

Seasons is a memory cube with the goal of changing it

[lost thorn]

Sorry but I'll have to pass you up on that

[azure bay]

UB changes nothing

[rancid slate]

Could be, could be

[azure bay]

it's just Laura's life through a lens of metro

• some side adventures for Harvey

[lost thorn]

Obviously I am aware of that
I am not saying the two are the same
However you go about different stations and require certain knowledge from the past or future stations to make changes

[azure bay]

nope

you just go there and live through them

[lost thorn]

I don't think we're on the same page

[azure bay]

the time travel shenanigans happen after and they are unrelated to the main story

[rancid slate]

In Seasons, you can see the changes affecting all cubes

In UB, none affect the other

[lost thorn]

Do you remember how exactly you acquire the cubes?

[azure bay]

it's unrelated to Laura's life

[lost thorn]

The ones with symbols, shown before at paradox

[azure bay]

it's a different task

[lost thorn]

That's my point!

[lost thorn]

Exactly!

[azure bay]

and it doesn't make it simulation of Laura's memories

[lost thorn]

This

[lost thorn]

I didn't necessarily say that or rule it out

[azure bay]

so? what's your message?

[lost thorn]

This is

[azure bay]

I get it but why are you telling that?

what are you trying to prove?

[lost thorn]

Because that's my question in the first place...

[azure bay]

ok, please repeat it then

the question

[lost thorn]

Alright

Regardless whether Laura's story on that train was a metaphor or something else
We know that the train itself is capable of more than just revisiting different points in time

Let's put Laura's story out of the equation

How was harvey, who after completed the task of looking over Laura, capable to gather the cubes after all that was said and done

He must have had to have an element of time travel adjacent to the one in seasons for him to be able to alter the past to gather the cubes

That's why I believe that even if Laura's story was truly a metaphor on that train, the "train" itself isn't and is an actual contraption in rusty lake

[azure bay]

I don't think it's about the train. The train represents the flow of time.

I do think Harvey somehow time travels after finishing with Laura and that's not the 1st time we suspect that.

But the mechanism of time travel could be whatever but an actual train. Because the train makes no sense within the universe. An elevator with cubes does, a matrix-like simulation does but a train doesn't.

Too costly, too inflexible, there are better alternatives.

My best guess, Harvey simply got access to the lake's multiverse of cubes after Laura took him there

or some other abilities

or he always had them but didn't use while working on Laura

[honest brook]

A similar thing happens in Roots, after completing the game, you unlock the ability to re-enter the large portraits to collect the golden emblems, yet I don't feel that that's time travel

[rancid slate]

Quick theory

Harvey's future could simply be 1935

Lets consider the Metro as sort of real. But also still considering that no changes are made. As if you could go back and forth, but not actually change events. Like some kind of simulation, but not entirely

(Nowhere) I know that Mr. Owl seems to be against Albert, but imooo I have seen no evidences for this rivality, so for this theory I will consider that Mr. Owl is somehow ok with the whole Rose and Albert thing

Also considering the Menu, the roadmap and Mr. Owl's letter as canon. The Menu is present in the roadmap way before Crib Station, which could imply its in the past, distant or not

And yeah, I am so using this theory to justify Asura Harvey

Soo, probably before 1894, Harvey goes in some kind of "test" or "simulation". AND POSSIBLY POSSIBLY the White Cube from Hotel is related to it (Or atleast the elevator scene)

Oh yeah, and also considering the blossom at the beggining of the game, its also possible that Harvey saw Laura's blossom, and his future is the beggining of the game (if you know what I mean) which.. also suggests some kind of time loop. But they were at the lake thoo

Meeting Mr. Owl at the Lake, he tells us to collect all cubes in all stations, which (Considering it as not just gameplay) implies Mr. Owl (at that point of his life, whenever he's from) knows about "it" (UB/Possibly the events, including Rose and Albert) and after doing it, he gives you the shrimp which is used to go to RL, in 1935, most likely.

This slightly implies that UB Harvey's future is whatever comes after the Menu. "Welcome back, Harvey" also implies Harvey was in some way "missing". Of course, still considering what I said earlier, Harvey is still inside the metro thing which would mean that is somehow "not real", but Ig this theory also suggest two Harveys if you exclude the metro not being real

This is all I have to say, for now

[azure bay]

UB is different since it has actual story hooks acknowledging the present but taking place in the past

[honest brook]

Do you mean Mr. Owl's letter?

[azure bay]

yes and Harvey eventually going back to 1935

basically "congrats with Laura but I'll need your help last week"

[azure bay]

I know that Mr. Owl seems to be against Albert, but imooo I have seen no evidences for this rivality, so for this theory I will consider that Mr. Owl is somehow ok with the whole Rose and Albert thing
Mark my word. Albert will be a thorn in everyone's side and nobody will be happy about it

He's a walking recipe for disaster with questionable profits for Owl

He already killed Owl's employee

[lost thorn]

I mentioned that similarity
But a huge difference is that those events are self contained, meaning you don't need to enter another portrait to know the answer of the one you're currently in. No, you enter one, you complete it and then you exit it after you get the golden emblem
It's very self contained
And furthermore those golden emblems unlock a hidden memory from the past, it's there to let us know of what t transpired before James inherited the mansion, with nothing indicating something had been fixed or changed

On the other hand, seasons (and underground blossom as well) incorporate having to go to different time periods to solve something from another time period, in other words
They require either both foresight and hindsight to solve a puzzle

[azure bay]

Also even though I'm not sure but the whole cube gathering section could be just a gameplay prelude for the actual time travel in the hotel ending.

It may be not even real, considering how the game acts in general

[honest brook]

No, you do use information from one level to get the golden emblem of another level. And after collecting the cubes, we similarly unlock a post-game scene that shows what happened earlier on, like the alchemy level.

[azure bay]

I'd prefer it to be canon but since we don't understand what it does, it could be nothing

[lost thorn]

Mr owl has his face on the bills, alongside a hotel and and multi million corporation and ventures that run or at least have influence internationally
I believe he's gotten too rich to consider cost in his plan.... The train runs through time and if I'm being relative, everything is small and flexible enough compared to the infinite fabric of time
I'd say mr owl has a lot of space, or dare I say alot of spacetime (bad pun ignore that)
Also while writing this, I realized that mr owl also has a magical lake that can manage the complex details, all mr owl would have to worry about is the cost to build the physical contraption and the rest can be powered by the lake

[lost thorn]

The hotel ending shows what happens in the future
It's important to focus on what mr owl said
He said it was the key to the future
A key acts as a means to pass through something
So the cube itself could be the key to time travel but there is no concrete proof that they did indeed travel at the end of hotel, rather it could be showing them the way to ensure that future

[lost thorn]

Ah
It appears I was wrong again

This is happening an awful lot lately 😅

[azure bay]

(a bit beyond the point but Rusty Money are just a placeholder)

you don't become or at least stay rich if you waste your money when there are cheaper solutions.

And I must underline that Owl had no complete control over Laura's story. And none in the end when it comes to Rose and Laura uses her own black train with no Crow conductor

The subway isn't real, nor the trains. They are simply a metaphor about Laura's life and the devs are open about it.

Harvey does somehow time travel in the end but it has nothing to do with trains

forget about them

[lost thorn]

However in roots it's still all done to unlock a hidden scene in the past, but it's not meant to alter anything
Meanwhile in UB you use to continue forward

There is also an excuse for William too
Given that he's a soul and was trapped in a room outside of time

[lost thorn]

Yet it still shows that he's boarding a train

[azure bay]

Of course! Because it's all a metaphor. The game has to be internally consistent

[honest brook]

I don't see how the Hotel station means that there's time travel, can you explain?

[azure bay]

Bob, Rose and a bunch of Johnsson employees board trains too. Are you telling me they time travel too for Owl?

[lost thorn]

Again I can meet with you there
The game is a metaphor of Laura's life
But after laura is gone you still travel through the train
That's where we differ

In other words

What's the golden train

How did harvey go to the hotel, to the lab and to best kept memories when all those have nothing to do with Laura's story that was presented in the game

[azure bay]

The stations are arranged in chronological order. Owl acknowledges Harvey helping Laura in 1972 or 1981 (doesn't matter here) and asks him to go back to 1935 to help with his side of the plan

[lost thorn]

No because one important detail that you glanced over was the fact that harvey inherits the ability to time travel (the map) after all that was said and done
And in the entirety of that event has harvey flying solo

But that ability is still done through a train

[honest brook]

Oh, when he said "so we will meet again"?

[azure bay]

yeah

[lost thorn]

Maybe the train itself is something mr owl can't control or isn't his own contraption, or maybe there are elements he can't fully control
But he can still have a cabache of sorts on them
Because we know at the least that he had harvey working for him to look after Laura

[honest brook]

That's interesting, I hadn't thought of it in that sense

[azure bay]

the game will be internally consistent no matter what. It will use trains no matter if they are real or not.

Then, they weren't real in Laura's story and they won't suddenly become real later on. Underground Blossom has discredited itself.

And the trains don't even make sense. There are so many better canonical ways to time travel. There are memory cubes, there are blue cubes.

And we have other cases of Harvey possibly time traveling. Bringing Frank Emma's letter through time, bringing Laura a flower through time, possibly going back to Paradise.

Do we see a train in any of them? No. Will we ever? I won't believe it until I see that. UB isn't credible enough on its own. Nothing should be taken from there without external confirmations.

UB is false until proven true

[lost thorn]

So you're saying harvey has to be seen in the train for the sake of the game to be thematically consistent?

[azure bay]

yes and also it takes too much extra resources to develop different systems simply for post-game content especially for a game no one is even supposed to take at face value.

And UB was quite rushed

[rancid slate]

You still can do theories tho

[lost thorn]

Yeah I know that.

[rancid slate]

Seasons is false until proven true 🗣

[azure bay]

Seasons at least have a place inside the universe

[rancid slate]

What do u think about the blossom in UB intro?

[azure bay]

you mean flowers flying there?

[rancid slate]

Yeah

[azure bay]

a beautiful image to back the title screen

we are in the underground and here's blossom

If I were forced to go in-lore, I'd say it might mean the timelessness of the lake and Rose blooming there

but the artistic choice seems more plausible

[lost thorn]

I'm going to have to disagree with you

Allow me to explain.
Harvey's solo adventure is not part of Laura's story, so it could've been thematically on point to ditch the train towards the end.
Picture it like this : harvey stays on the train throughout the entirety of Laura's story because he's merely a passenger observing Laura in her story
But right when her story ends, harvey's task starts and no longer is he obligated to ride the train and can now travel in time, because he no longer is a passenger aboard Laura's metaphorical train snd stations, its his own story now
So in-game that can work by not showing a train and by just showing a black screen whenever harvey chooses to travel through time
It can remain thematically on point still.
So that's why I choose to believe that him riding the train isn't solely a thematic decision (important part here) after the section with Laura's story ends

But that's not the sole reason I'm basing it on, when harvey is meant to travel to the hotel, he goes through a golden train first
There could've been different methods to show him going there,
For instance it could've been an elevator... We've already seen an elevator being used to go to certain places in the lake
(an example of this is paradox where all endings showed dale going to meet Laura but the fourth ending breaks the pattern and shows him going up through an elevator to the hotel)
But they specifically chose a train, and a different color too to go to the hotel
That's why I believe that even if the trains aren't physical or literal, I still believe there's more to them than metaphors...

... We've also seen different methods for the same result happen
Just because we've seen time travel happen in a specific way doesn't exclude time travel happening in a different way
And I hate to be that guy but.... Just because you can't prove it is a thing, you can't conclude that it isn't

[honest brook]

I don't know, since the levels are train stations, it feels like it still makes sense to travel between them using a train

[lost thorn]

How would you explain the golden train?

[royal notch]

A metaphor for the real elevator. Its responsible is Mr Bat too.

[rancid slate]

Mr Bat was rather just the ticket guy

Seller

[royal notch]

And in fact he's the elevator operator!

[rancid slate]

I think anyone can push buttons in an elevator

[royal notch]

Me too. So? Do we fire the poor guy?

[honest brook]

I suppose to show that it's different

[rancid slate]

We have the brown train, BKM train, gray train, black train and Golden train

[honest brook]

The brown train might be like it represents Laura

[lost thorn]

Why do we need a metaphor for an elevator when it's no longer Laura's story

[honest brook]

While the golden one shows that it's less related to Laura

[lost thorn]

Isn't the point of the stations to he metaphors for Laura's life?

[azure bay]

Underground Blossom is a metaphorical mess in more than 1 way.

By default we have no justifification to believe any of it. Just take it and hope that 1 day you'll see a time traveling train in a literal game.

But I'm ready to bet money that you won't

[lost thorn]

There would be no point for a train if it's not about Laura
Harvey's arrival to the hotel isn't and yet you need a golden train

[honest brook]

Yes, so I guess that's why it's a different train for a station that represents something different

[lost thorn]

Yes! Perhaps something under the control of mr owl

[rancid slate]

All levels are sepparated by metro stations

Ofc its gonna through a train

Like

In the game called

Underground Blossom

We dont use a car to go to the BKM and Lab stations

[azure bay]

These are just excuses. Do you have evidence?

[rancid slate]

The main game is Laura's story
Trains are just an element of the underground, not from Laura's story

[honest brook]

Yeah, it's not exactly like we see Laura herself being closely related to trains, it's the mechanic of the game, that we move through the areas by using trains

[azure bay]

Or Harvey and Owl, for that matter

[lost thorn]

And all endings in paradox tend to be about dale arriving to Laura outside, and yet the fourth secret ending didn't show it
The theme of the game shouldn't be the only factor when you're going to show and alternate secret ending that's supposed to reveal additional lore to the game
An elevator would have done the job all the same

[azure bay]

Paradox is a different matter 2 secret endings are about escaping the loop

[lost thorn]

That's lame considering you were also arguing without proof

[royal notch]

You're forgetting the green vial.

[honest brook]

In the green vial ending, we also see Laura standing at the lake at the end

[royal notch]

They failed to meet.

[lost thorn]

And the hidden ending has you go to rusty lake hotel and leaving the station altogether

[rancid slate]

The two endings of TWD are in Bob's dream, but the basement sequence isn't. What about it?

Extra content, all extra stations are extra content, not endings. There's only one ending in UB

[azure bay]

The burden of proof is on the claiming party.

[lost thorn]

It still showed a minigame where he was trying to reach her
The fourth ending is different from all of them

[lost thorn]

Again I can say the same
I asked the original question first and you never showed proof outside your theories

[rancid slate]

The elevator makes sense in Paradox since we know Dale is in the depths of the Lake, close to the Elevator. But not in UB, Harvey was not there, therefore, he doesnt use it

[lost thorn]

I mentioned towards the end how just because you can't prove it doesn't mean you can conclude it's not.

[azure bay]

If you go that way, we've seen Rusty Lake so many times and there was never a train

It's still false

[lost thorn]

But we do know that the train stations are at least underneath the lake
Mr owl was wearing his diver suit

[lost thorn]

We never saw the entirety of the lake.

[royal notch]

Dude, where did Laura die?

[lost thorn]

... What difference would that make?

[azure bay]

We see big portions of landscape both on the close and the far shores. Not a single trace. Let it go

[rancid slate]

There's still no evidence about the train stations being real too

[lost thorn]

So it's an extra content and not an ending
It still doesn't change my point

[lost thorn]

In her house?

[honest brook]

Yes, so the stations aren't actual places, they represents event that happened elsewhere

[lost thorn]

Please don't tell me what to do...

[rancid slate]

You compared Paradox endings to UB, so I compared TWD's

The devs have never been consistent with some elements of their games, so dont expect a pattern. They are always trying different things and experiments

[royal notch]

What about Sorrow Cross, then?

Real or not?

[floral mauve]

I would say not, more of metaphor

[royal notch]

Get a cookie!

[floral mauve]

though the part where Bob left her might be true

[honest brook]

So I wouldn't say all of the stations are just underneath the Lake

[azure bay]

Underground Blossom has proven itself as a shit source of evidence. If it lies to you about how Laura broke up with Bob and died it can lie about everything else.

So there's no solid proof of the train until we get it in a better game

[rancid slate]

Its only real if they changed clothes between the Owl Nest and Metro

[lost thorn]

But the comparison wasn't in regards to it being an ending or not
It's in regards to additional content having a something different being done
I.e breaking out of the loop in paradox' case
And similarly there could've been an elevator towards the end of UB

[floral mauve]

its reasonable way to separate I suppose

[floral mauve]

trueee actually

you cooked

[floral mauve]

breakup xxoo

[rancid slate]

"Baby, lets change clothes so we can say bye again"

[lost thorn]

I'm well aware
I've never denied it being a metaphor
All I'm saying is that there can be more to the trains then just a representation of the flow of time

[lost thorn]

We do in fact know that Laura's memories were dumped to the lake
So who knows what have happened

[azure bay]

It doesn't, really. The devs do whatever they feel like.

[lost thorn]

And you're entitled to believe that but please don't tell me to let my wish to discuss it to go.

[rancid slate]

Alchemy train

[lost thorn]

That's a meta reason to explain it I suppose..
I still think the golden train isn't a mere symbolism to the passage of time

[azure bay]

Just know that your theory has objectively no good evidence until further notice.

[azure bay]

It may symbolize whatever but us seeing it in UB won't make it automatically real

[rancid slate]

I do agree that it still being a metro station is kinda "eehh"

Atleast a metro station that close to the lake

Wouldve better if it was distant

Like, after the Vanderboom house

[lost thorn]

I'm sorry but your arguments also didn't provide concrete proof
You told me that the rusty lake money was a placeholder for example, how do you know that for sure?

[floral mauve]

spicy

[rancid slate]

Nowhere secretly is a Rusty Lake dev

Thats how he knows it

[covert wyvern]

He isn't.

[rancid slate]

😔

[floral mauve]

Hi Damy

[lost thorn]

Hi damy!

[azure bay]

Again, the burden of proof is on you as the claiming party.

It's you who's claiming that a game that is adviced against being taken literally suddenly changes its ways and tells truth. It doesn't fit the internal pattern, it requires extra effort on the dev's behalf. With the current info it goes against Occam's razor and requires further evidence.

The game is unteliable. The most unteliable game in the series. By default everything is false until proven otherwise

[lost thorn]

I just think that since mr owl was wearing his diver suit, and one of the trains leads to the hotel, and they're also able to travel through time
I believe that these are reasons enough for the train to be inside the lake

[lost thorn]

One small detail you might have overlooked.... I didn't suggest the money was placeholder

[azure bay]

Do you really want to go into that rabbit hole?

I don't mind but are you ready?

[lost thorn]

.

[azure bay]

By UB standards that means only that Harvey and Owl were in the lake and I still have doubts since the diving suit could be just The Cave reference leading to its sudden epilogue

[lost thorn]

I'd say so

Because I'm rather led to believe that the ending where mr owl talks about the day of the lake isn't a metaphor

[rancid slate]

Its rather a meta teaser or weird lore event

[azure bay]

That particular part isn't even by UB standards.

UB structure is general story points with a lot of fluff like gameplay and allegories

[lost thorn]

That's what my entire discussion hinges on
The latter part that is

[azure bay]

Dialogues are true or mostly true

But the rest is highly debatable

[lost thorn]

Right
So the golden train should also be different.

[rancid slate]

I think we can talk about without the golden train

[azure bay]

No, it's not a story point. It's not a character, not a dialogue, not a note, not a McGuffin

It's more like other trains

[lost thorn]

But it's the golden train that interests me the most
So far I'm in agreement that the game is a metaphor
That all of it is symbolic
.... All of it except the post game secrets
And that's why the golden train is the most dire in my debate

[rancid slate]

It couldve been the Golden Cube invitation instead of a golden ticket 🥺

[floral mauve]

this is quite uncetain, like for both side, could be metaphor, could be of an actual day, even in the new announcements stuff

[honest brook]

I mean, of course, the Day of the Lake is an actual in-universe event

[floral mauve]

event or actual day or what excatly it is

[rancid slate]

Taking the train = Harvey is going somewhere else
Golden = special, so the player gets hyped to see where they are going

[lost thorn]

And yet it was a different color
I'd say it's notable

[floral mauve]

its uncertain

[honest brook]

It's the day where the next ruler of the lake is chosen

[lost thorn]

The elevator could've done the exact same effect

[floral mauve]

you sure? elaborate for me

[rancid slate]

Elevator goes up and down

[azure bay]

Chances are, because it's a cool secret train. Like BKM train that leads us to The Lab and the distr center

[rancid slate]

If we went up, then we would be inside the Hotel

And I dont think the devs have the sprites done for it

Its literally just a gray and black place in-game

[floral mauve]

typical hidden ending in RL style

[rancid slate]

Not even a wallpaper

[azure bay]

@lost thorn for real, there are so many trains there and post-game they all do the same thing. The golden one isn't that special

[honest brook]

Well, Mr. Owl says that he needs a successor for the ruler of the lake in Paradox, in Paradise, we see that this happens on the Day of the Lake

[lost thorn]

I can get behind the bkm train
But the golden color was a point of focus for many game such as the cave and the past within

[azure bay]

It's subjective

[rancid slate]

☝️

[lost thorn]

And again
The same could be done with an elevator

[rancid slate]

The Day of the Lake is the most anticipated event

[azure bay]

It may be golden only because The Day of The Lake will have Dale's golden cube

[rancid slate]

Why

[lost thorn]

Because we've seen it before
And we've grown to associate it with rusty lake

[rancid slate]

Not to Rusty Lake

To the Hotel

[lost thorn]

And it breaks the whole train metaphor thing

[rancid slate]

Cabin, Big White Cube

[lost thorn]

The cabin also had one.

[rancid slate]

We only have two elevators

And both go to the same place

[lost thorn]

No.
The hotel led down to the cube
But the cabin led down to the lake where dale had to journey until thw white cube

[floral mauve]

I would argue that the day of the lake is not necessarily for the successor, according to Nicolas, he referrs to the sacrifice ritual and I dont think Owl´s big master plan calling the day of the lake is just to settle Dale.

True you could say he will have further preparation for him in hotel after elevator but there are slightly less evidence support for this except my imagination and fan-fic thoughts

[lost thorn]

That's subjective

[rancid slate]

The Lake, where theres already a secret scene. If we rised up there too, people would think we would be in the future instead of the past.

[lost thorn]

I think mr owl has control over the trains

[floral mauve]

maybe its more of enlightenment?

[lost thorn]

To some capacity

[rancid slate]

The roadmap only works with metros

Not elevators

[lost thorn]

Since he can allow harvey to travel through them at will

[lost thorn]

But you could've added a code that makes an elevator appear

[rancid slate]

Theres a whole section of puzzles already

The devs made it a station cuz it was easier

They already had the system done

The ticket trains all work the same, its easier to reuse it

[lost thorn]

This is a game where a fish can appear after putting a fly in a mousetrap
It's not tied to realism

[rancid slate]

This was more than 10 years ago

[floral mauve]

DID I HEAR FLyING FISH

[rancid slate]

Theyve changed

[azure bay]

Here's another fact.

We've already stated a bunch of hypotheses why the golden train isn't that special. And I'm sure I can find more if I think about it.

Only 1 can be true, what makes yours better than them when they are all equally subjective and without evidence?

That's why you need it, evidence. Without it you are only justifiend not to believe anything.

Then it goes further. Let's suppose the golden train is special. Why is it suddenly special enough to be a) real, b) time traveling?

[lost thorn]

You can input a specific time and an elevator comes down
Simple as that

[rancid slate]

The elevator never worked like that

Thats just a poor solution

[lost thorn]

Uhhhh
Rusty lake isn't even ten years old just yet

[honest brook]

But the point is that the Day of the Lake is about enlightenment, so surely it must be either Dale or Laura

[rancid slate]

Got confused with another game lol

[grizzled bluff]

Quick reminder that theorizing's fun, but we gotta stay polite

[floral mauve]

Hi sammy

[lost thorn]

But sure I'll give another example
This is a game where you can grow an entire skeletal structure from one tooth
I'd say that's not realistic either

Oh hey Sammy!

[rancid slate]

Teeth are made of calcium

[grizzled bluff]

Hiya! Just know: I am always watching (and sometimes nodding along XD)

[floral mauve]

thats probably true, enlightenment still does not mean successor automatically in the traditional sense but I do partially agree its the case of UB ending, still dont feel like thats why Owl is making such a deal of, cuz most of the work should be done?

@azure bay

[azure bay]

I don't really get what you are asking

[lost thorn]

Because this is the only train that appears after harvey is able to tamper with events
Before he got the map, harvey could never go back to a prior station
That's why I believe it's unique because it can only appear after specific conditions
And its appearance was safeguard ed by a box that mr owl had besides him

[floral mauve]

is the day of the lake just to finish Laura Dale or there are some master owl big brain plan in UB

[rancid slate]

-The Day of the Lake is coming
-Oh, already??
-No, its gonna be after 37 years
-Oh.. Umm, so why did you called me?
-I missed you

And then they kiss

[floral mauve]

absolue cinema

[lost thorn]

I know that
But it's unrealistic to presume you can grow an entire skeletal structure out of it

And what about the blob that comes to life and eats a mouse?

[rancid slate]

You are comparing new things to the elevator

[azure bay]

The map and the golden train aren't connected. The golden train brings you only to the hotel and only for the 1st time. Other stations that are equally time travel have their own trains and for the 1st time only too.

In fact, when you use the map you are always riding the regular copper train

[floral mauve]

nowhere ghosted me :((((

[rancid slate]

You couldve just said that as we are in the Lake, the elevator couldve easily gone to the past

Somehow

[azure bay]

I think it's Laura/Dale but there's really a lot to do

[floral mauve]

I suppose there isnt really an answer since its so vague the lake of the lake

[rancid slate]

But weve never seen them doing it? Right?

So thats why Golden train > Elevator
We know that the trains can travel through time.

[azure bay]

@lost thorn actually the golden train doesn't even do any time travel. It brings you from one station in 1935 to another still in 1935

[rancid slate]

Thats just straight up wrong

It goes 13 seconds into the past /j

[lost thorn]

No.
I'm showing you how the game still has bizzare elements
Since you claimed that the company's games changed than those from the last decade
I'm just showing you that the same element of surrealism still exists
Please don't take my examples out of context

[floral mauve]

isnt UB like some advanced memory travel machine, like cube device but moving and past indeed got kinda changed at CS and thief part

[azure bay]

No, it's just a stageplay with train themes

[lost thorn]

According to nowhere, apparently not.

[rancid slate]

Theres that fun theory about UB being Run Harvey Run

[lost thorn]

Believe it or not straynut, that question of mine is what Kickstarted this debate

[floral mauve]

but we surely know Laura CS got on the train and we did try to change the past using golden timepiece no?

[azure bay]

Nope

[lost thorn]

I can never get farther from from the lake section of that game

[floral mauve]

never paid attention, thats basically theory channel, we eventually forgot what was the argument and got drift away into plot discussion

[azure bay]

The train part yes but everyone travels by trains there

[lost thorn]

I can see that

[floral mauve]

dont get it

[azure bay]

So yeah, @lost thorn the golden train doesn't even do time travel like its siblings from BKM and even the good ol' copper

[floral mauve]

did you explain it in your UB video or nah

[lost thorn]

I think it's something that mr owl has a control of
Sort of a cabache on the metaphorical train station

[azure bay]

I see it like Laura finding her own way to the lake without conductor Crow

[floral mauve]

I am sorry I am not your loyal subscriber my pookie

[lost thorn]

So it may as well have the ability to allow you to travel in time if the normal trains can

[floral mauve]

emmmm and?

sounds like cube device to me

partially moderated

[azure bay]

CD wasn't even about that

[floral mauve]

by crow/owl

[azure bay]

And they were nowhere to be seen then

[lost thorn]

It looks like the answer is clear here

[floral mauve]

in the mirror or they arent cannon

[lost thorn]

Underground blossom is a game that's filled to the brim with metaphors

So much so that you can't get anything concrete out of it without additional sources

So we need to see harvey arriving to the hotel in a different method

But alas this is all speculation and theory crafting built on hypothesis

[azure bay]

It still means that the golden train isn't a special magical train. No more special than any other.

[rancid slate]

The main stations atleast are metaphors

Id say the extra, while a bit silly, are closer to reality

[azure bay]

And they make the whole game untrustworthy

[lost thorn]

Maybe.

[floral mauve]

agree

[lost thorn]

I'm not excluding anything

[rancid slate]

Every new game is untrustworthy until there are more evidences

[lost thorn]

But I am going to put it into possibilities

[rancid slate]

U just gotta believe

[lost thorn]

I'd rather analyze every detail without eliminating the less likely answers

They might not be plausible
But they're not necessarily impossible

[azure bay]

There are games that don't betray our trust. Seasons are memories so no, Paradox is a dream, but Case 23, Paradise, arguably The Past Within are fine

[floral mauve]

twd???

[rancid slate]

And still you were very negative about the state of retcon in TPW

[azure bay]

A bit debatable but mostly trustworthy

[floral mauve]

I AM

[azure bay]

Imo

[lost thorn]

Oh @azure bay would the mill count as a plot hole?
It shows an event from 1971 and 1972 without any concrete indication of thwe passage of time

[azure bay]

I don't know

[lost thorn]

Wdym

[floral mauve]

not the first time

[rancid slate]

The Mill is in a metro station too

[azure bay]

Maybe time DID stop like in the story Dale read. The numbers did appear above the lake in both cases after all

I headcanon that but objectively idk

[lost thorn]

Given how the two games released back to back
Maybe

[rancid slate]

Talking to Nowhere

[azure bay]

I'm only worried that it was a retcon. We have no proof. Maybe it secretely makes sense without us knowing.

Or maybe it IS a retcon but now it's our reality. Either way the game doesn't spew symbolic nonsense

[honest brook]

Mr. Owl says, “My time is limited, Dale. I need a successor, the ruler of the Lake.”
Laura tells Dale, “One of us will die, the other will be enlightened.”
Then Caroline’s book says, “The glorious day of the lake will come - one will find death, the other enlightenment.”
It suggests that it will all be 1 event.

[floral mauve]

ye I know all of that so I guess enlightenment here is just successor

[rancid slate]

"You drink first, Laura"

[azure bay]

@lost thorn as I think about it, another problem of time train is lack of knowledge. How is it supposed to work?

I mean, lett's suppose, there's a train station at the shore. How the travel happens? Where do you go? To the same station in a different time? To a new station elsewhere? Where? Did Harvey travel from there to The Lab and other locations by himself? Did the train fly there BTTF 3 style?

[rancid slate]

Enlightenment means the change (usually "up) in the 6 realms

[honest brook]

I mean, it’s different, one of them will become enlightened so that they can be the next ruler

[floral mauve]

in RL the context is limited to human go upwards

[rancid slate]

Doesnt necessarily means all succesors were enlightened

[floral mauve]

Thats what I said

just abbreviated it a bit

Should have changed it to enlightened

mb

[rancid slate]

Aldous had to say bye to the wild west lady he met and fell in love

[azure bay]

No, he kept her locked in The Mill

[rancid slate]

[main badge]

is that her canon lore? i’ve always wondered about her

[azure bay]

No, it's us goofing around

[main badge]

what is her plot tho?

[azure bay]

She has none, she's a background character with no significance or backstory

[main badge]

oh :(

no i don’t like that

[azure bay]

Crow's wife that died

[main badge]

she’s the groundskeeper too and was very important

cuz i say so

[azure bay]

Whatever

[main badge]

yippee!

#justiceforoldwomeninthemill

[rancid slate]

She is the leader of the Rusty Lake mafia

[main badge]

oh yea!

how could i forget that

[main badge]

i should have really read the fine print to that bestkeptmemories website..

[lost thorn]

I don't want to keep answering these with the same answer because that's rather rigid on my part and I'm afraid to admit that
But harvey was able to travel from one room to a forest through a smoke coming from a pipe
And then back to that room when he received the knife from mr crow, and if we take hotel as reliable information (and why wouldn't we, it's not a dream or memory last I checked) then it concluded that you can alter space (or spacetime, it's not 100% clear if the forest was from a different point in time) even outside the lake
Then it can stand to reason that if the station was underneath the lake it might be able to do just that
I know my answer is just a lame "surreal rusty lake oddity" but I'm afraid I don't have any other specific answer, but I still think it's a valid enough answer all the same

Underground blossom is the first entry to incorporate the train stations
There's just not enough information
I can definitely see where you're coming from and I do in fact see what you're saying to an extent, even agreeing with some points
But I just don't want to put the pin on it just yet when there's other rooms and angles you can argue about and speculate on too

Fot example
We didn't know how "entering the cube" really worked until we saw the method in games such as paradise (and to a lesser extent the cave since that required the assistance of a machine)
But just because we didn't know that information beforehand does that mean the community 2015-2017 should've stopped theorizing on how the cubes worked just because of the lack of info?

When I got my friend to try the past within with me and got him to play other games, he thought you were getting literally sucked into those cubes
And while your consciousness maybe is, the truth of it is likely similar to how we Nikolas and Dale in cave were

They felt they were inside but on the outside they were sitting vulnerably

[azure bay]

Well, that scene looked more like an opium trip than some timespace anomaly.

The only weird thing is Mr. Crow visiting it and giving a knife but it's not so different to doing the same via war flashbacks or stars. I'd rather attribute it to Crow's personal abilities

[lost thorn]

.... An opium trip doesn't spawn a knife

[azure bay]

You miss the point. Trips don't but magical crows do

[lost thorn]

Why crows? Why not the lake?

Way before mr owl existed the lake was also altering things on its island

[azure bay]

Because we've never seen or even suspected the lake doing something that big on the surface.

The only thing we've probably seen with a ton ifs and buts is potential time stopping in The Mill.

Real time anomalies take place underwater because it's the nexus of the multiverse of cubes

[lost thorn]

It literally caused ten plagues to hit the island what do you mean?

Also you inadvertently proved what I was suggesting about anomalies being underwater, where I suggested the train station could be

[azure bay]

It's not time-space, dude.

One thing is to turn water into blood and transform a person into a giant bug and the other is suddenly teleport us to the lake and then back. Especially when opium trip is the simplest and thus the best explanation by Occam's standards

And so is personal Crow's will

He's at least that sencient

[lost thorn]

You're implying a law about what's most probable in a world where fish can grow legs blobs that can eat mice

In a world as absurd as rusty lake you would take the meteor cutting down the tree over an axe

But if you're insistent on occam's razor

Opium is unlikely to induce a trip

[azure bay]

The world can be weird and magical but assuming that anything is possible will lead us nowhere. It's statistically impossible to guess what the devs were thinking. The options, the guesses are too numerous while the truth is only 1. So we need to go conservative and cut off the most possibilities possible based on clues and evidence. Reconsidering our choices only when new ones show up.

That's rationality 101

[lost thorn]

And at the time, a drug that can induce that was cocaine, which was synthesized in 1860

And used as treatment during those times

Opium was used as a depressant
Something for you to relax, which was on theme to what mr boar needed as indicated from his invitation letter

[azure bay]

That's overthinking.

If you insist on IRL consistency that the devs may not even be aware of, fine, it doesn't have to be a trip. Opioids are sedatives so it's a dream then.

[lost thorn]

Your arguments are faltering

[azure bay]

Not even

My message is that the drug effects + individual will are more expected than some eldrich being magic

[lost thorn]

Your evidence of it being a trip is the consumption of opium
Then you bring up the razor law
Anwd by applying your logic, you should believe that it's unlikely for opium to induce trips

We've seen surrealism in rusty lake
Whether in memories or in the real lake
So it stands to reason that it's not a trip

[azure bay]

That's a straw man argument

I explained what I inherently mean

[lost thorn]

And all this argument is weak to begin with when you consider the lake is the one that gave owl his powers to begin with

[azure bay]

That's not confirmed

[lost thorn]

The elixir started as a sacrifice that lake would accept or reject

The lake has been confirmed to have a world under it where time is not straight anymore

and the lake also brought about hail and drought on one particular island and even kept them in the dark and fog
There is a supernatural time related abilities to them

[lost thorn]

Not a strawman
You claim that mr crow took advantage of the trip
Yet I don't even think it was a trip to begin with

[lost thorn]

Right
And I'm with you on that, and because of that I'm inclined to believe that the lake does contain magical abilities in relation to time travel

And not just mr crow himself alone

I'm not making up a new possibility that was never thought before because "it could be anything"
I'm still grounded by the rules and laws that the games showed us before

[lost thorn]

So all the other rooms contained eldritch magic except boar's?
That's not thematically consistent

[azure bay]

What are talking about?

[lost thorn]

There were hands in ms pheasant's room, something we've seen the lake always randomly spawning
There's an Easter egg in Mr rabbit's room where you can see two of him before he dies, it could be two individuals or it could be time travel, still mysterious enough to count as a possibility for anomaly
Mr deer's room has a skull that oozes blood
I don't remember mrs. pigeon's room

[azure bay]

The devs said they love placing some weird and funny stuff in their games.

You aren't supposed to take everything at face value and rationalize it with the lake's powers.

[lost thorn]

I'm starting to feel like you're going to tell me next that the lake isn't even magical

[azure bay]

Again, a straw man

[lost thorn]

We went from theorizing about whether the train is real ot not
To where the magic came from
To whether the magic was possible on thw surface to begin with

[lost thorn]

No, an expression

[lost thorn]

A straw man would be me telling you that the devs loved Albert and brought him back so I should still believe he's dead

But that's not what I said (also this is an example don't take it at face value)

[azure bay]

Here's the thing. The devs said on Gamescom 2023 that samsara is a thing on its own, separate from the lake. The lake can affect how you navigate through it but so can elixir and the elixir has NO confirmed connections to the lake. It were the Eilanders who were making sacrifices for the lake's enlightenment and Caroline was the 1st person to step away from that tradition. Elixir is more like exploiting samsara directly.

Chances are, Owl's and Crow's powers come from their asura nature and not the lake's bliss.

Then again, we must be conservative. We don't have any right to assume more than we've seen for sure before.

Even if the lake has powers, even if the lake has time-related powers you can't just use it to justify everything in bulk. Just as you can't assume Harvey time traveling everywhere just because he has such ability.

You need to review every case separetly. And this case specifically uses drugs. It may be not a trip per se, it can be an opioid dream but the usage of drugs puts the audience on alert about unreliable narrators. That's what should be your 1st guess.

Then we have Mr. Crow doing similar magic in Roots.

This evidence is more numerous and substantial than "the lake is magical". Don't make it "the lake of gaps"

[lost thorn]

Okay but a common refute is that the drug that was used is not a psychedelic
Meaning what we see isn't a trip, so it must come from elsewhere
Lake or not, the ability to travel through space (and time possibly) is a possibility here since the opium is not a psychedelic
The place we travel to was only shown to be inside the lake (the forest in paradox is unreliable as it comes from a simulation) therefore it is as possible as crow's ability to time travel to be also the lake's ability, since said forest was only concretely seen inside the lake

But
To circle back to the old argument
Even IF the lake can't do anything on the shores, it definitely can underwater
So saying what I said about the train operating underwater, then it can work with a similar method we've seen occurring both in simulations AND the real power we saw in mr boar's room (whether it was a trip or not, lake or crow, something supernatural happened)

[azure bay]

Okay but a common refute is that the drug that was used is not a psychedelic

Meaning what we see isn't a trip, so it must come from elsewhere

I repeat, even if it's not a trip (and I'm not sure if the devs know how it works) it is still more likely to be a drug-induces dream, not an actual teleportation.

The place we travel to was recently confirmed to appear in dreams. Laura's nightmares, to be specific.

So saying what I said about the train operating underwater, then it can work with a similar method we've seen occurring both in simulations AND the real power we saw in mr boar's room (whether it was a trip or not, lake or crow, something supernatural happened)

A debatable theory can't be strong evidence for another debatable theory. The more assumptions you require the more likely the theory is to crumble when new evidence disproves something

[lost thorn]

I have a legitimate question

Do you keep track of your questions?

[azure bay]

even if sometimes I don't it doesn't delegitimize my points.

Now go to the point

[lost thorn]

Alright

[lost thorn]

This is my point

You asked me on how the train would work
And I answered, giving a possible theory on how it can travel

It was not to reimburse my other theory about the train being a contraption which we argued yesterday

So your answer would have to either be "it's a possible mechanism" or "it doesn't work according to the lake's rules" regardless of how weak or strong thw idea of the train station being a thing to begin with

As for that other theory I also made my conclusive thoughts

[lost thorn]

Right here

If there's anything new you'd wish to debate, I'd love to hear it as long as you're respectful about it
But I feel that going back to the reality of the train without new evidence is just recycling the same discussion
And I don't wish to have us spamming and hogging this channel for that so I'd await the mods to give the green light first
Wouldn't you agree?

[azure bay]

Another thing I highly doubt is Harvey being an asura in UB

There's a ton of evidence as to why he shouldn't

and it makes UB in general even less reliable, even the secret stations

but here I do anticipate a possible retcon

and a nasty one at that

[lost thorn]

I understand that Harvey's box is an old game

But the proportions we see in Harvey's bird form are drastically different from underground blossom or hotel

So he has to at least be in human form, if not the former mentioned humanoid form

But I've got not qualms with either form, bird or humanoid

It might reimburse the train metaphor being an actual simulation thing

But I digress

[azure bay]

Hotel is ok, it makes sense on the bigger picture.

UB doesn't, all evidence considered

[azure bay]

no, it can't be simulation. Different parties can simulate different parts of UB but none all of them at once

[lost thorn]

Maybe

[lost thorn]

We don't know exactly when it takes place

[azure bay]

UB?

[lost thorn]

Yes

Or let me rephrase

We don't know what happens between 1972 ans 1981

That's a lot of time

[azure bay]

most likely UB is simple. Harvey gets to know Rose through Frank and, when Laura was born, started to live with them full-time

the time gap between 1972 and 1981 doesn't really justifies Harvey the asura in prior years

especially considering that this gap may be covered by UB

[lost thorn]

Honestly
I believe that some of the things harvey does in those games aren't necessarily what happened, as in, it's just a gameplay element
Because I wouldn't be do sure that laura was taking harvey to her school
Unless harvey was maybe following her, but regardless I doubt he was carrying notebooks and trading objects and all that

[azure bay]

absolutely

[lost thorn]

We know that there was time travel towards the end of UB

So could it be that harvey or as a humanoid on that train was only seeing Laura's life in retrospect?

Like
He can't influence what happened
But he's watching it all transpire after the fact in his humanoid form

[azure bay]

but at the same time he had to do something he had a mission and was asked for help on multiple occasions.

That's the point of the story that lies under gameplay and metaphors.

[azure bay]

it's not even a retrospect

It's Harvey being a part of Laura's life as it rolled out

with no spoilers and with screwing up

[lost thorn]

To an extent yes
But for example when we see harvey in the factory in the white door, he was just there
The screw up was all bob

But I do think he helped Laura with some stuff
Especially given how rose was aware of him and asked for his help

Which makes me think that harvey may be caught in a conflict of interests

Owl wants him for different purposes
Crow wants him but we don't know if crow is following owl or doing his own thing, so far I've never seen crow bringing up the day of the lake and cares more about the vanderboom tree
And then you've got rose who wants to reunite with her father

[azure bay]

honestly, that's a bad example because Harvey was there as an optional easter egg with no guarantee of canonicity.

But yeah, Rose asked Harvey for help and he (somehow) provided.

Speaking if conflict of interests, there's nothing so far to indicate Crow's disloyalty. Yes, he may have personal ventures like William's rebirth. But still he sure does everything in his power to make Owl's global plans happen and more often than not he just says "you no what to do" with no further explanations.

He doesn't speak of The Lake Day probably because he's not in position to spit out master plans of his employer and friend.

[lost thorn]

@azure bay something you said before stuck with me
You said something about Harvey's canoncity being dubious in the white door's Easter egg

[azure bay]

questionable*

or uncertain

some secrets are just easter eggs and future game teasers without making any sense in-universe

[rancid slate]

Like Mr. Rabbit in Paradise

[lost thorn]

Uhm
I said dubious so it's the same thing

As I was saying

[azure bay]

I misunderstood

English isn't my 1st language even though I speak it for decades

[azure bay]

Rather like Young Laura in Seasons. I take Mr. Rabbit more like a nod towards David-Rabbit connection

but it's close

[rancid slate]

Hotel Arles

[azure bay]

and that might be a hint that Bob attended Hotel at some point as a patient

[rancid slate]

Why Bob

[azure bay]

van Gogh*

[lost thorn]

While I do think that some of the Easter eggs, especially the ones added way later that seem to tie in for gameplay reasons/are part of the puzzle (most prominently found in the cube escape collection, for example I don't think the painting in case 23 showed the date in the starry night painting, but I would believe that it's uncertain or possible that mr crow fished out a box that contained Laura's picture)

However with that said, I do feel certain Easter eggs hold water

[rancid slate]

Bob is Gogh confirmed

[lost thorn]

And I believe the ones in the white door are important

[lost thorn]

Young Laura was in seasons?

[rancid slate]

Yes

[honest brook]

On the TV, by using the code found in The Lake

[rancid slate]

Added in Collection as a teaser to UB

[lost thorn]

Oh right

[azure bay]

for sure some do mean something. It's just it's not always certain. I personally don't rule out Harvey overseeing Bob on Owl's behest

[lost thorn]

Well those things I don't necessarily think are canon

[azure bay]

in my book, Harvey at Johnsson is more likely yes than no

[lost thorn]

I think it was directly in the factory though

[azure bay]

that's what we call a theory

but theories may end up wrong

I'm just keeping it in mind

[lost thorn]

Wanna hear why I think that the white door achievements hold much more water than any other achievements?

[azure bay]

tell me

[rancid slate]

Does the butterfly achievement in TWD matters?

[azure bay]

the one you trap in the cubical device?

[rancid slate]

The worm

[lost thorn]

It's because there's a good chunk of Easter eggs that contain alot of important dialog
They don't feel like a reference or a "nod" towards something

[rancid slate]

Larva

[lost thorn]

For example

[azure bay]

no need, I know what you are talking about

[lost thorn]

Ah

[rancid slate]

I mean, 50% of the game is dialog based

[azure bay]

best secret scenes ever since Hotel epilogue in Bday

[lost thorn]

Then yeah that's why I feel that the achievements especially in the white door hold more water

[lost thorn]

Exactly!

I was going to bring it up and how I think it's credible

The method of reaching it is uncertain lore wise
But I do believe that it's canon

As in
I'm not sure the canoncity of the method of reaching that secret but the secret itself is canon

Wanna know something else?

[azure bay]

I still insist on evaluating secrets individually. The general achievement tendencies don't change much from game to game

[lost thorn]

I believe that before bob administered to the white door facility, the Easter egg with mr crow was actually a prelude to an interview from him

Maybe it was a psychic evaluation

[azure bay]

there are usually story achievements, clickers, easter eggs, teasers and sometimes something meaningful

[lost thorn]

And that ties perfectly with the secret cassette found in paradox!

Paradox is a game thaat filled to the brim with previous references and foresight of things that were in production

[azure bay]

which doesn't make much sense on its own, if you think about it more.

It's basically Bob retelling his part in Case 23 including the gameplay part. Which was ignored in TWD that I trust more in that aspect

[lost thorn]

It's the tipping scale for the new rusty lake connected universe

[rancid slate]

He says something like 247 appearing to him

[azure bay]

"I only remember numbers"

[rancid slate]

Which doesnt happen in TWD, as Nowhere said

Atleast not in the dream

[azure bay]

but again, I don't really rule out Mr. Crow interviewing Bob at some point with that going a bit differently

[rancid slate]

Me too

[lost thorn]

I don't think the interview's content is necessarily canon, it was happening inside a simulation and there was a gameplay element to it

But I do believe at least that mr crow's interview to bob happened

I think it's a neat tie in that I don't see many people talking about

[azure bay]

I believed that too but I've grown more cynical about the series since so for now I simply admit its possibility. It may have not happen at TWD.

As I think about it, the interview could be held some time between Theatre and the Police Department

[lost thorn]

Why are you cynical about it?

[azure bay]

I see more and more superficial elements, less and less lore consistency and attention to details. I can't be that sure about it all secretly making sense behind the scenes, now I can only hope.

[rancid slate]

I remember now, Elizabeth

-Laura

[lost thorn]

I get what you mean
Didn't they expand their team though?

[azure bay]

nope

only Maarten, Robin, community managers and a bunch of freelancers

[lost thorn]

I'd expect it to be more consistent and attentive to details now that the team is bigger
Or maybe now that the team grew bigger, ideas began to strain more as it's not one person writing the plot anymore

[lost thorn]

I'm certain that the game's credits grew bigger

[rancid slate]

I think more people would result in less consistency

But its not just the number

[lost thorn]

That's what I mean yeah

[azure bay]

There was additional help in TPW for they needed Unity developers but only the freelancer list consistently grows.

[rancid slate]

One person could take care of the story and still be very consistent

[lost thorn]

Right
But also underground blossom

I'm very sure rusty lake announced more than one job position available a while back

One of those included writers

[rancid slate]

UB has more voice actors, sound designer, the trumpet player, etc
But not more people in the story development team I think

[lost thorn]

Oh I see

That's slightly concerning

[azure bay]

there's no one like that in the credits

[lost thorn]

I can at least expect consistently good gameplay though

[rancid slate]

The gameplay isnt consistent in UB tho

[lost thorn]

And that's what hooked me on to the series in the first place
The lore was just a bonus

[lost thorn]

read it again

[rancid slate]

Not the technical stuff

[lost thorn]

But the game itself is good

[azure bay]

I've heard people harshly criticizing UB's game design in comparison to older games

personally I didn't feel much difference

maybe a bit easier

[lost thorn]

I prefer games like the cave or paradise or birthday
But UB feels like seasons but more refined

[azure bay]

What so different about Seasons?

[lost thorn]

The easiest game published by the team be hiss rusty lake and second maze has to be follow the meaning

I genuinely couldn't enjoy anything in that game

[covert wyvern]

This ins't the place to talk about Follow the meaning.

[azure bay]

yeah, they didn't design it

[lost thorn]

It feels more polished than seasons
I don't know how to explain it but it's easier to know what to do in that game than in seasons

[lost thorn]

Sorry 🙏

[azure bay]

Game design-wise, the only sin I'd attribute to it is having to click on clock hands and safe code lock digits to change them.

[lost thorn]

About that
I think it's possible for mr crow to have interviewed bob right before they assigned a room for him in the facility
Mr owl after all had to test him
So it's a standard procedure at least

[lost thorn]

I don't get that?

[azure bay]

the interaction with similar puzzles changes over time

[rancid slate]

Imo the best clock is the one in Roots

UB clock being different is only effectively used in Bird Bridge train time

[azure bay]

again, it's a possible point in time for that. But not the only one

[lost thorn]

Oh that
Yeah it gets stale after a while

[azure bay]

I don't think it's about staleness but user experience

[lost thorn]

Yeah I understand that too

[rancid slate]

Other times it feels to me that is just to "evolve"

I just feel very frustated whenever theres a drawer that I need to drag

[vivid bridge]

you know

its kind of a wasted opportunity for birthday mr rabbit to not close his letter with "- D. " instead of "- Mr Rabbit"

would have been cool foreshadowing

little mystery

[azure bay]

and a big mislead

[vivid bridge]

dale is mr. rabbit theories would have gone crazy

[azure bay]

I'd be fooled deeply

[main badge]

is lura a lesbian? i just a meme and ik it was a meme but it got me thinking.. she was reborn from a man who liked women and she dumps bob without a solid reason and well honey that haircut

laura*****

just saw** sorry im on my ipad hehe

[visual coral]

yes, she is and me and her are dating

sry bob

[main badge]

its okay i’ll happily take bob

i kid, i ship him and the nurse even tho itd be a heavy power dynamic

[visual coral]

welp, they did end up together in one of the timelines at least

[vivid bridge]

without a solid reason? She had depression so strong it killed her lmao

[main badge]

the critic in your name is there for a reason lmao

[hearty silo]

Literally!!

[azure bay]

Gazillions of creatures are dying and being reborn every day with random genders.

Laura's rebirth was admittedly unique but there's nothing that would indicate her being like William in any shape or form.

Besides, she did accept Bob's advances initially.

[rancid slate]

Should the flower be considered part of the Animal realm or as some sort of "evolution" of the cs? (Like something as Laura's blossom or Mr. Rabbit being absorved)

[wheat ore]

it kinda looks like Laura's head and hair in Case23, am I tripping ?

[rancid slate]

What two years of no new games does to a man

[rancid slate]

The play is called The fish and the parrot tho

[wheat ore]

😭

[lunar axle]

Look what you did Damy

[azure bay]

I don't think so. The play is called A Fisg and A Parrot

[azure bay]

Doesn't seem intentional

[floral mauve]

BUT IT FLEW

enlightened fish

Fish owl

[visual coral]

I think there is some symbolism in there like "blossoming of a soul" with the flower, but I don't think it has anything to do with the Animal realm and Fish and the Parrot play

[honest brook]

Yeah it seems to act as a regular flower during that section

[royal notch]

The "animal" real should contain vegetables as well.

[azure bay]

aren't you joking?

[royal notch]

Why would i? The devs aren't that attached to actual sources, so they can put plants in that realm if they wanted.

[rancid slate]

https://tenor.com/view/rick-and-morty-rick-and-morty-season3-adult-swim-rick-sanchez-pickle-rick-gif-9088343

[azure bay]

still sounds weird. Plants don't have mind, don't have memories unless they are tree "gods" in blossom under The Lake

[rancid slate]

My tree got ofended

[azure bay]

no, it doesn't even have emotions

[rancid slate]

https://tenor.com/view/fraz-bradford-meme-world-of-tanks-albania-gif-20568566

[royal notch]

It was in the iphotesis of them being living beings as in reality.

[rancid slate]

I hope they show the realms again with Rose Tree explained somehow

[azure bay]

"living" doesn't imply a soul

[rancid slate]

As part of it or outside (tree = escaping the cycle?)

[azure bay]

for now I doubt it's about nirvana

[rancid slate]

Idk what nirvana is

[azure bay]

escaping samsara

[deft haven]

https://tenor.com/view/mtv-unplugged-nirvana-nirvana-mtv-unplugged-kurt-kurtcobain-gif-22446383

[rancid slate]

So thats how you escape

You become a musician

Victor achieved nirvana!

[deft haven]

Yes

[rancid slate]

Thats why theres no composers mentioned in-lore

Because they all go missing to the lake

[rancid slate]

If Laura and Bob had a baby

[deft haven]

He would die soon, somehow. Maybe end up as a sacrifice

[royal notch]

Any example?

[azure bay]

It's the consensus of the majority of global religions. If you think that an artist made a deviation from that, the burden of proof is on you.

[royal notch]

It was an ipothesis, again.

[azure bay]

like thousands of other hypotheses produced by hundreds of RL fans and an infinite potential of more.

What makes this specific one more entitled for truth than them?

[royal notch]

Nothing.

[azure bay]

2 scam bots in a row?

[shrewd kernel]

Guys, what do you think about new Rusty Lake Newspaper?

https://www.rustylake.com/newsletter/

|| I think it's impossible to publish monthly and even more weekly such newspapers if they cover news about new games, their development and the like.
It would be more logical to "style" the newspaper and write in it literally "news from the world of RL". That is, news about our favorite characters from different years.

This way they can open up lore a bit without touching on new games and their development. But not everything is so ambiguous, because I am confused by the fact that this newspaper was only told on Instagram. ||

And what do you think about it?

[visual coral]

I feel like it's just some development news, cause people have been saying that they take quite a long time to release new games, so a monthly update with some puzzles seems like the right thing to do
If it will be a bunch of in universe news then I'm afraid it's gonna be something along the lines of: "Here's all of the Hotel guest's ages! It's going to be clashing with everything we had shown before, but have fun either way"

[shrewd kernel]

Conforming to the canons in new products from Rusty Lake is an impossible dream)

[visual coral]

I would somewhat disagree. We see that the devs are taking the direction to expand the story, and create new lore instead of continuing the story linearly and basing the events only on established mechanics. They are clearly more interested in exploring and experimenting, even tho it sometimes comes with retcons.
And their Q&A's show us that there is a whole lair of lore that we have no clue about, so what is retconed and what's not is not so clear after all.

So they could be conforming to their canons and how things should work that just never were stated. Which is a problem in it's own way of course

[ebon sun]

the rusty lake newsletter isn't a new thing, i've been subscribed to it for a while now...

it usually just gives news about development, contests, sales, merchandise, etc

the difference is that now it's gonna have puzzles apparently

[azure bay]

It looks like they are changing its format too. Maybe even making blogposts more often

[ebon sun]

i hope so

[rancid slate]

I mean, the Newsletter already was more frequent than monthly

Like

There were some months with 2 or 3 newsletters published

Its not just for games

They also talk about events, sales, etc

[rancid slate]

But yeah, seems like a new format

[trail garnet]

This is a theory I have but I'm not sure if somebody has already covered it
Basically yk the samsara wheel.
In Hindu mythology samsara acts like the circle of life and all souls go through different forms like animals, humans etc.
I'm Hindu mythology it's said that when a soul takes the human form they can achieve moksha which is like the highest form of spirituality.
So what if when a person in the rusty lake lore reaches enlightenment is sorta a reflection on in Hindu mythology of someone achieving moksha.
Lemme know your thoughts on this

[honest brook]

When it comes to Rusty Lake, it looks like enlightenment is just being upgraded on the samsara cycle

[trail garnet]

True

As moksha also means being free from the samsara cycle

[vivid bridge]

People have speculated whether Moksha/Nirvana is a thing in the rusty lake world but so far there hasn't been any implication

[fiery wing]

weird question but do we know the exact reason laura broke up with bob in white door?

she says shes leaving and that it wont work out, so she knew of her fate at the lake or was it something else?

[azure bay]

she said she didn't feel well

also in UB she mirrored how her mother abandoned her "we have to go our own paths"

UB isn't to be taken literally but at least it can give some insight in the character's psyche

[vivid bridge]

there is also just the practical reason that she is physically leaving New York and going to the lake from a few months to maybe over a year

[fiery wing]

thats true!! do we have an approximate physical location for the lake?

[vivid bridge]

Not really

personally I think its in the pacific northwest since its inspired by Twin Peaks

You could argue its in the netherlands due to all the dutch names but the netherlands don't really have mountains like that

[fiery wing]

thats what i thought too tbh

the northwest i mean

[vivid bridge]

its what I assume

[azure bay]

@vivid bridge @fiery wing the chapel by the lake was built in 1384, in Romanesque style typical for the 14th century, it was way before Americas were even colonized.

Besides, Leonard joined the great war right when it started and did it by motorbike, not by boat. He's more likely to be a European native than an early American volunteer.

[grim plover]

More European culture!! I love my Europeans

[vivid bridge]

I am aware

still, what country

[grim plover]

If yall say Slovakia I’ll explode/pos

[azure bay]

I'd bet on the Lake District in Great Britain if I were to take Leo's uniform at face value

[grim plover]

Great War was the first or second one?

[vivid bridge]

first

[grim plover]

I see

Slovakia wasn’t even a thing back then, hmm

[vivid bridge]

"It's gonna be a great war. So great we don't need a second one"

[azure bay]

yeah it was called great because no one expected the 2nd one coming

[grim plover]

Ohhhh! That helps, thanks!!

[rancid slate]

Rusty Lake

[azure bay]

would be cool but no

[rancid slate]

No way

[azure bay]

No shit

[trail garnet]

theres an actual lake in canada called rusty lake

but i doubt if rusty lake was set there

[rancid slate]

Just a coincidence

Theres also a person named Dale Vandermeer born exaclty in 18/12/1930

(Real)

[trail garnet]

aint no way

[trail garnet]

yea

[azure bay]

The devs said they are aware of that but it's not it.

Besides, there are 7 actual lakes in Canada called Rusty Lake

[trail garnet]

yea

[silk pilot]

What if all the Rusty Lake events were just a simulation by the Matrix...

[azure bay]

by whose creation and for who?

[silk pilot]

Well that's the thing. Identity is always a mystery, and we barely find proper answers at some events that may or not may make sense

[azure bay]

another thing we barely find is evidence of existence of a master mind above even Mr. Owl himself

[silk pilot]

Yknow. When i look at Mr. Owl, I always think he's hiding some powers of changing reality.
What if he's the creator of this calamity...

[azure bay]

he can't even make elixir to sustain himself. And before that he was but an errand boy for his family

[silk pilot]

True, but that's only if he had assistance before

Which that could lead us to Mr. Crow

[azure bay]

Mr. Crow was arguably just a little bit more talented than Owl. Dabbling alchemist who can't create elixir either

and was born after Paradise

[silk pilot]

Right, right...
What do you think about the corrupted souls?
They definitely exist more than hundreds of years since they're technically dead people at some point.

And also illusions...

[azure bay]

the only truly mysterious soul is the bird-looking one that helps Albert. But it's not enough to label it as the gray eminence behind everything.

Mysterious can end up anything

[silk pilot]

True. Despite if there might be alternative timelines that lead to a different shape of chaos

Which i never thought about it on how they would look like

[azure bay]

I don't think the devs would keep all that under the rug. So we shouldn't overthink it either

[silk pilot]

Exactly. We're already dealing with lots of theories about the canon timeline

We're definitely not ready for more

[azure bay]

there are more but yeah, let's focus on those in already in our scopes

[rancid slate]

Me

https://tenor.com/view/bill-cipher-gravity-falls-bill-cipher-gravity-gif-23295282

[wheat ore]

https://tenor.com/vx48.gif

[wheat ore]

pov albert and harvey ( frank is still in the well )

[azure bay]

@vivid bridge what if I told you that:

1. Albert's plan was to live into the future as a corrupted soul.

2. In her purse, Rose still had his nut driver that she used to dismantle his cubical device.

3. When extracting her memories in The Lab and launching the test program of the new cubical device we see flashbacks from The Past Within. Notably Albert's soul and his broken picture. Both arguably wouldn't happen if not for FRose's intervention.

[rancid slate]

2. Doesnt the same red screwdriver appears in almost everywhere?

[azure bay]

no, because it's not a screwdriver

it's the one and only NUTdriver in the series

[rancid slate]

But it used the same sprite?

[azure bay]

not in the slightest

[rancid slate]

Or are you talking about the yellow one?

[azure bay]

no, the yellow one was a normal screwdriver

at the same time the red handle doesn't matter when the tip has a different function

[rancid slate]

They look the same to me

Besides name and artstyle

[azure bay]

think again //_-

[grim plover]

They just tend to use the same art assets sometimes, let’s say that :3

[azure bay]

not when the same tool was seen in possession of the same family all 3 times it appeared on-screen

[grim plover]

I’ve seen some art assets be used over and over in the games tho

[azure bay]

oh, certainly

but "can be" isn't "will be" yet

the context matters

and the context is, Albert used it to assemble the device, Rose used it to take off its grate and later Harvey found it in her purse

[rancid slate]

Its also used in Future too, right?

[azure bay]

no

in The Future, it's a normal random screwdriver again

[rancid slate]

1+3, so basically "originally" Albert woke up uncorrupted and we maybe we'll see that in another game?

[rancid slate]

So the names are different in Past and Future?

[azure bay]

no, my point is, we have evidence that The Past and The Future are somehow the same timeline

[azure bay]

the names, the sprites, the models

[rancid slate]

Right 👽

Thats cool

[azure bay]

(a rare case when we can properly use the "model" term for Rusty Lake)

[rancid slate]

Lol

[rancid slate]

So how Alberto Vanderbem woke up if its the same timeline?

[azure bay]

woke up?

you mean screaming?

[rancid slate]

Yeah

[azure bay]

it could be before he died

[rancid slate]

Well, they really say brain dead is not dead

[azure bay]

like "Oh no! The Future told me I will die! I need to invent a cubical device!"

[rancid slate]

https://tenor.com/view/casket-coffin-rise-gif-13055117

Would be weird to see that room again without being in TPW, like an update

(Atleast all the 4 walls together)

[azure bay]

please explain

[rancid slate]

Weird only if they literally reused the whole room again but in a different game

[azure bay]

I doubt they will. It's supposed to be an approximation of the Vanderbooms' ground floor

like The Future is an approximation of The Lab

[rancid slate]

TPW Past update where you can check the "original" version of the memory (No Future help)

[azure bay]

I doubt they will go back to TPW again

[rancid slate]

Atleast not again

[azure bay]

and nothing would stop them to do something like Harvey's death scene in Bday or the elevator ending in UB

a familiar thing in a new game. Sometimes out of place

[rancid slate]

Albert game 🙏

[azure bay]

I can totally imagine the devs squeezing him in the alchemist bros game

but I'd prefer an Albert game too (eventually, I don't want to catch an overdose)

[rancid slate]

Craft wine

[azure bay]

Winecraft

[rancid slate]

Craft the masks!!!

Cant wait to see the 4th Vanderboom brother

[vivid bridge]

1. Debatable. The whole "once I lose at chess I'll die" thing seems like a prophecy to me and the cubical device was built in response, not the other way around

2. So what

3. We know that real!Albert gets corrupted independent of memory!Albert, so that's not true

[azure bay]

2. Rose likely wouldn't care about the nut driver if she didn't use it. And assuming she used it besides TPW is overcomplicating.

3. The flashbacks before Rose even touched the device, mind you

as if she remembered all exactly as in TPW

@vivid bridge

[vivid bridge]

yeah yeah i'm here

[azure bay]

just in case

[vivid bridge]

what flashbacks do you mean

[azure bay]

the things we see in the extraction chamber + the sparkling device

[rancid slate]

https://tenor.com/view/flashes-the-past-within-hungry-ghost-corrupted-soul-corrupted-albert-vanderboom-gif-2265804065937716345

(Not these tho)

[azure bay]

including one of these

[rancid slate]

But Albert does appear corrupted in these too

[vivid bridge]

I'm sorry but we see Albert corrupted in the lab

He's already there

he kidnapped Rose at the train station

so he was already corrupted at this point

and based on the memory flashes, it seems like it happened at his wake

[azure bay]

the flashback is about 1926

he wasn't corrupted then

unless Rose made him

[rancid slate]

Then why a corrupted soul appears in the flashes

[azure bay]

and she made him because Future Rose asked her

[rancid slate]

Then what 😭

[azure bay]

that's what we should figure out

[rancid slate]

Maybe they forgotr

[vivid bridge]

It doesn't matter what instructions past-memory!rose got, Albert is corrupted in the real world, too (we see him in Future Chapter 1 and of course in UB)

so he was corrupted there too

[rancid slate]

"UB is the alt timeline"

[azure bay]

my point is, if Albert wasn't corrupted by Rose, he wasn't corrupted in 1926

or at least not in her memories

[rancid slate]

I corrupted him

[vivid bridge]

In the memory flashes he's a CS at his own wake, so the initial events of The Past seem to mirror the real world

[azure bay]

you seemingly don't see where I was going to from the start

[rancid slate]

He woke up, Rose got scared and attacked him so Albert died again and become corrupted

[vivid bridge]

nope

I think you're trying to elude to some weird timeloop maybe

[azure bay]

all these make a case for a single timeline

[vivid bridge]

they really don't

[azure bay]

evidence is evidence even if you ways to refute it

[rancid slate]

Theres no evidence for Rose going missing to the Lake and Laura not existing later

👽

[vivid bridge]

your evidence is "Rose has an item in the 1920s and then the same item in 1984" like that's just linear time progression

[azure bay]

please listen

[rancid slate]

Shouldve mentioned it in your video

[azure bay]

there's still Albert willing to live into the future, there's still a nut driver that has no reasons to be in Rose's possession if she never used it and there are flashbacks faithful to how TPW rolled out with FRose pulling strings (Albert's CS is not the only one. There's also his photo that wouldn't fall if not for FRose)

these are all valid interpretations

even if you, even if I myself would prefer to see them differently

[vivid bridge]

what do you mean "Albert willing to live into the future"

[azure bay]

"my 1st life will end but my dark soul will live on into the future waiting for resurrection"

[vivid bridge]

yeah

he wants to get corrupted so he can be resurrected later

again, very linear

nowhere what the fuck are you even arguing here are you trying to say that there is only one timeline and changing a memory changes the real world? Is this where this is going

[azure bay]

I'm arguing that apparently it's a valid possibility now

[rancid slate]

Heres my interpretation:

UB Lab flashes -> Alber gets corrupted somehow -> Laura is born -> UB Crib S-Child L -> Rose Lab thing -> Memory is extracted -> TPW alters the Past memory and the whole TPW happens -> Somehow Tree -> Im Albert Im evil

[azure bay]

even if we both would hate it

[azure bay]

the problem is, we have no idea if he even had a chance to corrupt if not for FRoze. Important events happening behind the scenes are very bad storytelling and it confuses me why you are willing to resort to it so often

[rancid slate]

The photo is shattered?

[azure bay]

in the flashback, yes

[rancid slate]

Goofy aah timeloop

[vivid bridge]

it's a story about memories! Seeing not real events but slightly altered recollections of it! We never see an actual flashback of Laura killing herself, just a bunch of different memories of it. That doesn't mean those memories are actually what happeneed

I'm sorry, this is gonna come off rude but the whole "changing memories changes the real world" thing to me is the dumbest theory anyone can have in a series about memories. Like do you understand what a memory is

[azure bay]

El, it doesn't matter. In The Lab we see supposedly altered memories before they were even altered

[vivid bridge]

No we don't

what

[rancid slate]

Either FRose just "fastforwarded" things by making things like the photo and corruption that originally happened without help happen again quicker or it's a plothole/oversight 💀

[vivid bridge]

pretty much

[azure bay]

Flashbacks, Ellesian, flashbacks. There's a flashback of 1) Albert that wasn't supposed to be corrupted in that specific memory, 2) His torn apart photo that wasn't supposed to fall in that specific memory.

But it's a fresh memory, nobody even touched it.

[vivid bridge]

The first half of Birthday is essentially the same as the real event despite multiple sources of outside interference

[vivid bridge]

Yes, so the conclusion is that those things actually happened

[rancid slate]

Plot twist: The cs is William

[vivid bridge]

that rascal billy

[azure bay]

but in TPW they happened specifically because Future Rose made them happen

[rancid slate]

"yo guys what yall doin?"

[vivid bridge]

yeah but they happened slightly different for different reasons in the past

I think that's more likely than completely rethinking how the world works

[azure bay]

we don't know that

[rancid slate]

But we didnt saw if thats true

UB basically suggests that these things happened without FRose help

Either this, plothole or timeloop

*Time Paradox

[azure bay]

in this situation both are viable options

[vivid bridge]

Memories aren't a completely open world, they still follow the narrative of that memory. Despite all the changes Owl did to the theatre memory, Dale still talks to Bob like he did in the real world. The big change in The Past memory is extracting all the stuff from Albert but the overall event (Albert being resurrected) is hard coded into the cube because that is the real event that is being remembered

[azure bay]

Ellesian, there's no point to argue about that in with me. You will never convince me unless you bring up evidence

[rancid slate]

If only FRose had a blue cube

[azure bay]

I mean about cubes being limited to memories

[vivid bridge]

Well thats what we see

[azure bay]

no

[rancid slate]

Considering we have teasers for Theatre and Alchemy

We might not get an answer to weird 1926 that soon

[azure bay]

we see that The Future is the supposed reality and it acts just like The Past that is a supposed memory

they are no different but in labels

so let's drop this topic for now and go back to Albert and Rose

[vivid bridge]

do we have to

i'm joking

please continue

[azure bay]

there are different theorist sins

sometimes they are preferable

sometimes they are inevitable either way

assuming that big events roll out behind the scenes is one of them

[vivid bridge]

Like Laura dying?

that's off-screen