🤔｜theories

[pearl seal]

Exactly like the death of Laura

[azure bay]

We're not technically playing as a bird. But I believe it's yet another artistic choice

Harvey has to be stuck in a birb form

[pearl seal]

I still am inclined to believe that there is a real subway metro station the game is based on

[pearl seal]

We are playing as Harvey

[azure bay]

we are

and he looks like an asura

but it makes no sense

[pearl seal]

Do you think Harvey has more freedom of his forms in memories/inside the cubes ?

[pearl seal]

But he has human hands

[azure bay]

Asuras have human-like hands

[pearl seal]

Not always

[azure bay]

I don't. Especially considering that The Past Within seemingly proves the cubes being realities and the reality being just another cube

and UB has no evidence of being even cubes

[pearl seal]

Mr crow was seen both with normal and feathered hands

[azure bay]

For the most part, Mr. Crow wears gloves

[pearl seal]

It has evidence of being a set of memories
It even parodies the gameplay of seasons

Which I connection I've rarely heard anyone else bring up

Is*

[pearl seal]

I know
But in rusty lake hotel
You can see mr crow with feathered fingers when giving you the knife
It's more confusing when you realize he has normal hands at the intro

[thorny wedge]

to me it seems more like an amalgamation of events past rather than memories (at least not the cube memories of the rusty lake universe), a retelling, cause usually memories seem to stay a lot more faithful to the one event they are off, whereas there are several mixed up events per every single station

so yeah i wouldnt necessarily argue there's evidence for UB to take place within the memory cubes

[azure bay]

This is superficial.

Memories don't work like that. Besides, what's the point? In Seasons Laura was canceling her death, in Bday Dale was canceling the death of his parents, Theatre provided Dale a framework to learn samsara, The Past Within required Albert's bodyparts from the past to build him a new body

[pearl seal]

I think you're right
But also in some dreams of bob we've seen things that aren't there that mesh together in one weird dream sequence
And we learn in that game that those dreams are actual memories

[azure bay]

dreams and cubes are a bit different things. Also TPW forces the cubes to be real. It simply doesn't make sense otherwise

[thorny wedge]

but they're more actual real life memories than the cubes we see in rusty lake i'd say, like an actual human brain uses memories and meshes then in dreams

[pearl seal]

Wait

Could it be that underground blossom is something similar to Dale's paradox?

[azure bay]

It could but it doesn't look like

[honest brook]

I think Underground Blossom is more of a retelling

[thorny wedge]

i believe that's been discussed, it could be but in that case it's odd that harvey basically does most of the work as far as we can tell if it's laura's path through the "paradox"

[pearl seal]

I think so too but it has to be activated by something maybe a new machine by owl?

I feel that it's very similar in a way to paradox
A virtual reality using memories

[honest brook]

Well I feel like it doesn't take place at all

[azure bay]

Chances are, It's just Harvey's pov on Laura's life shown through a metro setting

[pearl seal]

It doesn't hace to be laura doing the things
Maybe Harvey accessed it using Laura's memories

[pearl seal]

I find it too weird the game is meant to be entirely metaphorical

Mr owl at the end is real

[azure bay]

that's literally what the devs say

[pearl seal]

But paradox is also metaphorical but it happened
In the machine

[honest brook]

But I the trains and the whole metro setting isn't real

[thorny wedge]

well harvey has been running errands for mr owl for a while seemingly. he finished another "errand", being guiding laura through her life, and he met mr owl at the end of it for another task. it makes sense to me as a retelling still

[azure bay]

no, that makes Paradox take place in the universe

and UB is just "7 unique stations symbolizing Laura's past and potential future"

"We’ve already brainstormed about this concept for quite some years. Having a train station is an interesting location: new trains come by, new people arrive and, in a way, taking a train to the next station symbolizes a new chapter in someone’s life. Laura has been one of the main characters throughout the Rusty Lake series and since we have been quite secretive about big parts of her life, we thought matching this concept with Laura was a perfect fit."

[thorny wedge]

paradox doesn't seem super metaphorical to me tbh? like maybe the game isn't exactly the process dale is really experiencing but there's no signs for it being metaphorical, certainly not in the same way as UB

[honest brook]

Yeah I think Dale is actually "experiencing" the events in Paradox

[untold stump]

Metaphorical game and game that takes place in someone's mind r two different things

[pearl seal]

Oh okay
So everything up till the lake station can be summed up as Harvey's view of Laura's life and the lake is where the metaphor ends?

[atomic crystal]

Maybe Mr owl is Mr crows step sis

[azure bay]

somewhat ends

I believe Seasons take place during the last station

[atomic crystal]

Isn’t aldous the patriarch of the vanderbooms

Since William is the uncle

[thorny wedge]

i love the tonal shift

[pearl seal]

Are you sure? Because the game seemingly ends at when dale arrives at the hotel
And that is in 1972

[azure bay]

2 endings don't have to be connected. Especially when they contradict one another

[honest brook]

The time might not be to scale?

[pearl seal]

How so?

[atomic crystal]

It’s not dale

It’s Harvey who arrives at the hotel

[pearl seal]

What do you mean?

[azure bay]

Laura says, she can live a new life with no sorrow, not sacrifice it right away for Dale's ascension

[pearl seal]

Dale is seen riding an elevator to the hotel

[atomic crystal]

Oh wait

You mean rusty lake

Yeah

[honest brook]

When?

[pearl seal]

In one of the achievements

I believe it's the CE collection achievement

[atomic crystal]

Yeah

[honest brook]

No, I think it's Mr Crow and Laura in the elevator

[pearl seal]

Oh right sorry

[atomic crystal]

After dale reaches the lake he enters an elevator that goes through his memories and his minds

[pearl seal]

I do know that dale appears in the game and is seen riding the elevator

I don't remember which ending that was

[atomic crystal]

Mr crow is who you play as in mill and cave

[pearl seal]

Could it be the normal ending?

[honest brook]

I'm pretty sure Dale only appeared at the end of Sorrow Cross and in the dream

[pearl seal]

No I am sure he was seen at the lake station

[thorny wedge]

dale going up the elevator is visible in hotel (the game) i believe

[untold stump]

I think in Cave we see Dale take the elevator up and in Hotel we see him arrive there

[honest brook]

Yes but not in Underground Blossom I think

[untold stump]

No but we see ||Laura take the elevator with Crow|| secret ending spoiler

[pearl seal]

Sorry I must have misremembered

[honest brook]

I know, that's what I said

[atomic crystal]

Dale wasn’t really in underground blossom except for in Laura’s dream

[atomic crystal]

That’s when Laura reached enlightenment

[honest brook]

Wasn't he at the end of Sorrow Cross, when closing the doors in the train? iirc

[atomic crystal]

That was the crime scene

When she killed herself

[untold stump]

I dont think Laura got enlighitened when going up the elevator, Rose got enlightened by going in the Lake but not the elevator, and Dale took the elevator but yet he isnt enlightened (i think)

[atomic crystal]

I don’t think we know yet

Technically dale just reached the hotel on the elevator

[carmine field]

Actually we indeed see Dale's elevator in the game

before we enter the white cube

[atomic crystal]

You see it from the end of case 23 to paradox

And referenced in underground blossom

And the white door to

Wow

Wonder what the deal is with that cube

Place to reach the lake maybe

[carmine field]

agree

but it already existed in Paradise

not sure how

[atomic crystal]

Oh crap your right

That’s interesting

[carmine field]

there is a chance it's because time doesn't exist in the lake

but it didn't have a elevator

or at least it seems not

[atomic crystal]

It’s all relative

[carmine field]

@pearl seal

[honest brook]

Dale isn't actually in the elevator though, although he was in CE Cave

[carmine field]

He is, we just don't see him

The elevator goes up right before we access the cube

[honest brook]

Isn’t it Laura and Mr Crow in the elevator

[carmine field]

Yes, but Laura and Mr. Crow go up after we meet them

Not before

When we finally enter the cube, the elevator is back

Which makes me think that as we approached the cube, the elevator went up and down

[azure bay]

it's only logical

[carmine field]

I can't see how two elevators would work

So I think this is the best answer

[pearl seal]

Thanks!

[pearl seal]

Time is relative
But the more logical explanation is that you don't feel a long time passed for gameplay reasons
We don't actually wait 20 minutes for the photod in child lane

[pearl seal]

The silhouette of the elevator before you approach the cube has dale
We don't see it but it has to be him

[azure bay]

It's only natural that Dale and Laura will meet the day of the lake together. They are tied, after all

[pearl seal]

It was already spoiled to us

From paradise I mean

[azure bay]

I'd rather say it was built-up

[pearl seal]

Agreed
I'm more so talking about the fact that we know they'll meet

[pearl seal]

@azure bay you said that soul station is probably a retelling of seasons in winter 1981?

[azure bay]

no

my take was The Lake sneakely featuring it

[atomic crystal]

I’m pretty sure the games were meant to tell the same story

[pearl seal]

Oh

[azure bay]

yes and the order becomes less and less clear

[pearl seal]

I was going to say that the soul station level has to have happened before 1972 since that's where the timepiece breaks.

Also
The deer skull that kidnaps rose

Is that Albert or Nikolas?

[atomic crystal]

Seasons just didn’t make much sense

So they made UB

[azure bay]

I'm almost positive Seasons take place around an actual winter 1981. For it to happen Laura would probably need to revisit the lake. The ending of Seasons implies that she relives her adulthood a reformed woman.

[pearl seal]

I say Nikolas because he's someone with an interest with the time piece

[atomic crystal]

I doubt it’s Nikola

[azure bay]

Nicolas is a corrupted Asura. Albert is a corrupted human who needs Rose to resurrect him and he wears masks

[thorny wedge]

i see no reason why it would be nicholas when it makes sense that albert is taking rose away to get himself resurrected

[atomic crystal]

The fuck is an asura

[thorny wedge]

those animal people forms

[pearl seal]

Yet we see her as a reformed woman at the end of the lake
And she's riding the elevator

[atomic crystal]

Oh

Didn’t know they had an official name

[thorny wedge]

i dont think its official? i think some fan theorists got it from hinduism or something like that but ive never looked into it further

[atomic crystal]

It is supposed to represent her meeting dale in the white cube

At the end of cave

[pearl seal]

Me neither until I realized that Nikolas wanted the time piece and held on to it dearly

[thorny wedge]

*just generally indic religions not specifically hinduism it seems

[pearl seal]

It could be that he also maybe wanted to come back

And also mr rabbit did the same

[azure bay]

Yet she's not about to "live a new life" she intended. She's about to throw it away. Besides, her question "where did she go" about Rose echoes when the cube opens. As if it's not resolved yet. I bet Soul Street takes place after the elevator and the day of the lake.

[atomic crystal]

Can’t wait for the finale

[pearl seal]

That can't happen

The timepiece was still intact in soul street

[atomic crystal]

Of the dale and Laura ark

[pearl seal]

It breaks in that same level

[atomic crystal]

Time doesn’t exist in the lake

[thorny wedge]

i must be forgetting where we found that out about nicholas, but regardless, if its nicholas, where does the story go? if its albert, it lines up with her being in twp. not to mention rose doesnt have the time piece, so why would nicholas keep her. what would he do with her

[pearl seal]

In the cave
We see the broken piece

[errant estuary]

i cant wait for the pickpocket to be picholas

[azure bay]

depends on whether we are meant to take the achievement at face value. How did it get there? And the rest of the items?

[atomic crystal]

I hate you

[pearl seal]

Nikolas stole it in underground blossom
And he even left an apology letter
just like mr rabbit

[atomic crystal]

Maybe

[azure bay]

you'll have to wait until the world ends

[pearl seal]

Nikolas hid it

[thorny wedge]

i dont think being sorry about your actions is like. an eilander-exclusive thing

[covert wyvern]

.mute @atomic crystal 1h how about you take a little timeout and cool off

[sweet zephyr]

bu11seye_e11is was muted.

[covert wyvern]

Be nicer to your fellow server members

[azure bay]

Nicolas has nothing to do with all that

Rose was kidnapped by Albert so TPW could happen. He had no interest in Laura or her timepiece

[pearl seal]

What just happened?

[errant estuary]

fair

[pearl seal]

Did a message get deleted?

[thorny wedge]

there is no evidence of nicholas anywhere in the game, yeah. theres just no reason to find those conclusions

[errant estuary]

yeah

the vanderbooms are a completely different tale

[thorny wedge]

you still definitely can theorize just for the sake of it, but there's no ground in matters of actually trying to figure out the story

[pearl seal]

Okay we got that cleared about the child lane incident

[pearl seal]

As for this
We saw nikolas himself steal it from Harvey and then got tortured by Harvey

[azure bay]

are you serious?

[errant estuary]

we dont know who the pickpocket is

[pearl seal]

But it's the thief

[errant estuary]

he just kind of resembles nicky

[azure bay]

not very close resemblance, I'd say

[thorny wedge]

but why is the thief nicholas

[pearl seal]

And I'm assuming the train attendant just happens to resemble aldous?

[thorny wedge]

im pretty sure if that was intended the devs would give us at least a slight hint

[azure bay]

no, he is actually Aldous but we have more than looks to prove it

[thorny wedge]

i think they meant that, if you squint, you can kinda see it. they dont literally have the same face

[pearl seal]

I don't know
The same reason why gerald is a bouncer in the white door

[azure bay]

oh my

[pearl seal]

I wasn't genuinely asking

[errant estuary]

also, the pickpocket and nicholas have quite different voice acting (different cadence)

[pearl seal]

Dale had a different voice actor

[errant estuary]

unlike most aldous instances

[azure bay]

and still. He has evidence and somewhat makes sense. The Eilanders don't

[thorny wedge]

they couldve made the face the same, or the voice actor, hair, anything, but they didnt. the white door being a little random doesn't really reach over to other games id say, that's its own thing

[pearl seal]

Why can't this be the same case where voice actors changed?

[azure bay]

funny enough

the voice actor never changed

he voiced all 4 characters

Nicolas, Gerard, the bouncer and the thief

[errant estuary]

nicholas has a different cadence to the pickpocket

[azure bay]

all 4 have difference impressions

[pearl seal]

Aldous looks completely different in the cave and yet he's mr crow
We've seen the game devs capable of making characters look different
So why would they just make a random pickpocket look like Nikolas and have special interest in something related to the lake

Unlike normal pickpockets it seemed he had different agendas, he didn't just run away, he made a deal with Harvey again

[azure bay]

that's due to a global redesign that started around Paradise/Paradox. The conductor has a striking resemblance to the barman from TWD

[pearl seal]

Aldous looked the same in roots
Just different in cave only

The redesign only drastically affected dale and mr crow's form and bob
No one else

[thorny wedge]

yeah the characters may be drawn differently, but aldous still looks very similar across all games to me, i can identify him easily, all the major bits are the same, like the bald head and the sunken eyes and wrinkles. but i really don't see it for nicholas and the thief

like, genuinely

maybe thats on me

[azure bay]

I don't really want to go into design analysis again. Let's just stop at the lack of evedence and sense and move on to different questions

[pearl seal]

Alright

Can we at least talk about the pickpocket and Nikolas from outside the designs?

[untold stump]

Visual resemblance is not a rlly strong argument altogether i think, like for The Lady of the Lake she has no physical resemblance to Elizabeth and yet we can still link the two through Ms Pheasant. So visual resemblance might not even be relevant to link Eilanders to other characters

[pearl seal]

I will stop it entirely if you want but I'm asking for the green light to talk about this

[azure bay]

outside the designs there's nothing really to say, I'm afraid

[errant estuary]

sure

[pearl seal]

I agree with you
But I feel that two characters looking the same can at least hint at something
But I am not necessarily saying it has to be the case

[thorny wedge]

again i genuinely don't think they look the same at all i think they're just two old men

[errant estuary]

pickpocket was probably (wishful thinking on my part to be honest) a person that laura met

him stealing the timepiece could have caused her to have a hard time remembering rose

[azure bay]

I can go deeper. A human stealing either from a bird or an asura makes no sense.

[untold stump]

Well if we look at the 2 Eilanders that possibly got back from corruption David went from a brown to white rabbit and Elizabeth lost her ginger swag so if we could even say that physical resemblance is a factor to contest the being the same person, as the pattern seem to be rebirth in a whole new body ( just like William becoming Laura )

[pearl seal]

Thank you

Mr rabbit is David correct?
And David is Nikolas' son
In birthday mr rabbit steals something from mr crow and then leaves a note apologizing for his crime

The pickpocket does exactly that, he steals something then leaves a note
I feel that a random pickpocket wouldn't just write you an apology
I feel that this is something Nikolas taught David and himself to do

One of the achievements has you looking for an old woman that resembles Margaret, and where does she appear? Right in the place where Nikolas was just imprisoned in
I already know these aren't end all be all evidences and I'm not passing them as such, I'm only speculating
But I feel as though these could be hints at something

[pearl seal]

But another enlightened being stealing from Harvey would suddenly make more sense

[azure bay]

a human stealing from a bird/asura makes no sense. Nicolas just makes no sense in any form.

Rabbit stole something from his own past life. That what his letter was saying. The rest of the characters: the thief, the beggar or the bouncer are just uncontrolled dot connecting and overthinking with no evidence whatsoever

[pearl seal]

That is not what I am saying
I am not using physical appearances as a way to cancel out who someone is, we've seen physical changes happen to corrupted souls and characters being aged up
What I was saying is thay you could use someone's physical appearance to speculate if they're the same perosn, in this case both the pickpocket and Nikolas looking a little bit similar

[azure bay]

the pattern is far-fetched until further notice

[pearl seal]

Would you at least agree that they look very similar to the Eilanders?

[pearl seal]

I don't disagree there

[errant estuary]

why did mr owl let lady of the lake back into the theatre

[azure bay]

at that rate any character can look very similar to the Eilanders. Simply because they are old women or men with various facial hairstyles

[errant estuary]

if i was him id file a restraining order on both her and mr rabbit

[pearl seal]

That's not what my point was.

[azure bay]

and that's not enough

[pearl seal]

Yet she's there
As evidenced from Bob's dream

[errant estuary]

true

but why did he not

[azure bay]

We know nothing really on the songstress. As far as we're concerned, the real Pheasant is meant to be the lake ghost

[pearl seal]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree until further evidence

But back to the main discussion
Nik- I mean the pickpocket, hid the time piece that was still intact in soul station

[untold stump]

Yea maybe Owl just gave her those clothes because it reminded him of the only family memeber he actually misses

[azure bay]

I agree that the songstress has a very high chance to be Pheassant, I agree that Rabbit returned. But the rest are rubbish for now

[errant estuary]

oh. now i am sad

[thorny wedge]

you'd think someone who owns a therapy institution would know how to cope better fr

[pearl seal]

I used to think that the songstress could be Jakob's mother until I realized her past life had to do with a hat that ms pheasant wore (by the way what was the 4th item in the theater puzzle? A hat, a heart and a baby what's the forth one)
But that's when I realized that it makes more sense for her to be pheasant and because Jakob's mom is part of mr owl still

[errant estuary]

for me it was the miss pheasant leitmotif that made me think she might be

[azure bay]

If Caroline was part of Jakob, we would know it. But no, samsara denies soul fusion, Owl identifies himself exclusively as Jakob and he doesn't have a clue how to make elixir.

[thorny wedge]

to me it was using the "substance of my past lives" wording that david used and the dress. my standards aren't very high

[pearl seal]

Okay but we're back to the fact that the hat is a ms pheasant thing and not a caroline thing

[untold stump]

Yea Elizabeth seemed to be the only one to actually help Jakob in Paradise so makes sense Owl would help her first. The question is did he try to help David too or did he just learn about finding substance from his past live on his own ?

[pearl seal]

By the way what was the forth item?

[errant estuary]

a shell

[pearl seal]

Oh okay

[azure bay]

never said otherwise

[untold stump]

So in Paradox when we see the figures of Caroline and Jakob when putting on the Owl mask, Caroline is here to show that she is the main reason Owl exists and Jakob is the only host ?

/gen

[thorny wedge]

honestly maybe?

[pearl seal]

Yet she was one of the guests who got eaten

[azure bay]

It was just a half of the easter egg. The other half reveals Dale and Laura in Paradise under similar cirqumstances. So it's about elixir generations

[errant estuary]

i just considered that the pistol might have been to rub in that she’s spineless and wouldnt question that there was a gun to her face (in his mind, she knew what was going to happen, and did nothing)

[untold stump]

OOO I forgot about that yea that changes a lot

So thats why Caroline is just permadeath

[azure bay]

not sure

I'd say that her fate is unknown

[errant estuary]

that, or caroline’s content with how she is

[pearl seal]

In the cave we see it's broken meaning that soul street happens before the cave which is where Laura is still a corrupted soul

The ending of soul street also shows she's still a corrupted soul

It has to be before 1972 of winter

Or during

Who knows

But not after

[azure bay]

the crate is an easter egg. More so, a teaser. Teaser easter eggs have a record of not being canon. I consider the crate but it needs further context

[pearl seal]

Even if I were to agree on the crate thing I'd still put out that Laura not being complete at the end of soul street shows that she still has yet to be in the cave

Because she is still also corrupted there

She also rides the elevator with crow

That's 1972

The lake (ub blossom) happens in 1972

[azure bay]

My bet is that Souls St. Is about Laura being broken after she lost the elixir lottery to Dale

after The Cave, after Hotel2

[untold stump]

So after the day of the Lake ?

[azure bay]

yes

[pearl seal]

Again it's still shown to happen before she rides the elevator

[azure bay]

the lake is the place where time does not exist

[pearl seal]

By the way
When does the past within future happen?

[azure bay]

1984

[errant estuary]

oh my gid thos is just like-

im put in a straitjacket and thrown in the paradox room

that’s it

that’s my rl theory

[untold stump]

Since the metros are only taken by Harvey and skip massive periods of time, I'd say they are meant to show time travelling so the order of the stations does not have to follow a linear timeline

[pearl seal]

Laura was with you on the station metro
The metro shows snippets of real events
Like Bob in the metro before

And she was still a corrupted soul

[pearl seal]

I believe you're half right
They don't have to follow the timeline directly or in detail
But I believe it's linear

[untold stump]

Also Harvey has been confirmed to be able to time travel, thats also why I think its possible for it not to be linear

[errant estuary]

i like when we get to look at the memories

[azure bay]

we are speaking specifically about 2 different events witnessed on 2 different visits to a place beyond time.

One of which shows the final development of Laura and the other showing as if it was reversed.

[untold stump]

But I dont think the Soul Street happens after the day of the Lake

[errant estuary]

and i wish we got to see the guests’ memories

[pearl seal]

This is too complicated with not much information out there convincing me

But I respect your opinion

I will have to wait until the new game sequel explains it

[azure bay]

in the normal ending Laura came to a peace with herlsef. She found Roses. She's happy now and ready to live a happy life she never had.

in the secret scene she throws her life away still wondering where Rose went

[pearl seal]

Same

[azure bay]

then let's address the synopsis

"Solve various puzzles, find the correct metro to board and uncover one of Laura’s timelines..."

[pearl seal]

We do not know if it was an alternate timeline
It happens after the normal ending so I am not sure

I know alternate endings exist like in paradox where the outcomes are vastly different

Again I'll want to wait it out this time

[azure bay]

"Travel to 7 unique metro stations, each station a representation of Laura Vanderboom’s life, memories and potential future"

[pearl seal]

Hm

I see

Okay I'm convinced

So the mr crow and laura elevator ending is an alternative future

?

[untold stump]

Wait so if ub is showing us what happens if Laura loses against Dale do u think that means in the actual Day of the Lake she wont lose (whereas this means she wins or her and Dale find another solutiuon )

[azure bay]

no, I just think that it happens either before or during Soul St.

[untold stump]

Paradox is meant to show the outcomes of Dale's choices so makes sense for it to have branching endings but with ub it seems to follow one story only so I dont see why should we put another timeline on top of it at the very end

[azure bay]

I think Seasons and UB are the alternative. A good ending Laura deserved by really working for it

[pearl seal]

That is where I do not agree
Laura as a corrupted soul travels with you inside it

She eithee uncovers the truth there or the secret ending shows she's going up with mr crow

[errant estuary]

maybe the guests got killed in the order of who felt the most remorseful

[pearl seal]

but it was mostly Harvey doing the heavy lifting

[pearl seal]

I believe the achievement ending is the canon or official ending

I.e, deer being the first and boar being the last

[errant estuary]

yeah

[untold stump]

You cant convince me Nicholas felt any remorse that man is a monster. I do agree on Gerard being last tho, its possible he didnt even notice that Jakob was back during all of the plagues

[azure bay]

UB is a metaphorical mess. it can show anything deemed fit and skip anything unrelated to the main idea

[errant estuary]

nah, i meant that least remorseful(mr deer) gets no vacation, and most remorseful gets vacation

[azure bay]

like Laura's trip to The Lake

I waited for it

was sure about getting it

especially considering Harvey being there too

but nope

somehow it's not that relevant

Laura died after the break-up

[errant estuary]

sorrow cross might be a “representation” of laura’s spiral into madness

[azure bay]

yes and until long we were convinced her CS encounter at the lake contributed into it

[errant estuary]

probably did

[atomic crystal]

I apologize. I did not mean to offend anyone and will refrain from these types of remarks.

[errant estuary]

seeing a shadow creature is not any help to laura

[covert wyvern]

Cool, thanks!

[carmine field]

Well, anthropomorphic animals are called that way in Theatre

[thorny wedge]

ah yeah then its official thatll do

i should reply theatre its such a good one

[carmine field]

The Sanskrit word on Mr. Crow's portrait is pronounced "Asura"

[azure bay]

I'd say, it's semiofficial. They were never called that in other languages but Sanskrit

[carmine field]

this 👆

[atomic crystal]

Wonder if Sanskrit is on google translate

[thorny wedge]

actually it seems it is

[atomic crystal]

lol

The lore is easy now

I promise

[dark pawn]

It’s hindi

Idk may be Sanskrit

I’m very poor in Hindi, my mom is Indian she translates the rusty lake words I tell him haha

[atomic crystal]

I guess that works

[dark pawn]

She is worried how I get these dark and twisted words 😂

[atomic crystal]

lol

[carmine field]

it's sanskrit

I'm sure of it

btw, most of them refer to the realms/stages of the samsara wheel

[dark pawn]

How do people become animal hybrids?

[azure bay]

would you prefer a ready answer or being sent looking for it in the right game?

[dark pawn]

I would like a concrete answer haha

[azure bay]

you need to be enlightened

[dark pawn]

Like in paradise?

[azure bay]

either via elixir or some lake-related ritual

[dark pawn]

Ahahhh ok

[azure bay]

In Paradise we saw both btw

[dark pawn]

If you survive after the elixir what happens?

[azure bay]

you become a hybrid animal

[dark pawn]

Now makes sense

Thank you

[azure bay]

there was 1 exception though

[dark pawn]

Which is?

[azure bay]

James' dog got only longevity. It didn't become a hybrid. I think it has to do something with being an animal

[dark pawn]

Ohh ok got it

Thank you

[pearl seal]

Did we?
We only saw the Elixir
The second one by the family was done off screen
We only saw the memory of a failed sacrifice

And yes burning down Jakob was the Elixir method

[azure bay]

explain

[pearl seal]

When Caroline burned down
She did not get enlightened,
When Nikolas offered the sacrifice they got cursed.

But

When Jakob entered all the ten memories, each one being a memory related to the ingredient of the elixir, he was enlightened despite being supposedly the sacrifice

The method Jakob became mr owl was through the elixir that he made by dropping all ten memories down the well

It was the Elixir method

But the method that the hotel guests became enlightened was by "sacrificing" Jakob

And that happens off screen

[errant estuary]

i want to ask you two, do you think the plagues are just a thing, or do you think it was from sacrificing caroline?

[floral mauve]

now we are at the juicy part

[pearl seal]

I think it happens after they present the lake the memories of Caroline and the lake refuses the sacrifice

[floral mauve]

there are counter argument for both

[errant estuary]

i think it is just a thing, because paradise would not exist without great sacrifice, and the day of the lake is a thing that was expected

[floral mauve]

if it is the case, why there are paintings, and plagues are actually part of the ritual with opportunity for the family which isnt a negative thing

[azure bay]

1. The day of the lake is meant to come after the plagues. It has nothing to do with a wrong sacrifice.

2. Just looking into Caroline's memories and flushing them down the lake has next to nothing to do with the elixir creation. Nor being sacrificed. Jakob's death simply enlightened the family. Almost onscreen

The elixir, on the other hand, was made by Caroline in very ending. So was her sacrifice. It was all pretty visual and becomes obvious as you look into it

[pearl seal]

I'm not denying the plagues being a thing that happens every once in a while
But why is it that the plagues never happen until Nikolas offered the memories of Caroline to the lake

The sacrifice was there
So why did the lake refuse

[errant estuary]

caroline was a middle child /hj

[thorny wedge]

the lake is picky /j

[pearl seal]

So we agree that Jakob transforming was an elixir method correct?

[floral mauve]

for jakob certainly

[azure bay]

yes, and sacrificing him was a separate ritual that boosted the cultists

[pearl seal]

Okay but

[floral mauve]

but for family is different

[errant estuary]

it was definitely the first instance of the elixir

[pearl seal]

I agree the family tranformed by sacrificing Jakob

But where do we see it on screen nowhere? It happens after the game

[blazing elm]

hi

[azure bay]

we see a part of it. It counts for me

[errant estuary]

i think they died and got reborn later

[pearl seal]

We see a failed memory of it though

[blazing elm]

are you talking about them sacrificing jakob

[errant estuary]

which may be why all of them are thirty-fiftysomethings

[blazing elm]

they sacrificed caroline too though

[pearl seal]

They did not transform into animals on screen
That is what I have meant
Unless there is a secret video I'm unaware of.

[blazing elm]

werent they reincarnations or smth

[azure bay]

we saw the sacrifice part, there's nothing else to see, it has to be it

[pearl seal]

Again I agree

I don't think we're communicating here

I'm asking if we see any transformation?

[azure bay]

we don't know that. It's technically possible but we're also used to instant transformation

[errant estuary]

no

[pearl seal]

Is there a secret ending that shows it or a YouTube link or ARG?

[blazing elm]

its pretty weak though

they sacrificed caroline too

why didnt they transform after sacrificing her

and they may be countless more people theysacrficied before

[pearl seal]

Oh okay thanks

[azure bay]

because she wasn't the firstborn

that's the ritual

[blazing elm]

wasnt it the plague thingie

[azure bay]

it was both

[pearl seal]

I have a question as well

[blazing elm]

then why did they even sacrifice caroline

[errant estuary]

im assuming that the paradise version of turning into a furry requires them to dedicate their lives to the lake for a shot at a good next life

[azure bay]

we don't really know. Not even when it happened

[blazing elm]

There might be some truth to what ur saying but its still weak for me

[errant estuary]

caroline mightve been to extract her memories, and also to lure jakob back

[blazing elm]

yall are forgetting smth important

[pearl seal]

Why did Nikolas want to sacrifice jakob almost immediately, but in the memories or Caroline we see David and Elizabeth older in the first memory?

[blazing elm]

jakob were about to be sacrficied

then caroline offered herself

[pearl seal]

It means time has passed before killing Caroline

[blazing elm]

so i think it is extremely weak

also this lowkey refutes the firsborn thingie then why would they even accept caroline

[errant estuary]

no idea

[blazing elm]

they wouldve just tell her to shut up since women had no rşghts anyways

[azure bay]

Jakob's sacrifice was the only real opportunity we know of. There's nothing else communicated that could do the thing.

[errant estuary]

but the lake is a vicious twofaced prick that requires constant feeding

[blazing elm]

Also tell me if im wrong but as i got it the lake got mad since thye sacrificed caroline instead of jakob

so

[errant estuary]

the lake seems to just want all memories

but it might be mad

[blazing elm]

So what is the conclusion

[azure bay]

there was a prophecy. Basically "the day of the lake (when you make a sacrifice) will take place after the 9th plague".

Even the wrong sacrifice would be made only after the plagues

[blazing elm]

are we good on the idea that they didnt transform

[pearl seal]

I'm confused on paradise

[blazing elm]

same

i thing it is too artistic for us to understand

like it could be interpeted in 100 ways and still be valid

[azure bay]

dudes it's mostly simple

[blazing elm]

i reccomend connecting paradise w other games

[pearl seal]

Nikolas wanted to kill Jakob when he was young correct?
So why is it in the first memory that David and Elizabeth are older than just children?

[untold stump]

So when the Dale day of the Lake comes will we have 9 plagues as well ?

[pearl seal]

Why did he wait so much to kill Caroline?

[floral mauve]

there is still a problem though, it is unlikely the first 9 plagues occured already when Caroline got sacrificed the first time

[azure bay]

I hope so

[blazing elm]

idk but i think its lowkey artistic

since rusty lake makes arts our of their games

[azure bay]

otherwise the devs srewed up the lore consistency

[blazing elm]

the thing is in a good story telling u wouldnt dump all the info

it needs to be interpeted by the one ur telling it to and still be atleast qa bit clear

[pearl seal]

Or maybe the plagues was only a constant on the island and when the hotel was rebuilt then it changes to another thing

[azure bay]

a good storytelling wouldn't even appear to contradict the info dumped before

[blazing elm]

wdym paradise is the oldest game in the chronolgy

like it is the oldest piece of lore

[azure bay]

I mean that there's another day of the lake coming

[blazing elm]

idk if theres another game taking place before the invention of america

[pearl seal]

Mammoths

[errant estuary]

okay so (my assumption):
it’s a lifelong dedication to satisfy the lake, and part of it is feeding it memories
which has to be extracted
so she may have been killed when plague one hit them

[blazing elm]

I thing we cant directly compare paradise which is a family in an island and a 20 century hotel so

[blazing elm]

same

[pearl seal]

But they're built in the same landmass

[thorny wedge]

dont we see paradise transform into the hotel in one of the games (the end of paradise i think?)

[errant estuary]

would david and elizabeth try to run off after paradise?

[untold stump]

Maybe Nicholas thought at first he could replace Jakob with Caroline as the sacrifice (CArolin couldve fooled him since she looks like she was the one that gathered the info about the Lake) but then realised vhe didnt turn into his fursonas and was like "well i guess i need to kill my son after all" and called him back on the island

[blazing elm]

I think that the paradise is simple:
Theres a tradition on an island to sacrifice ppl for their memories to satisfy the lake or whatever which will then bless and reincarnate u as a better creature
The lake sends plagues when it wants sacrifices
Jakob as about to be sacrificedd but then caroline offered herself
The years pass after coraline assist jakob in her escapee and plagues strike again and then thats the time they notice javcob of his mothers death
then in the last plague (i thing the firstborn thing was ment to fit into the plague of the egypt concept) they sacrifice him

thats my theory

sorry for the typos even my own eyes bled

[azure bay]

Here's the story.
There was a blood cult with enlightenment as their end goal.
For that they needed to sacrifice their 1stborn.
Caroline invented the elixir.
When they tried to kill Jakob she offered herself and somehow convinced them.
Jakob left.
Caroline's following exact fate in unclear. Except for at some point she died.
Her death was an excuse to summon Jakob back to the island and kill him properly this time.
His death enlightened the family.
Caroline's ghost outsmarted evryone, prepared an elixir and sacrificed herself to enlighten Jakob.
Jakob built the hotel and killed his former family for his future schemes.

[blazing elm]

though she was prob sacrificed since she told nick to take her instead and then nick didnt sacrifice jakob

[azure bay]

that's the thing. It's really unclear

[blazing elm]

and also prob jakob didnt even know that his mother died until the plagues stroke again and as u said they used it to lure him in

[azure bay]

On one hand, yes, it's possible. But on the other hand, she's implied to die recently and we even have a relatively fresh memory of her burial

the evidence is conflicting

[errant estuary]

caroline pretending that she was the eldest sibling in her family in order to convince nicholas to sacrifice her instead of jakob

[blazing elm]

i dont know of any evidence telling that caroline passed recently

like they burn her at the stake we could not know

[errant estuary]

https://tenor.com/view/джокер-говорит-в-камеру-и-смеётся-the-joker-speaks-into-the-camera-and-laughs-хит-леджер-heath-ledger-тёмный-рыцарь-gif-18319594114711288587

[untold stump]

Yea so Caroline seemed like the one who actually studied the Lake so its not impossible Nicholas has always listened to her when it comes to how the Lake works and she lied to him abouit who needs to be sacrificed to save Jakob. And eventually after realising he got fooled Nicholas realised he had to kill the firstborn and called back Jakob

[blazing elm]

only her bones stay

[azure bay]

on contrary. During the burial the children are grown-up

[blazing elm]

we cant see the burial that much though since they wore masks and robes

or its that plagues came back extremely fast

[untold stump]

Nicholas did not seem as much of a "scientist" as Caroline, he didnt want to know how it worked he just wantedc to sacrifice ppl and get enlightened

[blazing elm]

or basically the siblings already had their puberty when they buried her or smth

[azure bay]

aat least they are definitely NOT their children-selves.

[blazing elm]

yea i mean they arent toddlers so

and an adulescent is generally about the same size of an adult

by adolescent i mean late ones

also ppl used to be older back then bc of the stress

[azure bay]

David was 15-17 during the game

[blazing elm]

i mean yeah if he is 15-17 and that old i dont see a reason for him to look like an adult in his 13

also as i said ppl used to age faster so

[azure bay]

I really doubt the devs know about that

[blazing elm]

idk maybe they were too lazy to draw

but atleast theres a 1 year gap of jakobs escape and arrival

[azure bay]

My point is, If Caroline was buried after Jakob's escape, they children and Margaret would look like their portrait from plague 1

[azure bay]

whole 15 years

[blazing elm]

how old even is jake

[azure bay]

20

[blazing elm]

then theres at most 5

and least 1

assuming that isnt the extremes we can say there was approx 3 years

[azure bay]

You miss the point

Jakob escaped at 5

returned 15 years later

[blazing elm]

then how do they have his portrait at his 15

i got a bit confused ngl

[azure bay]

it's his portrait "15 years ago"

[blazing elm]

oop

sorry then

but he looked much older imma check rq

[errant estuary]

yeah he is like twenty

[azure bay]

Paradox revealed his birth year

[blazing elm]

oop just realized

but that doesnt condtadict still

[errant estuary]

yeah, winter of 1975

right?

[blazing elm]

instead of assuming that he escaped 15 years ago

we can assume he escaped later so

[azure bay]

he looked a lot like his portrait back then. So should have his siblings and grandma. And they simply don't during the burial.

making it not the year of his escape

[errant estuary]

eilander ranking: who looks like they are gonna die instantly

(not margaret)

[azure bay]

Gerard

He already died once

[errant estuary]

it is pretty funny that everyone but margaret looks like they may topple over from consumption

[thorny wedge]

margaret has been on that goddamn island for like 70 years there's a reason she's still alive she's not gonna die to another puny wave of some measly plague

[errant estuary]

elizabeth drags around the shovel when she’s feeling anxious

[azure bay]

except for a plague named fly-man David

that's too much even for her

screw the mantis but fly-man David is a different sort of shit

[errant estuary]

margaret watching her descendants almost die again

https://tenor.com/view/old-lady-screaming-scream-old-jumpscare-gif-24203206

[thorny wedge]

its how she trains them to stay vigilant and be resilient (now everyone has trauma)

[errant estuary]

margaret had enough of this shit, and is just rolling with it

[thorny wedge]

margaret just rolls with it and has jakob do everything like all of this isnt her fault for not moving away from the lake decades ago /j

[errant estuary]

margaret when elizabeth manages to somehow outlive her by five years: 😡🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

[neon marsh]

i have a question about the reverse mermaid

[errant estuary]

what question?

[thorny wedge]

the fish with legs in harveys box i think

[neon marsh]

are we being led to believe that it used to be a full human?

[thorny wedge]

i dont think we're being lead to believe much of anything about it

[neon marsh]

okay

[thorny wedge]

fish are just a very common motif, to me it feels like one of those things that just happens in rusty lake games

[errant estuary]

it seems to be jakob when he retires (he’s now in his slut era (affectionate))

[thorny wedge]

but there are totally some theories to be made there

[neon marsh]

i was just thinking about how jakob is implied to be on the trajectory to become a fish/fish-person

[azure bay]

no, there's nothing to indicate that. It was just Owl's current body with various heads on it

[thorny wedge]

i always saw the mr owl fish head more as a metaphorical representation of the great beyond or such, especially since it's being shown to dale who we know for sure has a phobia of fish, like mr owl doesn't entirely know what will happen, or can't or isn't willing to explain it

does it help explain the harvey's box leg fish? no<3

she's an enigma and honestly i love that for her

[neon marsh]

what about the leg fish in cave?

[thorny wedge]

it's fine nowhere i already know you disagree with me on that but it's just my two cents

[azure bay]

too deep. His past and his present were simply his different incarnations

[neon marsh]

how do you know?

[errant estuary]

damn

[azure bay]

we give him past mind. He adopts Jakob's head, his past incarnation.

we give him present mind. He adopts Owl's head, his present incarnation.

we give him future mind. He adopts a fish head, and it has to be his future incarnation

[errant estuary]

jakob deserves to be a leg fish

he’s had a lot of stress on the job, i want him to just vibe as a leg fish

[thorny wedge]

i genuinely think that's subjective. i don't think anything's for certain, even if it would reflect the other two incarnations.

[azure bay]

I'm afraid, it's overthinking

he asks to show him his past and we show him his past

[thorny wedge]

i mean that's the first thing that came to mind when i first played the game so it's not like i had to brainstorm it

it was intuitive to me

again its subjective

[azure bay]

our brains are pattern-seeking machines

or rather

pattern-finding

we often see things that aren't there

[thorny wedge]

look we can agree to disagree, i'm more than willing to, but don't try to invalidate the way my brain works because i understand a surrealist game differently

it makes the whole interaction really uncomfortable

[azure bay]

the devs are sending a message

a vague message

but still a message

in order to receive it right we need to consider the interference

[errant estuary]

there definitely is some irony to the fact that mr owl is gonna turn into a fish

[thorny wedge]

i think ill just go take a breather

[errant estuary]

seeya

[carmine field]

I don't think Dale's ichthyophobia is that relevant
But if I had to link it to Mr. Owl's fish head, it would be like a subtle way of showing Dale that Mr. Owl's future isn't going to be good anyway

the animal realm in Samsara (at least according to Buddhism) is not a good stage indeed

At least from my interpretation, the animal play in Theatre matches the idea that animals are accommodated in a state without consciousness, living only to eat and reproduce

As for the mermaid, it could just be a reference to Magritte, but if I were to fit her into one of the realms, I would probably put her in the animal realm

In Harvey's Box, the mermaid was originally just a fish, after all

[deft haven]

If anyone can understand this tell me please

[azure bay]

horizontal axis is the in-universe time. Vertical axis is the release order. Full color arrows are physical movements of characters. Chalk arrows are time travel/cube travel/flashbacks

[deft haven]

Oh, ok

[untold stump]

New pfp nowhere ! Monocle acquired

[sudden dust]

how does the ending of ub impact the theorized rl timeline before ub’s release?
||(its been a while since i played so i might get some things wrong) the secret ending of ub shows that harvey goes to the hotel, and thats the start of hotel
hotel was originally theorized to be around roots’ time.
but the ending of ub is far after roots and likely after/during tpw too.
even if we take the time-travelling aspect of the ending and say that harvey went to hotel while laura was a child (the bat is at child lane i think) its still far after roots’ ending.
i dont know much about the fanmade timeline but would this mean that hotel started around roots’ end? is harvey going to the hotel again for another reason? if it is really the start of hotel, how do we take care of laura and go to the hotel at the same time? keep in mind that we stay day and night at the hotel for around a week||
maybe it’s something im not getting, im not sure tbh

[dusk comet]

|| Mr owl says "welcome back harvey"
So proably it's not start of hotel ||

[barren cove]

I think it's the next ||GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LAKE|| and ||owl needs Harvey there|| for some reason

[dusk comet]

Maybe next game is ||hotel 2?||

[barren cove]

||It could be the start of Hotel, but that would mean that Harvey was actually able to turn into their Asura form during Laura's life, and that doesn't make sense if we look at Seasons or Harvey's Box. Or that would mean Harvey was with Laura for some time, being able to turn into an Asura, time traveled to Hotel, died, probably lost their ability to turn into an Asura, time traveled back to Laura. But that doesn't make sense if we consider the fact that the cubes are collected after the game is over and the fact that Owl probably wouldn't interrupt Harvey's mission right after it started||

[honest brook]

I feel like I should know this, but what does the "day of the Lake" mean?

[sudden dust]

iirc it’s a specific day mentioned in paradise where they have to sacrifice someone to get enlightenment i think

[honest brook]

That’s what I thought, I just thought that there was more to it than that

[untold stump]

It seems to be how a new ruler of the Lake is risen to power, we saw it with Owl in Paradise and the same thing will probably happen to Dale in a future gae

[sudden dust]

i really need to replay some rl games

[azure bay]

Hotel was always 1893. We have a solid date. Besides, Owl said "Welcome back"

[neon marsh]

does anyone know if there's a connection between mr. rabbit's puzzle in hotel and david in paradise? i was able to find connections or repeating elements between all the other eilanders and their hotel counterparts

[azure bay]

Did you finish Paradise?

[barren cove]

I think they meant gameplay elements

Like Mr Boar and Gerard both having a puzzle where you make a burger

Not just the ||ending sequence||

[untold stump]

I think Mr Rabbit's hand appear in the flies plague. Probably not lore significant and just an Easter egg but if that's what you're looking for here it is !

[errant estuary]

david and mr rabbit are rather unpreditctable fellows

[untold stump]

And they both do magic tricks. Rabbit is a lot nicer than David tho

[errant estuary]

i like to think that he had a better childhood plus he’s a grown ass adult

of course he’s a bit less annoying than david

[azure bay]

honestly... I realized don't really recall David being especially mean

[errant estuary]

right yeah

but he is a bit… i dunno… siblingy

[thorny wedge]

i mean the "i hope im not the one that dies tonight" while knowing full well the plague is called the death of the firstborn is pretty brutal /lh

regardless. teenager. i too would be a dickhead if i was a teenager with a thats family like that

[errant estuary]

david: i hope im not the one that dies tonight >:3
elizabeth: WE’RE GONNA KILL YOU

[neon marsh]

does the lady of the lake title apply to all of the women of paradise? because caroline is clearly referred to as the lady of the lake, but ms. pheasant wears the lady of the lake dress that is seen in theater

[sudden dust]

im guessing caroline is the lady of the lake in a religious or prophetic kind of sense
maybe lady of the lake is a role that caroline has and that ms pheasant and the theatre lady are playing as

[neon marsh]

that makes sense

[azure bay]

The devs say that Caroline and Laura are both ladies of the lake. They said nothing about the songstress or Pheasant

[honest brook]

why does Mr Rabbit in Paradox look so different from how he looks in Hotel?

is it because hes wearing a mask

[azure bay]

For now there's no solid reason to believe it's a mask

Rabbit died and was somewhat reborn

[honest brook]

Because when you do the channel 369 it looks a lot like a mask

[azure bay]

it's fanmade

[neon marsh]

are the animal people (i.e. mr. crow, mr. owl, etc) considered part of tiryagyoni (the domain of animals)?

[azure bay]

they are bluntly called asuras in Theatre

[errant estuary]

he’s a corrupted soul who’s masquerading as alive

[azure bay]

I believe the blood was real. I think he's gradually fighting corruption

[neon marsh]

sorry. i can't read

[errant estuary]

hmmmmmm

i wonder why the lady of the lake is just lounging about

mr rabbit is fighting for his fucking life

and she is just

vibing

[azure bay]

If she is really Ms. Pheasant, she seems to have succeeded already

[errant estuary]

either she has a skin suit, or she just got special treatment

[azure bay]

what special treatment?

[errant estuary]

revival privileges

[azure bay]

what privileges?

[errant estuary]

idk, “you get to be revived”

[azure bay]

we know nothing yet. Could be just more successful than Rabbit, could just somehow go back in time, could be just a pretending actress

[errant estuary]

true

i just think she’s really funny

everyone out here suffering

and the lady of the lake is just hanging out

[neon marsh]

i find it interesting that she always has her eyes closed

[azure bay]

technically, Ms. Pheasant is down the lake with the rest

[errant estuary]

right

[zealous quail]

Are the events of arles connected to rusty lake at all or does it just exist

[errant estuary]

it’s just kind of there (and also is an example of the kind of person who’s very likely to get corrupted)

[zealous quail]

Interesting

What do you mean by kind of person? Like what about van Gogh makes him likely to get corrupted?

[errant estuary]

he was very unwell, and the corrupted souls are seemingly people who died particularly sad or violent deaths

or who were in a lot of distress when getting cubes extracted

[azure bay]

I also have a theory that van Gogh has at least been to the lake and at most was cured at the hotel

[pearl seal]

Is the lake in Arles or Rusty Lake?

Arles looked nothing like the Rusty Lake town but the hotel and the rowman both appear there

[azure bay]

we have no idea about any settlements near the lake

but Arles likely wouldn't be one

[languid sable]

In the updated version of cube escape arles they add "what do I remember" when starting the level hinting that arles is a cube or at the very least a memory

Usually memories can merge events together
What we see in Arles is probably the Rhône and the memories may have shown the hotel because maybe memories are overlapping or someone messed with the memory

Or it could be as simple as a case of Van Gogh taking a psychedelic and hallucinating
opium was used before in the series

[languid sable]

Are you by any chance nowherenest on YouTube?

[errant estuary]

also there’s maybe the parallels between vincent and elizabeth/miss pheasant

[azure bay]

I am. Funny enough, I've been here long before I started the channel

[languid sable]

Nice!

You're one of the only youtubers I've seen discussing rusty lake lore

There was rusty lake explained but I haven't seen them upload so much

[errant estuary]

razz stopped posting because of a bit of personal stuff as far as i know

[azure bay]

Yeah, RazzJazz is worth checking out

[errant estuary]

there’s also stigmata wood’s analysis, which i will send the first part of
https://youtu.be/igYZhfc61Gw?si=LqlyVaJbghh5I1YJ

it is still in progress though

it was really interesting

[azure bay]

👀

[errant estuary]

with the idea that the lake is a malicious usurper of the samsara cycle that tricks people to do what it wants, and making them think being an asura is ascension, when it secretly is slightly worse than being human

[languid sable]

I'm no stranger to that discussion

It is common among alot of theorists to hypothesize that the lake represents a place of torture ot damnation seeing as how the corrupted souls are stuck to it

[azure bay]

Ok, since I'm here, I have a little trivia piece to share

[languid sable]

Am I the only one who sees the parallels between this and berserk?

[languid sable]

you mean you are NOWhere

Please laugh

[azure bay]

Recently we found out that "what do I remembver?" was a thing on mobile versions for years before CE Collection

[languid sable]

It was an update to the flash games yes

Before the collection update as well

[azure bay]

I mean looong before the collection was even announced

Basically as long as I remember

[languid sable]

And before the achievement system was added as well

Yeah I know

[azure bay]

Ok, now speaking of lore, I wouldn't explain away the lake in Arles by blurry memories.

We could doubt previously but now TPW heavily implies that cubes aren't subjectives POVs of memory owners but objective pocket realities that can even put the reality of yours in a pocket

(nor I'm saying that the lake was there for real)

[azure bay]

.

[languid sable]

Keep in mind that the memories can still be tampered with

Sarah white was able to do that in the white door
And mr owl was able to change Dale's birthday outcome in cube escape birthday

[errant estuary]

yeah

that, plus the fact that theyre also small pocket dimensions fucks me up a bit

just

along with how it is portrayed in twd

(the extraction)

imagine having to experience something horrible, just as vividly as last time, with a sense of deja vu

but it can turn all wrong

[languid sable]

I agree the memories aren't subjective povs as you put it
But it does not negate that they can still add inaccurate information

[errant estuary]

also

perception is in certain lights, still reality

[azure bay]

Not sure about Sarah (she wasn't dealing with cubes directly) but Birthday isn't very different from TPW.

Yes, naturally you have power over the reality inside a cube. But this power can be uno reversed under right circumstances.

And this makes the cubes somehow real. An illusion cannot alter reality in return

[languid sable]

Furthermore the phrasing "what do I remember" makes me think that it's another case of bob hill (earlier case...?) where Van Gogh is trying to see what he can remember and that it's not just captured memories
The phrasing implies amnesia and forgetfulness and trying to recollect those memories

[azure bay]

Don't take me wrong

Most of the cubes are technically memories

[languid sable]

I think Van Gogh is a prototype Bob Hill

[azure bay]

They are still taken from people's heads

but Seasons and by association Arles are about people entering their cubes to do something about them.

what's more, Laura most likely stayed inside her cube

as I'm thinking about it, it's impossible to distinguish the reality inside a cube from the reality outside

[languid sable]

I know that
If mr crow enters Dale's memory he will see Dale's memories
Not mr crow's pov of what happened
It's objectively what's being captured
But strictly through the psyche and lenses of Dale
Mr crow can only do so much to alter that psyche but he can alter how he remembers what happened
But in the end, mr crow can't change that birthday into a holiday anniversary for example

[azure bay]

we've never seen a traveler assuming other person's body

[languid sable]

I never said that

[azure bay]

I mean inside the cube

you are speaking of a pov

the pov implies all set of senses

including a sense of one's own body

[languid sable]

Ah

Then that is not what I meant

[azure bay]

Hotel makes me think that it's possible to dive into a cube as an incorporeal observer

and travelling as far away as you want

at least Harvey seemingly went that far

[languid sable]

Didn't we see that already in the past within?

Future rose was able to observe the Cube from the future
I know they were the same person but still

[azure bay]

here, I'm sure Roses were repeatedly switching bodies instead of staying incorporeal

if it's the ending you are speaking of

[languid sable]

And while I'm unsure about whether mr crow really is the grandfather of Dale
I still believe that mr owl's inclusion isn't in the original event of birthday

[azure bay]

I agree but it doesn't contradict what I'm saying

You can change the cubes

The biggest revelation of TPW is, your reality is a also a cube and can be changed

[languid sable]

I meant that we've seen people that aren't the owners of the memory being able to interfere with and access that memory

I have my doubts on Harvey in the Easter Egg of birthday at the ending

[azure bay]

I didn't mention it

I was speaking of Harvey entering the white future Cube in the end of Hotel.

He was inside, he did go beyond the assumed cube boundaried to see the lake's surface

[errant estuary]

me repressing and deluding myself (i’m not delusional i am changing my cubes, and with that, all of a reality /j):

[azure bay]

I'd say "A reality". Because it's now obvious that the reality outside the cube is intact by default

[errant estuary]

right

[languid sable]

I know
I was expanding on my point about mr owl and entering the memories

[errant estuary]

corrected

[untold stump]

If it's just for Harvey that we saw this, it might just be connected to them. Like diving into cubes could be how they seem to have this time travel ability

[languid sable]

I doubt that

There was no indication the white cube had anything to do with Harvey

[azure bay]

it's only the mind that enters a cube. The body stays outside half-dormant (judging by Nicolas)

[azure bay]

ok, I see now. This case is a bit complicated. In Bday specifically, Owl speaks to Dale from some kind of a future. Not sure which future but it's 1966 in comparison with Bday's 1939. The devs recently said there are some unrevealed secrets in 1966 so I'm thinking this date matters

[languid sable]

Well
Regardless of the relevance of 1966
The snowglobe event shows that what you see in cubes can be accessed by other individuals but it doesn't change the core memory or more accurately the "setting" the cube is showing

So I think we're on the same page

[azure bay]

only if you are thinking the multiverse of cubes because the reality outside the cube also turned out to be a cube in TPW

[languid sable]

I'm beginning to see a lot of new parallels today along with existing ideas being affirmed for me

Do you think the communication between Dale and Mr Owl could have been a parallel between Albert and Rose from the past within?

Another parallel being affirmed for me
Bob and Van Gogh
Both seem to have undergone problems with their memories and both themselves

What if Van Gogh survived and what we're playing are memories extracted from him after the fact

[azure bay]

maybe? the problem is, as I said, it's unclear which future Owl was speaking from. Within the Bday cube or beyond?

[languid sable]

It should be beyond
Given how Dale was never able to successfully revert his parents' death until he arrived to rusty lake in 1972

So I doubt Owl talked to him in the actual 1939

[azure bay]

I never meant th original event

[languid sable]

But it does raise an excellent question

why 1966

And how

If dale decided to access the memory then why didn't present day (1972) owl interact at that time?

Why did dale have to communicate with the 1966 version

[azure bay]

I meant Mr. Owl from within the cube could hypothetically help Mr. Owl from beyond the cube

[azure bay]

My guess for now, it's the year when Dale-Laura plan was established

[languid sable]

True
So far we've seen that both mr crow and mr owl are aware of the changes that happen around them
Given how crow specifically asked for a gun when no one else was aware they're going to be assassinated

[azure bay]

the latter isn't necessarily true

[languid sable]

Then what happened?

[azure bay]

I mean

Dale have definitely tried to warn the family. Chances are, grandpa (I'm not definitively convinced he was Crow) was the only one to take a kid seriously. In the end father was asking how Dale knew.

And it's not the only time the silent protagonist speaks without us knowing

TWD revealed that Dale asked Bob's soul for memories out loud in the police station

[languid sable]

I never thought about that

[carmine field]

I wonder how the cubes from Seasons are connected

Even though they are different cubes, they influence each other

As a single timeline

[azure bay]

I assume they are condenced into 1 cube?

[carmine field]

Well, Laura only had two cubes extracted originally

It could be that Seasons is about her exploring the black cube, but that doesn't explain Winter 1981

Something is missing

[azure bay]

what about winter 1981?

[carmine field]

Winter is also influenced by the other memories

And there is no way it could have been extracted at the Mill

[azure bay]

fair point

[carmine field]

I wonder if there is something that connects the cubes

[errant estuary]

memory probably

[carmine field]

wdym?

[errant estuary]

that theyre connected through the memory of the person that the cubes were extracted from

i think that i once had a shower thought about a scenario where memories were being recreated by parallel dimensions every time someone remembers, and whenever it was remembered incorrectly, it became a divergence in the timelines

[azure bay]

So far we're led to believe that divergence happens when somebody changes the cubes

[errant estuary]

yeah

[azure bay]

I'm very unsure whether Sarah erasing Laura would create any timeline

specifically inside Bob's head that is

[carmine field]

The most curious thing about this is that the place where you can see Bob's memories is called "cube"

[azure bay]

wdym?

[carmine field]

If my memory serves me correctly ^

One moment

I'll get it here

[errant estuary]

memory and cube seems to be one and the same

[azure bay]

I'm not sure of that

cubes are way more objective than memories

they contain things the memory owner would have no idea about

Albert's a bright example

[azure bay]

his newly summoned ghost acted according to his plan Rose was unaware of

[errant estuary]

hmmmmm

[azure bay]

how could I miss it?!

[carmine field]

Don't worry, I realized a few days ago

[azure bay]

so there is a memory cube

[carmine field]

yep

[untold stump]

Actually crazy that changes a lot about what I thought about TWD !!!

Ig replaying it 100 times wasnt enough

[carmine field]

I'm going to take advantage of this and replay Sarah's level

[errant estuary]

https://tenor.com/view/bucktooth-bucktooth-emoji-yellow-bucktooth-bucktooth-realization-bucktoon-realisation-gif-11440737202763773236

[untold stump]

Actually Ig that's where Bob's cube that Dale extracted in Case 23 went, Owl probably somehow got it back

[azure bay]

I have a very strong suspicion that the majority of Laura-related cubes were extracted after Bob shot himself

[carmine field]

The only cube we see is this one

Once we have found all the symbols, this square-shaped screen goes dark

And when we finish removing Laura from Bob's memories, it turns golden

What substances?

I think it's referring to the items around the room

Could they be Bob's substances?

[neon marsh]

does anyone know if there's some other connection between nicholas, albert, and dale aside from them all being associated with deer?

[carmine field]

nope

there isn't

I mean, there's a theory that the deer skull Albert wears was Mr. Deer's, but it's pure speculation

And as for Dale's deer head, it's a reference to the decapitated deer in Paradox, which is a reference to Dale's encounter with what is likely the corrupted soul of Mr. Deer in Case 23

Apart from all that, I don't think there's anything else

[azure bay]

Also I'd like to point out that Albert's deer is rather diabolical than totemic like in Nicolas's case

[zealous quail]

How come the newspaper article in paradox mentions 11 year old dale when the birthday incident is his 9th?

[azure bay]

it was an old oversight

long fixed

[zealous quail]

Ah

[azure bay]

What if ||Harvey collecting cubes and placing them in CEC order is balancing substance of Laura's life and that's why she's alive again after The Cave?||

[carmine field]

||The problem is that there is nothing to connect these cubes to Laura||

And yet, three of these cubes have already appeared in Paradox, serving a completely different purpose

The wooden, iron and glass ones represented, respectively, the present, the past and the future

Nothing about substances

[azure bay]

this sense is lost in UB and all the cubes may represent whatever

[carmine field]

perhaps

||We know that the future one and the past one were already in the box from the beginning||

||And the present one was hidden in the lake||

[azure bay]

Laura took part in Paradox and Rose took part in her past

[neon marsh]

Is the forest Hell?

[azure bay]

nominally yes

but it doesn't really feel like 1

[carmine field]

the ominous red version most closely resembles hell, while the white version is a bit monotonous, perhaps like limbo

[errant estuary]

@vague imp had to do a thing but yeah, i also see connections to stories i read

such as how in rusty lake paradise, nicholas is almost like a pharaoh, stubborn in his wanting to remain in paradise, and how he is incapacitated on the fourth plague, just like the pharaoh wavered, only to be fine / change his mind

[neon marsh]

what if the vandermeers were a lake associated family like the vanderbooms and eilanders, but dale's parents managed to escape?

[errant estuary]

probably

||in before caroline was born to the vandermeer family||

[azure bay]

what do you mean by escape?

[azure bay]

can you paraphrase please and explain where it comes from?

[errant estuary]

vandermeer means “from/of the lake” in dutch, so if that was caroline’s maiden name, it would be fitting

until im told otherwise by the games thats my firmest theory

[azure bay]

I think it's rather about Dale's future than his family's past. That was the case for Laura in Roots

[errant estuary]

idk

agreed as far as we know, the vandermeers were simply an innocent family roped into this horrible situation

[azure bay]

that doesn't contradict me. On the contrary, my point is that Laura is the one literally "from the tree" and Dale is the one to become literally "of the lake" instead of Owl

[errant estuary]

fair

sorry, i wasnt disagreeing

[neon marsh]

i just find it interesting that somehow mr rabbit is connected to dale's parents

[carmine field]

Depends on who owns the gun

[neon marsh]

what do you mean?

[carmine field]

Mr. Rabbit and Dale's parents do not appear to have any connection except for the substance from one of Mr. Rabbit's past lives, which is believed to be the gun

At least that's what it seemed to me

What other connection would they have?

[neon marsh]

i guess i never thought of it like that. why would dale's family have mr rabbit's gun?

[azure bay]

Either by chance or Mr. Crow is the grandfather for real. For now I don't see Owl planting it, he seems to have discovered Dale decades later

[neon marsh]

Why is the gun associated with Mr rabbit at all? I mean, I would generally associate it with Ms pheasant

[azure bay]

no Idea but somehow it has to be it

they are somewhat coworkers at least

siblings at most (if they even remember a thing)

[errant estuary]

crack theory: it is actually a substance of miss pheasant’s lives, but she’s too lazy and just wants to hang out and vibe

[errant estuary]

but just to be sincere: they might (is seems corrupted souls can remember their past lives on account of it being an in between state, plus david/mr rabbit’s reffered to as D. Eilander in paradox)

[azure bay]

No, I mean Rabbit clearly remembers his past. But did he and the others do so before Harvey killed them?

On one hand, there's no reason not to

we have Owl and Crow

but on the other they don't feel like the Eilanders

[errant estuary]

before then, i dont think they remember, and are simply inclined to the same things as before

and we dont know if they became asura instantly, or if it was just the lake’s reward to them for a lifetime of servitude

[azure bay]

the only references are Crow and Owl

it was instant for them

[carmine field]

Bringing up a subject, what do you think about people "belonging to the Lake"?

It is explicit that Rose, Albert and ||Laura|| belong to the Lake, but couldn't anyone else belong too?

Apart from the cubes, according to Mr. Owl, also belonging to the Lake

I want to read opinions about this, even if there isn't that much information

[errant estuary]

i think that the guests do now

[azure bay]

What do you think it was for them?

[carmine field]

I tend to believe that not only them, but all people are also part of the Lake

It's just that Albert realized that the Lake was their place

Unlike the vast majority of people

I can't see the three of them as special beings or anything like that

(actually with the exception of Laura, as she is a Lady of the Lake)

[azure bay]

It seemed to me like some kind of heaven/nirvana/promised land but apparently it doesn't seem to be about enlightenment anymore

Laura's CS belonged to the lake

By association it seems that the guests too

But they don't seem happy nor trapped

[carmine field]

I think this may be due to Mr. Owl and Albert's interests being different

But we're yet to see how exactly they conflict

Apart from Naraka, which makes everything even more complicated

The guests still haven't found their inner peace (with the exception of Mr. Rabbit in Birthday, but it's debatable), apart from Laura being guided by TPW things

Being optimistic, I think it's possible that the next game involving Dale and Laura will bring to light these loose details that UB left open

Whether it's showing Laura seeing the tree and the bug for the first time, or bringing more about what Mr. Owl really wants

[azure bay]

It won't be too hard. UB limited itself with Laura's personal struggle and everything William, Owl and elixir was at best reserved for short secret endings

Or completely skipped

[carmine field]

I really hope the devs should clarify this not too soon

They used the forest as Naraka and the forest as Nirvana in the same game

I think they know what they're doing

[azure bay]

I have no idea why the forest is Naraka

Roses and Laura were pretty happy

But it's also worded as if other trees are enlightened too

[carmine field]

For now I think that the Lake being Naraka and Nirvana at the same time are in different conditions

[azure bay]

It's very possible that it's Naraka mostly by name

[carmine field]

If we think of the Lake as a God, for example, being part of it would be liberating, so Nirvana
At the same time, it may have a punishing role, therefore Naraka

But that's just a guess

[carmine field]

I don't think so, considering we revisit the Naraka as the red forest in Laura's nightmares

[carmine field]

I think it's plausible if it were something like this, since Rusty Lake is influenced by both Abrahamic and Eastern religions

But who knows

[errant estuary]

that, and also to me, it has a lot of… rural folklore vibes, as in, it’s a place with a will of its own, and has to be bargained with in order to survive

[carmine field]

I like how this creates meaning to the ending of Arles

Even if the image is not of the forest itself

But the surface of the Lake

I think it's good to remember that the forest only started to be despicted as the bottom of the Lake after Rusty Lake Hotel

[errant estuary]

neat

[untold stump]

Have ppl started discussing about what the new announcement could be ?

Like this seems connected to the alchemist brothers and Roots and the only word I could make out from the notes is vial but idk if there's more that I haven't seen

[deft haven]

Maybe

but im sure it will be a very cool game!

[untold stump]

Could be one of those escape room box, that'd be cool too !

And it might be like Paradox, secrets from this could lead to secrets in the next game

[deft haven]

yeah that are my favorites

[honest brook]

It does look like something from Roots

[remote remnant]

imma be real idc if the new game completely messes up the story just add leonard

[vivid bridge]

he's dead

i'm sorry

[austere spoke]

fr, when i think about the vanderbooms i always forget about samuel and leonard

[honest brook]

Maybe it’s about what happened to the lab after the events of Roots?

[barren cove]

Or before the events of Roots

Even before the secret level

[remote remnant]

what if its a mr owl dating sim in disguise

[thorny wedge]

you know what. yeah. why not

[vivid bridge]

the lab doesn't really have a curved roof like that

Could be a new place

[azure bay]

a new place consacrated to the alchemist brothers that was overgrown with roots? I have my doubts

as I'm saying from time to time, they don't worry that much about architectural consistency

[vivid bridge]

the lab seems likely but I have my doubts

I just hope its a real place

I feel like we've spent too long on weird metaphysical places lately

when was the last time a game really took place in reality

[azure bay]

I think never

[vivid bridge]

white door I guess? Paradise?

Paradox is a simulation. Samsara is metaphysical reincarnation realm. TPW takes place inside cubes. UB is... UB

[azure bay]

even in there, we had some internal inconsistencies

[vivid bridge]

paradise is over 5 years old 👴

[azure bay]

Case 23 and other games we consider "real" are still gameplay-driven

[vivid bridge]

I just want a game that isn't so cryptic that its barely comprehensible

UB is the worst case scenario

[azure bay]

and yet UB was good at explaining other things

like why the heck Laura died

I don't think any other game could delve into Laura's mind that deep

[vivid bridge]

yeah but its like one of those things I could have lived without knowing all the details. I feel like too much detail doesn't make it automatically better

Actually, Laura's entire life being like planned and manipulated by Mr. Owl makes the world feel so much smaller

[azure bay]

but it wasn't

yeah, he was lurking, keeping an eye on her but he missed Albert coming and he couldn't keep Laura alive

[vivid bridge]

yeah but still

kinda wish Laura wasn't a vanderboom tbh