🤔｜theories

[vivid bridge]

Not really. They could have the characters be more expressive and show higher stakes

[azure bay]

I can recall Laura, Caroline, Nicolas and Dale expressing fear or pain

[royal notch]

It could be just an hint for players, but isn't it suspicious that Albert specifically wanted the eyes for his revenge?

[azure bay]

what's so sus about it?

[royal notch]

He could just kill them for bleeding removing any other limb or organ...

[carmine field]

What gaps?

It's difficult to compare William to Dale or Laura because William doesn't have an obvious trauma.

It's not impossible either, but it would be better if they showed it.

[azure bay]

We don't know how exactly the tree is connected to the family if it even is in any meaningful way. It's a gap.

We don't know what are possible purposes of balancing past life substance. It's a gap.

We don't really know why William didn't take other ways of rebirth/resurrection known to us. It's a gap.

Saying that organs are somehow past life substance and fitting every uncertainty to it isn't exactly a rational way

Mental gymnastics with William and Alsous somehom making organs what they aren't isn't really obvious to be the right guess of the devs' intentions

They may be somehow past life substance

The devs have seemingly written so

But we can't say how they are

And in this specific case can't even say if they really are

And trying to make sense of what's happenning onscreen doesn't help

Why placing organs on scales is the same to letting Harvey free in Seasons?

[carmine field]

• The seed was specially sent to James, starting the game. The tree was necessary at least to absorb the sacrifices. There are also references to the tree in The Cave and The White Door. It is not a completely dispensable element.

• I assume that the purpose of balancing past life substance is, in fact, to leave the corrupted state and be reborn. I personally believe that perhaps it has something to do with Karma, a possible reference, and that's it. The substance is something extremely vague.

• I think William went this route because, in one way or another, it was the most accessible to him. If there was another reason, what could it be?

• This series is full of symbols. Perhaps the substance of past lives taking the form of objects is pure symbology rather than something literal. What we would have to do is interpret these symbols. I interpret that because the sacrifices are fruits of William's legacy, they correspond to the most recent past life, in which William was William.

Apologies for the delay

[carmine field]

Although it may be seen externally as the same thing, they are different things individually. What each character had to overcome was different.

William supposedly had no trauma, just a legacy.

Laura had trauma and needed to free Harvey, her pet and guardian, so he could help her.

[vivid bridge]

Then they should tell us these things in the game. If it weren't for wherever they said that Laura made an elixir in Seasons, we would never have known

[errant estuary]

a thing that i wonder is why extracting black cubes irresponsibly corrupts souls

[vivid bridge]

ehh its just a thing that happens I guess

sometimes fantasy sci-fi logic is just that, you know

[errant estuary]

tbh i think that the extraction feels like experiencing the memory

[vivid bridge]

maybe

[errant estuary]

because of twd’s dream sections

[carmine field]

I suppose there is a link between corrupted souls and black cubes

[errant estuary]

so if the bad memories are extracted last, the extractee will experience a horrible memory, and suddenly, all that’s left is the bad feeling

maybe

[azure bay]

That's the problem. It's you who thinks all these things but only after some assumptions and stretches.

It's not a bad thing to do all that mental gymnastics. A bad thing is not preparing the lines of retreat. What if it actually isn't about legacy? What if James is just a puppet and all the rest are just bystanders (simply because the seed comes from William and the tree dies for his rebirth)? What if "past life substance" is not "just another symbol"?

I never suggest looking at things only at face value. But without substancial evidence it's still the best way to see things.

@vivid bridge @fossil oasis bad memories cause soul corruption mostly to mentally unstable people

And so may other things

Like Bob and van Gogh were corrupted due to their depression and madness

[vivid bridge]

yeah but wouldn't extracting those memories prevent corruption?

I don't really see why extracting them causes it outside of thats just what happens. Sometimes you don't need a scientific reason

[azure bay]

It could work just as any other trigger. A push of pain and desperity.

White cubes, for instance, never do that.

[vivid bridge]

Sure

[errant estuary]

ok so semi related, but i headcanon that mr owl is trying to help corrupted souls as best he can, while mr crow is kind of irresponsible

and just throws them in the remember machine

[azure bay]

It's not the right attitude in their job. I wouldn't trust such an employee if I were Owl

[errant estuary]

exactly

[azure bay]

But Owl does

[errant estuary]

but he can’t just let mr crow run rampant

[vivid bridge]

I think it'd be cool if Crow would, like, betray Owl. Would add a nice little twist and drama to the ending

[azure bay]

Owl makes mistakes but he's not an idiot to let him do these dangerous and important tasks

[errant estuary]

yeah nvm

aldous just did a small goof when he accidentally corrupted laura

[untold stump]

Ok so in the last devlog we see Rafferty say || "that woman, i've seen her before" and it really feel like TWD narration, maybe we'll have a moment where we hear Bob's thoughts. So it seems like the Bob station will be like the second time they meet since the bench scene from TWD, and that they haven't really spoken since ||

[vivid bridge]

yeah thats what I thought too when I heard that line

[errant estuary]

ooooooooh

i want to know about them

[vivid bridge]

Laura being that important to Owl is such a retcon btw. Owl is like so casual with her corpse, she's literally just a meal for the lake in The Mill and yet then later they're like "oooo she's essential to the whole thing"

[untold stump]

I dont think so. I think he knew from the beggining who she was ( because of Aldous probably ) and he specifically selected her memories to heal the Lake. Even in TWD, he's looking at Bobbert for his memories of LAura

[carmine field]

That's not it. I'm just saying the interpretation that convinced me the most.

It's not that I'm not willing to think about other interpretations, but rather they don't make much sense in my opinion.

If there are contradictions and you have a better idea, say so. That's the point to discuss.

[errant estuary]

rusty lake osha violation list

[vivid bridge]

yeah but his letter to Crow is so casual about her. Him telling Crow to not corrupt her but then Crow doing it anyways and then her corrupted soul being essential doesn't add up

[carmine field]

I don't think that way. Laura is referred to as "the young woman" rather than "a young woman", which gives her a certain degree of importance.

[vivid bridge]

Laura herself wasn't really important until the end of Roots/The Cave

she didn't even have a name til then

[untold stump]

I dont think he told not to corrupt her, he said that extracting the memories might corrupt her. I interpret it as a warning for Crow to not be like "wtf happened". He wanted the memories and knew it would corrupt her

[vivid bridge]

The context of the letter implies that she only exists to feed the lake

If they need her memories, why feed them to the lake

[untold stump]

Thats why they need the memories

[errant estuary]

they belong to the lake in fact

[vivid bridge]

They need the memories to make the golden cube

[errant estuary]

i think that’s the thing

[carmine field]

To preserve the memories, I think

[vivid bridge]

That's why you gather them in the cave

[errant estuary]

who is lacus fleo and why did he paint caroline?

[carmine field]

no one knows

[vivid bridge]

caroline was cheating on nicholas

[untold stump]

Yeah and Crow went to get the cubes and did the making the golden cube ritual in the Lake

[errant estuary]

what?

[untold stump]

It needed to happen in the Lake

[vivid bridge]

its a joke don't worry

[vivid bridge]

if they needed the cubes, why throw them in the lake in the first place

[errant estuary]

honestly fair

[vivid bridge]

look, all i'm saying is that laura being this important was not the original plan and it was retconned later

[errant estuary]

yeah probably

but still, what a beautiful retcon

[azure bay]

"the lake needs memories and the memories need the lake to be preserved"

• RL

[carmine field]

Perhaps preserve the memories, as they would only be needed later

[errant estuary]

gerard definitely stress ate

[azure bay]

The thing is, it's not even about contradictions. That's just how the confirmation bias works: we bend everything we see to our existing belief systems. Internally it may be perfectly logical and make most of sense but still be false to its core. Because it's based on false assumptions. Based on brave assumptions.

[vivid bridge]

still, the letter is specifically talking about feeding the lake, not preserving the memories. The whole "the lake preserves them" thing is the explanation for the retcon

I'm not arguing against that, i'm just saying it wasn't the original plan

[azure bay]

here I actually agree

because Vanderbooms, William and his elixir didn't exist before Roots

[errant estuary]

which ghost attacked laura in the lake game

[vivid bridge]

the hotel didn't even exist before Hotel

[vivid bridge]

me

[errant estuary]

Applebees?

[carmine field]

Maybe it's just confirmation bias, but if it's proven wrong, I have no choice but to accept it.

I'm just trying to consider everything I can because "balance the substance of your past lives" was used in the context of the last level of Roots. My look at this is: what allows this phrase to make sense in relation to the sacrifices?

I had the same view on the theory of Mr. Crow being Dale's grandfather.

(Which I disagree now)

[vivid bridge]

I think the last level of Roots just uses the balance your substances phrase because its a pre-established iconic quote

I don't think it means anything unless you wanna argue that all family members are Laura's past lives

[carmine field]

I gave an explanation of what this could be

My purpose in taking that phrase into account is that I'm trying to believe that the devs didn't put that phrase in vain

[vivid bridge]

well, thats where our beliefs differ

[azure bay]

And I prefer to say "I don't know" instead of being right for wrong reasons

[carmine field]

We know that there is no way to be sure of anything

But that doesn't stop you from forming your own theories about things

I emphasize that this is just my interpretation

I assume things and try to make everything make sense, even though I don't have enough evidence for anything concrete

[azure bay]

When I'm sticking to something, I usually have solid evidence. This way it's not shameful to be wrong

[carmine field]

As I said, if proven wrong, I will abandon this theory

[azure bay]

I'm convinced it has to be the other way. Adopting theories when proven true

you see

potentially, there are millions and millions of possible interpretations

why one is better than the others?

[carmine field]

I think trying to explain these meaningless sentences is part of the suspension of disbelief

[azure bay]

no, you can try to explain

you just need to constntly ask yourself what you know

and why you know that

or rather what you believe and why

not to get too attached to something weak and baseless

it's not even about RL

it's a universal reality check

[carmine field]

That's not what I did. I am willing to answer any contradiction anyone points out

[azure bay]

I told you, contradictions may not be the problem of your theory

the problem is simple lack of evidence

[carmine field]

Uhm

[azure bay]

believes need to pay rent

in form of evidence

because there are infinite numbers of believes

but the truth is only 1

[carmine field]

Even so, there are interpretations that fit better than others

We must consider all possibilities until there is more evidence

[azure bay]

potentially there are infinite numbers of interpretations that fit just as well. We can't seriously consider all of them.

[carmine field]

By "all" I meant "the best"

Sorry

[azure bay]

for me, the best are those that you can actually see

you can see that cubes are just memories (at least you could for ages)

and you can see that cubes are realities

and these 2 options alone create gigantic clusters of interpretations formed by myriads of other variations of what you may see

[carmine field]

yeah

[azure bay]

but there are even more variations that you can't easily see

[carmine field]

Definitely, but when we don't have them, we can think about candidates

We can compare candidates

Note their differences

[azure bay]

I'm convinced there should be a threshold 1st. You need to be able to see something without many logical leaps

"Organs are past life substances" on its own is justified to be said candidate

you can see that

it's clearly written

but "it's not past life substance, it's actually legacy because the Vanderbooms are connected to the tree" is not

it's a very specific statement that would require a set of very specific evidence

as I said

it's rationalization

a backwards logic

an attempt to explain 1 thing based mostly on the assumption that said thing is true

[carmine field]

Even so, what I theorized was based on the visual associations that the series brings

I have the impression that a lot of things in this series are left open on purpose

[azure bay]

I agree

that's why I still leave some freedom

like the memory-reality ambiguity of cubes

but I stick to more or less obvious things

I imagince the devs as the message senders

they want us to decypher it

and give some help with it

but unfortunately there's interference

mostly caused by our own brains

[azure bay]

that what I'd qualify as interference

[carmine field]

Maybe it's interference, maybe not

I tried to explain the theory as best I could

[azure bay]

mathemathically it likely is

because it's your product

it's based on your thought processes

not the obvious dev's hints

[carmine field]

the problem is figuring out the devs' hints and what to take into consideration

In this case, I'm considering everything I said about the tree as a hint from the devs, although it may be false

Unfortunately, that's all we have left besides waiting

[azure bay]

they are not obvious enough to be hints. I'll say more. Every theorist no matter how conservative they may be often tend to overthink

the devs want us to get their message

I don't think they want us to get confused

don't hide their hints too deep

[carmine field]

What I came up with was considering those things. Except for the last point, they all seem to have some support

[carmine field]

They already confused us from the first game lol

[azure bay]

they are still not obvious, they still lack evidence, they are still your products

it's still likely that your brain just filled in the gaps with false patterns

brain is an imperfect tool

a distortive lens

we need to take it into consideration and look for other ways of seeking the truth

the more hints we get, the more obvious they are, the higher is probability that we get things right

[carmine field]

The tree was a crucial point, otherwise its importance in the game was useless and pointless

Based on Mr. Rabbit's letter, you can easily deduce that the balance of the substance is necessary to get out of the corrupted soul state

And it is also logical to conclude that William chose the resurrection plan that involves the sacrifice of the family because it should have been the most accessible or that circumstances allowed

But I think I understand what you mean, although I don't think devs should put in too many hints to the point of being expository. We're not stupid

[azure bay]

I tend to agree with the 1st point.

The second one - not so much. Maybe William didn't know of memory cubes, maybe didn't want to stay in such, maybe didn't have a way to get it. Or alternatively the devs just wanted not to repeat themselves for no lore reason.

And as the result there's still no connection between the sacrifices and past life substance. There could be a different way to balance the things. For instance, Samsara Room. Or something unseen because Dale too needs to balance his substance to find enlightenment while Crow and Owl didn't visibly do that

[vivid bridge]

Balancing the substances doesn't necessarily lead to enlightenment. The cave book seems to refer to Dale specifically. Dale needs to fix himself (balancing his stuff) before he can get enlightened

Crow and Owl didn't have such issues so they didn't need to balance their shits

[azure bay]

Jakob definitely had something

[vivid bridge]

yeah but all he did was consume an elixir

[floral mauve]

exactly, I personally see balancing as escaping from corruption

[vivid bridge]

he never had to deal with his corrupted soul

[floral mauve]

not really went to enlightenement

[vivid bridge]

yeah exactly

Like Owl said "Deal with your past (balancing), only then can you become who you are meant to be (enlightened)"

[azure bay]

Balancing may be not only about corruption. Just about preparing oneself for a big spiritual leap

[vivid bridge]

but thats the only times we heard about it in the games outside of like the roots final level

none of the other enlightened peeps had to prepare themselves

[azure bay]

none of them was meant to become a deva

and still the fact that we see nothing obvious in Roots could mean that it's not obvious even for asuras

[carmine field]

Just noticing that if William actually studied Caroline's book, he probably knew what the cubes were.

I don't see why William and Aldous would be tracking their descendents for generations instead of going a more quickly route, such as entering the cubes or something. Saying he just didn't want to get into the cubes sounds like a cheap excuse. In my opinion, there was a real reason.

[vivid bridge]

Sorry, maybe I missed something, but why would William go inside a cube?

[azure bay]

just because it's an option

[vivid bridge]

I don't think William's cubes were ever extracted

[azure bay]

they didn't

[carmine field]

Do like Seasons and Birthday and balance the substance straight from the past

[vivid bridge]

I'm still not convinced that Dale balanced his substances in Bday

and even Seasons to a degree

I get Seasons but Bday has like nothing

[azure bay]

it's in the book. Dale is guided by cubes, Dale will make an elixir, Dale will find enlightenment, Birthday has to be it

[vivid bridge]

Doesn't mean Bday is his balancing. He's literally half-corrupted after Bday

[azure bay]

he's semi-corrupted before Bday

it started in the Cave

maybe in Paradox

[vivid bridge]

Yeah and Bday doesn't change it

[azure bay]

not sure it should

it's still about preparation

elixir is still the crescendo

[vivid bridge]

I think balancing is too vague to even speculate about it

every case of it is different in some way

The only times we actually see it is in Theatre and Samsara Room. Problem: Theatre is the most metaphorical game of them all so it might not be accurate. Samsara also takes place in a other wordly place where stuff isn't like it is in the real world. So the only two examples we have can't really be applied to the rest of the games. Then we have Bday with Mr. Rabbit, who steals a substance. This implies that substances are real and not metaphorical but how do you balance them? Do you literally balance them on a scale and then just magic happens? The only time we actually see things being balanced in the real world is the jars at the end of Roots but as we discussed, that's basically unrelated to the substance balancing

we basically know nothing

and even what we know is inconsistent. If the logic is "Balancing turns CS back to human" and "Elixir turns human into asura" then why does Laura make an elixir in Seasons if she turns from CS to human? Wouldn't that fall under balancing?

[azure bay]

I believe the only times we actually see it are Birthday and Seasons

changing cubes

using physical objects

no scales

no stupid magic

[vivid bridge]

Okay but those instances have nothing to do with either balancing or substances of past lives

[azure bay]

technically it has things to do with a past life for Laura

and balancing seems to be about changing

not scales

[floral mauve]

We kinda see it in Arles too

Balancing did unlock his escape route I suppose

From corruption despite death but at least he ain’t CS lmao

[vivid bridge]

not every balancing puzzle is balancing your past lives

[floral mauve]

But it has something to do with CS I guess

[vivid bridge]

the balancing puzzle in Arles is just a stupid pun lol

[floral mauve]

What about it

[vivid bridge]

sometimes balancing puzzles are just that

puzzles

[floral mauve]

Oh

[vivid bridge]

the pun is that all the objects are ear parts

[vivid bridge]

Seems like we're getting an actual answer on why Rose left Laura that isn't just "she had to bring back her shitty dad"

rose stocks rising rn

[azure bay]

I'm worried that "she had to bring back her shitty dad" could be that actual answer they are keeping in secret

[vivid bridge]

shh let me cope

we'll know tomorrow

[stone bramble]

my theory is that it was too dangerous to keep her around

maybe something related to albert’s soul

[carmine field]

About Seasons, I discovered something interesting. It's small, but I think it's worth commenting on due to the coincidence.

There is a tradition involving black eggs. People pray and eat a black egg with the intention of extending life expectancy by seven years.

https://pen-online.com/travel/the-tradition-of-the-black-eggs-of-mount-hakone/

In Seasons, Laura ate a black egg during Spring 1964.
She died in 1971, seven years later.

Thanks to this, I imagine Laura already considered the idea that she would die early. But who knows if it's really a reference.

[vivid bridge]

Its probably not intentional but thats a fun coincidence

[covert wyvern]

Hi dear theorists, just as a reminder if you want to pop off without the burden of spoiler tags, you can use #945320126608179231 when it comes to Underground Blossom:)

[void wigeon]

I’ve been thinking a lot about rusty lake becuase I’ve been explaining the entire lore (from what we know) to my friend. An hour in and I’m still not done but it really is making me wonder how the hell was David still kicking about after hotel?
I personally think that since in hotel you only really ‘kill’ mr.rabbit when you stab him near the leg that’s all that happened. You stabbed him in the leg. You serve up rabbit leg the next day and then that’s it. I think Jakob used David as a sort of henchman. With one leg lost already he didn’t wasn’t to risk it. But he was well and truly miserable so at the first chance he got to get out this state and back to normal he took it. Hence the actions in birthday. If I’m not mistaken the gun was in the box of the item he stole. It was obviously a special gun to . If he was willing to shoot up an entire family just to get out of a miserable horrid existence I think that this was a good shout that he was living a pretty miserable life. What life would be more miserable with the brother you almost killed ?

Anyway this theory is really rough and I’ve probably got some info wrong. What do you all think?

[azure bay]

Based on recent samsara and corrupted soul insights by the devs, Mr. Rabbit in Bday could be a Corrupted Soul that nearly defeated its corruption

[void wigeon]

That makes a lot of sense since mr. Rabbit in birthday is white with full black eyes instead of brown with normal eyes!

[delicate atlas]

So I was right that he was a CS and not an actual resurrected rabbit

[azure bay]

at least not yet

[delicate atlas]

Oh

[median hemlock]

I do have a question about the lore: are dave and laura related or are they married? they do have the same last name

[azure bay]

"Why do I keep thinking of that woman? I never met her before. She was just another murder case". And their last names are just as the same as JohnsSON and JackSON are.

[median hemlock]

omg im so sorry i thought dale's last name was Vanderboom like Laura but i just read his last name really bad during the games 💀

thanks for the answer tho :D /gen

[sudden dust]

not sure if this has been discussed but
what is the currency in rusty lake games? (ub spoilers included)

||the currency in rl was already confusing, but even more after playing ub.
significant things to note is in twd, the cost of a bloody mary (7 unknown currency) and the gun (18). the gun is a weird case since firearms usually cost hundreds of dollars, so there’s only a few explanations:

1. the gun was extremely crappy
2. ub and twd has different currency (ub has dollars, will explain after)
3. the bartender needed bobbert to die even if he would lose money (not a stretch since we know who the bartender is)
4. bartender is stupid

strangely enough, the currency used ingame is displayed in underground blossom.
it’s dollars, though the cost of things are confusing.
for example, a donut costs 50$, there’s a coin that’s 100$ (or cents?) but a bill was only 10/15$ (lazy to check), candy bars costed up to 90$ (or cents?) and the metro tickets are worth one coin.
if we think of the currency in ub as the real life dollars, then the tickets are possibly only a couple of dollars. this still doesn’t explain the vending machine and candy; maybe the display of the vending machine was in cents? i’ve never seen a vending machine do that but if someone can confirm that’d be cool)

so a few possible explanations for the confusing currency

1. twd and ub currency are not the same
2. laura/rose and bobbert had similar currencies worth different amounts in their respective games (example : usa dollars and canadian dollars are different currency but can be both referred as “dollars”)
3. (in ub) the coin used for the vending machine + the bill under the bench are different currency
4. in rusty lake (lorewise) the dollar system is different from the real world’s (hence why a donut costs 50$, there’s coins with 100$, etc)
5. the money in the gameplay is irrelevant, since it was only to make the game easier than trying to calculate the prices of everything||

||ran out of message space
(5 is a realistic explanation)
6. there was a FUCK ton of inflation between twd and ub (extremely realist answer)
7. im overthinking this

if anyone found any other mentions, proofs or appearances of currency in games, please enlighten me (haha funny pun)||

[azure bay]

I think it's gameplay

[sudden dust]

yeah that’s number 5

[feral fox]

Does anyone know who exactly in Rustylake OWNS the lake? Mr. Owl? Laura herself? Or is it it's own enitity?

I know the two families settled down beside it in the past

[errant estuary]

i don’t know how one would own a lake, which is like a body of water that many people can interact with simultaneously

one can have a patch of land on a beach, or an island, but a lake is not belonging to anyone or anything but itself

[feral fox]

Well, I mean, didn't the lake remove the shadow/black stuff, from Laura? So, who made it "magical"

It has such significance, that someone must have done something to it

[errant estuary]

i’m assuming it always was, because it’s implied that Naraka is beneath it

[feral fox]

Hm, I must play all the games again and start making a timeline

[errant estuary]

it’s honestly quite interesting

because the area appears to have a will of it’s own

[feral fox]

It is, like who's the boatman in the title screen?

[feral fox]

does it bend time too?

[errant estuary]

maybe

and if not, it definitely bends memory

[feral fox]

And what is the shadow, does it kill the people inside, like laura or just corrupt?

[errant estuary]

because the lake owns each memory people develop

[errant estuary]

with corrupted souls, they appear to act only on instinct and is how a person becomes when incredibly pained

[feral fox]

So, Mental health and fishing is supposed to be a place to help people not corrupt?

Or is it working towards making more corrupt people by giving them pills

Cause Bob has meaning towards Laura

[errant estuary]

it’s primary objective is probably to exctract the memory cubes from distressed people, and it is a form bait to offer mental health facilities

the well-being of the people is secondary to the extraction

at least

that is how i read it

[feral fox]

Bob was already gonna go in UB, so "the lake" or mr. owl or whoever, has has an eye for Bob for some time

Bob and Laura is very interesting to me

[errant estuary]

yeah

[feral fox]

Who is Bob, why him, he was first intruduced in White door, right?

[errant estuary]

||bob appeared in case 23 as a suspect, and it’s later revealed in theater that laura’s death had devastated him||

[feral fox]

ah, thats why I need to replay, bc I can't remember that stuff , ||so Bob had been revelaed as a bf||

[errant estuary]

yeah

and to me it seems like ||laura ended things because she considered herself a burden to him, and that he’d have better prospects if she was just out of the picture||

[feral fox]

But did they re-meet at ub? or was it their first meeting there?

[errant estuary]

i think that it was when the relationship began, and then when it ended

[feral fox]

damn bob can't catch a break

[errant estuary]

nobody except for the immortal dog can catch a break in rusty lake

[feral fox]

Immortal dog, ah my favorite character

what is a rusty lake game without him

[errant estuary]

i think it is funny that mr owl started to practice mental health after a family reunion

[feral fox]

He was like, "Damn, this family is too messed up even for me"

Family therapy next game

[errant estuary]

||rusty lake hotel lmao||

😭

[feral fox]

|| That game was just the embodiment of eat the rich||

💀

[errant estuary]

||why did they hand miss pheasant a glock||

[feral fox]

||She did it for the art 📸💥||

[errant estuary]

“do it for the vine, Harvey”

[feral fox]

LMFAO

||Harvey watching his friends die one by one||

[errant estuary]

this is why i think the establishment is incompetent

[feral fox]

The lore is actually that Harvey is a normal parrot who is dreaming about his owner and her weird family, real, I was there

[errant estuary]

i want to talk about the eilanders so bad

[feral fox]

who were those again?

[errant estuary]

because they were clearly significant enough to be painted

[feral fox]

ah them

[errant estuary]

it’s mr owl’s family

[feral fox]

Well, I remember a big|| bonfire||

[errant estuary]

for example how both ||margaret and nicholas seemingly know medicine, or at least an old practice||

[feral fox]

Did anyone in that family suffer from illness?

[errant estuary]

closest to confirmation is that ||Elizabeth went blind, which is not an illness, but is still a medical issue, and can be the result of illnesses||

[feral fox]

(how do I spoiler a photo?)

[errant estuary]

press it for a bit and tag it as a spoiler

[feral fox]

How did they get to this point?

[errant estuary]

they ||seemed to know that the lake was odd, and as such considered it divine in nature||

[feral fox]

||Who died? or got sacrificed?||

[errant estuary]

||caroline||

[feral fox]

oh yeah, ||burning her||

I really still don't get how van gogh ties into the lore

[ivory girder]

if y'all are talking about old games y'all don't need spoilers btw

[errant estuary]

i think van gogh was an homage

[feral fox]

Is it because he cut his ear off and ears have a meaning in the rusty lake

[feral fox]

thanks 🫡

[ivory girder]

np

[feral fox]

Hm, the timeline is all over the place

because theres holes everywhere

and I know they're getting filled out

[errant estuary]

as far as i know, van gogh in the real world was very distraught, both because of chemicals and the treatment he received

which is very much in line with the corrupted soul phenomenon

[feral fox]

Van Gogh first corrupted soul, real? 📸

Arles definition, is to bind a contract between buyer and seller

... so, that ties together splendidly with the lore too

[errant estuary]

it shows the kind of person who gets corrupted

[azure bay]

Caroline was before. And a lot of people definitely predated even her

[errant estuary]

also arles is where he spent the last of his life, which was for his health, which was declining

[feral fox]

in terms of rusty lake lore, could he have sold his soul or something else to bind a contract to mr. owl or the lake?

[errant estuary]

i disagree
the preta are manifestations of pure desperation and hunger and lacking

as it is a part of samsara

[feral fox]

Hm, I just really want van gogh to be in rusty lake lore 😥

[errant estuary]

he is, but as an example of corruption

[feral fox]

Are there any characters who we haven't gotten a full character story of yet?

[errant estuary]

and a kind of reference to the netherlands

[feral fox]

what happened to Albert? Did he die? corrupt?

[errant estuary]

harvey is the closest

[feral fox]

Or turned immortal?

[errant estuary]

d, he did all of the above

[feral fox]

He started off at Lauras bird right?

Turned humanoid or something,,?

[errant estuary]

he is likely an immortal entity, who was around as long back as 1793

as an enlightened animal

[feral fox]

Did he drink from the lake?

Perhaps?

[errant estuary]

maybe

[feral fox]

Or something happened when he was set free in seasons

[errant estuary]

anyways a headcanon i got for the eilanders is that going through the plague grants them a next lifetime as asuras

which is what the anthropomorphic animals are

[feral fox]

So, thats how they turned "full animals"?

just to die by mr. owls hotel...

[errant estuary]

yeah

miss pheasant deciding ||to bring a glock to the mental health facility||

[flint willow]

Technically, since the asuras were staying at the hotel, aren’t they considered ||cannibals|| by proxy?

[errant estuary]

yeah

[feral fox]

Well, yeah

I think they don't have morals really,,

[flint willow]

I wasn’t entirely sure because I couldn’t remember if they were actually animals or if they were corrupted humans like the Eilanders (?)

[feral fox]

(is that ofmd pfp?)

[flint willow]

(It is! I’m matching with one of my partners )

[errant estuary]

mrs pigeon probably worked with them on the cube extractor prior to her assassination

[flint willow]

Ooo I can see that

[feral fox]

do we know what else the cube hold other than memories?

Or is it solely memories?

[flint willow]

Can’t they hold souls, too?

[errant estuary]

the black cubes are painful memories
and the white cubes blissful memories

[feral fox]

makes sense, if they introduce a new color I'm flipping

[errant estuary]

the blue and gold cubes work with changing the past and the future respectively

[azure bay]

That't not true

[feral fox]

theres colors?? I can't remember, what game?

[flint willow]

Imagine a green cube for “Memories you love but can no longer carry”

[errant estuary]

oh?

that was what i thought, my bad

[thorny wedge]

blue appears in seasons and i believe birthday, gold is in the past within

[feral fox]

..ah havent played tpw, bc I dont have anyone

[flint willow]

Oh same that’s why I don’t have it either

[thorny wedge]

aw:( lemme know if you wanna team up, i've already gone through everything and i'm down for another run

[errant estuary]

and presumably, extracting these cubes may make the patient experience the memory again

[feral fox]

I'll think! If I can't get any friends of mine to do it!

[errant estuary]

which is probably why extracting black cubes corrupts the soul, as far as i know

[feral fox]

The whole story is based on Laura, so whats the theory for her "end"

[flint willow]

I think she’ll finally reach elysium and be at true rest and peace

[errant estuary]

||she likely manages to recover from her corruption in 1981||

at least

[covert wyvern]

Please, spoilers.

[thorny wedge]

oh i thought this channel was marked for spoilers in general

[errant estuary]

shit

sorry

[feral fox]

ah, sorry mate

[azure bay]

Blue cubes are time bending tools. They can fast forward and rewind it. In Seasons you can go in any direction after obtaining one.

And golden cubes are weird. We saw one containing a future but a cube doesn't have to be golden for that. Owl's future cube was white. In Dale's case it seems like a form of the elixir and it just "makes the destiny happen"

[covert wyvern]

You're all good

Just some lines that imply a lot should definitely be like spoiled yknow

[errant estuary]

ok

[covert wyvern]

Happy theorising!

[feral fox]

Thanks Danny

[flint willow]

Are spoilers okay if they’re spoiled and tagged?

[covert wyvern]

Yes

[flint willow]

Okay cool!

(theory slightly about the Lake itself but mostly spoilers)

||Hold, Laura controls the Lake now? I thought no one could ever harness the power and force that makes the Lake… the Lake. I always assumed it was a passive Eldritch-style kind of entity. Not really sentient, but sapient?||

[feral fox]

||I think she became one with the lake?||

[thorny wedge]

||i agree, i wouldn't think it could be controlled but "the lake belongs to me" implies some form of control||

[thorny wedge]

may very well be

[errant estuary]

||in a lot of folklore, at least where im from, folks thought of the place that they lived in as having a will of its own||

||which usually manifests as a creature that acts on that will||

[thorny wedge]

agreed, that's how i thought about it

[flint willow]

||That makes a lot of sense, yeah. That’s a heavy theme for Night in the Woods so I’m heavily familiar with that concept, but that’s still really fascinating||

[azure bay]

||she said she was ready to live a new life without sorrow. That doesn't sound like she's keeping godhood||

at least using it on every day basis

[errant estuary]

||so it’d belong to laura similarly to how bodies own the mind or something||

[thorny wedge]

||"the lake belongs to me" could also just be a "carpe diem i'm taking charge of my life" sort of thing but that still means she kind of broke from belonging to the lake||

[errant estuary]

or it is to show ||it can’t control her anymore, and that she will do what she wants||

[thorny wedge]

that's kind of what i'm thinking yeah

[flint willow]

||If she managed to take control of her own life, post Corruption, she might be more powerful than Mr. Owl and Mr. Crow.||

[feral fox]

Why is the lake, "Rusty", a reach, but? Rusty means worn out, old, so how old is the lake, what ocean was it connected to?

[errant estuary]

it is probably because of either scent or color or something

and not much of semantics

[azure bay]

it looks like Seasons and in Seasons ending she just lived another 20 years normally

[feral fox]

The water changes color right?

[errant estuary]

as part of the day of the lake

yeah

[flint willow]

I always envisioned that it’s a kind of rusty, red kind of color because of everything it’s seen, maybe smells similar to that first sickly sweet scent of death before decomp sets in

[thorny wedge]

same actually

[feral fox]

like an ocean of blood? Omg ||is it red bc of all the bodies its "eaten"?||

[thorny wedge]

i figured it was either there long before anything else like an eldritch being or made to be that way by perhaps layers and layers of horrors that took place upon it throughout history

[errant estuary]

i first imagined that all the rocks at the bottom hat a lot of red ochre or iron

because i’m a simpleton

[flint willow]

That’s what I’m thinking, yeah!! Kinda similar to the ocean in Iron Lung?

[thorny wedge]

YES

[feral fox]

YESS

Iron Lung mention!!🫡

[errant estuary]

and then that it has leeches

[feral fox]

Wasnt there a submarine cube game?

[thorny wedge]

yeah!

[errant estuary]

the cave

[flint willow]

Absolutely! I haven’t played it yet but I’ve seen a lot of play throughout

[thorny wedge]

the cave

[errant estuary]

we’re synched

[flint willow]

I forgot there was a sub in The Cave

[feral fox]

yess, damn blood ocean + submarine trope

[flint willow]

I just thought of something

[feral fox]

share with the class 🤔

[thorny wedge]

the second section ||is a whole submarine thing, navigating it and everything (i'm very bad at it) and then there's also a diver puzzle on the wall||

[feral fox]

the ||The experiments|| right?

[thorny wedge]

yes

[errant estuary]

a thing i find interesting is that all the trees in the ||forest remind me of how it looks when you go on top of a mountain, but inverted||

[feral fox]

got a pic of the trees?

[carmine field]

||I believe "The Lake belongs to me" is a reference to her being a Lady of the Lake, which is said to have been confirmed by the devs||

[flint willow]

(Spoilers) ||Okay so with the release of Underground Blossom we’ve gotten confirmation that Laura is Albert’s granddaughter. We know that Albert is absolutely unhinged, deep in corruption, black magic and more, perhaps he passed down his corruption to Laura? Since Rose was birthed by who could be considered “incorruptible” possibly, given how Ida was unable to be corrupted as far as I remember?||

[thorny wedge]

||Ida Vanderboom?||

[flint willow]

||Ohhh!!! Kinda like the Legend of Excalibur, with the Lady of the Lake?||

[flint willow]

||Yes! Her!!||

[thorny wedge]

||do we know what being the lady of the lake entails?||

[carmine field]

||I don't think corruption can be passed on. There is no evidence that this actually happened and it doesn't fit very well with Samsara.||

[feral fox]

(merlin fan spotted 🙏)

[flint willow]

(Oh absolutely, I adore Merlin)

[errant estuary]

the first picture depicts the forest at the very bottom

[flint willow]

||Ill have to play through Samsara again, it seems there’s a lot I’ve missed||

[carmine field]

||I'm not talking about Samsara Room, but Samsara in general||

[flint willow]

||Ohhh! Okay, yeah looking at it like that makes more sense||

[errant estuary]

nah, ||corruption is not infectious, it is just a response to extreme emotional pain||

[feral fox]

Could corruption also come from mental illness?

[flint willow]

Possibly?

[thorny wedge]

as long as it brings about suffering i think 100%

[errant estuary]

yeah

[feral fox]

Mental illness CAN be passed on through generations, so the theory isn't totally invalid

[flint willow]

Like, for example, I’m plural, would I be more susceptible to Corruption?

[errant estuary]

it’s not just the brain itself, but also the treatment and feelings of the people

[carmine field]

most likely

[errant estuary]

i think i’d be because i’m hypersensitive

[flint willow]

Would it affect an entire system or just the body? Now I wanna request a plural person in the next game

[feral fox]

It would affect the mind, so an entire system would most likely be affected

[flint willow]

That’s so weird and wild. Do you think there’s more than one Cube despite potentially being only one soul?

I’m having the time of my life with this too

[errant estuary]

i think that the cube is memories

so a lot of cubes exist

[feral fox]

Maybe a system would have smaller cubes of the same type?

[thorny wedge]

yeah, as stated by dale in i think case 23 ||"i see my memories floating around in cubes"||

[feral fox]

Spread out

[flint willow]

Possibly!

[errant estuary]

and if someone has a bunch of repressed memories, would the cubes be hidden?

[flint willow]

Which means that possibly only one person in the system could become corrupted, but others could be fine and now I’m gonna be thinking about this all day

[feral fox]

Well, I think the cubes hold all memories, repressed or not

[feral fox]

I think all the people in the system would be corrupted sadly

[thorny wedge]

is it stated in paradox that ||dale has repressed memories, like in the psychological evaluation, or am i making that up||

[flint willow]

||I think he has repressed memories yeah||

[errant estuary]

||a thing that is strange about the vandermeers is that they had the gun that miss pheasant fired||

[feral fox]

Ah first game, I can't remember! ;(

[flint willow]

You’re probably right, yeah

[thorny wedge]

could be a re-used asset but it's hard to say

[feral fox]

Eilanders stole it?

[thorny wedge]

not entirely out of character

[errant estuary]

if mr rabbit needed it to revert his corruption, it might be the same item

[thorny wedge]

oh yeah

[feral fox]

how it feels to discuss rusty lake theories

[thorny wedge]

truly, i'm having such a time

[errant estuary]

also an additional headcanon: in roots, we see the guests stay in the hotel in 1870, so i think that mr owl decided to procrastinate because 3/5 of them were kids or teens, cause we get the guests ages confirmed

[feral fox]

Did anyone see the rusty lake mention in "Theres no game 2"

[errant estuary]

and he just went “shit this was not the plan, abort, abort”

[feral fox]

Even an Owl can make mistakes 💀

[errant estuary]

i mean ACKCHUALLY☝️🤓 owls are not all that bright in reality

[thorny wedge]

oh yeah zero thoughts behind those large eyes

BUT

[errant estuary]

because their brain’s mostly for sight

[thorny wedge]

they can sit criss cross applesauce

[errant estuary]

yeah

[thorny wedge]

which i find to be a great asset

[errant estuary]

so i think that mr owl secretly being an idiot is a great thought

[feral fox]

He should have chosen a different animal fr, an owlsona?

Eilanders the family of furries

[thorny wedge]

i like to think they just didn't know owls weren't that smart in the 18th century

[errant estuary]

||elizabeth is the least sane eilander, sorry gamers 👊😔||

[flint willow]

You’re right and you should say it

[thorny wedge]

and as research began coming out with the advancing of science mr owl just kept being more and more disappointed

[errant estuary]

pheasants are actually the most likely bird to just run in front of a car and die

because a lot of them are raised to be killed for sport

[feral fox]

||or shoot itself apprently||

[thorny wedge]

elizabeth is just built different

[flint willow]

I shouldn’t have laughed so loud I m at work

[thorny wedge]

not to mention how everyone ||left the island during one of the plagues i dont remember which one and they just left her there||

[feral fox]

the ugly chuckle I let out shocks me 💀

[errant estuary]

alternatively, this

[feral fox]

Save Elisabeth

[thorny wedge]

||they all committed familicide but elizabeth was the only one who was committed to the bit||

she was out there being creepy as hell in those woods and i respect her for that

[feral fox]

Group playthrough when?

[errant estuary]

||plot twist she was trying to scare jacob away from the island but is simply bad at communicating||

[thorny wedge]

she was 100% willing to just stand around for no reason in a single spot for hours for the vibe

[feral fox]

The real girlboss

[thorny wedge]

brb headcanoning her as autistic over this

[errant estuary]

yeah

semiverbal

[feral fox]

wait, who was mr. bat

[thorny wedge]

I WAS JUST GOING TO BRING HIM UP

[feral fox]

Was he anyone significant?

OMG

[thorny wedge]

NO

[errant estuary]

he is a bat

[thorny wedge]

HE JUST EXISTS

[feral fox]

BUT THE LORE

[errant estuary]

he go hiss hiss

[feral fox]

He just hides in the dark

so real

[errant estuary]

and get paid in gold cube

[flint willow]

Group play but everyone is a different character

[thorny wedge]

LIKE HARVEY IS MYSTERIOUS WITH UNCLEAR ORIGINS WE KNOW HE'S ENLIGHTENED AND WE DON'T KNOW WHY BUT AT LEAST HE'S IMPORTANT BUT MR BAT IS JUST THERE. PRESUMABLY ALSO ENLIGHTENED

[feral fox]

Guys mr. bat is actually me 😔

[thorny wedge]

AND HE'S NOT EVEN IMPORTANT IT'S ACTUALLY MAKING ME GO INSANE

[errant estuary]

fr

[thorny wedge]

oh no im sorry chost

[errant estuary]

wdym he is in fact the main character

[feral fox]

Mr. Bat redemtion :(

[errant estuary]

that’s why he won’t die

just vibing

[thorny wedge]

i was literally ranting about him while playing ub and ||then he fucking showed up, cementing his existence and i lost my marbles||

[errant estuary]

HIS VOICE

[thorny wedge]

I KNOW RIGHT

[feral fox]

I PLAYED ON MUTE

BC I WAS IN CLASS

[errant estuary]

god it is so “parent reads storybook to kid at night” (affectionate)

[thorny wedge]

he literally sounds like the old lady at the ticket stand a little bit to the left

[errant estuary]

love it

[feral fox]

What if Mr. Bat is actually, a bat?

[thorny wedge]

this man is here for shrimp and hissing and its genuinely making me lose it

[thorny wedge]

but why sentient

[errant estuary]

he go hiss hiss, eat shrimp, and get gold cube as his salary

[feral fox]

Because he's cool like that

[thorny wedge]

i wonder what a gold cube is worth

[feral fox]

more than 3

[errant estuary]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-infinity-war-everything-avengers-gif-14066494

[thorny wedge]

can it buy a single donut in the rusty lake universe

[feral fox]

||Bob must be rich if its his favorites||

no wonder laura went after him

[errant estuary]

it can get all the donuts before they’re even baked

[thorny wedge]

wow

[thorny wedge]

||i think he likes them cause in this case they're a rare treat||

[errant estuary]

yeah

[flint willow]

||Imagine if Bob was actually rich. Where would his wealth go after his death? He and Laura never had children, right?||

[feral fox]

It would go to the lake 💀

[errant estuary]

harvey

[flint willow]

Richest Lake in the world ☠️

[feral fox]

The lake needs cash too 💀

[thorny wedge]

||mr owl pockets it by faking bills bob owes to the white door||

[feral fox]

HELP

Thats why Mr. Owl is obessed with Bob

[flint willow]

||that makes so much sense||

[flint willow]

I’ll be here all day

[errant estuary]

okay but why’s david such an awful gadfly

metaphorically

[thorny wedge]

What's a gadfly

[errant estuary]

my use of the word is an annoying, confrontation person

[thorny wedge]

Ah

[feral fox]

Who was david again

I agree

[thorny wedge]

I mean isnt he like 15

[errant estuary]

that’s true

why did he STAB HIS FATHER

is

is the dad that bad

[thorny wedge]

If i was a teenager with a family like that id be an asshole too

[feral fox]

No family in Rustylake is happy

The lake curse

[errant estuary]

nicholas

[thorny wedge]

Misread, my b

And yes<3

[median hemlock]

what are corrupt souls basically? ||In cave, we see someone look like dale drink an elixir and he turned into a corrupted soul, but why him? and why not the guy in a hat that turns into a crow?||

[errant estuary]

okay so another headcanon that totally isn’t projecting: david would definitely beg all of his family members to lend him cash constantly (my 15 yo brother totally hasn’t done this to me and my family (: )

[thorny wedge]

Also i wonder whether immortals in general in the rusty lake universe kinda lose morals or regard for normal life to a large extent or if harvey is just kinda unhinged

[feral fox]

"Will you spend it on drugs?"

"no"

buys gun

[carmine field]

Both Mr. Bat and Mr. Toad were human, according to the devs

[feral fox]

What if Mr. Bat is Van Gogh???? /J

[errant estuary]

PLEASE

[thorny wedge]

oh god i forgot about mr toad

you know what its fine mr toad can have it im not mad about him he just has that immortal cannibalistic cook air about him im not questioning him

[errant estuary]

david also picked that kind of trick up from Gerard

both of them just got that shit car salesman vibe

[feral fox]

mr. owl out here auditioning people to be apart of his crew bc he wants good food and a good service boy

[thorny wedge]

alternatively they just either reached enlightenment unrelated to the lake and mr owl had to go hunt them down and bring them to the hotel

or they were dipped in the lake as babies. like achilles

[feral fox]

Baptizing in the lake 💀💀

[thorny wedge]

its like the anti-baptism

[errant estuary]

theory, they’re previous eilanders

[thorny wedge]

ooooooooooo

[feral fox]

"Where's the money lebowski??

[thorny wedge]

they're like the cool uncle and cousin mr owl went to when he got sick of his family and then he returned to them after reaching enlightenment like "y'all. y'all. wanna do something funny?"

[feral fox]

"Wanna see a magic trick, kids?""

[errant estuary]

a thing that i noticed is that mr rabbit and miss pheasant are very polite

[thorny wedge]

they raised themselves

[feral fox]

Mr Rabbit is David right?

[thorny wedge]

yap

[errant estuary]

correct

seems he grew up a bit

[feral fox]

Hm, so they changed after becoming full animal

Their mind reset

[thorny wedge]

he finished puberty

[errant estuary]

absolutely

teenagers can be awful

[feral fox]

Who's the player in Family tree?

[thorny wedge]

oh in roots?

[errant estuary]

||willy||

[thorny wedge]

yap

[errant estuary]

miss pheasant is so concerning to me and i don’t know why

[feral fox]

Bc shes the oldest?

[errant estuary]

it just feels like she might snap at any minute

[feral fox]

Well no sorry thats pidgeon

[thorny wedge]

elizabeth is just build different x2

[errant estuary]

anyways i want to rant about animal symbolism

[feral fox]

yes pls

[thorny wedge]

please go ahead i LOVE symbolism

ill go get something to eat and i'll be good to listen to you talk for the rest of the day

[feral fox]

Ill be out eating too, so I'll be back in a few hours too, might reply here and there tho

[errant estuary]

deer are usually considered to be otherworldly and regal, but sometimes possibly arrogant

so i think that part of why paradise has exodus parallels is because similarly to the pharaoh, nicholas is too prideful, and refuses to leave

[feral fox]

How many animals were there?

7? or 6?

minus owl and bat ofc and harvey

5... So if we add Owl and someone else we could try to give each animal a deadly sin

Boar = Gluttony
Deer = pride

Pidgeon = Sloth?
Pheasant = Lust?

[errant estuary]

the pheasant has a duality, in which it is both a symbol for beauty, art, survival, creativity and intuition (mostly in eastern asia iirc), but also stereotyped as stupid, with sudden erratic behavior that will get them killed

rabbits are usually considered tricksters, and in a lot of myths fool bigger and stronger animals to survive

[thorny wedge]

hmm

hard to say whether that was intentional and i would guess not but david seems to be the only one who's ||actively trying to balance the substance of his past lives (as stated in his letter in birthday), kind of fixing or changing his destiny, going up against the lake, a much more powerful entity||

[errant estuary]

the boar also has different depictions, as gluttonous because of the connection to pigs, but is also a symbol for the primal and violent, and as spiritual because of truffles, somehow symbolizing the below

[carmine field]

I don't think the deadly sins suit the guests in general

Just pride and gluttony with the two brothers

[thorny wedge]

same but its still an interesting thought

[carmine field]

The rest is very debatable

I even looked for Asura from Buddhist texts that matched the Asura from Rusty Lake, but I didn't find anything yet

I think the Asura of Rusty Lake were freely created

[errant estuary]

yeah

i think it is used to describe the states of mind of the characters

[errant estuary]

yeah

um

i don’t know i’m obsessed with myth

[thorny wedge]

oh me too dont worry

ive been trying to reconnect with myths and witchcraft from my own culture but its all buried under christianity

[errant estuary]

it’s fascinating that for example the folklore in my country becomes more chaotic the further from the city you go

[thorny wedge]

oh yeah theyve been cultivating that shit for centuries out there

[languid lantern]

Guys who Harvey really is

[thorny wedge]

are you asking for theories or proof

[languid lantern]

What happened are good detective?

[languid lantern]

theories

I have been a fan of the series for years but rarely get involved in the fandom.

[carmine field]

Nobody knows for sure

What we do know is that Harvey was born from a black egg

And that he's been around since Paradise

[carmine field]

wdym?

[thorny wedge]

wait do we actually know that harvey was born from the black egg

[carmine field]

the devs said that

[thorny wedge]

ah neat

[carmine field]

I don't have access to the sources, they must have been lost over time

At least I discovered this information here on this server

[frosty wolf]

gold also appears in the cave!!

[errant estuary]

and paradox

[frosty wolf]

that person wasnt dale it was william. the scene was sort of just recapping what happened in rl roots: william drinks the elixir and somehow or later corrupts and aldous "the guy in a hat" turns into Mr. Crow

[median hemlock]

thank u i am so bad with the lore 😭

[hidden ledge]

So do you think best kept memory is albert's version of the white door

[frosty wolf]

? albert's behind it? i thought it was chad

[hidden ledge]

i thought he was just working for them, but at the station it's that one livestream room with the cube and albert was inside

[frosty wolf]

yeah ik albert's got something to do with it lurking in the background but chad is still the owner (or founder), no?

[hidden ledge]

was it said anywhere?

[frosty wolf]

i mean he shows up sort of as a representative of bkm

theres some video about the security breach and chad was speaking

[hidden ledge]

like who invited this guy chad to be part of the story

[frosty wolf]

um hes just there he doesnt really do anything he just goes "your memories are safe with us!"

[median hemlock]

but ||if the elixir corrupted william , why, in rusty lake mill, we see laura getting her memories extracted, and they say to be careful bc if we extract the bad memories she can become corrupted? is corruption related to the memories?|| (im really sorry im trying to understand the games better)

[frosty wolf]

there's extraction, there's coins on the eyes, there's this unknown corruption of william's soul so corruption can be caused by the extraction of memories but there seem to be some other ways too

[wanton heart]

My theory is that Mr. Owl is behind BKM the same way he's behind The White Door, I think both serve the same purpose of collecting/studying memories

[frosty wolf]

we havent seen mr. owl be affiliated with bkm yet tho

[median hemlock]

but what about dale? ||doesnt he get corrupt in paradox chapter 2?||

[frosty wolf]

yes that was by the blue vial

"embracing his corrupted soul" he does it seems

[median hemlock]

so by drinking the blue vial, he "embraces his corrupted soul" and ||kills laura||, so does that mean he investigated ||the murder he commited? or is it just laura's case that took a huge mental toll on him?||

[frosty wolf]

in the case of seasons and case 23 and now ||ub|| and even the cave it seemed Laura committed suicide or was possessed by a corrupted soul into doing so

but in the case of paradox dale was watching his own corrupted soul kill laura while at the lake

so suicide? or death by dale in the lake?

[errant estuary]

i think it was that ||he became so obsessed with finding the truth of her dying that they had to trick him into thinking that he was the killer||

[frosty wolf]

thats interesting

[errant estuary]

or something

[median hemlock]

that could make sense given the issues he has

[errant estuary]

because iirc ||cube escape paradox was entirely in his mind and nothing else||

[median hemlock]

oooooh

so thats why ||he keeps going back in a black cube at the ending?||

[frosty wolf]

but some stuff in there still reflected at least some parts of reality

[errant estuary]

yeah

[frosty wolf]

i mean theres got to be, dales mind can only project things he knows about though of course they may sometimes be wrong

[errant estuary]

||i just think that he was being manipulated in paradox||

[frosty wolf]

its definitely a test by owl and crow for dale

manipulation or not is a theory

[median hemlock]

isnt it more like crow? i dont remember owl in the game

[frosty wolf]

(bc ofc they wont directly tell us)

owl still has a part in dales story

[median hemlock]

yeah but he isnt in paradox so wouldnt it be more like crow's test for dale?

[frosty wolf]

thats wrong in paradox mr. owl directly tells dale that his time is almost up and that dale is the next ruler

its a co-made test by both crow and owl

most likely

his journey has been watched by crow and owl all the time

[median hemlock]

mb i just got home from school and my brain is not braining 😭

[frosty wolf]

rip

[median hemlock]

tho im excited bc my mom might buy me ub and apw today or tmmr so i could piece out the lore a bit more better :D

[errant estuary]

do you guys think harvey talked to laura when he was a bird?

because i birdsat a grey parrot, and it spoke a lot because they’re intelligent

[frozen pier]

no clue

[frosty wolf]

im not using my brain over harvey anymore that stuff is hella confusing

[frozen pier]

im replaying the games rn to get ready for ub and i just noticed how in seasons harvey repeats lauras screams when shes killed

in autumn

[errant estuary]

yeah

[frosty wolf]

dunno what that growl was in summer tho

[errant estuary]

that or she was screaming a lot

[frosty wolf]

of course she was

[errant estuary]

before death

[frosty wolf]

huh

in sadness or in fear

[errant estuary]

which i think might be appropriate because THE CEILINGS STARING AT HER USING THE LAMP

[frosty wolf]

thats just her mental health problems

prob hallucinations?

[errant estuary]

yeah, but if i saw that i think i’d probably scream too

[frosty wolf]

fr

[errant estuary]

unless i just went not verbal

[frosty wolf]

frozen in fear

[languid lantern]

I have not played paradox in a long time that slipped my mind. I forget Mr. Owl is grooming Dale to take over. It seems Mr Owl wants to be free but he needs succesor so he can let go.

[errant estuary]

darling it’s better down where it’s wetter

[frosty wolf]

i think its just owl doesnt have long and um hes about to turn into a fish soon

[languid lantern]

||So it looks Laura story is finish||

[frosty wolf]

woah there

watch it

[languid lantern]

||she immortal now with her mum||

[frosty wolf]

SPOILERS

u can go to the latest release spoiler thread for that

[carmine field]

Mr. Owl continues to work for Rusty Lake for at least another thirty years according to The White Door ARG

[errant estuary]

“reject humanity become fish”
mr Jakob Eilander also known as mister owl, 1972

[frosty wolf]

mr. fish

[languid lantern]

He did Mr.Owl found White Door

[errant estuary]

this is him when he finally retires

[frosty wolf]

[errant estuary]

he can just chill

[frosty wolf]

take a dip in the lake

[languid lantern]

I would love side game running the hotel and the White door

maybe we can play as dale after he take over if it goes that direction

[frosty wolf]

hes gotta reach the hotel first

[errant estuary]

||i love the fact that now mr owl has parallels to nicholas||

[languid lantern]

I would love game about the hotel being build

I do wonder who where animals in hotel and how it fit into the timeline

[frosty wolf]

there are theories about them being the eilanders but, ahem, there are some people who disagree with that

[languid lantern]

do tell

[finite stratus]

I agree with this but the only doubt I have is during theater when it’s Ms pheasant’s show and you need to balance items from her past life, one of the items is a fetus and I don’t think Elizabeth was ever pregnant

[errant estuary]

nah

i think she was playing a depiction of caroline, and the fetus might be representative of jakob, who was born to be sacrificed

[frosty wolf]

theres a lot.. im just pointing it out. honestly, knowing how the other side thinks (the ones who dont think they're the eilanders) im sort of in the middle about all this. the hotel guests have a slight resemblance to the eilanders and some seem to have the same characteristics but there isnt enough proof and neither do they seem exactly the same. i kind of forgot what the reason behind the theory that the eilanders aren't the hotel guests was but for sure whatever it was it made sense and i really do not have an opinion on this eilanders/hotel guests thing anymore

[errant estuary]

to me i think that they are

[frosty wolf]

maybe this'll work.. @vivid bridge

[errant estuary]

but that it was the next reincarnation that was going to be anthropomorphic animals

[languid lantern]

I thought they where Eilander as well

or in in another life

[vivid bridge]

yeah, there's a lot of evidence that the eilanders aren't the hotel guests

the character info we know about them doesn't add up, the personalities don't fit outside of boar and I guess rabbit. the whole thing with the window rabbit being the same as the bday rabbit

[languid lantern]

I always wonder who the guest where

What up with animal people since they can switch between humanity and animal form

There are immortal too or kind of one.

[frosty wolf]

i doubt the hotel guests can switch between animal and human; it seems only crow and owl can

[errant estuary]

nah, i think it is

[azure bay]

The devs already said that the rabbits are all the same character. The rest of the guests should be too no matter if it adds up or not.

The promo info could be retconned. The Eilanders could be introduced poorly. It's the devs' fault you don't believe them but it's true

[vivid bridge]

yeah I know but its dumb

[errant estuary]

both nicholas and mr deer are scientists apathetic to the danger of the lake and the island

on nicholas’ part i put a lot of quotation marks on “scientist”

[azure bay]

Hmm

For those who believe that Nicolas was the plague doctor, that kinda makes Nicolas a chemist

[errant estuary]

meanwhile, margaret seems to also know an archaic form of medicine, as she also gives instructions

[thorny wedge]

oh i never realized he could be the doctor, i was perfectly content with another guy just randomly showing up

[errant estuary]

and mrs pigeon knows another, more recent form of medicine focused on brains

[thorny wedge]

do we know whose mother margaret is

[azure bay]

On one hand, I agree. I don't get Nicolas vibes from him. And I theink the Eilanders could make an exception and invite an outsider if he's a specialist.

On the other hand, would they really?

[thorny wedge]

like nicholas or caroline i dont think i actually know

[errant estuary]

nicholas and gerard’s mom

[azure bay]

No, this one is far-fetched.

1. Margaret shows no medicine knowledge
2. Mrs. Pigeon is not biologist, she's electirc engineer

[thorny wedge]

makes me question where the hell they found caroline, a woman with inexplicably deep knowledge of the lake and alchemy and eventually of achieving immortality, to marry into the family

[azure bay]

Not sure if the devs themselves know the answer

[thorny wedge]

its mostly just pointless pondering for fun tbh

[azure bay]

Caroline is just there

[errant estuary]

they probably married first and happened upon the fact that “oh, that’s naraka at the bottom of the lake we live by”

[errant estuary]

she has diagrams of the brains and the cubes

[thorny wedge]

margaret nor nicholas show so much understanding of the lake, they seem like nothing more than servants really, they could've tracked caroline down and lured her into the family either so she would help their understanding of the lake, so they could remove her as a threat to the lake, or a mix of both

[azure bay]

Probably given by Owl. But she herslef solves technical problems

Like what voltage you need to emulate brain activity

Or how maybe to read it

[feral fox]

||did bob and laura go to the same school?||

[thorny wedge]

||oh that being bob was definitely my first thought, if that is bob then it would be safe to assume yes thanks to the seemingly same uniform, but it doesn't seem like it would be too important right now||

[errant estuary]

this is why i think rusty lake is a small town

[feral fox]

Apperently Harvey has been humanoid for some time, or else Lauras only friend has been harvey so much that shes known as the weirdo with the bird

||Because how else would Jimmy draw this||

[thorny wedge]

|| i assume harvey was human throughout underground blossom and therefore throughout different parts of all of laura's life, it seems he can change forms at will||

[feral fox]

so when did he gain the power in theory?

[thorny wedge]

i don't think we know, immortals are tricky to figure out in that regard

[feral fox]

Hm, also take the regards he can travel through time

so he might have travelled back to protect her?

In my theory, || He was a bird in seasons, until he flew away, in were he drunk smth to make him humanoid, after he time travelled or something||

[errant estuary]

ok so a theory: ||when laura was a kid he had his anthro form when rose had to leave, so he could care for her on that day, but when she was a bit more “independent” and/or was put in the foster system (guess work), he took on the form of an emotional support parrot||

||and the reason why Johnny drew harvey as a bird man is the photos he stole||

[feral fox]

Is everyone in rustylake just chill with all the animals running around?

[feral fox]

oh yeah

[errant estuary]

there’s probably weirder stuff

[feral fox]

Touché

[errant estuary]

or people simply think that it is shitty costumes

[feral fox]

I hope we'll see more of Harvey in the future games

[errant estuary]

||laura’s class is so small, like nine people (that’s usually the amount of students in a special needs class where i live, which is like a pretty small country)||

[feral fox]

||Maybe Laura was in a special needs class?||

||Or else the theory of small town could work||

||She lost her mother from a young age... And she seems to be an outcast||

[errant estuary]

yeah

||i think she is probably a withdrawn person||

because ||the rumor says she’s always alone, not that she is a freak or anything||

one of these is neutraler

[feral fox]

So the whole story from the beginning started with ||Two families? Who were friends (?), and then they started experimenting with immortality||

Whcih has lead all the way to ||Rose getting pulled back to the lake, away from Laura||

[errant estuary]

||i think that the eilanders probably didn’t know the vanderbooms, and the vanderboom brothers only knew about the elixir because of how prolific caroline became||

caroline has a painting, in a chapel

[feral fox]

What was the detectives last name?

Dales

[errant estuary]

vandermeer

[feral fox]

Does his family tie together too or?

[errant estuary]

as far as we know the vandermeers were simply roped into it

[feral fox]

Aw man

[errant estuary]

||but in my mind caroline was a vandermeer, but married nicholas eilander||

[feral fox]

That makes sense

[errant estuary]

||because the vanderbooms have the tree as motif, and the painting of caroline is called “lady of the lake”, which could be translated to “Lady Vandermeer”||

[feral fox]

Have anyone figured out how to log in as a doctor at the website yet?

[feral fox]

||So how many ladies of the lake are there if Laura is too||

[errant estuary]

||laura was likely going to inherit the title if she managed to win over dale in the dog fight||

[feral fox]

Hm

A donut in UB costs 50, but in WD it csosts 1,12?

[untold stump]

Bob had a hell of a discount

[errant estuary]

||the snack clerk is just an asshole||

the cheap food is inedible and the edible stuff is overpriced

[feral fox]

Well the ||the sandwich had worms||

[untold stump]

Also this game made it very clear that, in addition to Rose and Albert, ||Harvey also is in the lake||, what do you think that means ? Sorry if this has been discussed before, I just caught up with everything

[errant estuary]

||nah harvey’s just cruising||

[untold stump]

yeah but the fact that they're able to be here when Rose and albert had to use a golden cube to get there makes me wonder how they did it

[errant estuary]

because he is harvey

i think

[frozen pier]

could anyone just openly explain what arles is about

[errant estuary]

i think it is about vincent van gogh being unwell

[frozen pier]

okay but like how does arles tie to

rusty lake

in general

[thorny wedge]

i don't think we know

[errant estuary]

it just shows what kind of person is predisposed to corruption i think

[thorny wedge]

arles was made as a flash game before the universe was properly tied together, i think, so it shares some themes and iconography but it probably wasn't intended to tie into it (i could be wrong im certainly no rusty lake historian)

so we can theorize on how its linked but there's no direct proof

[frozen pier]

ohhh i see

im also trying to figure out that with harveys box

like he just gets taken after ||laura's killing but like by who? why???||

[thorny wedge]

i figured its him trying to get out of the box he was transferred into the lake cabin in cause he was left in it alone

[frozen pier]

okay but why is he going there

like why are they taking him

[thorny wedge]

||well laura went to the cabin for a mental health break like she tells bob, i'd assume she took harvey with her but then he got left alone after whatever happened to laura||

thats my guess

[frozen pier]

ohhhh

true

[errant estuary]

he’s her emotional support parrot

[feral fox]

(peak the star rail, sampo my beloved)

[feral fox]

(Max sampo here 🫡)

i find it Weird how Mental health and fishing connects to UB

Cause, ||Bob has a card to MHaF, and goes to white door in UB, or else he has come from it, but then in White Door he doesn't know where he is, he's confused, he takes pills. Even though be seems healthy enough, (if we say UB is prior to White Door), so why is he signed up to a White Door?||

[errant estuary]

||at first it was probably laura who was going to the facility, and after bob shot himself, he managed to remember the white door and admitted himself
he says that she is not well in sorrow cross, and this was likely why the breakup happened||

[feral fox]

🤔

[finite stratus]

||but bobs flashbacks run in opposite direction, we start the game with him remembering about the day he got fired then the breakup and then them meeting||

||that’s why white door happens after the bird station||

[untold stump]

White door happens after Laura died. But yeah, ||The bird bridge happens after the bird level (dream 7) of TWD because Bob meets Laura for the first time there, and in bird bridge he says "that woman ... I've seen her before"||

[errant estuary]

yeah

||who took care of laura when she grew up after albert took rose (aside from harvey)||

[untold stump]

||Probably social services, like Dale, Harvey probably wasnt in their anthro form but just as a bird at that time.||

||I think that if the person who took care of Laura mattered, they would have appeared in ub. Since noone was mentioned, that's probably a sign that whoever raised her isn't relevant to the story||

[errant estuary]

||the news man lol /j||

[frosty wolf]

"hands off!"

[errant estuary]

news man was so real for that

[untold stump]

||Harvey could ask him for lessons about how to not get robbed tbh||

[errant estuary]

||nah the news man got robbed while reading the news||

[untold stump]

Well ||Harvey got robbed one of the object they should have hanged on the best by a random guy and the news man got robbed one coin by a bird person of unknown powers, I feel like Harvey fcked up way more||

[errant estuary]

i don’t know why but if i novelized ub ||laura would definitely give the pickpocket the cigarette||

||she just has the energy that she’d do that||

[untold stump]

Also can we talk about ||Harvey being robbed ? The game is supposed to be metaphorical but what does that mean for the lost timepiece ? Did Harvey just lost it or did someone actually took it ? I have a hard time believing that they just didn't pay attention||

[errant estuary]

||i hc that laura had the timepiece, and got robbed by the robber, which is why he gets interrogated in soul station||

[feral fox]

What if the lake started expanding? With all the ||bodies|| in it

[cold plover]

||If The Past Within is indeed a different timeline (seeing as Rose manages to merge with her future self and still grow up to take care of Laura), that means that we still don't know what happened to the Rose that left Laura. (Also it means that the other Rose totally lied about what happened to her mom nice parenting lmao)||

[fossil oasis]

Plot twist: ||Old Rose was actually the Rose that had to leave Laura behind at Child Station with Albert.||

[fossil oasis]

And ||the coffee had a cigarette in it||

[stone bramble]

||any ideas on why laura would kill in seasons and choke harvey in the mill when harvey has been laura’s guardian since she was baby 👀||

||laura as a corrupted soul still calls harvey as a friend so maybe she forgave him later ||

[carmine field]

||Laura almost killed Harvey in The Mill||

||she was probably out of control||

[cold plover]

k ignore my stupidity (NO BC THAT'S SO EMBARRASSING LOL)

[burnt wing]

welcome to rusty lake, where you're writing down every last date and number sequence in everything you see in hopes it'll lead to something

[errant estuary]

ok so what i think happened is that ||laura was left behind by her mother as a child, which is part of her issues||

[finite stratus]

||I don’t get how Harvey is alive at the mill because in the original timeline, Laura kills Harvey but it’s only in winter of 1981 when CS Laura decides to save herself is that she saves Harvey from her older self||

[errant estuary]

||harveys immortal||

[azure bay]

||The thief arc as it is hardly makes any sense no matter if Harvey is a bird or a demigod||

[azure bay]

||Laura doesn't even seem to know about the timepiece until she's corrupted. The photos were all that was left from her mother, as she says||

[errant estuary]

hm

[untold stump]

Well we also know she has the dress from Rose and|| she didn't mention that either||

[azure bay]

||There's no problem with that. Albert kidnapped the future Rose. And her fate was partially revealed in BKM secret level||

[azure bay]

||I think the dress doesn't compare to such a valuable object as a golden pocket watch.

Also strangely she doesn't wear that dress until much later||

I wonder why

[untold stump]

OK so I'm thinking this game ||follows Seasons as in Soul Street we try to un-corrupt Laura. In ub we need the timepiece to do so, and in Seasons the 4 juices, and Harvey brings Laura one of them, the flower. Could the flower and the timepiece be like, connected ? Whether the timepiece was needed to get the flower or something else, they both help Laura getting uncorrupted, are brought by Harvey and are destroyed afterwards.||

[finite stratus]

||I like this but I don’t know how much weight we can put on minute details from seasons as it was the first game and I have a feeling the devs might’ve not thought that far into Laura’s life. But I agree about the uncorrupting aspect||

[remote remnant]

What do yall think the next game is going to be about?

[untold stump]

We dont really have a clue, for ub we could tell with some achievements that hinted towards a metro, and the devs talked about it. With the secrets in ub, maybe || a game about what Harvey and Owl are doing now in Hotel, or maybe that sprite of older Laura with long hair is meant to show that we'll see her again someday.|| But this is far too soon to get a clear answer

[carmine field]

||I don't believe it's the original timeline. Seasons' proposal from the beginning is Laura jumping between the cubes, which had already been extracted||

[finite stratus]

||I think it’s about the day of the lake as hinted by the end of UB and potentially seeing if Mr owl will have a successor (dale or laura) or if the cycle of all of this is broken||

[finite stratus]

||hmm so when do you think she kills Harvey in his cage?||

[carmine field]

||during her return to her memories after they were extracted at some point, but it's a little confusing||

||by changing her memories, she basically created a new timeline or something like that||
||the strangest thing is how Winter 1981 should fit into all this||

Actually, since we're talking about Seasons, I think I'll stop using spoiler tags 😅

[untold stump]

I feel like after Winter 1981, it's (ub spoiler)||the end of ub, she goes to the Lake with the help of Harvey.|| Even though it's really hard to tell with all the timelines involved

[finite stratus]

Interesting! The way I thought of it is that when Laura was feeling suicidal after her trip to the lake when she got attacked, she killed Harvey on a whim and then herself but then as a cs she chose to save harvey who in turn helped her save herself in winter

[carmine field]

Maybe it could be, but that event doesn't have a specific date
However, ||how would that ending that connects to The Cave fit into this?||

[untold stump]

The Cave happened before 1981 since Dale's in here. I guess I could argue that when they're in the Lake the time does not exist anymore.

That would not make sense. Hotel happens way before Laura is even born. I think ||Harvey meets Owl for a new mission at the end of ub. Maybe Owl has plans that needed Rose, Albert and Laura in the Lake, which would make Harvey kinda more spying on Laura more than taking care of her. It's hard to see which side Harvey is on, cause they have info on both Albert's and Owl's plans. But so far, the only side he's actively helped is Owl so if there is in fact a conflict between Owl and Albert, I'm more inclined to believe they're on Owl's side||

Also watch your spoilers!

[remote remnant]

i think ||The new RL game is going to be heavily linked with paradise as it will maybe take place on the hotel and i think the corrupted souls of the animals that we kill in Hotel are also going to play a major role||

[untold stump]

Oh you mean Harvey would kinda ||time travel ? Possible since they're in the Lake. If that's the case, they are probably keeping things away from everyone, but that would explain how Owl has access to all those info about Laura and even how he knew he had to contact Aldous in the Roots Alchemy level||

I don't know if anyone watched The Owl House here but there is smth I find similar to how I picture the Lake (spoilers for the Owl House) ||a world in between where the character could look at different point in space by looking in cubes, and I'm picturing the Lake as smth like that, just also allowing you to go through time as well||

[azure bay]

The devs said in 2021 thet there was an elixir in Seasons. Even if they didn't think it through back then. They did now

[azure bay]

No, Harvey was killed after she died.

There was already blood on the knife, Harvey was already mimicking her death cry, there was a newsflash and a funeral card

[vivid bridge]

More accurately, Harvey wasn't killed in the real world (he shows up in The Mill). He was only killed inside the seasons memories

[finite stratus]

Oh true I forgot about this! The more I think about the timeline the more confused I start to get

[azure bay]

||Well, technically the devs tell us that Harvey went back in time after having helped Laura and only then started helping out Owl and joining Crow in the mill||

[vivid bridge]

||I hate this world||

[untold stump]

Oh so it's confirmed that Harvey time travels ?