🤔｜theories

[azure bay]

basically he became corrupted because he was told to

and I think he killed Laura mostly for the same reason

he was told to

only that time he wasn't able to say no

because he was corrupted

[carmine field]

Why exactly was he told to become a corrupted soul?

Apologies for the delay

[visual coral]

Possibly so he could balance the substance of his past life

sorry for intruding your discussion

[azure bay]

Either to kill Laura

or to become semi-corrupted IRL

or both

or none

[carmine field]

Could he have killed Laura because, from the Elixir's point of view, she should be already dead?

[azure bay]

this answer would be too specific for our lack of evidence overall

on the other hand, case of Jakob-Caroline is very close and there was nothing like that

[carmine field]

About Case 23: Were the archives part of Mr. Owl's test?

[azure bay]

no idea

[vivid bridge]

They must be. Why else would Laura have that

[azure bay]

Because she loves photography?

[vivid bridge]

yeah but the folder looks too official to just randomly belong to some random woman

it looks like its from a police file or something

[azure bay]

just an office folder

[vivid bridge]

maybe you're right

Maybe the red lines is what locations she visited in that order? She arrived at the mill and ended up at the cabin?

I never thought about that

though technically she would have to walk over the bridge to get to the cave

but maybe she took the photo later

[royal notch]

I think the photos were ready for him. And not just those. Somehow, Dale managed to follow Aldous' steps, reporting them in the map.

[azure bay]

no evidence the map is connected to the story

[royal notch]

Yes, except the fact that the cave had probably been visited many times for the dog or else. Still not a proof anyway.

[azure bay]

yeah, don't see how's that connected either

[royal notch]

For how i see it, Dale collected evidence even about storytelling, hence the "tale" in the board. From there (and probably from other witnessing) he managed to follow the steps of the mill's owner. He may have been able to find the cave itself, but that wasn't in the plans.

[carmine field]

The password to the safe is only provided when Mr. Owl levitates Laura's corpse, which makes me think that maybe it could be part of the test

Maybe Laura really did have those pictures at home and Mr. Owl took advantage of them to test Dale

[azure bay]

that kinda looks like gameplay

[azure bay]

Finding some story that happened to be about someone secretely important doesn't seem to mean much without additional support

[royal notch]

Still better than nothing.

Considering also that, after seeing a body flying, you may get interested in a man that has been seen walking on water.

[azure bay]

But he wasn't. He was walking nearby

[royal notch]

Wasn't he "walking on the Lake"? I may be remembering bad.

[azure bay]

"Beside the lake"

[royal notch]

Alright then.

[azure bay]

Based on the bare minimum we know, Dale was interested in the lake in general

And collected all info he could find

We don't know his sources

May or may not be orchestrated

Each peace separately may or not

Maybe Owl thought that the cubes would be enough to pass the test Owl mentions directly

Maybr Owl wanted to test him seriously with no help whatsoever

Maybe Owl gave away everything Dale knows

We really don't know

[carmine field]

How would you define what the Lake is?

[azure bay]

a deity, a hell, a nirvana, a multiverse

a portal to all mentioned above?

[carmine field]

good definition

as for the cubes, I think an interesting definition for them is "windows to other realities" or something along those lines

or memories inside a container

[azure bay]

Considering TPW it's really more easy to comprehend cubes using your window analogy

[carmine field]

ye

[azure bay]

I don't think "it doesn't matter because it's a memory" stands anymore after that game

[carmine field]

Even so, it is important to take into account that the "windows to other realities" are generated from the extraction of memories

And so far we've never seen anyone enter a cube other than in the memory's owner's POV, right?

I also find it difficult that Mr. Owl has entered the CE: Theatre memory in order to explain all those things to Dale. I think it's much more likely that Mr. Owl from 1972 sent a message to Theatre's Mr Owl through the cube, or something like that

[carmine field]

Except for Laura during Fall in CE: Seasons, but if we consider the theory that the soul can coexist with the body, it makes sense

[azure bay]

Hotel and Paradise

In Hotel there's seemingly no pov at all

And in Paradise Jakob enters memories from the 3rd person too

[azure bay]

Honestly I wouldn't rule that out

[azure bay]

This one is unclear tho

On one hand, Laura's CS entering the cube as a 3rd person would explain visual and timeline oddities

On the other hand, it has to be Laura who ate Harvey's egg, as she admits it in Paradox

But my biggest problem with cubes being just memories is that memories are subjective and cubes aren't

They go beyond the owner's pov and knowledge

[carmine field]

I think I agree with you on that. Maybe realities are like a "what if" according to their respective memories and possible changes

A reality based on one's memories

[carmine field]

true, I forgot about Hotel

I kind of didn't consider Paradise because the memories were projected onto the real scenery

Like just a vision of what that memory represents, since Jakob's presence didn't change anything in the memories

I think the same could have happened in Hotel, but I don't know

[azure bay]

I think it's more like an artistic move rather than lore. Caroline wasn't really finding elixir in the toilet. It's just that her cave blended in.

[carmine field]

most likely

Thus I think it is possible to watch the cube content without entering the cube

[azure bay]

Another problem, these "what ifs" aren't really distinguishable from the supposedly real world. They don't even obliged to exist on the lower level of reality.

I think TPW obliterated the idea of these reality levels

[carmine field]

Is it possible that cubes are limited realities? just a guess
Realities based on one's experiences over some period, not a full reality

We know that multiple cubes can be extracted from a single person as well

Such as Caroline's cubes. Her cubes don't depict the same memories, so perhaps each cube is a different limited reality?

And maybe the blue cube is a key to turning these limited realities into full realities?

[azure bay]

I doubt that mostly because Laura could live inside her cubes for about 20 years. Limited realities would seemingly pose the food problem for her

[azure bay]

What I'm sure about, blue cubes are about moving time either forward or backwards. They are always associated with clocks

[bright parrot]

Idk why

But this kid in specific feels important/unique/important to game

By any chance anyone recognised him?

[visual coral]

nope

most likely it's just a one off character

[bright parrot]

His face is like jakob

And his hair are like a flower from roots

[azure bay]

I've noticed a different thing

We have 2 gender swaps

[carmine field]

Where is the first image from?

[azure bay]

tiktok, if I get it right

[bright parrot]

Maybe that's the part of puzzle

[bright parrot]

Their hair look a bit like flowers from roots?

[untold stump]

The puzzle where an ambiguously gendered parrot helps students figure out their gender identity. Truly only RL can offer us something like that

[azure bay]

For the redhead, kind of. But since it's just not the case for the rest of them, I'm pretty sure you're overthinking it

[fossil oasis]

Yep! It’s on the official TikTok account.

[vivid bridge]

I hope we see Laura in that school uniform

[untold stump]

I just thought about this, but in the Cave achievement there is a key for the 6th room of the hotel alongside the train ticket. Maybe one of the station is going to be the hotel

That and also in TWD Laura draws the hotel saying its a place she knows, so she probably went to the hotel before knowing bob.

[vivid bridge]

I think the parcel teases two different games. The clock, the cube metro paper and the Laura photo are teasers for Underground Blossom while the "The Golden Cube" card and the hotel key could be teasers for the game where Dale reaches the hotel and uses the golden cube

[royal notch]

For how the metro line of the demo is centered, we could think that the final game will have 6 stations. Since we travel along one Laura-centered timeline (and therefore assuming it's gonna be an happy one), we may think that the 6 on the key represents the final station of the game, the hotel itself.

[untold stump]

But if she went to the hotel, it was before she met Bob. And we saw in the trailer that one of the station include Bob so I dont think it'd make sense for a hotel station at the end.

But yeah i feel like the content of the box foreshadows something else like Ellesian said and the way Laura draws the hotel, from an outside perspective, can be because she spent time in the Cabin and saw the hotel island in the middle of the Lake, and never actually went inside

[royal notch]

Forget everything i said, the description in GPlay announces there are gonna be 7.

[covert wyvern]

Could that have been a reference to the arg station although I guess that's in the demo

[carmine field]

The cabin was abandoned

Which makes me think that Laura's stay was at the Hotel

After all, her trip was because she won a contest

[azure bay]

that's not something you usually advertise to regular players

[void wigeon]

@sudden dust I think Nicolas only married Caroline because she was smart

[sudden dust]

well they were on a stranded island, we dont know how long theyve been there or why

[void wigeon]

And because the sexist times if he married her he could control her . Especially since they live on an island too

[sudden dust]

i think nicolas does love his family but is extremely, extremely religious/spiritual (idk which one enlightenment falls in) and would sacrifice them if he believed he needed to

[void wigeon]

Also how tf did Nicholas get that fresh fit on an island

[sudden dust]

lmfao

[void wigeon]

That’s actually so much cooler

I love crazy religious characters

[sudden dust]

i think i give the “evil” characters in rl too much in depth personality

i personally believe even albert had his reasons (even if theyre barely understandable)

[void wigeon]

That’s the fun part though thinking about the why. Like did his mother bring him and Gerald up with it? Who knows

[sudden dust]

is gerald nicolas’ or caroline’s brother?

its jakob’s uncle, right
so its one of them

tho i’m pretty sure it’s nicolas’ because they look very similar

[void wigeon]

YES like in no way is he justified but we can safley assume he wasn’t treated well as a kid. The other two never got punished from what we saw . She gave him wine as a god damn baby

Yeah him and Nicolas are brothers

[sudden dust]

i think child’s play was only one example of their childhood

[void wigeon]

The families in this are so messed up it’s awesome

[sudden dust]

my idea is that samuel and emma are really mean or even abusive to albert

while mary did nothing

[sudden dust]

yeah, rusty lake characters have very good lore

[void wigeon]

Yeah. Like them two always thought of him as freaky becuase the birthmark. They didn’t even seem to show concern when they dropped a beehive on his damn head

[sudden dust]

his birthmark was kind of fine when he was younger, the wasp nest made him bleed and get his head scarred

and lose his hair

and maybe his sanity

[void wigeon]

I think he also mistook his friendly love towards Ida as love becuase the only other person to have ever cared for him is his mother

[void wigeon]

Oh most definitely

It my siblings did that to me you bet your ass I’m plotting to kill them

[sudden dust]

albert was the black sheep of the family

[void wigeon]

It’s even visually shown that

[sudden dust]

mary didnt care too much for her children

maybe samuel

but not much emma and definitely not albert

[void wigeon]

Samuel looks like his dad while Emma looks like her mother but Albert is just Albert

Idk if it was intentional but the design even show he wasn’t really a part of the family

[sudden dust]

actually, thats a pretty good theory

[void wigeon]

Yeah she probably only cared for Samuel in a TikTok boy mum way without the weird ||incestual|| stuff

[sudden dust]

um

[void wigeon]

That sounded better in my head

[sudden dust]

most people probably know this, but at childbirth (i think thats the name) the bottles of liquid each child gets represents what they become in the future

emma got rainwater and looks malnourished

albert drank wine and he’s albert now

and samuel actually got normal milk and is definitely the most normal of the family

now that i think of it i cant think of anything abnormal about samuel

[void wigeon]

He’s legit just some dude. He’s just some asshole dude that’s it

[sudden dust]

not sure as an adult but he was extremely mean to albert as a child

even more than emma

[void wigeon]

I think that’s also what makes him very different to the others. He was able to get a loving wife and a son. He had hobbies and a job. He was just some guy. It wasn’t the lake that twisted him he was just a twisted person

Like he wasn’t Albert twisted but he was a bad person

[sudden dust]

also for albert’s love of ida
considering albert’s fucked up mind he probably “loves” ida to spite his brother and give himself a reason to kill them

[sudden dust]

he wasn’t too bad after he grew up, still seemed like he had a terrible relationship with albert after all those years

[void wigeon]

I don’t think Albert ever loved Ida. Like it was all messed up feelings of spite and jealousy and just flat out pettiness

[void wigeon]

He probably just played it off all these years like ‘it’s just a prank bro’ while Albert is sitting there permanently disfigured

[sudden dust]

and then in tpw his diary says that ida broke his heart

she didn’t really, he just probably wanted her to seem like she was against him or smth like that

[sudden dust]

i love your descriptions of these

[void wigeon]

I think he has version of Ida in his head like this idealised version and that’s who ‘broke his heart’

[sudden dust]

also im pretty sure albert doesnt truly love anyone

even rose

[void wigeon]

Thank you I take pride in my stupid but somehow logical analysis

[sudden dust]

my idea of their relationship is that albert loves rose to some degree but still uses her as a tool

[void wigeon]

I think Albert might be a clinical psychopath or sociopath . Like he can care but never love

[sudden dust]

be back in a second my phones 1%

[void wigeon]

Okay

Like he knows he’s supposed to love his daughter because he’s seen people with their children but no matter what for everybody he is around there’s this wall that keeps him from truly feeling

[sudden dust]

alright im bacc

after i played tpw it seemed like albert was always taking advantage of rose in some way

[void wigeon]

Yeah like he never really had her best intentions at heart

[sudden dust]

rose had to leave laura behind ||to harvey|| to work on the cubical device

to revive albert

and looking at tpw i forgot the exact years but she had to work on the cubical device from the start after leaving the lake until she was an old lady

and it didnt do much for rose in the end, she just became a part of the lake while albert gets to be revived

[void wigeon]

I think it was around 50-60 years. Me and my brother have played it so many times it’s insane

Especially with the tech that rose has and how she handles things with the safety it probably around 50 odd years

[sudden dust]

yeah, tpw is very fun

something that’s interesting to me is that albert is an alchemist, magic (?) practitioner and knows stuff to make the cubical device

[void wigeon]

Also one thing I noticed in them which eveybidy probably knows is the differences between the bee and butterfly ones like how he has rose and him in the pocket and idea in the bee

[void wigeon]

Albert probably spent his entire life learning about it so he knew if he failed he couldn’t be blamed so then it would be one last win for him because rose woudk feel guilty

[carmine field]

I don't know if that would be the real reason. Imagine abandoning your own daughter only to dedicate your entire life to a plan to revive your father. This gives the impression that Rose is just a horrible mother, which is at odds with her appearances in UB

Rose makes it clear that she had no choice. Something compelled her to leave Laura in the care of ||Harvey||

I wonder if it has to do with that corrupted soul at the end (supposedly Albert)

[strange raft]

Maybe Albert's CS threatened her?

This feels like possible UB reveals

[azure bay]

Not necessarily. He could truly love her but probably loved his god more.

[azure bay]

Obviously they don't live in complete isolation. Good clothing isn't the only thing they use but hardly can produce

[azure bay]

I wouldn't say they looked that much like their parents

[azure bay]

I don't think they were fed these liquids all the time. If anything, it's only a foreshadowing for the player, not necessarily an indicator of Mary's level of affection. Alcohol btw was used to put children asleep back then.

Any other evidence of Mary playing favorites with her children?

[azure bay]

Albert was capable of more or less healthy relations. Otherwise he wouldn't be depicted as a nice father worth resurrecting. So probably his feeling towards Ida weren't as deeply messed up as you assume.

I wouldn't rule out Ida having actually wronged Albert in some way.

[azure bay]

objection. He greatly rewards her too. It's already not "just a tool"

[azure bay]

He led her to nirvana. It's the biggest spiritual achievement anyone can ever wish for.

[azure bay]

A friend that went to gamescom says it wasn't the real reason

[carmine field]

I don't rule out this possibility

[stone bramble]

my interpretation of emma is that she wasnt as mean to albert as much as samuel was. she only got physical with him was when albert started to push her. it was to get his butterfly tho so who knows maybe she was another bully

I think samuel picked on both of the siblings tbh I think albert got the worst of it + internalized it more. like you can also shoot emma with the lil balls samuel throws

[stone bramble]

me tooo!!! albert's diary he writes something like "rose is my greatest achievement" like that reads to me as albert being proud that he was able to create her than like yay parenthood I cant wait to watch her grow up and care for her :)

[azure bay]

In The Past Within it was shown that she stole his butterfly. There was a photo where Albert actually got it.

[stone bramble]

oh yee youre right. I checked back on the level it seems albert had caught it before emma stole it too

poor albert just wanted his pet to have some fresh air and emma stole it i guess 😔

[azure geode]

Why is Mr. Crow stitched up in Mill and Case 23?

[leaden rain]

Nice question

But i dont have the answer:(

[azure geode]

I assume Mrs. Crow did it

[leaden rain]

Could be

But i thing it is to keep the human head in shape

Yknow mr Crow is a-crow and sometimes the crow head comes out and maybe the human head becommes damaged-like a mask

[azure bay]

I think it's stitched primarily for a disturbing imagery. We never see him like that outside that time period

[azure bay]

and I think they have perfect control over their bird looks

[leaden rain]

Sorry i forgot to tell the actuql thing i wanted to say

[gleaming pond]

im pretty sure i read a theory somewhere that it was from his wife (the old lady in the wall in mill) but idk why

[azure bay]

I read it too but it never went beyond wild guesses

[gleaming pond]

could be wrong its just a theory lolz

[gleaming pond]

yeah

[azure bay]

there's physically nothing that would suggest that over any other guess

[gleaming pond]

thats true, then again most things in the lore are truly just guesses from the players lol

[azure bay]

yes but many have at least some evidence

[gleaming pond]

true

[azure bay]

like an old debate memories vs reality about cubes

even in Seasons they are called both memories and the past

In TWD Sarah erases Laura from Bob's head and seemingly from there only

but in TPW the supposed memory traps the supposed reality in a golden cube and manipulates it

both are theories

and both have a ton of evidence across the games

[stone bramble]

maybe it could be crow’s wife who sewed him up if she didn’t want his crow side coming out

[untold stump]

Ooh thats right she's knitting in the Mill and sewing could be considered close enough. But then why would Crow need to be sewed only with Dale but still show up in a lot of other places (TWD, Theater) just in his human form ?

[fossil oasis]

Theater was, at least, in Dale's mind the whole time, so logic wouldn't make much sense there. Can't say anything about TWD, though.

[stone bramble]

the only theory I can come up with is that she doesn’t like when her husband comes home in crow form lmao

it’s like taking your shoes off before entering the house

mr crow just needed dale’s help to cut his mouth because he forgot to do it before he left the mill

this is a joke but also it would be funny if true lol

[azure bay]

No, I wouldn't say Theatre was literally Dale's mind. Paradox was, it literally took place inside Dale's head. But Theatre is a "memory", stored in a physical cube physically floating around the lake. And in TPW cubes were proved to be pretty much real

Theatre's content could be altered

but likely not beyond Owl's physical capabilities

He seemingly can't do more than he can in the reality

For instance, if he wanted Dale to remember himself as the president, Owl would have to win the election for him

[azure bay]

As I said, there's nothing that would more or less definitevely point out that possibility among all the rest

I've heard that in the Chinese community it's widely believed that it was Owl who stitched Crow's mouth

and still

no evidence

[void wigeon]

I love how rusty lake gives us everything but god damn answers

[frosty wolf]

because i dont think thats the point. it sort of gets some basic things straight and the rest is up to our interpretation

and theories;)

[azure bay]

sometimes new games actually do prove some theories wrong

like

Mr. Owl was saying "Welcome to the theatre of your mind"

Bob shot himself and went corrupted using the same animation from Case 23

that's meant to take place a year after

Bob going back to normal makes no sense

So I thought he actually shot himself in the police station using the officer's gun

then he went corrupted and killed the officer

but here comes The White Door and Bob shoots himself with Crow's gun

[stone bramble]

have you made sense of why harvey is back to his hotel form instead of being a regular bird

[frosty wolf]

(yeah i was just saying i doubt/wouldn't like it if the devs just said this and that happened)

[stone bramble]

rusty lake has so much lore it’s hard to juggle everything in my mind

I do like the implication of things in rusty lake where we don’t really know what happens but also I wanna know 😩😩

[azure bay]

It doesn't make sense. Samsara wheels insist he's a bird. And he's a bird during important events of Laura's life.

since 7 Underground stations merely "symbolize Laura's past and potential future"

e.g. are not an actual subway

so I think is Harvey

not an actual anthro form

the subway is a stage

the anthro form is a costume

[stone bramble]

ohh so kinda like theater

[azure bay]

or an artistic choice

But Harvey is still one of the biggest mysteries of the series

notably how he became asura in the 1st place

or how he lives for 90 years

[vivid surge]

Harvey is a bird that reached enlightenment, if samsara affects every life form so the animals in Paradise also suffered the effects

[azure bay]

You are making 3 logical leaps:

1. That a specific ritual performed by specific people didn't affect them exclusively,
2. That its effect is the same for all creatures.
3. That Harvey was right on the island at the time and not, for example, on the main land.

Samsara does affect every life form indeed but it does so on the individual level, under specific circumstances and with different rules for different types of creatures. For instance the Roots dog. It did consume the elixir and it did win its lottery. But it wasn't enlightened.

[royal notch]

I don't agree here. In TPW we have seen alteration made by particular and limited technology, but Dale's memories are being altered by the Lake itself. We don't know how much its abilities can be powerful.

[azure bay]

You point would stand if only the cubical device affected things exclusively inside the black cube

but consequentially the changes return

and not from the "inside"

the changes come from the outside. Outside the golden cube

what's more, the changes I'm talking about aren't directly tied to the cubical devices

Roses can still communicate when the cubes are outside the devices

and that's enough to change history

[royal notch]

Not enough to infiltrate in a family pretending to be a grandpa.

[azure bay]

no, it's not

but saying that the lake can do that is quite a leap

replacing grandpa is a peculiar task

very specific

too specific, I think, for the limited intelligence the lake manifested so far

[royal notch]

Maybe it isn't. After all,it also gain something, its goal is common to the enlighteneds.

[azure bay]

I see their goals differ a bit

Owl sees Dale as his successor

but the lake will be greatful if he sacrifices himself so Laura's saved

[royal notch]

It's only one phrase in Paradox that implies it. But in any case, after Paradox, in the timeline we are following, it's Dale that is the chosen one. Therefore, the Lake will have to adapt and give its part on the plan.

[azure bay]

The point stands. Lake's somehow limited if it has to adapt to Owl's will. Limited either in power or intelligence or maybe even both. While both are needed to bend the reality of a cube in such a specific way

[royal notch]

So specific that, i believe, only the Lake can alter. We are using the same point at the opposites.

[azure bay]

and you are doing it wrong

I do mean that it requires both power and intelligence

Power to do it in the 1st place

and intelligence to do a lot of very specific things so the cube inhabitants don't notice that

but the fact that The Lake can't do anything about Owl not choosing Laura means that it lacks at least 1 of these requirements

[royal notch]

Ability to resurrect a person?

Because that would have been the first thing to do.

[azure bay]

I'm not speaking of how Laura would be saved

the game just said she would be

but that's not the way Owl choses

[royal notch]

Why can't it just be a lie?

To see how pure Dale's hearth is?

[azure bay]

It's not only somebody speaking to Dale, mind you

It's also the devs speaking to us

Notes, spoken dialogs and disembodied exposition are the only ways for the devs to send us a clear message

To explain how things work without us messing up

plus we see the aftermath of Dale's choice

He's dead, he doesn't reach the lake, he doesn't enter the cube, he doesn't return corrupted so he doesn't kill Laura and the cube changes to white

and what's important

the loop is broken

it depended on Dale reentering the cube

[royal notch]

So now we got 2 dead bodies. Laura's salvation isn't shown in any way, nor how Dale's aftermath can consequential mean that.

A soul for a soul?

[azure bay]

I take for granted that Laura is saved. It's possible to imagine how it happened but it's not that important

[royal notch]

With all the deads in the series, a bit of a clarification wouldn't be refused.

[azure bay]

I agree

the devs do need to show us more eventually

maybe in UB

maybe in Dale's finale

[royal notch]

I still don't understand the TPW final.

Why the cycle breaks instead of perpetually going on?

[azure bay]

did you watch my videos about it?

[royal notch]

Of course, but also there i didn't find the answer. It just happens.

[azure bay]

1st of all, every reality is a cube that's in one way or another is in the lake

if not directly then inside another cube that is

What would you expect if 1 Rose chenneled her consciousness into a cube?

[royal notch]

She gets in the place of her avatar in that cube, if there is.

[azure bay]

yes

[royal notch]

Like Dale on his journey.

[azure bay]

yes

but what if said avatar is in the middle of channeling their consciousness back?

[royal notch]

She gets back on her place, but then goes again on the avatar, and so on. Same for the other.

[azure bay]

and it also speeds up

[royal notch]

Why?

[azure bay]

because the process is caught each time in the middle

[royal notch]

Oh, right.

[azure bay]

and eventually it speeds up so much that it
a) merges 2 consciousnesses together
b) breaks a barrier to the lake

not sure what's primary here

[royal notch]

Sorry, are you saying that it does one of the 2 or both?

[azure bay]

The do both but not sure what they do 1st. Do they merge because they reach the place where time does not exist or they reach that place because they are now one in 2 different points in time?

[royal notch]

Wild-guessing, the second one. 2 soul are the same one, but being 2 because of time difference. Becoming again one, time gets "denied", and here is the Lake. Maybe.

So I believe "a" it's first.

Thank you for clarification, anyway!

[steel imp]

Harvey is a personification of the lake counciousness

[azure bay]

would be cool

but why is Owl unaware?

[steel imp]

Who told you he's unaware?

[azure bay]

"Thank you for the memories, the lake will be grateful. And Harvey, I'm really glad you brought the cigars. "

[steel imp]

Rifht

Ok, there are chronological reasons

Now, for a moment, exlcudin UB, ldt's brieafly hypotize that some Harvey apparition are not easter egg, the Hotel one in particular

Harvey appeared there, out of the window

[azure bay]

no, in Hotel he's only the protagonist

[steel imp]

Harvey was around much longer than Owl

[steel imp]

Oops, I meant Paradise

Sorry, I haven't chatted here for a while

Point being, Owl has no clue on what Harvey jas been doing before

He just knows that he has been willing to collaborate with him

Now, if Harvey is the personification of the lake, Samsara shouldn't matter for him, so he got turned into an Asura by choice

When he "dies", the Lake just looses control of his body, and needs to be reconnected manually by Crow (whit Crow unknowing, since the big ray of light is a lake invocation that has been shown to do different things, much like a pray)

[azure bay]

the last part seems counter-intuitive

if you do something, especially in magic, you are meant to know what you're doing

[steel imp]

Afaik, the big bold light has been used to teletrasport Dave and with Harvey

It's not a predictable event

So my idea is that the ray acts as a lake invocation

My other clue is that Harvey resides in the cabin (after Laura's death) however in Case 23 Chapter 4 we find no Harvey (the only cube escape where the lake helps someone directly)

And besides, we have conflicting informations about both the lake and harvey, rhat are still form kf discussion in the community

Now, do I belive this 100%? Ofc no

[royal notch]

I believe the opposite. The ray is a kind of representing the magic by the lake, that follows the enlighteneds desires. First Mr Owl calls upon the Lake to resurrect Harvey, even if in a minor form, and then to "bring storm" once he founds Dale.

[steel imp]

But it does make sense

[steel imp]

Yeah, not likely. You see, there are other forms of lake powers that are used in a prectiable way, however the ray is the only wildcard

E.G.: cube incapsulation

[fossil oasis]

And besides, didn’t Harvey appear in Paradise as a plain ‘ol bird?

[floral mauve]

We don’t know

We never know when or whether Harvey is conscious in that form or no

Consciousness as human or higher form

[azure bay]

Technically, he was is HB

And it all seems the same in UB

[carmine field]

is it true?

[carmine field]

(please ping me)

[azure bay]

What is true?

[carmine field]

The mill leaves becoming Naraka

[azure bay]

yes, that's true but it's a bug

[carmine field]

If true, it could be a clue that Dale's next stop would involve Naraka

[azure bay]

nah, it was his departure point

[carmine field]

Isn't the red setting strange?

[azure bay]

I think it's red closer to the surface. If I'm not mistaken, it's that red on early flyers

[azure bay]

I'm speaking of flyers

[carmine field]

oh

[azure bay]

my theory is, the blades are technically all the same sprite with 6 states depicting different colors and texts. Naraka state is just the default one and it's chosen because you are meant to send the mill away before talking to Owl. The devs just didn't assign the right values for Mr. Owl's close-up

[carmine field]

It makes sense

Thanks

[azure bay]

@carmine field Now as I'm thinking of it, it doesn't look that red on them

still, Naraka is the bottom, the forest

it's around Dale in Bday

but gone in Theatre

I think it's because Theatre is closer to the surface

[carmine field]

Sorry, I fell asleep

Thank you, anyway

[carmine field]

In a way, it makes sense. Bday was the worst moment of Dale's life

Which generated a trauma that Dale only managed to overcome with his journey in the Lake

[errant estuary]

ommahsjnahahha that is brilliant

[azure bay]

I wouldn't affiliate a bad cube with hell. What about all the good cubes that are also there?

[errant estuary]

i want to know if the eilanders knew the lake was naraka

cus then the fact that they stay makes some sense (microdosing lake)

[azure bay]

Honestly, I don't really see why it's hell

I know it somehow is. At least samsara wheels call it so. But it has nothing to do with the biblical hell, for example

No apparent suffering sinners

[errant estuary]

i mean, the thing with the souls is that they are hungry

[azure bay]

I didn't get what you mean

[errant estuary]

i don’t know, the fact that the lake bottom is considered an afterlife in the rusty lake universe

and they’re living just above the water that is full of forest

[azure bay]

But it's not an afterlife

At least, not by the usual definition

[errant estuary]

cause some or most of the souls seem to just chill in the lake

[azure bay]

Yes but do we call the Vanderboom house an afterlife simply because William's soul prefered it over the lake?

The guests aren't even trapped there

[errant estuary]

what i’m trying to ask is did they know the lake had ghosts?

[azure bay]

Sure thing, it was the object of their cult

[carmine field]

I've been talking to a Buddhist about this and various Rusty Lake things

One of the interpretations of hell is that of a feeling of constant suffering, as someone who is overwhelmed and cannot progress in any way, as they are trapped in the realm of hell

[azure bay]

it seems applicable to a person's life, not the lake

[errant estuary]

i’m looking up hungry ghosts right now, and it seems like they are driven by intense emotional needs in animalistic ways

and apparently, preta seem to perceive differently from a human, if a human and a preta look at the same river, humans will see water, and pretas unsightly things

[azure bay]

so what is your message?

[errant estuary]

just interesting

[carmine field]

I don't imagine that the Lake is hell in itself, but rather the red forest, which perhaps represents someone's state of suffering

It's difficult to theorize because we never actually saw the forest turn red

There was only one time we interacted with a red forest, and it was in Samsara Room

[azure bay]

the devs said that the forest at the lake bottom is naraka

[carmine field]

Yes, but the forest at the bottom of the Lake does not appear to be an extremely unpleasant place

Maybe it's relative, from person to person in-universe, but I don't know

[azure bay]

I agree but I mean that. They did say it out loud

I have only one theory that makes the forest a place of suffering

we should assume that the trees are souls

but still there are ifs and buts

Rose doesn't seem suffering there

for her it looks more like nirvana

[carmine field]

It is also possible, since the images of the wheel are somewhat literal

Asuras are asuras, devas are devas, hungry ghosts are hungry ghosts

In certain interpretations of Buddhism, the six paths are actually allegorical

representing the ups and downs of someone's life

While in Rusty Lake, the wheel beings are literal

[azure bay]

it's somewhat applicable

the devs also said that everyone has a corrupted soul. It's basically a person's dark side

damn

I've just realized

Why didn't I notice it before?

the notion of facing one's corrupted soul was voiced in 2 games

in Paradox that we don't understand much

and in TWD which is much clearer

TWD could potentially explain some parts of Paradox

[carmine field]

definitely

I have to leave later, but first I want to open a topic about a reflection I had while talking to my Buddhist friend

The Asura, according to Buddhism, are beings who constantly war with the Deva, aiming for the top of the wheel

However, it is very different in Rusty Lake

The Asura in RL are just people who serve one purpose: to feed the Lake. Those who are not like this seem to live their own lives and have their own purposes

[azure bay]

that's not true. It's Owl's mission specifically. The rest do what they feel like

[errant estuary]

i think mr crow wants to get even higher too

[carmine field]

I agree

[errant estuary]

anyways here’s a concerta riddled shitpost theory: margaret and nicholas were surgeons

[carmine field]

My point focuses more on the Rusty Lake staff: even if what they do is not necessarily bad, they generate bad things

They create the corrupted souls

Meanwhile, the only Deva we know has the purpose of stopping the corrupted souls

While one creates evil, the other stops it

Therefore Deva and Asura

[azure bay]

these are all special cases, not general laws

[carmine field]

Yes, it's just a case

We don't see Dale in action and we know little about the Asura society

But it is possible to think of it as the dynamic between them

[errant estuary]

a thing that is interesting is that mr owl seems to lure distressed people to his establishment for the purpose of feeding their memories to the lake, which is… disturbing

[carmine field]

The Lake needs memories because memories need the Lake

I don't see this as something necessarily evil, but its consequences can be bad

[carmine field]

I don't think that's the case

[errant estuary]

oh

[carmine field]

Thinking better, perhaps the dynamics of Samsara are just a way of illustrating some things in the universe rather than being a general law

After all, we see strange things on the wheel several times throughout the series

People alternating several times between the state of corrupted soul and human...

And maybe Harvey too

Of course, there are ways to explain these inconsistencies

But it is still a possibility too

[azure bay]

the devs said that every creature goes through samsara and the lake has nothing to do with that. They also said that people can shift between states and even go back. There are also some states in between

like CS with "dresses" are more corrupted than CS with legs

[carmine field]

So forget what I just said

😔

[void wigeon]

I have no evidence for this theory but Albert was both the vodka aunt to his nephews and a cigarette mum to rose . It makes sense .

[carmine field]

Did you come to any conclusions?

[carmine field]

What are these terms? I'm not familiar with them

[void wigeon]

A vodka aunt is like that one shitty aunt who really doesn’t care , gives you morally and legally questionable advice and probably has or will go to jail. They also probably don’t care about you. Also usually an alcoholic

A cigarette mum is like a shitty mum who does care but in a very very little and distant way. They are really rude and shitty but would never lay a finger on the child. They are also usually chain smokers .

Basically just a shitty aunt and a shitty mum

Make those two tropes a boy then boom Albert

[carmine field]

Actually, I think Albert had a great relationship with Rose

[void wigeon]

That is a cool take too!

[carmine field]

Reading his diary in TPW and seeing the photo of them together you can see that the love was mutual

[void wigeon]

True and he did call her the closest thing to his heart in the butterfly version (I think)

[carmine field]

Although Rose may have discovered, one way or another, the atrocities her father did

[void wigeon]

She probably hates him but loves him in that way of a family bond. Like why else would she revive him but would she forgive him for what he did to everyone else

[carmine field]

Rose even saved Frank and seems to have forgiven him for her father's death

(at least that's what it seemed like to me)

[void wigeon]

If not we would have probably seen or gotten hints to her taking revenge in some way

[carmine field]

Actually maybe there could be a reason why she revived him

But let's wait for the train to arrive

[void wigeon]

If that game messes up everything we just said I’ll be laughing so hard

[carmine field]

I don't think it will change everything, but there may be some hooks for TPW

It's very strange that Rose abandons Laura

There's a reason, we just haven't figured it out yet

And I think it's unlikely that Rose just abandoned Laura to dedicate the rest of her life to reviving her father

[azure bay]

I've got a small theory

what if Albert knew at least something about his death from his dream described in TPW Demo/Lite?

[frosty wolf]

that "something" can be anything.. what do you think it is?

[azure bay]

Based on the dream, at least the fact itself. Based on his diary, could also know about the game of chess

[frosty wolf]

i suppose he did, i mean he wrote this stuff in his diary

[azure bay]

The problem is, we can't know what exactly he knew in between these 2 extremes

[frosty wolf]

well, if he knew that he would die after he lost his chess game, then he knows that he would still die. these two don't seem too extreme to me, as they both end the same way

[azure bay]

that doesn't work the other way around and thus they are different.

He knew he'd die from the dream, but there's nothing indicating him knowing about the chess (from the dream I mean). He could learn that somehow else.

[frosty wolf]

according to the demo, the dream was written in his diary and in the full game so was the chess scenario. if they were the same diary then thats interesting, and if they weren't, then that could mean the demo's content isn't really correct/canon?

(gonna go sleep)

[azure bay]

I see no problem with them being the same diary. I see a problem with them being the same entry

[floral mauve]

I also wonder the chess logic

Like

Did he make a bet with Frank or other way round that who win the chess can kill the other?

Grandmaster Frank

If it’s metaphorical then what it’s referring to

[royal notch]

When was this confirmed?

[azure bay]

on gamescom 2023

[royal notch]

I knew it!

[azure bay]

but they are still usually ghosts

[royal notch]

But still the irrational side of everyone.

[azure bay]

not necessarily

[royal notch]

Dude, you just said it was confirmed.

[azure bay]

I said dark

I never said irrational

[royal notch]

Okay, pardon the word...

For irrational i meant the fact that a corrupted soul are usually the dark, secret emotions that lies in any of us. Kinda Freud's ego.

Even if some seems more calm than others, everyone wants to fulfill his desires. Except Caroline, though.

Unless she gained something too from Jakob's enlightment.

[azure bay]

that's exactly why I'm cautious with further interpretations

the best course of action is to analyze what we have and how that corresponds the "dark side" term

[royal notch]

For now i keep thinking as total memory extraction as the main form of body corruption.

[azure bay]

but that's not

Caroline didn't have her memories extracted in that sense

nor did the guests

nor William, nor Albert, nor Dale, nor Bob in TWD

[royal notch]

I said body corruption. Caroline was burned, the guest were eaten. All the Vanderbooms didn't lose their memories, except Albert, that lost his brain. An accidental extraction, anyway. Laura lost her memories once dead like him, Dale lost them at the Lake and Bob too, but it's still unclear how. I know you'll say that my brain is seeing a pattern, but i can't do anything about it. 😅

[azure bay]

Strangely enough, Albert didn't lose his memories.

his soul acts coherently

all according to his plan

both souls, by the way

the one that ended up in the resurrection tank

and the one that created the golden cube

[royal notch]

Another counter-point: his corruption happened strangely late.

[azure bay]

dunno

officially, Laura was corrupted a year after she was kidnapped

[royal notch]

Immediately after the extraction.

[azure bay]

//_-

there was no extraction for Albert

his memories are with him

he remembers the plan

both before and after resurrection

with no cubes being taken out and put into him

[royal notch]

I honestly believe corrupted souls don't need a brain and therefore no way to remember. They just do. Laura managed to revive himself, she needed to know where she lived, what she needed for the phone ecc. Bob remembers while being corrupted. Caroline remembers about her life, since she waits for his son down in the cave. The guests immediately attacked Harvey before anyone else. Albert may just remembering everything like them.

Only William forget everything, but because in the process to be a new soul.

[azure bay]

1. BKM implies that when memories are extracted, they are gone. Corrupted or not, I think
2. William's memories are still inside Laura, she just doesn't have access to them

[royal notch]

Do you trust a misterious company created for an ARG instead of all the other games? Once extracted, the memories become cubes.

[azure bay]

yes they are cubes, and they are no longer in the person's head/soul. Don't affect it anymore. Don't cause traumas. That's what I'm saying

[royal notch]

I misread, sorry.

But still, for now we haven't seen a corrupted soul without memories.

[azure bay]

Laura basically

Seasons don't count because they take place much later down the timeline

and they are cubes she's entering from outside

[royal notch]

What do you mean?

[azure bay]

Seasons works like Birthday

a cube you need to enter in order to do something with it

and the cube needs to be outside your head

somehow

it's easy for Laura because her cubes are already outside

[royal notch]

Please, go on.

[azure bay]

I don't know what else to say

[royal notch]

Oh. I missed the important point.

What were you trying to say?

[azure bay]

Laura is that example of CS with no memories

(except for those she made after her death)

[royal notch]

I don't understand why.

[azure bay]

because they were extracted

they are no more in her head

her memories belong to the lake

all she could do is to leave them behind

or at least wait for an opportunity to reclaim them

[royal notch]

Albert memories were extracted, yet he remembers.

[azure bay]

they were not

he wasn't connected to a machine

he didn't produce cubes

that's what matters

not brains

that's why Laura has no memories and Albert has all of them

[royal notch]

The brain remains the organ that produces memories, even if them become cubes once extracted (the machine in the mill clearly works with Laura's brain). But i accept that this is hard to believe, i personally felt like an idiot once i saw Albert's corruption and didn't realize until then that his sacrifice was his brain. So i am following you here. But what about Bob?

[azure bay]

not in RL universe. They correlate but they are not the same.

memories are beyond the brains

most souls have no brains but they have memories

Laura's soul somewhat has a brain but no memories

that's what Crow says

"the memories are no longer yours, forget about them"

that's why she's pissed

[errant estuary]

no wonder why a lot of the corrupted souls seem angry

or just very upset

[royal notch]

Then why do Caroline, Bob, and probably the guests remember?

[azure bay]

because they were not extracted

Caroline kept outside only 10 cubes that contained elixir elements

Bob doesn't remember much until Owl's interventions

and the guests somewhat ARE their cubes in Hotel

[errant estuary]

caroline kept all of her fnaf lore memories

so for her it wasn’t all empty/j

[royal notch]

Still remembers something.

[azure bay]

yes, and that doesn't contradict a thing I said

[errant estuary]

i’m guessing that the memory loss is kind of like traumatic brain damage and amnesia

[royal notch]

You're saying that memory extractions strictly requires a machine. It's not confirmed.

No, wait.

That corrupted souls generated by memory extractions are without memory.

[azure bay]

I'm saying that memories are primarily connected to the soul, not the brain. If you want a person to forget something for good, you take cubes from them. But if you take brains, that doesn't affects their soul.

[royal notch]

Now you are literally sustaining my point, at least partially.

[azure bay]

that doesn't bother me

Laura has corrupted over her body including her brain, but she clearly has no cubes about her past

Albert was corrupted without a brain but he clearly has all the memories he needs

brains don't matter

cubes do

thus there was no cube extraction for Albert

and thus it wasn't the reason of his corruption

and since it wasn't for so many souls, it's not the primary corruption reason in general

especially considering that you can extract memories and the person has a chance to stay normal

[royal notch]

Because it's alive, sure. The problems starts with dead people.

[azure bay]

explain the rule again

[royal notch]

I believe total memory extraction causes an heavy predominance of the corrupted soul of the interested person. That's because corrupted soul are the dark side of anyone, as it got confirmed. Finding yourself without any memory means that you feel you don't have an identity, you don't know where are you, when are you, WHY are you. It's kind a philosophical conception that i'm following. This sense of nothingness is perfect soil for your deeper emotion to assert predominance. Hence corruption. 2 cases: if the person is also dead there's nothing to do, the corrupted soul will get over the body. But if the person is alive, there's still time: if the person manages to stand up to his corrupted soul, finding his place in the world, will to live and recollection of his past, he manages to overcome his corruption. Everything i said so far is for body corruption. The other corrupted souls can always exist as ghosts.

[azure bay]

Dead body corruption during extraction is not predetermined

[errant estuary]

it is a risk

[azure bay]

Owl says "use the machine wisely, you may corrupt the body"

[errant estuary]

but not certain consequence

: “that sign can’t stop me cause i can’t read”

[azure bay]

Also it's exclusively about bad memories

White cubes are ok

[royal notch]

We already talked about this and i honestly don't want to repeat the same discussions over and over. I just believe that as a warning to be ready. But i'm ending here.

[errant estuary]

so i guess that the extraction of black cubes may feel like experiencing the bad memories again

[azure bay]

There is difference between "will" and "could". You can't argue about that.

So please stop

[carmine field]

Is a spoiler thread going to be created when UB is released?

[covert wyvern]

Thinking about what's most convenient

Maybe we can rebrand tpw spoiler thread to a latest release spoiler thread or something

[errant estuary]

content warning for body/medical horror, particularly eyes also spoilers for rusty lake paradise
ok so a thing that came to mind for me was that the ||goat eyes are weird, like, they have a weird pupil, along with elizabeth having the second symbol on at least one of her eyes||
along with that, nicholas ||has a fucking plague doctor’s outfit on during boils, and margaret also seems a little knowledgeable||, along with the fact that we see the eilanders ||surgically replace a body part (gerard’s heart) with something foreign||

[floral mauve]

But what is your conclusion out of those

[errant estuary]

did she get her ||eyes swapped|| at claire’s?

[floral mauve]

Wha

[azure bay]

I'm not sure it's Nicolas

[floral mauve]

Now I am confused

[azure bay]

Why?

Why only him?

Why isn't he voiced? He always has something mysterious to say

[floral mauve]

I mean that is indeed an amongus moment

Plague doctor imposter

[errant estuary]

what non eilander would want to go to paradise?

[floral mauve]

Caroline be like

[azure bay]

because they need a specialist against a deadly disease?

[errant estuary]

plus i think that the concept art implies that he has a plague doctor costume

[azure bay]

you mean a beta screenshot?

[errant estuary]

yeah

[azure bay]

well it could be just an asset reuse like Deer-Rabbit-Harvey-William-James-Samuel. And if not, it could be scrapped

[errant estuary]

fair

honestly, that was kind of just my assumption

[jagged snow]

hi so hear me out, when you complete the cube scape collection with all the archivements, you get symbols, same ones we use to get the games done, in all the series. What if you need them in the Underground Blossom???? would that sound actually possible?

[azure bay]

most likely

UB is teased in CEC

[jagged snow]

CEC?

[azure bay]

collection

[jagged snow]

well, in the same games, we can see stuff we did saw on the ub demo

like the little laura with the camera

[azure bay]

exactly

[jagged snow]

and other stuff

maybe we already saw some stuff there's in ub

maybe the symbols can get more archivements in the game when it's released

[azure bay]

Or maybe some lore

[jagged snow]

first what do we know from the lore?

[azure bay]

UB-related?

[jagged snow]

in general: a girl who reached a higher state, who had trouble with prozac and mystery arround her 24/7

what we solve is the 24/7 stuff

and we get to know her life

basicly the ub game is for knowing her more, so maybe with the archivements can we get extra knowlege?

[azure bay]

another thing I can say for sure, UB recontextualizes a 2015 story with a newer lore

and the secret may or may not go very deep with it

[jagged snow]

i'll say it like this, there's a tree growing up, for now there are 3 important roots, dale, laura, and the new lore that is going to be discovered

[analog ferry]

Most likely since the very first game Seasons, has an achievement called young Laura.

The last game, Cave, is directly connected to the secret in Underground Blossom demo

[jagged snow]

yeah, that brings me to other stuff, what abought when you finish the collection with all the archivements, those will be a secret on ub?

[analog ferry]

Maybe at some point we will have to place a certain sign on an object of that specific game by identifying it and then at last they will show us some kind of a secret or alternate level altogether??

[jagged snow]

can be, since if we remember the demo of ub, the neckle? maybe do something similar?

[analog ferry]

Yup

[analog ferry]

Kinda had this thought and I was wondering if the map that was engraved on the globe of Paradox with places like Dark Town, Laura's Place, Harvey Island, etc would appear in Underground Blossom?

[jagged snow]

..........ACTUALLY

UB IS HER LIFE

[analog ferry]

I mean they're part of Rusty Lake. Laura and her family live in Rusty Lake and Underground Blossom will follow the life of Laura ?

[jagged snow]

SO YEAH

but

in what game she dies-?

[analog ferry]

....

Seasons 👀

[jagged snow]

wellimean-

[analog ferry]

Or was it the lake ?

[jagged snow]

....

fuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnyyyyyyyy

[analog ferry]

Or the Case 23 ?

[analog ferry]

👀

[jagged snow]

hey

it says funny

[analog ferry]

I know 👀

[jagged snow]

just missed an u

but anyways

we never saw when she died actually-

[analog ferry]

Well that being said do we play as Harvey in Underground Blossom ?

[analog ferry]

Right 💀

Completely correct 🫡

[jagged snow]

i mean

we know prozac did it, [she killed herself]

but where

why

how

we don't know

maybe in ub?

[analog ferry]

But we do know that there's a confusion in their world regarding whether her death was suicide or murder

[jagged snow]

idk

[analog ferry]

Wait a sec is it confirmed that prozac killed her ??

[jagged snow]

in my pov prozac did it, since if you search prozac on google it fits perfectly on the theory she did suicide

[jagged snow]

google prozac

it fits

[analog ferry]

Imo I think it can be prozac but it also can be the case that the corrupted soul got to her ?

[jagged snow]

think this

the corrupter shadow is her in prozac

what abought it now

'cause

we see the shadow killing her

but in the cave we see a memory

where she cuts HERSELF

THE SHADOW ISN'T DOING NOTHIN'

[covert wyvern]

Or the memory in the lake is corrupted/altered:)

[jagged snow]

im open to it

i really wanna find the full story

[analog ferry]

Wait a sec Bob aka Robert Hill was also consuming the pill prozac on a daily basis during his stay in White Door

[jagged snow]

YAS

wait

funny

[analog ferry]

Then in the 5th day, Bob's corrupted soul emerges from the pill

[covert wyvern]

That's actually a fun thing to ponder

[jagged snow]

well

[analog ferry]

Maybe the pill has something to do with driving ppl into insanity /corrupted souls 👀

[jagged snow]

that's my point actually getting me confused

[jagged snow]

again

search on google prozac

please

im begginnnnn

🎶 begginnnn youuuuuuuu

ok i'll stop-

[covert wyvern]

@jagged snow that'll be enough spam, please.

[jagged snow]

but seriously

[covert wyvern]

Next time the warning will be accompanied by a one hour mute.

[analog ferry]

Fluoxetine, sold under the brand name Prozac, among others, is an antidepressant of the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor class. It is used for the treatment of major depressive disorder, obsessive–compulsive disorder, bulimia nervosa, panic disorder, and premenstrual dysphoric disorder.

[jagged snow]

but i write like that!

[covert wyvern]

That excuse won't fly. Neither will arguing with a mod

[jagged snow]

i'll go then bye bye gn

[analog ferry]

I guess the corrupted soul makes them start questioning things and finally can lead to them killing themselves to free themselves.

And then the Anthromorphs/asuras like Mr.Owl, Harvey and Mr.Crow collect ppl to extract their memories and then them into cubes.

[carmine field]

The places possibly do not exist, as the map itself on Paradox's globe does not match reality

[analog ferry]

Mostly white.

They don't want to trigger a memory of their corrupted souls and cause "corruption of the soul"

[analog ferry]

Wait a second but which reality are you talking about ?

Sorry I'm just very confused and dumb 😓

[carmine field]

I'm talking about the real map of Rusty Lake

A map that appears in both The Cave and Case 23

[analog ferry]

Where was the real map ?!?!

Wait a second the one in the submarine ?

[carmine field]

yep

[analog ferry]

True tho I missed that 😅

[carmine field]

The globe map in Paradox simply doesn't make sense, it may just serve as a puzzle

[analog ferry]

Yeah like an accumulation of Dale's thought

[carmine field]

I disagree

Prozac is an antidepressant

[analog ferry]

True

Maybe even the pills can't stop them ?

[carmine field]

yeah

Corruption seems to be something more

Considering it's literally a realm of Samsara in RL

But I still have to think about it more

[azure bay]

@analog ferry CS is a dark side or a person but I don't think it wants the "host" to die. Because most of corrupted souls want to live again. William, the guests, Laura, even Bob seemed so in TWD ending.

Also I don't get why CS should be involved in cube production. Why can't asuras just steal corpses as long as they have memories?

[azure bay]

But we did. In The Cave. The very palce and the very moment of her death

At her place we we play at in Seasons

Suicide by cutring her own throat

Nothing to overthing about

But we can overthink the reasons

We can tie in Dale from Paradox

Or Albert

Or Owl's schemes

[azure bay]

Yeah, this is likely some kind of symbolism

Of her depression/her dark side

Or maybe some other CS harassing her

Despite it being herself who welded the knife

[azure bay]

I think they do exist. Most of them do so why not the rest? They just may be named differently. Just like they are placed in a specific order to reflect the characters' biographies

That's what the globe is about

To reflect their life paths

[analog ferry]

Woah that's a nice way to think of those places !

[carmine field]

I mean... "Sea of ​​Enlightenment", "Laura's Land", "Birthday Island"

[azure bay]

Yeah, these don't exist

[analog ferry]

I got a bit carried away there 😅

But I'm totally open to any interpretation

[azure bay]

They just give story context to the real places like "dark town" or RL Theatre. After all their order does fit the chronology

[carmine field]

I can't deny

Taking advantage of the opportunity, I have an idea about timepieces that I don't know if you guys have discussed before

Maybe you already have, but whatever

The realms represented in the timepieces—Deva, Asura, and Manusya—correspond to the higher realms of Samsara, considered as "good and fortunate" (even though there are some interpretations that place Asura as one of the lower realms)

It is important to note that even according to Buddhism there is a hierarchy between these three

Deva is at the top of the wheel.
Asura is the second, envying Deva's position.
Manusya is the third, being the most balanced among all the realms.

Even though this may not make much of a difference in practice, I'll remember this every time I discuss timepieces

[azure bay]

But what does humans being the most balanced really mean for us theorists trying to describe and predict?

[carmine field]

I am just describing the Buddhist view. It doesn't appear that the Asura of Rusty Lake war with the Deva, either.

What I just wanted to say is that there really is a hierarchy in real Samsara, corresponding to the order of the timepieces:
Gold - Deva
Silver - Asura
Bronze - Manusya

And perhaps this is evidence that, in fact, Deva is superior to Asura who is superior to Manusya in some aspect (since Karma is not yet proven in RL).

It's not something new, just a confirmation

[azure bay]

I agree here

Also the timepieces' order could thematically (not canonically) reflect the evolution of rulers of the lake

[carmine field]

Perhaps. But I think that, since they do good things generally, maybe there could be a connection to the fact that their realms are those considered "good" too.

[azure bay]

That's for sure

But the order is ascending

[carmine field]

I'm also curious about the wheel of Samsara in Caroline's book

Asura being in Naraka's place

As I said before, some interpretations consider Asura as one of the lower realms

But I still need to investigate further

[carmine field]

Definitely

[azure bay]

This one is really weird

Before the devs said that we haven't seen devas yet the theory of Owl being one could hold truth

Some say that the order is due to enscriptions in the book

To place the realls near "enlightenment" and "the chosen one"

I also thought it could be about some shifts in samsara

Like owl was or will be naraka

And the lake will be connected to asuras

Or was

[carmine field]

It's a good theory, although I think the writings were a bit unnecessary. There's a page exclusively dedicated to calling the owl "The Chosen One"

[carmine field]

We can also remember that the Eilander praised the Lake

[azure bay]

Sometimes you need to repeat the message to convey it

[carmine field]

Yeah, I think it makes sense

I still don't buy this as the only reason they swapped Asura and Naraka places

Opposite sides on the wheel are practically inverse

An example is Deva and Naraka

A simple way to compare Deva and Naraka is:
While Deva is the ignorance of suffering, Naraka is constant suffering

[azure bay]

I have problems with these character specific biases.

I can understand when these personal mistakes are corrected in following games. Like the elixir granting "enlightenment", not "immortality".

But this one is repeated in Paradox by a person who understands things better than his ancestors.

Speaking of whitch, Caroline seemed even more advanced at least in some aspects. I have doubts she'd be leaving these misconceptions in her book

[carmine field]

I think it's really difficult for it to be a misconception either

But we don't know her vision of the Lake, how she obtained this knowledge or whether Asura already existed

We don't know why the forest is hell

Could it be that it was different in the past

[azure bay]

I think they had to.
For 1, it was hardly the 1st day of the lake and hardly the 1st firstborn to be sacrificed for enlightenment.

For 2, Pheasant and Rabbit have to stay in showbiz somehow. And for that they need sufficient audience. I don't think it appeared at once in 19th century

[carmine field]

True, I almost forgot

If the Asura existed in the past, then there is a possibility that they were the lowest point of Samsara originally, which I don't think makes that much sense

Perhaps the wheel presented in Caroline's book ignores the hierarchy and focuses on some specific aspect

[azure bay]

For me, it was atrocious. The wheels should've been consistent for me

[carmine field]

Still, I'm hoping that maybe I can find something interesting in my search

Or maybe not

But I'll look, anyway

The devs know Samsara at least since Samsara Room, although they have modified it. I don't think it's impossible that it's a reference to something

[azure bay]

If it is, the message could've been clearer. For now I choose to wait without thinking too much about it

[carmine field]

If I don't find anything, all I can do is leave this question open

btw, here’s a video suggestion for you to make

Samsara in Rusty Lake

I think it's a very useful topic, especially for people who want to delve deeper into the universe

[azure bay]

I think I'll talk about it when I get to CE Theatre

[carmine field]

Fair

[azure bay]

Or Samsara Room?

[carmine field]

Samsara Room has a different idea of ​​Samsara, I would say

I think of it as a lesser Samsara or something like that

[covert wyvern]

Feels like you could make a video comparing the two, too lol

[carmine field]

It is also a possibility, although there is not much relationship between each stage individually

[azure bay]

I think SR is more symbolic than literal due to its origins. But still SR is about 1 specific soul being reborn

[carmine field]

I agree

I interpret it as if each stage in Samsara Room is William changing his perspective on life, getting closer and closer to breaking out of the white cube

[azure bay]

Could also be about choosing the rebirth form

Or working for it

Some try to tie in the SR wheel

As if it reflects the normal samsara stages

[carmine field]

Yes, but taking into account that all the items from the previous stages are necessary to catch the baby, perhaps reflecting on other perspectives was really necessary

[azure bay]

Ah also

[azure bay]

Could be past lives substance reflection

I mean balancing

[carmine field]

It is a possibility, given the presence of the heart

[azure bay]

And literal balancing as the devs love

[carmine field]

Yes, although I am inclined that the main substance was the ten sacrifices

[azure bay]

I don't think it makes sense

These are not his substances

[carmine field]

If we consider that the members represent William's legacy, yes.

In addition to the fact that it is written "Balance the substances of your past lives" with a drawing of the sacrifices on the scales

[azure bay]

I know what was the drawing. Still, that's not the leap I'm making. It's meant to be about the past, not legacy

Plus

We have an example of Dale

The book in The Cave is speaking about him

He's the one being guided by the cubes

He's finding enlightenment

And I think it's also about Laura in Seasons

Because she's guided by the cubes too

She makes elixir

She finds enlightenment by SR definition

Her and Dale changing their cubes has to be that past life substance balancing

The thing in Roots could be just stating the fact

"William is balancing substances"

But SR could be the one actually showing it

[carmine field]

I still disagree. I find it difficult that the devs thought of Samsara Room at the time they made Rusty Lake Roots

If they had thought earlier, they would have referenced William's supposed previous forms

I think it's much more likely that they were referring to the sacrifices themselves, which are the focus of the game

[azure bay]

They could. I've heard they planned making it canon for quite a while. William is a big SR reference in itself.

Recently they said the same about Albert and TPW/UB

[azure bay]

They don't reveal past forms unless they are important right now

[azure bay]

And this makes no sense nor fits other cases

Sometimes I understand Ellesian who thinks that these are just buzz words

[carmine field]

I better clarify my interpretation of what I meant by William's legacy

We know that William and Aldous must have planned the resurrection. The "seed of sacrifice" was a key to this and is intrinsically linked to William.

The seed generated the tree, which is linked to the entire family, even if in a symbolic way. That's William's legacy.

So I don't think it's unlikely that the brothers turned William's legacy into substance on purpose. And there is also no reference to William's past lives that we can be sure was part of their plan.

We can also assume that only the sacrifices could bring William back to life.

Otherwise, the resurrection plan was unnecessary and William would be better off searching for his substance of past lives rather than spending decades tracking his descendants.

William wasn't alone. He had his brother by his side.

Perhaps together it would be possible to find the substances while minimizing damage, unless they wanted to intentionally sacrifice a family.

I assume that they carried out the resurrection plan because, besides being easier, the substance of past lives should be the sacrifices

I know you didn't say this, but I disagree with the idea that the sacrifices were necessary just for him to become human again, as I see "balance the substance of your past lives" as an allusion to the balance of Karma. Remember: Manusya is the realm of those who have balanced Karma, so anyone who balanced it would become human (except Dale, who had his journey)

[floral mauve]

one thing you might not consider is that balancing the substances were not becoming human but instead, getting out of CS state I guess?

also I am not sure whether the sacrifices count as the substances of William's past life

(except idk, dna?)

[floral mauve]

more like his clothes are the substances of his past life

he is always naked for some sussy reason

[azure bay]

I agree with certain statements but in general I think you are overthinking. Filling in gaps without enough justification. Possibly rationalizing them to make them fit a single obscure phrase you take literally.

For Dale past life substance is mostly clear, basically anything he touches in BDay. Same for Laura. For Rabbit it's a pistol from the hotel he died at.

And organs of people who exist as William's lifestock don't look like any of these.

[vivid bridge]

I really dislike the substance stuff. It's never properly explained and even the stuff we see feels like a stretch

Like none of the objects in Theatre even resemble anything to do with Elizbeth

Mr. Rabbits gun is a stretch too

[floral mauve]

agree

[vivid bridge]

and all the other character only vaguely have substances, if anything

its all such a stretch

[floral mauve]

we have to deduct the purpose of the substances

they never wrote anything straightforward on the purpose of them

[floral mauve]

they probably wanted to do that intentionally for further plot development but ends up in ehm, tpw stuff

[vivid bridge]

didn't they say in the chinese Q&A that Laura balances her substances in Seasons? Like thats such a retcon and even then its not even a good retcon

[floral mauve]

its not chinese q&a I believe, it was the online 2021 one

[azure bay]

No, they were speaking of elixir

[vivid bridge]

ah

ah okay

still not good

the elixir is a whole other issue

but like

[floral mauve]

everything you touches (becomes elixir)

[azure bay]

And balancing... If Dale does it in Bday, Laura definitely does it in Seasons

[vivid bridge]

Does... does Dale do it in Bday?

[azure bay]

According to The Cave book

[floral mauve]

I wont like the idea of gift device as balancing

[floral mauve]

is it

[vivid bridge]

the cave book talks about the general gist of the lake, not Bday specifically

[azure bay]

It's not general it's about Dale's journey that's "about to start"

E.g. birthday

And theatre

[vivid bridge]

yeah but those games aren't about him balancing the substances. Bday is about him getting over his trauma or something

unless that is balancing your substances

but at that point that phrase is meaningless

[azure bay]

I think that's the balancing in its purest

Take physical objects and use them to change the cubes

And change your attitude to their events

[vivid bridge]

If they said like "you need to balance your karma and your trauma is is making your karma go out of balance" then sure, that makes sense

but its all soooo vague

especially cause the first few times we heard about the substances, they were talking about actual objects, not just some vague "get therapy"

[azure bay]

Puzzles tend to be symbolic

That's the biggest problem imo

I don't get how placing feti, hearts and other organs on scales change anything

[vivid bridge]

but sometimes they aren't. Rabbit was trying to get a physical object

[azure bay]

My prediction, he wanted to use it like Laura or Dale

Either make a pistol juice

Or kill Harvey

Something along those lines

Could following these 5 characters be "the gand finale" for Dale?

[vivid bridge]

5 characters?

[azure bay]

The guests

[vivid bridge]

ah

I mean, he's going to the hotel to get enlightened in order to stop the guests' souls

[azure bay]

Yes

There are just assumptions that he'll deal with them by liberation

6 Dale's adventures could be that "something big" the devs promised

5 for the guests, and 1 for himself

[vivid bridge]

Maybe the final game will be like a sequel to Hotel, where Dale arrives at the hotel, goes through each room, defeats each soul and then reaches Owl's room, where he ascends

[azure bay]

Something along those lines

[vivid bridge]

I've played this franchise long enough to not expect a huge cinematic ending to all of this

[azure bay]

You're probably right

What's your définition of cinematic?

[vivid bridge]

I don't mean it in a "I want cutscenes" way, I mean it in like a "things actually happen" way. You'd expect things to really get dire, maybe the lake freaks out, characters have facial expressions other than :I, there's a sense of urgency

I don't like that RL characters barely react to the stuff going on. They just kinda accept it immediately and move on

which I feel like could make a finale feel anticlimactic

[azure bay]

I think that's mostly the format limitation