🤔｜theories

[visual coral]

He's sewed mouth could be the reason why he sounds like that

[azure bay]

That mostly depends on his age

His voice sounds younger when he is younger and when he's in asura form

His voice sounds older when he's an old man

His voice sounds weird when his mouth is sewed

[carmine field]

Just remembering

[azure bay]

Honestly, I hate this explanation

It somewhat makes sense but the mouth being sewed is way better

[terse niche]

To this day we don't have an explanation for his mouth being sewn up.

I believe there must be something about him talking strange with his mouth sewn up

I don't think he talks like that anymore in the series

That was basically his voice in the first few games

Until Bob came on the scene at Roots

Until today Mr. Crow talking on Roots makes me like this

[frosty wolf]

when did Bob show up in Roots?

[acoustic fern]

When

[terse niche]

Oh pardon! I refer to Bob Rafferty

[frosty wolf]

Ah

[acoustic fern]

Okey

[terse niche]

I refer to Mr. Crow telling William to make the elixir in the Roots secret

The voice is so good

[acoustic fern]

Yes

[azure bay]

He does when we call the mill

Paradox and UB demo

[terse niche]

[steel imp]

You pick up the phone, but you don't talk to Dale. No way of proving that. Besides, remember that CS don't have sewed mouths, and from an anatomy standpoint, a sewed mouth doesn't reverse your pitch

The fact that you touch to go on is a gameplay element to listen the conversation to your own pace. It doesn't actually mean that you are a part of the conversation. An argument like that would imply that you are in control of what Dale says, too.

[steel imp]

Mr. Crow just happened to have TikTok

[visual coral]

You do talk to Dale as seen in Case 23. It's the same exact conversation shown from both sides. And at least in Case 23 we are in control of what Dale says.
Crow also is the one that fed Laura's memories to the Lake and later he says that to her CS. And if the devs themselves apparently said that Crow can do multiple voices there's nothing to discuss here

[ivory girder]

this is just overanalyzing atp like the games were made ages ago so this might be just a gameplay thing nothing less nothing more imo

[steel imp]

You don't know it. As much as I'm concerned, I could go to the extent that Dale didn't actually speak in Case 23. I don't just because of the circumstances: Dale actually works up on the word fate. However, Mr. Crow doesn't do nothing to trigger the telphone, nor to activate other mechanisms after the telephone. He is extraneous to all the telphone elements.

I know that Mr. Crow has different voices, but this fact doesn't exclude my thesis. Mr. Crow might have 4 voices (alchemy, cave, rl games, paradox). But the CS voice doesn't appartain to him

The voice you hear at the end of Mill, btw, is Laura's voice.

[steel imp]

Proof? You could argue that the voice in Seasons are ghosts of what Crow says to Laura at the end, but Crow never said "Find me in the past", so there's no way for Laura to coyp and paste that voice into the cube. No, those are authentic Laura voicelines, or to be more precise, CS voicelines

This topic is however pointless, so I'm not going to discuss it further

[visual coral]

I'd suggest you replay Case 23 and the Mill, but yeah this conversation in pointless

[azure bay]

Man, Crow speaks to Dale and Laura in preta voice. There's nobody else to speak. Spare mental gymnastics for something more ambiguous

Even the devs didn't deny it when adressed directly

They said he's a voice master

I still prefer the sewed mouth theory and hope they just forgot it

[steel imp]

I'm still concerned about the "Why" part

[steel imp]

(this reply wasn't serious ofc, so why did he sewed his mouth and choose to speak with another voice, or to be more specific, the one of CS's?)

[azure bay]

I don't think there's any in-lore explanation

The sewed mouth could be just weird imagery

While preta voice could be another weird element reused from Seasons and somewhat OG samsara room

Another reason for usage of that kind of voice would likely be a lack of voice actors at the time

[frosty wolf]

hello can someone just simply tell me who was exactly speaking at the end of the Mill? Aldous or Laura? MrCrowIsBald said it was Laura's CS voice but i've also heard before that people think it was Aldous speaking..

[visual coral]

It's was Crow

[carmine field]

It was certainly Mr. Crow, as he told the corrupted soul to leave and that her memories belong to the Lake

[cold moss]

Are there any theories about how the Original Samsara room protagonist fits into the mythos? (well he does not really but its fun) William would not really make sense, the protag's way of speaking is very modern.

[fossil oasis]

He just so happened to be a modern-day man who stumbled across the lake and accidentally wandered into the cycle of life & death.

Also, the fat guy happened to be either a friend or relative of his.

[cold moss]

He seemed pretty carefree, maybe he only has white cubes

Thoguh you can see that the figure in the mirror was not meant to be a corrupted soul, just a hazy reflection (possibly for the player to self-insert into)

[azure bay]

It's simple, the OG SR doesn't fit into. Yes, it's a room escape, It's inspired by the same things and even has some assets and imagery in common with early games but they deal with enlightenment very differently. Thus the devs made the canon remake.

[cold moss]

see parenthesis

[azure bay]

ok, fair enough

whatever it is, it's not about William

the guy knows Bob Ross

and yeah, enlightenment is treated differently

[stable scarab]

Hey guys!
 
I have played most - if not all Rusty Lake games, but I'm not active in the community, so I'm sorry if my "theory" is common knowledge. I just want some feedback from someone who is more into on Rusty Lake lore if what I think is true or not.
 
I'm planning on getting a tattoo including these three symbols from Paradox, because when I played the game I found them very cool and really liked what they represent. I just don't want my tattoo represent something else than what I think it does.
 
So there are three cubes in Paradox
the iron cube, with the symbol of the past (S line)
the wooden cube, with the symbol of the present (triangle with the line passing through it)
the glass cube, with the symbol of the future (swirl line)

My question is not regarding the material of the cubes, but I want to explain my understanding of it:
 
The material of the cubes represent the time the cube itself represents:
Iron represents the past, because the past already happened so it's solid and can't be altered with your bare hands.
Wood represents the present because it's a softer material than iron, and it's easier to work with, just like how you can influence the events in the present.
The future is glass, because it's fragile, you can't be sure about it, its not set, and your image of the future can shatter very easily just like glass.
 
Now, my question is regarding the symbols. Do they also represent the time period? Because I think they do, but I talked about this tattoo idea to many people, but they looked a bit puzzled when I tried to explain it. My explaination might be a bit messy so bare with me.
 
The past is just a line, since the past is a linear series of events. There are no branches in it, because your past is just a series of events happening after each other.
The triangle is the present, because time (the line) passes through the present moment (the triangle)
The future is a swirl because it is unsure, and not set in stone.

oof sorry that it's so long if anyone reads it thank you i would really appreciate your feedback

[azure bay]

It's not exactly common knowledge but I've heard this one before

[azure bay]

I'm not sure about it because "the past is never dead", "all that you touch you change", "change the past" and entire The Past Within

[stable scarab]

yeah I wanted to add this exactly, like iron can be worked with if you have the right tools.

but if we think outside of rusty lake lore irl time is pretty lineral

[azure bay]

at least it's commonly believed to be so

[stable scarab]

yea

thank you so much for reading it

[azure bay]

it's my hobby

reading and reciting things

[stable scarab]

oh i just found that there are cube emojis, i should have used them in the text

[azure bay]

it's funny

the present symbol in the book doesn't correspond the one on the cube

[stable scarab]

yeah

i noticed it aswell

i think the one on the cube works better

[azure bay]

I have problems with interpreting these symbols

[stable scarab]

how?

[azure bay]

I struggle to find any reliable pattern

the S was seemingly connected to corrupted souls occasionally

the triangle with a horizontal line is alchemical symbol for air

[stable scarab]

ohh i thought you meant the connection of the symbol to the time period

[stable scarab]

yea! i found that aswell

[azure bay]

the one with a vertical line going far down looks to me like a mirrored 4 from Seasons

[stable scarab]

they indeed seem a bit random

[stable scarab]

but in this instance i think they work very well

[azure bay]

I'm pretty skeptical about this type theorizing. It's pure mental gymnastics based on next to no in-game evidence. It's cool to see patterns like that but no guarantee they are intentional

[stable scarab]

thank you for saying this!
i would get it done because of more of a personal reason than lore reasons. but yeah, it's probably not a significant or essential part of the lore, since its not even consistent

but i'm surprised that you say it's not intentional, or at least not guaranteed to be. can you elaborate on that?

[azure bay]

our brains seek and find patterns

they may be deliberatly left by the devs

they may be just a coincidence

a rationalization

[stable scarab]

yeah that is true

this can be applied to theorisation as a whole

[azure bay]

yes except I prefer patterns that are more rooted in games

the more games at once the better

symbols randomly used in general are not Owl's monologues

there's different value to different pieces of evidence

[stable scarab]

yeah I agree, game-based theories can be backed up more easily with connection to other games
my question was less lore based

and that is exactly why i asked it because when I played Paradox back in 2019ish it made so much sense to me and it was weird how I didnt find anything about these symbols and that is why i asked

[carmine field]

I just read your theory on Reddit. I really enjoyed it

[carmine field]

probably just a mistake

[atomic shale]

I wonder.. is there anything known about the World of Hell (Naraka), one of the Six Paths, from games? Except the confirmation that it does exist from the “Theatre”?

[azure bay]

it's widely believed to be the forest at the lake bottom

[atomic shale]

Seems likely, since hell’s symbol in that diagram does look like forest.

[azure bay]

you mean the pictogram like the fish and the crow?

[atomic shale]

So, I suppose for corrupted souls there is two paths: they will be either reborn as something more “normal”, or if they had a bad karma, they become even more corrupted and get stuck in the forest at the bottom of the lake 🤔

[azure bay]

frankly speaking, I don't observe karma

only different ways to change the state

like rituals

memory extraction

[atomic shale]

I mean this. And photos connected to that puzzle.

[azure bay]

yeah, it's clearly a forest

and we don't have many of them

[atomic shale]

Have to agree.

Anyway, thanks for clarification ^^

[terse niche]

More than the forest, it's the trees. They are the real being of the cycle.

[carmine field]

not sure

the only times we see beings turning into trees weren't sinister like the red forest

[spice parrot]

Story behind cube escape?

[azure bay]

Laura Vanderboom visits Rusty Lake and then mysteriously dies. Dale Vandermeer investigates and discovers her connection to RL. Laura's body is stolen by RL rulers, her memory cubes are extracted, she becomes a corrupted soul and eventually gets captured by them. Dale becomes a part of their schemes too, they orchestrate tests and trials for him.

Eventually he's taken to Rusty Lake where he's prepared as a new ruler of the lake.

10 years later corrupted Laura saves herself inside her cubes and lives hapilly ever after

[spice parrot]

Story behind roots? ( if you don’t mind me asking)

[azure bay]

did you play the secret level?

[spice parrot]

I haven’t played roots yet

I’ve only played some cube escape and samsara room

[azure bay]

Roots are worth playing

[frosty wolf]

i recommend playing the entire series yourself first

[spice parrot]

Yes, I’ll get the game soon

Ok sure!

[steel imp]

Oops, I'm late

[night oasis]

Uh hi
There's a thing that confused me for a while
As i can remember Dale left the theater with the elevator right? So... have did he ended up in his office again? Have he passed his trials already?
Bc in one of the achievements of twd he asked of Bob to come to his office when they were in theater
(Sorry for bad Eng tho)

[azure bay]

• The original event of theatre took place in 1971. TWD is the game that likely faithfully depicts some of it. Dale promises to find Laura (nothing about Bob coming anywhere).

• Case 23 ch2 takes place in 1972, more than 6 months after theatre (the date is missing due to an oversight). Dale probably has nothing to do with Bob being arrested.

• Cube Escape Theatre takes place in 1972 too, it's about Dale returning to his memories of 1971 theatre. Mr. Owl altered them to some unknown extent to teach Dale some lessons about Samsara while using Bob as an example.

[night oasis]

Hmmm makes sense
Tnx!

[azure bay]

you're welcome

[fossil oasis]

Judging from part of the game description ("...and uncover one of Laura’s timelines, while simultaneously helping her make sense of her life and escape the corruption of her mind!"), I think Underground Blossom's gonna take place sometime during the Winter season of Cube Escape: Seasons, seeing as how ||a corrupted Laura attempts (and succeeded) to uncorrupt herself||.

[azure bay]

But before that we're getting some unseen episodes from her life

[fossil oasis]

Yeah, like the school group and maybe how Laura met Bob?

I'm calling the the "escape corruption" part is gonna be the final station.

[azure bay]

we know how they met from TWD

and we know how they broke up

but we have no idea what it was like in the middle

[fossil oasis]

Hmm, makes sense that it'll be in the middle of them dating rather than the very beginning.

[azure bay]

could be either, honestly

but the middle part would be the most welcome

unless there' some additional context to the parts we know

[vivid bridge]

Technically we've already seen her curing her corruption, right?

so its gonna be interesting to see what UB is gonna do

[visual coral]

I really hope that UB will show us what "balancing the substance of your past life" looked like for Laura

[carmine field]

I think the "balancing" might be related to the four ingredients used in Winter

But I don't know what the substance of her past life would be. Maybe those memories?

[visual coral]

I would say that the four ingredients is her making the elixir. And if we follow the RLMH&F formula, balancing the substance is a separate thing. So I wander what substance did she balance.

But, if the four ingredients are the substance, we have to see that in the UB

[azure bay]

Probably Harvey, the cactus, the mold and the candle

[visual coral]

you mean the flower

[azure bay]

The flower seemingly has next to nothing to do with Laura's past life

And she doesn't touch it

But she "balances" Harvey

[visual coral]

other three seemingly also have nothing to do with her

[visual coral]

wdym?

[azure bay]

If Laura and Dale balance the substance of their past life, they do that by changing the past.

Since Rabbit's substance is a pistol, therefore the substance of Dale and Laura are expected to be objects too

So I see the balancing process as changing physical objects

[visual coral]

Interesting. So by turning the objects into elixir she's balancing her substance? Also, Laura's CS did touch the flower

[azure bay]

I misunderstood what flower u were talking about

she didn't really touch the blossom flower

brought by Harvey

but the spring one doesn't really seem important

it disappears anyway

maybe it's rather the flower pot she touches?

[azure bay]

honestly, it seems counter intuitive

turning objects into elixir

could be different stages that happened to use the same items

could be gameplay

because I would never expect prozac inside a candle

considering how wide-spread it is

it's just unnecessary

however

as I think about it, Caroline's elixir elements technically qualify as past life substance

except I don't see her balancing anything

[visual coral]

Laura's CS takes the flower from Harvey, so she did in fact touch it even if was just a second. But that's not the point. If the elixir is made of the substance of the past life and "balancing" is blending them in the mixer then it makes sense.

About Caroline I was thinking the same thing. Since we're cleared up that both Dale and Laura follow the RLMH&F formula and the same thing is also written in the alchemist bothers book in Paradox, I figured that this formula just the path one takes to achieve enlightenment in RL universe. And since elixir can take many forms, then this must be something that unites them all

also I have to go, so sorry if I don't answer for a few hours

[azure bay]

it doesn't fit Dale's case

and by touching I mean changing

she didn't change the blossom

she changed Harvey and it resulted into blossom

if Dale and Laura do balance anything it has to be by changing things

about uniting things

it becomes very hard to find the common rule

for many concepts

like corruption

golden cubes

elixir in general

[visual coral]

What even does fit Dale's case? If substance is an object then what's his substance? The whole memory of Birthday?
If Dale and Laura both following the RKMH&F formula, which is originally from Caroline, she had to do it first.

Now that I think about it, Jacob elixir is made from Caroline's memories, Dale's from Laura's, William made the elixir for Aldous.

the sacrifice makes the elixir

[azure bay]

it's not originally from Caroline

[visual coral]

that's funny

[azure bay]

even in paradox it's listed as MH&F

and written under the alchemists' names

[visual coral]

Caroline has "balance the substance" in her book

[azure bay]

what's the illustration?

[visual coral]

this

[azure bay]

ok but still, the context is unclear

it's somehow connected to hungry ghosts

but how exactly?

[visual coral]

Laura was a CS , Dale was half CS

[azure bay]

we don't really know what Dale is as of yet

I mean

how he's semi-corrupted

[visual coral]

he did become corrupted in Paradox

somehow

[azure bay]

I think that was the machine but still

it's unclear

[visual coral]

but if we think that BD is him balancing his substance then his corrupted state checks out

[azure bay]

Bday was never about his corruption

[visual coral]

in Theater and then in BD is was very clear that balancing is the way for CS to escape their state

I'm talking about the context of the line in Caroline's book

[azure bay]

and yet it could be just more global. Not only corruption but any form of enlightenment

because again, Dale in Bday doesn't fit

[visual coral]

but balancing the substance always happens in corrupted state

[azure bay]

in Bday - not quite

[visual coral]

like 50%

close enough

[azure bay]

nah, until we know what's the deal with Dale's semi-corruption, these 50% are projected on the theory as a whole.

And do you know what 50% is? It's "maybe yes, maybe no"

that is

"maybe you need to be corrupted to balance substance, maybe not"

[visual coral]

Well, if we think about it from samsara point of view, then you cannot be two at the same time. So Dale is not semi-corrupted, he's constantly changing his state

[azure bay]

or it could be some kind of quantum superposition

like Schrodinger's Dale

or Schrodinger's corruption

[visual coral]

yeah

just like u

But still, the pattern of MH&F formula is something we shouldn't ignore

[azure bay]

we don't but it says nothing about corruption

[visual coral]

the thing about corruption what pretty obvious to me, cause of Theater and BD. But the pattern that I'm talking about is "the formula" is the path to enlightenment

[azure bay]

Dale breaks the pattern

we don't know how much

but he clearly does

that's the thing we'd better not ignore

[visual coral]

how is Dale breaking the pattern? He's the one the book in the Cave about

[azure bay]

he breaks your corruption pattern

[visual coral]

it doesn't break "the formula" pattern

[azure bay]

never said he did

[visual coral]

but we agree that Dale is at least semi-corrupted, right?

[azure bay]

somehow

we can't say how it works and what it means

[visual coral]

we say what we see

we see his corruption

[azure bay]

and it may have nothing to do with substance balancing

because he's not fully corrupted

he's a weird case

a wild card

50-50

[visual coral]

but it may have. we have at least some evidence

[azure bay]

still

Dale breaks the pattern

he's not a corrupted soul in a traditional sense

plus he acts more like a human

so this evidence is not enough

if we had "go corrupt yourself" in the mh&f list, that would be enough

but with Dale in mind it could really be just a step towards any type of enlightenment

or at least the difficult types of it

like fighting corruption or becoming a deva

[terse niche]

3 characters we can see alternate between being corrupted and human are Laura (for example in The Cave), Dale (for example in Birthday) and Bob (for example in The White Door). It's a real mystery why they are able to do this. Either they are corrupted souls that look like humans or they are humans that could temporarily go into a corrupted state due to some unknown factor (the clearest being extreme stress we see with Bob) or they are both human and corrupted soul at the same time.

All of them corruption is different. Dale happens without him noticing or changing his behavior. Laura is extremely aggressive initially, but she quickly takes control of it and seems to almost freely deal with her corrupted state. And Bob completely loses control, like he has another personality.

[acoustic fern]

I think in roots William was a corrupted soul in a Level

[terse niche]

William as far as I know is fully corrupted in Roots caused by the elixir.

[acoustic fern]

Yes

[terse niche]

He is reborn as a human with the ritual/elixir performed on Roots. Interesting that he is reborn as a new human and not himself.

[acoustic fern]

Okey

The elixir give inmortality to one and the other into a corrupted soul or only death?

[terse niche]

The version of the elixir that William creates seems to have a different effect on different people. One will die and another will reach enlightenment. Just Aldous, William and James? we see taking the elixir, but only Aldous became an asura. We don't know why. Maybe Aldous had something like greater knowledge or something else.

William curiously dies and we see his body there dead, but at the same time he corrupts, but his corrupted soul is separated from his body. It just happens to him. James just dies and even with the coin in his eyes, he doesn't corrupt.

[carmine field]

I don't think William was specifically corrupted because of the Elixir, as that's the only time that would have happened. Caroline may have been corrupted by her memories being extracted, while James simply wasn't corrupted.

Perhaps there is some nebulous factor that allowed William to return as a corrupted soul

In my opinion, William and Aldous planned this

[terse niche]

It's possible that something happened between william's death and his corruption that we don't see and in fact it wasn't the elixir, but it's still weird his body being separated from his corrupted soul.

Most likely. William is the one who does the dirty work at Roots

[carmine field]

I think it's normal for the soul to separate from the body, as we see with the guests or even Caroline.

I imagine it's a similar situation with the asura: even if Mr. Crow retained his old body, I think Mr. Owl and the guests were actually reborn as a separate being

[azure bay]

For now I see these 3 cases as completely different.

Laura is simply dead and corrupted. Us seeing her for a second as a human is due to the machine. Arguably any corrupted soul would temporarily assume its previous form under similar conditions.

Bob went corrupted in Theatre for the same reason as Laura - memory extraction (if it was even real). And 2 other times due to psycological trauma like van Gogh. The weird thing here is him going back to human form. We can't say he's semi-corrupted because we have no idea how he went back in the 1st place. I'd expect something costly.

So only Dale can be considered semi-corrupted and even here we don't know how it works and what it means. It could be him taking some of Laura's corruption, it could be some sort of quantum superposition, it could be something we can't imagine yet.

[azure bay]

William's elixir is just Caroline's elixir without cubes containing the elements. The book in Paradox movie has the alchemist borthers' initials over Caroline's formula.

And it follows the same rules: one dies, one gets the highest level of enlightenment possible for their state of mind.

Caroline died, Jakob became an asura.
William died, Aldous became an asura.
James died, the dog got a prolonged life because it had no consciousness.
Laura died, Dale will become a deva because Owl gives him a higher state of consciousness.

[azure bay]

Objectively, he could. And probably should have.

It was the only case when 2 humans were competing for enlightenment. James might not go corrupted probabaly because the dog wasn't fully enlightened.

Also they had to know about someone's corruption. The whole family tree ritual was built around it pretty much in advance. Plus, the altar was foreshadowing that.

[azure bay]

Or Aldous was busy preparing the family tree ritual while William was making the elixir

[steel imp]

I'm convinced that states can co-exist, like Harvey. I'm not going to elaborate further.

[azure bay]

It's just counter intuitive

if you are human, you are human

if you are CS, you are CS

if you are asura, you are asura

if you are animal, you are animal

leave Harvey be

if he's asura, he either has a good behind the scenes reason we need to see first

or the wheels are retconned

barbarically, I'd say, but if it's true, we can do nothing with that

[robust isle]

Wait, what exactly is a corrupted or a deva?

Started to play the Rusty lake titles recently

[azure bay]

corrupted souls are those black shadows

and devas are somewhat gods from indian mythology Rusty Lake is inspired by

[robust isle]

But what happens to the ppl that become corrupted?

[azure bay]

it depends

most of them are corrupted because or after they died

in that case it's a kind of ghost

those corrupted while being alive are likely corrupted due to psychological issues and may turn back when the cause is processed

[robust isle]

are corrupteds related in some way to the black cubes?

[azure bay]

ah yeah

corruption can be caused by black cube extraction no matter if the person is alive or not

[robust isle]

oh ok

Also

What's the difference between white and black cubes?

[azure bay]

white cubes contain bright memories, black are painful

[robust isle]

ok, thx a lot :D

[untold oar]

hey anybody can explain exactly how the samsara wheel applies to the games? like ive seen the circle of life and death thing, but i wanted to know where each character is at/what it would represent

[terse niche]

In the cycle of samsara there are several beings and in games, each being belongs to that cycle. In the game we see humans, trees, pretas (corrupted souls), animals (in this case predominantly aquatic) and asuras (anthropomorphic animals). In addition, it is possible for you to change what you are to one of the beings in this cycle, such as a human becoming a corrupted soul, a corrupted soul becoming a human, animals becoming trees, etc. The game has that foundation, but which beings exist in the game universe and how the change from one being to another occurs is different and is affected by other non-samsara things like memory cubes and the Rusty Lake.

[untold oar]

ohhh i see it better now, thank you so much for the explanation

[terse niche]

you are welcome

[wary quarry]

Im reading few books / arcticles and stuff about buddhism for a while soo i would like to talk about it. I will write about it here soon

Hopefully...

[wary quarry]

Article**

[frosty wolf]

just saying, i think the concept of samsara in rl is a bit different from the original that is from buddhism and other similar religions from what i've heard. its as if rl has their own version of samsara which would make sense because of the original things from rl that seem to affect this concept

[wary quarry]

Fair. But I think samsara wouldnt work if you change it because of it's concept. If you change it that would be just reincarnation

I mean samsara is the opposite of nirvana and its a cycle you can break and its not few people randomly reincarnating, it effects every creature

But there is a part i couldn't understand

Why did rose had to do things for laura's rebirth

Rebirth would happen anyways

I don't have any teories about it tho i will just write the similarities i noticed :cc

[azure bay]

1. To make it quicker
2. To make it better (guaranteed as a human/near the Lake/any other reason)
3. Or yeah, it probably wouldn't happen anyways.

[wary quarry]

Probably 2 i feel like rose wanted a family member☹️

[azure bay]

It wasn't Rose's plan

[wary quarry]

She couldve chose not to help

My question was about rose's avtions

:c

Thanks for answering

[terse niche]

Rose was needed for William's reborn into Laura as a Vanderboom last generation with Leonard and Frank. She is also used in the tree roots, but was planned to survive and raise Laura. We also see that Rose was able to communicate with William since she was a child and has probably already accepted the plans since then.

We don't know Rose's intentions, but she is already part of Mr. Owl and the others since her childhood probably.

[azure bay]

The thing is, at least initially Owl had nothing to do with William's rebirth

Logically, It became beneficial to him only later on.

Otherwise he wouldn't have problems with elixir in the 1st place

If James could recreate it using William's journals, so could he

Unless he didn't know he'd need them until it was too late

[terse niche]

William and Laura's rebirth would only make sense not to have been part of the plan from the beginning if that wasn't the plan for the developers all the way up to Roots. I find it highly unlikely that Aldous' enlightenment and Laura's birth were not planned from the beginning. Laura is primordial in Dale's enlightenment just like Mr. Crow is extremely efficient and participates in almost everything necessary to make these plans happen.

It is possible that William is the one who managed to make the elixir. Perhaps not even Mr. Owl would have been able

[azure bay]

It was planned from the beginning. It wasn't planned by Owl.

The major importance of Laura is elixir. It's specifically William's elixir memories that the golden cube required.

But if Owl knew he needed it all along, he would find a way without William's rebirth

Because James did

If an amateur can make an elixir just by following William's journals, so can Owl

But no, somehow it's all lost

And now Owl and Crow, after having missed that opportunity, have to rely on the dog and its extract

And on Laura

I think Owl wasn't aware of his mortality

That's why he was carrless about his sustainability

And when he finally realized that, he was like "Sh*t! I need a successor! And I need an elixir to make one!"

And thus he kills the guests to see Dale for the 1st time and shows his interest in William whose rebirth plan was in motion for decades then.

[untold stump]

Do u think its possible that Crow is just not telling Owl that William left notes and James made an elixir ? Crow could very well have plans of his own and decided to keep that info from Owl

[azure bay]

for the most part I see no evidence of him having such plans. Plus, they are together in the same boat. Both weakened, both drinking literal dogshit

[untold stump]

Crow did extract black cubes from Laura despite Owl telling him it would lead to a corrupted soul. But the message could also be interpreted as a warning from Owl, and corrupting Laura was part of his plan, since the ending of cave. I just find it weird that they cant do the elixir like James did.

[azure bay]

Indeed, Owl told him to extract all the cubes. The only difference, it was meant to be carefully done. I see that rather as a mistake than dislolyalty

[untold stump]

Also, how do you think Dale will become enlightened ? Birthday and Theater seem to lead toward the Caroline way to become enlightened, with the memories. But if Owl and Crow are making William's elixir out of dogshit, couldn't they just give it to Dale ? I think the dog elixir not enough to make Dale immortal, and it is only used for Owl and Crow to stay immortal.

[azure bay]

Caroline's way isn't that different from all the others. It still the elixir, only made of memories or ideas of the original ingredients. So is basically the golden cube. It's made pretty much in the same way only it uses William's memories about his elixir.

Speaking of the extract, there's too little of it left and it's considerably weaker. The dog drank the elixir only 10 years after Mr. Crow.

[wary quarry]

What happened to laura after she died is she going to stay as a corrupted soul forever

[azure bay]

Did you play The Mill?

[distant forge]

Hey I have a theory that Rusty Lake is inspired by this case https://youtu.be/_72MlCuYdSs

Many things coincide with the history of Rusty Lake

[azure bay]

But she said the tweets started being published in 2018

And rusty lake was pretty much developped as an idea in 2015

So who inspired who here?

[azure bay]

@distant forge

[carmine field]

Everything between Seasons and The Cave was released before 2018, so nope

[slow ridge]

Do you have a feeling that this scene is very evil? Especially when he tells us he’s a meat person

[azure bay]

Don't really

a bit bitterly ironic maybe

[slow ridge]

I feel discomforted every time I read it

[sudden dust]

he’s just had bad experiences with weird water creatures in his red drinks cough cough leech wine cough

jokes aside it’s pretty terrifying

[slow ridge]

Strangely, deers are always portrayed as an evil sign in RL verse.

[carmine field]

Deva Dale is the opposite

[visual coral]

Vanderdeer seems like a cool dude

[slow ridge]

I always think Nicholas Eilander (Mr Deer)is the second most deranged, vile character in Rusty Lake after Albert Vanderboom (the most evil character). Then there’s David Eilander (Mr Rabbit), and other minors characters Margaret (Pigeon) and Gerard (Boar)

[slow ridge]

What does Deva Dale represent actually?

[carmine field]

As far as I know, in Buddhism, Deva = moral god while Asura = demonic god

[azure bay]

I wouldn't say it applies to RL

[carmine field]

Not that it represents that in RL, but it would be a little ironic if he was really evil

[azure bay]

I don't think he'd be more evil than Owl, frankly speaking

machiavellian at most, so to speak

neither I think that Nicolas was inherently ebil

he had his set of believes and human sacrifice was their part but generally he was quite a chill man

[slow ridge]

A fanatic that comes to a point of burning his wife and son alive for ‘grander’ causes.

[azure bay]

fanatics are usually more emotional, y'know

[slow ridge]

Albert’s evil is driven by lust and vengeance, whereas Nicholas is driven by greedy and selfish pursuit. Unlike Albert, I think he has come to a point of numbness, as if he’s become indifferent to the vile things he did for his goal.

Back in Roots, it is clear that Albert always show signs of content and sadism to the things he did to the family. From the people he killed and torment, notably towards Frank. All that which proves him to be a deranged, vicious, depraved psychopath.

[azure bay]

Nicolas' pursuit wasn't only about him. It was about family too. Family that required precious sacrifices

[slow ridge]

However, as you mentioned, Nicholas is rather “chill” in the things he did. Because he thinks he’s doing what’s right and natural to the family. He never thinks himself an “Evil person”, which is in fact another type of evil (that kind of villain who thinks himself to be the hero and saviour of the story).

[azure bay]

he's not evil, he's wrong

badly wrong

[slow ridge]

Maybe we could call that unintentional evil then

[azure bay]

sound about right

[slow ridge]

Because unlike Albert, he really think he’s doing the right thing, while Albert knows exactly what he’s doing, and he definitely enjoy every single kill and torture spree he did upon his family (except Ida I suppose).

[terse niche]

This shows that Mr. Deer is not really a deer.

At the Rusty Lake Hotel there are plenty of evil undertones in the air.

[azure bay]

No, Mr. Deer is just a chemist.

Albert is no deer, just a sorcerer wearing a diabolic skull.

And we have nothing to blame VanderDeer for

[slow ridge]

Speaking of the skull. Is that the skull of Mr Deer himself (Maybe Mr Owl decided to gift it to Mr Crow as some souvenir lol). Albert may came across it in the house and started using it for evil purposes.

While other masks control the weather, that skull seems to possess some sort of dark spell which empowers the user for vile deeds.

[azure bay]

It could be but for now we have no idea how it would have ended up in possession of the bird-looking corrupted soul which may or may not be Mr. Crow.

Objectively, there's next to nothing to support these 2 assumptions. Corruption is a too big deal to keep it behind the scenes and ending it is only more so. Almost the same thing about the skull, it's not the only one in the series even if we assume that Albert wears the one that belonged to Deer.

[carmine field]

Besides Paradox, what other times do we see the skull?

[carmine field]

I disagree. Since I don't believe that corrupted soul is Mr. Crow, I think the skull may have been a gift for Albert.

[azure bay]

Hotel before Mr. Deer's death

[carmine field]

True

[rich spire]

In roots maybe ?

[azure bay]

the identity of bird-like CS is a very peculiar question

[rich spire]

Wait, Nicholas is a chemist, wasn’t it his wife Caroline the alchimist/chimist ?

[carmine field]

Not Nicholas, but Mr. Deer

[rich spire]

Mr deer isn’t the enlightment version or Nicholas ? It always that i thought

[slow ridge]

The skull is in The Past Within. The second chapter of The Future

[carmine field]

I believe so, but it seems he doesn't remember his past life, like all other guests

[azure bay]

It's the community consensus

[azure bay]

either that or the Eilanders were written into the lore in a very clunky way

[rich spire]

I mean, in paradox, mr rabbit is called mr Eilander so it would be possible that the other guest is the rest of the family

[azure bay]

it's not only possible, it's logical and narratively natural

David had only 1 chance to become enlightened

and it was shared by the whole family

[carmine field]

Well, this corrupted soul only appears in scenes of Albert, helping us with a puzzle and delivering the skull.

The best guess I could think of is that corrupted soul is Albert's ally.

[azure bay]

it's not enough to put an equality sign but technically there was Mr. Crow's corrupted-ish silhouette in the beginning and in The Lying Game there was Aldous' portrait which could be a subtle hint (like the same portrait in The Stars or the one of William in the final chapter)

[carmine field]

Yeah, but the silhouette of Mr. Crow at the beginning of the game did not have the "thorns" of a corrupted soul. It was just Mr. Crow in the shadows.

[azure bay]

here's how I see it. We don't know who is that bird but the best candidate in Crow despite it not having solid proof and not making much sense

Personally I'd expect some time travel but it's my quirk

[rich spire]

We have seen some corrupted souls without the thorn in game like in this image, mm pigeon does not have them (but mr boar have them).

[carmine field]

Still, it only happens sometimes. And the scene of Mr. Crow at the window takes place long before he supposedly became a corrupted soul.

[azure bay]

the problem is a bit different

[carmine field]

Hotel

[acoustic fern]

This corrupted soul isnt the feasant ones

?

[azure bay]

no, if Mr. Crow is somehow corrupted, we have to see how it happened. Especially since we see him normal afterwards

[carmine field]

yeah that's true

Him suddenly becoming a corrupted soul is weird. Unless there's time travel, this is kind of pointless.

[acoustic fern]

I think this corrupted soul its the feasant ones

[carmine field]

Pheasant is very different

[acoustic fern]

Its true

[azure bay]

So personally I'm betting on that for now, on time travel. But objectively we don't know

[carmine field]

Or it could simply be another asura who has become a corrupted soul, since asura society exists. But we never saw any asura birds other than Pheasant, Pigeon, Owl, Harvey, Crow and that little bird in Room 5 of Hotel

[azure bay]

strange important characters don't tend to appear only once

I think it's more probable that it's somebody we already know than somebody new

because otherwise we don't know their deal at all

[carmine field]

Yeah

[azure bay]

it's still possible to be a noname charachter

or somebody we know but don't expect

and the game explaining it didn't have an opportunity to come out yet

[carmine field]

I consider this possibility a lot, since being a character we already know doesn't make much sense. Like, why Mr. Crow's CS would go back in time to only appear in Albert scenes?

[azure bay]

past life substance?

doing something living Crow wouldn't dare?

[azure bay]

my problem with a new character, it's too late

if they had plans on them, we'd see them again already (more likely than not, I mean)

it's been 7 years

[carmine field]

As you said, it could be that the devs didn't have the opportunity to put this corrupted soul somewhere. TPW takes place 30 years after the scene of Albert getting the skull. Many things could have happened. But I understand what you mean, it's too late, but I don't think it really matters that much. Just for comparison, before TPW we had no idea that Albert knew so many things, even if it's late.

[azure bay]

I don't think the devs knew

or...

maybe he did, as I think about it

A guy who visited gamescom 2019 depicted something close to 002C

a clockwork cube

only later it was scrapped in favor of the tombstone

before returning to cubical devices

I have a different example

Mr. Rabbit's soul

1st we see it in Hotel as a secret

and then he comes to kill Dale's parents in the very next game

[sudden dust]

dumb idea i had last night : is the reason that william falls out of the clocks in many rl games because the clock is a Grandfather clock

[carmine field]

Yeah, maybe the devs already knew that Albert would have some knowledge, but we don't know how much. And it's also possible that the devs have plans with that bird CS, we don't know anything for sure

[carmine field]

Probably not

I imagine the Grandfather Clock is some magical device or something.

[azure bay]

I mean, sure. The thing is, we don't know these plans yet and if it were a new character I'd expect them being already revealed. But if it's somebody we already know, it's more forgivable to make us wait

[fossil oasis]

Anybody have any good theories as to why Mr. Deer’s Corrupted Soul is so humanoid?

[azure bay]

it's humanoid in Case 23 because it's just a CS with antlers

later on it was redesigned to have a deer skull outline

[fossil oasis]

These are from Hotel and Paradox, though.

[azure bay]

I know

it's a fan art in Paradox

and in hotel it's a silhouette of deer skull

[fossil oasis]

Oh, that makes sense. I remember that there was a contest to submit videos for the tv in there.

[azure bay]

not many people actually remember that

[fossil oasis]

I never even noticed that!

And yeah, they DO match up, comparing him with Albert's deer mask!

Maybe it's just the way the bottom of the skull blends in with the body, haha. If the skull's white like Mr. Rabbit's Soul's head was, there wouldn't be much confusion.

Great, now I'm wondering WHY Mr. Rabbit's soul was different compared to the other Guest's souls...

[sudden dust]

Is Laura depressed? we see in seasons (idk if there’s other games) that she’s prescribed prozac (antidepressant)

if so, what would be the reason? breaking up with ||robert||?

[carmine field]

ye, she certainly was

we don't know the reason for sure. Perhaps UB is going to clarify it

[stone bramble]

I dont think it was because she ended her reltionship. in laura's goodbye message for bob in theater she says shes been unwell for a while and went to rusty lake in hopes of getting better

maybe its hereditary or the fact theres spirits haunting her lol

maybe willaim just drains so much energy out of her who knows

my prediction for UB is that laura got bullied when she was younger and itll be show in the other child(teenage?) lane station. by looking at the group of kids in the teaser the gringer hair girl looks pretty mean so thats my guess

[visual coral]

Laura was prescribed prozac even before Bob, so she had these issues for a long time.
We definitely cannot know the reason for sure, but if we talking assumptions then I have two options:
1)Memories of her past life
2)Albert's CS harassing her

[azure bay]

I find this specific part quite unlikely. People are reborn left and right. It's just as natural as death.

[stone bramble]

this isnt really a trusted source I guess but I read in a qna panel the devs walked about how willaim feeds off laura's soul or something like that

[azure bay]

that's not what they said

they said "William more or less lives on in Laura"

it's not even close to feeding off Laura's soul

not even "William just lives"

There's just something of William inside Laura

and based on The Cave, these are his memories

past life memories people usually don't have access to

and require The White Door services to achieve it

Laura could be unique in that way

but before we can safely say that, we need more evidence

and we're already getting evidence against that

in UB demo Laura is just a kid

not an old man inside kid's body

[stone bramble]

ah ok misrembered qoute

[rich spire]

Wait i thought William totaly was reborn into Laura, i didn’t knew Laura had a other soul other than William (sorry if my sentence was weird, english is not my first language)

[azure bay]

I think Laura IS William

but she remembers nothing

[rich spire]

Ah ok, yeah me too.

[azure bay]

but potentially she can

[drowsy saffron]

After playing the demo of underground blossom and completing the secret level , here is a theory:
Rose says in the beginning of the demo that you, as the player, should take care of her. BUT as we know, in rusty lake games, the player is different from one game to another. If you progress further to the demo and open the suitcase, you take the camera so Laura takes pictures etc. But a closer look to the pictures show a figure but guess what, it's not mr crow, who usually stalks Dale, BUT IT'S HARVEY! You can see the beak. So my theory is, what if Harvey takes care of Laura, so rose can resurrect her father, and Laura depends on Harvey for his egg and in particular for the elixir? My theory grows stronger with Seasons because in Laura's apartment we see Harvey in the cage. But I think my theory is a little off for the fact that Harvey after the incident in the hotel stays as a bird and in underground blossom we play as a human.
*also i don't know if I'm chronologically right
**I'm new to the server so if anyone had the same idea as me, cheers 🍻

[carmine field]

You're right on the chronology, but there are some things we're not sure of

What do you mean by "Laura depends on Harvey for his egg and in particular for the elixir"?

Incidentally, we don't know if Rose really had to abandon Laura to dedicate herself to Albert's resurrection plan. Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me

[drowsy saffron]

Because Laura is the resurrected version of William and William wants the elixir

[carmine field]

No, William already found the elixir

And Laura apparently doesn't remember William's life

although there are remnants of the Elixir in her memories

[drowsy saffron]

Hmm, then maybe history repeats itself with Laura and Dale but there is no point for them to have the elixir, yet.
I think rose dedicated her life to science, it's possible that in the new game we will she her working in BKM and maybe there she thought of resurrecting her father.

[carmine field]

perhaps

[carmine field]

Well, the Elixir was necessary for Dale's enlightenment

as the Elixir formula was present in Laura's memories, that's where the new Elixir was taken from

[drowsy saffron]

I'm obsessed with all those theories. Can't wait for the new game so we can connect the pieces to unravel the story

[carmine field]

feel free to bring more theories here

[fossil oasis]

In Rusty Lake Paradise, the Harvey Easter egg ALSO shows him as a bird before the Hotel incident. This just gets more confusing.

Maybe it’s like Mr. Crow’s case, in which he needs dog poop water for the elixir to become a bird man again, but reversed?

Really wanna know why Harvey was like that in Hotel…

I NEED a Harvey backstory game!

[azure bay]

There's no Harvey's egg in Paradise

It's a crow egg

They are black too

[azure bay]

Nah, he already lost his asura form. It's likely gone forever. Samsara wheels say, he's an animal.

Us seeing it in UB is just artistic choise that doesn't reflect the reality

[feral remnant]

ok the pic that's got the bird head is upside down - it looks small (not human sized head, cos it's close to the ground) and it's shadowed (we can't see details cos it's black) so i just thought of it as a cane head. tho, it does look a lot like harvey's head, but i'm pretty sure he's fully bird at this point tho

[azure bay]

We had teasers. It's Harvey, he's anthropomorphic in the game, yes he's meant to be a bird, I think it's just an artistic choice.

[feral remnant]

ok coooool!

[fossil oasis]

I didn’t say that any egg in the game was Harvey’s. Just that he made a cameo in bird form.

Replace Twitter with “The Theories channel in the Rusty Lake Discord”.

[fossil oasis]

This is what I was talking about.

[visual coral]

Honestly, in theories you should specify if you're talking about JUST an egg or an EASTER egg

[fossil oasis]

I clearly said “Easter egg” in that message.

[visual coral]

well...

[steel imp]

I'm concerned about the RL plushes

Albert holds the golden cube, while Rose the black one

[azure bay]

another level

[steel imp]

I understand the past within the future, and viceversa, but not the ononimous stuff

Like not the past within the past

It's nonsense-icsl

This has to mean something. Albert is only alive in the future, while he obtained the golden cube previously. However, young rose has no way of possesion of the black cube

[azure bay]

I don't think it's deliberate

[steel imp]

It's a simple decision. Corrupted Albert (and Young Rose) posseses the golden cube, while Future Rose (and Albert) the black one. Why switch places?

[azure bay]

For no reason at all

[steel imp]

Are you agreeing with me?

[azure bay]

nope

switched places just because

nobody thought through for example

or here's a different guess

[steel imp]

But they are the RL plushies. They are covered in clout. They have to mean something.

[azure bay]

Albert is simply associated with the GC, Rose with the black one

Albert has created the GC

Rose has created the black one

[steel imp]

I disagree. Albert knew about the existance of a person with the black cube without using the golden one

[azure bay]

I'm just saying that Rose has created the black cube

and Albert has created the golden cube

that's it

[steel imp]

Albert instructs young rose that someone trusted is in the past. Albert didn't use the golden cube to instruct young rose. Albert knew about the black cube without peeking into the past. The black cube must have existed before the future

Albert created both the golden and the black cube

[azure bay]

the black cube has to be Rose's memory cube

[steel imp]

Why?

[azure bay]

it's the most natural way

how do you get a specific cube about specific person during specific time period?

you take it from their head

[steel imp]

You do because

:)

Jokes aside, that's not universally true

If you remember a previous conversation, roles and creation of cubes are very diverse

For example white cubes look into the future, while volden cube should but don't universally

And by the way, when were the golden cubes extravyed?

[azure bay]

we've seen a lot of black cubes. All have shown the past and all had the same origin

hypothetically I can imagine a black cube showing the future

[steel imp]

Wrong. We never extracted memories from the guest. They got corrupted eithout further procedure

[azure bay]

these are still considered their memories

the same mechanism

[steel imp]

All cubes are considered memories while tey are not. The word memory has a different meaning to the one we associate in our language

[azure bay]

demagogy

we have a cube from Rose's past and the most probable source is herself

not her future corrupted soul that timetravelled and lost a cube

not Albert killing 5 conditional guests to make The Past cube further in the past

[royal notch]

Actually, we don't see what Mr Owl does with the 5 skulls in his room... but i would make a wild guess.

[azure bay]

the cube was the 5th dinner

[royal notch]

I'm talking about the black ones.

[steel imp]

We know the structure of the hotel and of the elevator, though. There's no memory extraction machine in the whole hotel

[azure bay]

they seemed still parts of the respectives souls, honestly

[steel imp]

The Mill is unaccessible from the hotel, considering Roots map

[azure bay]

Caroline's cubes ascended with smoke

[steel imp]

Indeed, memory extravtion is not necessary

[azure bay]

but these cubes still belonged to Caroline

the same source, the same qualities

[steel imp]

And? They were not necessarily extracted. They just manifested

I have to go to mess however

See ya

[azure bay]

with Caroline's death

Rose is pretty much alive

[royal notch]

I believe memories may react to fire somehow. In Seasons it's clearly manifested.

[azure bay]

I declare Seasons as gameplay

one of repetitive tasts to make the player feel the level progression

[royal notch]

True, but the explanation of the phenomenon is revealed only at the end. However, i don't judge you , Seasons is a nasty rock in the shoe. It would give at least a basic explanation for Caroline's case, though.

[azure bay]

It shouldn't, they are 3 years and 9 games apart.

Not a single game requires fire to enter/escape a memory. Not even Paradise (even if it was canon in Seasons), there fire does a completely different thing

[royal notch]

Read "basic" as "general". The cubes may generally have particular behaviors to define with fire, or high temperatures. For now we only have 2 cases, and for 2 times something unexpected happened; we'll see only in the future.

[azure bay]

2 times is too little

So infrequent

So far apart

So it's likely just a coinsidence

You see fire, you see cubes.

As a normal human being, you recognize a pattern

But if a pattern is that general and isn't reinforced by more examples in 8 whole yeas, you may safely say, it's a false pattern

And nobody will accuse you if the pattern somehow turns out to be true

You had your data and it was ridiculous

If the devs really want you to see connection between cubes and fire, they are doing a poor job

[leaden rain]

I think rusty Lake might also be a cult name
From paradise we saw jacob and his mom burning- in some kind of Ritual
I think his dad learned those rituals from a cult named rusty lake since in the 1700s knowledge traveled so slow and also producing new information would be hard. And I think a cult could produce that information easily(if it’s also a big one)
So at the end even the cult name isn’t rusty lake I think there was a cult that Jacob’s dad was involved

And I also think the pictures in case 23 (you know what I’m talking abt) will reveal a big secret about the lore

[slow ridge]

Did anyone realise that Ida has already foresee the fate of the Vanderbooms and yet she still decided to marry Sam, either so she may changed his fate, or to share his suffering?

Back when Ida was looking into the future with the crystal ball. There was a scene which both of Sam's eyes were gouged out, which means that she knew he was going to die terribly some day.

But in the end, both her and Sam lost one eye, which implicated that instead of changing his fate, she could only carry his sufferings with him. The ball also already told her about Albert being the devil who was obsessed with her. And she also saw a vision about Rose (but I don't think she knew who she was). I suppose she believed that she is going to have a role to play in this family, and she must be with Sam whatever cost she had to pay.

[azure bay]

Nah, you're giving too much importance to it.

It was the future but also it was gameplay and potential spoilers. Just like Rose never wore a crown and Albert never had a literal devil mask, Sam was never meant to bleed from both eyes

But yeah

She was a fatalist

[slow ridge]

Well, I heard that from some old comments. And it's true that Ida loved Sam. She knew something was wrong with the Vanderbooms but still she married him.

[azure bay]

I don't deny it

I only deny her trying to change anything

[slow ridge]

She knew something dire was going to happen, and she knew what would happen to Sam. So I think the theory is convincing

[azure bay]

There are 2 stages

[slow ridge]

If not change, then she's trying to carry it for him

[azure bay]

The 1st one is more gameplay than exact future telling

It still foreshadows things

But does it in general and sometimes symbolic way

Because it's a puzzle

And only the red crystal ball rewards us with the exact future

About the marriage, about the massacre, about Leo's wounds and about William's rebirth

Ida does know the future

And still she accepts it

That's no doubt

Not quite sure it's because we saw Sam bleed though

@slow ridge

[slow ridge]

Let's just say all of this does not stop her from running away. And she did share the same fate with Sam.

[azure bay]

Actually I remember now. For one reason or another she did leave Rusty Lake. Returned only after Leonard was 5 or smth

[slow ridge]

It does foreshadow the events in a symbolic way, about what these people will become, what will happen upon them, though not a direct or actual vision or what people expect, like prophecies we see in stories.

[slow ridge]

When did she leave, I thought she and Sam are wed after Leo was born. Around this time they should probably be staying more often with each other.

[azure bay]

check the dates, their encounter and the wedding are 5 years apart and Leonard doesn't look like a newborn

[slow ridge]

But how is Leonard not a newborn if they only knew each for five years?

[azure bay]

easy

they conceived Leonard, Ida continued her journey and stayed with Vanderbooms only after she found her way back to Rusty Lake

[slow ridge]

Did they know each other for a longer time? (Before Sam fix the clock)

[azure bay]

I don't think so

[slow ridge]

And when is Leonard born

[azure bay]

around 9 months after the clock was fixed

[slow ridge]

Then Leonard should be 4-5 then

[azure bay]

that's what I'm telling

he looks nowhere near like a newborn

but could pass for a 5yo

[slow ridge]

Unless he's not Sam's son

[azure bay]

that's possible but I don't think that's the direction the devs would take

ah

I remember another thing

Leonard IS Vanderboom

[slow ridge]

You really thought about that!

[azure bay]

he looks a lot like James

[slow ridge]

James died decades ago!

[azure bay]

genetics don't care

[slow ridge]

Does Leonard look like he's 20 or something?

[azure bay]

Why are you asking?

[slow ridge]

He's definitely Sam's son. I understand why you thought in your way, but I don't think so

Maybe he just look older in the visual

[azure bay]

Dude, I'm not saying he's not

I'm saying he looks like grandpa

That's only natural

And thus, he's a Vanderboom

[slow ridge]

Is there any proof that she left?

[azure bay]

Nothing direct but there's no way Leonard is a newborn. We know how they are depicted in Roots.

Therefore, Leonard was born away from Rusty Lake.

Therefore Ida has left.

And the only natural time we know she would have left is after seeing Sam because she's a wandering fortune teller and that's a part of her lifestyle

Even her last name used to be Reiziger which means traveller in Dutch

[untold oar]

i was replaying roots and i got a question. why is it the year of 1891 and we see the light at the hotel that turned harvey into a parrot while in birthday we only see that in 1894?

[azure bay]

I'm sure because The Search chapter only starts in 1891

And goes on for 5 years until Emma completely loses hope and is ready to finish herself

[untold oar]

oh i see it i couldn't see much of the time that was passed during that chapter that's why it was weird to me

thank you tho!

[carmine field]

I think this is the only plausible explanation. There is no reason for the devs to change Harvey's death date

[vivid bridge]

Maybe they just decided to marry late?

[azure bay]

that's not how the things used to be done

[vivid bridge]

yeah but also this is fiction

[azure bay]

I prefer to take it as a better fiction

[vivid bridge]

Roots really needed one more level between The Clock and The Wedding Photo to introduce baby Leonard

both Frank and Rose have levels about their conception. Now I don't need to see that for Leonard (since he's the most... normal conception) but still

[alpine hollow]

Robert hill?

the jacket, the hair...
what do u think?

[carmine field]

Yes, it's Bob

[alpine hollow]

:D

by speaking of bob

why he looks different here

[carmine field]

They updated the art style

[alpine hollow]

I was thinking about that

[azure whale]

He did his hair paint job /j

[fierce beacon]

he hit midlife crisis and dyed his hair

• makeover

didnt get a nose job tho

[leaden rain]

i dont get it
in tpw the past at the end the past and the future Rose blend together and form a blossom tree
If rose was a tree in 1926 how she reached the 80s and Laura’s childhood?
Or is it just a metaphor to show Rose was enlightened ( or enchanted idk the word) and also a sign that Underground Blossom was going to come?

[azure bay]

Such paradoxes are easily resolved by introducing timeline branching

the cube is A past

not THE past

initially a faithful copy of THE past

until modified from outside

[leaden rain]

So with the cubical device we change the past?

[azure bay]

we change A past

while THE past is intact

[leaden rain]

That makes sense now

So we can also say in tpw we change a parallel universe

[steel imp]

A different game studio was involved. Also consider that Dale was completely revamped in Paradox (and no other game studio was involved)

[azure bay]

that's false

Second Maze is just a different legal entity

[steel imp]

Second mazd wasn't involved in the creation of TWD?

[steel imp]

And a different brand identity

[azure bay]

Second Maze are just Robin and Maarten under a publisher guise

and TWD uses Paradox art style

just like Samsara Room, The Past Within and Underground Blossom

[steel imp]

Samsara Room has legacy styling

[azure bay]

nah

[steel imp]

TPW goes well beyond Paradox design

And Underground Blossom

I don't know about UB

[azure bay]

*sigh*

[steel imp]

Look I have played the demo once

[azure bay]

All the games after Paradox follow the same redesigned style

every character and almost every item gets a new look

and the style overall is much more clean in comparison with The Cave and what came before it

[leaden rain]

UB is the shortened form of Underground Blossom

[steel imp]

Yes

Yes I know

[azure bay]

if that was legacy, it would take assets directly from Roots instead of redrawing them from scratch

the clock, William, the timepiece

[leaden rain]

You said you didnt know about ub so I thought you didn’t know the shortened form , sorry for interrupting

[steel imp]

I meant I don't know about UB artstyle

[leaden rain]

Yes I get it now

[azure bay]

basically Mr. Crow from TWD, young Laura from SR, Rose from TPW

adult Laura from Paradox

Bob from TWD too

[steel imp]

They are redesigned, true. But they don't follow Paradox canons.

[azure bay]

what canons are you talking about? I'm telling that the style over all drastically changed in Paradox and is used to redesign characters for every single game that comes after

Dale, Crow and Laura from Paradox are the new models for every game

notably TWD and UB

[steel imp]

Look at this guy. He has commas as eyes, it uses a more painty texture to define shades of the beard and its body model is questionable

[azure bay]

All that is irrelevant

I'm comparing everything that came after Paradox to everything that came before

what I am comparing are designs before Paradise and after

[covert wyvern]

Right this conversation is over

as per our rules discussion of datamined assets is illegal

you will both be handed a 60 minute mute because of this

I suggest not saying more.

.mute @azure bay 1h

[sweet zephyr]

nowherecrafter#0 was muted.

[covert wyvern]

.mute @steel imp 1h

[sweet zephyr]

MrCrowIsBald#9508 was muted.

[wary quarry]

Of anyone has a theory about seasons i would love to read it

If*

[azure bay]

I have a 2 part video. Maybe a bit difficult to comprehend but still worth a try

[wary quarry]

Can you send the links

[azure bay]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1cH-iHjE1ecoZM1w0XHmx-8oOPr9LqRd

sorry for the quality these are my 2 1st vids

[wary quarry]

Thanks

[carmine field]

Still great videos I'd say

[azure bay]

Well thank you

[steel imp]

Laura escapes from Mill
Releases Harvey
Steals her memories and gets inside one
Continues Seasons
Changes "the" past
Lives in her cubes

[visual coral]

Let's not forget Paradox happened

Also, she didn't release Harvey until after she found the blue cube.

[steel imp]

With Mr Crow

[azure bay]

What do you mean?

[steel imp]

At the end of the mill laura teleports and frees harvey

[azure bay]

We thought you were speaking of setting free the parrot in Seasons

[carmine field]

wdym by 'teleports'?

[azure bay]

The ending

It disappears

[carmine field]

oh

[steel imp]

Yeah no

RL theory: All the RL series is Harvey's high

NOTE: I'm playing devil's advocate, I don't actually belive this

In Hotel, on the 5th night, you get tripped up by the smoke of Mr. Boar opioids. The Lake then appears. The game hints that the high is over, but I think that all the rest of Hotel playthrough is Harvey just being high. When we see the white cube we are back into The Lake (or Harvey's allucination).

My theory is that Harvey is a crackhead psychomaniac that has allucinated this timeless place and all that happened in it. This would help explain is frequent anachronistic recurrencies, and his bizarre appereances while flipping states. It would also explain all the other controversies in the franchise, because it's all just a trip

[tiny kelp]

oh my god it all makes sense /j

[azure bay]

No! Bad! Shoo! /jk

[azure bay]

Never stopps being funny

[sudden dust]

maybe i should put the text bubble thing over it
unrelated tho, so imma shut up now

[wary quarry]

He deserved some treats😔😔

[wary quarry]

I mean i would imagine myself as a bird too

[wary quarry]

This sounds like that twin peaks return theory

We are living in a dream and laura (or lynch i have no idea) is the dreamer theory

Most series have this kind of dream theory tho idk i wouldnt be so suprised but just NO

My only theory is i think rose might be autistic

Can we manipulate the devs to make them create more shortfilms

I wont be satisfied with my seasons hyperfixation until they make one shortfilm for it too

[azure bay]

Unlikely. They are doing what they feel like doing in general but a movie... Paradox was crowdfunded

[vapid hinge]

Singularities are always in the future, and they absolutely shatter spacetime
Maybe one of those is why the lake is so fluid with time

[azure bay]

Why are you skeaking of singularities?

[steel imp]

Ah-a, you watched the new Kurzestag video or whatever it's called. Unfortunately, The Lake has little ground of being a singularity for a couple of reasons.

• First, in TPW is refered as an host for all the timelines (the cubes) that are preseny into the lake. As such is not an object
• Second, The Lake doesn't share any proprety of a black hole. You can get in and out of it, it doesn't attracy you to a determinate point, it doesn't absorb matter and doesn't produce random artifacts inside of it (with the only example of matter besides cube is a forest, often refered at the forest)
• Third, The Lake has counciousness. In Case 23, The Lake alledgedly gives you another possibilty if you get unfortunately killed by the Deer CS

[vapid hinge]

Yes and fair

[vivid bridge]

@azure bay Great video!

I still don't really buy the "all realities are inside cubes" thing but other than that, really solid

[azure bay]

Thx

[untold stump]

Just watched your video, nowhere, and its really good ! The animations were really well made and the explanation were surprinsingly understandable !
Do u think the fact that Albert got a golden cube by means that possibly broke some rules we're not aware of is going to have consequences that we're going to see in a future game ? Maybe we've already seen it, and a part of Owl's plan is to fix whatever Albert broke

[vivid bridge]

I guess you could argue that him creating a golden cube this easily has the side effect of only being possible due to the recursive nature of the past within loop. So even if you create a golden cube this way, you can't take it outside of the loop, making it practically useless

still, it kinda cheapens Dale's story

[untold stump]

Then how is Albert in Underground Blossom? We could argue that the game is meant to be metaphorical and the shadow represents Albert's influence on Laura's life, but the end of tpw where they break the loop makes me think that Albert got out

[vivid bridge]

Albert got out, the Golden Cube didn't

[untold stump]

Ah okay i misunderstood
We dont know exactly what the golden cube allows u to do, but id say Albert did get a pretty good use out of it, getting ressurected and escaping a cube, so i wouldnt call it useless

[visual coral]

Creating the Golden Cube was never Albert's goal

We can argue that escaping the cubes entirely is way more powerfull

[azure bay]

I don't think Albert broke anything. Nothing really implied he did, so I don't expect any consequences.

Also I doubt Owl's plans concern Albert. All he was doing was finding a new lake ruler to replace himself and fix his personal guest errors. This may change but it's likely to be retroactive (I don't think the devs thought Albert's resurrection through when Dale's story took its form) so it's hard to predict anything here.

[untold stump]

I guess you're right about Albert being out of Owl's plan, the devs probably thought about ressurecting Albert after the fandom went crazy over him.
What do u think Albert's plan is ? I'd have said he just wanted to live again but ub showed him, what do u think it means ?

[azure bay]

Probably up to no good with Laura. But too early to say

[empty willow]

what part of the game is this from?

[alpine hollow]

that's a Rusty Lakes post on social media, alarming us that Robert is going to be in the new game

[empty willow]

oh

ok thanks for answer

[alpine hollow]

[cold plover]

i agree with this. paradox almost had an era of finality to it, i feel like the rest of the games from here on out are meant to fill in the gaps

[azure bay]

Maybe because it's the final Cube Escape game. But the rest filling in the gaps... Not so sure here.

TWD and UB kinda do that, yes. Samsara Room too at 1st glance but it's actually an anniversary remake of an old game.

TPW doesn't really fill gaps but instead expands the story further into the future. As if it's a completely new arc cooking. The upcoming mammoth game will expand the timeline too but this time faaaaaaaar into the past.

What's funny, Paradox itself feels like it fills in gaps as if it's unnecessary for the story. It's grand, it's cool, it feels like it gives a lot of answers but it's still mostly just a dream before Dale starts his journey through Birthday and Theatre which, unlike in Paradox, contribute into Dale's enlightenment in a clear way. For now we understand so little about Paradox so we can skip it and the story over all wouldn't change much.

I hope it will be crucial for understanding the actual finale which hopefully will also explain wth actually happened in that dream.

[cold plover]

now that i think about it tpw did feel like completely new and it looks like theyre gonna be sticking with rose and albert for a little while

also i just now realized who you are and i like your theory videos :)

[azure bay]

Thx ^^

I wonder what else they can do with living Albert in the future. Maybe some new obstacle for Dale VanderDeer, the ruler of the lake?

It's really 12 years after Dale's supposed ascension

[cold plover]

oh i think that could be really cool. sort of like his adventure's complete but now he's faced with an actual adversary?

[azure bay]

Yeah

What's weird, Albert said he too belongs to the lake

But somehow we still see him in Best Kept Memory

As if he didn't become a tree in blossom like Rose

[cold plover]

maybe it's in a different sense. maybe belonging to the lake doesn't necessarily mean you are destined for the whole tree thing.

or maybe (and i haven't played tpw enough for this to have any credibility) albert found a way to escape the lake's possession. it's clear he's very knowledgable about this kind of stuff, considering he created a way for the past and the future to communicate. he's also the first person we see fully resurrected memories and all, right? (not counting robert, he changes between the two fairly often in a much different sense)

[azure bay]

I wouldn't call it "possession". This word is too specific for the evidence we have (or rather have not)

[cold plover]

not possession in like "taking over their body," possession as in "ownership"

[azure bay]

I understand

And still this statement required more knowledge about the lake

[cold plover]

oh i misunderstood lol. i guess i just dont know how to describe the whole "belonging to the lake" thing. not the best at these kind of things 😅

[azure bay]

Well, people belonging to the lake is a very new concept

It used to be about memories only

And now here we go

[cold plover]

oh right! i was thinking back to the mill and i just now remembered that it was memories back then

[royal notch]

Since everything is cubes maybe everything is a memory, and everyone belongs to the Lake in a sense.

[azure bay]

Maybe. Let's just not build something too big on such uncertainty

It's fun to play with ideas

But actually believing in them likely will lead to misconceptions and disappointment

[cold plover]

does anyone else find it weird how there's so much talk about fate and destiny, and yet almost every important decision seemed planned or coordinated? specifically the mill and the cave, but a lot of other happenings across multiple games

[azure bay]

I think there is some kind of fate

Owl does what he does because he saw Dale riding the elevator back in Hotel

But The Mill and The Cave being very coordinated... Not so sure

They could be

But ..

Oh!

There was 1 thing that likely didn't go according to the plan

Laura's corruption

It looked like an accident

[cold plover]

sorry should have clarified, by that i meant the setup of creating the elixir and having the submarine ready, or bringing a storm at a specific time so laura's memories could be extracted

it also seems like the accident at the hotel in 1864 might not have been planned

[azure bay]

Yep

[azure bay]

Maybe. Or maybe the storm is connected just for narrative reasons.

The submarine, on the other hand, seems like an old tool they always had around for such occasions

[cold plover]

maybe it's sort of like a guided fate then. not so much "this will happen regardless" and more "you should make this happen." could explain how mistakes are possible

but that would imply a sort of guidance from the lake which (im pretty sure?) we havent seen, so im gonna put that to the side for now

[azure bay]

I think there's just a flexible plan

[cold plover]

yeah that makes more sense

[azure bay]

Owl needs Dale and Laura's memories in the same place

How he gets them there isn't that important

[stone bramble]

hey saw this do y’all have any thoughts?

https://www.tumblr.com/pharrell-the-formation/726747680406126592/i-want-to-share-my-thoughts-about-naraka-hell

[vivid bridge]

yeah I saw this earlier, too

I think we discussed this before in here, about the Roses and Rabbit becoming Narakas

[azure bay]

Briefly on my opinion, blossom seems like a good thing that doesn't associate with a hell.

Also too good for Rabbit who clearly didn't win back then. Plus the tree was already there when he came. Maybe the tree somehow symbolizes Dale's soul in blossom after he defeated his fears.

Did you write this post by the way?

[stone bramble]

nah I just saw this and wanted to hear y’all’s thoughts lol

[carmine field]

What are your views on Paradox?

[azure bay]

initially a dream Dale sees in The Cave while being connected to the machine. Then it turns into a dream of a memory of the initial dream

[carmine field]

And what about its meaning?

[azure bay]

for Dale it's partially about finally solving case 23 partially about working on his past trauma

and also it's about making a choice who gets enlightenment

and also about embracing his corrupted soul whatever that means

[carmine field]

I think Paradox is not the moment he deals with his trauma but the moment he reflects on it
He needed to clear his mind and think through the possibilities before making a decision

[carmine field]

I think this is the main point among all

[azure bay]

for me, reflecting on trauma is a part of working on it

[carmine field]

yeah, it makes sense

I intend to write a text about Paradox, that's why I asked that question

I find it interesting to note that the purpose of Chapter 1 and 2 are totally different. In Chapter 1, Dale reflects on Case 23 and Laura, while in Chapter 2 he is pretty much the center of attention

Looking at it that way, it makes sense that the alternate endings are in their respective chapters too

[azure bay]

I don't think it has lore meaning

this thematic difference

because I see the ending distribution between chapters primarily as gameplay

[carmine field]

It is also possible, but I see that it fits each of the chapters

It is also in chapter 2 that the character realizes that he is trapped

[azure bay]

I mean it fits narratively but it's the narrative of the video game. In the movie it would be as different for secret endings as for normal endings

[azure bay]

but it's not ch1 or ch2 when he canonically escapes

it feels to be much further into the loop

[carmine field]

btw, do you think the Green Vial alternate ending happened at some point as one of the numerous versions of Dale?

[azure bay]

if it happens it has to be the end

the loop is built in a way that Dale has to reach the lake and enter the next cube

[carmine field]

I remember it appeared on TV in the movie

[azure bay]

which clearly doesn't happen in the green ending

instead the cube turns white

and Laura lives

even "wakes up"

[carmine field]

I think Dale at least may have reflected on this choice, as do several other versions of him appear too

[azure bay]

the real choice I think is between secret endings

either you end this or find the real exit

[carmine field]

Would the golden cube ending be him accepting Laura's death and moving on with the journey?

[azure bay]

I think so

but 1st he needs to start looking for it

I think these 2 achievment hunts are about Dale learning about Paradox

recalling past iterations

understanding the rules

either decision requires careful consideration and thinking beyond the box

1. because normally you don't wanna die

2. because it's a clever trap

[carmine field]

Indeed

Btw, about the future mind...

Could the elderly Laura symbolize a future for Laura if Dale sacrifices himself?

[azure bay]

I guess

[carmine field]

Also... Paradox is a black cube

Which means this experience could have been a bad one, unless Dale sacrificed himself

[azure bay]

definitely

[carmine field]

Maybe because someone has to be dead

there is no escaping this fact

Or maybe because Dale suffered while exploring all the possibilities

Even getting corrupted

In Chapter 1, normal Dale finds Laura and tries to save her (at least in the movie)

In Chapter 2, he reflected on so many things and interacted with so many versions of himself that he even corrupted himself and "accepted" Laura's death

(He didn't fully accept and couldn't find the exit, so the loop restarts)

disclaimer: I personally don't believe that Dale killed Laura in Seasons. It sounds a bit off to me

[azure bay]

not sure he accepted anything, CS are usually simply agressive

and also he was given a knife

as if he was manipulated

[carmine field]

He knew what do do

[carmine field]

Perhaps all of this was too much for him, even as he cleared his mind and considered other possibilities

[azure bay]

I repeat, he didn't consider much at the time

likely did what he was told to

"not red vial"

and "face your corrupted soul"

[carmine field]

Well, he met up with several other versions of him, including a corrupted version, VanderDeer and a few dead ones

[azure bay]

I have strong doubts he was in his mind, so to speak, back then

[carmine field]

That could be the only future he thought of at that moment: leave Laura dead and think about it all over again, over and over again....

[azure bay]

I don't see him knowing or remembering that it will start over but I almost see presure from almost everyone he meets in the forest

"embrace your corrupted soul" "I know you made your choice, use your CS" "here's a knife, do it"

[carmine field]

I think the loop itself is something unconscious

Like he unconsciously coming back because he missed something

[carmine field]

There was definitely pressure on him to make a choice

[azure bay]

the choice was earlier

I think it was about a vial

[carmine field]

yeah, but I want to say that even before there was pressure

Laura saying that Dale has to make a choice, Mr. Owl doing his whole monologue...

[azure bay]

I think Laura speaks of a more global choice

speaks about the ending

about elixir

[carmine field]

Could be too, but the blue vial is about the possibility of her staying dead.

I interpret the endings as follows:

Red Vial: Dale unsure of his choice but wanting to save Laura. Since he doesn't know the rules of the game, he fails.

Green Vial: Dale finding a way to save Laura, but sacrificing himself.

Blue Vial: Dale, his mind clear after finding out more about himself, proceeds to ""accept"" Laura's death as that's what he has to do. However, that wasn't enough for him and the loop restarts as something was missing.

Golden Cube: Dale discovering the exit and putting aside any regrets of his choice to proceed with the journey.

[azure bay]

I wouldn't even speak of blue vial acceptance even in caps. Blue vial is about the consequences of Dale's actions he "can't escape" just like he can't "escape the boundaries of [his] mind"

[carmine field]

It makes sense

[azure bay]

No matter if Dale choses the red vial, his future-self will eventually pick the blue one

and the only way to save Laura is to kill the would-be killer

or accept these consequences and look for the exit

the golden cube is about acceptance, I think

[carmine field]

So...

Facing his corrupted soul is about facing the consequences he cannot escape, like just a new perspective of his situation?

[azure bay]

only facing doesn't necessarily mean becoming it

[carmine field]

Ye, without accepting it

From the Red Vial, Dale witnessed Laura's death from an incomplete perspective, as someone who wanted to save her

From the Blue Vial, Dale experienced the perspective where he kills Laura, as it should be

One is about the desire to save a person while the other is about the inevitability of fate

[azure bay]

I disagree

I see the latter rather as an honest mistake

The red vial is about inevitability

it's the choice of trying to avoid the choosing

but the consequences are inevitable

I see inevitability in red ending and don't see it that much in the blue one because of the spoken lines

nothing in ch2 tries to convince Dale of inevitably of him killing Laura

Crow speaks of past traumas

Laura speaks of elixir in general

Owl speaks of Dale's envisaged role and the final test of corrupted soul

which doesn't imply killing Laura by default

Dale kills Laura not because it's inevitable but because he's corrupted and almost mindlessly does what's he's told

that's the reason of inevitability

not a result

the result is Dale not being able to save her by choosing the red vial

[carmine field]

[azure bay]

because that's what Crow said

"did you really [make the right choice]? You can't escape the boundaries of your mind nor the consequences of your [future?] actions"

"you can't save her unless you sacrifice yourself"

[carmine field]

Did he become corrupted and kill Laura because he couldn't find an answer?