🤔｜theories

[azure bay]

yes, the the devs used Rose's visual. It's still edited so from the lore perspective it's unclear whether it's really Rose or just some placeholder

[royal notch]

The fact that the enlighteneds can see the future seems a bit too much, in fact. Many problems would have been solved.

[azure bay]

exactly

well

technically there is a way for them to see the future

however it's still unclear how powerful and accessible it is for them

[carmine field]

The only time this happens is at Hotel, isn't it?

[royal notch]

For now, it seems so.

[azure bay]

yep

[carmine field]

Unless we consider the easter egg at the end of Paradise too

but it may have just been a reference to Paradox

[azure bay]

it was just a half of the easter egg

[carmine field]

By the way, was that the reason for the murders in Hotel?

[azure bay]

at least the major one

[carmine field]

It doesn't seem to me that Mr. Owl wanted revenge or something

[visual coral]

Dinner

[carmine field]

oh of course!

[carmine field]

A lot of people interpret it that way (Mr. Owl wanting revenge on his family), but in Paradox Mr. Owl says the sacrifice in Paradise was needed

Just complementing

[azure bay]

he said it about his transformation

not about Hotel

[carmine field]

I mean his sacrifice in Paradise

let me edit it

[visual coral]

I think Owl needed the guest's CS for something

[azure bay]

no, his sacrifice was needed for a different transformation

for the one of his, it was Caroline who's sacrificed

[azure bay]

finding out about Dale seems much more important

[visual coral]

It sure is. But why are the CS trapped in his room?

[carmine field]

I think it would be to prevent the CS from escaping

But they managed to get out

And also, to make the white cube

[azure bay]

I don't think there has to be an in-lore reason. Maybe Owl needed an office and it became the only place left unexplored

[azure bay]

the white cube was somehow made from the 5th dinner

if it's the main reason Hotel happened then the CS are just a byproduct

[carmine field]

If so, maybe there's a machine like the Memory Extractor

[royal notch]

I tend to think that was invented later.

[carmine field]

Hotel was after The Mill

[azure bay]

an interesting fact: the tanks already look like Pigeon's memory extractor. Could be just asset reuse tho

[azure bay]

wdym?

[royal notch]

[carmine field]

Ms. Pigeon was researching the cubes, right?

[azure bay]

and their extraction

[carmine field]

Release order

[royal notch]

Ah, okay! I meant lore-chronologically!

[carmine field]

Maybe Mr. Toad knew a way to extract memories from bodies

Whatever it is

[azure bay]

I have a strong suspision, Pigeon was the one who helped Owl to invent the extractor

[carmine field]

Asura society might have more advanced technologies than human society too

They live centuries

[azure bay]

Owl and Pigeon seem to be the vanguard

[visual coral]

I thought there were many CS wandering the lake besides the guests. So my guess was Owl needed them specifically. I guess I was wrong

[azure bay]

even if there are some, I think catching them would take more effort

[visual coral]

Yeah, but he basically made them. So he wouldn't even need to catch them

[azure bay]

that's what I'm saying

if he needed some CS (IF) he didn't have to catch them since he already created some as a byproduct of another scheme

[visual coral]

Oh so was right then

Nice

[vivid bridge]

I wonder what happened to Laura's corrupted soul between The Mill and The Cave

Like when did they capture her

[azure bay]

and most importantly, why?

[floral mauve]

either UB content or she got trapped down the lake like the rest logically speaking

[azure bay]

they've already got her memories

[vivid bridge]

I mean, I get that part. You need her to do the thing with Dale

[vivid bridge]

but if they can just capture corrupted souls, then whats the point of Dale's entire journey

[floral mauve]

though if they can capture her then they shouldnt be worried about the rest, unless there was an agreement

such as allowing her to escape her current state

I mean Crow did try to negotiate

to calm her down a bit

[azure bay]

1. she's the elixir source
2. she's a sacrifice

The 1st one is fulfilled but why the heck the 2nd one? Isn't it easier to get someone like Bob?

[floral mauve]

perhaps she turned less hostile and become similar to William and Caroline

[vivid bridge]

something something fate

[azure bay]

Dale's journey seems to have next to nothing to do with a CS

[vivid bridge]

thats Dale's whole thing

[visual coral]

Well, Dale is set to be a deva. Maybe they need a special sacrifice

[floral mauve]

not sure tbh, it was our interpretation

[azure bay]

it's the endgoal. Dale is to become the next ruler of the lake powerful enough to stop the loose souls

[floral mauve]

there was never a direct confirmation

[vivid bridge]

sure but if they can capture Laura's soul, why not the rest

[floral mauve]

rizz crow negiotiator

[azure bay]

too many, too difficult?

[vivid bridge]

okay

Wow plothole 🤓

[carmine field]

perhaps Laura's CS became less aggressive at some point

[floral mauve]

I already kinda provided a possible outcome

[carmine field]

and well, it's her memories

[floral mauve]

.

[vivid bridge]

I guess

[azure bay]

there's nothing to make it stand out from the rest of possibilities

[carmine field]

I hope we can see something in UB

[floral mauve]

you didnt give any

take it or leave it

[azure bay]

that's not how it works

[floral mauve]

yes

[azure bay]

there's still only one truth and there's not enough info to make a reliable guess

[floral mauve]

I am not even trying to think atm

too vague

[south heath]

See, now it makes a bit more sense to me, as I looked into the Buddhist Samsara stages

Oh also this is completely random but... did the corrupted souls from Hotel beat the human out of Harvey or what like what happened to him

[azure bay]

They killed Harvey the asura and he was resurrected by Owl as Harvey the animal

[south heath]

WAIT.

Why does it make more sense to me now than before

[south heath]

So that means that Owl is like. The God realm situation in Samsara then?

[south heath]

OH HES DOING THE TPOSE THING LIKE HE DID TO DALE

I never caught that??

[azure bay]

I'm convinced Owl is an asura too. Maybe the difference is, he's backed by the lake. Because Dale is to become a god and his journey is way grander than the one of Owl.

[south heath]

Hmmmm I gotta read up more on the levels so I can understand a bit

[carmine field]

btw what is written here?

[south heath]

But if Dale is supposed to become the Devas then was there someone before him that we shoulda known?

[south heath]

Samsara

[carmine field]

it makes sense

[azure bay]

wdym?

[south heath]

Sorry I just took a like 3 hour nap.... but if they already knew they needed a godlike figure at the lake to help keep cs at bay, there must've been some example they'd seen at some point?

Honestly I thought the story was Dale's journey to replace Owl on that podium but saying that Owl's possibly just another asura has me wondering

[carmine field]

Owl is the chosen one from Paradise

I'm not surprised to learn that he has capabilities beyond the common

[azure bay]

There's no deva we know about. Owl is the only guy in charge and he's the one to be replced by someone more powerful

[vague imp]

Have you guys looked at the newspaper? Spoilers? ||the article about the train crash has apostrophes that spell out the words “memory extraction”|| but I can’t figure out if the other things have meaning too, like the numbers of the weather forecast

[covert wyvern]

Check out #📼｜tpw-bkm-arg

[woeful lynx]

Is the crossword on the newspaper solvable

[vague imp]

They solved it in #📼｜tpw-bkm-arg

[azure bay]

It seems, ||Albert lives for real. And he has new abilities.|| And for some reason he's in 2023. Or at least 2004

[sudden dust]

||wait, new abilities such as what||

[azure bay]

he was pretty much acting like a CS. Appear out of nowhere, ||destroy everything|| and vanish

[floral mauve]

so ehm

is he acting like one or maybe he is one

the past Albert CS seems like still not vanished

unless, past and future Albert also got merged so the current whatever that Albert is got both abilities

[azure bay]

The BKM Albert doesn't look corrupted

Either something happened to the UB one

or they are technically 2 different entities

[floral mauve]

then future Albert also escaped, only Rose got transformed into a tree

perhaps Albert now is trying to save Rose

lmao

[floral mauve]

the worst scenario is that he decided to revenge on Laura instead of finding solutions. Actually, i have a even worse one, he used Rose to resurrect and went mental for whatever he wants

[azure bay]

that transformation seems like a good thing

[floral mauve]

seems like a good thing

seems

though I personally see no loop

so Rose could have lived on with her life technically

[azure bay]

I don't get what you are saying

[floral mauve]

Albert refers it as a good thing since it broke the loop

I see no loop if Rose just leave it be

[azure bay]

he sasid they were all trapped in the cubes they have created. But the game itself said and shown that a soul in blossom is a good thing

[floral mauve]

what is good and what is bad in that case

thus I guess Rose isnt in naraka tbh

or is she

[azure bay]

In her case I'd call it Nirvana

[floral mauve]

in grand universal view

the universe is lake which contains many cubes

the single tree under the lake would considered to be like naraka?

[floral mauve]

I dont see it, I see no connection between nirvana and resurrecting your dad

[azure bay]

there no direct connection

[floral mauve]

if its altruism then sure saint is a thing I guess

[azure bay]

you resurrect your Dad and he's like: do you want to reach nirvana?

[floral mauve]

its like Rose became a saint or nun figure

maybe she is

idk

[azure bay]

I wonder what are implications or belonging to the lake, reaching it and having a soul blossom. Because Albert was speaking as if he was going there too.

I have 2 guesses

1. He either can't follow her yet for some reason

2. He has returned and it gave him some abilities

[covert wyvern]

Maybe Albert is like a lich and he feeds off lake souls to sustain himself

[azure bay]

we need to know if it's possible to feed off souls

[floral mauve]

also seems like he has been there or certain knowledge about it

I doubt there is an expert other than Owl who studies that deep

[carmine field]

So Rose does indeed have connections with BKM

[visual coral]

So, ||Albert looks alive in 2004.He must have escaped through the lake and that would explain the time jump.|| But wouldn't that mean that he's in the timeline where Rose is a tree?

[carmine field]

We're not sure if he can jump from one timeline to another, or if Harvey is the one who does that

The train itself is a mystery

Btw, did Rose really become a tree? Or it could be a metaphor for something?

[visual coral]

I think CS can also jump timelines.
If Albert been in the lake, he could've went to any timeline

[carmine field]

Through the cubes in the Lake, right?

[visual coral]

I'm using nowhere's theory about the lake being some sort of portal out of the cubes, out of samsara

So if you're "outside" you can go back "inside" at any point in time I guess

[azure bay]

Metaphor or not, Rose's consciousness has gone to the lake

[vivid bridge]

i'm still interested to see how metaphorical the subway stations are. Like did Rose and Laura actually visit the subway station or is this more of a stage in a play? Like are we gonna see her murder, just in the subway station?

[azure bay]

I think subway is rather a stage

[vivid bridge]

It's what i'm guessing

there's no way they do a laura game and not show her dying for the tenth time

[floral mauve]

perhaps it is a tape?

[vivid bridge]

yeah that was an idea I had. It's BKM's equivalent to the cubes

[floral mauve]

advanced technology for memory extraction with less harm

[vivid bridge]

I don't know if I'd like that, though. Feels like a repeat of the main storyline

[floral mauve]

the problem would be is it memory of Laura or Harvey, feel like Harvey though

[vivid bridge]

oh true true

I'd say its about Laura and Harvey is an external visitor/viewer but Rose does directly speak to him

so that implies that Harvey is part of the memory

[azure bay]

We saw Harvey in the lake under the blooming tree

I think metro with the blossom is somehow the lake too

[floral mauve]

I am still uncertain whether Harvey Mammoth project is next or no, it appears in roadmap might be in memorial plus perhaps its better strategically for long term mystery

[vivid bridge]

I'd say so

[azure bay]

I'm not sure anymore if Harvey is related to mammoth

[floral mauve]

if it is, then UB is mostly introduction to Harvey identity

[vivid bridge]

I mean, thats a stretch

oh

I mean, maybe

[floral mauve]

or more of a hint

[azure bay]

wait

[vivid bridge]

I just don't see how UB could show us Harvey's origin if its all about Laura

[floral mauve]

at least I didnt expect the easter egg

[floral mauve]

not origin, just hint

[azure bay]

@floral mauve don't you expect to see the mammoth in UB?

[floral mauve]

or introduction

[floral mauve]

it wont fit underground

innit

[azure bay]

phew

[vivid bridge]

yeah the mammoth is its own thing

[azure bay]

Harvey's origin is the black egg

[floral mauve]

Scholock homes

[azure bay]

no, the dev's quote

it could be shown in 20k BC but it doesn't have to. Could be in any other game that may predate Hotel

[floral mauve]

thats what I expect them to say cuz they wont really just say oh Harvey is lake powered creature blablabla

[vivid bridge]

After UB, I think I never wanna see Albert again

I wanna see something new

[azure bay]

well, old background villain commiting new evil sounds rather interesting

[vivid bridge]

yeah but I don't really like how TPW characterised both Rose and Albert

so like

I mean, maybe Albert has a really good role in this game

but i'm not gonna get my hopes up

I just want something new thats not tied to some ARG

Really, the last time we got a whole new cast of characters was Paradise (White Door if we count Sarah and some background characters)

[azure bay]

(somewhere, one Chad Brunswick becomes sad)

[ivory girder]

||also what do yall think about the voicenote thingy that chad said "memory of crow" when we gave him jimbo's tape||

||maybe it's a glitch but that's worth noticing||

[azure bay]

it's an error. The subtitles are correct

[ivory girder]

oh welp

hopefully when bkm arg ends chad doesnt end up like dr hoorn

[azure bay]

I don't really care

[ivory girder]

well yeah it's just an arg but i really didnt think that they would add all bkm stuff to the demo not the real game

[azure bay]

I hope they port everything to the full game too

[carmine field]

From what I've noticed, the tapes only load while you're connected to the internet, what does the game lag a bit. I don't know if putting all the tapes in the game definitely would weigh the game or not.

So I understand if the devs remove that station from the final game.

[floral mauve]

is it

[carmine field]

Wait a minute

If the MemoryCube tapes were recorded, with Albert appearing on them, and then ended up on Rose's desk, does that mean the tapes traveled back in time?
Or Albert may have actually gone back in time.

[floral mauve]

||the more I think, the more it feels like a simulation Harvey goes through in the form of underground. Like some new machine, like why Harvey still needs to pay for the ticket, why is Crow there, seems like a memory journey indeed||

[floral mauve]

I dont quite get it, it seems like Albert is in both human and CS form in UB

[carmine field]

I guess I think the same way (I accidentally sent a sticker because of the lag)

[carmine field]

one minute

https://www.youtube.com/live/opPUpiYJs58

Albert appears near the end, until it is revealed to us that someone has the recordings.

[floral mauve]

ye

[carmine field]

That person could be Rose, as in the secret teaser we see her name abbreviated in the title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEuP1vSiUQ

[floral mauve]

emmmm I guess its weird if you think about it

since Rose technically is already gone by that time

[carmine field]

yeah

I have to leave now, but feel free to discuss

[azure bay]

These recordings simply outlived Rose

[floral mauve]

no

the problem is

When Rose see Albert, or when he got revived, she will be gone quite soon, and there is no way she just left her dad in lab and be like yoo I am gonna store my memories and be right back

unless she did it in the same room or something since she technically works in bkm I suppose

[azure bay]

I don't think it was the case. There could be only 1 recording about Rose's memories (UB teaser) and the rest is someone else using her lab and seeing Albert

And then somebody, probably Chad, watching all these recordings

[floral mauve]

true

plus there isnt necessary anyone behind camera

its more of a recording not a memory vhs I suppose

[azure bay]

It looks so, BKM memories look different

[carmine field]

The teaser doesn't seem to be a recording of Rose's memories. UB is about Laura's memories from Harvey's POV, right?
But I agree that she wasn't the one who taped the lab, because she would be gone by that time.

As VHS technology was already quite strong in the 80's, I still believe in the possibility that perhaps the MemoryCube recordings ended up in Rose's possession prior to the events of TPW, implying some kind of time travel.

Well, I'll look into searching more about BKM by my own.

[azure bay]

Whatever it is, it's under Rose's name and it's about the past

[vague imp]

Anybody knows who is harvey? Mr.Owl's close friend but who?

[carmine field]

we don't

[azure bay]

actually the devs said 3 things in 2021

[vague imp]

Is there any rustylake character lists or not?

[carmine field]

Harvey's origin is still a mystery, we only have a few clues

[azure bay]

1. When asked about his connection to Paradise, they said that Harvey is an old character that knows many other characters
2. Harvey hatched from a black egg
3. Harvey is a sort of guide to other characters\

[azure bay]

there is one on the wiki. Although be careful, it's not edited by the devs and may contain mistakes and theories

[carmine field]

Btw, it seems that the first meeting between Harvey and Mr. Owl was in Hotel due to Mr. Owl's introduction

But it could be just Mr. Owl introducing himself to the player

[plain token]

someone remind where was the rl assumed to be located.Canada or sth?

[azure bay]

It could be Canada... only the chapel was built several centuries before America colonization

[errant trellis]

i think someone said like russia as well at some point?

[azure bay]

ehm...

[azure bay]

Why?

[errant trellis]

im not sure!

like countryside or something?

[azure bay]

the best guess fitting all the evidence is the north of England

Leonard wore a brody helmet during WW1 which narrows down the search a lot

the chapel cuts off everything not in Europe

so it's England

but not Scotland because it used to have its own uniform back then

and mountains are closer to Scotland

so north it is

Also the Vanderboom last name somewhat fits

it's transformed

all attached

as if some migrants adapted it to the structure of English

normally it would spell van der Boom

don't I imagine things, @covert wyvern ?

can you confirm this assumption?

[carmine field]

It's just me or this old version of TPW is set in the Chapel?

[frosty wolf]

not sure if its the exact same one but it seems similar

[azure bay]

More like a cube inside a cube, I presume

[carmine field]

it seems so

[vivid bridge]

Man i'd love a new game that takes place at some old building like that

I really miss the mysticism in RL

Nowadays its all samsara stuff

Which I guess counts but its different

[frosty wolf]

isnt the entirety of rusty lake based around the concept of samsara? so they cant really leave it alone but i also hope the new games lean toward other things and not just samsara

and i dont think we need any new information on samsara as cave and well, samsara room have basically almost revealed everything about samsara

[carmine field]

I get what you mean, but The Cave reveals almost nothing about Samsara, and the idea of the cycle in Samsara Room contradicts the wheel

actually, I think the game that reveals the most about Samsara is Theatre

[frosty wolf]

why do you think so? the only thing i can remember about samsara being brought up in theatre is the last play

[carmine field]

all the plays are based on the stages of the wheel. Btw, the wheel debuts in Theatre
We also learn that Mr. Crow = asura and Dale = deva for the first time in Theatre

As far as I remember, in The Cave there is only the representation of the wheel, which had already been shown in Theatre

[frosty wolf]

quite true

i havent known about rusty lake for two years so pardon my lack of knowledge

[carmine field]

dont worry

I'm sure if I go away for a few months I'll forget about half of the stuff lol

[frosty wolf]

real

[tiny kelp]

@carmine field yes, that could be true, but then how would harvey have if being just an animal? and would the dog need to, we never saw crow or owl have to, in william’s level in roots we simply saw aldous become mr crow in that second

[carmine field]

give me a second

Just as there was a long time period between Paradise and the birth of the Hotel guests, it's possible that there are instances where characters don't reach enlightenment right away, unless their birth dates have been retconned.

Mr. Boar, the eldest, was born around 1841. An interval of over 40 years.
My guess is that the Eilanders became immortal at that time, before they became asuras.

[floral mauve]

That’s the theory part

[carmine field]

yeah, it's all theory

[floral mauve]

It still doesn’t make sense since age would be pointless ngl

Plus

Memory losses

Or concealed

My guesses is that they reborned in a different timeframe, so just like any newborn with no past life memories, but for Eilanders, they will born as Asuras

[carmine field]

it's possible too

[calm glade]

know a bit more of samsara (its part of my culture) i wouldn't say that they become immortal but instead it is their soul coming back after the cycle

because you are able to return to the cycle even if you have 'completed' it

so they naturally know more, for they have less lessons to learn, and they have prayed as well, leaving them with more abilites (hence the asura)

[carmine field]

What does 'Reubtmoce' mean?

[covert wyvern]

Cube metro, maybe.

[carmine field]

thanks

[terse niche]

About the dog (continuing the discussion in arg's room). He is undoubtedly immortal considering he is quite old when he appears again in The Cave. The elixir tends to act in different ways on who takes it so either the dog just became immortal or he never wanted to stay in his asura form or doesn't have the intelligence for it.

Sure they take a lot of inspiration from the religion that surrounds Samsara, but instead of dying and karma determining how you're reborn, there are other rules. Like the elixir, corruption by extracting black cubes, rituals that transform corrupted souls into humans (roots), etc that allow you to transform into different creatures of the wheel that are corrupted souls, animals, plants, asuras, gods and humans

Interesting that we see 3 people being corrupted souls and humans at the same time as Laura, Dale and Bob. Either they are both at the same time or they can look human like asuras can (Mr. Crow and Mr. Owl)

[azure bay]

I don't think transitioning between states means their simultaneity

Only Dale could be considered semi-corrupted during his elevator ride

But we don't really know what's happening to him

[visual coral]

Bob's corruption is psychological, Laura is dead, and Dale is a special case.
The devs clearly don't follow Samsara's rules to a T, or any other rules but their own and that's what makes it so fun to figure it out.

[terse niche]

We get to see Laura corrupted and human on several occasions like The White Door, Paradox and The Cave. And she undoes her death in Seasons. Bob is not psychological at all. Dale witnesses him corrupt more than once and his transition is clear during The White Door. Dale too. We clearly see him corrupted and human at the same time several times in Paradox, Birthday and Theater. We even see Dale as an asura. A Mr. Stag maybe.

[azure bay]

The White Door are mostly flashbacks. The Lost Soul wasn't but was a fever dream instead.

Paradox takes place inside Dale's mind.

The Cave needs further context before we can explain it.

Seasons has to happen either in a different timeline or inside a mere memory. Otherwise Case 23 and everything that follows it isn't canon.

Bob's corruption in Police Station was psychological. The officer was straight bullying him. So was his corruption in TWD facility itself.

Only his corruption in Theatre would be due to memory extraction if Theatre isn't just another altered memory/timeline.

Dale is teased to become a deva, not asura. Just saying.

[carmine field]

Perhaps the Samsara Wheel does not require a literal death for someone to become a corrupted soul. For example, in Day 5 of The White Door we see that Bob dies to switch places with his corrupted soul. Not a literal death, but maybe it fits Samsara?

[azure bay]

I think there was no literal place switching. Likely, he's just went corrupted just like he did in the police station

[carmine field]

Agree

[carmine field]

The same happens on Day 7, but with the corrupted soul. Along with Dream 6, perhaps the room gaining color could be interpreted as "Balancing the substance of past life"

[azure bay]

I wouldn't be so sure

he changes nothing

only his perception

he learns again a lesson long forgotten

nothing is gone

it's still within you

inside your head

[floral mauve]

I doubt he did, plus Day 7 is like a continuation of day 6 and in Sarah's perspective, it didnt change any

[azure bay]

welp, here it's uncertain

the regular ending looks a lot like a good thing

[floral mauve]

In Sarah's perspective she caused the change rather than Bob

[azure bay]

the endings are contradictory

[floral mauve]

ye

technically if Bob's ending is real, that means Owl's plan worked and his memories are back

[azure bay]

Sarah's ending is called "The Alternative"

[floral mauve]

even though Bob's ending seems quite positive with colours

[carmine field]

Well, his memories of Laura and other stuff were what made him unstable, weren't they?

[azure bay]

the big problem is, we have not a slightest idea what was Owl's plan

[floral mauve]

we know that he wants Bob's memory that contains Laura

and thats enough

[floral mauve]

to say this

[azure bay]

but not enough to tell the end goal

[floral mauve]

I never said anything about it

[azure bay]

contradictory endings were a thing since the beginning

even for the cube games

who is getting mad exactly?

[floral mauve]

I guess so, it was like doomer mood, he lost his loved one and didnt really accept it

somewhat twd did help him accepting it while also regaining his memories back

PERHAPS, they want to turn the negative memory in Bob into positive, so its easier to experiment on idk

[azure bay]

I see some people being disappointed with its format and puzzles but not really about the story

that's why I'm asking about those people who don't want it to be canon

[floral mauve]

I quite like it as an individual game

[azure bay]

@carmine field and there are 2 ways out. Either learn to cope (normal ending) or root out the cause (Sarah's ending)

[floral mauve]

not necessarily, but as a RL game, its probably lack of some puzzle difficulties idk

more like a narrative game than puzzle solving game

[azure bay]

personally I find some of its interactivity pretty fun

[floral mauve]

ye

never said it aint fun

me like

[azure bay]

glad it was somewhat adopted by UB

[floral mauve]

||use a stick to bonk the ticket lady||

[azure bay]

I was rather speaking of marking the ticket

[floral mauve]

you got stuck there?

[visual coral]

That's rough, buddy

[visual coral]

So, if side effects of memory extraction include partial or total memory loss, then it could be that extraction of Bob's memories in Theater caused his eventual amnesia that would lead him to the White Door, where Owl could seemingly restore Bob's lost memories while also stealing some. Basically the memories restored in the White Door are not extracted ones but faded ones. But that raises the question if memory extraction really erases memories forever? Unless Owl somehow kept the cube from the police station.

[azure bay]

hmmm

actually I didn't even consider that Owl could take some of Bob's memories for himself

if the memory extraction took place in Theatre for real, then it's fair to assume that they were taking his memories of Laura

all the cubes we took were related to her play

and in TWD they were basically restoring memories of Laura

why did Owl say that these memories belonged to the lake?

as if they were already flushed down into it

did they recollect them?

before TWD

but what did he remember at the police station?

[visual coral]

Bob's memory of Theater is the closest to the "reality" as we can get. I realised that Bob's fever dream could be a metaphor for memory extraction, cause he saw Laura and said that she was leaving him.

[azure bay]

Also got the same idea but I'm not sure. Before TWD I wasn't taking Theatre literally at all

[visual coral]

Which time of a million times he said that r u talking about?

[azure bay]

his lesson for Dale.

"His [Bob's] memories belong to the lake now. Extracting them caused a corrupted soul. One of the 6 stages of the wheel"

[visual coral]

That was in the Theater memory controlled by Owl tho. And that was way after, so for the Owl it was in the past and Bob's memories are in the lake.

The ones that they took in Theater

[azure bay]

no, he was speaking specifically of the cubes Dale took from Bob's head

[visual coral]

But in the "reality" they've took his memories, not Dale

[azure bay]

that's not what matters, I'm asking about the memories belonging to the lake

[terse niche]

The Cavewe can see Dale and Laura transitioning between corrupted and human at the machine.

Paradox is possible to happening in a constant cycle of reentering memory cubes.

Seasons Laura undoes her death and this happens after many events in the games.

Bob is def corrupted. We see it several times. Even after he "backs" to the human state and dont remmember anything.

I know that Dale is meant to become a god and not an asura, but he can be seen as one in Paradox.

[carmine field]

do you mean the deer-headed dale?

[terse niche]

Yep

[carmine field]

actually, that could be his deva form, not asura

The Samsara Wheel in Caroline's book may indicate this

give me a second

[terse niche]

But it's really hard to know what's real or not, but the paradox is to understand that everyone is real. The real Dale (from the movie), the corrupted one, Mr. Stag, etc. But so far really, it might just be in Dale's mind.

I think it's possible it's his Dava form.

We don't know what a Dava is like

[carmine field]

this wheel also appears in the Paradise version of the book

which one is deva, and which one is asura? that is the question
Unless Mr. Owl is a deva, it is likely that the deer represents deva

[terse niche]

I think the deer might be Dava. Considering his position on the wheel, this appears to be Dale's half animal as we see in Paradox. The owl undoubtedly refers to Mr. Owl and we know he is an asura. Considering this is Caroline's book, many things are possible.
1 - Caroline was unable to complete her studies and only knew about the asuras/the special owl
2 - Caroline never wanted to create a Dava or knew that this role would be made by a special asura that is Mr. Owl and at the same time save his son.

On wheels seen in more current times, the wheel positions change and the deer is replaced with "?"

In the cave

theatre

Dale reflected in the part referring to Dava/God in theatre

[carmine field]

yeeeep

[terse niche]

Perhaps Dava is what you achieve by achieving true enlightment (in real Samsara this refers to getting out of the wheel, but in the game it seems to refer to becoming the God)

Mr. Owl talks a lot about Dale reaching a higher state of mind

[carmine field]

that's the point of the journey, I think :v

[terse niche]

Yep

[carmine field]

Any thoughts on the creatures that live in the Lake?

Some of the creatures are surreal, like the mermaid or that colossal beast. I hope these creatures reappear in the mammoth game

Btw, it is interesting that the animals live in the Lake, considering that there is literally a forest down there and that time does not exist.

Perhaps because time does not exist in the Lake, these creatures could be the same as they were thousands or millions of years ago. The fish that appeared in both Paradise and The Cave could be the same creature.

[covert wyvern]

yeah that seems feasible:)

[azure bay]

Dude, I know the games, I know what we see in The Cave. The thing is, we have no idea what really happens there and why. The case is weird. Are they really both human and corrupted at the same time? Or maybe it's temporary corruption transmission from Laura to Dale? Or even a quantum superposition thing caused by indeterministic nature of the elixir? For now, there's next to no evidence to make any of these to stand out.

Mr. Crow and Dale say on multiple occasions that Paradox is Dale's mind. It's not real-real, it's metaphorical at most. It literally what Dale sees with that bulky VR set on his head in The Cave.

Seasons taking place after everything doesn't matter. If it's the same timeline it cancels 2/3 of RL series and Dale's epic story becomes insignificant, worthless and anticlimactic. All this journey of fixing memories and becoming a god is for nothing.

Yes, Bob is occasionally corrupted but when it happens he's technically no human anymore and neither is Laura. They may have "memory" of their recent human forms but that's not enough to make them human.
Corruption in general is established to be a big deal. If you are corrupted you normally need to put one heck of an effort to fix that: time travel in Seasons, bloody rituals in Roots, mental treatment in The White Door, building a body around it in The Past Within.
I agree, Bob going corrupted on 3 different occasions is weird indeed but it's not enough yet to make an exception for him. We are yet to see how exactly he went back to normal after Theatre and Case 23 before saying for sure that it was easy for him (more so before tying in another weird case from The Cave. Weirdness isn't always a connection).

As you said, we don't know how deva look in Rusty Lake, so they may look like asuras. And since Dale is associated with the former and not the latter, they likely have to. The only alternative is that VanderDeer is just human Dale wearing a head he found in the Paradox forest.

I don't say it is

you seem to misunderstand me

I never said Samsara works in RL like in the source material

it's still not deliberate, there are some rules we need to learn

we have a bunch of precedents

that form a pattern

his past, present and future lives

he isn't reborn there

these are just images of the past and the future

what exactly doesn't add up?

it's a part of his present form

it's what Owl looks like now, by default

Crow and Owl are either human-looking entities wearing bird "masks" or bird-looking entities wearing human "masks"

but they are no humans - that's for sure

what do you mean by real?

considering the lake being a place where "time does not exist", it makes sense. But Owl doesn't seem to live outside the time flow.

"Once he was a human, like Dale. A great sacrifice was needed to become something else. But his time is limited, he's about to become a mere fish, thus he needs a successor, the ruler of the lake. For that sake Dale has to continue his journey"

If we stop trusting monologues and notes, there'll be nothing left to rely on

it's garbage in comparison

only through words written or spoken the devs can reliably relay a message to us

there's less freedom of interpretation

less possibility to get the message wrong

There's nothing substantial to disprove that

and there's something substantial to confirm it

but it wasn't, he needed the memories and he needed the prophecy to find out about Dale

somehow the last dinner became the white cube of future memories

It seems to me that without Owl and the memories he's providing, the lake will make the world a horrible place

yes, so what?

I repeat

it's not Owl who'd be lying to Dale

it's the devs who'd be lying to us

I say that written or spoken words are the most reliable way to communicate with us

and the devs are actively using it

what citation?

Paradox, ch2

during Owl's brain swap

you seem to miss the point

it's more like the devs explaining to us what's happening through Owl's words

dude, how else would they make sure that we freaking get the plot?

I repeat

in verbal communication there's less, muuuuuuch less freedom of interpretation

the devs have a set of narrative tools

but verbal ones are the most clear in their arsenal

I need you to understand 1 simple thing

[covert wyvern]

Theories is one of our most active channels!

[azure bay]

Theorists like us who tend to overthink are far and few in between. The vast majority of the player base comes for other reasons than understanding every single nook and cranny of the lore and they bring in the most of money. So in order to make them understand at least the basics of the story, the devs need to bluntly explain them from time to time. And making Owl secretly lie to the protagonist is effectively them lying to those innocent clueless normies they mostly rely on. And that may repel them.

Another important message but a bit less so. More often than not, we DO overthink things. Rusty Lake isn't so much of a big brain franchise we'd like it to be. Sometimes its attention to details leaves much to be desired.

Don't take me wrong, It's still fun to theorize on it but we'd better not to attach ourselves too much to our theories because, chances are, the reality will turn out to be much simpler disproving our theories.

rather the second part. the 1st one, more often than not, we're not the only target of their messages

to be objective, let's speak probabilities

based only on Owl's monologue, it's already considerably more than 50% that he's speaking the truth

hopefully there are messages intended for theorists

Dale's reflection and Owl playing him during the deva-related play indicatethat Dale will become a deva. So he's at least to win something here

I don't think fish serve. More likely than not, he'll be just a normal clueless fish with no understanding of and more so no influence over the universe

why?

but it is exactly the animal stage

Crow is asura

a demon or a demigod, depending on the translator

Owl likely belongs to that stage

Caroline's wheel is another weird thing

it contradicts all the previous imagery

you no longer understand what's the naraka, what's the deva and what's the asura

what we know, Dale is to become a deva via elixir

you did, they are just written in sanskrit

mostly a normal Samsara Wheel with different conditions of transcending beween its realms

we don't really know what Owl is, but I'm making an educated guess that he's no different from Crow

I compare Owl to Crow and Dale. both are having the elixir but also different outcomes

Because Crow only drank it and Dale is taking a long elevator journey to balance the substance of his past life and reach a higher state of consciousness

Owl didn't apparently have such

and just like Crow he only had the elixir

in a weird way

but still no journey visible

so I bet on him being an asura

[grizzled bluff]

@terse niche There's no reason to comment on something that happened two hours ago.

[terse niche]

Ok. No problem. Just...

Well, apparently there's more than one way to become an asura. The game implies that science and magic go hand in hand. So there's the magical elixir (which turned Jacob into Mr. Owl) and the "scientific" (alchemical) elixir, which turned Aldous into Mr. Crow.

[azure bay]

There are many forms of elixir but most of them work pretty much the same and have close ways to be created

For Owl and Crow specifically they are more similar than not

So is for Dale

Here are my reasons

1. Caroline created her elixir by extracting ingredients from memories

2. The same formula has the alchemist bros' initials above it in the book in Paradox short

3. The golden cube in The Cave was created from William's memories of the formula he used in Roots

Just like Caroline did

So i'm sure, the memories can be used as a substitute when you have no lab or knowledge. If Caroline was alive she'd likely produce the green liquid instead

@terse niche

[terse niche]

Yes, the substances inside the memories can be used. The cave hints at this strongly.

In the draw at the wall

The cave also shows how the golden cube is created.

In the book

[azure bay]

(Just in case, I forgot to tell that the GC is a form of elixir too)

Hense the insignia in the book

[terse niche]

Dale, I believe, creates the golden cube somehow during the paradox (we see several hard to undertand moments in the secrets of paradox including geting the golden cube that is the only way we really escape the loop) as his Traveler role (mind traveler or memory traveler) using the substances contained in laura's white and black cubes

[azure bay]

Possibly

Or maybe Dale created it indirectly

Like his mind/soul/what else was needed too

but the one who actually created it was Crow using the machine

[terse niche]

Considering that the blue cube is also part of the formula as seen in the book, it's possible that undoing Laura's death and/or the death of Dale's parents is part of that.

[azure bay]

The blue cube doesn't change the events on its own

all it does is controlling the time flow

theoretically, Dale and Laura could do the changes without it

Like Roses did in TPW

[terse niche]

Hard to know. While I believe in the possibility that everything was going on in Dale and Laura's mind during Paradox, I still think there is some possibility of the loop/paradox being created by going into the same memory/cube over and over again. Dale exits Paradox via the elevator, just as he exits his memory cubes in Birthday and Theater.

Ahhhh how confusing

[azure bay]

no, the last thing isn't true

Birthday and Theatre are cubes legit floating around the lake

As Dale left Paradox, he entered the elevator to reach them and eventually the hotel

and I think Seasons is too about cubes, not Paradox

the state I call semi-corruption Crow was probably poking in The Cave continued for Dale as the GC was created

he started spontaneously flickering between 2 states before embarking

and it was still going as he was getting to each of the cubes he was to revisit

still in the elevator

[terse niche]

Both are possible. It's hard to know

[azure bay]

no, here it's clear as day

Paradox has a clear beginning and a clear end

its end correlates with The Cave

which then goes into Birthday/Theatre which lead to the hotel

1st we had only Birthday/Theatre with a big gap after Case 23

1st Dale was going down in an elevator, then he goes up

thanks to the prophecy in Hotel and the configuration of elevator buttons, we knew that there were 2 different elevators and the one Dale revisited Bday/Theatre in was going to the hotel

[terse niche]

I agree with the part about him going down and then going up in the elevator. What I'm not so sure of is that there isn't cube travel during paradox whereas in Paradox, Birthday and Theater Dale it comes out exactly the same way.

[azure bay]

there is difference

[terse niche]

And it all happens during that lake trip

[azure bay]

but I'll go to it soon

the gap between the elevator trips was later on filled with The Cave

we've finally seen how Dale's journey started

how he got into the pretty much real elevator

which Harvey was using to navigate the hotel back in 1893

the elevator in Bday/Theatre that is

they have the very same sets of buttons

even the -1 one missing

What The Cave did was finally revealing that very -1st floor

another thing The Cave did was introducing the GC

[terse niche]

As for the golden cube, we don't know how it will be used, but based on what is written in the book of the cave (the memories are bot only the key to the past but... also to the future) and the events of The Past Within, the golden cube is the future. A memory that hasn't happened yet, created through the white and black cube and inside it has perhaps the elixir or substance that can transform Dale into a true god

[azure bay]

which connects it to Paradox

[azure bay]

I wouldn't be so sure about "the future part"

because in Paradise it was metaphorical

[terse niche]

I agree with everything but the certainty that there was definitely no cube trip during Paradox.

[azure bay]

Paradox is inside Dale's head, it's pretty much a dream.

[terse niche]

The golden cube is still a strong mystery, but my theory is that it is the future. Now only with more games that appear more it to be sure.

[azure bay]

and the trip Dale took afterwards is real

the elevator is real

the cubes are real

they float around the lake

Dale's semicorruption in the elevator is real

it started only after Dale was disconnected from the machine

after Dale was disconnected from Paradox

except he was still dreaming

the secret ending of Paradox is what Dale sees while the same things take place around him in the reality

[azure bay]

you don't need the GC to contain the future

Owl's white cube from Hotel did just fine

just like Caroline's cubes for Jakob, the GC may not contain Dale's future but rather make it possible

the GC is either the elixir itself or something that can make its consumable form

[terse niche]

Really only with more games to know. I believe the golden cube contains the future, but only RL knows for now what's in that future.

[azure bay]

We've got all the info we need to make a pretty accurate guess

Dale will reach the hotel, somehow become a deva and eventually replace Owl as the ruler of the lake. And also deal with corrupted souls that wander the lake

[terse niche]

Well, you think different and its ok. That's why they are theories

[azure bay]

where do you disagree?

[azure bay]

where am I mistaken here?

[terse niche]

I agree with this part, but I disagree with others. No problem

Also not everything needs an answer. It's the fun of the mystery

[azure bay]

we've got a pretty much clear evidence about the trip

[terse niche]

And I agree with that

[azure bay]

and Paradox may not have even be a thing back when Birthday was made

[terse niche]

Ah, it is very likely that some ideas have changed over time

[azure bay]

no, you need to actually prove retcons

you could always enter cubes no problem

Dale's cubes specifically were in the lake even before the trip

as he said in Case 23 ending

and there was other established evidence before Paradox came out

[carmine field]

It's said many times in the series, such as in TPW epilogue. Even Dale suffered from this effect, considering he stayed half a year inside the Lake and remained intact.

[azure bay]

what are you talking about?

no, they contain realities

and even timelines

yes

and still

rather doors to the realities

The cubes are as real as the reality itself

and the reality is another cube

The Past Within proves this

The Past and The Future are symmetrical

equally real and equally unreal

one both inside the other and outside

in the end it doesn't matter what's bigger or smaller

they have to be

otherwise they can't exist

The Future starts as a legit reality

and nothing changes to it except a cube leading to it is created in The Past

and Laura

she lived through her cubes in the ending

I mean

she canceled her death in Spring

but the actual ending is the aftermath in Winter

I don't understand

[carmine field]

wdym?

[azure bay]

1st Laura dies

kills herself, as seen in her memory in The Cave

then Crow extracts her memory which leads to corruption

then she's captured

then she presumably escapes and enters her cubes

and there' inside the cubes she changes the past

and cancels her death

and lives on inside her cubes happily ever after

the ending

she's alive in Spring

then we see her in winter 1981 alive inside a cube

in the bigger picture she bended the timeline inside her cubes

just like Past Rose could bend the "main" timeline inside the golden cube

the only host reality is the lake where time does not exist

If there were such, Albert would be trying to get there

He's the one who created a golden cube half a century before Owl

if anybody knows anything, it's him

he's the only one who found the way to the outer lake, "where time does not exist and one's soul blossoms"

The Past Within starts in the conditional Future

it's what initially believed to be the host timeline, as you call it

but as the game progresses it becomes incarcerated into a golden cube

without anything changing

it's outside The Past and suddenly it's inside it too

and The Past can manipulate it just as The Future can manipulate The Past

The Past can manipulate the "host" timeline just like the "host" timeline can manipulate The Past

they are equally real and equally unreal

and the ultimate goal is to escape all the cubes, all the realities and reach something akin to nirvana

the place where souls blossom

[carmine field]

Albert has changed a lot as a character. In addition to knowing alchemy, we are now aware that he knows the nature of cubes, corrupted souls and the Lake. He also appears to have some connection with BKM.

He's the mastermind behind The Past Within

[azure bay]

I'd say, it's Rose who has such connection

[carmine field]

It's possible. The MemoryCube recordings are still a little confusing

[azure bay]

||I'm speaking of the secret level in the ||demo

[carmine field]

oh yep

[azure bay]

the room behind ||the blast doors looks like her lab and used the same wall texture||

[carmine field]

I noticed that too. You must be right.

[carmine field]

It is debatable as to how Albert got this knowledge. I don't think it's just through the books of the alchemist brothers. I theorize that bird-like corrupted soul helped him, but I'm very doubtful due to the lack of references to this being in later games

[azure bay]

I didn't expect Albert to know that much too

and it's my complaint to the devs and TPW

but still, it's canon

somehow

[carmine field]

no one expected
but we knew he might have some knowledge about the supernatural because of the masks, alchemy and voodoo

[azure bay]

somehow, he's even cooler than Mr. Owl

I can barely accept it

but it's beyond the point

[carmine field]

at least the masks were confirmed to be magical in TPW. I'm happy with it

[azure bay]

agree, I guess

[carmine field]

I have a doubt. Is the deer that appeared in Paradox a reference to Case 23?

[azure bay]

the Deer that eventually becomes headless is no doubt a reference to Case 23

and this is its head that VanderDeer wears later on

[carmine field]

yeah

Perhaps it could be a subversion of what happened in Case 23. Normal Dale fled, but VanderDeer faced the corrupted soul and decapitated it

[azure bay]

VanderDeer seems Dale's future form

I still have doubts

and I can't explain the logic behind it

[carmine field]

Welcome back

[carmine field]

I agree. Btw, with Dale becoming the Ruler of the Lake, Mr. Owl would end up working for him, right?

What's your conclusion?

[azure bay]

Until he perishes. Before the 1st ARG I was thinking it wouldn't be long

these orders are seemingly redundant

don't forget, The Future was inside The Past

not originally

but it's possible to place one inside the other

The Past was in The Future and The Future was in The Past. And somehow this system was in the lake

[carmine field]

I think 30 years is not much for someone who has lived 200 years 🙃

[azure bay]

there's next to no reasons to consider cubes snapshots

[carmine field]

For that matter, perhaps the memories that Mr. Owl wanted from Bob would be precisely for him to have access to the elixir and prolong his life (and the lives of the other asuras as well)

[azure bay]

By analogy with The Past, cube inhabitants have an idea of normalcy just like we do

and they are able to notice the external changes

and since The Past and The Future can be in sync for an unlimited amount of time, they would notice themselves unable to leave and starving

plus, Laura did live inside her cubes for decades no problem

it's about the butterfly effect, not the time flow. The Past Within clearly shows that the time flows normally both inside the cube and outside it

and occasionally Birthday rolls out on its own with confirmed no interraction from Dale

I mean Rabbit came on his own

mechanically, no. But lore-wise Dale did nothing for him to come

he was just partying

he didn't touch Rabbit

for gameplay reasons, not lore

because it's how every game works. Cube or not and even beyond Rusty Lake. it's you who needs to prove that gameplay is lore

"All that you touch you change" likely refers to burning the candle or setting Harvey free. We change things in one memory and they stay so in the next one.

[azure bay]

this message is one of the clearest

you go back in time, change things, change the past

I don't get this

please paraphrase

Let me explain what I meant

there are 4 cubes

which seem limited to 1 room

and gameplay-wise you need to perform a certain action to move from 1 time point to the next one

But I think it's all pure gameplay. In the reality the worlds inside the cubes aren't limited to 1 room. Arles, Birthday, Paradox - you can go beyond the walls and technically still be "inside" the cube

and, judging by external events like Rabbit coming or by The Past, time flows there too

so Laura just lives inside the reality she created

a normal life

probably with Bob

We just skip all this

and just see her in winter 1981 alive and happy

funny enough, all 4 memories Laura travels through are likely still inside a single cube

because it's how they were extracted

all in 2 packages

what's even funnier, William's memories are there too

and probably all the past lives before William

[visual coral]

Is the black cube that Bob leaves in the police station his memory of being in the police station or just a random one?

[azure bay]

no clue

[visual coral]

dammit

[carmine field]

There's something I'd like to discuss a little bit, even though it's not that important.

When Mr. Owl talks to Dale in Paradox after we give him the present mind, he says "Dale, we meet again". This means they have met and interacted previously. But when?

Events that are possible candidates for being the first time Dale and Mr. Owl met:

• Case 23 (Chapter 1): We know that Mr. Owl made Laura's body disappear, but the fact that he didn't show himself to the player makes me doubt if this really would be the first time.
• The Mill: After Dale has finished the test, Mr. Owl brings him to the Chapel. Dale was asleep, though.
• Birthday: Mr. Owl sends 9-year-old Dale a letter, but I don't think that counts. Maybe it didn't even happen in the original timeline.
• Theatre: Possibly the moment they met! Even though it's not identical to the events shown in Theatre (because it was the 'theater of Dale's mind'), it's possible that Mr. Owl was the presenter on the original timeline as well.
• The Cave: In one of the murals, we see that Mr. Owl, in a diver's suit, holds the cubes of the corrupted souls to prevent them from attacking Dale until he enters the white room. Still, there doesn't seem to have been any interaction between them.

[ebon aspen]

Id say its nodding specially to theatre, but i do like to think owl had his t-pose moment in mind while saying that

[terse niche]

I think Harvey and Mr. Owl are normal presences in Dale's life. Mr. Crow is his grandfather so it wouldn't be unimaginable.

[carmine field]

I wouldn't be so sure about that, because if that's true, Mr. Owl would have found Dale much sooner.

Also, Dale could have recognized his grandfather in Case 23

[terse niche]

In conquering the date in Roots they are already informed of Dale's birth

[carmine field]

Yes, but it doesn't make sense to have that written in that context, when the game has nothing to do with Dale.

In my view, it seems that the intention of that easter egg was exclusively to give the box code answer in The Cave

[terse niche]

The grandfather is absurdly like Mr. Crow and he looks very much alive with a shot in the head (he keeps rocking in the chair and holding the glass very different from Dale's parents) and knew very well what to do on Birthday. We also don't know if he doesn't recognize his grandfather or if he doesn't recognize maybe it's because he must be dead or different stages of age that we see Mr. Crow look. Mr. Crow is also present at the Theater for example.

Mr. Crow is quite recognizable in the games.

Well, Rusty Lake secrets tend to be canon.

[carmine field]

I know he looks like Mr. Crow so much. I've already put the appearances side by side, and they are identical. But we need to consider that, at that time, Rusty Lake was releasing games practically on a monthly basis. I'm leaning towards the idea that the assets have been reused for now due to lack of evidence.

[terse niche]

I think Rusty Lake is very careful with their games and they know very well the weight of the lore in their games and they always give us pieces of that lore in each game. Reusing Mr. Crow as Dale's grandfather would be a pretty bad thing to create a fuss. It's possible of course, but I don't think Rusty Lake would do that.

If they used Rose take care of Laura, creating a planned family controlled by Mr. Crow I think it would be quite possible

I fully believe that Dale was planned and used his whole life. Like Laura.

The 2 key people

I think it's possible that Dale's fate may have changed over the years. Because I have to agree, in one of the oldest games, The Cave (the mill**), Mr. Owl writes a letter to Mr. Crow looking like he didn't know him before, but in Roots, which came much later, we see that they are told of Dale's birth.

[carmine field]

I don't know if that's the case. Read the letter that Mr. Owl sent to Mr. Crow sometime before The Mill.

[terse niche]

Yes, exactly. Which is why plans with Dale may have changed over time. This letter is from an older game, which contradicts a lot of things from future games.

[carmine field]

"I might have found" - He wasn't sure it was the person he was looking for.

[carmine field]

The Mill was released in September 2015
Birthday was released in February 2016

[terse niche]

This was also the first time that Mr. Owl appears in the games, he was also quite different. He and Mr. Crow sported that animal look and the same black coat and that changed with later games.

[carmine field]

Still, that doesn't mean they've retconned the lore. The grandfather's appearance isn't enough to invalidate a letter written by Mr. Owl

[terse niche]

So that's why I think the plans for Dale at Rusty Lake have changed over time. A lot contradicts this idea of Dale being an outsider, like them being told of his birth in Roots, Dale's grandfather being a lot like Mr. Crow, the letters from Mr. Owl and Harvey to Dale in Birthday who imply they are acquaintances, etc.

In the Cave, Dale is already know as the traveller

[carmine field]

Even the letter about Laura suggests that Mr. Crow and Mr. Owl might know her.

"the young woman", instead of "a young woman"

[terse niche]

In these letters Laura also seems like a complete stranger. Until then we never knew her name. We learned her name only in future games

[carmine field]

I'm not arguing that everything was planned, but the devs purposely left these openings vague.

[carmine field]

Laura didn't have a official name at the time, I suppose.

Her name was revealed in Theatre, if I'm not wrong

[terse niche]

Yeah, I don't really remember when Laura's name is revealed, but it was a long time after the first few games.

I guess you're right. I think it was in her letter to Bob right?

[carmine field]

Yep

I don't think it's impossible that Mr. Crow is Dale's grandfather, but we haven't had any confirmation so far.

What confuses me the most is the scene from 1966. Mr. Owl actually knew about Dale somehow, not being restricted to just the scene at the end of Hotel.

What if young Dale had been watched by the RL staff? It is possible that even Harvey was watching him, but the RL staff ended up losing sight of Dale after some point.

[terse niche]

Nice catch. Dale was born in 1971 and Mr. Owl had already made this message in 1966. Considering that the globe shows the past in the hotel, it helps to further confirm how Dale was planned from his birth.

But yeah, I could still be wrong. Maybe they didn't know exactly who Dale was, but someone they wanted to be a new God and it turned out to be Dale.

Perhaps they only knew that he was supposed to be the grandson of Mr. Crow or third generation Vandermeer, etc.

I still think he was always planned, but I don't rule out those possibilities

[carmine field]

Dale was born in 1930. Birthday was in 1939. Mr. Owl's scene was in 1966. Birthday's prologue happened in 1972

[terse niche]

Oh yeah sorry you are right

[frosty wolf]

wasnt her name revealed in Cave? i dont think laura had written her name on the letter

[carmine field]

oh true

just checked it

[frosty wolf]

laura moment

[visual coral]

There is one other possibility. Since Paradox is a loop, they could've met in said loop many times before

[carmine field]

It makes sense

[azure bay]

@carmine field @terse niche Grandpa and Mr. Crow are not identical-identical. They have minor differences in design that may be gamechangers.

1. Aldous was always bold as an egg, even when he looked younger in Roots and Theatre. Grandpa, on the other hand, has some hair left.
2. Grandpa's skin tone is considerably lighter than any version of Aldous has.
3. Grandpa's outfit is more colorful than anything in Crow's wardrobe.

[azure bay]

You seem to have no scope of the releases. There was not much time between games back then. Arles, Harvey's Box, Case 23, The Mill, and yes, Hotel - all were coming out once a month (and Birthday came out 2 months after Hotel which isn't much either).

The Mill specifically sets the foundation for Hotel. It introduces Mr. Owl and mentions corrupted souls he has created. But funny enough, Hotel was in mind even earlier. The soul that attacked Dale was Mr. Deer, and the box of cigars in Harvey's Box implies its connection to the parrot pretty early.

Hotel, on the other hand, organically foreshadows Birthday. It shows a prophecy of Dale's elevator journey and teases Mr. Rabbit (not even speaking of the secret code).

What I'm saying, these 3 games that supposedly contraict one another not only came out within 3 months but are also tightly connected thematically. There's next to no room for a retcon. Even the Hotel prophecy.

If you think of it critically, what could Owl really learn from the cube? Only that his successor would be a middle aged man wearing a brown suit. No name, no occupation, no biography. And all his interference in Dale's Birthday (which may or may not include Mr. Crow pretending to be Dale's grandpa) is limited to memories he altered right before Dale revisits them. If there were originally Owl's blue cube machine, Dale would have fixed everything right there and then, in 1939, with no need to go back from 1972.

What's more, even in Birthday Owl speaks to Dale from future 1966. It's not only closer to 1971 than to 1939 but it's also the time when Owl's plan concerning Laura and Dale was arguably in full swing.

[azure bay]

it was pretty late in The Cave

after Roots and Vanderbooms

the Vanderbooms were admittedly introduced retroactively. The devs said so

Another thing they said, the main story was created as soon as they acknowledged success of their games.

[vivid bridge]

I'm sure they knew her name was Laura when they named Dale

[azure bay]

it wasn't the case back in 2015

[carmine field]

As for skin color, I always thought it was similar to Mr. Crow in The Cave

[azure bay]

Birthday: #ECD8D1
The Cave: #A69793

@carmine field

[carmine field]

The cave is still dark, isn't it?

But maybe you are right

[azure bay]

I'll make a global comparison eventually

not today

will grade Crow appearances

Grandpa will have the lightest tone

but I'm curious about the differences between the others

[carmine field]

Can you compare with this one?

[azure bay]

it's seemingly lighter

apparently they are very close

[carmine field]

yeah, even if that's not enough to prove anything

[vivid bridge]

I think its supposed to be him. I mean, why would they use the same design if its not the same guy

I don't think he is the grandpa, though. Like its just Mr. Crow observing Dale by posing as his grandpa or whatever but he isn't Dale's actual grandpa

[azure bay]

Syeddabanu agrees with my theories of the lake multiverse

which means that Mr. Crow would probably struggle infiltrating Vandermeers because they know their grandpa

unless the visual differences I pointed out is him successfully adopting real granpda's appearance but still being unable to fool the player

that's just not how The Past Within works

nor how Seasons work

I ignore nothing

other games don't openly contradict this view

it doesn't, it just finally shows how everything works

cubes are doors into certain points in the alternative past

[vivid bridge]

its inconsistent. Sometimes the memories extend past the one room so the cube itself is more of a gateway to the memory but in TPW, the rooms are literally inside the cube

[azure bay]

so is technically Paradox

[vivid bridge]

well paradox is not even a memory, its like a simulation inside Dale's mind

[azure bay]

but you can leave the coundaries of the cube and still be technically inside

[azure bay]

it's based on faithful cube mechanics

just like we can brighten Birthday

we can brighten Paradox

it's a dream with a memory of that dream in the end

if you change a dream, you change its cube

[vivid bridge]

yeah but since the whole thing is a dream or simulation or whatever, the cube at the end of each run is also just part of that dream. It's not a real cube, it just uses the aesthetic of it

[azure bay]

and yet it's confirmed to at least partially work like a real cube

and possibly it works exactly like a real cube

why?

there is

it happens exactly while Dale is connected to the machine in The Cave

and even a bit after

it wasn't

it's Mr. Crow sustaining himself and launching Dale's journey

for the 1st time we witness a moment of his and Mr. Owl's weakness

that they are mortal

which they nomally hide

[vivid bridge]

yeah but its usually pretty obvious whether a game is in a cube or not

well I was always opposed to that idea anyways

[azure bay]

but The Past Within eventually confirms that even THE reality is a cube and works exactly like The Past

and it's at the same time above and below The Past

and because of that nobody can know if there even is the "host" reality besides the lake

yes, but that's not all

[vivid bridge]

I still don't see how you come to that conclusion

[azure bay]

because copying/tearing off The Future from that reality is for me a bigger leap than saying that all cubes work similarly

plus, Albert goes for the lake, not the "real reality"

[vivid bridge]

we literally see the future lab getting put into a golden cube

[azure bay]

and that changes literally nothing for FRose

the room is completely the same

there was no door visible from the start so none disappeared because of this transition

let me explain

I usually have to shift to paradigms of my opponents

plus this one of mine is pretty new even for me

when I'm saying that The Cave is not a cube I mean that Mr. Crow didn't take his memory to reenter it and change something

but technically I still believe that it's inside some cube

either within a different cube or directly in the lake

technically

but it's not just a cube

primarily Paradox is a dream

that features a memory of itself

that creates a nesting doll

because inside said memory you also find a cube

and all that takes place in some mental space that likely belongs to Dale

[frosty wolf]

if the light and dark differences from both Birthday and Cave (like syeddabanu said (that the cave is dark)) are what make the skin tones hard to confidently say which is which then i could say that whenever Aldous appears in The Cave he will always be perferably darker (even outside the cave in natural light) than the supposed grandpa back in Birthday as Birthday could have been illuminated with a lightbulb (similar to Seasons) but we dont see one as we cant look up in Birthday so Aldous could possibly be the grandpa? But...

[frosty wolf]

these points can be correct as well

quoting syeddabanu "I don't think it's impossible that Mr. Crow is Dale's grandfather, but we haven't had any confirmation so far."

[azure bay]

I compared The Cave to birthday because I was told to. In other games at least before the redesign it's still darker than in Birthday

Case 23, Theatre, Roots

but apparently not The Cave intro

[frosty wolf]

yea

[terse niche]

They are eerily familiar. Also, Rusty Lake always leaves subtle clues and I think there just has to be a good reason for the grandfather to be identical to Aldous

[frosty wolf]

only the grandpas' eyes and hair are different..

[terse niche]

Many appearances by Mr. Crow he presents different eyes or closed eyes

[frosty wolf]

mhm

[terse niche]

The family names are very similar and are directly linked to the game's story. Vandermeer means from the lake and Vanderboom means from the tree

We know the entire Vanderboom family was planned, why not the Vandermeers?

[floral mauve]

u got my theory here which is what I kinda believe, however Owl's letter in the Mill wont make sense

they should have known Dale for the entire time

not found

[terse niche]

We also see that while Dale's parents are basically ragdolls, the grandfather keeps rocking in the chair and holding the cup with a headshot and he just knows what to do when Dale hands him a gun.

I really don't know how to explain it, but there are so many things that point out that Dale was always planned.

[floral mauve]

you could say fate but they had 0 idea neither until case 23

[floral mauve]

this part is in his distorted memory

[terse niche]

Until then, it can be said that anything is a manipulation of memory. What can be trusted is what we see in these memories. And we see Dale go through absurd situations outside of these cubes

[floral mauve]

no, there is an extent of those

Birthday and Theatre are certainly memories

However, after tpw and stuff, the entire timeline universe is a cube floating in the lake

but ye, the cubes inside each timeline still belong to someone

[terse niche]

While we have this letter which I agree with implies that Dale is an unknown, but we also have William being informed of Dale's birth (by Harvey I believe). This happens in The Date achievement, during the Winter of 1930 in Rusty Lake: Roots. And in the northern hemisphere, it matches with the Dale birthday 12/18/1930.

Or 18/12/1930

[frosty wolf]

*what if...*the birthdate was only just an achievement? and not for William? what if?

[terse niche]

As I said, many secrets and achievements tend to be canon.

Of course I can't be sure, but it's totally possible.

[frosty wolf]

(like the Harvey one back in Paradise)

[terse niche]

Harvey is also used as a messenger parrot in Roots (in normal gameplay).

The whole elixir creation is a secret and is linked to achievements

What are you referring to with Harvey in Paradise?

I think it's really cool how Harvey is present even in Paradise

He is quite old

And it's also only found in a secret

Although I have a theory that Harvey was never a human, only time will tell for sure.

[frosty wolf]

oh, just what you said now- the achievement. and yes, Harvey is quite old and mysterious, as we dont know too much about his backstory (as the earliest form of Harvey we get chronologically is his bird form)

[terse niche]

Yes. It is present in most games. Most as an animal, usually in a secret like asura. Never as a human.

We know for a secret that it seems that he is the one we play with in Underground Blossom, but unfortunately the idea that Harvey was always present in Laura's life is old.

[frosty wolf]

what do you mean by old?

[terse niche]

That Harvey has been with Laura even since Seasns.

It is not new information.

[frosty wolf]

indeed

[terse niche]

Seasons*

[frosty wolf]

hopefully we get more games with harvey in it, and preferably focused on harvey's story

[terse niche]

Perhaps we get more information from him on Underground Blossom? We've had the opportunity to play as Harvey before in the Rusty Lake Hotel, but nothing special has been revealed. By the way, we only know it's him thanks to Birthday's secret and we see his asura form.

I could be wrong, but I think it was on Birthday that we first saw Harvey's asura form.

I mean I think it's him

[frosty wolf]

perhaps? but i think UB will mosly try to focus on Laura, cause its kind of about her childhood.
and dont forget harvey's box..we also play as harvey and see his shadow

[terse niche]

Oh true

I believe it will be focused on Laura's life as well, but perhaps from Harvey's perspective?

[frosty wolf]

yeah

but usually in games where we play as a specific character we dont get much information on ourselves from that game, even if its from our perspective

[frosty wolf]

oh and also mr. owl's "thank you" but its very vague

[terse niche]

Yeah

[azure bay]

Are you serious? Vandermeer is no more similar to Vanderboom than Johnson is to Robinson

[terse niche]

In this case, it is definitely not a coincidence.

[azure bay]

Man, these are just literal names

Of the tree

And of the lake

In dutch

And Eilanders are Islanders

[terse niche]

Names of people involved in a huge, planned scheme.

[azure bay]

Yes, but this doesn't justify Vanderbooms having any connection to Vandermeers. Or that scheme being planned by Owl and not just the devs

Laura is Vanderboom just because she was born from a tree. Which doesn't make any sense for any of her ancestors

[terse niche]

They have a connection.

I'm not saying it's for sure, but it's not a throwaway hypothesis by any means.

[azure bay]

And Dale will rule the Lake

[azure bay]

They don't have to be connected by blood

[terse niche]

But it is possible that they are

[azure bay]

The only connection they need to make sense of the story is narrative

[azure bay]

Never denied that

But for now that's a theory

[terse niche]

The only thing that can rule out the idea that Dale's grandfather is Mr. Crow is it darker on the cave than on the birthday?

[azure bay]

We are all aware of similarities between Crow and grandpa but objectively it's still not enough to convince some of us.

Ok, the eyes are inconsistent even between confirmed appearances of Crow. But what is consistent between them is Crow always being bold as an egg, never wearing anything more colorful than grey, never wearing glasses and never acting that childish.

Dale not recognizing Mr. Crow as his grandpa in Case 23 is also quite a strong evidence. Yes, it's not 100%, but already slightly more than 50%. You still need to overthink to shove it away.

Grandpa doesn't even say "you know what to do" which would destroy all the doubts

[terse niche]

We see that many things that involve people in this scheme are not consciences. Even Bob was used in all this. So it doesn't seem absurd to me that they have similar names and these names are very convenient in their role in this scheme.

[azure bay]

But man, these names are no way similar, that's just a common prefix for dutch names

[terse niche]

Mr. Crow takes on various appearances and ages. The difference in the eyes is the only thing that sets Mr. Crow in The Cave absolutely everything else is identical.

[azure bay]

I'm even speaking of the eyes

I'm speaking of hair

Even in younger forms Crow is completely bold

[terse niche]

The traits is identical

[azure bay]

Which could alternatively mean either a shameless asset reuse during a rushed development or Crow simply masquerading to be Dale's grandpa for the sake of the memory

Because I don't get a single Crow vibe from that old geaser

[terse niche]

It's possible, but we know that Rusty Lake rarely explicitly says that that gentleman in the game is Mr. crow. We can always recognize him not because the game says he is, but because the man looks like him.

[azure bay]

In other games he at least transforms

[terse niche]

Well, this man, shot in the head, is still rocking in his rocking chair and holding his drink. Total contrast to Dale's parents. He also knew exactly what to do when Dale hands him the gun.

[azure bay]

Not convincing

[terse niche]

He had 0 questions why Dale would give him a gun.

He says "I'm ready" before Mr. Rabbit break the door.

He clearly knew what was going to happen and how Mr. Crow always says "you know what to do"

[azure bay]

Because Dale tried to warn everyone. The only difference, grandpa was the only one crazy enough to take the kid seriously.

Father even asked afterwards how did Dale know

[terse niche]

How is this hypothesis more likely than the grandfather is Mr. Crow???

What gives you the impression that Dale's grandfather would be "crazy" to believe in a child?

[azure bay]

We have a precedent of Dale saying something and us not heari g

[terse niche]

Where? When?

[azure bay]

Apparently in Case 23 he straight asked corrupted Bob for his memories

Which was revealed in The White Door

[terse niche]

And how does that mean that grandfather was convinced by Dale to shoot someone??

[azure bay]

That on its own doesn't

But granpa is the most relaxed person in the room and later on dives into childish madness

[terse niche]

Does it mean that grandfather is identical to Mr. Crow is absurd, but Dale talking to his grandfather convincing him in seconds to shoot a person, something we never see happen is the most likely?

[azure bay]

Grandpa is crazy

He cheers his shot like a child

[terse niche]

I may be the calmest person in the world, but I wouldn't think it natural for a guy with a rabbit head to destroy my door with a tommy gun.

[azure bay]

Crow has seen worse and he's always reserved

[terse niche]

Exactly. Because the grandfather is Mr. crow

[azure bay]

But grandpa isn't

"Boom! ha-ha!" Isn't solething you'd expect Crow to say

Period

[terse niche]

So the grandfather is Mr. Crow.

[azure bay]

No, that's not confirmed

And there are many evidence against that

[terse niche]

There's nothing that absolutely guarantees it, but there's nothing that says it doesn't either.

[azure bay]

That's called a theory

Grandpa can be Crow

But we objectively have no reason to be sure

[terse niche]

Exactly. It's a theory. It is you who are simply stating that he can't be Mr. Crow.

[azure bay]

I do but that's not my message

I say why exactly you can't be sure

And even if he is Crow, that still doesn't mean that Vanderbooms and Vandermeers are blood related because Birthday is 1st and foremost an altered memory

Altered even before Dale stepped inside

The machine, the snow globe, probably Harvey's postcard

Owl's letter

These items help Dale to fix his memory

Which wouldn't have needed fixing if Dale had them to save the day back in 1939

[azure bay]

In Rusty Lake cubes have to be exact representation of reality, even though they are called memories

The Past Within

cubes can be altered

but it's limited to natural laws

it is initially

Owl can convince his other-self to change the play in order teach Dale a lesson about samsara but he can't make Dale a president out of blue

no, he can

and it's being changed all the time

but it's limited to common sense