🤔｜theories

[steel idol]

To escape his current state I think was what he said

Return to his past state?

[azure bay]

He said nothing about elixir

[steel idol]

Do I have the wrong game?

Lemme check real quick

[azure bay]

"this substance from my past life is my only chance to escape this state"

He's talking of the pistol, likely from hotel

Cause it's missing

[steel idol]

The substance

Not elixir

[azure bay]

And the note is left near the chest it was in

[steel idol]

Whoops

Random thought, does that coin have any significance that you know of?

[carmine field]

The coin appears to be just a key

An unconventional key, but still a key

I don't know if there's any symbolism behind it

maybe there is

[floral mauve]

an obvious one lets say

[steel idol]

I’ll go search the channel rq to see if there’s been any postulates

[floral mauve]

religious symbol

[steel idol]

Go study

[floral mauve]

Charon coin

thats for the funeral cases

however, the point of coin in The Lake is still uncertain

[carmine field]

I didn't know about this, thanks for the info

[steel idol]

#🤔｜theories message

[floral mauve]

we discussed this before

certainly

[steel idol]

Elaborate?

#🤔｜theories message

[floral mauve]

so Charon is the guide for the souls, and you need to pay him a coin so he guide you in the boat to pass the styx river

ferryman

In greek mythology

[steel idol]

Ah, thought you were referencing rl, not Greek

I’m decently familiar with Greek stuff

[floral mauve]

if u meant RL, then funeral ritual is reasonable to include the coin as a part of the tradtion

tbh I am not familiar with european funeral traditions

actually I am not familiar with any funeral traditions at all, maybe thats a good thing

[steel idol]

Hmm

Europe is Christian/catholic in history

Probably not very money oriented

I’m gonna go try to Google and see how reliable it seems

[floral mauve]

welp, no idea about how RL works

in terms of their traditions

apparently its a mixture

[steel idol]

So, couple different sources agree, so probably accurate

No coins, body preparation and giving physical back to the earth, soul leaves on third day…. Yada yada yada

Interesting point, not really related is that bodies left by suicide were not historically cared for at all because it was spiteful to god to kill yourself, etc

Does body corruption have anything to do with cs?

Also was originally a ptsd med for veitnam vets, possibly coping with ancestral memories?

Bit late but seemed interesting

[floral mauve]

wont take that original approach, I believe it was a common antidepressant backthen

[steel idol]

It is quite common as both, lemme look at years for seasons

Seasons is in Europe correct?

Prozac was approved in the uk in 1989, seasons is 1964 to 1981

Lemme go play through seasons really quick

[floral mauve]

nope

the year doesnt help at all

its confirmed to be contradicting

[steel idol]

Do tell

[floral mauve]

so we know that RL doesnt follow real life time period

like 100%

[steel idol]

Okay, so ignore that

[steel idol]

Lack of date makes figuring current popular usage hard, but I was slightly wrong about Prozac being originally used for PTSD, was used for SSRI functions then gained popularity with PTSD applications

I’ll assume it’s just an antidepressant

[floral mauve]

Most likely

[plain token]

in paradox:did aldous,jacob and William use dale to infinity extract memories?

Or rather the same memories again and again

[bright parrot]

Maybe they were not extracting memories

They were already in Lake

And most probably paradox is not based on memories
It may contain fragments

[azure bay]

Paradox is about preparing Dale for the journey

[pale hatch]

This is actually the most interesting thing I've ever read

[azure bay]

which one?

[royal notch]

I just realized that the entirety of TPW is based on the fact that Albert gets knowledgeable about the Lake, cubes and corrupted souls.

[azure bay]

the question is, what's the source of said knowledge?

[royal notch]

Exactly the reason i put that point there.

Someone should have told him something, or at least giving some trails.

[azure bay]

he probably had some knowledge of William

some could come from James but not much

some could come from future Rose

after all, he was damn certain she's to help him from 1984

[royal notch]

Maybe he was sure just because of filial love, already indirectly knowing that her daughter would help him. The fact is, we don't know how time process in the game, if there's an original past, if it is present the law of causality... The end seems to suggest an end to the story itself.

[carmine field]

I have a feeling it might have something with that corrupted soul from Roots

[azure bay]

That's not all, how did he know there'd be the right level of technology in 1984?

How did he know she'd have access to it and competence to operate it?

How did he know she'd survive till then?

[royal notch]

Oh, right, the note!

A time travel or a message from the Future is needed, then!

Wait. Actually, it could be more simple than we think. What could stop FRose from extracting more than a memory? Maybe she used the same device to interact with Albert in a memory where he was still alive, instructing him on creating his own cubical device. And giving him the knowledge necessary. Then, Albert gave it to her 17-year-old daughter, while in the Future Rose just exchange memory inside the device.

[azure bay]

she could

except 1 thing

the 002C is a prototype and 018B is the latest inventions, according to steam cards

[royal notch]

We don't know where everything starts, right?

The Future device could be invented after the Past one, but the Past one may be invented through the medium of the Future one. A nice paradox, if we consider the time process as cyclical.

If the process is linear, then there's a problem. More than one.

On another hand, maybe Albert got his knowledge from his soul friend, like 7810 suggested.

[azure bay]

the past one is the prototype, it has to come before not only temporaly but logically

[royal notch]

It's not necessary, if the time is cyclical.

[azure bay]

there's no chronoclasms in RL time travel system

all the timeline changes so far are real changes

there was no cactus in Seasons initially

Laura from the future had to come and plant it

so there was a beginning (no cactus)

and an end (cactus planted)

[royal notch]

I don't agree those being the same plant. Why Laura needed to add an etiquette to it and change its location between fall 1971 and winter 1981?

[azure bay]

I'm not even speaking of Case 23

[royal notch]

I'm not understanding what you want to say, then.

[azure bay]

in Seasons there was no cactus

in the whole timeline

then Laura came

and planted it

and it exists

in the whole timeline

the cactus' existence didn't cause cactus' existence in the past

[azure bay]

and this, I don't take the games that literally, the devs placed the same cactus in a gameplay-driven environment of roughly the same location. And even if I have to take it literally, it's not a big stretch that cactus changed the location and got the etiquette

[royal notch]

In fact, not taking the game too literally, i assume those cactuses being different, justifying it as asset reusage.

Also, except TPW, we have never seen clear time-travel-alterations in the actual reality. Every alteration can be seen in the memory only.

And still, in TPW said alteration could be caused only because of specific technology.

We don't know if ANY alteration of memories can cause alteration on reality itself (if there is one: i'm still in that existential crisis. ).

[azure bay]

it's not just reuse, it's groth stage is consistent to the time period

[azure bay]

TPW means that everything was time travel in a way

[azure bay]

not true

[azure bay]

this is the way

nothing else makes sense

not anymore

the future is just another cube

and tech has nothing to do with this

[royal notch]

We don't know if in Birthday Dale really saved his parents, nor if in Theatre partecipated for real in those plays specific for him. In seasons, all times seems to be only memories.

[azure bay]

they all have to work in the same way, everything else are overcomplications that are against Occam's razor

if we have real living people in The Past of TPW

we have real living people in Birthday

because creating real living people is too much no matter tech or magic

[royal notch]

But the alteration of memories would be an easy way to create infinite, different realities to choose for. For example, the enlighteneds could just extract William's memory and then modify it in order to create a reality where he's still alive, avoiding all the problems of the main timeline. It's just "too easy" with such a colossal power.

[azure bay]

and that's ok because it still requires knowledge, means and effort

Laura's got a happy ending because she had those

Dale's parents got one because Dale had those

and there is no main timeline

there's a timeline that we the audience follow

The Future is just another cube

[royal notch]

But it's too much, even if only the enlighteneds know these secrets. Having the complete freedom of changing the past could lead to great disorders. Why didn't Jakob go back to save his mother? Why didn't Aldous for his brother? Why didn't they to help Harvey? Every problem would be simply erased like chalk on a blackboard.

[azure bay]

because that won't be their timeline

Caroline needed to die so Owl could exist

William needed to die so Crow would exist

even if they do all that they'd only create worse timelines and cause many problems for their other-selves

so it's not only useless

it's harmful

and even if that's not the case, even if there's a plot hole, TPW makes no sense in any other way

Rose was working for owl

any tech she's got is technically owned by him

[royal notch]

We don't know if Mr Owl is still present in 1984. I'm going to stop here because i feel we're entering in ARG knowledge.

[azure bay]

he's present in 2000

on TWD website

mentioned by Dr. Hoorn as if he was still alive

plus, the cubical device isn't something completely new

it had hundreds of iterations

and dozens in The Past

their numbers

002C and 018B

they are hexadecimal numbers

44 and 395

[royal notch]

What are hexadecimal numbers?

[azure bay]

we normally use decimal system 1,2,3,4...,9,10

there are others in math used in machinery

binary is 1,10,11,100,101...

and hexadecimal 1,2,3,4...8,9,A,B,C,D,E,F,10

16 digits

A = 10, B = 11, F = 15

and 0 is the 16th

[royal notch]

I still don't get it, but i trust you. Long story short, you're telling me that "002C" means "44" and "018F" means "395"?

[azure bay]

I can explain again

these are just numbers that use more digits

normally we use 10

from 0 to 9

the hex uses 16

from 0 to 9 + 6 extra from A to F

in dec 9+1=10

in hex 9+1=A

A(hex)=10(dec)

the numbers are the same

they're just counted in different quantities

dec counts in tens

hex counts in sixteens

[royal notch]

I though trigonometry was hard...

[azure bay]

it's actually easy

just thinking outside the decimal box

[royal notch]

I understood the sistem, i think i don't know how to use it to "decipher".

[azure bay]

there are mathematical operations but nowadays it's done by using converters

If I'm not wrong hex exists mostly because it's easy to translate binary

where 1(bin)=1(dec) 10(bin)=3(dec) and 11(bin)=4(dec)

digital tech uses binary

the memory on your phone is a big set of slots that either are charged (1) or discharged (0)

it can't count in any other way

[royal notch]

[azure bay]

yes

wait

018b is 395

018F let me think

399, I think

[royal notch]

Big numbers. I wonder when Albert got the time to create 44 different devices!

[azure bay]

maybe he counted every little change as a new version

[carmine field]

Do you know how I can find this line?

I didn't follow the ARG, just some summaries

[azure bay]

it used to be on TWD webside.
https://mentalhealthandfishing.com/Interview_DR_HOORN.pdf

now it's gone

use Wayback machine

[carmine field]

Okay

[royal notch]

I forgot why we fell in talking how many devices are there...

[carmine field]

found it

Thanks

[azure bay]

because 002C was already working and some of later versions have to be in Owl's possession

even IF it's all because of the tech

which, I believe, isn't

even tech can't bend reality that hard unless it's already bendable on its own

[royal notch]

Why not? Maybe that tech is that strong. The point is on having to choose what is "too much", which is subjective. Like i, before, found too much such an easiness in memory alteration, now you are finding too much for a technology to be able to bend reality (i don't want to offend here, i just wanted to do a parallelism.).

[azure bay]

technology by definition uses existing laws

but ok

let's suppose it's strong

how on earth is it still working when the black cube is taken out?

and, what's more, when the 018F is destroyed

[royal notch]

But those cubes don't exist in real life. We don't know with which laws those can interact with each other.

[royal notch]

I don't get the question, you said yourself it exploded.

[royal notch]

After all, these are videogames.

[azure bay]

What does the cubical device do?

Make me a list based on your observations

[royal notch]

It seem to interact with a memory inside it, even modifying it. Though these alteration evidently changes the reality in them. Since we saw similar alterations before, whose consequences in the reality seems to be too strong, i believed in them not being real outside the memory itself. TPW shows the contrary, but the alterated memories are both inside a specific device. Just that.

[azure bay]

It doesn't change the reality directly

There's no observable butterfly effect

Except for the flickering CS which doesn't last long

Not the changes to the memory change the reality

The changes made by the memory do

The memory sends Albert's substances into the future from outside

You don't take them from 018f

You put them into 002c

Thus they feel big

And you do that when 018f is already broken

[royal notch]

I don't understand why you keep taking 018F back. I'm not saying there's a connection between the 2 devices.

[azure bay]

I'll start over The Past and The Future are completely symmetrical

Both are inhabited by sentient people with the same idea of normalcy

They are not sims

They are real and alive

It's not 018f that makes them like that

Because they stay like that even when 018f is inoperable anymore

And here comes the heavy artillery

The future is just another cube

placed in 002c

Which maintains connection with the future

The golden cube is a powerful artifact

But if it's fake it wouldn't be able to bend the real future

[royal notch]

I think i wasn't clear about my definition of "real". Every memory by itself is real, even when modified, the characters living in them are real, like Dale's parents, because that's their reality (they don't know their universe is a cube in another, future (or past, in the golden cube's case) reality). But they are real WITHIN the memory itself. Alteration to them don't cause alteration in the outside reality because those cubes are just memories, not connected with the flux of time anymore. But in TPW these memories actually cause a modifications to the outside world. 2 realities interacting for the first time with each other (first one on the other, then swap). And i believe this difference resides in the specific technologic used.

[azure bay]

They have to be complete realities

Because the inhabitants question those changes

And because the real future acts in the very same way

Just another cube

[royal notch]

Which is created later, though.

[azure bay]

Doesn't matter. It's still the same reality. The Past has just created a portal into it

[royal notch]

I'll try to explain. Usually we don't see that if a memory gets altered, it alters the world outside it. I believe it is because, while the cube has his own reality, the outside world has his other own, since the reality inside the cube isn't a reality, because it has ALREADY happened (or will happen, in the golden cube's case). In TPW, thanks to the devices, in and out are both being real AT THE SAME TIME.

[azure bay]

But all the device does is synchronizing them

They are independent

[royal notch]

Yeah, you can say it like that.

[azure bay]

If you place a cubical device with The Cave inside Birthday everything would be just the same

[royal notch]

I agree.

[azure bay]

Memories are reality in a sense that they contain a faithful copy of the world

But

The future is proven to be just another cube

And Albert would be happy to stay there

But no

He doesn't need that

He needs to escape the reality

To reach the nirvana-like lake

[carmine field]

One question

How did Albert's corrupted soul manage to make the golden cube?

If the golden cube is one of the forms of the Elixir, then did he know how to make it?

[azure bay]

Nominally it somehow transformed future energy into it.

Why is it legal idk

I have a theory

[carmine field]

oh

[azure bay]

But unsure

[carmine field]

tell us

[azure bay]

TGC in The Cave was made from memories

William's memories about elixir

[carmine field]

and Dale's blue cube

[azure bay]

It's not Dale's

It's just a blue cube with no connection to Dale

[carmine field]

oh

[azure bay]

Yeah

[carmine field]

Got it, I didn't realize it was missing the arrow

[azure bay]

I think it was needed to speed up the seaech of the right memories

Laura had a whole lot of them from at least 2 lives

[carmine field]

good theory

[azure bay]

Now TPW

My 1st leap is that Mr. Owl digitalized these memories

Like in TWD and BKM

My 2nd leap is Rose getting her hands on them and sending into The Past in a form of electrical signal

[carmine field]

It's a possibility, unless they made another Elixir in the future

[azure bay]

Or maybe she got these memories by helping Laura with Seasons

[carmine field]

I think it just depends on whether there would be any part of the Elixir left after using it on Dale

[azure bay]

Not sure why they would go

[carmine field]

Btw, Mr. Owl knew and allowed Rose to bring Albert back to life?

[azure bay]

No idea

I doubt he'd allow

[royal notch]

It wouldn't make problems, i guess, since at the end that timeline "disappeared", in a certain sense.

[azure bay]

It wasn't the timeline that disaappeared

It was Rose or her consciousness

And probably Albert himself

[carmine field]

By the principle of "one dies and the other finds enlightenment", is it possible that Rose sacrificed herself at the end of TPW?

[azure bay]

No, it's not about elixir or enlightenment

It's about "escaping the cubes to the lake where they both belong"

[carmine field]

I think you might be right. Albert's resurrection process seems to work similarly to William's, with the collection of body parts as sacrifices instead of lives.

[azure bay]

William didn't build his body. His sacrifices were something else. Laura is not a Frankenstein monster because otherwise she'd have Frank's hair

[royal notch]

And 1 foot.

[azure bay]

ok, if we go that far, no arms and many other body parts

[carmine field]

I know. I'm just comparing the two processes by one point.

[royal notch]

[azure bay]

William was rushing his rebirth, Albert was creating his clone to possess him

well

not entirely true

because he wouldn't have scars

but close enough

[royal notch]

I have a question about this cloning, but now i really am better to study. It'll be another time. 👋

[azure bay]

you can ask and read the answer later

[royal notch]

Sorry, @azure bay, i read this message only now, i was already gone. Besides, i like having real-time discussions, especially because this is actually the first Rusty Lake game released while i am in this amazing community (i discovered the server 2 months after TWD)!

I was wondering why Albert resurrected more young, instead of being a perfect clone.

[azure bay]

a perfect clone would be young and with no scars

a faithful copy would be old and bare scars

the perfect copy was young and bared scars

if you can become younger, why not?

more health, more strength, more cognitive capabilities, more time to live

[royal notch]

Sure there are only advantages in this, but then the question may become:- Why not even younger?-. Since this process is the creation of a "copy" (the DNA is the same), i was expecting or a faithful copy or a newborn baby Albert; but he returned with a (it seems) random age that we don't know.

Maybe a newborn would be impossible for the quantity of body matter, actually, but still...

[azure bay]

I think he was resurrected in his prime form

Not too young

not too old

[royal notch]

Could be, even if that asset was used for roughly 40 years.

[azure bay]

40 years long or 40 years old?

[royal notch]

Long. If i remember correctly he was like that from 18 to 57 years old.

[azure bay]

lol

I didn't even realize he was that young in Masks

[royal notch]

Of the triplet also Emma has aging problems!

[azure bay]

or rather the artist

[royal notch]

I once got to see the walkthrough, and in the first version many dates were quite surprising. Technically Rose originally saved Frank when she was 11. Smart girl!

What happened at the end? The result of going deeper and deeper is reaching the Lake?

[azure bay]

it's not deeper

I think it's about 2 consciousness switching places at the moment of switching places

a widening spiral

until they merge together and break the barier

[royal notch]

Do you mean FRose being in the Past and PRose being in the Future?

[azure bay]

they entered their respective cubes

normally it makes you take place of your other-self inside the cube

they did this perfectly in sync

[royal notch]

Ah, got it.

[azure bay]

entered the cubes at the perfect moment of the other entering the other cube

[royal notch]

There is no corrisponding avatar. Nice explanation.

[azure bay]

there is

it just enters the cube

funneling your consciousness further

[royal notch]

Yes, it's just not where it should be.

[azure bay]

not exactly

or

depends on what you mean by the avatar

and where you expect to see them

I mean that the body stays

and it's in the posision of sending its consciousness into a cube

so the consciousness that arrives is sent right away into a different cube

[royal notch]

I agree, i was trying to say the same in some way.

[carmine field]

Any theories on The Lost Soul?

Is it a physical place? Why deer-headed Dale, Mr. Owl, the songtress, Laura and other people are there?

Why didn't Bob die?

[visual coral]

Most likely it's in Bob's head, so not real. Crow gave Bob the gun so the reality of him actually shooting himself is also questionable

[carmine field]

partially agree

that doesn't explain Dale's presence in that dream

I need to play TWD again but

[visual coral]

Well Bob did meet Dale before. And in the secret scene right after that he remembers him

[carmine field]

this event of The Lost Soul is considered a memory in Sarah's level, isn't it?

[carmine field]

Yeah, but why Dale with the deer head?

[visual coral]

No, that's dream on the day 5 I think

[visual coral]

Foreshadowing him becoming one probably

[carmine field]

took a screenshot from youtube

Unless not literal, this event could be a memory. Idk

I brought the subject up just to know the opinion of the people here

[visual coral]

I mean it's his memory of him loosing his mind and having a fever dream

[azure bay]

it's not Dale, it's VanderDeer

Arguably his future deva form

[azure bay]

it's a memory about a dream

or rather

a dream

featureing a memory

about another dream

[carmine field]

Sounds plausible, I guess

[azure bay]

it's important for the institute because he saw Laura there

[carmine field]

I wonder something

Did Rose give up her memories of Laura to Mr. Owl too?

[azure bay]

no idea

[carmine field]

It's possible if Rose was already working for Mr. Owl back then, but I'm not sure if the institute would have removed her memories completely or returned them later

I really need to play TWD again

[azure bay]

I don't think it will help you understand Rose's memory shenanigans

for that, we need a new game

[carmine field]

you are right

[carmine field]

Any other besides these?

I'm taking screenshots of everything

[azure bay]

nothing

[carmine field]

thanks

[visual coral]

Here's a thought - naraka is a place where souls turn into mushrooms or plants, hence the connection from mushrooms to naraka in seasons. It's a pretty hellish state to be stuck in, but at the same time it's rather simple form of existence. Souls literally blossom in the lake

[royal notch]

The guests seems to have a bad time there, though.

If we consider the Lake as naraka, i mean.

[azure bay]

the guests aren't forced to stay there

[royal notch]

In fact i said in the past to not believe about the Lake being it. Their corrupted souls got straight into it after killing Harvey.

[carmine field]

sounds interesting

[floral mauve]

It could be the trees or forests themselves as naraka not lake

They just happen to be in the lake

Though lake is alive

I doubt lake itself is naraka

More like a creature that has universal powers

[visual coral]

The lake itself is not naraka. That weird red forest under it is

[royal notch]

It could be, still they got there by themselves.

[carmine field]

in other words, Mr. Rabbit was reborn as naraka at the end of Birthday?

And what about Rose in TPW?

[floral mauve]

They simply escaped a loophole which I have no idea what they meant tbh, like at which point is Rose trapped

I only know they managed to establish connections between 2 realities

But how they are trapped idk

According to buddhism, I believe naraka is worse than preta

So, perhaps it’s a bad thing for rabbit but we don’t know whether it occurred on him or no since it was a blue cube

[floral mauve]

Though the problem is that we don’t know much about it since by the end of tpw, it kinda looks peaceful in harmony

[carmine field]

perhaps it could have a different meaning in RL

instead of suffering, it may be something to do with taking a simpler form and joining the lake

but the red forest doesn't seem to be harmonic

so I'm not sure

[azure bay]

I see that the usual trees and Rose's soul have a big difference

the latter is in blossom

that could be the difference between "naraka" and "nirvana"

in case other trees are souls too

[visual coral]

If by balacing the substance of your past lives you can escape the state of preta and you turn into a tree after, that means you can only escape it through naraka. And only after being in naraka for a period of time you can properly reborn

[floral mauve]

I see no need of going through naraka for such

Rabbit didn’t balance anything in blue cube, he got shot and became a tree

I originally thought that he died in birthday which is a way of escaping his current form but then he could just shot himself like van gogh

[azure bay]

Rabbit didn't turn into a tree. Visually, he dissolved into an existing one (lore-wise it could mean something else completely). And it was after he failed, not succeeded.

[karmic eagle]

anyone have some theory about the best kept memory thing?

[carmine field]

about the institution itself?

[karmic eagle]

about the arg

maybe some progress idk lol😭

[azure bay]

what theories do you expect?

[karmic eagle]

im kinda lost here

[karmic eagle]

nothing specific, just wanted to hear something

[carmine field]

BKM appears to be yet another institution linked to Rusty Lake

[azure bay]

notably to Owl's operations

to be exact

[carmine field]

^

[karmic eagle]

yeah i agree

im thinking if theres something hiding in the website

i tried to call to the number they have there, and at the end theres this strange music, idk maybe its a puzzle os something

[azure bay]

almost everything is revealed

there's a google doc pinned in #📼｜tpw-bkm-arg

[karmic eagle]

thank u!!

[azure bay]

you may want to take your time to explore the back end of the website

there are some docs and vids

[tidal hawk]

Joel 2:31 says the phrase The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. Which is close to the phrase in the 9th plague of paradise. idk I thought this meant something

[floral mauve]

Who is joe

[covert wyvern]

its a bible verse

[floral mauve]

I see

I thought it was time at first

[vague imp]

great and terrible

[covert wyvern]

@vague imp this isn't related to theories, please stick to #📼｜tpw-bkm-arg in this case.

[vague imp]

wait

this has something to do with the past within

[carmine field]

I don't think it means anything except that the game references things from the Bible.

This excerpt has been adapted to fit the Rusty Lake universe.

[carmine field]

any thoughts on the cube room at the bottom of the lake?

[carmine field]

Having existed since Paradise, I imagine this room was built a long time ago, with the elevator having been added to it later by Mr. Owl.

For a while I interpreted the Paradox room to be based on this white room, but from the perspective of Dale's dream. Both rooms are under the lake, have the elevator and you can see silhouettes of what's outside through the walls.

[azure bay]

The forest around Dale's mind doesn't feel like the lake forest.

• it has birch trees
• it has traces of civilisation (timber and structures)
• the lake is outside the forest

[carmine field]

Yes it is true. The entire external environment is considerably different. It is likely that the Paradox room and the white room are not really related.

It was an old interpretation of mine.

[vague imp]

Okay this is weird....

Can anyone explain to me

[bright parrot]

She's called the lady of the lake

And yes she's Caroline

Though the painting had black cube in CASE23 is this from tpw

[ebon aspen]

Salome 🤝 Caroline
I really wonder how far the implications go on this

[ebon aspen]

Thats the og painting from cornelius

[bright parrot]

Does that imply anything or it's just inspired from

[ebon aspen]

.

The devs sure made caroline to be exactly alike that painting
But as you said, the head was switched by a cube, so idk whats the true reason behind that choice

[carmine field]

even the painter has been changed

it's Lacus Fleo in RL

[floral mauve]

Flevo lake is a dry lake in Netherland

though its dutch name is Het Flevomeer

But

it could be not dutch

but Latin

Lacus Fleo is cry me a lake?

I am not expert in Latin

[bright parrot]

Who's lacus fleo

[tidal hawk]

the person who wrote/ drew the lady of the lake!

[floral mauve]

though it seems more like I cry a lake

[bright parrot]

@covert wyvern can you tell anything about Lacus fleo

[covert wyvern]

it used to be a lake.

[tidal hawk]

oh

waitttt,

so a picture was illustrated by a lake?

[floral mauve]

I think there is a difference between Flevo and fleo

[covert wyvern]

O heck off with the avif google

[floral mauve]

Damy, is Flevo and fleo similar or wha

[bright parrot]

Also what's with that fire sign smth

[tidal hawk]

it’s how it is in the game

i think

[floral mauve]

I looked up in dutch its flevomeer everywhere not fleo

and seems like flevo is simply a name

[tidal hawk]

flevomeer, vandamee-

[floral mauve]

So after second thought

I stick with Latin

[floral mauve]

yea, meer means lake in dutch

[tidal hawk]

dale vandalake..

[floral mauve]

from the lake

[tidal hawk]

OHHHH

[floral mauve]

or

of the lake

[tidal hawk]

idk if people found that out a while ago or

[floral mauve]

lets say 5 years at least

[tidal hawk]

oh..

[floral mauve]

since lacus is latin, they didnt use meer

[carmine field]

It's a puzzle hint

a burning cigar

[carmine field]

One thing that I found weird

In Rusty Lake Roots, the scenes of The Family Band and Voodoo occur in Summer 1904

But the tombs of Samuel and Ida say they died in December

[floral mauve]

yep

the tomb date is still not correct tbh

[azure bay]

it's used in a puzzle

[floral mauve]

and they didnt fix it so I assume they got something in their mind and they just didnt redesign it

[alpine hollow]

guys

omg

idk if its important but

so

[azure bay]

#📼｜tpw-bkm-arg

[alpine hollow]

oh

sorry

im deliting

[azure bay]

no need

[alpine hollow]

oh

anyway

[azure bay]

What I mean it's solved there

[alpine hollow]

what do u mean

oh

sorry

[azure bay]

there's an ARG

[alpine hollow]

yaya i got i

it

[azure bay]

lasting since TPW came out

but it was on pause since x-mas

[alpine hollow]

oh

its because i found a code

let me go on secret shat

chat

[azure bay]

eh?

[visual coral]

Since when does memory extraction's side-effects include "frequent visions of other patients memories"? Was that always been a thing? How is that supposed to work?

[real lantern]

Uh yeah, i remember that one from the start of the BKM website

They should probably sterilize their memory taking apparatus, clean out the thought juice

[azure bay]

@real lantern @visual coral on closer look at the videos it seems that they use existing cubes to store new memories

[visual coral]

Damn, I did't even notice that. That would mean you can mesh memories\realities together. Still doesn't explain how memories can accidentally leak into each other though

[azure bay]

maybe you "look" into the cube during the extraction

[visual coral]

That black cube seemed to just chilling on the table during the memory extraction. Unless that MRI looking machine is also connected to cubes

Or I guess they could have extracted the memories to that cube directly, and the guy was just adjusting it or something

[azure bay]

I clearly remember a guy in protective gear taking the cube somewhere. Can you recall the context?

[visual coral]

Now that you said that, I do remember that too. I was talking about Fiona Simons intake video

[floral mauve]

I dont remember

[visual coral]

I found it, it's in the BKM Security Breach Allegations. We can't really tell if the cube is taken away for the extraction or not. But the doctor and the patient are gone, so idk

[azure bay]

for Charlie & Brad the cube wasn't there anymore aafter the procedure

So was for Fiona

[visual coral]

Yep. So i guess we can peace together that the cube is taken away sometime during the extraction. If they extract memories directly that would explain how they can leak into each other. I wonder how many memories are in that cube

[azure bay]

The guy taking the cube was in the vid for John

[visual coral]

In Fiona's vid the doctor seems to be adjusting something in the place where the cube was. I thought we just can't see it cause he's in the front

[azure bay]

no, the yellow surface under the microscope where the cube was before is clearly empty despite being distorted

The cube disappeared even in Will's case

it's the most peculiar one imo

he wanted to preserve the memories of his dog that was about to die

but in the end he left without it thinking it was already dead

(based on his review)

[visual coral]

darn my adhd

[visual coral]

You think they killed the dog?

[azure bay]

at least took it away

I don't quite recall, was Will going to euthanize it?

[visual coral]

hopefully to make it immortal

he said the dog was diagnosed with illness, i'll go check

yeah, he only said that the dog was diagnosed with illness and possibly wouldn't be with him for very long

[azure bay]

they'd probably decide to euthanize it themselves

sooner or later

[visual coral]

As someone who held her dog when she died from illness - some people would hope for a miracle till the end

He definitely would've wanted to spend his dog last days with him

[azure bay]

no doubt

I'm just saying that yeah

they probably killed the dog

[visual coral]

those bastards

I can excuse murder but I draw the line at animal cruelty

[azure bay]

I don't think they were cruel to it though

[visual coral]

What's the point of killing the dog?

[azure bay]

If it is to die anyway, it's only rational to euthanize it.

for such an entity as BKM

a shady corporation full of medical staff

[visual coral]

Will asked only to preserve his memories of the dog, so he would've remembered that it's not supposed to be dead. Unless they took his memories of his dog from him completely

[azure bay]

obviously they did

I think it was the reason behind the whole operation

to take some extra memories nobody would notice missing

[visual coral]

obviously he said

they feeding them to the lake right?

[azure bay]

I have no idea what they do with them later

probably they flush them into the lake, yes

but Will has written in his review that his dog was already dead

that's why it's so obvious

[visual coral]

darn u my adhd

So what would meshing the memories together mean lore wise?

[azure bay]

here I have no idea for real

[visual coral]

that makes me feel a little better about myself, thank you

[azure bay]

hmmm

I used to think that Roses's VHS contained her memories about metro

now I doubt they are hers

or if they are memories in the 1st place

or if that's the real content of the VHS

hmmm

there was the same fragment on the winners' VHS too

only it wasn't a TV showing the teaser

but the cube

[visual coral]

hmmm

who's memories are those then? the birb?

[azure bay]

most likely

but it's more weird that way

[visual coral]

Everything is weird in rl. Like how do they even make cubes into VHS

[azure bay]

if you can show them on screen, it's not a problem to record the output

[visual coral]

I'll pretend I understood that

[azure bay]

I mean

the difficult part isn't recording

you can record whatever you see on TV

[visual coral]

I mean, the cubes are realities. How much of these realities are in the VHS

[azure bay]

I think only the visual

and sound

all the VHS can store

[visual coral]

ooh that make sense

[azure bay]

the tricky part would be to convert the realities into a video

[visual coral]

yeah, that's what I'm confused about

[azure bay]

it's possible since The Mill

we're so used to it we didn't even question it until now

[visual coral]

You mean the TV?

[azure bay]

I mean the memories seen during the extrqction

also The Cave and TWD

[visual coral]

ah, the memory puzzle. the one I always take a picture of I don't have to remember it

Indeed, they did show memories on screen before

Maybe meshing of the memories is kind of a 2 in one package deal. It's more concentrated and better than more "small" memories

[azure bay]

having a lot of memories inside 1 cube is normal

but we've never seen multiple sets of memories belonging to different persons together

[visual coral]

With that you can basically hand make a reality that you want. You practically Thanos

[azure bay]

I don't think so

You can communicate with cube inhabitants

even transfer physical matter

but nothing beyond

what's more, if anything you bend the reality only inside the given cube

[visual coral]

I mean, yet. We clearly still learning about how cubes work

[azure bay]

overpowering cubes is a slippery slope

[visual coral]

There's has to be a reason why they took memories about the dog. They always asked about the emotions connected to the memories. Maybe they really needed a lot of positive memories for themselves. Or the lake

[azure bay]

that's why many people are against the cubes being real even in a slightest, against time travel, against reality bending

[visual coral]

sorry, my mind is wondering. Continue about the cubes

[azure bay]

it creates plot holes

like if you can time travel, why didn't Owl talk to still living William about the elixir?

or save Caroline for that matter?

actually

[visual coral]

why you believe they're real then?

[azure bay]

because they have to

since the beginning the devs were telling us about changing all that you touch, changing the fate, changing the past which is never dead and isn't even past

and now we have a bomb in a form of TPW

where a memory 1st modifies the thing we'd call the reality

and then Albert says that said reality is a trap too

[visual coral]

But what about the plot holes?

[azure bay]

idk

if I were to ratinalize them, I'd say that there are limitations

I'm sure there are timelines

each cube is effectively one

you can change it, you can live in it but the outside world is intact

and the outside world is just another cube. Maybe it's what limits the cube's power

[visual coral]

you know what would be great?

having all that explained with amazing voice overs, animations and sub so people could understand it better. Like in a video or something. Do you know someone who can do that?

it sure takes a smart guy

[azure bay]

I don't get your intention to say such things because you know better that it's already our reality

[visual coral]

I was just too funny to not say

[azure bay]

the problem is, I'm only one guy. Without this discord channel and many other chats like this I'd be just an arrogant subjective close-minded jerk (I mean even more so)

[visual coral]

I love your self awerness

[bright parrot]

What happened to mary after childbirth

She isn't seen for a long time

[fierce beacon]

she took maternity leave

[azure bay]

she's just irrelevant for the plot, nothing supernatural

[carmine field]

After James' death, I believe she raised her three children.

[bright parrot]

"raised"

[carmine field]

wdym?

[bright parrot]

Nothing

[azure bay]

I reckon it's about her being neglecting mother

letting the kids bully Albert

[carmine field]

Yes, but she was the only adult in the house. She probably took care of them, even though she may have neglected them in some way.

[floral mauve]

Is it possible to assume Mary being a irresponsible parent with alcoholism

I mean single mother stress is quite sad

Even back when James was alive I don’t remember seeing him with children

[bright parrot]

Yeah there is lack of parental bonding

Unlike paradise

Even frank had his moment with emma

[azure bay]

We don't see Vanderbooms as much together as we see Eilanders

their story is much longer

and demands a lot of time skips

[bright parrot]

Yeah

But the question is does it exists and is not shown or is it just not there

[azure bay]

we have no idea, that's my message

[bright parrot]

Case closed

[visual coral]

I see no reason to asume such things. We don't see any servants in the Vanderbooms house, nor do we know anything about how they made their ends meet. Someone had to take care of that house and make money somehow. Sure, James could've inherited some of his uncle's alchemy gold or smth, but the dinner isn't gonna cook itself

[floral mauve]

I see no counter argument

[azure bay]

Having just enough of passive income could work for them

[floral mauve]

U can both work and being alcoholic or because of the work stress you start drinking. Also the working part, I think back then around RL region, they could be self sustaining

Just grow like farmers, or become land Lords though we see no evidence

[bright parrot]

No one works in RL

Not even Mr.Owl

He got servants for that

[azure bay]

He's literally a manager

maybe not only for TWD

[bright parrot]

Owner

[azure bay]

he's called the manager

[bright parrot]

He's chill AF

Wait so he's not the owner

[azure bay]

He's called the manager

[floral mauve]

Gus

[bright parrot]

What do they call him at twd

[azure bay]

The Manager

or Mr. O

[bright parrot]

So is there possibility that he is not the owner of hotel

[azure bay]

no

[carmine field]

"My name is mr Owl, I am the owner of the Rusty Lake Hotel."

[tacit nymph]

everything is under rusty lake

ok what am I doing

[pure spindle]

When there's Rust in the Lake

[carmine field]

the phone guy in Seasons and Birthday is Mr. Crow? or just corrupted souls?

I imagine that, in the case of Birthday, the guy on the phone is Mr. Rabbit. "There will be blood" sounds like a threat.

And Mr. Rabbit is arguably a corrupted soul

[azure bay]

In Seasons, It's likely corrupted Laura from Winter herself.

1. It's the only season the phone is silent
2. The very same connection to the past is used to transfer the light beam
3. When told to find them in the past, Laura finds herself

In Birthday, not sure honestly

For the most part, Crow speaks this voice when you call specifically The Mill. I tend to think that time has stopped there (because of the story in Dale's office and The Mill entirely taking place in 1972, according to the official timeline overviews). I think the reason he speaks like that is his sewed mouth.

In Bday the voice not only warns about blood but also says that the past is never dead.

It could be Crow repeating what Owl said (but why?)
It could be Rabbit making sure that at least Dale survives and ?informing that he'll come to balance his past? (again, why?)

[carmine field]

It's true, I forgot about "The past is never dead..." of Birthday

you may be right

[azure bay]

that's my strategy: suggesting several options so one of them almost inevitably turns out true

[carmine field]

good one

[carmine field]

it's almost 6 AM here 💀 my head is messed up

but soon i'm going to sleep

[carmine field]

We have a problem

If The Mill comprises all the events of 1971 to 1972, justifying Mr. Crow's voice with his mouth sewn shut, how does Theatre fit in the timeline?

[azure bay]

I currently have only 1 guess

I repeat, the timeline overviews say The Mill took place entirely in 1972

So Crow, Laura and Dale could get from 3 different points in time

[carmine field]

It's an interesting justification for marrying the idea of ​​time stopping at the mill, while also explaining the phone call in Birthday

[azure bay]

Phone call in Birthday is unclear

but calls in Paradox and UB are pretty much straightforward

[carmine field]

The devs' choice to make Bob "die" by switching places with the corrupted soul fits perfectly the idea of the ​​Samsara Wheel, even if it's not literal

[floral mauve]

I wont take it in literal way

in twd half of the scenes look like fever dream or symbolism

[azure bay]

It was the opposite the day 7

[azure bay]

That day specifically he was going crazy

[carmine field]

yep

[carmine field]

he went insane

[carmine field]

I'm watching nowhere's video about the continuity between Seasons, The Lake and Harvey's Box

I have a theory

It could be that Harvey's Box took place in the first timeline ever, which occurs before Laura went back in time to visit her memories (starting Seasons). Harvey may have saved Laura from that corrupted soul in the Cabin, and both survived.

Meanwhile, in the timeline where Laura goes back to the past and frees Harvey, The Lake may have occurred. Harvey wasn't there to save Laura, so she had to save herself somehow.

[floral mauve]

that still does not explain the use of Blue and Green gems

[floral mauve]

it makes sense generally and I believe nowhere did mention it in his video

we got multiple combinations

[carmine field]

I mostly agree with nowhere. The Lake gave another chance to her

[floral mauve]

well, there is a significant problem nowhere yet to convince me

blue gem is an ending like green gem

unlike HB or Case 23-4 where u failed and Lake give u second chance

[carmine field]

hmmm

I have an idea

nevermind. There's a big hole in my theory :/

I think maybe there's a timeline where Laura died to that corrupted soul.

But I can't fit it into the continuity of the story

[floral mauve]

[azure bay]

Ehm...
Lifelong Trauma and Missing Parrot

[carmine field]

I hadn't watched the whole video, sorry

I'm glad you've compiled so many possibilities into one video. Your theories are great

[carmine field]

Yeah he did. I was stupid

[floral mauve]

[azure bay]

May I ask for a reason why? It's concerning and I need to do something with it

[carmine field]

I just stopped in the middle of the video to try to comment a little bit, but I couldn't watch it later because I didn't have my headphones. My brother was lending me his headphones, but I had to leave a few minutes later.

I constantly go back and forth, so it ends up being a bit complicated.

[azure bay]

I see. normally it's because my 1st vids arent very entertaining

[carmine field]

Definitely not!

[floral mauve]

when new video

[azure bay]

eventually. I'm only at the recording stage and I have a ton of IRL crap

[carmine field]

The way you summarized the three games of Laura's early arc was incredibly intuitive.

I'm still going to watch the rest of the videos, but I really like your approach. I could even show your channel to people who have never played the games.

[carmine field]

damn

[azure bay]

what do you like about it? I'm planning to alter the format and need to know what works well already

[carmine field]

Summarizing or contextualizing parts of the story before theorizing about it was a great choice. There are always new people appearing, so it's always interesting to introduce the franchise and the story it tells.

[azure bay]

ok, thx for the feedbqck

[carmine field]

Does this mean the sacrifices are considered William's substances?

[visual coral]

I been thinking about this for the last couple of days too. As far as I know "balancing the substances of your past lives" is the only way to escape the state of preta. But the only thing that is connected to William's past live is his own heart.

[carmine field]

I just noticed. "Substance" is not in plural. @visual coral

It could mean that the family legacy and all the sacrifices are considered only one substance.

My interpretation of it. ^^

[visual coral]

Good catch, I didn't notice it before. I just checked and in Theater it's also not plural. That's interesting

[carmine field]

I'm not sure if it affects anything, but what is written in Mr. Rabbit is:
"this substance from one of my past lives"

The original phrase always used is:
"Balance the substance of your past lives"

While the sentence of Mr. Rabbit implies that there may be several substances, the phrase often used implies that there is only one substance. Furthermore, the substance that Mr. Rabbit refers to belongs to one of his past lives, not all (although it doesn't matter if the sacrifices are considered William's substance).

But I don't know how much we have to take the phrase literally, so I want to read different opinions on this subject.

[visual coral]

I thought there's suppoused to be multiple substances, but I guess it was never the case. So 4 objects that we see in Theater are all just one substance. I used to see the whole "balancing the substance" process as a "Solve Et Coagula" in alchemy, which means that something must be broken down before it can be built up. Substance is breaking down and balancing is building up again. But I'm not sure.

[azure bay]

seems too deep. Especially considering Dale

There was an idea that William's balancing took place

in Samsara Room

As if every animal represents one of his past lives

[visual coral]

I still don't see how you're connecting "balancing the substance" to Dale if it's written on Laura's page and could easily be referring to her balancing the substance as William CS

[azure bay]

that doesn't matter

Dale's guided by cubes? yes

Dale's making elixir? yes, the golden cube

Dale's finding enlightenment? ABSOLUTELY YES

Dale's meddling with his past? it looks so

[carmine field]

Perhaps the "balancing the substance" of Dale may be related to overcoming his trauma

since he was in the process of becoming a deva

[visual coral]

YES IT DOES you little hypocrite yes it does. There's no reason to connect that sentence to Dale if it's written on Laura's page and is clearly about her path. Is Dale taking the similar path? Yes of course.

[visual coral]

I'll text u later, so we can talk about it in detail, k? I kinda busy rn

[azure bay]

People wouldn't even be justified to think about Laura doing all these things before the devs told themselves that she was making elixir in Seasons. And also before William's rebirth was called enlightenment too.

Under the isolated context of The Cave and Dale's Journey after it connecting RLMH&F program to Laura makes no sense.

[winter scarab]

I just started playing Paradise and an interesting detail I noticed is that, while human, Elizabeth is blind, but in her enlightened state as ms. Pheasant she can see and thus enjoys photography

[azure bay]

I think they don't remember a thing

[winter scarab]

Really? Mr Crow remembers his past life

[azure bay]

As the matter of fact, the guests show nothing during Hotel that would suggest it for them. New professions, sometimes new personalities.

IDK what would be the reason for that. I know they were enlightened much differently than Crow and Owl, could be that

[winter scarab]

Well they do take place about a century apart, could be that also

[azure bay]

Didn't happen to Crow

His personality stays pretty much the same

[winter scarab]

Its hard to say

Mr Boar's personality stays the same kinda too

[azure bay]

I didn't say it changed for everyone

[azure bay]

It isn't. We saw him before his ascension we saw him right after, we saw him popping out from time to time. There's no big evolution

[winter scarab]

No i mean in general

I might need to finish paradise before i return to this

I just thought it was interesting how elizabeth after being presumably cured of her blindness takes up a very visual art form

[azure bay]

She became narcissistic, David stopped being a creep and got a ton of charms, Nicolas and Margaret being the most hardcore cultists suddenly started successful science carreers

[winter scarab]

Still, you cant deny that its an interesting colleration

[azure bay]

Pheasant not bein blindg anymore? Not as much exciting as, let's say, Hotel ending

[winter scarab]

No i meant that elizabeth not being blind anymore takes on a very visual art form

[azure bay]

I have doubts it was intentional. Vanderbooms and TWD MH&F were added to the story pretty much retroactively, so likely are the Eilanders

[winter scarab]

Even if so, its still a fun unintended corellation

[winter scarab]

Also, they could have very well had mrs pheasant like photography and then later added Elizabeth as the reason why.

[molten maple]

Hello, I just want to ask a question about the plot. Spoilers are welcome. Is there any hidden connection between the Eilander, Vanderboom and Vandermeer families. As for the last two, the question is not about Dale and Laura's connection. If there is a written plot connection between these three families, can you please tell me about it, or at least tell me in which game it is set?

[ebon aspen]

Bloodline-wise? Afawk, no
The vanderboom bros found stuff from the eilanders and started to work with alchemy, later on aldous vdb turned into mr crow and started to work with mr owl, whos an eilander
Mr owl also took an interest on dale and wants him to be the next "ruler of the lake" or whichever term youd like to call the person who will take care of all the cubes' shenanigans
We do have some theories on aldous being dale's grandpa and some ppl may try to connect the eilanders to the vanderbooms somehow, but nothing confirmed

[carmine field]

Aldous and William already knew Mr. Owl before they created the Elixir

[carmine field]

I changed my mind. I found evidence that Leonard and Frank may have died.

[azure bay]

I know about this but this hardly makes sense

It's supposed to be his leg

[carmine field]

Each of the containers has the first letter of the name of the person it belongs to and the year of death of that person.

[azure bay]

but it wasn't detached in 1935 like everything else

[carmine field]

actually you only take William's heart in 1860

Even though it is weird that William waited 1 year before collecting his heart, the scene of the Summer of 1860 is entirely devoted to this.

Perhaps, for some reason, William could not have collected his own heart shortly after death. His body was preserved in the grandfather clock as well.

And yet, the date there remains 1859.

[azure bay]

unless it was really collected in 1859 and the chapter in Roots was all gameplay because we couldn't see the prior events

[carmine field]

So I don't think it's about when the parts were collected, it's about when people died.

[carmine field]

Isn't it odd that the devs made this event happen in the summer instead of the spring of 1860 (like the previous two scenes)? As I see it, this emphasizes that it is an event that actually happened.

[azure bay]

what actually happened could be James chilling out and dreaming about Mary

[carmine field]

I'll be back in a little while

[carmine field]

I don't believe that's it because although it does happen, it's in the background and doesn't really change anything. The name of the scene is "The Uncle", there are blood stains everywhere (symbolizing the fact that there is a corpse) and it is even at this moment that the grandfather clock is broken, being fixed by Samuel decades later.

But let's assume that the only thing that really happened in the summer of 1860 was James relaxing and dreaming about Mary, defeating my argument. This means nothing compared to the evidence shown in Paradox.

Here's my reasoning:
The numbering of the four jars would correspond to both the date of death and the date of collection of each sacrifice, with the criterion being either one.
However, Leonard's jar number does not match the sacrificial collection date. So, necessarily, the criterion is the date of death. Of course it makes sense.

I don't think we should dismiss evidence without good reason. As theorists, we must trust that the devs have the story they created under control, or there's no point in theorizing anything.

I didn't notice this, you said it!

Sorry

[azure bay]

blood stains can't be used as evidence because their interpretation can be anything. For example, just a simple fact of William's death.

Jars corresponding dates of deaths logically makes no sense. If anything, it normally should mean the year of preservation.

Speaking of Paradox, normally them appearing there wouldn't make much sense either. The sacrifices were broken down during the ritual so Dale couldn't remember them in case Paradox was based on his memories, and in case it was constructed by Owl, Dale didn't know the Vanderbooms and would get no potential message behind the organs.

I know the evidence and I know what I was saying. My message is usually "we don't know for sure" and "whatever you say, there can be a different legit point of view". The evidence we have is still weak and can be dismissed. Even if the devs truly intended to kill the cousins off, for now nothing can stop them from changing their minds in case they need these characters alive.

this topic specifically isn't really relevant to demand a definitive answer based on existing evidence

I'd prefer to wait for something we can't dismiss for real

either them appearing in Laura's life or Rose visiting their graves

[carmine field]

I agree with you on that point. We can't be sure on anything because everything is still pretty vague

[carmine field]

As for the jars, they still show the years of death, including Leonard's presumed death, even though it doesn't make sense for them to be there.

Maybe it's just a meaningless easter egg, like Dale's birthday in Roots. Or maybe there's a logic we don't understand yet. The fact is, it's intentionally there.

[azure bay]

some of the props are used for achievement huntings

[carmine field]

yep

[azure bay]

notably a weird 2604 number next to the alchemists' initials and the year of James' sacrifice

[carmine field]

26.04 is spring, right?

Maybe it's the date when the brothers managed to produce the elixir

just a guess

I'll check the page again

[azure bay]

Doesn't look like a date

[carmine field]

yeah it doesn't

[carmine field]

anyway, it's Albert, Emma and Samuel's birthday

Not that it really matters

[sudden dust]

New art idea just dropped

[carmine field]

By the way, what happened to that mammoth thing?

Was it just a teaser?

[carmine field]

Also, who made the roadmap art for the 7th anniversary?

Was it Rusty Lake itself?

Oh found it

[ebon aspen]

I still believe we will end up having a game with the mammoth about the lake origins, but at this point that beast is more of a fandom joke than anything

[carmine field]

🦣

[covert wyvern]

The mammoth does still live according to the 7year anniversary roadmap

O that's what you talked about oops

[visual coral]

That mammoth will outlive us all

[carmine field]

what is this?

(from the roadmap)

btw, there are some letters around too. What were they for?

T, D, I, P

[ebon aspen]

Theres an N too, we came to the conclusion it meant "the past is never dead"

About the image, thats frank finding another way out of the well

[ebon aspen]

I wouldnt call standing in front of a museum for an ice age exhibition an ideal way of living, but welp, that guy sure got immortalized so ig its a win

[vivid bridge]

I do wish that the mammoth game would give us actual backstory to the lake but I don't think the devs want to explain the lake to keep it mysterious

[delicate atlas]

Just a little observation I had a while ago

But some RL characters get resurrected while others get reincarnated

Idk if there's a certain pattern to who gets which though

But I think it's fascinating

Examples:
Reincarnated: the eilanders/hotel guests, they don't remember their past and they live as totally new people. Laura/William.
Resurrected: Albert, Mr. Owl (sort of). They remember their past selves and names and in Albert's case he didn't change shape, Mr. Owl on the other hand gained his owl form but his human form is just him but older

Mr. Crow is the exception since he gained enlightenment while still alive

[visual coral]

It is fascinating indeed. But what makes it even more complicated is the fast that when Jacob was turning into the Owl in was the same type of metaphysical space as William, when he was being reincarnated. That suggests that Jacob did in fact die and got reincarnated as the Owl. And what we see in the Cave and other games is his new, already aged body. Idk how he remembers his previous life but hotel guests don't. Unless hotel guests were born as asuras

[delicate atlas]

That's why I said he was resurrected

Resurrection is bringing a dead person back to life

While reincarnation is their soul (life energy) being passed down to another body to give the body life

So no memories or personality/identify gets passed down

In other words enlightenment can be either resurrection or reincarnation

And not only reincarnation

But that won't explain both methods involving the Samsara cycle

[visual coral]

I was saying that Jacob body burned and his soul got the elixir in that purgatory place. And after that he got reincarnated as the Owl with a new human body. But if you think that his soul got back to his burned body and it got resurrected then I guess that a possibility

[delicate atlas]

OOPS

Yeah I see what you mean now

But it's confusing because he still had his personality and memories

But I guess in resurrection, the dead body gets recreated? Like in Albert's case

[visual coral]

"Once I was a man, like you" "The great sucrifice was needed to change into something else" doesn't sound like a resurrection to me. Unlike Albert, who just recreated his body, Jacob was enlightened and became a completly different being.
I don't know how he kept his memories after death. Maybe it's the elixir. Both Owl and Crow are cheaters for using it, so anything is possible

[delicate atlas]

Fascinating

Thanks for engaging with my theory lol

[visual coral]

My pleasure

[azure bay]

Crow and Rose have set a high bar of resemblance through age Owl doesn't nearly reach. His jaw, nose, ears, mouth are different

[carmine field]

I believe Mr. Owl took on a new body because he did, in fact, die. Meanwhile, Mr. Crow was enlightened while he was still alive, preserving his old body, even though he was reborn as an asura from the perspective of Samsara.

[delicate atlas]

Good point

[floral mauve]

Owl and crow share similarities

Owl also got enlightened through elixir

Just not the green one

So it could be explained to a certain degree that despite being burnt to death, he got enlightened just in time

Though in which form he receives his enlightenment

In human or corrupted or pure neutral soul

I don’t think it’s human

[carmine field]

Any theories that explain the timepieces?

We know that timepieces are the key to open the gate for William's rebirth. But why are the phases/states of Samsara Wheel written on them?

देव (Deva) on the gold timepiece
असुर (Asura) on the silver timepiece
मानुष (Manusya) on the bronze timepiece

I would have to search on Buddhism a bit more, but do you know if there's anything special between these three?

[visual coral]

This could be a metaphor for the progression of the lake rulers.
First, there were people - Manusya
Then Owl became the ruler - Asura
Dale is set to be the next - Deva

[carmine field]

It could be, but I don't see how that makes sense in context.

What we have are these three paintings.

It's easy to relate the first and second paintings to the timepieces:

• Manusya: The time when the brothers were still human.
• Asura: After drinking the Elixir, Mr. Crow was born.

But what about the third painting?

Maybe I'm overthinking this lol

[visual coral]

You're definitely not overthinking, I was confused by it too.
The paintings show the progression of William and Aldous story from human to asura and CS, to rebirth through samsara. More focus is on William though, since it's he's rebith
The timepieces reflect that too: bronze=>silver=>gold
The last painting is the most confusing part, but parallels with the lake rulers could explain that. It's still open for interpretations.

[azure bay]

3 paintings are about progression of the alchemists' souls

1st they are humans

Then one is CS and the other one asura

Then cs is reborn as a human

Hense the tree and Rose

There's no apparent connection between the paintings and the timepieces

Just different progressions

[visual coral]

See, that's the confusing part. Cause first two painting do correlate to their timepieces, but the last one doesn't

[azure bay]

That's why the pattern doesn't click

[carmine field]

You may be right

[azure bay]

And if the pattern doesn't click then chances are, it's coinsidental

[royal notch]

Now that you mentioned it and sent the photo, i realized a particular! How could the alchemist brothers know about Rose??

[floral mauve]

Crow does have limited prophecy vision I believe

[south heath]

Well isn't Laura just rebirthed William/Owl? Wouldn't that mean that, since they'd planned for Owl to be rebirth at some point + they've got hands in the past/present/future, they would know about Rose?

[carmine field]

Laura isn't Owl

They are completely different people.

[south heath]

I thought Mr Owl and

Paude

Pause

Wait you're right

[carmine field]

Owl was born after Jakob's sacrifice in Rusty Lake Paradise

[south heath]

Owl and William are two separate people if I'm not completely stupid

?

[carmine field]

They are

[south heath]

OHH I thought they were the same because William is Mr Crow's brother then (right?)

[carmine field]

Yep, William is

[south heath]

(I'm getting back in after awhile, forgive me)

[carmine field]

Jakob/Mr. Owl has no family connection to William and Aldous at this point.

There are only theories

[south heath]

OHHHH Now I remember

Cause they proved them to be one and the same in Paradox if I'm not mistaken

Chapter two

[carmine field]

wdym?

[south heath]

I'd have to replay it to make sure I'm not pulling stuffing out of a hat but I remember there was a scene in one of the games where Mr. Owl's head kept disappearing and reappearing into his suit? And at one point the head became Jakob Eilander

[carmine field]

Yep

That's right

[south heath]

YEAHH

[south heath]

This had me intrigued though, cause I'm playing Theatre right now and I didn't think of how this cycle of rebirth situation with the mill stage of the play actually also had lettering on it

Not wanting to assume the language cause I'm not sure but now I'm interested in finding out

[carmine field]

Yes, it's the same cycle

Each play is a stage of the Samsara Wheel

[azure bay]

@floral mauve @royal notch the image of Rose is quite obscure. Maybe it's meant to be just a woman and Rose just fitted that role

[floral mauve]

Well, Crow definitely knows something

[azure bay]

The question is, does he know anything beyond the resurrection plan?

[floral mauve]

dunno but perhaps yes since there is no reason to be inconsistent

he knows what to do

[azure bay]

what are you talking about?

[floral mauve]

I thought the ability to forecast or see future

[azure bay]

I mean why?

what does he know?

[floral mauve]

the obvious one, he said that triplets gonna end badly

though could be simply foreshadowing but thats literatral use, if a character does that, its a prophecy not foreshadowing

plus its a direct usage

[azure bay]

here's nothing in particular to indicate that forecast to be supernatural

[floral mauve]

and Ida also has the ability to forecast

[azure bay]

Crow is not Ida and doesn't have her abilities if anything

[floral mauve]

so Crow could simply be better but I would say it must be limited to a certain extent since forecasting is too much for the plot

[floral mauve]

what

I dont get it

[azure bay]

Crow: *sees children not getting along and one of them wanting to kill everyone*
Also crow: poor children

it doesn't have to be as if he saw the future

[floral mauve]

perhaps

[royal notch]

It's strange that the woman in the painting is definitely Rose, even if the backup plan was already set up. It could just be a message to the player for the next scene.