🤔｜theories

[stone talon]

||WAITWAIT IS ALBERT THE CORRUPTED SOUL--||

my head is ticking rn

[azure bay]

||Raising Laura is questionable. I'm sure Harvey's humanoid look is just gameplay tied into a metaphor. But protecting her from supernatural seems more like it||

[azure bay]

||We know from The Cave that Laura killed herself. She could arguably be harassed by some CS but in that case, I'd rather bet on Dale||

[stone talon]

||i can see that, rose asked us to take care of Laura, so I assume that's what she actually meant, but then alberts corrupted soul popped up and now I'm loosing it||

[stone talon]

||id say she was harassed by alberts CS and that causes her to end her own life||

[azure bay]

||It was Dale who killed her in Paradox. And Owl's letter and the chessboard imply that it's Dale's CS who played its role||

||I can't really imagine a compelling reason why Albert would harm Laura||

[stone talon]

||oh im learning a lot today lmao, never knew that||

[azure bay]

||but if he did, Harvey could actually be useful here||

[stone talon]

||maybe instead Albert was taking harveys role and protecting her?||

[azure bay]

did you play Paradox?

[stone talon]

yea, i guess I just didn't pay attention

[azure bay]

ch2

[stone talon]

yep

[azure bay]

a good excuse to replay it :з

and maybe the rest of the series too

[azure bay]

maybe

[stone talon]

I’m replaying in chronological order rn lol, I’ll see if I pick up anything

[azure bay]

Normally I recommend the chronological order only if the basis is already clear

there are so many prequels and spin-off so the focus shifts from the main story

[visual coral]

Do we actually know the reason why Rose decided to resurrect Albert?

[azure bay]

not really

Either he asked or she initiated it on her own

[visual coral]

My guess was that after Laura,who was her only living family member,died she was so heartbroken and and as a last resort decided to revive her peace of crap father.Laura was kinda her life work
if you will

So what if Albret's CS actually did harass Laura to death in order to shift Roses attention and revive?

[azure bay]

1. There's no evidence of Rose hating Albert or at least having reasons to. Quite the opposite

2. There's not enough evidence to link Albert to Laura's death. No motive, no clues, other suspects

3. We know nothing about Rose's relationship with Laura and her general attitude to death

What's more, in the same manner, Rose could be the one to orchestrate Seasons. Not telling that she did but it's an alternative reaction

[visual coral]

1. She knew that he the one keeping Frank in that well all those years. Possibly knew that he killed Ida and Samuel and about her own conception. She's not stupid. I don't know how can anyone not hate the guy knowing that.
2. I gave you a possible motive, Albers CS appearing in UB is the clue.
   3)Rose helped collect sacrifices to make Laura for years. Like I said, she's Rose's life's work. And "I don't want to leave her, but I might have to" tell us that she's definitely cares about her.
   She's her mother for god's sake. I think that's enough clues to assume that she would be devastated

But all of this is just a theory at the end of the day

[azure bay]

the devs said she knew nothing about her conception

I can tell you who won't hate somebody that awful

somebody who truly loves them

[azure bay]

2. There's a huge leap between killing Laura and making Rose resurrect Albert. Another leap is connecting menacing presence to a murder.

3. Rose knows enough to have a different attitude to death. Instead of being devastated why not to resurrect her instead?

another thing

Albert's CS was very likely created by Rose

[visual coral]

damn where can i read all the thing the devs said that are so important to the lore😫

[visual coral]

someone who truly loves a person also wouldn't sacrifice them to revive some old dude

[azure bay]

it wasn't Rose who sacrificed them

it was Frank's revenge

we know nothing about Rose's involvement

[visual coral]

Frank just killed him, he definitely didn't cut his head open and put his brain in a jar

[azure bay]

yes, it was William's CS

like almost all the times before

[visual coral]

And Rose was helping him

[azure bay]

Objectively, Frank's revenge was beneficial for William but unnecessary

Any other cause of death even the most natural one would do

So the scenario of Frank dealing with Albert without William is possible

and again

@visual coral Albert's CS didn't exist until Future Rose launched Power Surge Program

Rose helping Albert and Albert killing Laura can't exist in the same timeline

If TPW Future takes place after Laura's death Albert can't be guilty

If TPW Future takes place without Laura's death then killing Laura wasn't necessary in the 1st place

[visual coral]

I just assumed that Rose knew about what kind of sacrifices are needed since age 10 and continued to communicate with William's CS, who was guiding her through the whole process

[visual coral]

welp, you got me in a corner here

it was just a thought, hope we get answers in the UB

[azure bay]

What I agree about

Albert is associated with problems

maybe he has reasons to chase Laura

maybe TPW timelines are actually the one

maybe they are not and it's Albert who can travel across timelines and do something bad to a different Laura

Maybe Harvey will succeed and Albert's plans will fail

the variables established so far exclude Albert's big involvement. But even if they are wrong we have a considerably bigger space of possibilities that only complicate forecasting

[visual coral]

To avoid major spoilers the UB demo 100% showed us way less then the actual game will include, even in the stations that we got to see. The only thing we can really pick up is that we playing as Harvey. Everything else can flip 180 once the actual game will be released

I also wanna ask something else

[azure bay]

well, we saw enough of Laura to predict her general timeline

and even branching

the question is, how the new lore will recontextualize it

[visual coral]

Someone mention here about the possibility that the whole society of asuras exists. So do asuras procreate like humans? I don't know much about the mythology, but I keep thinking about that little chick in the Mrs. Pigeon's room. How can it exist?

[visual coral]

I mean yeah, but I'm sure the devs showed us only a portion

[azure bay]

or at least shown everything they had at the time

for example, she'd fit greatly into TWD

but TWD didn't exist back in 2015-2017

[azure bay]

The idea of Asura society is based on RL Theatre posters seen in Hotel. The audience is better to be big enough to be able to stay in business.

However asura procreation is a very vague topic. Either that or there's too much of elixir/Paradise-like cults in the world for Owl to drink dogshit

but what about those who did have the elixir or Paradise-like cult?

they seem to become adults right away

[visual coral]

I can't find it rn, but I remember seeing Paradise demo, and they left HUGE portions out, like the whole cube memory thing with the family in masks wasn't there. So UB can have so much more that we don't expect

[azure bay]

not necessarily

Paradise was a new era with a nearly unlimited expansion potential

UB fills in the gaps between the established set of events

some are bigger than the others

but not as vast as pre-Owl era

[visual coral]

Did they become adults right away? They have official ages, if I'm not mistaken. That would mean that they had to grow normally, and that baby asura would confirm it

[azure bay]

If we take Roots at face value they visited the hotel 20 years before they were killed

the youngest would've been around 12

[visual coral]

well that just makes it even more confusing

[visual coral]

I still feel like they deliberately chose to not include that part it the demo to not spoil stuff. Have u seen it?

[azure bay]

the demo?

[visual coral]

ye

[azure bay]

sure thing

even making a tutorial for the secret

[visual coral]

for paradise demo? damn, man you work harder then the devil

[azure bay]

ah

no

I misunderstood

I didn't see anything substantial

only a footage of the level opening screen

[visual coral]

I'll find it and send the link to you then

if i find it

[azure bay]

if you manage, that will be cool

[visual coral]

okay, not learn info from wiki, noted✍️

[azure bay]

why?

it was official

the devs consacrated 5 posts to that before the release

y'know...

yeah, screw the wiki

but for a different reason

because it's edited by fans

but a fun fact. the devs themselves read the wiki to refresh their memory

[visual coral]

bruh where do you get all of that info about the devs? i want in the elite circle too

[azure bay]

I took some time to read the blog and the interviews

[visual coral]

do i have to kill their reincarnated family and bring them the cigars, cause i will

[errant trellis]

ub spoilers and the secret code thing || when you put the code in the suitcase near the man asking for news, you get a camera and when you give it to laura (?) she takes pictures of things for you and i think one is harvey?? and also the shoes of someone else, who i dont think is harvey or the old man ||

|| maybe like mr crow or someone?||

[azure bay]

||these shoes belong to harvey, look at his silhouette in the secret teaser of TPW||

the one in the end

[errant trellis]

||thats his silhouette right?||

[azure bay]

this silhoette

[errant trellis]

||ooh! yeah, but this other photo is also him right? ||

[azure bay]

I'm sure it is

[bright parrot]

||This tree is somehow related to ub though I haven't played tpw so can't say for sure ||

[azure bay]

Play TPW at last

[errant trellis]

i still need to finish it but honestly im too anxious to get a partner haha

[covert wyvern]

should we nickname Itsumi "tell me to go play tpw" ?

[floral mauve]

try to catch one of the event codes when devs post

[bright parrot]

You sayin something

[covert wyvern]

I'm always saying stuff

[vivid owl]

Wait wait wait- ||is Laura the child of Rose and Emma’s son who fell down the well? Is Laura technically a child of incest?||

[bright parrot]

We don't know the father yet

[carmine field]

Probably not. We're not even sure if Laura is Rose's biological daughter.

[visual coral]

Denfinitely not. Laura is a product of sacrifices, she wasn't even born, she was created. Plus, it's kinda of ambiguous if Frank even alive or not at the end of Roots

[carmine field]

I guess you're right, despite Laura not having the same physical characteristics as the sacrifices, such as Frank's brown hair

[visual coral]

She could have physical characteristics of William himself. The guy could've been blond and handsome when he was young

[carmine field]

It's a possibility, despite Aldous actually having dark hair as shown in The Cave.

[visual coral]

Laura doesn't have any resemblance to Rose, that's for sure.

[carmine field]

Then we remember that Albert, Samuel and Emma don't even look like siblings, but they are triplets

[visual coral]

I was just about to say that too

What do you guys think happened to Frank and Leo at the end of Roots?

[bright parrot]

There were many organs required for a body including skin that were not available in ritual

[bright parrot]

Genetics don't play that important role
Almost everyone in vanderbooms have different hair

[bright parrot]

They are said to be dead but that's not proved

@azure bay ||Frank and leo did the ritual in end of roots, and frank lived, became harvey||

[carmine field]

I personally don't think they actually died. Their role during William's resurrection could have been different from Rose's.

[visual coral]

They didn't have a problem with that in TPW

[bright parrot]

After they were taken by roots that's one of the possibility
Other one is roots fed on them

[carmine field]

And if they were supposed to die, why didn't they die sooner?

[visual coral]

If they did die, they could've became the "missing" body parts

[azure bay]

They didn't even have elixir. And yeah, Harvey predates them

[bright parrot]

So I would put pause on frank being harvey theory and expect devs to reveal something about harvey in UB.

But talking about the tree

[azure bay]

It's like saying that Dale will become Nicolas

[bright parrot]

But dale will become deer

[azure bay]

Not Nicolas tho

[bright parrot]

Frank may become parrot asura

Not the predecessor of harvey that was human

[bright parrot]

About the tree

The tree is william right

[azure bay]

There's nothing to support this claim. The Eilanders had masks, Aldous had a crest

[azure bay]

The CS is William

[bright parrot]

The tree in roots is also william

It's said many times

[bright parrot]

Which means they somehow knew what they will become

And use of elixir is nothing new

Which means they know a lot about elixir

[azure bay]

Don't recall any

[azure bay]

Nothing to support that either

[carmine field]

The tree represents the Vanderboom family tree and is perhaps a reference to the tree of life

[azure bay]

This is too vague to connect William to the tree in that way. Could mean he's the one affected by the ritual

[bright parrot]

They knew what they were doing

Use of elixir was rare but not new.

Neither aldous and william nor Caroline are the first ones to synthesize elixir.

Which will probably be told in early human game devs are working on

[azure bay]

Who are "they"?

[bright parrot]

Everyone who took elixir

Everyone who wanted elixir

Aldous

William

Caroline

[carmine field]

This scene implies that William started the tree, or the tree came from him, or that he just watched the tree growth

[bright parrot]

Tree plays an important part in vanderboom family

[carmine field]

He needed this tree to become Laura

[bright parrot]

The word itself means "of the tree"

[azure bay]

It plays important part in Laura's story. It doesn't really make sense for everyone else

[azure bay]

And what exactly did they know?

[carmine field]

Maybe it references the family crest, but whatever

[bright parrot]

We don't know what they knew
And the reason they believed in elixir but elixir was not a rare knowledge it's synthesis was rare

[azure bay]

I think it was just a literal surname for Laura specifically

[azure bay]

Common knowledge without evidence is called a myth

[bright parrot]

If we find what the tree means, we can answer what happened to leo and frank and how rose had laura

Because it's all connected to tree

[bright parrot]

Yes that

[carmine field]

Considering that Laura is the most important character in this lineage, I think it makes sense

[bright parrot]

Here's what metaphorically tree means

James started vanderboom family

But it was aldous and williams who laid the roots

There were predecessors of aldous and williams so maybe the secret ending was sort of teaser

[azure bay]

I don't really find it useful because we base assumptions just on other assumptions. And it could be reverted: based on assumptions what happened to the cousins we may assume what the tree is.

[bright parrot]

The tree shows that Leo rose and frank are directly related to rose

Whereas all the other vanderbooms are related to her indirectly

[azure bay]

The devs deny Frank being Laura's father

[bright parrot]

I didn't say that either

Leo and frank are just related somehow

And all I can think is that they sacrificed themselves for her

I can be wrong

[carmine field]

Laura is the product of the tree, that's why all the branches end up together

[bright parrot]

Read it like a family tree

Directly connected are almost always parents

And indirectly connected are distant relatives

Laura is connected to all the vanderbooms because she's a fragment of everyone

[azure bay]

Crow told William to bring the branches back together... Whatever that means

[visual coral]

Could've Samsara room somehow happened inside the tree?

[azure bay]

I'd say, the tree was somehow a door to a purgatory. The same one where Caroline caught Jakob's soul and created elixir from memories

[carmine field]

I keep my thought. Frank and Leonard dying to the roots rather than being murdered earlier doesn't seem to have a very plausible reason. And there was no mention of their deaths being needed either.

[azure bay]

I agree. But at the same time we have "the last dance" and Leo's organ in paradox movie/comic book dated to the year of Laura's birth

It's still possible

[bright parrot]

@covert wyvern
Do you know what that means?

[carmine field]

In my view, it happened inside the Lake, as the ending imply. But it may have just been a visual aid.

[azure bay]

We saw the roots leading us to some warmly colored methaphysical space

[carmine field]

Also, Samsara Room occurs inside cubes

[azure bay]

They don't seem to act like memories. Could be just a cube-shaped room with no implications

[bright parrot]

Maybe bring linearity to family

Or unite every branch

[carmine field]

Yeah, they don't look like memories, and they have their own meaning reflected on the circle of life.

[bright parrot]

Samsara room is maybe the place where souls get bodies

[carmine field]

So I think I agree, although this metaphysical space may have a connection with the Lake

[bright parrot]

@azure bay Maybe enlightenment does means getting out of samsara cycle

And not getting stuck as deva or asura

[carmine field]

Not sure, William's conditions were very special.

[bright parrot]

Or samsara explained in samsara room means the cycle of birth and death

Excluding deva asura

[azure bay]

It was never about getting stuck. It was about being reborn as them. And Williams rebirth is somehow considered enlightenment too.

The problem is, they are still in the cycle, they'll still die and still will be naturally reborn if nothing changes

[azure bay]

The OG SR was about real enlightenment

It adopted a lot of themes but I doubt it meant anything in RL lore

[covert wyvern]

im inclined to agree with this,

not sure why you pinged me for this, dont think theres anyuthing like that in dutch or w/e lmao

[carmine field]

I think there are several meanings for 'Enlightment', and William getting reborn is one of them

[carmine field]

Actually, I think "finding a way out" fits the real-life meaning of 'Enlightment', but not sure

[azure bay]

I prefer unification approach. It's better to have a broad concept with variations and exceptions than many different one that share the term

[carmine field]

It's been a long time since I read about this

[bright parrot]

So it's not canon

[azure bay]

It more or less does, not in RL tho

[azure bay]

The OG SR isn't. The new one is and it can't be taken at face value, considering its past

[bright parrot]

These ss are from new ones

[carmine field]

Enlightenment*

[azure bay]

?

[bright parrot]

@azure bay these are from new samsara room

And I would like to make few conclusions on basis of this

[azure bay]

I'm aware

[bright parrot]

1.) Asura and deva are not form of samsara cycle
2.) They cant be achieved by samsara cycle

3.) Becoming asura or deva is enlightenment

[azure bay]

Theatre and The Cave tell you are wrong

They are clearly in the wheel

[bright parrot]

But samsara room is the most accurate representation of samara

Right?

[azure bay]

Why?

[bright parrot]

Coz it is samsara

[carmine field]

I just checked

According to Buddhism, when enlightenment is achieved, one frees oneself from the Samsara wheel

[bright parrot]

Yes it is

Moksha

[carmine field]

Bodhi

[azure bay]

The game's an allegory to Buddhist enlightenment but it doesn't have to mean anything for the lore.

Because canonically it's William being reborn as a human

[bright parrot]

Becoming deva or asura is not enlightenment according to buddhism

[azure bay]

And it is, according to RL games

The devs don't copy-paste the religion, they take insiration from it

[bright parrot]

Also I think Samsara room is samsara speedrun

William changed his life forms again and again to get the desired form

And the forms shown in samsara room are the real forms of samsara cycle

[azure bay]

Maybe, maybe not. If he did, it's quite messed up from the timeline pov

[bright parrot]

If they were following the cave cycle then why change

And is that cycle even samsara cycle

[bright parrot]

That's the time skipping part from roots where the clock runs and rose comes out with laura

[azure bay]

Still, doesn't make sense. Laura was born like the same day the ritual took place

At least the same season

[bright parrot]

Rose and laura were inside the clock

[azure bay]

And?

[bright parrot]

And that's where they fast forwarded time

Rose came out with laura

[azure bay]

What does it have to do with fish and geckos?

[bright parrot]

That's when samsara took place

[azure bay]

You imply that William was actually reborn as those animals

He didn't have time for that

Especially inside the clock

@bright parrot

[bright parrot]

It's an order of things

In Buddhism there is order of. Lives based on their no. Of senses and functions
1.) 1 sense Tree
2.) 2 sense sea organism (shells etc.)
3.) 3 senses insects (like ants)
4.) 4 senses (like spider)
5.) 5 senses human and other organisms

So when a human dies

He's reborn as one of these based on his sins and good

Humans are easiest to get enlightenment

So what william did was

He climbed all the way up to become laura

Devs didn't follow the mythology but they did get inspired from it

[azure bay]

When? He was reborn as Laura right then and there

[bright parrot]

Time is relative

[bright parrot]

Let me retrace it for you

Inside clock
Time is slower than outside

And samsara room is inside the clock (if it exists)

And time there is even more slower

Plus william didn't follow the order of things

He rushed it all

[azure bay]

If anywhere, Samsara Room is not in the physical plain

[bright parrot]

Yes

It's not physical

[azure bay]

Not in the clock

[bright parrot]

And that's why he was never reborn before becoming laura

He changed his forms as a CS

[bright parrot]

It all happened when rose and laura were inside the clock

Devs either changed their concept of samsara or that was never samsara in cave or theatre

[azure bay]

Yes, exactly, Laura. That means that anything that happened in SR happened before Laura was formed

[bright parrot]

Before Laura was Physically formed

He skipped the birth and death for all the forms

[azure bay]

My message is, if it happened it didn't happen inside the clock. Because the clock started after William absorbed the sacrifices and turned into a baby

[azure bay]

You are granting too much importance to a late remake of an early non-canon game.

The lore has been established for years

Retconning it is just unwise

[bright parrot]

Samsara room is so short according to our time that it happened in the first fraction of second rose went inside the clock

[azure bay]

Ok, but that doesn't mean it has to contradict Theatre

[bright parrot]

Because the changed the concept to make it canon and it's quiet accurate

[bright parrot]

That's for devs to answer
1.) They updated the concept?
2.) The drawing in cave was not samsara?

[azure bay]

One thing is complementing and exploring particular cases. And completely changing it on a go out of blue is another

Listen

SR is 1st and foremost a remake

[bright parrot]

To make it canon

[azure bay]

Yes

But that means it has no upper hand when it contradicts the established lore

Canonizing non-canon game is clunky

It's not only about the lore

It's about gameplay, themes over all, symbolisms

[bright parrot]

But it's more accurate and samsara is the latest latest game with the concept of samsara.

Have they ever called the drawing in cave samsara cycle

[azure bay]

Just to clear that out

It is bhavacakra in The Cave because it is bhavacakra in Theatre

That's the established lore. End of story

Nothing to discuss here. Unlike SR

[azure bay]

It was never about being true to the source material. What's important is internal consistency

And the latest game is bs

[bright parrot]

Yes it's bhavachakra

[azure bay]

Samsara Room isn't the latest game

[bright parrot]

Samsara room was the latest game with concept of samsara

After that there were

TWD

TPW

UB

[azure bay]

No, it's just a remake of an old non-canon game. If it was something original it'd have much more credibility

It has to rely on the old ideas because otherwise it'd be not SR anymore

[bright parrot]

We both are correct on our own terms and the thing is

RL is followed samsara cycle but just in one game in other games person either becomes a CS or asura

The thing is it was bhava chakra

And I related it to samsara cycle

Which is in samsara room

Because that's what it is called

[azure bay]

The "circle of life" in the beginning makes even less sense

4 of its realls are occupied by the things we consider animals

[bright parrot]

Well samsara cycle is circle of life whereas bhava chakra is not

Or maybe it is

Wait lemme study about ir

So samsara cycle is part of bhava chakra

Samsara room follows the innermost circle

Where as the "bhavchakra" in cave is based on outer circles

[azure bay]

This thing is called circle, not cycle

[bright parrot]

The term chakra

Means wheel

Which sometimes means circle

And other time means cycle

[azure bay]

Ok

[azure bay]

Either way the drawing from the beginning is hard to consider one both from IRL and RL pov's

As you pointed out, they look like animal rebirths rather than different realms of Samsara

[bright parrot]

This circle is about rebirth of organisms

The outer circle is about heaven and hell (narka)

I'll try to find more about the other outer circles

[bright parrot]

That drawing is related to the innermost circle

[azure bay]

I see 5 circles:

1. nirvana
2. 3 sins guarding it
3. heaven and hell???
4. the 6 realms
5. the path of a soul within 1 life

Nothing seems to fit SR

@bright parrot

[bright parrot]

It may not look like it but the inner circle

The one with snake

Shows the circle of life

And bhavachakra of cave is the 6 realms

[azure bay]

but it's not

these are sins and temptations that poison our minds and prevent from reaching enlightenment

[bright parrot]

Its the cycle of rebirth atleast that's what I've read

https://www.shambhala.com/rebirth.html

[azure bay]

these are unawareness, aggression and desire

they keep us inside samsara

like some kind of guardians

or wardens

[bright parrot]

Accepted

[brave coral]

Hey i need help bc I am rlly close to getting the anwser to Why is deer attacking us(in case 23). Here's what i've got: in the roots albert is vengeful and also gets a deer mask. So it would make some sense he can kill you (in cube escape: case 23). But why does he hate detective Dale Vandermeer? Thats the only question i dont have an anwser to.

[ebon aspen]

Did you play paradise?

[brave coral]

yes i did

why?

[ebon aspen]

Well, then yk we also have nicholas with the deer motif

[brave coral]

so its nicholas that the deer is? Still why would he attack dale?

i still dont see a modus operandi

in my opinion it makes more sense having the deer to be albert

[dapper bolt]

There are a lot of deer. Three, actually

However, all of them are differen characters

[carmine field]

They just attack people regardless of who they are

[brave coral]

i am thinking abt the one in case 23

[carmine field]

For example, it was specifically the soul of Mr. Boar who broke the window of the submarine in The Cave, but I think it could be anyone else

[dapper bolt]

Or Laura in the Mill

[brave coral]

Mr boar? in my run it was mr deer

[carmine field]

I'm sure it was Mr. Boar

[brave coral]

But he had antlers

[ebon aspen]

The point is, we dont even know whos the deer soul(s)
About the reason for the attacks, id rather ask why corrupted souls in general go after ppl

[brave coral]

Corrupted souls in most games are useful tho but deer just has a timer

[brave coral]

i had mine a deer

i swear

[dapper bolt]

Some people believe that they may be aggressive because it's only way for them to be reborn

[ebon aspen]

Yeah i believe in smth in those lines

[dapper bolt]

For example, Rabbit in CE:B killed Dale's family, but he apologized and stole the gun

[brave coral]

and then we ||fucked up|| everything for him

[dapper bolt]

That was Dale's fate, I guess

[brave coral]

dale has wierd faith...

why does everything happen on the lake?

[dapper bolt]

Well there a a lot of theories about that

I personally believe that Rusty Lake is absolute evil. And some people are always have to suffer from it to calm it down. As Nicholas said, there would be not paradise without the great sacrifices

[brave coral]

Like?

[brave coral]

why did they not sell the paradise btw, its cursed af

[dapper bolt]

They wanted to enlighten themselves

[brave coral]

well enlightment is the least it can do for the cost of a life and 10 plagues every year huh?

[dapper bolt]

Not every year I think

But yes

[carmine field]

I imagine the Lake to be the core of reality
The memories (which are realities themselves) need the Lake, according to the devs

[floral mauve]

I am not sure whether 10 plagues thing is something that occurs every time for the ritual

Since they didn’t have to deal with the plagues when they decided to sacrifice Caroline

[brave coral]

also has anyone realised tht locusts streach if u spam them rlly quickly in the plague

[visual coral]

They only got cursed by the plagues because they sacrificed Caroline

[floral mauve]

Still unsure cuz we still see plagues on the painting

So they are something occurred before

[dapper bolt]

I think the same, but what would happen if there were not cubes for the Lake? Armageddon, I think

[floral mauve]

Maybe it’s due to the lake also provides second chance since the 10th plague isn’t really a plague but a part of the ritual

[visual coral]

I think the painting is just for gameplay

[carmine field]

It's not that the Lake needs the cubes

the cubes need the Lake

[dapper bolt]

But their dresses look like Renesans ones

[carmine field]

Whatever that means

[visual coral]

the plagues themselves are from the bible, so if it exists in the rl universe it could explain the painting

[dapper bolt]

But there's also the view of Rusty Lake there

With chapel

Nowhere is here

I leave

[azure bay]

Probably they did. David has a favorite one, after all

[floral mauve]

Emmmmm

[azure bay]

I think it's actually deep lore

[visual coral]

God, i love that line🤣

[floral mauve]

So the entire thing of asking Jakob to help them is just to eh, lure him back

[azure bay]

Idk. Jakob was the only one fighting them for some reason

[visual coral]

But David favorite plague probably refers to blood, foreshadowing him turning into a giant fly

[azure bay]

No it was "you took [the frog] my favorite plague"

[visual coral]

It could be ether or. You took my favorite plague aka the blood plague, that is gone as we speak,or the frog in my pants

I like to think it's the first

[floral mauve]

I thought that was Elizabeth’s favourite plague

Fan fic moment

Frog in the pants is cool ngl

[azure bay]

It was right after Jakob took David's frog. It has to be it

[dapper bolt]

Leech in the nose is better)

[visual coral]

We can disagree on that one)

Like I said could be either or

[azure bay]

The probability is on my side

[dapper bolt]

As usual...

[brave coral]

whats 7th plague again?

[azure bay]

Hail?

[brave coral]

whats tht again i dont remember

[azure bay]

Snow

And heavy hail

[visual coral]

you just can't let me have this one can u lol. you took my favorite plague

[brave coral]

ah right

[azure bay]

But it's weird

Doesn't make much sense

The snow was natural

It was legit winter

Preceded by fall

And Hail was summoned only by the snow globe

What is so plague-ish about that?

[visual coral]

Any thoughts on how David got frozen in the ice? Did he detransform from his fly form and fell in the lake?

[dapper bolt]

Magic

Of the lake

[azure bay]

Maybe the fly submerged and only then he turned back human

What if...

The snow isn't natural

[covert wyvern]

well it IS one of the plagues, right

[azure bay]

What if the leaves falling were foreshadowing it?

Unnatural too

Flyes and Boils were foreshadowed too

But it means that the plagues aren't local to Paradise

They covers as far as the eye can see

And here's another old question

Why no plagues in Roots?

[floral mauve]

different ritual

assuming it is due to the ritual

[ebon aspen]

Either they dont really happened that often or we simply didnt saw them happening

Owl sure has been doing some stuff bts

[floral mauve]

probably there is something they did like communicating with the lake to initiate the plagues

idk

take our sacrifices and enlighten us

[visual coral]

what would cause the plagues to happen is Roots?

[azure bay]

Here's the deal

"The sun will turn into darkness and the moon into blood before the day of the lake, the great and magnificent day"

That's the day you kill your 1stborn for enlightenment

And there were 2 sacrifice attempts on Jakob 16 years apart

That makes me expect the darkness preceed them each time

And also the rest of the plagues

And probably repeat each 16 years after that

Which doesn't seem to be the case

[visual coral]

Didn't the plagues happened only because the sacrifice of Caroline was wrong? They sacrificed her instead of the first born plus she withheld the last memory so the ritual wasn't done correctly.
"The sun will turn into darkness and the moon into blood" could be just a fancy way of saying "the night of the the blood moon"

[royal notch]

Some days ago i played TPW at last and i was going to begin a discussion here about it, until i realized i've never had a proper one about Roots. That game is actually full of misteries and inaccuracies that i've always put aside once got the overall important informations (basically William's rebirth). So i'm soon going to put a VERY LONG list of what I don't understand about the game, in order to talk with whoever will want.

[brave coral]

Do we know who killed laura in case: 23?

[visual coral]

it was a suicide

[brave coral]

oh? But what abt evidence?

why would she leave so much evidence leading to that chapel and cabin?

[visual coral]

pretty sure was was Owls and Crows doing

[brave coral]

why would they? most humble and calm ppl on the lake

[visual coral]

yeah soo humble😂 they want Dale to come there,thats why

[brave coral]

Well compare them to corrupted souls...

[visual coral]

corrupted souls are dead tho

[brave coral]

in the same game one helps u get dead too

dont it now?

[visual coral]

don't corrupted souls want Dale dead now?

sry didn't quite get your question there

[floral mauve]

thats the part we need to discuss

it considers still to be a creature

according to samsara

[carmine field]

She took a trip to the Lake

And had some photos of it

[visual coral]

i'd love to, but don't know much about samsara and the whole mythology thing. you should tell me to go study lol

[carmine field]

That's my guess

[royal notch]

1° part!

1. James needed 3 gems to enter home, but one was inside. Why? The brothers wants him to start his family!
2. We get that gem "thanks to" Mr Crow corrupted soul. This corrupted soul is also repeatedly seen during the game. How is he corrupted? He's alive!
3. Did James see that? If yes, why didn't flee scared?
4. Why the windows are bloody? Why James didn't had any problem with that?
5. Why James didn't wake up when William's body fell off the big clock? It must have done a lot of noise since it even broke it!
6. Where did body and golden clock end to? Did William's corrupted soul insert it in its mouth and then buried the body itself? But if the objective was getting his heart as sacrifice, why couldn't the brothers do it before James arrival (or even before sending the letter)? If the objective was instead to show the body to James, what was the reason? They would scare him! And if James has actually seen everything, why is he still staying? Did he just bury his uncle without questioning who put him there, why he's dead or how did it get out "alone"?
7. Whose is the hand in the cabinet in the garden? Who put that there? If James or William's corrupted soul wanted the ring they could simply get it before the burial. James must have seen it to get the ring, so why didn't he (again) question about that?
8. The house offers a great view of the Lake and therefore of the hotel: with binoculars we can see the enlighteneds! They should keep a low profile, why aren't they worried? And why didn't any other Vanderboom investigate about them? Is it possible that during all those years only James saw them?
   9)Why the HECK didn't Mary give milk to all the children?How can she choose what drink give to each of them?
9. How could James not read the sign explaining how the elixir works? But it's true that; if he saw it, he wouldn't die! How could the brothers run such a risk?
10. Did Emma really got pregnant by flowers?
11. Can Albert really change the ambient with masks?

[floral mauve]

2. I dont agree Crow is corrupted since no static fuzzy figure, more like a shadow, the other bird CS figure later in game is nowhere close to the one we see at The house

for me the crow shadow didnt help James, more like James punhed the window himself to get the gem xd

Crow was simply watching in the dark

[carmine field]

Samsara Wheel in a nutshell

6 realms of existence. One may die and be reborn to change their realm, although there appear to be exceptions, which are open to discussion.

We have:

• Deva: we don't know much about it, though Dale is a deva. Devas seem to be very powerful and are able to deal with the corrupted souls.
• Asura: the hybrids/anthropomorphic animals. They are immortal and some are able to disguise as humans.
• Manush: the humans
• Tanurya: the animals
• Narak: the forest below the Lake
• Preta: the corrupted souls

@royal notch

[carmine field]

about that

ah

wrong ping

Sorry

@visual coral

[floral mauve]

about 6, maybe they want James to discover the elixir leftovers, though idk why, maybe its side experiment
8 is an interesting point but maybe its puzzle purpose and lorewise telling us that the guests are frequent visitors for a while
10 is an easy one, he simply read the notes but I dont think he actually know what does it do thats why he gave to doggo first
12 dunno, maybe its reflecting his inside emotion

[visual coral]

It's okay, thank you kind stranger

i'll educate myself

[floral mauve]

the other questions u had could be mostly game atmosphere and puzzle purposes

I mean Crow probably goofy around quite often before he realised elixir leftovers are kinda limited

since they managed to get at least 2 humans into asura

[visual coral]

'kay, I have questions now.
1.How do we know that's Dale's a deva?
2.How does Naraka(the forest) connect to those shrooms in Seasons?
3.Why is there only 6 parts in this wheel from cave, but not 8?
4.Which realm is the side with Aldous, William and Laura supposed to represent? And the question mark?

[carmine field]

1- Each realm of the wheel is a show in Cube Escape: Theatre and have a respective picture. The deva picture has Dale's reflection.

There are other evidences as well, but this is the main one.

At least Dale will become a deva at the end of his journey.

[carmine field]

3- I mistook the number. Actually, there are 6 realms.

Thanks

[carmine field]

4- They are humans. The question mark is deva.

[visual coral]

ooh, that's clears most of the questions then. sorry, i should have counted the realms myself, it was dumb of me. Thanks a lot

So, you were saying he corrupted souls still considered "creatures'' according to samsara. If it's the realms of existence, then being a ghost still counts as form of existing. They're still dead

[carmine field]

yep

[visual coral]

but still, what is up with those shrooms...why are they connected to naraka?

[carmine field]

Not sure, but there must be some theories out there about that

[visual coral]

Okay, I can answer only some of your questions, but smarter people will show up later to help you.
First let's clear something up: Most of the puzzles that we see do not actually happen, it's purely for gameplay.
Here's what I can say:
7)That hand is a recurring character in Rusty lake, known as simply the hand. And again James most likely did not see it, he probably just had the ring on him. The puzzles are for us.
9)I've been asking myself the same thing. But I guess if at least one of the Vanderboom triplets wasn't brain damaged the story wouldn't happen.
10)The sign was for gameplay. James didn't see it. He created the elixir from Williams leftover ingredients.
11)Yes, she indeed was. It was a magical flower.
12)He can.

[royal notch]

2° part!
13) Why is Ida at first being so misterious with Samuel?
14) Can Albert actually see Mr Crow corrupted soul? What could the soul achieve by his actions?
15) Can Albert even see William's corrupted soul?
16) What actually happened in 1904? How did Mary die? How could Albert kidnap 2 people? Where do all the blood come from? What about the dolls? Who wrote the quote? What did Leonard saw? Did it all happen instantly or there has been a longer time span between this and Albert's revenge?
17) Okay, we know Rose is quite a strange and creepy character, but why would she actually help to reincarnate a person she never knew?
18) Timepieces are needed to open the gate. How could then the sacrifices go behind it after being collected? And why the 3 grandchildren are the chosen ones, each one with their specific clock? If they are so important, why didn't the brothers help them directly in finding them?
19) What happened during the war? How could Leonard get saved by William's corrupted soul, distant kilometers? How could he get saved with A GAS MASK by a bomb? Losing only one leg? And what did William's corrupted soul exactly do, how could he "enter his mind"? And how did he get the code?
20) Why did Frank decided to ask for help only 33 years later?
21) Maybe i'm overseeing with this one, but why did Rose give Frank actual pee?
22) How could Albert and Frank cohabit without killing each other for 2 years? Did Frank got hidden (even though Albert would notice his absence in the well) or did simply Rose's presence enough to avoid any unnecessary action? When was the time for the checkmate decided?
23) Why did Frank make his chess piece out of a potato?
24) Is Frank aware of the necessity to gather sacrifices? He proceeded in getting Albert's brain (he spelled the "cerebrum" word on the chessboard), he gave spontaneously his hair and was present when Rose collected her blood. Why does he agree too in resurrecting William's corrupted soul?

[ebon aspen]

13. flirting techniques
14. idk about that but william surely can
15. considering rosa needed an ouija board, id say no
16. either albert entered berserk mode or everybody but him entered a trance
17. bc william manipulated everybody from his family to do so, rose was just another pawn
18. i didnt quite understand your question
19. it looks like he was doing memory trip, leonard never came back to life or smth
20. he prolly couldnt do anything prior to that, rose sure is an angel
21. nutrition for the funsies
22. preparation
23. again, for the funsies (the og piece prolly was lost)
24. yes(?)

And about why they played chess, thats how a schizo psycho and someone that spend most of his life inside a well solve family issues

[floral mauve]

win riz

[royal notch]

3° part.
25) Where did Leonard got the treasure map from? Did someone give it to him? Why not giving him directly his timepiece?
26) At the graveyard, a skeleton has been unearthed. Did Rose do it or it's been someone else (the shovel was inside)? If it's been someone else who was it? Is it William's body? Why is necessary to complete it to get the clock? Couldn't she just get it by opening it's mouth? How could it move by itself once complete? Couldn't William's corrupted soul just conserving it during the years to give it to her now?
27) Why so many dates are wrong?
28) How did exactly the rebirth work? We're all 3 aware of what was going on? How can the big clock interact with the tree of life? Did Leonard and Frank die? How could the big clock protect Rose? Why does the tree need other than the sacrifices even to be connected with the grandchildren? How much time did it last the entire process? The big clock did just speed up or was that a fast forward? If it had been real time passing, how long was it? How did Rose survive inside the big clock? If it had been instantaneous, did the tree die in so little time (maybe because passing its life to Laura?)? Once released, did Rose just step out of the big clock or found herself in the middle of the Lake? And, finally, how was Laura actually born? Did Rose got pregnant and gave a classic birth, or did baby Laura got "released" in the Lake as well?
28 questions! I'm sorry to have polluted in such a way this channel, but i am ready now to hear all of your opinion about this. Feel free to ping me, even if i have to say I'm not sure i'll be answering immediately. Thank you in advance for the patience!

[royal notch]

For me it had to be a corrupted soul since it disappear in front of you without any trace. And also it was too close to the window to be in the shadows. Maybe yes, James got the gem by himself, but that doesn't explain why it was inside the house.

[royal notch]

I think they wanted indeed James discovering the secret lab since they couldn't eliminate all the evidences about it, making sure he would either die, and therefore making the rest of the family classify the elixir as dangerous (as happened), or consider the elixir as mortal, preventing the rest of the family from taking it (in case the dog died). Though that note seems quite clear: the elixir works with couplets, one gets enlightened, the other dies. But if James had read it and saw the dog survive, he wouldn't take it, knowing the consequence. That's why i consider it a big risk. About Albert's masks I also thought about the impossibility of such a real power but TPW seems to confirm the opposite.

[royal notch]

I agree that most of the puzzle in this universe are simply "special" (for example, the fish in the bear trap), but still sometimes we have to focus on specific things since this universe gives a really big importance to simbolism! About the hand, it's true it's a recurrent image in many games, but this time it seems different: we manage to see the entirety of it and it seems definitely dead, while it always show up as an alive entity. That's why i tend to think it's more important, especially having a fundamental object to carry on the future of the Vanderbooms. I also see Mary's unjustified preferences quite oversimplifying.

[royal notch]

The massacre of 1904 is the most misterious part of the game i would love to understand, even though I'm afraid some dates on the games are just wrong. About Rose: it's true that William's corrupted soul manipulated everyone, but never in a direct way, he just controlled everything was going well. The attempt of communicate with Rose is something definitely different from the rest. Was I was trying to say in the 18° question was that the timepieces are necessary to open the gate. At the end of the game we see all the sacrifices behind it: how? And I was also wondering why Rose, Frank and Leonard SPECIFICALLY were the ones needed for the final. Leonard's memory trip it's weird to explain why William's corrupted soul intervent has been necessary (if it has been). And finally, i'm wondering WHY Frank couldn't do anything prior 1924; just some screams would attract anyone attention.

Now it's late here and i'll go to bed, ping me when you're wanting to continue.

[floral mauve]

I dont see the reason of had

asura certainly can do the same plus as I said maybe James didnt see him

[floral mauve]

about this, its quite funny, technically speaking, elixir works only in pair

if James doesnt die, dog wont be immortal

[carmine field]

I disagree. Mr. Crow's shadow behind the window had no thorns, unlike other corrupted souls

And its shape is quite different from the corrupted soul that helps Albert

I imagine it was just Mr. Crow helping William while foreshadowing his late appearances

[floral mauve]

thats what I said

[carmine field]

🛐

[pure spindle]

I made a post about my theory about Harvey 🦜
https://www.tumblr.com/fleecal/717070565108744193/my-theory-about-harvey

[carmine field]

It's an interesting theory, although it conflicts with the fact that the samsara wheel classifies Harvey as just an animal

[pure spindle]

Not if Harvey was originally a parrot given immortality like Dog was

[carmine field]

Not sure how that would work. Still, good theory

I disagree with the conclusion that Harvey would have lived around 1400. Maybe the devs just like the number 14, but who knows

[pure spindle]

Maybe

[floral mauve]

Valid point

Though 1400s part is quite a leap

But rest is good

[pure spindle]

TY

[carmine field]

I almost forgot, but the painting with the title "The Lady of the Lake" is different from the real life painting

To the point of having a different name and a different painter within the universe

[pure spindle]

I know, but it is based on a real painting painted in the Renaissance.

[carmine field]

yeah

[azure bay]

There's no particular reason to think so. "Correlation doesn't mean causation"

At the same time:

1. Caroline knew about the plagues.
2. The ancestors knew about the plagues.
3. David had a favorite one so early before seeing the rest.
4. The 10th plague, the sacrifice, is commited by the familly and was attempted even earlier
5. This sacrifice is meant to be made during a special day which is preceded by another plague, according to a prophecy. The Darkness is the 9th plague. So basically the prophecy is "Commit the plague 10 the day after the plague 9"

[azure bay]

1. Things that don't make sense like that look like a mere gameplay.

2a) Looking corrupted doesn't mean being corrupted. Leo's flashbacks (except the 1st one) and the Owl from The Locusts plague aren't corrupted despite the looks.

2b) As Stray said, the bird CS we see later on doesn't really look like Crow. Maybe it's not him.

2c) Corruption is actually a pretty big deal. More so is curing it. One does not simply corrupt behind the scenes. One does not simply goes back to normal. We need to see how all that happened before calling Crow corrupted. Or at least get more evidence.

2d) According to the trailer, originally it was meant to be a normal CS, likely William. The change could be hasty and may not mean much.

3. Likely didn't, we play mostly as William.

4. They are bloody because we need to open a cabinet. Also to show that somebody died. So gameplay+symbolism

5. He just didn't, we have to deal with it.

6a) The timepiece clearly went into the grave raided by Rose muuuuuch later. So could be the body. So yeah, likely William did it.

6b)Maybe the brothers did take it before the arrival but gameplay-wise the player needs to see it. The heart is the 1st sacrifice, it establishes the goal "to collect them all".

6c)James likely saw nothing.

7a) I think it's just a spooky hand we aren't meant to question. Partially looks like other hands we see here and there. One of them even had a ring in Hotel. Could be a reference.

7b) Or, if we do overthink, these hands are actually a thing and are considered pests or something.

8. Again, we play as William and it's him who sees the guests. I don't think Humans can see them unless they are meant to. Crow was standing right there behind the fense and the children saw nothing.

9. She likely did. Sooner or later. Gameplay and possibly symbolism.

[azure bay]

10. Option 1: it's there to be seen by the player and not James. So another gameplay element.

Option 2: James actually saw that but mistead. Probably thought that the whole batch would be poisonous so he tested it on the dog.

11. Option 1: She did get pregnant by a magical flower. (And later on Rose got pregnant by a magical tree)

Option 2: It's a metaphor of being "deflowered" by a man who left

12. TPW says he can.

[azure bay]

13. She's misterious with William

14a) Again, not enough evidence to call it Crow and make sense of it.

14b) We don't know if Albert could see it.

14c) A speculation: the CS could achieve chaos and/or the sacrifices.

15. No, only Ida and those who's near death. Like Emma and Leo.

16a) Mary likely had a heart attack. Probably some time after the incident.

16b) Took control over them using voodoo magic.

16c) Either the victim's blood or symbolism.

16d) Don't you know the voodoo doll trope?

16e) Definitely symbolism.

16d) I think it was a sequence of events with some time passing between them.

17. I think Rose is just a kind soul.

18a) Either gameplay or CS can canonically teleport and go through walls or the gate is something more than metal bars blocking the altar.

18b) I think it's something to do with the ritual, not with chosen ones. These aren't just keys to open the gate, they start to glow when the roots intangle their respective owners.

19a) CS can teleport. In this specific case William could go back in time via Leo's flashbacks like Dale saved his parents via memoty cubes.

19b) The grenade that took Leo's leg was a gas grenade. It still explodes. That's why it took the leg and that's why gasmask was useful.

19c) The code is likely just another gameplay element.

20. Lack of materials?

21. Maybe she did. Maybe didn't.

22a) I think she did hide him until he got stronger and Albert got weaker due to his age. But that's still just a guess.

22b) The game of chess was partially symbolic. It reflects the their relationship. Alber "checkmated" Frank when he was a kid and Frank retaliated decades later.

23. That doesn't make much sense but that represents the potato given Frank by Albert in The Brood chapter. Symbolism, I think.

24a) I don't think Frank knows the plan details if anything.

24b) Cerebrum is just a foreshadowing. William took the brain and the hair, no one else was required. Rose could give her blood willingly or by accident

[azure bay]

24c) Frank trusted her

[azure bay]

25. Some theorize the map comes from Ida. But actually we don't know.

26. Gameplay, gameplay, gameplay. What I think actually happened, Rose exhumated only William with the timepiece. That's a good place to hide it.

27. The wrong dates are mostly those concerned by the code puzzle. The rest are mostly ok and could just mean that some of Roots chapter take longer that we take at face value.

28a) We have no idea how the ritual works

28b) There's a little evidence that they could die but it's not enough to make a conclusion.

28c) The clock was't about protecting Rose. It was likely about fastforwarding time. Laura's file says she was born that very season.

28b) In case the devs are wrong, the clock was just about sustaining Rose and 9 months passed... Obviously

28c) About the tree dying, you said it yourself. Why do you have to ask? We all've seen just as much as you did.

28d) We know nothing about how Rose got to the lake.

[visual coral]

Correlation is a good reason to assume causation. If you ate a burger made from a sick livestock and got sick yourself, then that burger was likely the reason.
But I agree with of your points. And David clearly always been a weirdo and probably liked playing with frogs even before the plagues

[brave coral]

In paradise, why is locusts a plague? Unless a person interacts with them and plays correct notes that praying mantis dont come...

And the worst thing grasshoppers would do is scare the shit out of me and others who frights them

[azure bay]

That looks like gameplay

And originally, locusts were a plague because they were eating crops

[brave coral]

So egyptians had desiesed lifesctock and grasshoppers who ate crops? Damn!

Why was darkness a plague?

[royal notch]

The thorns aren't a fundamental point to recognize corruption, in many occasion these aren't represented due to distance. For example, William's one doesn't have it during the entirety of Samsara Room. The reason i seem so convinced about it being Mr Crow's one is because of the diversity of the other birdied corrupted souls and because the nearest bird it evokes is a crow. My opinion would be that only at the beginning of the game it gets well represented because very close. Though i can't give a reason why is he corrupted and how.

[royal notch]

I'm not saying corruption is a clear thing (even if i talked in the past about some repetitions), in fact I'm wondering if it could be possible and how it could be possible. And if William's corrupted soul buried himself his body i don't understand why he should have done that later as you say.

[royal notch]

About the masks, i recognize TPW comfirms that, but still it seems such an enormous power if you consider it. Imagine an entire region getting flooded because a guy wore a particular mask. Isn't this a thing to worry about?

[royal notch]

I don't know what "trope" means, but i don't understand if Albert used the dolls right at that moment: on one side we see much blood, a traumatized child and the dolls on the wall, on the other we see the misdeed happening in a different part of the house with Samuel dressed up with a different outfit. It's hard to say when what exactly happened. About the gate, what's your actual opinion?

[royal notch]

About the 18°, i agree that the timepieces aren't enough without the right owners, that's why i asked why Rose, Frank and Leonard's destiny is to resurrect William, and each one with a specific clock.

[royal notch]

In general, the reason i have to ask is that i like trying to give a sense about things without a clear one starting from precedent rappresentations, like a theorist do. So yeah, everyone see the same thing, but everyone can see it in a different way from each other, giving occasion to dialogue.

[silver ruin]

This is a lot of texts-

[royal notch]

Sorry, i tend to give my thoughts in full to be better understood.

And i'm also very slow in typing!

[covert wyvern]

@silver ruin what an odd remark, just don't read em if you don't want to.

[silver ruin]

Oh oki

[silver ruin]

Its oke!

[azure bay]

I think Albert had a control over these powers

[azure bay]

something isn't literal, something doesn't happen continuously. There was a clear time skip in Family Band, Voodoo takes place in between. Then there's not much problem in Albert coming back to that room to pin down the dolls but I think it was rather symbolic than literal

[azure bay]

I don't think the 3 were actually chosen ones in a high sense. I think anyone would do just as well. The ritual just required 3 more living persons. Somehow...

[royal notch]

But it seems that Aldous was looking forward to them exactly every time he communicates with William's corrupted soul. First he states that the children's legacy will be important, then he advise his brother to be sure the grandchildren will find the timepieces. Their role seems to have already been decided, like Dale's one later.

[azure bay]

Since I don't see a reason for their big importance I rationalize everything in a way that they were just the most suitable candidates available

Crow could mean Laura, for example

not the grandchildren (back in the garden)

as for the timepieces for one reason or another they could be the only ones who could find them

or at least the 3 last standing Vanderbooms that didn't want to kill each other

and could actually work as a team

[royal notch]

But then, in the opposite case, if they couldn't be a team (for a reason or another) the rebirth had to happen even later on.

Meanwhile, Dale is growing.

[azure bay]

initially Owl had nothing to do with William's rebirth

[royal notch]

Yes. Nor with Dale.

[azure bay]

in order to create the Plan Owl needed several independent pieces of knowledge

and we don't really know when he got the one about William

[royal notch]

It's sure though he knew the Alchemists Brothers since before the creation of the elixir. Mr Owl could simply entrust William's rebirth to his brother, maybe as a family issue.

But still this issue had to be solved in proper time, to match it with the future chosen one.

[azure bay]

no, it had to be the brothers' plan all along. They knew one of them would die. So to be fair, they prepared a backdoor ritual for the unlucky one

If Owl knew he'd need the elixir supply to sustain himself from the start he'd take care of getting William's journals while they were still available

and wouldn't have to drink dogshit

[royal notch]

I agree with this and don't see how it contrasts with what i'm saying. What i meanis that basically Laura was needed in time, in order to match with Dale. That's why i think the grandchildren's role was already chosen from the start.

[azure bay]

the reason they needed Laura was elixir

if it was just to sacrifice her for Dale's enlightenment any other person would do

and we don't know when Owl realized that Laura would be an elixir source

[royal notch]

What if he knew from the start, and simply there hasn't ever been any journal?

[azure bay]

there was the journal and James was following it

[royal notch]

More than a journal, it seemed a diary. We don't know if there had been there any specific passage about its alchemy.

Enough to light on James' curiosity.

[azure bay]

it was documenting the elixir creation and following it James succeded

and he isn't considered the creator

"the last creator" is William

[royal notch]

Wait, are you talking about the drawing in the underground lab?

Or the book he was reading shortly before?

[azure bay]

I guess, both

the pages could belong to the journal

but that doesn't really matter

James was the one who followed

without understanding

that's why he died

[royal notch]

Here i though you were talking of the book. About the painting, that seems quite the last passage of the entire process: we don't know what elements are in those 4 bottles, and perhaps the big container isn't even empty from the start! I guess this passage could be known even by the enlighteneds right now, being clearly written, thought it's very likely only a small part of the recipe. The rest is still in William's mind.

[azure bay]

still

there were leftovers

they could be taken, could be used

Owl would have even more elixir than he got by acquiring the dog that drank some

[royal notch]

Why are you sure about that?

[azure bay]

pure math

dog drank a half of the portion at most

the other half was for James

add the time the dog was pooping freely

without the elixir being harvested and extracted

so much loss

[royal notch]

Right. What do you think about that?

[azure bay]

I think Owl was clueless and because of that he lost so many opportunities

at some point he figured everything out but when?

was it before William was reborn or after?

If we assume that Owl learnt everything right after discovering Dale in Hotel, it still took place after Frank was born

and even Leonard

it was so lucky Albert was so sadistic and Frank survived for all these years

[royal notch]

Probably. But it still seems that Aldous was waiting specifically for them.

[azure bay]

even more so lucky

they could lose both Frank and Leo long before they could be usefull

Frank could die

and Leo was born on the road

what if Ida didn't return for the marriage?

oh

in that case, they'd lose Rose as well

[royal notch]

I find too the theme of "destiny" quite oversimplifying and lovey dovey, but it seems many times necessary.

[azure bay]

or you can completely throw it away and assume that anyone would do

any supposed child. or grandchild for that matter

[royal notch]

Rose though seems quite revelant.

Being able to communicate with a ghost without getting scared.

I mean, the family tree would be important in its entirety.

Giving also a nice simbolism, typical of these games.

It could be it was just necessary to get 10 body parts of the same family and the last 3 people of the legacy, but this way it seems quite empty. I prefer seeing everyone with a specific role. Like Mr Owl said in Paradox.

[azure bay]

well, that's natural that u're seeking some big importance behind every thing

that's how our brains work

only that's unrealistic

which may hurt the impression too

[royal notch]

This rolls me back to Hotel. At the end we clearly see the future; that's probably how the enlighteneds get to know any important information in right time. But how can they keep to create golden cubes? Wasn't it so "expensive", since we have seen the entire process in the cave?

[azure bay]

there was only 1 golden cube

in their history

the cube in the Hotel was white

and somehow it was brought to Owl as the 5th dinner

[royal notch]

I know, but i though the idea of a "golden" cube to watch the future came later, so i assumed it was one. It doesn't explain where it came out from. Or, if it was an ACTUAL white cube, why it was showing the future.

[azure bay]

it can't be retconned to be golden

Owl's got it after killing and probably corrupting the 5 guests

it was their memory of seeing Dale in the elevator

[royal notch]

Which never happened.

Not at that time, obviously.

[azure bay]

"the memories are not only the key to the past"

[royal notch]

But then it should be easy watching the future with every cube.

[azure bay]

it wasn't easy in Hotel

they had to kill 5 persons

and maybe do something beyond that

[royal notch]

That's where i wanted to go. Just getting the cube and seeing the future seems too simple.

In the cave 2 specific minds, 2 specific cubes and a blue one were needed. And in TPW it seemed to me that the cube was pure energy that time travelled from the year of the future memory. I mean, hard processes.

[azure bay]

not sure what was the role of these 2 minds

it's clear for the memory cubes

and somewhat clear for the blue one

but these 2 seem redundant

[royal notch]

What do you mean?

[azure bay]

I mean I don't understand what did Dale and Laura вщ in The cave beyond Paradox

[royal notch]

I neither know, what i wanted to do was underline the difficulty of gaining a vision of the future.

And therefore the weirdness of hotel final.

[azure bay]

Not sure if TGC is synonymous to seeing future

in Dale's case specifically

[floral mauve]

I believe so as well, they probably goofy around before realising the elixir leftovers are limited, they managed to give bat toad and even leave some for James💀

They were probably giving out as experimental targets to see more effects of elixir

[royal notch]

The book in the cave seems quite specific for every cube.

[azure bay]

no, it's pretty vague. Caroline was telling too that her memories were key to Jakob's future. And the result of her elixir formula was meant to be a golden cube too

but it was metaphoric

[floral mauve]

Also, there is something that requires interpretation, how does Owl know guests memories can form a prophecy

That part isn’t even logical tbh

If you think about it

[royal notch]

Yeah. It seems only the golden cube can show a future memory, like only the blue can make you revive it.

[floral mauve]

Not really for golden cube

It seems that it changes

Reality

[azure bay]

the blue one is just a time bending tool

and a white one was clearly showing the future

so screw the golden cube

unless you're looking for enlightenment

[royal notch]

But Albert wasn't.

[azure bay]

I suppose, his GC was needed to leave the reality itself

or he didn't know how to get the future more conventionally

or how to get that specific future in that specific timeline Rose was helping him from

[royal notch]

What about the gate? How could the sacrifices go beyond it?

[azure bay]

I told you the CS can teleport and go through walls

[royal notch]

Then why is there a gate at all? If it's needed to prevent other people to mess with those, it could just stay closed.

[azure bay]

I think the gate is something bigger than these bars before the altar

The roots come down to it and lead into a purgatory

[royal notch]

I better go to study now. Bye!

[bright parrot]

@azure bay you doubted me on frank being harvey

So how can you explain davind being rabbit

[azure bay]

David preceded Rabbit

David stopped existing when he became Rabbit

here you try to connect 2 characters interracting with one another

and one of them didn't even have access to enlightenment

unlike David

[bright parrot]

Which 2

[azure bay]

let me reiterate everything

[bright parrot]

Also how everyone in paradise got enlightenment after jakobs death or are they really eilanders

[bright parrot]

Yeah

[azure bay]

1. Frank can't be enlightened
2. Harvey coexisted with Frank

Batman can't be in the same room with Bruce Wayne

[bright parrot]

It can if bruce wayne is not batman

If someone else in batman

Just like 2 rabbits in hotel

[azure bay]

thereforem Frank isn't Harvey

[azure bay]

CS can time travel

[bright parrot]

At that moment what about future
Also I believe UB will reveal something about harvey

So I put that frank harvey theory on pause

I want you to focus on david being rabbit

[bright parrot]

With blue cube?

[azure bay]

you can forget it, there's no evidence of Frank being Harvey or having any chance of becoming him

[bright parrot]

It isn't

Till it is

Anyone can be harvey

[azure bay]

then Rose is Harvey too

[bright parrot]

Can be

In future maybe

If that's a personality trait type thingie

[azure bay]

if everyone can be, there's no sense in theorizing about it

[bright parrot]

It is

Because there is some logic behind asura of every human

That's what we've seen in roots and paradise

[bright parrot]

It's like many people were bruce wayne
Micheal Keaton
Christian bale
Robert Pattinson

But everyone is different

Because harvey has the most messed up timeline

And we are drifting from the main question

Do CS time travel with blue cubes

@azure bay

[azure bay]

maybe, maybe not

[bright parrot]

I think they do

But birthday contradicts it

Unless we know how birthday really happened

[azure bay]

it could be blue cube rolling back time, it could be entering any other cube, it could be just natural for CS

[bright parrot]

We've seen very less proper CS

Time travel like a high bet

Even asura cannot do it

[azure bay]

I wouldn't count asuras

they are different creatures

with their own sets of powers

CS don't have to rely on them

as a matter of fact, the window Rabbit is Mr. Rabbit

[bright parrot]

@azure bay Here's some evidence on machine in cave end is the memory extraction machine

This is from birthday

Which happens to be after paradox

[royal notch]

The same message is seen immediately after Case 23, though.

[azure bay]

and this is form Case 23. Before Paradox

[bright parrot]

But how

[azure bay]

the lake magic is my guess

they are not excracted

he still recognizes them as his memories

he still remembers them

[bright parrot]

Are we sure this is before paradox

And not in between

[azure bay]

Dale: takes the elevator down

[bright parrot]

Because he was conscious in elevator

Atleast in birthday and theatre

[azure bay]

also Dale:

[bright parrot]

This could be paradox

He also lived his past in paradox

[royal notch]

He was going back up there.

[azure bay]

no, "Finally" means that happening right then before he reached the bottom

[bright parrot]

Any evidence

[azure bay]

it's you who need to give more evidence. Because it's you who's overcomplicating things

Dale reached the elevator and "finally" reached the lake etc. - that what we see

[bright parrot]

But didn't he already reached the lake in part 4

The word "Finally" must mean something

[azure bay]

he wasn't submerged

[bright parrot]

He reached the depths of lake

Maybe

[azure bay]

before he was only close

loading

[bright parrot]

After crow took him to cabin

Cabin is in lake

[royal notch]

(and without a reason to take a swim)

[azure bay]

Reaching the lake here means going into it

the chapel is on the shore too

it has the direct access

and it's still "close"

[bright parrot]

And finnally may mean that he was in deapth in white cube

Though he saw memories floating

[azure bay]

no

because 1st he needs to reach the bottom

and walk through the CS

[bright parrot]

Yeah narka

He'll have to walk through narka

[carmine field]

And this rock? Does it already have any use?

[bright parrot]

https://rusty-lake.fandom.com/wiki/Mrs._Pigeon

Apparantly Mrs. Pigeon is the the pigeon in Harvey's box

[carmine field]

.

[tiny kelp]

it’s possible, but not likely i dont think

[carmine field]

I think it hardly would be, unless that corrupted soul attacking the box was actually Mrs. Pigeon acting with a modus operandi similar to Mr. Deer in Case 23

which I don't completely discard, considering that corrupted soul had wings

[azure bay]

Not that we know of

[azure bay]

And you really trust the wiki?

[bright parrot]

I don't follow wiki like bible but RL follows 1 bird rule or smth so why not

But that would mean every other eilander was also born as their asura

[azure bay]

There are times when it doesn't make sense

Mr. Boar Paradise achievement, for instance

[bright parrot]

RL moment

[azure bay]

Mr. Bat supposedly being wild in The Cave

So is the pigeon

Reusing an animal sprite for an asura and vise versa seems more likely

[bright parrot]

RL adds npc cautiously
So every npc is important I guess

[azure bay]

Sorry, you know nothing

[bright parrot]

Same spirit different forms?

[bright parrot]

Why you must hurt me in that way

[azure bay]

That's our reality, you know nothing, I know nothing

We can't get into the dev's head

[bright parrot]

Sometimes the real question is

Are we over analysing

[azure bay]

Of course we do

Almost always

[azure bay]

Still doesn't make much sense.

[bright parrot]

I was asking
"Same spirit different forms/bodies"
Is that what you were trying to say

[azure bay]

No, same sprite, different characters

A 2D game asset

3D assets are called models, and 2D are called sprites

Only the analogy of 7810 somewhat seems sensible. Still off because the deer didn't help Dale

Unlike the pigeon

[bright parrot]

Nature I guess

Nicholas was not so friendly

Though yeah that theory is contradictory

We see david kill the rabbit in paradise

[azure bay]

The rabbit was just a rabbit

The boar was just an easter egg

The bat is likely just a bat

And pigeon that may or may not represent a hugry corrupted soul probably wouldn't be that friendly

[plain token]

you can also find the angle fish in the ice where Elizabeth is skating,in the submarine

[carmine field]

I like that there are many references between The Cave and Paradise

[tawny pulsar]

is there any real connecting dot from Arles to other games?

[azure bay]

potentially the RL Hotel achievement

[tawny pulsar]

this would mean the hotel was constructed by either 1888 (when vincent cut off his ear) or 1890 (when vincent van gogh died)

[azure bay]

it wouldn't, we see it in 1860

[tawny pulsar]

from roots?

[azure bay]

yep

[pure spindle]

Tbh, I think Arles is just there for "Vibes"

[plain token]

could this be for Mr owl giving us the deer skull found in Mr dear’ s room or even mr himself

[azure bay]

Many people think it's Mr. Crow. But Crow, Owl - neither makes sense under normal circumstances

corruption is a too big deal to happen behind the scenes

more so getting rid of it

[plain token]

Right it’s corrupted

at first I thought it could be the corrupted soul from Samsara Room but I don’t think that’s very probable

[azure bay]

The bird-like William was rather taken from the time before RL

from the OG Samsara Room released in 2013

[pure spindle]

It's Harvey /j

[azure bay]

you can't even imagine how many hairs this /j have spared from being torn off

[plain token]

i don’t think so but could this be mrs pigeon corrupted soul

[azure bay]

only if there were a redesign

which wasn't

[plain token]

on second thought…

[azure bay]

Pigeon's soul is consistent both before and after Roots

[lofty stratus]

isnt pigeon the grandma from paradise

[plain token]

Probably

[azure bay]

likely*

[plain token]

there no real signs

exept the mask

[azure bay]

Mr. Rabbit being David is enough

[lofty stratus]

i think they got reincarnated as the animals they were in the paradise ritual

after they died

like the mother

she became mr owl i think

[plain token]

i guess so

[azure bay]

no, she sacrificed herself so Jakob would become Owl

[lofty stratus]

youre probably right

[plain token]

Are there any signs of characteristics for the mrs pigeon being margaret and mrs pheasant being Elizabeth?

exept from david

[azure bay]

in Paradox Owl says he was Jakob and he needed a sacrifice

[lofty stratus]

oh yeah youre right

[azure bay]

nothing blunt but there was only 1 opportunity for David to "make a sacrifice to be enlightened" we know about. And it was shared by the whole family

[plain token]

gerald’s character is reflected in mr boar and nicolas drinks blood in the very first plague just like mr deer drinks a bloody mary

[azure bay]

if you count that Margaret hiding in a cauldron could parallel a hot tub

[plain token]

Oh yea

[lofty stratus]

so it is possible they were reincarnated

[plain token]

most probable

[lofty stratus]

im just wondering why they felt the need to attack harvey

[plain token]

because he killed them?

[azure bay]

plus, they are hostile in general

[lofty stratus]

well yeah youre right

i still dont know who harvey really is

[azure bay]

the devs gave several vague hints

"an old character knowing other characters"

"some sort of guide for other characters"

"hatched from a black egg"

[lofty stratus]

maybe we can get an answer from the new games

i doubt it though

[azure bay]

at some point I thought the 20k BC game could reveal that

then "old character" was misremembered as "ancient character"

[lofty stratus]

theres a lot of characters we dont know anything about

like the hand too

im pretty sure its not something major

[azure bay]

"the hands belong to many different characters"

[lofty stratus]

what about the corrupted soul in paradox chapter 1

the one you see in the forest

[azure bay]

it has to be Dale

his corrupted-self from ch2 meets many versions of himself

[lofty stratus]

could be

he attacks you if you dont click on the circles right

that could mean something

[azure bay]

for me that looks like gameplay

[lofty stratus]

yeah probably is

[plain token]

i’ve made this with my assumptions based on evidence in game ofc.Any comments?

sorry for the crappy resolution

[lofty stratus]

i think it looks pretty accurate

idk about the woman in theatre tho

[azure bay]

she shares strong vibes with Pheasant

the dress, the hat, the job, the music theme

[visual coral]

Jacob having his "biggest glow down of the century" moment

[plain token]

mrs pheasant litterally plays the lady of the lake according to her letter and guess who the lady of the lake is…her mother

[azure bay]

Ms. Pheasant plays the lady in blue

[plain token]

is there a diffence?

[azure bay]

her poster

[plain token]

So there is no difference?

[azure bay]

I have no idea

but what I do know, originally the songstress was meant to play Laura

who's another lady of the lake

later on her design was changed to resemble Pheasant more

then changed to resemble Pheasant a bit less

but the name stayed

[plain token]

well they wear the same

[carmine field]

Could she be the corrupted soul of Mrs. Pheasant?

Considering that she wears a corrupted soul outfit at a certain point of her performance

I don't think it's impossible because I remember that David in Paradox seems to be wearing a mask

[azure bay]

There's no ecidence it's a mask on Rabbit

[azure bay]

And considering that she wears a CS outfit, on the contary, that would mean her humanity

[delicate atlas]

More like a dim down

[carmine field]

Are you sure? The rabbit's face closely resembles the mask David wore in Paradise, as well as being quite different from Mr. Rabbit's face shown in Birthday

[azure bay]

the 1st one has strings

the 2nd one doesn't

the last one is fan-made

[bright parrot]

Neat

[bright parrot]

Redesign?

[azure bay]

if the devs deliberately wanted us to believe it being a mask, they had the right tools in their disposal

[carmine field]

Some of the masks in Rusty Lake Paradise do not show the strings when worn by the family members btw

[bright parrot]

Look at his hands. Most probably he's asura.

I thought you guys were talking about is david rabbit or not.

[azure bay]

I think he's a CS, he needs to balance the substance of his past lives to escape his state. And he's willing to kill for it

sounds a lot like CS

[bright parrot]

What I think is
He wants to be free of samsara.

Or owl sent him to kill Dale's family because he kept his soul captive

I'm strong with the 2nd point

[azure bay]

Mr. Owl didn't even know where to look for Dale

[bright parrot]

Explain the letter in bday

[azure bay]

he found him only around The Mill

[azure bay]

Rabbit came to take the pistol from his past life. End of story

or do you speak of Owl's letter?

[bright parrot]

That's the one side of coin

He could have stole it secretly