🤔｜theories

[tawny pulsar]

mr crow shouldve been able to do it

[carmine field]

I deduce that maybe more things happened in the 1859 scene, as if William had left some extra elixir that just needed to be mixed in certain amounts. It could be that this extra elixir has run out and no one was able to recreate it

[floral mauve]

Might have leftover materials or ready made prototypes but not many evidences

[floral mauve]

Exactly

[carmine field]

How do you think William affects the family in Roots?

I personally imagine that we control William in every scene, but with him "inducing" the family to do what he needs

Of course, most puzzles didn't literally happen, being gameplay aspects. But when we take an object and give it to a family member, I imagine it is William inducing that person to take that object in first place, not him giving it to the person directly

William's corrupted soul is invisible for them, after all

[azure bay]

James was following William's journal. What happened to it after James died is unknown.

Also it looked like James were using the leftovers of intermidiate ingredients.

That doesn't mean Crow did everything and William is useless

[azure bay]

Wiliiam doing every little thing the player does makes no sense. You sound like the Vanderbooms couldn't do even the most basic stuff without being controlled

[carmine field]

I don't think it's like that. The Vanderbooms have their own will. I just said that I think William just induces them to do things but doesn't control their will.

[azure bay]

And even then there's not much profit in most of the stuff done

Like what was the point for him in Family Band?

Or playing Lying Game?

[carmine field]

That's why I commented that most puzzles (if not all) are not literal. There is no reason for William to help in the family band, but he may have witnessed the scene.

However, there are times when William is really present, like when he saves Leonard from wounds or in the scene of Mr. Crow's shadow behind the window

[azure bay]

Here I agree. At least he was watching and sometimes he have evidence of his intervention

[carmine field]

I'll correct myself here:

William watches all the scenes and the family, but does not control their will, although he induces chaos in the family in order to arrange the sacrifices.

Or at least he allows things he needs to happen.

[carmine field]

Mr. Crow implies that the Vanderbooms' miserable lives are due to their legacy (William's rebirth) and not their own free will.

So I believe William had a strong influence in their actions (even if they had freedom of choice) ^^

Maybe in even the silliest ones, like in James and Mary's relationship, while seeking the family growth

(my edits are me trying to make my messages more tangible)

[azure bay]

I think he meant that children's legacy would be the grandchildren and by consequence Laura

The grandchildren are the generation William deliberately took care of

[bright parrot]

What are your opinions/theories of Harvey's box

@azure bay

[azure bay]

it's surprisingly unclear whether the box was inside or outside the cabin

[bright parrot]

I think that if we follow Bob's order for gameplay, Harvey's box is after seasons level 1

[azure bay]

Harvey could save Laura

[bright parrot]

So it was sent to Laura

When she was in cabin

"Which she found"

[azure bay]

that was obvious, not?

[bright parrot]

So why is the location questionable

[azure bay]

the location is clear. It's definitely the cabin

but where exactly is vague for several reasons

both the sideholes show the walls

but the top doesn't look like the ceiling we know

[bright parrot]

What will the exact location reveal

Is it important

[azure bay]

it may be

[bright parrot]

How

[azure bay]

the exact order of the events is unknown

and what exactly happened isn't too clear too

[bright parrot]

Also what's the deal with sus looking fruit

[azure bay]

basically, Harvey could save Laura only if the box was inside

[bright parrot]

Maybe that's something related to birds

[bright parrot]

How

[azure bay]

if they were attacked by the same CS, Harvey could canonically distract it and banish with fireflies only if the box was inside. Because the CS canonically entered the cabin

and therefore, the blue gem ending was canon from the start

I mean, Laura can survive it only being saved by Harvey

being outside lets the box have a different CS attacking it and still stay canon or at least a part of the main timeline

[azure bay]

looks like cactus fruit

[delicate atlas]

I remember there was one showing the lake but I might be misremembering

[azure bay]

there was the lake but it was a different hole

the one you cut out yourself

[delicate atlas]

Yeah

[azure bay]

and above it are planks

[delicate atlas]

So some sides show the wall and one shows the lake, and the top side shows the sky iirc

So it's probably outside the cabin

Might be just a design/animation error

[azure bay]

it's more complicated

one side shows the wall

and the other one shows both the wall and the lake

either a mistake, or the door

[delicate atlas]

Or the box is closer to a corner of the cabin

Rather than in front of it in the center

[azure bay]

wdym?

inside?

[delicate atlas]

Give me a second

Something like this

[bright parrot]

I've watched enough ATLA to know what can cactus juice do

https://tenor.com/view/avatar-sokka-drink-cactus-juice-quenchiest-dessert-gif-5795533

[azure bay]

that config doesn't correspond the observed reality

the planks are seen right above the lake hole

as if they were over the doorway

if it's a mistake, the box can be anywhere outside

and if we start theorizing errors, the top looks rather like white ceiling than the sky

[delicate atlas]

I see what you mean

Then maybe the box is by the door from the inside

[bright parrot]

In case 23 box was inside if it's the same cabin

Remained untouched

Then the box was inside

[azure bay]

it has to be touched eventually because its contents moved to Laura's place

[bright parrot]

Laura had nothing in cabin

[delicate atlas]

He means the cactus

[azure bay]

I mean her appartment

[azure bay]

no, there was no cactus in the box

I speak of the jar with (fire)flies

[delicate atlas]

Oh I see

[bright parrot]

I think harvey was high on cactus juice and saw some delusions

[delicate atlas]

But I remember her having a cactus plant, so maybe she got the seeds from the cactus fruit?

[azure bay]

this kind of theories is highly anticlimactic

[delicate atlas]

Plus we eat cactus fruits from time to time, it doesn't make you high lol

[azure bay]

to be fair, we don't

we give it to our guests

🙃

[bright parrot]

Harvey going inside the spiral of cactus fruit

And coming inside box again

Is confusing

[azure bay]

it is, but explaining it away by hallucinogens doesn't feel RL

[bright parrot]

Yup

Any unique things you know about birds perspective

Like the can't see glasses

That may solve some answers

(If devs kept that in mind)

[azure bay]

likely they didn't

[bright parrot]

I highly doubt that harvey had so many stuff in his box

[azure bay]

the matches were there

the jar was there

the egg could be brought by Harvey

the cigars don't really make sense but could be connected to the hotel

the dominoes, why not?

[bright parrot]

Coz you don't see a box of bird (that too moving) with so much stuff

Also maybe harvey was moved from where Laura was in RL (Most probably her old home)

To cabin

[azure bay]

again, if the devs think about this kind of things

[azure bay]

wdym by old home?

[bright parrot]

The one where roots happened

[azure bay]

no, we saw the wallpaper from Seasons

[bright parrot]

In?

[azure bay]

HB

the box "teleports" to the lake after the cactus fruit

[vivid bridge]

I always saw the cactus fruit thing to just be a visual representation of the box having moved to the lake

its a creative way of showing it

since how else would you portray that action

[azure bay]

the parrot acknowledging it worries me

[bright parrot]

Maybe that's the representation of his box getting changed

Coz the surroundings changed a bit

But had some of old stuff

[azure bay]

the only changes are Mr. Crow hatching and the fish growing legs

[bright parrot]

Yes not too much

[azure bay]

and yeah, the outside too

[bright parrot]

Trying to retain the old stuff

[vivid bridge]

I think the spiral staircase thing symbolizes Harvey's panic of being stuck inside this box

and the game uses it as a transition to when he has arrived at rusty lake

[bright parrot]

Yup I'm wrong just the location changed

[bright parrot]

Coz it's taped from outside?

[azure bay]

generally speaking, the spiral itself is either about going deeper or going broader

depending on the direction

[vivid bridge]

I don't think Harvey going inside the fruit is literal

like its a metaphor or something

[azure bay]

And I'm recalling common spiral metaphors

[vivid bridge]

spirals are often used to show confusion and the imagery of spiraling down staircase could be that descent into confusion

I mean, you do play as a bird

[azure bay]

let's not forget, it's Harvey who had his share of paranormal in the past

but yeah

the confusion was vocal

[vivid bridge]

yeah but 70s Harvey is presumably just a parrot. We never see him show any sign of his past intelligence

UB might change that, though

[azure bay]

he's working for Owl. For me that's 'nuff said

[vivid bridge]

He worked for Owl in the past. In these early games, he's just a parrot

[azure bay]

he's unlikely to be a normal guest in The Mill, Theatre, Paradox. And in Birthday he appears only if you've seen the secret scene

in Paradox Harvey leads Dale to Mr. Crow

[vivid bridge]

Paradox isn't the most accurate view at these characters

[azure bay]

but it's created by them

[vivid bridge]

And even then, he's just an animal in those. All he wants is that bird food

[bright parrot]

JOHNSSONS

[azure bay]

the UG implies he had intelligence during that time period

even had a mission

also had such in Roots

[vivid bridge]

He acts like a bird in that one. He's attracted by that bird food

[azure bay]

still weird that he arrived after 20 years

[vivid bridge]

ehhh that's just gameplay stuff

[azure bay]

gameplay or not but Harvey's longevity is remarkable

[vivid bridge]

Harvey definitely has an extended life but he acts just like a bird

[azure bay]

and still seems valuable as a spy

[vivid bridge]

I mean, its no coincidence that he lives with Laura but I doubt that's his own idea

or I would have said that before UB

UB might change all of this

[tawny pulsar]

harvey has been alive from paradise to the white door, he is very interesting

[dapper bolt]

You know, some people believe that his appearance in RL:P is just an easter egg

[azure bay]

considering, Harvey living for long even without Paradise, the biggest stretch would be not his appearance but enlightenment after that

[dapper bolt]

Sure

[bright parrot]

So Albert never had a cs of deer @azure bay

[azure bay]

His CS was human-like

[bright parrot]

||Also speaking of harvey raising laura||

||Harvey is a smart bird so why not and Rose is alive so maybe she raised Laura||

[azure bay]

||She'll have to leave||

[bright parrot]

||Then Harvey will raise her but I don't know which form||

||Harvey was mutant till Hotel||

[azure bay]

Harvey has an only form. Birb. Asura died long before Laura was born

[bright parrot]

Asura died in stampede

Which we don't know when happened or if we take the code in bday as year of incident

Then

[azure bay]

It was 1 year after Hotel

[bright parrot]

1894

But it's the same bird

Coz harvey had cigar box in RL Harvey's box

But if we take his age in consideration

Which is 10-15 years

Then

[azure bay]

Based on what?

[bright parrot]

Bird->______->Asura->Bird

Birds live 10-15 years

[azure bay]

Harvey lives muuuuuuuuuuch longer

1894-1972 for sure, 1981 if Seasons is real

Unless, he's time travelling

[bright parrot]

I'm wrong

They live 60 yrs

Harvey is african grey parrot

[azure bay]

How many get to live for 80 years?

[bright parrot]

Some

Take 80 for parrot like 100 for human

Neither normal nor rare

[azure bay]

Do we expect it looking old, having a ton of health issues, etc.?

[bright parrot]

This blank space is either human form or asura form
Coz we've never seen a cs of harvey

[azure bay]

Another possibility

Birb Harvey in Paradise came from the future

[bright parrot]

Maybe arthritis cataract blurry vision

Something Like old dogs

Mobility issues

[azure bay]

Again, do we expect those from Harvey?

[bright parrot]

Maybe he died early

Like most of the characters in RL

Also

[azure bay]

?

[bright parrot]

Harvey changed it's gender

So that's a sure sign of rebirth

[azure bay]

Unless "weird parrot brings weird eggs, haha"

[bright parrot]

What are you implying

[azure bay]

Do we expect Harvey to actually grow old?

[bright parrot]

Well aging exists in RL so yes

We never see old harvey so maybe he died early

[azure bay]

When is early?

[bright parrot]

When he was healthy

It could even be 80 for some birds

[azure bay]

U told it's like 100 for humans

[bright parrot]

Yup

[azure bay]

Humans don't look healthy in 100

[bright parrot]

My grandma is 90

And she walks properly

So that's variable

For every organism

[azure bay]

On average it's pretty bad

[bright parrot]

When I said about 80 I was saying a super rare case

One in thousands or millions

Just to broad the age spectrum of harvey

[azure bay]

So here's the deal

We expect Harvey to age

But we don't observe it

[bright parrot]

It's hard to observe birds getting old

Even in dogs you notice age by

Growth

[azure bay]

You've mentioned some specific deseases

[bright parrot]

Which stops after some certain age

[bright parrot]

Yes that too

Take @polar warren cat for example

They are mother and daughter

But the daughter looks older and bigger

[azure bay]

I have a stereotype that old birds have feather conditions

[bright parrot]

Maybe

But that's like in last few years of life

3-4

Which is a lot

So even if harvey lives 60yrs

He will look almost same for 30-40 yrs

[carmine field]

This question may sound stupid, but

Would it be possible for Harvey to be able to shapeshift between his animal version and his asura version, like what Mr. Owl and Mr. Crow do with their human forms?

I remember the first time I saw the Easter Egg in birthday, I thought Harvey just shapeshifted to get away from the Hotel 🥴

Yeah, I said it would be a stupid question

I know people here would say no, but I want to understand why

[bright parrot]

No.
Owl and crow have asura form over their body, I think they are not dead and artificially became asura with the help of elixir.
But harvey never had elixir (as far as we know) so Harvey died in stampede became a bird

And died again and became asura

Then died again and became bird (female this time)

@azure bay if harvey is a human then it's most probably
||Mary->Ema->Frank||
(Potential UB spoilers)

[azure bay]

Theatre and The Cave insist Harvey's an animal

[azure bay]

Nah...

[azure bay]

Owl died legit before becoming Owl.

We don't know what happened to Harvey after Paradise, we can't say anything

[bright parrot]

Maybe Asura form is blood relation trait or personality trait

Idk how but it's related to something

[carmine field]

Oh, yep. The Samsara Wheel in Theatre.

But what from The Cave? I don't remember exactly.

[azure bay]

It's related to enlightenment

[azure bay]

Another wheel

[carmine field]

Mr. Owl even got a new appearance.

[bright parrot]

We see people interacting/looking like their asura form before becoming asura and harvey is deeply connected to these people

[bright parrot]

How are nicholas and dale are deer

[azure bay]

This just makes no sense. These people were mostly normal they were not even looking for enlightenment

[carmine field]

I think it's just a symbol of leadership or something. They are not related at all.

[bright parrot]

Becoming asura is not enlightenment

[azure bay]

Ah, that's what u are talking about.

[bright parrot]

Till now buddy till now

[azure bay]

The games explicitely call it enlightenment

[bright parrot]

I think the question mark is the enlightenment

[azure bay]

Connecting characters by guessing potential asura forms is flawed.

you need to make sure a charechter can become one in the 1st place

[azure bay]

The question mark is deva. Because we've seen no deva before

[bright parrot]

Earlier you said that deva and asura are same

Or they look same

[azure bay]

I didn't mean it in that way

[azure bay]

More like it

Question mark is Dale

That's for sure

[bright parrot]

Also crow and owl are not properly enlightened

Coz elixir is temporary

[azure bay]

For now I consider it a norm

Because Owl was reborn for real

[bright parrot]

If we follow the mythology

Then enlightenment is freedom from the cycle

Breaking the circle

[azure bay]

The devs clealry don't

[bright parrot]

Yup

Here it's more like

Deva or asura

[azure bay]

An achievement said William becoming Laura was enlightenment too

[bright parrot]

So is enlightenment just promotion

From any lower form to upper form

[azure bay]

Maybe

[bright parrot]

Also seasons and Dale's journey's

Roadmap is

Cubes

In book

White Cube: Relive your past life.
Black Cube: Face your demons.
Blue Cube: The past is never dead, it is not even past.
Golden Cube: The memories are not only the key to the past but... also to the future

Relive your past theatre

Face your demons

Birthday

Blue cube in theatre fixing past

[azure bay]

I think the way Dale's taken is deva specific

[bright parrot]

What?

Wdym

[azure bay]

I mean that all this stuff with elevator and cube hopping is what will make Dale a deva

He's the only one who does that, he's the only one who'll become a deva

[carmine field]

Dale's journey for enlightment really is the most different

staying months in a elevator

[bright parrot]

I think that golden cube is time machine for future or smth

Like blue cube

[bright parrot]

Time is relative

[azure bay]

I'd rather say, he spent months in a big white cube if he spent any

[bright parrot]

He spent RL paradox there

[azure bay]

@bright parrot it were seconds while he was connected to the machine

Most of the time he was just sleeping, it seems

[bright parrot]

No beard growth

So maybe he was there for small time

Less than a week for sure

[azure bay]

Learn the dates

Case 23 was summer 1972

The Cave was winter

[bright parrot]

Then time is relative in cube for sure

[azure bay]

I'd rather bet on "the lake is a place where time does not exist"

[bright parrot]

Time exists everywhere

[azure bay]

Play TPW at last

[bright parrot]

Aaanndddd

I'm embarrassed again

[carmine field]

Regarding UB:

||How do you think the human Harvey would fit in? That is, if he's the character we control||

I didn't read the discussion from the beginning

[azure bay]

Symbolism plus gameplay unless we see ||Harvey actually changing forms one day||

[carmine field]

Plausible

[azure bay]

The game itself is admitted to be symbolic on steam

[carmine field]

That is true

[carmine field]

By the way, the golden timepiece means "deva", so it would fit better up there

[azure bay]

Fit where?

[carmine field]

above the question mark

The other timepieces are next to their corresponding places, not that it matters

[azure bay]

ah, you mean on the picture?

[carmine field]

yep

[azure bay]

screw the picture imo

[carmine field]

One day maybe I'll take some time to make my own diagrams

I think it's pretty valid for this type of game

[bright parrot]

I just downloaded it from google so it's not mine

[carmine field]

oh, okay

[plain token]

nowhere enlighten me.why is mr owl’s future form a fish like in harvey’s box?

[thorn harness]

Also in cave, didn't he also take the elixir then and turn into the owl?

[azure bay]

these are 2 different fish

[plain token]

no that’s mr crow

[azure bay]

both did

Owl's future is a fish...

[plain token]

why tho?

[azure bay]

because the one in HB is a Magritte's mermaid and in Owl's case it's likely just a head. Likely referring to "a fish & a parrot" play of Theatre

because he'll die and be reborn as a fish

[plain token]

so just like when he was jacob?

[thorn harness]

Sorry, I'\m new here. HB?

[azure bay]

Harvey's Box

[thorn harness]

ah

[azure bay]

it's all about samsara and constant cycle of rebirths

[plain token]

so like in rl paradise?

when he got burnt alive

[azure bay]

yes and no. To become Owl Jakob and Caroline had to put much more effort

[covert wyvern]

Welcome to the server, enjoy your stay:)

[plain token]

did jacob seek the vanderbooms’ brothers help?

[azure bay]

likely so

[covert wyvern]

And then many hours of theorising you can opt into

[thorn harness]

Thank you

[plain token]

that’s why in the secret rl roots lvl mr crow said that mr owl needs him in hotel right?

[azure bay]

partially

I think they both knew him

and I tend to think Crow brought him some elixir

[thorn harness]

Oh man, I am getting lost. I guess I gotta play them all again lmao

[azure bay]

there was a secret lvl in Roots

[thorn harness]

yes with the doodle god elixir

right?

[plain token]

out of topic but did mr owl build the hotel to avenge his family

?

[azure bay]

elixir yep, not sure about doodles or gods

[thorn harness]

mixing the elements

[azure bay]

rather as his base of operation

[azure bay]

I think the 1st game like that was called just Alchemy

[covert wyvern]

This is how I always refer to the level too lmao

But yeah thar genre type for sure

[plain token]

But isn’t rl hotel about killing mr owl’s family?

[thorn harness]

I don't think they were family, more just a resource of memories to give the lake imo

[azure bay]

the game was at least partially but Hotel was there at least decades before and long after

[azure bay]

they are likely to be the Eilanders reborn

[thorn harness]

ahhh

[tawny pulsar]

the way of harvesting cubes just got more advanced

[plain token]

i may have misunderstood a few things.So,the paradise got replaced by the hotel right?It was used as a base for mr owl right?In rl hotel all the guests are jacob’s family right?

[azure bay]

yes, yes, likely yes

[tawny pulsar]

the island paradise was on is now hotel

[plain token]

Aren’t the guests the family members woth the matching mask in r

l paradise?

[azure bay]

they do match

[tawny pulsar]

they act like them in some degree

[azure bay]

mostly Boar

[tawny pulsar]

yes

[azure bay]

the others not so much

[thorn harness]

lmao the boar really does act like him

The rest don't really give the Eilander vibe idk

[tawny pulsar]

deer orders a blood mary, and in the first plague he is seen drinking blood but thats a stretch

[thorn harness]

so many characters drink blood in this series so it is a stretch

[azure bay]

not so big like some others

[azure bay]

like who?

[thorn harness]

Robert hill in theatre

[azure bay]

yeah, I think that's it

but Nicolas has antlers unlike Bob

[plain token]

there’s no doubt that gerard is mr boar but i don’t think elizabeth is mrs pheasant but rather the lady of the lake

[azure bay]

the songstress is weird in this sense

considering the time linear, she can't be Pheasant's human form nor her future reincarnation

[tawny pulsar]

mrs pigeon is seen in a bath and margaret does hide in a cauldron in plague 4 but again thats a minor connection

[azure bay]

the biggest bomb is Mr. Rabbit being revealed as D. Eilander in Paradox

[tawny pulsar]

yeah

[azure bay]

more so a magician

[plain token]

coincedence?

[azure bay]

likely not

it's even beyond that

[tawny pulsar]

mrs pheasants play is '' the lady of the lake''

[thorn harness]

nah thats a confirmation

[tawny pulsar]

yea

[azure bay]

confirmation of what exactly?

[thorn harness]

that Mrs. Pheasant is the Lady of the Lake

[azure bay]

but in what way?

[tawny pulsar]

theyre probably connected in some way

i mean they 100% are connected

[thorn harness]

Or the Lady of the lake was Mrs. Pheasant in a past life

[plain token]

I still don’t understand is David eilander the “evil” mr rabbit seen in Mr Rabbit’s room window or the guest because he apears in birthday as the “evil” one and in paradox we see his name

[tawny pulsar]

'' balance the substance of my past lives''

[azure bay]

but still, it's meant to be 1971, Pheasant's ghost is still lurking the lake

[tawny pulsar]

i think mr rabbit was doin some time shenanigans

[azure bay]

thus all the Rabbits are the same entity

[plain token]

so how does that work?

[azure bay]

I think like Dale and Laura

some cube travelling

[plain token]

so he’s both at once?

[tawny pulsar]

tpw like stuff but not exactly

[plain token]

I wouldn’t say so

i n tpw we can’t the other rose

[azure bay]

Rabbit came for the pistol from Hotel he called the substance of his past life

[tawny pulsar]

you can tho through the looking glass but i know what u mean

hm

yeah that makes sense

[plain token]

why did mr rabbit kill dale’s parents again?

[thorn harness]

he said he needed the gun to "escape this state"

the gun was a substance of his past life

[plain token]

???

[azure bay]

I think he was still a CS seeking for rebirth

[thorn harness]

CS?

[tawny pulsar]

corrupted soul

[thorn harness]

thank you

that tracks

[plain token]

so “evil” mr rabbit was just corrupted?

[tawny pulsar]

theyre not 2 different entities

[plain token]

nope

[azure bay]

he wasn't even that evil. He was sorry to kill

[plain token]

sorry?

[tawny pulsar]

sorry bros... i gotta get that rebirth on god fr fr

[thorn harness]

he was at least partially remorseful

[plain token]

did he want the gun in the chest?

[thorn harness]

yes

[plain token]

in dale’s house

[azure bay]

it was gone when after he came

[plain token]

oh right!

[thorn harness]

and when you go back you take the gun before he comes and give it to his grandpa

[plain token]

so any idea how david the dork became a magician?

[azure bay]

I think he was reborn a clean slate

[plain token]

makes sense

[sudden dust]

theories on who you play as in ub?

[azure bay]

spoilers, guys

use tags or mods will get angry

[plain token]

https://tenor.com/view/emoji-disintergrating-meme-emoji-disintegrating-meme-gif-21239978

[covert wyvern]

[tawny pulsar]

doesnt this chats description say spoilers doe......

[covert wyvern]

You'll get bonked by a hammer if you don't listen

[tawny pulsar]

oh no

[azure bay]

this is about older games

[plain token]

i play on mobile and can’t play the demo

any way anything that doesn’t include ub

[tawny pulsar]

underground blossom is... a game

[plain token]

cool ,please could we switch the subject?

[fleet haven]

Dammit, I was wondering the same question X) Is there a place where we can talk about it?

[ebon aspen]

Here, but with spoiler tags

[tawny pulsar]

ok got it

[fleet haven]

Ok!

[azure bay]

btw big fan of you crazy conspiracy theorist Dale art

[plain token]

so ,in rl roots and in ce cave we are presented to 2 different of making the elixir.Did aldous find a new way to make the elixir or was it just for gameplay differences

[tawny pulsar]

he just got a bottle of water and extracted the elixir from the dog

[fleet haven]

Spoilers: ||I don't know who we are playing, it's someone with white gloves, dark clothes and a kinda feminine hand, and I don't think it's Mr Crow||

[azure bay]

no, just Dog drank elixir at some point and now it's slowly leaving its body

[tawny pulsar]

he didnt add anything in or change the recipe of the elixir

[fleet haven]

Thank yooouuuu ^w^

[azure bay]

there's a secret hidden in UB

[tawny pulsar]

||theres a secret in Underground Blossom!!!!!!!||

[plain token]

so aldous khew about the dog so did he remain mr crow from the secret lvl in roots or did he actually find a way to make it

[fleet haven]

Alright, I'm going back in the demo, see ya in a few minutes XD

[tawny pulsar]

he didnt make the elixir

[azure bay]

You'll need another game to find it

[tawny pulsar]

inbetween roots and cave presumably

[thorn harness]

are you guys talking about the demo?

[tawny pulsar]

yes

[plain token]

so he never knew how to make it?

[azure bay]

one of the threads, yes

[azure bay]

I don't think he did

[tawny pulsar]

now that is a interesting question

most likely not

he probably contributed to the making of it

[thorn harness]

Didn't Caroline come up with the recipe?

[azure bay]

My headcanon, he was busy with setting the tree ritual in place

[azure bay]

I think the brothers followed her notes

their names are near the same recipe in the book of Paradox movie

[plain token]

it’s cool to think of that Ald ous was credited for the creation of the elixir but what if William did it ?

[tawny pulsar]

he did do it

[azure bay]

William did, he's called the last creator in The Cave

[plain token]

So was william ok with what aldous did?

[azure bay]

what did Aldous?

[thorn harness]

I think they both knew what they were going into

[azure bay]

thus Aldous being busy with the backdoor ritual for the unlucky one

[tawny pulsar]

unrelated but: i like to believe william is mentally unstable and due to laura still knowing about the elixir it could seem his problems would be carried onto her aswell

[plain token]

he told him to drink the elixir killing him but hey ,he ruined the lived of his nephew’s family and died after being reborn at the age of 36(i think)

[thorn harness]

Which brother is James' father?

[azure bay]

that doesn't matter who drinks 1st

[tawny pulsar]

dog drank first

he lived

[azure bay]

Either Aldous or someone 3rd

[thorn harness]

its a 50/50

[thorn harness]

okay

[azure bay]

I don't think she knew knew. She has some memories of her past life hidden deep inside but she doesn't seem to remember a thing yet

[plain token]

it’s also funny how the elixir was like “i will kill the first person that drinks me bu the second and third will live

[thorn harness]

enlightenment roulette

[tawny pulsar]

yeah but william still seems somewhat mentally unsound

[azure bay]

We didn't see much of him alive to judge

[tawny pulsar]

didnt he have a roman statue of himself in one of the roots minigames or something like that

[azure bay]

could be a kind of symbolism. I struggle to understand those things

[tawny pulsar]

im pretty sure its present in case 23 in the chapel level but thats also unreliable

[azure bay]

it uses the same body sprite but the head is different

[tawny pulsar]

yeah that might not even be his face

[fleet haven]

I'm back!

||WTF happened to Harvey!!?||

[tawny pulsar]

||elaborate||

[azure bay]

||bad case of symbolism||

[fleet haven]

||On the photo he look like he is laying on the ground at the feet of the statue!||

[azure bay]

Laura is just a good photographer

[fleet haven]

I wouldn't say that XD

[tawny pulsar]

about symbolism

theres a couple of reappearing stuff which is interesting

[fleet haven]

Matches!

XD

[tawny pulsar]

uh

i was going to mention

coins

and eyes

[fleet haven]

Eyes?

[tawny pulsar]

singular eye

[plain token]

Did they make it a man to show that the sacrifices were the body of william’s soul

[tawny pulsar]

elaborate

[plain token]

what kind of elaboration do you need

[tawny pulsar]

just in general

[plain token]

what needs explaining?

[fleet haven]

Kinda: the sacrifices has been used to allow William to be reincarnated, but it's hard to tell if it's some sorcery or if the roots really used those body parts precisely

Now that I think about it, probably not, otherwise Laura would be brown haired

[plain token]

Then why make it male while he was going to be born as laura

[tawny pulsar]

to show hes being

reborn

at the end of roots the baby born is covered in lauras dress

[fleet haven]

Because reincarnation: the game showed that William was back

[tawny pulsar]

and also he switches from adult form

to baby form

in that sequence

[fleet haven]

This is symbolism! XD

[tawny pulsar]

coins seem to be a representation of corrupted souls or seem to have some relation to them

[fleet haven]

Are you sure about that?

[azure bay]

why?

[tawny pulsar]

in tpw

[fleet haven]

I mean coins are seen in hands of people linked to corruption in a way or another, but that doesn't prove anything

[tawny pulsar]

coins placed on albert turn him corrupted

but i dont think thats what

directly did it

[azure bay]

and in Roots they did nothing

to James

[fleet haven]

I don't think that's the cause, it's just some tradition

[azure bay]

actually it's an ancient Greek tradition

[fleet haven]

True!

[azure bay]

to pay for a trip across the Stix

[fleet haven]

Wasn't it in the mouth?

[azure bay]

originally

[tawny pulsar]

hm

[azure bay]

but in later Europe it was transformed

[fleet haven]

Interesting

But still, in RL that is just a coin X)

[tawny pulsar]

well i can say in certainty that they do mean something!

[azure bay]

I assumed it could mean wealth in The Lake

as a part of pentacle

[fleet haven]

Hard to say: it's money where you need to use money. If there was some mark meaning it's always the same coin I would believe it, but for now it's like saying matches are linked to corrupted souls

[azure bay]

well

black cubes are

[tawny pulsar]

the coin is used to open the box in rusty lake birthday

it isnt like matches where the purpose is strictly gameplay wise

[fleet haven]

Yeah but this is not the same coin. However this one can be a symbol if we see it again, it's an object linked to Dale

[azure bay]

well

we've seen it opening the same chest in Paradox

[tawny pulsar]

also as nowhere mentioned, its used to make the symbol in CE lake

it must have some relevance

[azure bay]

these things would be good to ask the devs... Artists love explaining their symbolisms

[fleet haven]

CE lake?

[tawny pulsar]

cube escape the lake

i might have to

think the symbolism more through

[fleet haven]

I just checked and it is indeed the same coin 🤔 Althoug it could be re-used picture because it is in olders games, I must agree it is still the same coin

[azure bay]

there are 2 coins

I mean 2 types

1 is used everywhere

the other one is from TWD

actually

there are more

[tawny pulsar]

bobs got a coin

[azure bay]

coins with actual denomination

1st appeared in the theatre bar

and then reused in UG

[tawny pulsar]

do they have anything of importance or are they just coins with numbers on them

[azure bay]

just currency

[fleet haven]

Yeah, probably

[tawny pulsar]

it might just mean currency

but why would it be used to repel the CS

[thorn harness]

maybe its the currency of the soul? Like obols in spiritfarer

you pay your coin for right to passage onto the next life

[azure bay]

repel?

[tawny pulsar]

like

drive the CS away

[azure bay]

when?

[fleet haven]

Good question, all the elements used in the CE lake's pentagram looks random but maybe there is a meaning we don't know yet

[tawny pulsar]

maybe rebel isnt the right word

when you bassically kill it in CE lake

[thorn harness]

it did repel tho

kinda

[azure bay]

it's the gem, not the coin

[tawny pulsar]

it still seems important to making it though

aswell as all the other items

like the shell and the eye and the apple

[fleet haven]

Yeah but is any of this really have a meaning? Maybe the eye or the shell, but an apple???

[floral mauve]

aha one day not checking server, 200 messages

love it when this happens

[azure bay]

I tried to explain it in my vid

a pentacle with 5 items representing 5 elements and virtues

but I'm not satisfied with my explanation

[fleet haven]

Understandable, I haven't seen youre vid but I can already tell we are missing clues

[azure bay]

I don't think we do. It's just old and vague

if we were to get something we arguably would

[tawny pulsar]

the apple has never appeared outside of this right

i dont remember it anywhere

[fleet haven]

Paradise?

But it's not the same apple

[floral mauve]

somehow apple is linked with heart, I dont remember where I read it

[tawny pulsar]

where is it

[floral mauve]

it would explain why it comes from a corpse

[tawny pulsar]

i mean it comes from opening the CS up

[floral mauve]

David I think

arrow

[tawny pulsar]

oh right

that

[azure bay]

there are so many apple symbols in the human culture

[tawny pulsar]

thats a green apple though

[floral mauve]

apple is somewhat close to health or life element representation imo

[fleet haven]

Yeah, we all saw youre profile picture XD

[floral mauve]

an apple a day keep the CS away

[tawny pulsar]

paradise has alot of biblical references

though i dont think this is related to

adam and eve

[fleet haven]

Me neither, unless Adam put an apple on Eve's head to shoot it with an arrow XD

[tawny pulsar]

it seems to be based on germanic folklore but it just seems to be how good at aiming he is

so i dont think that connects to the apple in any way from the lake

[thorn harness]

Maybe the guests in hotel were chosen for the symbolism of the Eilander family on the day of the lake when owl came to paradise?

[bright parrot]

Why did dog's form never changed after taking the elixir

I'm starting to think that elixir gives immortality but

It gives a demotion in samsara cycle (if there is one)

And dog can't go lower because it's the lowest

If asura drinks elixir they may turn into animals

Or maybe turning into animals is a metaphor

@azure bay

And that might explain Harvey's timeline

[azure bay]

Because the dog was an animal with no consciousness whatsoever

[bright parrot]

How does that helps

[azure bay]

Everyone we know how they became asuras were humans, they had basic sapience. Even Gerard

And Dale's reaching a higher state of consciousness, he'll become deva

[azure bay]

I assume it was based on the source material. Humanity is the best stage for reaching enlightenment

[bright parrot]

Gerard?

[azure bay]

?

[bright parrot]

Who's gerard

[azure bay]

Great

Gerard Eilander

[bright parrot]

Yes it is but elixir must affect dog somehow other than immortality

And

Elixir helping in changing form is different than immortality

[bright parrot]

Oo that less famous person from roots

[azure bay]

Why must it?

[bright parrot]

Elixir did two things
1.) Immortality
2.)Changed form

There must be a sequence in change of form

Also we don't know if asura is a superior being

Is it?

[azure bay]

what sequence?

[bright parrot]

No one asked but The purpose of this question was to track the forms of harvey

If dog can't do it even with elixir

Then harvey just did samsara cycle again and again

[azure bay]

We know nothing about Harvey

We don't know how he even could get enlightened

[bright parrot]

We don't know what sequence.

There must be a reason on which one will die and how the other will gain immortality

Like why would they become asura

And doesn't asura looks like a transition state from animal to human or opposite

[azure bay]

It doesn't

Some of them have magic

And even in the source material they are considered superior to humans

[bright parrot]

That's for devs

They are working on harvey so maybe we'll get to know something

[azure bay]

In UB you mean?

[bright parrot]

Yup in ub in tpw
(Haven't played still LOL)

Harvey is somehow the link between eilander and vanderbooms

[azure bay]

"harvey is an old character that knows other characters"

He has no direct links to Eilanders

He has no direct links to Vanderbooms

Only occasionally they cross their ways

Back to the elixir topic

We've got our evidence

Animals are not affected as mich as humans are

Just a fact

You should build theories based on it

Not trying to retrofit it into whatever you theoriesed while ignoring it

[bright parrot]

My point was that

Harvey probably died each time to change form

As elixir don't work on them

And he's shown in two forms which can't be achieved by elixir

One of which is the hotel incident

He died in stampede turned into parrot

[azure bay]

That's no use theorizing on Harvey rn.

There are other forms of elixir, other ways of achieving enlightenment, other ways to transform specific to the form.

We can't even be sure that Harvey was an animal before being enlightened. Since Seasosn and Roots he's shown something we could interprete as time travel and UG only reinforces that.

What if Harvey came to Paradise from the future?

Ignoring Harvey, I can tell almost for sure that lvl of consciousness defines the elixir's effects

No consciousness - you get the basic pack. Immortality as long as you don't take a dump

Some consciousness - here's a furry form, and some magic in addition to immortality

High consciousness - immortality, furry form, magic and we expect something extra

@bright parrot

[bright parrot]

So does consciousness affects that who lives in ritual

[azure bay]

How would it?

[bright parrot]

Maybe that's an absurd question

Though there must be a reason which we still don't know

[azure bay]

Why couldn't it be random?

@bright parrot

[bright parrot]

If dale is becoming deva by elixir then there has to be a reason why elixir chose him over other person (probably Laura) maybe that's the choice paradox was about

[azure bay]

Maybe

Either way Owl takes chances here

@bright parrot

[bright parrot]

Maybe it's more of a mutual agreement

[azure bay]

?

[bright parrot]

Though that may contradict dog being immkrtal

[bright parrot]

William and aldous came to mutual agreement of who lives
(Maybe in mind)
Same as Jakob and her mother (forgot the name)

[azure bay]

No, the dog doesn't fit here.

[bright parrot]

If that's upto owl to decide who lives
Then paradox was unimportant

[bright parrot]

Yup

The sole purpose of paradox was to make a choice

To die for Laura
Or to live the immortal life with her blood on hands

[azure bay]

Maybe not literally

Dale killing Laura is still a theory

[bright parrot]

Even if dale is unrelated to her death, he would blame himself for that

He's so obsessed with laura

[azure bay]

Maybe, maybe not

[bright parrot]

He will

It's all in paradox

He can't accept her death

And he thinks that he killed Laura

Or it's fed to his brain that he killed her

[azure bay]

We don't know what he thinks

We don't know what he remembers

Going into character's heads is like writing a fanfic

It's cool, it adds to the story

But it's impossible to say if the devs would agree

[carmine field]

What has been shown so far is that Dale developed anxiety and depression while investigating Case 23, but it's still a bit vague

[azure bay]

Even earlier

[bright parrot]

Dale already had mental trauma

Dale is clearly obsessed with Laura.

He can't let her die

[azure bay]

He's thinking about her, ha's thinking about the case, he doesn't want her to die like a normal empathetic person would do but "can't" is too much tonsay

[bright parrot]

Also why are we taking paradox as a loop
It can be branched outcomes of that event

[azure bay]

Because paradox is a loop

Ch1 ends with ch2

Ch2 ends with the movie

[bright parrot]

Paradox is in his mind

So it's like inception

They are trying to plant an idea in his mind

But making him feel like his own

[azure bay]

Stop

You know nothing about their motives

You have no evidence of what they want

You are writing another fanfic

[bright parrot]

In 1st chapter dale sees laura murdered by a CS

Now if he remembers the ch1 in ch2

He hates CS just to find out that he is the CS

[azure bay]

You are overthinking

We don't know his mindset as a cs

[bright parrot]

Paradox is in his mind

[azure bay]

We don't know his mindset afterwards

[bright parrot]

The only reason of paradox is to get something in his head

[azure bay]

No

That's just a baseless leap

[bright parrot]

So what's the reason of paradox

[azure bay]

The choice

The test

Could be both, could be neither

I'm picking those spoken out loud

You are taking a movie trope without a substancial reason

[bright parrot]

Test of what

[azure bay]

To escape, for example

[bright parrot]

It is about the choice it's about acceptance
Dale is given many choices and he has to choose one of them

But he is not accepting any choice and thus the cycle continues

[bright parrot]

There was no escape in paradox just revelation.
And it's in his mind so it's futile to escape

[azure bay]

There was a way out

Even 2

That could be still counted as 1 if we paraphrase

There's an overarching plot

Paradox has it's place in the timeline

Then what are u doing here?

[bright parrot]

<@&358613639554400258>

[ebon aspen]

Yeah this guy was on our watchlist

[azure bay]

Ok, he's clearly trolling

[ebon aspen]

Good grief

[azure bay]

Anyways

[bright parrot]

What's the way out in paradox

[azure bay]

Getting one of secret endings

[bright parrot]

There is one of two cases in paradox
1.) It's a loop and will not stop till it's stopped from outside.
2.) It will not stop till the choice is made

(The choice here can be the choice person accepts or it can be an illusion of choice)

[azure bay]

I don't think there's any illusion

If Dale sacrifices himself, Owl's plan will be ruined but at the same time the lake will be greatful

Finding the GC, on the other hand is the real exit. Dale can arguably find anytime

[bright parrot]

It's like red pill blue pill

They get him super excited for red pill and then present a choice

Which if person is easily convinced is an illusion of choice

[azure bay]

You know nothing

Your mind is filling the gaps based on your biases

And cultural background

It's you seeing that

[bright parrot]

It was an example

Paradox is filled with choices related to laura

That it's hard to choose death for dale

[azure bay]

But not necessarily the devs putting it in

[bright parrot]

Idk

Everyone wants dale to live

Even in game

Plus

Owl wants him to live and kill laura

Paradox was owl's plan

Connect the dots

[azure bay]

Our brains find patterns no matter if they are there for real

That's how they work

If you want to negate that as much as possible, you seek for clues to prove specific things

There are no clues that it's an illusion of choice

[bright parrot]

It's not a typical illusion of choice but it's more of a forced choice

[azure bay]

There are no clues that Owl has a coplete control over Dale's mind

[bright parrot]

White cube belongs to owl

He brought dale to white cube

He was mastermind behind case 23

He's controlling dale like a puppet

[azure bay]

And yet Dale may choose to die despite all

And the lake loves Laura more

[bright parrot]

Because dale is ______ (fill the blank idk the word)

[bright parrot]

I won't say love but yes
He's obsessed and more he doesn't want live with the guilt of her killing her

[azure bay]

It's not what I'm saying

The lake

[bright parrot]

It was lale

Yeah

So I thought dale

Laura has so many memories

Maybe that's what lake wants

[bright parrot]

Elaborate

[azure bay]

Idk how, idk why, not the memories for sure any person would have roughly the same amount of them and Laura's memories belong to the lake since The Mill, but The Lake is specifically greatful for saving Laura

We don't know how much liberty Dale has left by Owl

Maybe it is an illusion of choice

Maybe it's a test

[bright parrot]

See now you are getting what I was saying

[bright parrot]

We don't know how lake works maybe that's why this question is hard to answer

[azure bay]

I was getting it from the start. My message is different

We may guess but we almost never know

[bright parrot]

Here we just mark out the possibile answers

[azure bay]

And we should word them as such

[bright parrot]

Also what was your message

[azure bay]

That we have no clues and we're guessing. One of the guesses may hit, none may and there's something else we're missing out

Could be illusion

Could be test

Could be a normal elixir process

[bright parrot]

It doesn't matters if it's an illusion or a test

The outcome would be one of these

1 dale kills laura

2 dale dies for laura

Which we'll know in future games

[azure bay]

We already know the outcome of the choice of Paradox

Dale took the elevator

[bright parrot]

And

[azure bay]

That's the ch2 secret ending

[bright parrot]

No like

What choice he made

[azure bay]

He chose to accept the consequences and seek for the exit

At least in the timeline we're following

[bright parrot]

Did he choose to die?

Also paradox was probably stopped by crow from outside

[azure bay]

I don't rhink so

[azure bay]

Then he'd die

[bright parrot]

What was that machine for

[azure bay]

To create the gc

And likely to create Paradox

[bright parrot]

Then how's paradox running in his mind

I thought that machine was for paradox

And if it's for paradox

Then there must also be a Laura paradox

Or season's is Laura's paradox

Here paradox is just the name of scenario

Not the actual condition like dale

[azure bay]

There must not. Seasons looks NOTHING like Paradox. It's more like Birthday. The only Paradox Laura needs is her appearance in Dale's Paradox

[bright parrot]

So are they neglecting Laura

And making dale the main protagonist

[azure bay]

I have no idea

Could be due to her corruption

[bright parrot]

If both characters are equally developed then there will be a Laura's paradox

To give the choice

(Maybe)

[azure bay]

There likely won't be

Her VR box was built differently

[bright parrot]

Then paradox was illusion of choice if we look at the bigger picture.

If dale dies for Laura then that would disappoint the fans
If they want dale to die then they would have to develop Laura

So either
Dale live Laura die
Both die
Or both live

[azure bay]

Damn no. We don't know that.

[bright parrot]

As a fan or RL

Would you like to see dale die for Laura

Laura is a side character or incomplete main character for now

[azure bay]

That doesn't matter because we see otherwise

We follow the different story

We know nothing on what exactly would happen otherwise

We know nothing on why it's Dale to make the choice

For example her corruption could be a big red flag

Possibly for a limited ability to reason and act

And all the aftermath we see is Laura being alive in Paradox and the cube of Paradox turning white

Maybe she became alive for real and Dale absorbed all her corruption

Maybe he didn't absorb all and she, semi-corrupted, took her own elevator trip

Maybe that retroactively changed the timeline so Dale killed hilself and she somehow got involved

Maybe nothing happened, Dale just died and Laura was free to take her cubes and start Seasons

[bright parrot]

In conclusion she's probably under development

We got UB

And devs are now focusing on their incomplete protagonist

Laura

Harvey

Rose and albert are side characters to 1 game was more than enough for them

[azure bay]

Well, Laura's story already has a satisfying end

I don't really think we'll get to explore more her role in Paradox

[bright parrot]

It's small story with no highlights

We don't know much about her

Like we know about dale

Her past and future both are more mysterious than dale

[azure bay]

Her future is pretty much Seasons

[bright parrot]

And still we know less about her

[bright parrot]

We see the future but we don't know the story

Laura is an important character because she's william

And still there is not enough material on her story

Which highly suggest a game in future

[azure bay]

Her role as William is fulfilled in The Cave.

[bright parrot]

Dale was a normal person

And still he's quiet developed

[bright parrot]

Laura is not william so maybe she has her story to live too

[azure bay]

Seasons

[bright parrot]

Williams memory are foggy

[azure bay]

Why does it matter?

[bright parrot]

If you see laura as william

The she must be william

[azure bay]

I don't

I say that the importance of her past life has reached its end in The Cave

It played its role and is likely irrelevant since

[bright parrot]

Seasons is like mini TWD regular life of irregular person

Where as game with dale are like RL roots they contain lot about the character

[azure bay]

I mean UB will fill the gaps but it will hardly change what we know of Laura's arc.

[bright parrot]

She being william was her hook

So it's either a Laura game or bye bye Laura

[cyan jolt]

guys does anyone wanna play tpw with me

[bright parrot]

Yes like other RL games UB will also be more about protagonist (I believe)

[bright parrot]

#🔍｜tpw-looking-for-player

[cyan jolt]

no ones replying tho 😭

[azure bay]

Well, she's got involved in the ritual for some reason. Owl's crew took an effort to recapture her

[azure bay]

You either wait or seek for those who stopped waiting earlier

[bright parrot]

Someone will come in short time if you want to talk about something other than theory please go to #🩸｜general-chat

[cyan jolt]

k

[bright parrot]

We know more about albert than Laura

Maybe UB will provide some story

But if the game is like demo then it won't be enough

[azure bay]

Backstory provide it will

And something about the future and different timelines

[bright parrot]

Develope Laura and Harvey They must

[azure bay]

I'm just cautious with predictions. Keep my expectations low.

[bright parrot]

Let's see how much future
1.)Till her death
2.) After her death
3.) After paradox

[bright parrot]

True

[azure bay]

The synopsis's speaking of clearing her mind from corruption

Sounds like Seasons

I won't be surprised if we bring her a flower in the end

[bright parrot]

That's would be a wonderful moment

[stone talon]

UB Theory

||holy crap wait did Harvey raise laura?? that'd make sense, she took pictures, gave us the film, a shadow of Harvey was one of the photos, which is most likely who we're playing as.. he's taking care of Laura that means.. oh God I have more to this but it hurts my head||