when does that happen in Seasons
#🤔｜theories
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azure bay
when you click it in winter and later on
the direction changes
Back to this
memory has to be "distorted" by someone
like Owl placing a new present or changing the programme of his theatre
but in Seasons the cactus wasn't there initially
it was Laura who planted it
and here we see it in Case 23 and The Mill
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Presumably the cactus was originally in the living room and Laura just inserted it in her memory of the other room in seasons
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she grew it from a seed
and the grow stage of fall was consistent across all the games
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I think they just reused assets tbh
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another thing is the photo of Laura's house
there are both Laura and a CS there
either the one that killed her or her own from the future
Also
the devs confirmed timelines during gamescom 2021
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the devs confirmed timelines during gamescom 2021
what did they say
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q: Will there be multiple timelines?
a: Don't we already have them?
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but it's beautiful
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maybe UB will go more into it
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the cubes contain real worlds
REAL
and you can't normally travel across them
only put an active effort into creating your own ones
everyone can be happy but at the same time everyone has to work for it
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you told yourself that cubes contain worlds
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yeah and that world gets changed but it doesn't impact the real world
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but there's no real world in this case
they are all equally real
or unreal
they follow the same laws of logic and magic
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Sure
but even then, the real world is still distinct from the memories. The real world exists outside the surface of the lake
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but even then, the real world is still distinct from the memories. The real worl...
I think in this case the surface could be a portal into the nexus
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yeah sure
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a mount Sumeru existing in the center of samsara realms
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sure
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So to recap, you're saying all the memory worlds are inside the lake "dimension"?
azure bay
I'm saying that all the worlds exist inside the lake dimension and have a physical location to enter it
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so like this
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ok, forgot 1 thing
maybe not all the cubes are floating there
some may still exist inside people's minds
and outside them
or they do..
on some extradimensional level?
back to Dale, he memories weren't extracted for real
we just didn't see that
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The lake is just this knot point of past and future and all other layers of reality, so if you break out of a memory, you end up inside the lake, I guess
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The lake is just this knot point of past and future and all other layers of real...
eventually, I think
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No, Dale's memories were extracted. We saw his physical cubes
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No, Dale's memories were extracted. We saw his physical cubes
but at the same time he had his memories himself
he could remember
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Well, technically we don't know if extracting memories steals them
Since all previous people were dead
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he could tell that "the past isn't what it seemed to be"
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Well, technically we don't know if extracting memories steals them
BKM proves that it does
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I mean, Laura in Paradox seems to remember everything
Maybe its because they're both semi-corrupted, so they do remember?
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BKM proves that it does
I'm very skeptical about using ARGs to determine the lore
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I'm very skeptical about using ARGs to determine the lore
maybe the story is lackluster but the documents have to be created with lore in mind
an experimental service of memory extraction warning about possible soul corruption
and denying mentally ill clients
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yeah but does it say you lose those memories? I'm legit asking, I did not have the patience to look at all the BKM stuff
I really dislike ARGs
azure bay
yeah but does it say you lose those memories? I'm legit asking, I did not have t...
it implies it. The reviews bring up an example of a stuntman who was afraid of height because of childhood memory of falling from a tree and thus not being able to accept a good job offer
or a couple wanted to forget something that was bringing them to a verge of a break-up
vivid bridge
yeah that makes sense
But again, Laura seems to remember her past in Paradox. Or you could argue that Mr. Rabbit remembers his past in Birthday
azure bay
yeah that makes sense
It was "the future" Laura
and she seemingly knew even more than she normally would
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going back to the original point, Dale very specifically says that all his memories were captured in little cubes. Maybe the paradox-machine copies them without destroying them in the person's head or maybe because Dale is only half-corrupted he can remember them or something like that
But his cubes in the lake are actual physical memory cubes
azure bay
going back to the original point, Dale very specifically says that all his memor...
I think the memories were either "extracted" by the lake without breaking the mental link
or they are just there because it's a crazy multiverse
a little detail
The guests didn't have their memories extracted initially
at least not all of them
they didn't only have a black cube each
they were them
and only in the cave we see their cubes separately but still able to pacify them
remotely
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I'm guessing black cubes are inherently linked to the corrupted soul and in the hotel's case, the souls only appear when you click on the cube for dramatic effect
I don't think they are the cubes
azure bay
there are other examples that could be interpreted as CS hiding in black cubes
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I don't think they *are* the cubes
that would make sense, as I think about it
at least partially
if we speak of souls as our personalities, they are built on memories
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Like you said, its implied in The Cave that their cubes are separate so Hotel seems to just be for dramatic effect
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Like you said, its implied in The Cave that their cubes are separate so Hotel se...
I just saw a pattern. Dale entered the lake and (at face value) imidiately saw his cubes around
so could be the guests
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That seems like a stretch. He seems to know that they are his memories
and again, the quote about seeing his cubes is said AFTER paradox
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you have to accept at least the ambiguity
I really don't. I'm kinda shocked that this is something that you disagree on
Like we literally see him say the line in Birthday
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we see but not much changed
he started flickering and we don't even know what it means
And Dale has to be conscious in Case 23 he walked to the big cube after all
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when he is connected to Laura and experiencing Paradox, both he and Laura seem to be switching between being corrupted and not being that. That's why i'm saying he that he seems to be semi-corrupted in Birthday and Theatre
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when he is connected to Laura and experiencing Paradox, both he and Laura seem t...
we know how it looks from outside
but what does it really mean?
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I'm guessing you need both him and Laura semi-alive to do the thing they're gonna do in the future so Dale took some of her corruption or something like that
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in 2015 when there was no Paradox, no elixir and no golden cube we saw Dale celebrating his descent into the lake and noticing the difference right away
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I mean, even back then, I was confused by how his memories were suddenly extracted and why he was half-corrupted
Paradox and The Cave gave us what happened between Case 23 and Birthday
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but they still didn't show the extraction
In Paradox Dale remembers the woman and Case 23
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yeah but his extracted memories are right there
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what is that supposed to mean?
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ah, you mean physically outside his head
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but it didn't. Specifically in Paradox He remembers his birthday, he remembers Laura and he remembers Case 23. Heck, there's even a minigame of him sorting out his memories
it possibly could be in the end of Paradox
but still
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yeah okay I know he remembers but again, his physical cubes are there. So clearly they were extracted somehow. Presumably without deleting them from his head
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yeah okay I know he remembers but again, his physical cubes are there. So clearl...
I was personally explaining that by the lake magic
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like the lake can take them out gently without breaking the bond
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saying "the lake did it" is kind of a cheap trick, though
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and then put them back
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saying "the lake did it" is kind of a cheap trick, though
it is
but recently I've got a new idea
what if these memories come from a different Dale somewhere in the multiverse?
or from the future?
if there was always someone flushing the memories down the lake then all the memories that ever existed can theoretically end up there
earlier or later
and if time doesn't exist in the lake, they are somewhat "always" there
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I mean, that could be it but we really don't have any proof of that
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I mean, that could be it but we really don't have any proof of that
we don't
only overthinking vague phrasing
but, to be fair, Dale didn't regrow his beard during the monthы that passed outside the lake
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Dale only had his beard in Paradox, which was a simulation
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Dale only had his beard in Paradox, which was a simulation
I think it was a constructed dream that ended with a memory of that dream
there is some logic
like the black cube of Paradox changing to white in a secret ending
or Dale preserving his wound
he gets it in ch1 and it stays since even into the movie
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yeah but that doesn't have an effect on the real world. Dale is still shaven
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yeah
but here's a fun theory
he could regrow his beard in his mind
ch1 wasn't the 1st iteration
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they freeze him for a month and thaw him out when he grows a beard
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Also I think Paradox was happening exclusively during seconds while the machine was operating
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Yeah
It happens during the time when you put connect them with the machine during The Cave
woven harness
Keeping me up at night since last year
I don’t understand the relationship between both families
bright parrot
Keeping me up at night since last year
Damn that's interesting
woven harness
Thank u 🥲 i wanted to share but none of the people around me know about the games
Omg
If rose looks like Caroline, and rose’s mother is ida
Ida might be an eilander :0
woven harness
Yeah but she has parents
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Her last name is from her husband
bright parrot
Her last name means traveller/nomad in dutch
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Ohhh what is it ?
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Daaamn that’s cool af
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Rose looking like Caroline can be a coincidence
Or maybe she's related to owl
She got the features of Ida
woven harness
I don’t understand anything about the eilanders
bright parrot
But looks like twin sister to Caroline
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But looks like twin sister to Caroline
Exactly 😭
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I don’t understand anything about the eilanders
Eilanders are quiet messed up.
They follow nicholas blindly
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Do u have time to talk about them
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Sure
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Thankss
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Do they all die at the end i forgot
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They tried to kill Jakob
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Did Caroline sacrifice herself so they don’t take her son? Or im dumb
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Jakob became immortal
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Did Caroline sacrifice herself so they don’t take her son? Or im dumb
What I think is they thought Caroline was a witch @azure bay
woven harness
Ohh
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She was smarter then them all combined
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Jakob became immortal
He appears in paradox 2 in the globe right
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Nicholas knew she was not a witch but wanted the elixir
Jakob is mr.Owl
So he appears in almost every game
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Nicholas knew she was not a witch but wanted the elixir
But Caroline didn't gave them elixir and her death looks like a witch trial
Something like this
Maybe Caroline was witch
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Though death of jakob and he becoming immortal is hard to understand, even for me like whom did he try elixir with.
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What did nicholas become
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Nicholas became the deer
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Ohh!!
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In hotel
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We still don’t know anything about how the lake happened to be cursed right
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Yeah
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What I think is they thought Caroline was a witch <@351360215268196373>
Well, they'd be sorcerers themselves. If it was faith-based she'd be rather a heretic. But I don't think that was the reason. At face valie she asked to be taken instead of Jakob.
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Yeah that’s what they show
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Well, they'd be sorcerers themselves. If it was faith-based she'd be rather a he...
Why did they want jakob
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I think because he's the 1stborn
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Also what do you think of my theory
Theatre and Birthday were for preparing dale for paradox and paradox is like what we did to laura in mill
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Both are wrong
woven harness
Idk if this has to do with something too
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Paradox is not The Mill in any way.
The Mill was memory extraction
Paradox was the choice
Who lives and who dies
And it's before Bd and Theatre
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So you think paradox happened first
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I'm sure it did. That's the consensus among theorists who thought about it for at least 5 minutes
We may disagree on many topics but not Paradox
The major evidence is the secret ending of ch2 repeating the ending of The Cave
And The Cave is before Bday and Theatre
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Why was robert taken to the facility
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So the Vanderboom brothers hate each other
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So the Vanderboom brothers hate each other
Why?
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Im asking
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No, strangely enough, Aldous was very loyal to William in Roots
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It looked like aldous already knew that his brother would die if he drinks the elixir and he’d be the one to be immortal
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The dog is immortal because they tried the elixir on him right
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I mean
Sure its life is prolonged
But it has to die eventually when the elixir will wear off
Crow and Owl are weak in The Cave
And they use dog's feces to extract the elixir
woven harness
Ohhhh
azure bay
It means that the elixir particles are slowly leaving the dog's body
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And they still give powers when reconsumed
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I love this 🥲
These games never fail to amaze me
Thank you guys for taking the time to explain
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Any time
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I'm sure it did. That's the consensus among theorists who thought about it for a...
Holy crap yes
Now that I notice in case 23 his elevator goes down and after cave it goes up and in bday and theatre it's going up
And in case 23 elevator just had one button
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Holy crap yes
Now that I notice in case 23 his elevator goes down and after cave...
It seems, I have been saying that here
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Then where did the golden cube go
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Also here's a gap in Dale's timeline
What happened before paradox and after case 23
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Also here's a gap in Dale's timeline
What happened before paradox and after case...
The Cave mural
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1) didn't go anywhere
2) was taken by Bat for safekeeping
Or maybe he is using the cube
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The Cave mural
That's the short answer. Maybe there will be a game on dale following this event
Coz many believe that paradox is after bday and theatre
bright parrot
Because paradox came out after them
Yup RL changed majorly after Paradox
@azure bay
Do we see dale entering white cube in paradox
Actually or metaphorically
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We see that on The cave Mural
bright parrot
We see that on The cave Mural
We see cave mural of Vanderbooms making elixir
But the game was in more depth
The mural may give basic skeleton to story
Is dale related to ida
Her last name means traveller
And in book under dale it says the traveller
The paradox (after we open the door and roam in forest) is the process of dale going to white cube
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Not really. Everything in Paradox is simply a simulation
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or a constructed dream
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or that
The part of the forest that Dale goes through to reach the white cube house is the dead forest part we see in The Cave
so not the same thing
bright parrot
Not really. Everything in Paradox is simply a simulation
Yes and that part is representation of how dale got in white cube
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ehh sure but that part might also just be a cool visual they wanted to do
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They are not exactly the same but maybe that part is used to convey that message
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ehh sure but that part might also just be a cool visual they wanted to do
Maybe
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Harvey also dreamed of the forest when he was high from opium. I don't think that means anything. The forest is just a cool visual
bright parrot
That can be the case
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The Paradox forest is different to the one at the lake bottom
the lake trees are always black or grey
in Paradox they have a clear bark texture
some of them are even birch trees
also there are traces of civillization
like timber
wooden barriers
the wall
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to be fair, I do think they are the same forest visually, previous games just never gave us a closeup looks
bright parrot
The Paradox forest is different to the one at the lake bottom
Also lake bottom doesn't looks like it's filled with water and still owl used dive suit
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to be fair, I do think they are the same forest visually, previous games just ne...
I'd speculate that it's rather the surface forest. It has a trail leading to the shore
azure bay
its all fake anyways
could take real places, objects and persons as a reference
vivid bridge
sure
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also a fun fact
Laura's lake flashback from Summer looks a lot like the Paradox ending
she's in the middle of the lake
then a CS
then a black cube
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It does
I think in both cases its a metaphor for Laura's death
They just use the same metaphor
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alternatively she could turn corrupted at the lake for real
like Bob did in TWD
or Case 23
or something else significant happened there
vivid bridge
well, in Paradox it's definitely a metaphor for her death and Dale's connection with her. In Seasons, you could argue that its a real event that happened where she corrupted temporarily like Bob
but there's not a lot of evidence for that
azure bay
If I were to speak of Paradox metaphors, Laura's death there rather seems about the elixir
Either she dies because of Dale
or Dale dies himself
bright parrot
They want dale to believe that he killed laura
bright parrot
That was paradox about
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so Dale is kinda killing Laura in a way
bright parrot
It was about self realisation
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That was paradox about
Paradox 1st and foremost was about the choice. Everything you say are baseless guesses out of blue
bright parrot
It was the illusion of choice
Just like blue pill redpill in matrix
My bad
Wrong example
vivid bridge
Paradox is about Dale's obsession with Laura. It teaches him that they can't both exist, if he wants Laura to live, he has to sacrifice himself (so he is metaphorically killing her again by living). He's stuck in the loop until he learns this fact
in the Ch1 secret ending, he sacrifices himself and Laura lives. If we see Ch2 secret ending as an extension of that, Dale has now learned the truth of their dynamic and is ready to move on
azure bay
Paradox is about Dale's obsession with Laura. It teaches him that they can't bot...
The obsession with Laura and Case 23 is rather limited to ch1. Ch2 is about Dale's path. The past trauma he needs to process in the present to be able to become something else in the future
that's one of the endings, it's there
it's not further developped but it's there
vivid bridge
we presumably still have one game to go where Dale reaches the hotel and becomes enlightened (or sacrifices himself so Laura can get enlightened)
azure bay
we presumably still have one game to go where Dale reaches the hotel and becomes...
for me it's almost for sure
vivid bridge
For all we know, Owl could have the prep talk with both of them. Dale is not guaranteed to become the next ruler of the lake
bright parrot
The obsession with Laura and Case 23 is rather limited to ch1. Ch2 is about Dale...
How is paradox processed
Like you play chapters in sequence or you choose one of those
azure bay
How is paradox processed
Like you play chapters in sequence or you choose one of...
what r u talking about?
azure bay
Dale goes through the loop in Ch1 -> Ch2 -> Movie -> Ch1 order
maybe Movie -> unseen Movie ch2
vivid bridge
or that yeah
since movie ends with him in the live action segment again
true true
bright parrot
Dale goes through the loop in Ch1 -> Ch2 -> Movie -> Ch1 order
What's the purpose of loop
Is it that he and laura can't live together
vivid bridge
yeah
plus Mr. Owl's pep talk to Dale
but I think the Laura-Dale dynamic is the main part
bright parrot
And he is given two choices either to die a human or kill her corrupted
(Which I think is a metaphor)
vivid bridge
well killing her is a metaphor for him living and her staying dead
the loop happens because Dale keeps trying to save Laura
vivid bridge
No, if he sacrifices himself, she can live
thats the ch1 secret ending
but Dale is trying to have his cake and eat it too. He's trying to live himself and save Laura
bright parrot
Paradox is in his mind in white cube right?
vivid bridge
yeah
vivid bridge
its not about making a choice, the choices ultimately don't matter since its only in his head. The important part is that Dale realizes the dynamic between him and Laura and that he learns about his role in rusty lake
bright parrot
its not about making a choice, the choices ultimately don't matter since its onl...
I thought it's more of brainwash.
Death and murder of Laura are more highlighted then his.
He even accepted his death which means he made a choice but the loop continues thus creating a illusion of choice
vivid bridge
the death of Laura is more prominent because Dale is not willing to sacrifice himself for most of it. Dale's death is only a secret ending cause it takes a long time in the loop for him to come to that conclusion
bright parrot
And the loop still continues right?
vivid bridge
There is nothing really in the game that causes the loop to stop. You just put in the symbols from the achievements and get the golden cube. That's why I think its directly tied to Chapter 1's secret ending, which works the same way. So you could argue that the loop stops because Dale accepted the fact that he can save Laura by sacrificing itself
bright parrot
There is nothing really in the game that causes the loop to stop. You just put i...
So how will it stop by someone from outside
vivid bridge
what do you mean
azure bay
There is nothing really in the game that causes the loop to stop. You just put i...
since we don't see continuation and instead see Laura's perspective during the aftermath, I can say for sure the loop did stop there
also
in the movie all 3 vials are equally available
I take it as canon
and the rest as gameplay
vivid bridge
The loop stops when he gets the Golden Cube and gets out
but in-universe, we don't see what causes that (since he doesn't really put in numbers from the achievement menu)
so i'm guessing him drinking the green vial is what causes it
azure bay
so i'm guessing him drinking the green vial is what causes it
he dies in the movie version of this scene
vivid bridge
yeah but him dying there would be pretty stupid. It's all in his head
the point of it is to leave the loop
azure bay
yeah but him dying there would be pretty stupid. It's all in his head
you die in the matrix you die IRL, as they say
vivid bridge
yeah okay but the whole point of Paradox is to teach Dale. Having him die there is pretty stupid
azure bay
yeah okay but the whole point of Paradox is to teach Dale. Having him die there ...
the whole point of paradox is the choice
vivid bridge
but he doesn't actually make the choice. It's all in his head. It's there to teach him about the choice he has to make in the future
or, well, not even that. You don't have a say in who dies or not
azure bay
but he doesn't actually make the choice. It's all in his head. It's there to tea...
you don't know that
let me explain the loop
it always starts on a single condition
Dale has to get to the end and find the cube
We see Dale die
then we see only Laura in the end
It seems at least the forest outside the room is more objective than Dale's head
Dale is not the one creating it
vivid bridge
It all depends on what the Paradox machine is even supposed to do. If it exists to explain the whole "you can't both exist" thing, then having Dale actually die when drinking the green vial is pretty stupid
azure bay
The wording of paradox is the choice
"did you make the right choice?"
"did you really?"
"I know you've made your choice, please embrace your corrupted soul"
vivid bridge
the choice being that he drinks the juice that doesn't kill him. Seems like the right choice at first until that choice kills Laura
azure bay
in the green ending Dale's perspective ends for good, Laura's perspective carries on. I have spoken
vivid bridge
Yes, that is true. But i'm saying that doesn't make much sense to happen in the context of Paradox. It's supposed to teach Dale something
Can't teach him if he dead
azure bay
it's not necessarily about teching
it could be about testing
in ch2 specifically it's about exploring the past and foreshadowing the possible future
hence the alternative elder Laura
who asks him to make a move
bright parrot
yeah but him dying there would be pretty stupid. It's all in his head
Maybe it's like when you die in dream,
You wake up coz you don't know what happens after death.
But also its a loop so can't say
azure bay
so we could angrily argue about it 😱
azure bay
Maybe it's like when you die in dream,
You wake up coz you don't know what happe...
the loop is triggered by the cube in the end
bright parrot
the whole point of paradox is the choice
I strongly believe that it's an illusion of choice he must accept Laura's death.
azure bay
I strongly believe that it's an illusion of choice he must accept Laura's death.
beliefs need to pay rent, y'know
and the best payment is evidence
bright parrot
I can explain how illusion of choice is so well hidden in some cases that it's hard to believe.
Also some pointers on why it was an illusion of choice.
1st Illusion of choice.
Take blue pill red pill for ex.
They get him super excited for something
And then give him a choice
You see something super suspenseful and exclusive
Or you live your plain simple life
You can't reject the temptation
Or if you reject the offer, then it may run like a loop and you are again in blue pill red pill scenario.
NOW ILLUSION OF CHOICE IN PARADOX
Paradox takes one of these outcomes
1.) Dale die Laura live
2.) Laura die dale live
bright parrot
So death of Laura is so emphasized in the game
It's almost like a brainwash
To get you convinced to kill her
In this case loop repeats because
Dale wants to save her and ia not convinced
It will run till he's convinced
NOW IN DALE'S DEATH
It's very well hidden in game
And
When dale accepts death
The loop repeats again
Because that was not a favourable outcome
bright parrot
Dale died in which ch
azure bay
the one that turned white in Laura's hands
azure bay
Dale died in which ch
ch1 secret ending
bright parrot
Paradox is super branched
azure bay
Paradox is super branched
not really
azure bay
it more simple than you think
ch2 doesn't have to be much different from ch1
all the vials are equally available in the cabinet
bright parrot
you die in an alternative ch1
The loop starts from ch1 and ends at ch2 so it's not the end of loop it is breaking of loop
azure bay
The loop starts from ch1 and ends at ch2 so it's not the end of loop it is break...
ch1 wasn't the 1st iteration in the 1st place
azure bay
ch1: "I need to escape the room. I know, I did it before but the door is locked"
azure bay
But it's not the end of loop
it may be
bright parrot
Then that's it
azure bay
Then that's it
but still there can be and there are multiple iterations that look like ch1
the movie is a vivid example
bright parrot
Also we must see the game from our perspective and not Dale's.
Coz we are dale in that game and he's exploring the outcomes
So it's maybe more like a creative mode in game
azure bay
what is?
azure bay
he know all the outcomes through hints
he saw his death on the TV
he saw the CS on the painting
bright parrot
Then what I said is wrong
I was thinking of more like inception
The memory retains
But it doesn't
azure bay
retains after what?
bright parrot
After each ending
azure bay
it partially retains after the false endings
the ones that continue the loop
but the secret endings continue nothing
thus they are true endings
bright parrot
Maybe
Dale accepted his death and thus loop ended
He has to make a choice
He made a choice
And loop ended
Paradox is about either of these things
1.)Making a choice
2.) Illusion of choice
Loop ends when favourable results is obtained
bright parrot
Is that rose
ebon aspen
caroline
bright parrot
Is that tpw spoiler?
ebon aspen
Nope, if anything its one from paradise
bright parrot
Nope, if anything its one from paradise
How's she Caroline
Isn't she dead
And that woman appears to be Rose's age
bright parrot
No, yeah, the last img features rose
The left one?
ebon aspen
Yep
bright parrot
How do we know that
From ARG?
carmine field
How do we know that
From ARG?
TPW
azure bay
How do we know that
From ARG?
PLAY TPW AT LAST
bright parrot
~~PLAY TPW AT LAST~~
bright parrot
I wanna discuss about souls
What is the concept of soul
Is soul just a transition state
azure bay
the thing is, you don't even need to die to become one
bright parrot
the thing is, you don't even need to die to become one
That's temporary effect
Just like hybrid and human form of owl and crow
Maybe like that form feeds on elixir
azure bay
That's temporary effect
we don't have many examples to know that for sure
azure bay
she's a corrupted soul, just like Albert and we know what Albert was play tpw at last
and Dale
his case is impossible to identify
could be a completely new thing
azure bay
#🔍｜tpw-looking-for-player, the best solution
bright parrot
I'm stuck in examinations LOL
and it's sort of like promise to self
azure bay
ok
anyways
We've got CS that left their dead bodies behind
We've got CS that are dead corpses
and we've got CS that didn't even die
and my observations tell me that there's no consistent big differences between any of those
the fact that Bob gets corrupted several times is weird but it's too early to attribute it to him being alive
could be anything
delicate atlas
Yeah imo it's about bad experiences so upsetting that the person snaps and turns into one
Whether they're alive or dead they all go through something bad beforehand
Except Dale who had an elixir
CSs in general seem to be fueled by negative emotions
Like revenge in Laura's case
azure bay
Except Dale who had an elixir
We can't say if Dale is corrupted and why
delicate atlas
And in Bob's case he's fueled by depression
azure bay
Like revenge in Laura's case
In Laura's case it was bad memories extraction
delicate atlas
Caroline is the only exception because her CS doesn't do anything malicious
delicate atlas
In Laura's case it was bad memories extraction
Yeah right I forgot
azure bay
Caroline is the only exception because her CS doesn't do anything malicious
Neither William nor Albert went on rampage
azure bay
William did guide his family to do the sacrifices for him to be born
that's not so certain
delicate atlas
Idk about Albert though
delicate atlas
I think of it that way because of the way we play as him
He controls the environment around them
Like a spirit haunting their house or something
So he has an effect on their actions
azure bay
He controls the environment around them
The player is required to make the stuff happen but most of little things the player does doesn't make sense for William to be done
delicate atlas
How so?
azure bay
James is able to plant the tree on his own
The children can be very cruel towards someone different
delicate atlas
What about the thought bubbles?
azure bay
without any ghost intervention
delicate atlas
Since William could see them
And do something to make whatever the Vanderbooms want happen
azure bay
Since William could see them
It us, the players see them. Not so sure about William
azure bay
And do something to make whatever the Vanderbooms want happen
it us, the players do them
it's a game
azure bay
But we're playing as him
And in Theatre we play as Dale. We still click things to make them happen. Including the Lady of the Lake. But I doubt it was Dale who made her bleed
delicate atlas
Fair
azure bay
there are some places where William's part is clear
delicate atlas
Oh?
azure bay
He took his own body from the clock while James was sleeping
And took his own heart
Ida spoiled him Roots
William is the most active towards the end when it's clear that he needs the grandchildren
he saves Leonard
and most importantly he communicates with Rose
basically asks her for help
delicate atlas
I see
azure bay
instead of pulling strings from shadows
delicate atlas
Thanks for the explanation
So I guess it's a 50/50 situation
Sometimes he does affect things on purpose, while other times he let things flow their way
gray sand
so a theory i had a while ago (that’s probably nothing new) is that the way the animals die in hotel is reflective of how the eilanders could have died after the events of paradise?
i love the eilanders and paradise is my favorite game, so i’ve done a lot of thinking about this.
starting with ms pheasant, she is implied to have shot herself. ms pheasant is the reincarnation of elizabeth eilander, jakob’s younger sister. my thoughts on her death are that she may have been unable to live with the guilt of being responsible for killing her mother and brother and taken her own life.
mr rabbit corresponds with david eliander, jakob’s youngest brother. he is performing a magic trick (sword in the box) when he is killed by the trick. david may have been showing off or doing something stupid (i believe in canon he has 15 year old boy disorder) and died as a result.
mr boar, the reincarnation of gerard eliander, jakob’s uncle, died from harvey causing an axe to drop on his head while he was distracted by food. Gerard is also very much a glutton for food in Paradise, and my thought is he could have either eaten something that killed him or been distracted by food and been killed as a result.
mrs. pigeon is the reincarnation of margaret eliander, jakob’s grandmother. mrs pigeon dies by getting electrocuted in the bathtub with the help of the younger bird completing the circuit. margaret could have been killed by another member of the family, or her death could have been an accident caused by the actions of another family member.
finally we have mr deer, the reincarnation of nicholas eliander, jakob’s father. he is killed via poisoning, which makes me think that he may have been murdered by another family member in a similar method possibly as revenge for leading the ceremony that killed jakob and caroline.
let me know what you guys think! i’m always open to discussing the theory further.
azure bay
so a theory i had a while ago (that’s probably nothing new) is that the way the ...
Actually, that's something new
gray sand
oh? i honestly wasn’t expecting that! it was the fruits of my rusty lake hyperfixation
i find the elianders absolutely fascinating and really hope they make an appearance in future games
azure bay
Well, Dale is expected to deal with their corrupted souls
gray sand
true
azure bay
so a theory i had a while ago (that’s probably nothing new) is that the way the ...
one of the weak points of this theory is assumption that the Eilanders didn't reach their enlightenment right after they performed the sacrificial ritual
azure bay
you mean Caroline?
gray sand
yes, although there could be a myriad of reasons for that to have happened
wrong sacrifice for example
azure bay
I think the reason was that she wasn't their firstborn
gray sand
true
gray sand
wrong sacrifice for example
^^
azure bay
normally enlightenment is a pretty instant thing. However on the other hand we've got the ages of the guests
and they don't correspond Eilanders
Boar is the eldest
and he's 54 in 1893
gray sand
that doesn’t mean they still don’t correspond
they could simply be allegories made by jakob for revenge
gray sand
it has?
gray sand
and if he was enlightened so all the rest have to
and that’s not entirely true
azure bay
enlightenment is a big deal
gray sand
yes
azure bay
having even 1 chance is huge
gray sand
the elianders technically had two if you count caroline even though it didn’t work
azure bay
and the one that David had was in common with
and if there were more, they are likely to be in common too
gray sand
it actually kind of might make sense that the others didn’t get enlightened but david did because of the difference in appearance of mr rabbit
i don’t know if that actually makes sense to you lol
azure bay
bare in mind that Rabbit died in Hotel and turned corrupted
gray sand
yep
azure bay
in Hotel I mean
gray sand
so did all the others
we haven’t seen them very much lately but oh god i really want more eilander lore
azure bay
and in Bday there's evidence of Rabbit still being corrupted
gray sand
rabbit is def corrupted
i just wonder if the hotel deaths have something to do with the eilanders if the ritual failed
azure bay
I don't expect it failing
gray sand
or possibly how jakob saw all his family members
how he might have wanted to exact revenge
azure bay
It was the great day of the lake
gray sand
yes i know
azure bay
foretold in prophicies
azure bay
we still have no way of truly knowing
the devs make a very big deal of it so I believe it's true unless deliberately told otherwise in the future
gray sand
with the things we’ve talked about i think the hotel guests deaths may have been jakob taking his own revenge in specific ways based on the lives of the eilanders
it may not have been reflections of their actual deaths, but rather how jakob saw it most cruel to get revenge. preying on how they actually were in life and how he thought of them in life
knowing his family members could not die properly because of the ritual he used this to let off steam in a way
azure bay
at the same time I'm not sure of Hotel being about Owl's revenge. His goal was their white cube about the future. That was how he discovered Dale.
Also I don't really see any point in this supposed revenge.
- Owl has no reason to avenge himself because he's the one who truly won.
- Owl has no reason to avenge Caroline because to sacrifice herself to create Owl was her plan from the start.
- The guests aren't technically Eilanders. They don't seem to have memories of their past lives or actions. And new memories mean new identities and personalities. They are technically innocent.
gray sand
vengeance is a complicated thing, and remember that owl shares both jakob and caroline’s essence. just because they do not have memories of their past lives does not mean they couldn’t have been the eilanders previously or were an allegory for the eilanders.
getting the white cube was his end goal but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t have had some “fun” while he was at it
azure bay
vengeance is a complicated thing, and remember that owl shares both jakob and ca...
I disagree, Owl identifies himself exclusively as Jakob and moreover that's not how the elixir works. One dies so the other one gets enlighenment
that rule is consistent
gray sand
true sorry
azure bay
even mentioned in Caroline's book
gray sand
so you think the guests aren’t at all related to the eilanders?
gray sand
they don’t remember anything from that life
they wouldn’t, it’s a past life and they’d have to do a lot to remember it
azure bay
well
gray sand
in theory at least
azure bay
Crow remembers
gray sand
they could be like laura
azure bay
Owl too
azure bay
especially considering that Jakob died for real
gray sand
i know my theory isn’t exactly feasible within the information we’re given, but i thought it was a cool thought process
i will still hunger for more lore about the eilanders
azure bay
personally I want a game especially about Rabbit's perspective
his adventures to his rebirth
possibly ended in Bday
gray sand
i do stand by my idea of the deaths in hotel having something to do with the eilanders in life, whether it’s a reflection of how jakob saw them or post ritual deaths (assuming the ritual failed which is unlikely)
i think the former is more likely to be true
azure bay
i do stand by my idea of the deaths in hotel having something to do with the ei...
back to the ages. What I meant by them not corresponding Eilanders
azure bay
hear me out
azure bay
the guests are the Eilanders if Mr. Rabbit is. Their fates were tied together. Their ages may've been retconned or have an in-lore explanation
gray sand
mr rabbit also could have somehow escaped the events of hotel and been replaced by the brown mr rabbit instead
azure bay
mr rabbit also could have somehow escaped the events of hotel and been replaced ...
I find this just as unlikely
azure bay
Boar is the oldest one but even he wasn't born during Paradise. But what if he was REborn back then?
what if the Eilanders still lived and their elnightenment was only delayed?
gray sand
you mean it goes backwards?
gray sand
what if the Eilanders still lived and their elnightenment was only delayed?
you said earlier that enlightenment has been mostly instant
that’d contradict that point
azure bay
that’d contradict that point
The may or may not be an exception
after all they were not enlightened in the same way we've seen before
plus the ages
they may or may not be retconned
azure bay
so assuming they were not, if we were to make sense of them, Eilanders could die and be reborn 1 by 1
gray sand
and the deaths in hotel correspond to how they die before becoming reborn
azure bay
no
gray sand
enlightenment could be reached upon death
azure bay
that's not what I mean
gray sand
?
azure bay
I mean that Boar is 54, Deer is 49, Rabbit and Pigeon have the same age and Pheasant is the youngest
gray sand
yesh
azure bay
what if Gerard died 1st 54 years ago?
followed by his brother
then Margaret
and so on
gray sand
so just to make sure we’re on the same page, are you saying the enlightenment was delayed until the eilanders died, then they were reborn in enlightenment?
azure bay
so just to make sure we’re on the same page, are you saying the enlightenment wa...
that's the theory
or maybe not exactly 54 years ago
gray sand
so a theory i had a while ago (that’s probably nothing new) is that the way the ...
alright, so what i’m saying is the when the eilanders died, this theory came into place
azure bay
yep
gray sand
that how they died in real life is mirrored in hotel
azure bay
there's another one requiring Eilanders to live on for a while
gray sand
oh?
azure bay
and pretty cool one
gray sand
do tell
azure bay
do you remember the chapel from case 23?
gray sand
part of me really wishes the devs actually read these and responded to them but i get why they don’t lol
gray sand
do you remember the chapel from case 23?
indeed i do
azure bay
the fetus, the ink, the heart?
gray sand
yes
azure bay
we saw them in Theatre
gray sand
that we did (another game i love!)
azure bay
basically a baby from Pheasant's past life being covered in ink and leaving a heart from her past live behind is her son William being corrupted and using his old heart as a sacrifice
azure bay
but she needs to be alive at least till 1799 to give birth to Aldous
gray sand
i find it relatively unlikely that elizabeth had children
she never left paradise island
azure bay
she could afterwards
gray sand
possibly
azure bay
they still need to procreate somehow
gray sand
where would that fall in our timeline? we know pheasant was youngest in hotel
azure bay
the gap between Paradise and Roots is at least 63 years
gray sand
and she was what, late teens in paradise?
azure bay
yep
gray sand
she could have been aldous’s mother but it is unlikely
azure bay
that's the year of the alchemists' final stages of research
Aldous specifically was 60 back then
gray sand
mhm
azure bay
I'd expect her to be long dead at the point
gray sand
yes
azure bay
unless we stretch it and deem the rebirth non instant too
gray sand
i think that’s too much lol
gray sand
he could be unrelated and the theatre theory could just have been presentation of information
gray sand
true
azure bay
originally we find them via a key hidden in her skull
gray sand
she could very well be william and aldous’s mother
i think we’d need more information but i do hope we get it someday
maybe they’ll make another game featuring the human eilanders and i’ll get some answers to my theory!
i do wonder what others think of this conversation we had, it’s really interesting
covert wyvern
It's very cool we have a public channel like this so people can read along:)
gray sand
what do you think damy?
gray sand
it’s my brainchild lol
covert wyvern
I'm unsure if I like the concept of the animals dying before ascending?
gray sand
the idea is once the eilanders die they would then trigger the ascension and enlightenment
covert wyvern
O i see
gray sand
be immediately reborn
covert wyvern
I suppose mr owl is burned. Lmao
gray sand
yes exactly
covert wyvern
Food for thought!
gray sand
and the ways the actual eilanders die before being reborn are reflected in hotel as i said in my earlier theory
over here hoping the devs make another eilander game!
tawny pulsar
very small nitpick: in the eliander family photograph from 15 years ago, every single family member except nicholas has aged. probably means nothing 
covert wyvern
mhm definitely something fun to point out
gray sand
that is interesting
carmine field
It is possible that the guests have their own human forms, like Mr. Owl and Mr. Crow?
floral mauve
It is possible that the guests have their own human forms, like Mr. Owl and Mr. ...
I tend to believe so, magician and songstress
couldnt show their anthro head when they perform towards general audience can they
carmine field
There are some points:
- Mr. Rabbit and Ms. Pheasant commented that they would perform at the Theatre, which has so far been shown to be frequented by humans. Wouldn't that be weird?
- This could also explain Ms. Pheasant human form, although she was corrupted. Even though she looks nothing like Elizabeth Eilander, the human form of Mr. Owl doesn't look like Jakob, so it could be possible
floral mauve
There are some points:
- Mr. Rabbit and Ms. Pheasant commented that they would ...
good argument
tawny pulsar
the bat elevator guy from hotel does definetly not have a human form
floral mauve
the bat elevator guy from hotel does definetly not have a human form
funny about that
bat does
whar
floral mauve
I cant
floral mauve
sometime ago
2021 Koln
tawny pulsar
he cant speak and in cave he is literally just a bat!!!!!!!! 
tawny pulsar
well... he has dialogue..!!!
carmine field
he cant speak and in cave he is literally just a bat!!!!!!!! <:AlbertAngy:836233...
It's possible it's just an asset reuse
floral mauve
ultimate furry behaviour
floral mauve
I know but its still valid, Crow only caws in crow form
we see dialogue
maybe cuz William understood bird as CS
idk
tawny pulsar
so harvey does not speak bat is what youre saying
carmine field
the bat has no dialogue in the Hotel
floral mauve
Bat was just human
carmine field
but he must be able to speak off screen, since he was a human
tawny pulsar
interesting
floral mauve
but he must be able to speak off screen, since he was a human
probably, or he comprehends but refuses to speak
afterall, it probably doesnt matter
tawny pulsar
he is definetly capable of higher thought, as he is able to give the player a food ingredient and blocks the player going to the rooms during day
ok that makes more sense
carmine field
honestly, not sure if the bat from The Cave is Mr. Bat
I will tend to believe he isn't unless something is revealed in the future
floral mauve
honestly, not sure if the bat from The Cave is Mr. Bat
I will tend to believe he...
plus he isnt even that important as a side character
we got guests mystery unfinished
tawny pulsar
right
azure bay
There are some points:
- Mr. Rabbit and Ms. Pheasant commented that they would ...
the posters were about asura forms
I think it was for other asuras
also it could be a different theatre
if the poster of one opening in Bday isn't just a CE Theatre teaser
azure bay
I know but its still valid, Crow only caws in crow form
not in Paradox
floral mauve
not in Paradox
I guess in Dale's llittle head Crow talking human words certainly is possible
tbh, this tiny detail can be ignored
azure bay
I guess in Dale's llittle head Crow talking human words certainly is possible
there was also an interview with Bob. Not sure it's still canon tho
floral mauve
tbh, this tiny detail can be ignored
like we already saw Owl doing speeches, its not important to question whether asuras can speak or no, in human voice or no
carmine field
the posters were about asura forms
true, I took some screenshots of it
It may be that the Theatre was for asuras initially, having changed after Mr. Owl found out about Dale
azure bay
Could move to a different city
there's quite a distance between RL and Dale's city
(possibly New York)
carmine field
It's possible, considering that Mr. Owl wanted to find his successor, in addition to taking new memories to the Lake
gray sand
so a theory i had a while ago (that’s probably nothing new) is that the way the ...
@delicate atlas as requested, my true magnum opus and the fruits of my rusty lake hyperfixation
delicate atlas
Interesting
I like to think that Margaret got boiled to dead in her cauldron when someone turned it on while she was hiding in it as she for some reason always does
gray sand
that’s really funny
delicate atlas
Yeah idk why does she like to be inside it
But the bathtub filled with water reminds me of it
The one where Ms. Pigeon is bathing I mean
gray sand
that one was the toughest to pin down for me
delicate atlas
but she needs to be alive at least till 1799 to give birth to Aldous
That's indeed a cool theory
Not that much hard evidence but would be cool if it's true
Tying in the Eilanders with the Vanderbooms even more
carmine field
One theory I really like is that Albert's deer mask is Mr. Deer's skull
That mask was given by that bird-like corrupted soul, different from the other masks that Albert already owned
Maybe it will make more sense if more things about Albert are revealed in the future
delicate atlas
Oh interesting
plain token
i know that’s not very probable but what if william’s corrupted soul possessed laura’s body and then he got murdered by laura’s “original” corrupted soul
azure bay
i know that’s not very probable but what if william’s corrupted soul possessed l...
samsara doesn't work like that
William IS Laura
they and their souls are the same entity
plain token
I guess so
naive stratus
wait so who exactly is the deer corrupted soul? and he seems to be following harvey???
tawny pulsar
good question
azure bay
wait so who exactly is the deer corrupted soul? and he seems to be following har...
the most likely candidate for now is Albert
naive stratus
wait and laura too because we saw him in ce: the lake
er
not the lake
frickin case 23
azure bay
wait and laura too because we saw him in ce: the lake
no, that was Mr. Deer in case 23. Unless it was retconned
which is unlikely by default
azure bay
there, it was Bob and he had no antlers
azure bay
so he is following harvey and dale then?
Deer was haunting Dale once
well, twice, if we count all the guests together in The Cave
this guy is likely Albert. He's the one identified by the skull
Mr. Deer's antlers are as corrupted as he himself
naive stratus
got it. thanks!
final atlas
Every cube escape, rusty lake or something related has corrupted souls?
There aren't a single game WITHOUT they?
azure bay
Let me think...
azure bay
There aren't a single game WITHOUT they?
It seems so
Depending on what you consider corrupted there could be none in Birthday
If you exclude the secret scene
final atlas
If they appear, at least i consider corrupted so.
azure bay
I mean
Dale was semi-corrupted in Bday
Rabbit arguably was
And in the Escape is an easter egg to give Hotel its aftermath
final atlas
Rabbit arguably was
the mr. Rabbit's in the window of birthday
azure bay
the mr. Rabbit's in the window of birthday
Not everything that looks corrupted is corrupted. Sometimes these are just spooky silhouettes
final atlas
Oh, it makes sense
final atlas
Like illusions
azure bay
But personally I think it was a CS in Bday
So my answer is none.
Every game has at least 1 CS
sudden dust
Who the hell is Mr Toad?
Owl, Crow and the guests (to some degree) are all explained but I never caught on who mr toad was
Same for the Bat and that bird in Pigeon’s room
ebon aspen
So far we dunno
tawny pulsar
mr toad is only really related to the second paradise plague, where you cook frog soup. in the plague you also need to feed it to gerard(you could say he is the first to drink the soup but its a stretch) , and he is the last to be cooked by mr. toad
mr toad also looks nothing like the frogs so its a big stretch already
on who he is though is probably never going to be answered since hes a very minor character
sudden dust
Better question : I know the masks are magical already but what in the name of William’s left nipple is growing back Albert’s hair
tawny pulsar
i think thats just a graphical error
Heres him with the white mask and you can see his birthmark
floral mauve
the jar
carmine field
Who the hell is Mr Toad?
Owl, Crow and the guests (to some degree) are all expla...
The devs confirmed that both Mr. Toad as Mr. Bat were humans, and that's all we know about them
Considering that the Theatre was run by asuras and that Mr. Boar is an ambassador from somewhere, it is more likely that there is a society of asuras
carmine field
Heres him with the white mask and you can see his birthmark
(actually this is not his birthmark, but the scar caused by the beehive falling on his head)
visual coral
The devs confirmed that both Mr. Toad as Mr. Bat were humans, and that's all we ...
This is huge and gives so much to theorize about! Are there more bombshell secrets like that, that the devs confirmed?
azure bay
mr toad is only really related to the second paradise plague, where you cook fro...
welp... he isn't. It's a funny pattern but it seems coincidental
azure bay
Who the hell is Mr Toad?
Owl, Crow and the guests (to some degree) are all expla...
Mr. Toad and Mr. Bat used to be humans before working for Owl, as 7810 said
azure bay
Better question : I know the masks are magical already but what in the name of W...
@sudden dust @tawny pulsar @carmine field it's not an error, it's deliberate. This piece of hair is a separate asset placed over Albert's head.
So it's rather a symbolism. For example, of Albert feeling himself or being perceived by others normal only when he has masks on him.
plain token
how does he know mr owl?
vivid bridge
he read the script
floral mauve
crow hacking
I would say one day alchemists move back to RL got a reason
might be Owl who discovered them
plain token
I would say one day alchemists move back to RL got a reason
no jacob became mr owl after being sacrificed
floral mauve
What are you talking about
plain token
mr owl
floral mauve
Yea?
plain token
i don’t think he invented the elixir
floral mauve
No one said he did, he contributed plus Caroline definitely did
floral mauve
no jacob became mr owl after being sacrificed
Also he didn’t become Owl because he has been sacrificed
That’s two events
False causal relationships
plain token
The eilanders have nothing to do with the elixir ,ok? (As far as I’m aware at least)
floral mauve
The eilanders have nothing to do with the elixir ,ok? (As far as I’m aware at le...
Caroline note definitely says otherwise
Elixir isn’t the green liquid only
Has many forms
The one by the end of paradise, golden cube, even Time Machine in seasons
plain token
the elixir i’m refering to is the vanderboom made one
floral mauve
Then Owl could contribute to the making
It’s not 100% certain but at least they know Owl could mean this possibility
Of course also could mean nothing but the possibility exists
And I see no reason of not accepting it
plain token
that’s still irrelevant regarding aldous and jacob relationship
floral mauve
that’s still irrelevant regarding aldous and jacob relationship
How is that irrelevant
Jakob got elixir notes before the brothers and half a century later the brothers made the green liquid, and they know each other
plain token
so you suggest that they made the elixir together or they made a different elixir
floral mauve
so you suggest that they made the elixir together or they made a different elixi...
Together or what, at least Caroline note definitely is something
I personally see the brothers do have some advanced breakthroughs
plain token
so how does aldous know jacob
floral mauve
Especially William
floral mauve
so how does aldous know jacob
Jakob reached out to them I think
plain token
Jakob reached out to them I think
when?
plain token
excuse me?
floral mauve
Res ipsa loquitur
Always convenient in RL
Basically we got results
And it could tell already
If the brothers made elixir later than Caroline, they live next to the lake, and the brothers know Owl
It could tell already that Owl probably contributed something
Perhaps I cause confusion using Jakob and Owl interchangeably
plain token
So you say that jakb helped the brothers make the elixer
carmine field
I imagine the alchemist brothers used or studied Caroline's notes
Considering that Caroline's book was apparently updated by them
Mr. Owl and the alchemist brothers already knew each other, but I don't think Mr. Owl helped them create the elixir directly, as neither he nor Mr. Crow knew how to create the elixir to the point of depending on the feces of the immortal dog
It's important to notice that only William is the last creator of the elixir, according to the book in The Cave
carmine field
so how does aldous know jacob
no one knows how they met exactly, we only know that William had his property on Rusty Lake
It's possible that the brothers became alchemists under the influence of Mr. Owl, but who knows
carmine field
Mr. Owl and the alchemist brothers already knew each other, but I don't think Mr...
The only hole in the idea that Mr. Crow doesn't know how to create the elixir is called... James.
James was able to create the elixir just by looking at the ingredients and notes somehow, while Mr. Crow supposedly can't. Any ideas to explain this?
tawny pulsar
williams corrupted soul couldve helped him
but thats a bit of a stretch
he did help james enter the house via breaking a window to get the red diamond so its plausible
carmine field
he did help james enter the house via breaking a window to get the red diamond s...
actually that was Mr. Crow helping William (and consequently James)
tawny pulsar
there is a crow silhouette there when he does do it
carmine field
Yes, it's Mr. Crow