🤔｜theories

[ebon aspen]

Unless mr crow being the chaotic dude he is decide to pick bob again for funsies, he wont become dale's antagonist or smth

[azure bay]

nope, Bob had Owl personally interested in him

[ebon aspen]

But on a level to keep nurturing him to become a ultra important person to solve the lake issues?

[azure bay]

maybe

maybe not

I have a theory

maybe they really wanted to help Bob

but only after he was useful for them

(waiting for you to finish so I start explaining my point)

[ebon aspen]

My take on owl being interested on bob was his relationship with laura and his mental health (in the matter of memory research and stuff)
And yeah, i do think owl isnt a bad guy and helping others with mental issues being on his agenda wouldnt be a surprise, so killing 2 birds with a single stone was a win (wont argue about his means to do so, those sure were warped)
And we have the twd employees that seemed very interested in helping the patients

[bright parrot]

We never saw owl in TWD so how can you say that

(Yes the guy with glasses was not owl)

[ebon aspen]

He was

[azure bay]

he is, it's confirmed many times

I had my doubts before too

and if I have doubts I get really stubborn

but Manager is Owl after all

[azure bay]

yeah, something along those lines but I go more specific

Bob had 2 uses

1. in theatre they extracted his memories (TLS pretty much reflects what was happening to him in cube escape after the shot)

in Theatre the emphasis was on Laura's memories

so they already could have them in 1971

and according to Dale's memory, they probably did

2. bringing Dale a black cube as a part of Owl's test

and after using him these 2 times they try to bring him back to the state they took him in

Alternatively, just memories about Laura weren't enough and they suddenly needed his mind

Seems a bit weird but I don't consider RL being of top quality writing

[real lantern]

For the lake maybe?

Sorry, im in a place where the internet is very bad, but i'l be home in about 20 minutes give or take

[azure bay]

The lake doesn't care about memories being good or bad

[bright parrot]

No

Lake needs only good memories

Or white cubes

[real lantern]

Well, but we've seen what happens when the lake gets bad memories in the mill

[azure bay]

that's just not true

you contradict The Mill

and Paradise

and probably Hotel

[azure bay]

it's not about the lake getting them

it's about carelessly extracting them

[bright parrot]

Oh yes

Then they try to extract good memories so that person does not turn into a CS

[real lantern]

Im talking about the whole thing with the sky going dark not about laura getting corrupted

[azure bay]

that's what CS do

in The Lake

in Case 23

in Harvey's Box

in TWD

in TPW

[real lantern]

When do we see the world going dark when a CS appears in TPW?

[azure bay]

day 6

everything goes off

[real lantern]

The past within not the white door

[azure bay]

ah

sorry

when we revive Albert

I mean corrupt him

in The Past

[real lantern]

True, but in the mill we only see the sky go dark after we feed the cube to the lake

[azure bay]

"After" doesn't always mean "beacause of"

I think it was rather a trigger awakening the CS

or it was just a trigger to make the scripts go on

[real lantern]

Well, as i said before my theory isnt bulletproof by any stretch, but i still like it

[azure bay]

I can go further

we see not a single white cube in TWD

all black

all 11 of them

[real lantern]

Exactly, thats why i think that either bob is special in some way or like, depressed level 1500 or something, so his cubes dont turn white when he confronts his memories, he only gets worse

[azure bay]

I speak of all the patients

Leonie Poisson, Yuliana Kazantseva, Bart Leahwater

[real lantern]

They are in the basement right? Or no?

[azure bay]

they are

or rather were

[real lantern]

That could be because they already extracted all the memories they could, for lack of a better term "goodify"

[azure bay]

but these are clearly black cubes extracted

[azure bay]

also, Bob

he returns colors to his life

is it really 1500 lvl depression?

[astral frost]

It's everything about how we consider the Corrupted Souls born from living people (like Bob)

Do they have "ghost characteristics"? How do other people see them?

[delicate atlas]

Maybe because even his happy memories reminds him of Laura who passed away in a tragic way

So whenever he remembers her or anything about her he also immediately remembers her death and their breakup so he sees these memories as sad ones

He associates them all with her death

Like "I wish I never met you so these memories won't hurt" kind of thing

[azure bay]

CS aren't always invisible

Take Caroline, for example

Or Mr. Deer in Case 23

Or CS in The Lake

[bright parrot]

@azure bay
Listen bud remember the alteration of memory convo
You said memory can't be changed and I said that memory are dreams with consciousness

So here's the thing
You watch rick and morty s3ep1 and maybe it will and some of your questions about how real is a memory

[azure bay]

I say in Rusty Lake memories can be changed. Only these changes are limited by natural laws of the universe. You can't do things impossible outside the cubes.

Because outside and inside don't matter. They are indistinguishable

And everything outside RL is likely irrelevant for our theorizing. It can be useful for analogies or as source materials but more often than not it just doesn't correspond what we see in games

[floral mauve]

alright, simple question

I got confused by myself

Is there one or more grandfather clock

exclude samsara's room

[bright parrot]

Yes

One in roots

One in paradise

And many more

I believe they are one or atleast connected

Yeah

My memories are blur

But the question is

Are they same kr atleast connected

[floral mauve]

@azure bay so what do you think, I rechecked ur timeline map and they dont seem that contradict to each other, so 1 grandfather clock is possible

[azure bay]

The Mill and Seasons kinda do

[floral mauve]

I thought we had a discussion ages ago on many grandfather clocks

[floral mauve]

how so, so the way I explain is, Owl robbed and did some changed to Laura's house, including move the clock to Mill

I mean, he cut half of the house out of the original address

[azure bay]

that's still a leap you have to make

[floral mauve]

wdym, I have all proof in game for that

[azure bay]

we have the door disappearing, that's it

everything else is rationalization

[floral mauve]

we do know the rooms in seasons exist

the room

we have the cave memory cards

as evidence

[floral mauve]

or mill

I dont remember

but yea

so Owl did something and half of the house disappeared that includes the clock

and on the other hand, the clock appeared in the mill that looks like the exact one

is that not enough to say that they are the same one

the real contradiction will be, we clearly see both clocks exist at the same time

but then

we didnt

[azure bay]

we see the door disappear. We don't know what happens with the room and its interiors. That's where the leap comes from. Even if you think it's natural to assume, it's still a leap.

Why it's unnatural to me? We see them in close succession. You need to imply that they steal the clock from under Dale's nose just to teleport Laura there minutes later

from under the same nose

too risky to my liking

still possible

but with evidence we have it may or may not be the case

[floral mauve]

they did it intentionally to show Dale that it isnt a normal case

to intrigue him of Rusty Lake

so he investigates for months

[azure bay]

you are rationalizing again. The devs are not obliged to have thought the same way

[floral mauve]

plus I am here to prove whether there isnt 1 clock or no

[knotty lynx]

Go study

😵

[floral mauve]

the room disappear u can question it or criticize it but before u provide a stronger evidence, I am gonna say there is one

[azure bay]

I also have problems with Paradise-Roots transition. We see their insides, I don't recall Sam dealing with hearts

[floral mauve]

now there u go with a better point

I cant explain that either, perhaps Jakob dealt with it first before handling it over to the brothers

or Aldous did something to the clock after he stuffs the clock with the corpse

[azure bay]

let's see in the metro game

moving oversees with a grandfather clock seems impractical to me but if we see that it's at least confirmed to have belonged to Vanderbooms

[covert wyvern]

Heya @burnt shoal if this is related to the past within could I ask you to post this #945320126608179231

[burnt shoal]

okay 🙂

[terse crow]

so, if i understand it correctly, Mr owl and crow collect the white and black cubes to make the elixir to get immortal and assend to a higher plane of existence

[azure bay]

not exactly

primarily they collect them to feed the lake

in The Cave the cubes were specific

they belonged to Laura that used to be William

they contained elixir formula

his memory about it

Then I don't really think the elixir is for them

they are already at that higher plane

it's rather for Dale, Owl's successor who's foreshadowed to reach even higher

[terse crow]

but didnt mr owl need the elixir in ,,cave" to transform back to his owl form

[terse crow]

okay that i didnt knew

[terse crow]

could you explain that a bit more? I thought that Aldous has become mr crow and william died or became a corrupted soul

[azure bay]

that's right

but the main plot of Roots is about William's rebirth ritual

[terse crow]

ahhhhh okay ty

then why is he a gurl when reborn?

[covert wyvern]

Bc gender is fake

Dw about it

[azure bay]

that's natural. Samsara doesn't take genders into consideration

[terse crow]

I havent played the chargeable games sry

[azure bay]

you're missing a lot

[terse crow]

bruh im just a student okay😭

but definitely gonna get them when i can

[azure bay]

don't worry, so am I

[north hound]

also in stories and myths ive heard about rebirths, they dont always rebirth into the same gender

sometimes not even into the same species

[north hound]

OOF you shouldve gotten them on steam when tpw was released

they were all on discount

also is anybody else confused wether harvey is a good or bad character

I think harvey as a whole is confusing

[bright parrot]

Harvey is a servant

[north hound]

because first of all his bird version is female but his anthro version is male

[bright parrot]

Yup thats confusing

[north hound]

fr

[bright parrot]

That how he became a she

[north hound]

;-;

[bright parrot]

Maybe that's just some unnoticed mistake by devs

[bright parrot]

Or maybe

His hybrid is also female

Coz we don't can't say if hybrid was male with proof

But its bird form is female that's confirmed as she laid egg

[analog yacht]

tbf there were also very un-birdlike things in harvey's eggs so I doubt it's as easy as "harvey laid an egg therefore bird harvey is female"

I don't think the devs intended it to be anything more than "this is bird, birds have eggs, this freaky game doesn't care about gender"

"enjoy cubes and moths in your eggs"

[bright parrot]

Exactly

Except the enjoy moth part XD

[north hound]

its kinda sus

also

are we not gonna talk about how harvey legit murdered a family and fed them to eachother?????

like the hell????

[carmine elk]

Kinda funny kinda deserved

[north hound]

DAM

[analog yacht]

tbf he was just doing his job!

[north hound]

ig

[carmine elk]

gotta her that pay

GET

[north hound]

o-o

therapists fr gona blow when they hear about the eilander and vanderboom families

[bright parrot]

I believe the hotel incident signifies something as RL do have some symbolism

[wind axle]

I'm still wondering about why there was, ahem, "strawberry filling" in the cake
I assume it was to represent the darkest day in Dale's life

[floral mauve]

yummy strawberry is all that matters

[wind axle]

Strangely liquidy strawberry filling

[floral mauve]

yes

blame the refrigerator for that

[wind axle]

Kind of makes me wonder, who DOES put a needle in a birthday cake
As in who did?
Who put the needle in there?

[floral mauve]

fish

its the master plan of the flying fish god

[vague imp]

or shrimp 😄

[wind axle]

That cigar smoking mf-

[deft phoenix]

I don’t know if headcanon can be considered a theory, but it seems to me that in childhood, Rosa, instead of drawing some kind of houses or trees, drew pentograms and so on, and Albert hung these drawings on the refrigerator

[floral mauve]

ehm

did I overlook something

why I dont remember any of it

[delicate atlas]

There's a refrigerator???

With paintings???

Do you mean in the past within or in roots?

[analog yacht]

I think they meant that that's their personal headcanon, not that it actually happens

[hollow igloo]

Actually (very minor spoiler for The Past Within) ||there is a photo of Rose playing with a voodoo doll||, and she came in contact with a spirit at 9 yo, so I guess it’s a reasonable headcanon

[floral mauve]

yes

[deft phoenix]

• Is that your daughter playing on that playground?
• yes.
• please remove her, she is using our children as a vessel for demons!
  -pfft, she's just playing. don't let the kids have fun.

[deft phoenix]

Yes. I'm certainly not very into history, sorry. since I didn’t hang it on the refrigerator, I collected it in some kind of memorable album. A lot of parents do that, don't they? I mean they collect drawings of their children

[deft phoenix]

I looked when Rosa was born (1909, as the wiki says), almost 70 years after the refrigerator was created

[azure bay]

What refrigerator?

Why refrigerator?

Are you refrigerator?

[deft phoenix]

on which Albert hangs his daughter's drawings

[deft phoenix]

Yes

[azure bay]

So bad Vanderbooms never seemed to have electricity

[deft phoenix]

that is, they have a time machine, but the simplest generator does not exist for them?

[bright parrot]

Am I a refrigerator?

[floral mauve]

ehm, ||do you think Albert's first generation machine is powered by scientific electricity?||

[covert wyvern]

I think the refrigerator in this case is symbolic and non existent and probably not worth dwelling on

[azure bay]

What time machine r u refering to?

[floral mauve]

it seems to me that Albert's raw machine is more magical related

but anyway

[azure bay]

I'd say, it's mechanical

[floral mauve]

my wording isnt exact

[floral mauve]

yes

probably thats the right word

[bright parrot]

@floral mauve
I saw you discussing the word
"Vandermeer" In cabin

Nowherecaw told me and I have confirmed that
It means "from the lake"

[deft phoenix]

aa difficult ((sorry, I'm very confused. It is very difficult for me to communicate in English and quickly understand everything

[covert wyvern]

@bright parrot that wasn't up for debate

[analog yacht]

Vanderboom also means from the tree

[covert wyvern]

That too

[analog yacht]

And eilander means islander

[azure bay]

Cubes are memories

[covert wyvern]

But we were talking structure and origin, not translations here

[bright parrot]

Black cubes are bad memories

[analog yacht]

Shortcut dutch

[floral mauve]

yea, we had a nice dutch gramma convo

not very theory related

[covert wyvern]

Sammy would b proud

[floral mauve]

I was looking into some theory stuff

turns out that it may not be as closely related as I previously speculated

I think nowhere already knew about it at least partially, @azure bay
are you familiar with the name
Jacob Cornelisz van Oostsanen

So when I see Caroline, and we get Salome, from Salome, we get Jacob Cornelisz van Oostsanen. from him, we get Jacob and Amsterdam

from Amsterdam

we get Rusty Lake

https://tenor.com/view/coincidence-i-think-not-coincidence-i-think-not-the-incredibles-gif-5096707

but maybe it is just another van Gogh type reference

[bright parrot]

Is this all in TPW

[analog yacht]

Mans bringing out the red string

[floral mauve]

its just a mini tiny detail out of the void

which I am almost certain that someone must have brought it up before

[terse crow]

i think that if the games are arranged chronologically in Cube Escape Collection, Dale's 9th Birthday didnt happen exactly like shown in Cube Escape Birthday, for example blood in the cake or the needle and the whole time machine thing. His parents did die at that day, but most likely not at the hands of Mr Rabbit. And maybe his Grandpa looked completely different, and Mr Crow/Aldous is just there to watch Dale's actions. After all Dale did say that the lake is messing with his memories and changing themthem

[azure bay]

they can't be arranged chronologically for a simple reason of overlapping

also Seasons seems be the latest game (besides TPW) in the timeline by the same logic you apply to birthday

and The Cave takes place before Birthday/Theatre

[ebon aspen]

Isnt the collection order simply the release order?

[azure bay]

we're speaking of chronology

also fan fact. accidentally The Lake was released several days earlier

[floral mauve]

yes

we had a somewhat discussion of it which I dont remember exactly what was it about

[bright parrot]

And samsara room was the first game

Or maybe I am wrong

[azure bay]

og samsara room

[bright parrot]

Yup

[azure bay]

but it's not canon

[bright parrot]

They made it canon

[azure bay]

in 2020

[bright parrot]

Yeah

[azure bay]

remake was different enough to consider it a different game

[bright parrot]

Fine

[azure bay]

also the message changed

seemingly

[bright parrot]

Coming back to theories

I believe the plaques arent real

As you said

That RL games use symbolism

I believe that what plaque mean is a result of doing something bad.
Here it may mean Caroline's death

[azure bay]

if you call something unreal you are obliged to tell what happened instead

[bright parrot]

Its not unreal

Maybe its exaggerated

Just like history itself

If we consider "paradise" a past

[azure bay]

still

what happened?

[bright parrot]

I am thinking

Idk

Maybe it all happened

But less

Or maybe each of the plaque tells something

But I don't know much about biblical plaques

Because things in bible itself signify something

"I Don't know proper English and apologise in advance for any offence"

[azure bay]

It seems you are overthinking it

normally message is expected to be clear

[bright parrot]

That's where you may be wrong

Everything seems to be normal till you don't know about it

I may be wrong about the whole plaques thing

But the things we don't understand in RL are maybe symbols rather than being true

Like blood instead of cream in cake

Or tree out of fish

[azure bay]

plagues are way too central to be questioned

[bright parrot]

As I said
I may be wrong

[terse crow]

i think if something isn't real or didn't happen like shown they always tell us in some form, so dont worry about what's real or not, we'll figure that out somehow

btw i found this great theory on reddit abiut mr owl

https://www.reddit.com/r/rustylake/comments/flo9jr/theory_regarding_mr_owls_motivation/

[azure bay]

since recently I tend to think that everything happened somewhere

even if it didn't originally

[azure bay]

can you summarize it for us?

[foggy phoenix]

y'all i just finished paradox ch2 (which was incredible i have no words) and im so confused and intrigued by the ending, did Mr. Owl "retire" (aka turned into a fish aka the fish is his future? im also confused by that part) and did he give the entire responsibility and access to rusty lake to dale? like did jacob also accept his corrupted soul in order to become Mr. Owl? was dale's corruption responsible for laura's death or was it laura's own corruption that led to her death? is dale the main figure in charge of rusty lake?

[azure bay]

Owl didn't retire yet

Dale didn't finish his journey

besides, I'm sure that in Paradox it was only starting

continued in Birthday/Theatre

Jacob was made into Owl by Caroline. He shares a ton of parallels with Dale but still he wasn't aiming as high

Dale is to become a god

Owl is considered a demi-god

@foggy phoenix

[foggy phoenix]

oh my god

[foggy phoenix]

wait okay wait i thought paradox was set after cave?

[azure bay]

you need to get the secret ending of ch2

it made me think otherwise

[foggy phoenix]

OOOOOO you have intrigued me i'll def try to find it out tomorrow

[foggy phoenix]

also question was dale aiming . at all? he was just set in laura's path; does that mean that him accepting his corrupted soul is to make him all powerful etc?

[azure bay]

I have no idea how it all works

we can only guess

my guess, it's his Birthday/Theatre adventures that matter

[foggy phoenix]

also i really really really want some sort of explanation from owl as in why he chose dale at all. as you said their parallels are undeniable but i want some sort of background lore (besides paradise and cave) as in why he chose dale so bad

[foggy phoenix]

birthday is my favorite cube escape game so<3 dale my corrupted beloved

[azure bay]

My guess, Dale is resourceful and has a great potential for change

also Owl saw him in the prophecy

[foggy phoenix]

very true, so does that mean owl knows his potential and wants him changed based on his own expectations? or does dale now know that him accepting his corrupted part will lead to higher parts of consciousness therefore power etc?

[foggy phoenix]

...what prophecy?

[azure bay]

the future memories from Hotel

[foggy phoenix]

wait what. there were no future memories in RL hotel?

is that a hidden achievement from paradox?

[azure bay]

"the memories aren't only the key to the past but also to the future. Have a look"
*shows a memory about yet unborn Dale reaching the hotel*

[foggy phoenix]

WHAT

are we talking about paradox T_T

[azure bay]

RL Hotel ending

[foggy phoenix]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

oh my god my bad nvm

[azure bay]

I have no idea how to answer that

[foggy phoenix]

LMAO its okay thanks for answering anyway:)

[azure bay]

I only know that Owl needs a successor, that he found him, tested him and put into several situations that were meant to change him

my guess, make him suitable for ascension

more suitable than Owl was himself in his past life

@foggy phoenix

[bright parrot]

Nowherecaw

I strongly believe that

The trio theory is correct

There was a trio in every generation

William Aldous _______.
Aldous' son (forgot the name). Must have other 2.
Albert'trio

Rose's trio

Laura bob dale

We've covered every generation seen

Jakob also had her brother and sister

The pattern we see is 2Male 1Female

It can't be a coincidence

[ebon aspen]

What are the implications of it?

Besides themeing and giving more reasons to belive aldous and william's speculated sister will appear some time soon and be important?

[bright parrot]

There are loopholes that can be fixed by new characters

And again

I don't find trios being a coincidence

[bright parrot]

@wind axle
This may answer your question

Ping me for further explanation

[wind axle]

interestingz

[bright parrot]

One more point

Every character seen till now

Is related to lake

Or more like families that belong to laks

The eilanders

And the vanderbooms

And only two outsiders have been seen till now

Bob

Dale

[slow ridge]

Dale is related to the lake too. HIs last name is Vandermeer, which means from the lake

We may say bob is the true outsider of this story, maybe he is a normal resident who just hook up with Laura, the centre character of the RL verse.

[bright parrot]

The question is
How is he related to lake

[bright parrot]

Bob is an outsider until they develop his character to be related to lake

Maybe Bob is someone we don't know. Maybe Laura made bob fall for her. It was all planned
Coz we don't know till know that Laura was normal or she knew that she was William and working with crow or owl

[azure bay]

If you consider Laura, Dale and Bob a trio, why on Earth do you think the 3rd person had to be related to the alchemist brothers?

[bright parrot]

Coz I am trying to relate Bob and dale to Vanderbooms

Its a long shot

And you may say I am building an Indian daily soap

[azure bay]

It's a veeeeeeeeeery long shot

[bright parrot]

But

If the family was not that important

Then there was almost no need of Roots or Paradise

They would have made a small game

Just to explain the important part

And not whole family tree

[azure bay]

Dude, stop trying to get in the dev's head. It just never works

[bright parrot]

I am just proposing my opinions

I focus on development of plot

By relating things to laura

Or dale

[azure bay]

Believe me, it will lead you nowhere. You can mark whatever you want as the dev's intentions but mathematically you are very likely to be wrong

Families are relevant for Roots and Paradise because they are made to be relevant

In Roots you need 10 family sacrifices

In Paradise you have a firstborn that was made a cult successor by his loving mother

Dale doesn't need all that to become relevant or become Owl's successor

All he needs is Owl and the prophecy he's seen

[bright parrot]

How are you sure that he is not related

[azure bay]

I'm not sure he's not. I'm sure he doesn't have to be

[bright parrot]

How are you sure that he doesn't have to be related

[azure bay]

I just told you

[bright parrot]

Have you watched AOT (I may use some references)

Y/N

Coz it may contain spoilers
Major AOT SPOILERS BELOW

||Like in AOT things didn't made sense in the beginning and it all came together joining dot by dot in the end. I am sure this is what happening here. Like 100% sure||

[analog yacht]

That's just basic story writing

It's a hallmark of mystery series in particular

[bright parrot]

That's what is happening here.
Devs tell us what is suffice for now. And then then they will pull a long shot.

We think
Yeah we know everything

[analog yacht]

Idk man the memes would disagree with you there :V none of us know anything and we're aware of that

[bright parrot]

||Same was in AOT||
(Aot spoiler)

[azure bay]

The story works just as well if Dale is just a random person Owl saw becoming his successor in the future. The story works just as well if Bob is just a random person who saw Laura in a park and decided to talk to her.

That's what I mean by 'doesn't have to'.

Jacob became what he is because he was related to Eilanders. He wouldn't otherwise.

Laura arguably is involved because of being William in the past life who needed to exploit his family. Otherwise she wouldn't exist.

But not Dale. Not Bob. They can be strangers and the story would still happen.

[bright parrot]

There is slight chance of dale being eilander

[analog yacht]

There was no eilander left to succeed the line

[bright parrot]

Which may also fulfill the theory of being owl is family related

[azure bay]

There is a huge chance of him being Vanderboom

[bright parrot]

Yes it is

Here is why I think he is eilander

Her mother is a redhead

[analog yacht]

Dale is related to the lake by fate, just like the others. How fate presented itself is just different

[bright parrot]

Everyone is related to lake by fate

But there is something related to families

Coz they are giving a lot of impact on last names

[bright parrot]

We saw in TPW that eilanders were alive

[azure bay]

What?

[analog yacht]

William wasn't initially there because of family though, was he? He was drawn there by research in the elixer, died trying, and then his ghost harassed his family into sacrificing themselves and allowing himself to be reborn as laura

[bright parrot]

But it was is Bob's dreams

[analog yacht]

There were??? No Eilanders in TPW?

[azure bay]

There is a cool theory

[bright parrot]

We saw Jakobs uncle

As a driver

[azure bay]

No, it wasn't him

[analog yacht]

Do you mean TWD? I'm confused

[azure bay]

He had strong Russian accent

[azure bay]

He does

[analog yacht]

Okay that makes more sense. I was wondering if I missed a whole section of TPW

[azure bay]

And nope. Just literal names implying something.

"They live on island"
"She was born from the tree" (just her, not her family)
"He is somehow connected to the lake" with no indications of when he is. In the past or in the future

[azure bay]

I told you why it's not him

[analog yacht]

Looks more like Paul /j

Anyway aren't the eilanders asuras around then anyway? Even if the guy didn't have a Russian accent

[azure bay]

They are corrupted souls around then

[analog yacht]

Oh riiight I'm thinking earlier ty

[bright parrot]

So the birth of laura idk was fate

[azure bay]

By that logic, Dale's fate it to become the ruler

[bright parrot]

Yup

So last names are based on fate

[analog yacht]

Anyway I need to go prepare for a big scary call, y'all have fun now. And good luck XD

[bright parrot]

And don't relate to family of the person

[azure bay]

No, the one of Eilanders isn't

[bright parrot]

But that also portrays Jakob

He lives in hotel

[azure bay]

A stretch, 7 family members living on the island seem to be a better reason for the name

I'm sure they are just literal names

They may come from "the present" of the characters

They may come from their "future"

And it usually becomes clear eventually

[real lantern]

I honestly think it might just be because random names would be kinda boring, it looks cool to have their names relate to the story, it would be as cool to follow the story of Dale Jansen

[azure bay]

Wouldn't say it would be boring

But I admit it's more interesting when there is a hidden meaning behind

@bright parrot speaking of Bob

He has NO WAY to be related to them

Even belonging to the trio is a stretch

Also

Can you please give an exact definition of the trio?

As well as the reason to exist as a phenomenon

[bright parrot]

A trio as in a set of 3 people which are prominent and most appeared characters of a generation

In RL The trios we have seen are Albert's trio.
Rose's trio.
We know a bit about these 2
Interesting thing is there is 1 female and 2 male in each set and they are siblings.
Latest generation trio is bob laura dale which also follows the gender order. And may be related to each other just the other two trios

[azure bay]

How do you measure appearance time?

@bright parrot

[bright parrot]

I count generations

Laura and dale belong to same generation

[azure bay]

why a trio is a thing?

[bright parrot]

Coz it just stood out

Tell any other prominent characters from Laura's generation

Other then dale bob laura

[azure bay]

Sarah

[analog yacht]

I don't fault him. Three is a significant number in occultism. Whether it actually has any connection is a different deal entirely

[bright parrot]

We don't know if sarah is canon.
And her ending is also said to be not true.

Putting these things aside
Still sarah is not important than these 3

[azure bay]

and Bob is not as important as Dale and Laura

[bright parrot]

Exactly Idk why
But people mostly have a group of 3

[bright parrot]

Same for emma

[analog yacht]

group is a good base number for storytelling anyway. Mainly because it's a good amount of "main characters" to have before things get cluttered

so it could be either

[azure bay]

actually yeah, Ida suits better for the role

[bright parrot]

But we saw more of emma than ida.
We saw her birth her childhood everything

[analog yacht]

Actually you just reminded me of a fun fact, if you give newborn babies water they will die! Just a curious little detail

[azure bay]

the devs don't deny a possibility of Ida's game in the future

[bright parrot]

That's about future

And Ida will not be with other two characters

The trio thing is

They are like a team

I know

We've not seen this for bob dale laura

But you can't deny they will come together

[azure bay]

will?

at what point?

[bright parrot]

Idk

But they will

Coz bob serves a purpose

Otherwise devs would have left him

[azure bay]

I can name you several potential purposes right away without connecting him to Dale and Laura

[bright parrot]

Say

There is one more thing
I think about bob
But you tell first then I will say

[azure bay]

1. They may've wanted to make a personal spin-off story of a backfround character
2. They confirmed they wanted to tell a story inspired by their friend who attended a mental institute.

3. They wanted to launch a publisher

Second Maze

If Bob were as important as you want him to be, we'd see him in The Cave

[bright parrot]

Now here is what I think of bob

We don't know if Laura knows that she is william

But laura Trapped bob

To fall for her

Consciously or unconsciously

And don't know for who

[azure bay]

what do you mean?

[bright parrot]

Wasn't second maze launched by mitoza and milo and the magpies

[azure bay]

by The White Door

it's the 1st title of the publisher

[bright parrot]

We don't know why they need bob

But they need bob, he wasn't chosen at random

He was made feel that he fell for laura

[azure bay]

Owl needs Bob because of Laura. Laura doesn't work for Owl. If William did, it was long ago and he has no way knowing Owl's current plans. This conspiracy doesn't hold water

Owl's major plan is depicted in The Cave book

[bright parrot]

So bob is a random guy

[azure bay]

very likely so

because the major plan is to make elixir from Laura's memories and use it for Dale's enlightenment

[bright parrot]

Then all my hopes reside on upcoming train game

[azure bay]

back to the alchemist brothers

you can't make them fit the pattern

[bright parrot]

The trio pattern

[azure bay]

even if they had the 3rd sibling that became James' parent, it has to be a brother

because James is Vanderboom

that means that his father is Vanderboom

[bright parrot]

Pregnancy and birth is a bit messed up

Emma gave birth with a flower

[real lantern]

What about the dog?👀

[bright parrot]

Frank vanderboom

[bright parrot]

🤮
I just thought something I wasn't expecting

[azure bay]

it's rather an exception than the rule. Until told otherwise (and I still doubt we'll get a game about the brothers), I assume everything to be normal

[bright parrot]

Don't know can't say

But one thing for sure woman in RL gave births is unique way.
Take rose and emma for ex

[analog yacht]

We don't know how rose gave birth, if she did at all

[bright parrot]

Thats clock for you

[azure bay]

we're sure she did

[analog yacht]

Are we? I may be missing something then

[azure bay]

me and Mario that is

[analog yacht]

Oh XD

It'd make sense, but it's not like it was shown or anything

[azure bay]

she was locked in a clock and time was passing

[bright parrot]

Still we don't know what happenes in clock

[analog yacht]

I figured, but that doesn't necessarily mean she was pregnant with Laura. Cause the clock is... weird

[bright parrot]

Did it just fast-forward time

Or smth else

[analog yacht]

I can see why you think so, but I also think it's not necessarily the only explanation. Even if it's the most likely

[azure bay]

The family tree implies Laura having Vanderboom genes. But not in a way she's a Frankenstein monster. Because in that case she'd have Frank's brown hair`

the only way to get Vdb genes left is the direct one

[analog yacht]

Yes, but I'm also thinking of Rose herself who wasn't birthed from a woman at all. Might be lake baby that Rose could've picked up

[azure bay]

technically Rose was. Ida is her biological mother

[analog yacht]

yeah, but I mean physically so

test tube baby

[azure bay]

that doesn't apply to Laura though

there was no test tube

[analog yacht]

Yeah, and that's why I say Rose's pregnancy is most likely, even though we don't really get to see what happens

[azure bay]

for me as a rationalist wannabe this is good enough until we get another plausible possibility

back to the bros again

[bright parrot]

We have never seen a person leaving The lake
Only seen them coming back.
And we've never seen a woman leave or come back in Lake

That's unrelated to what you're discussing

But that was old topic

[azure bay]

@bright parrot this way of inception is arguably possible for a supposed William's sister. But the natural one stays more plausible with the evidence given. I tell ya, that's an exception. Ignoring billions of normal people, we have 2 anomaly characters against 9 who are confirmed to have a biological father.

and many more that are more likely to have one

[floral mauve]

Also I wonder how Laura got that hair, super blond

theoretically

According to the past vanderboom and in real world reference

most ppl with blond hair will soon become brown as they grow older like 20s

at least among my friends

their hair were blond when they were 12 and they are 20 now with a sort of greyish yellow

since Rose has red hair, how do u get blond

sussy tree genes got mixed in

[wind axle]

what colour hair does albert have, just wondering

[floral mauve]

brown?

thats why I am curious to see Laura is neither brown nor red

or a possibility

perhaps the devs thought a blond woman died in her home mysteriously and detective element are a good combo

[covert wyvern]

I suppose in that case one must wonder what being a frankenstein family sacrifice baby does for your genetics lmao

[covert wyvern]

well cant forget Laura Palmer I guess

[floral mauve]

yes probably thats the reason

sad I didnt have time to watch twin peaks

yet

[carmine elk]

I always thought maybe William had blonde hair I never realized how odd her hair is until now..

[wind axle]

idk what hair colour albert has lmao

[bright parrot]

He had brown hair

Only emma had blonde hair

As far as I remember

And IDK why

Laura sometimes resembles emma

Or maybe Laura is Frank's daughter

That's why she is blonde

[wind axle]

ahh alrighty, i can never draw him with the right colour hair for noTHING

[pearl seal]

Go with white

He's old anyway

[azure bay]

Emma on her own is a sign that Vanderboom lineage has hidden blond genes

Any Vanderboom can have them

Laura doesn't have to be Emma's granddaughter to have them

[bright parrot]

But blonde is a recessive gene

And if parents don't have it

You for sure won't be blonde

[azure bay]

If A parent

[bright parrot]

Here I can say that
Genetics may not be a major part of RL

[azure bay]

Emma confirms that both her parents had such gene. So can any of their children

[bright parrot]

I don't know much about genetics

But if parents aren't blonde

That means

They have little to no blonde genes

[azure bay]

A simple probability problem:

[bright parrot]

With very less probability of a child being a blonde

Its less but never zero

[azure bay]

It's next to 25%

In case both parents have a gene

[bright parrot]

Lets skip the maths

And see what will it mean

One more thing

All of the eilanders are redhead

So caroline maybe is not a vanderboom

Maybe she was an eilander from the beginning (like rose and frank)

[azure bay]

My point is, if Emma could inherit all her blond genes from her parents, Laura could inherit them from her great grand parents through any of their children

[azure bay]

What do you mean?

[bright parrot]

Interbred
But maybe not direct sibling

[azure bay]

I'd observe a different shade of red than Gerard has

And he's the only older generation person whose hair color we know

[delicate atlas]

I think it's just a character design thing

And Europe having redheads in it prominently

So the devs decided to make redheaded characters

And some blondes too because same point

I think some artists don't really think about genetics of a family tree when designing a character

[azure bay]

apparently Maarten does to some extent

strategically reusing facial features to indicate blood relations

a good example are Vandermeer father and son

[delicate atlas]

Oh I see

[bright parrot]

And Dale's grandpa

[delicate atlas]

Never knew that

[bright parrot]

Or mr Crow does not look like both of them

That points that Crow was never there

[ebon aspen]

As much parents and children can really look similar, they can also be nothing alike
So tbh using facial features to assure someone's genealogy wont do much

[azure bay]

don't tell that because people can debate this. and they did

and they do

[bright parrot]

Actually we debated on this

Multiple times

[floral mauve]

I do agree, Roots wasnt a thing when The woman designed

She didnt even have a name back then

[azure bay]

but they could design her family retroactively. And they actually did

by the way

TPW and the memory laws it implies make me think that faking grandpa in Birthday would be difficult

[floral mauve]

thats why after comparing evidence

Crow might actually be the grandpa

[bright parrot]

I've not played TPW but I believe adding grandpa 2as important and that's why they did

[floral mauve]

Grandpa didnt appear in Paradox could be explained as Bob didnt appear in theatre as well

[azure bay]

I hate this but if that's true, that's true

[floral mauve]

so recap is not necessary to include every character

[floral mauve]

he got a stronger evidence by carrying the pistol from hotel to vandermeer home

[azure bay]

however grandpa still have problems

[floral mauve]

he has the bullet issue

other than that

I see none

[bright parrot]

We only saw theatre in the puzzle game
Not after putting the brain.
So they might have shown us one wall of theatre where bob was not present

[floral mauve]

human head shield

[azure bay]

Aldous was always bold as an egg while grandpa has hair behind his ears

also Dale not recognizing him in Case 23 is sus

[floral mauve]

emmmm. idk its been some decades since

[azure bay]

always

[floral mauve]

this yea

[floral mauve]

in roots painting?

yea

then it could be fake hair

disguised grandpa

it can explain why Dale didnt recognise him

[azure bay]

also glasses, the best superman disguise

[bright parrot]

@azure bay
What are your evidence for crow being the Grandpa coz in the last convo that we had on this topic all you had was counter objectives.

[floral mauve]

yes

[azure bay]

I have evidence for and against both view points

[bright parrot]

Tell

[azure bay]

not really feeling like that rn

[bright parrot]

I would like to hear for why grandpa was there

[bright parrot]

Whenever just tell that

[stone bramble]

I really like the theory that there was no grandpa and it was mr crow because in paradox he’s never shown in the puzzles that shows the events of birthday

also that grandpa is the one who knows that mr rabbit is coming when the parents didn’t

[azure bay]

I'm sure it was Dale telling everyone after rolling time back and grandpa was the only adult cool enough to take him seriously

[delicate atlas]

Oh

Still doesn't explain the resemblness of Mr. Crow but interesting

[azure bay]

Either he is or he pretends to be for the memory sake or it's just an asset reuse

[delicate atlas]

Yeah I was thinking it's just a design thing

And not that deep

But knowing rusty lake everything is actually that deep

So it gets confusing

[azure bay]

what do you mean by "everything"?

[delicate atlas]

I mean they never put something in a game for no reason

Most stuff have meaning, symbolism, references to pop culture, and game play stuff

[azure bay]

resource shortage is a good reason to reuse something

[delicate atlas]

That's true

[azure bay]

they do it with outfits left and right

at least used to do

[delicate atlas]

Also Mr. Crow's design is never consistent

It changed a lot

Human form I mean

[azure bay]

pretty much consistent besides certain elements

[delicate atlas]

If I didn't know already, I would've thought the Roots one and the Case 23 one were 2 different people

I guess it's a me thing then

[azure bay]

he's got older

but the eyes, the nose, the ears and even some wrinkles stay

in Theatre he looks a lot like himself in Roots

in The Cave he looks a lot like himself in Case 23

[delicate atlas]

Yeah but to me it's just a design change

Off memory though

Let me take a look at the pictures real quick

[azure bay]

it's consistent even cross-games

in The Cave we see him old

but also a photo of him before ascension

and in TWD he stays consistent to his Theatre appearance

(only a but redesigned just like the entire game)

[delicate atlas]

I see

I just forgot what he looks like

[floral mauve]

magical colour change of eyebrow

secret make up of Aldous

💅

[azure bay]

magical color change of eyes seems more mysterious to me

[floral mauve]

nah

the first two images because the recess skull eye holes

a way of expressing it

not sure of the 2nd one

because it could be a mask

but who knows

I have an uncomfortable thought

how do they transform

do they feel wings growing and feathers and shit like that

[delicate atlas]

OUCH

[floral mauve]

yes, I am evil

[hidden bridge]

Hey, IDK if this has an in cannon explanation, but are the vandermeers and the vanderbooms related

[floral mauve]

thats what we are trying to discuss above

the grandpa part

[delicate atlas]

It'd be cool if it was true ngl

Can make the names make sense

And can explain why dale is chosen for all of this

(Being related to laura)

Also can explain the parent of james

[floral mauve]

thats getting more and more fate oriented

[delicate atlas]

I guess

[floral mauve]

I dont see this

u mean James is son of Aldous?

[delicate atlas]

Well, if mr. Crow is dale's grandpa then one of his parents is a vanderboom?

His mom maybe?

[floral mauve]

so James and Dale's father (I assume) are related?

[delicate atlas]

I honestly don't know

I can't make it make sense

[floral mauve]

u can

[delicate atlas]

Something clicked in my head but I lost it

[floral mauve]

just need to stuff some details

this is an interesting angle to cut in

My brain cant think RL much atm

[delicate atlas]

Me neither 💀

I'm bad with family trees

But if the dad is vandermeer

Mr. Crow isn't his dad

And the mom is probably Mr. Crow's daughter in that case

And if she existed before she'd probably be Rose's age

And the 3 cousins' age in general

[floral mauve]

or it could be fake name

[delicate atlas]

So her parent would be as old as James' kids

[hidden bridge]

when playing through roots I almost thought these 2 looked the same, so that may be something

[floral mauve]

relatable feelings

[delicate atlas]

And James would have a cousin who's her dad's dad

Like her grandpa

[floral mauve]

I cant process time and age stuff atm

[delicate atlas]

No wait nvm

That makes no sense

Yeah that's fair

Take a break

[floral mauve]

I mean

we dont know if Aldous is *** active

[delicate atlas]

We can discuss this later

But

I just had a dumb thought

[floral mauve]

he could be for all the century

[delicate atlas]

Dale's mom kinda looks like a younger version of Mr. Crow's wife

[delicate atlas]

💀

[floral mauve]

so that solves the age problem easily

[delicate atlas]

LMAO

Good point though

[floral mauve]

sexy bartender is quite charming

[hidden bridge]

I now understand they don't really look alike, but I thought it was a change in art style, like jojo

[delicate atlas]

Fair

[delicate atlas]

Yeah the games did go through an art style change and redesign

Form paradox onward

[hidden bridge]

Yeah, although there are still issues like specifics when considering if they are the same, like Leo having a leg missing

[floral mauve]

alright so I checked the timeline map

thanks to nowhere

@delicate atlas Dale's parents technically should be similar age as Rose

or slightly older

but should be much

between 30-35

they died in 1939

Rose was born in 1909

so yea

Leo was born around 1890 I think

not sure

actually I am sure

just not sure the specific time

[hidden bridge]

I did the math, he would be 49 in birthday

[delicate atlas]

So you're saying Leo and Mr. Vandermeer aren't the same person

That's understandable

The Vandermeers being as old as rose is what makes Dale as old as Laura and makes me think they might be related

Or

They were neighbors at least

[floral mauve]

Dale is 5-6 years older than Laura

[delicate atlas]

Some people pointed out the tree where Mr. Rabbit dies is similar to the one in seasons

[floral mauve]

I had this thought first😤

me anggie

[delicate atlas]

Oops, math moment

[covert wyvern]

Gross

[delicate atlas]

Yeah I remember seeing it here but forgor who said it 💀

[hidden bridge]

And doing some research, the leg issue is explainable.
20 years can do wonders for technology, like prothstetics(or however it's spelled)

[floral mauve]

I mean u could also say that u never saw dad standing up

[floral mauve]

he got long pants

[hidden bridge]

We do though

[floral mauve]

right leg is facing us which makes it unclear whether its a stick

[floral mauve]

oh yea

forgot

[floral mauve]

or no

but I think its not possible after all

Leo doest look like him that much after all

I would rather compare him with Samuel

or directly another evidence of Aldous being dad💀

This could also explain why Crow didnt show up much in physical form later on

[hidden bridge]

But with Sam, he has a confirmed death

[floral mauve]

I never said its Sam, he looks like Sam

[hidden bridge]

Oh

[floral mauve]

I still dont think its any of the vanderbooms

more likely an offspring of Aldous

[floral mauve]

busy breeding and building another family

spy

[hidden bridge]

I'm a bit hesitant to agree with you, because I can't think of aldous caring about something or someone other than the lake and Mr. Owl

[stone bramble]

I like the theory that dale and laura are cousins it makes sense on why they’re connected

[floral mauve]

it is about the lake

Vandermeer

[hidden bridge]

I still have a feeling that mr. vandermeer is frank. I'm not saying your theory is wrong, I'm just using the info I picked up on

[floral mauve]

that just proves my point that he looks like the vanderbooms

so lets dive into the source

most possibly Aldous

[floral mauve]

unless u believe in third brother theory or something

[hidden bridge]

I just thought of something

It could be a stretch, but he could be another one of Albert's creations, like rose

[covert wyvern]

I suppose its not unlikely for albert to create more children, but youd reckon theyd show it in game right haha

[floral mauve]

I am just saying the evidence we have there is grandpa

and we assume Dale's dad's dad is the grandpa

we basically crossed over 3 or more assumptions together

to interprove each other

[hidden bridge]

To be fair, I hope rl won't do another "the brood"

[floral mauve]

its not strong but not that far fetched neither

[delicate atlas]

But the family name contradicts it

Unless it's a fake name as you said

[floral mauve]

I mean Vandermeer name can probably speculate something

depends on how u want it

[azure bay]

After all the metro game will cover a longer time span

including Laura being with Bob

expecting her trip to the lake isn't crazy

[covert wyvern]

looks like it!

[azure bay]

however I'm worried we won't see anything beyond metro stations

no hotel?

no Owl's plans?

no answer why the hell he took Laura in?

[delicate atlas]

Wait what

What did I mess again

It's too chaotic in #📼｜tpw-bkm-arg for me to pay attention

[azure bay]

a ton

[delicate atlas]

Is there something revealed about the metro game?

[azure bay]

approximate release date

[delicate atlas]

Oh nice

[covert wyvern]

And a teaser trailer:)

[ivory girder]

so what do we think about best kept memory thingy it's probably a different thingy than the white door?

[ebon aspen]

Yet another memory research facility

Thats what i call business

[covert wyvern]

Could b rebranding.

[deft phoenix]

can we assume that Laura is a child of incest?

like... she's part of the Wonderboom family... well....

ok, forget it

[azure bay]

If I remember that correctly that was debunked by the devs in August 2021

[deft phoenix]

ah.. ок

[delicate atlas]

I think BMK is a commercial branch of the white door

The white door is like a hospital

Or a mental health facility

While best kept memory is a business

That relies on twd research

[hollow igloo]

I don’t think it’s rebranding, this seems more business-oriented than anything

Maybe a secondary branch

[delicate atlas]

Remember what they were doing to bob while he slept?

That's basically it in bmk

[azure bay]

I think Albert could be behind BMK

[delicate atlas]

But you pay them to do it to you

Oooh

Interesting

[hollow igloo]

I think this too

If they are behind the recordings, they have something to do with Albert and Rose.

[real lantern]

i think its more likely that rose either works at or owns BMK

[azure bay]

Rose canonically left the reality

Albert arguably did so

[delicate atlas]

OH

[azure bay]

maybe they returned more powerful than before

like HARVEY

but that's just a theory

[bright parrot]

Whats BMK

[real lantern]

best kept memory

[hollow igloo]

|| Given that in the lake time doesn’t exist, does it make sense to say WHEN Rose reached the lake at the end of TPW?||

[azure bay]

||it does because the place she left has time||

[delicate atlas]

Wait move this to #945320126608179231

[azure bay]

@covert wyvern is it a month to wait before you can share without spoiler tags?

[covert wyvern]

It's until the next release:)

[azure bay]

o

k

:c

[hollow igloo]

So ||until next spring ||

[azure bay]

(would be awful to follow this rule during 2.5 years of TPW development)

[bold cradle]

I guess about BestKeptMemory's owner is Rose.

[azure bay]

Except she would be 90yo and also that would contradict TPW ending

(probably)

[bold cradle]

Whatever she is not human. she can be live much longer than normal human.

[azure bay]

she is human

why isn't she?

[bold cradle]

she is homunculus

made by albert

[azure bay]

she was created using human genetic materials

there was nothing that would imply any augmentations

[bold cradle]

but she does know about the way avoiding the death

[azure bay]

do you have evidence?

[bold cradle]

she can voodoo magic too

[azure bay]

can she?

also

Owl knows how to prolong his life. Yet he struggles doing so despite all his infinite resources

[bold cradle]

yes. in the roots, she did ouija board. and she talked with ghost.

[azure bay]

it's not voodoo

it's spiritism

spiritism doesn't mean knowing alchemy

which is the only way to prolong life so far

neither voodoo is

[bold cradle]

yea. whatever, she does keeps albert's talking.

she already met on albert's corrupted soul already in the past.

[azure bay]

still don't understand how that makes her live longer

[bold cradle]

but albert does know what will happen the future

If albert says to rose,

she can avoid or prepare about what happen later

[azure bay]

says what?

[bold cradle]

I mean, Albert can voodoo magic, and he can foresee the future other person

Albert can tell about the future to rose too

[azure bay]

we don't know how Albert knew all that. He could be told by Ida (fortune telling was her thing) he could be told by Rose from the future. But either way how on earth would that defeat aging?

[bold cradle]

so vanderboom brothers try to make a elixir.

for eternal life.

[azure bay]

and even Owl doesn't have it anymore

he slowly perishes having to drink elixir extracted from dog's turd

[bold cradle]

yes. it is.

[azure bay]

which is depleting

if elixir didn't leave a body via defecation Owl wouldn't have to extract elixir in the 1st place

if this option isn't available to Owl why would it be otherwise for Albert?

[bold cradle]

I think they try to find another way without elixir.

it is reincarnation

[azure bay]

that doesn't mean they succeed

also

in TPW ending ||Rose left the reality both in the past and the future. || Her story has come to an end

[bold cradle]

it means she is not old anymore

[azure bay]

it means she is not available anymore

she is physically unable to manage BKM

[bold cradle]

it make sence

then who is owner of bestkeptmemory?

dale?

[azure bay]

could be Owl could be Dale could be Albert

[bold cradle]

but voice is dale

[azure bay]

what voice?

[bold cradle]

in sonia alverez.mp4

[azure bay]

can you send the time code?

[bold cradle]

all of man's voice is dale's voice that I think.

[azure bay]

the interviewing doctor is definitely not David Bowles

who played Dale in Paradox and voiced him since

[bold cradle]

hmmm

[covert wyvern]

The doctor is the man from the tpw cabin trailer right?