🤔｜theories

[floral mauve]

Lake usually portraits warm mother figures

[twin roost]

whats a crate?😭

[floral mauve]

Box

[twin roost]

oh

[floral mauve]

Case

Chest

Casket

[twin roost]

edit not mine

BUT

is it possible that Rose wears the same gloves as Ida?

Maybe that she found them and whom they belonged to and thats a way she connects to her?

[formal owl]

I think it's possible

[floral mauve]

Possible

[azure bay]

Relevant?

[floral mauve]

wha?

[azure bay]

Idk how to put it...

Ok, nevermind. Carry on

[floral mauve]

🤨

[worn fable]

I've seen people theorize that the Eilander family were "reborn" into the guests at the Hotel. I was wondering if there was anything more behind this theory that anyone has noticed past the animals being the same? And some surface level connections between Gerard and Mr Boar + Elizabeth and Ms Pheasant

Or is this just a niche idea that I somehow managed to find. I'd only just finished bingeplaying the games a few days ago and am even newer to the community

[floral mauve]

It’s not niche at all

It is pretty much confirmed by paradox if u played it

Chapter 2

It is believed that Eilanders have reincarnated as guests but with their past memories sealed

Except for Rabbit

[worn fable]

Oh you're right

I just finished up Paradox last night but was pretty tired during ch2

[worn fable]

I remember the D. Eilander bit but I also told my friend about how different David's personality seemed compared to Mr. Rabbit in Hotel particularly. So I assume the memories got... Unsealed between Hotel and Birthday?

[floral mauve]

Maybe

He had his plans apparently

Also have u discovered birthday Easter egg

[worn fable]

The snowglobe one? I have (:

[floral mauve]

Tell me what u think

[worn fable]

The only game I haven't completed the achievements for yet is White Door. And whatever might be on the demo for the newest game, which I haven't touched yet

What I think about... What?

[floral mauve]

Don’t worry about twd atm

[floral mauve]

About…the Easter egg

If u observed it closely

[worn fable]

Well. You're referring to the one where ||Harvey is attacked by the guests he killed in Hotel and becomes a normal bird||, right?

[floral mauve]

Yea

I am not sure about normal bird

[worn fable]

I only saw it the one time so if there was a detail I missed then I'd have to rewatch it

I meant "normal" anatomically, lmao

[floral mauve]

Is he normal though

Xd

[floral mauve]

Dunno about this either

But most likely

[worn fable]

African Grey parrots live for a long time but not that long

[floral mauve]

If u played roots

[floral mauve]

Yea

But my point wasn’t on Harvey

Many ppl didn’t think much about it

This is a niche idea

[worn fable]

Let me rewatch it real quick, see if I can spot something else before I continue this convo

[floral mauve]

Yeaaa

I was gonna say that I am gonna reveal it

Remember where was our convo’s focus

[worn fable]

Reveal it

The only new thing I took note of was the white beam of light

[floral mauve]

So we were talking about who?

[floral mauve]

Here

It’s a tiny detail u might feel upset

[worn fable]

Oh. Mr Rabbit's soul didn't break out of the glass?

[floral mauve]

We dunno

Maybe he already escaped

Before the rest of them do

[worn fable]

I didn't see him in the scene where they're chasing down Harvey. Does that have to do with it?

Ohhhh interesting (:

[floral mauve]

This is my guess

Or maybe he is rational and made a deal with owl for example

That’s pure guess as well

But the evidence is mr rabbit wasn’t seen

[worn fable]

Birthday makes it seem like they were somehow in contact but I'll have to replay it

If not in contact. Then aware of each other

[floral mauve]

So develop anything if u want as long as it connects

But we do know his goal

[worn fable]

Yeah

Thanks for the convo. I tend to get hung up on small details

Also, go study

[floral mauve]

Aw I will go sleep

It’s 4am

Good night

[worn fable]

Holy shit go get some sleep. Good night

[azure bay]

Not necessarily. Rabbit came for the pistol and Owl's letter appeared in the memory in 1972

[fluid maple]

Played Paradox chapter 2 for the first time recently and the ending raised some questions for me..
I always thought Laura committed suicide but.. the corrupted soul that killed her belongs to Dale? Is that even possible- for a corrupted soul and the real person to exist side by side because that would have to be the case for the timeline..

[azure bay]

Not sure it was the case for Dale, but it's possible. You can see Rabbit's soul passing by his window while he's still alive

[hollow igloo]

Laura committed suicide physically, but we can assume a corrupted soul was the cause of her action because of what we see in Seasons and in Lake. She was most likely haunted and shocked by the attack happening in the lake. Assuming that Corrupted Soul is Dale would give an ulterior meaning to the title “paradox”, plus the choice of the knife as the weapon is very symbolic and links everything back to seasons. How to solve the problem with the timeline is complicated though: the easiest solution could be time travel, or at least a similar thing. Maybe connecting Dale and Laura in The Cave/Paradox allowed them to be linked through time, and so Dale’s CS was able to attack Laura, either physically and/or mentally

[worn fable]

@rare drum "A familiewapen is a family crest or coat of arms. Most people in the Netherlands did not have a coat of arms. People who used them were usually members of the nobility or other members of the upper class. Working class families did not have a use for a crest."

[rare drum]

so they are upper class

[worn fable]

I'm gonna see if I can find anything about the symbolism behind Dutch family crests

The crow I doubt I'l find anything on but I'd like to see if the green/blue colorscheme and crown can be interpreted in a specific way

[rare drum]

im assuming the tree is just vanderboom

[worn fable]

Most likely

But I remember in, what, British coats of arms? A tree has a specific meaning

But Google isn't really turning up anything. The closest I could find was that two headed eagles represented imperial rule, and that is barely related to the crow on there. I'm sure actually being able to read Dutch would help a lot here

[rare drum]

probably

[azure bay]

@brittle dune long story short, a fetus from Pheasant's past life that is covered in ink and leaves a heart in Case 23 is her son William being corrupted and actuaaly leaving his heart for sacrifice in Roots

[floral mauve]

I am scared by my thoughts

Technically the Cube escape story is already finished and twd is the extra story for it

The metro and tpw are all sort of prequels

I still feel like paradox resembles an ending for Dale and he will rarely show up unless in the form of Easter egg

That’s probably a good way of ending a series

[floral mauve]

Just like in tpw hopefully

[azure bay]

the achievement teasing the metro game is called "the story continues" so there's still a chance that it's not entirely a prequel

[floral mauve]

Potential Time Machine secret reveals

There gotta be something linking to winter

[floral mauve]

What teasing achievement

[azure bay]

the crate in The Cave

[floral mauve]

Oh I see

That one

Does that mean it is possible they finally starting the alt timeline?

Since the main timeline is Dale becoming Deer golden cube deva and Bob left with Sarah, Laura seems to be dead still

[azure bay]

I'm not making any guesses based on information that scarse

[floral mauve]

With Laura revival

[floral mauve]

Alright

Oh right

Damn mammoth

Forgot about that

[azure bay]

what about it?

[floral mauve]

It’s prequal after prequel after prequel till ancient time

Sounds like a decent path

So we have to go diving into the past

[brittle dune]

wait wait wait WHAT

[azure bay]

Do I need to explain something?

[brittle dune]

no im just

hmmmmm

funky

[floral mauve]

[worn fable]

I'm sure this has been pointed out before but I was reading over the mentalhealthandfishing site and saw Jungian analysis on their services page... Which makes a lot of sense, considering how Jung uses water as a symbol of the subconscious and how much weird shit goes on around the Lake. Can anyone who's a bit more refreshed than I am on Jungian analysis think of other places where it can be applied to the story?

[floral mauve]

I am not that familiar with arg

@azure bay

[worn fable]

The part about finding it from the ARG was incidental 😅 I'm not far into it yet. The question was more about if anyone had theories about Jungian analysis when it came to the other games

[azure bay]

Nope, no expert

[floral mauve]

I don’t even know what is jungian analysis

[worn fable]

Jungian analysis is based on the writing of Carl Jung who was a Swiss psychologist. He had a lot of theories about the subconscious, anima and animus, collective unconsciousness, personality types, shit like that

A lot of what I know of his work is from what's relevant to the movie The Lighthouse where water being tied to the subconcious was also a major theme, which I think might have weight when it comes to RL/CE

[azure bay]

It's hard to keep track of what inspires them. Could be either reference or coincidence

[floral mauve]

heard of it

[worn fable]

I think there was at least surface level inspiration. Again, since Jungian analysis is listed under the services on the mentalhealthandfishing site

[floral mauve]

But I just see it as a possible inspiration, what theory do u have on this

[worn fable]

Or just something applied later as the writers realized it fit. I still think it would be interesting to try viewing the story through that lens

Nothing much as of now because it's been several years since I've looked into Jung's theories. That's why I asked if anyone else had ideas

I don't remember finer points well

[azure bay]

Jungian analysis doesn't mean The Lighthouse yet. That would be cool tho so try looking for more evidence

[worn fable]

I meant the movie The Lighthouse by Robert Eggers. Not the Cube Escape game The Mill. I mentioned that as an explanation how what I know of Jung is very limited

[azure bay]

Never spoke of The Mill here

Then I can you please paraphrase your question?

[worn fable]

I took "Jungian analysis doesn't mean The Lighthouse" to mean "There is no ties to Jungian analysis in The Mill so Jung is irrelevant to CE/RL" (and assumed that you meant The Mill since the titular mill looks a bit like a lighthouse)

And, because this is a Rusty Lake server so conversation here is centered on it. I also was not tying The Lighthouse to the CE/RL series if that's what it came off as

[azure bay]

No.

I'm asking about the initial question

TWD mentions Jung and his analysis. So what?

[worn fable]

Then could you also rephrase or repeat that question?

I have to reread about it so I may not be 100% accurate but. Carl Jung said that large bodies of water (such as a lake) symbolize the unconscious mind. Unconscious mind also referring to the collective subconscious

Collective subconscious being shit like impulses and ideas that people aren't taught but still follow

With the mention of Jungian analysis on MHAF, and the properties of the Lake we see in the games, I saw a connection and wanted to see if anyone else had ideas on it

[azure bay]

Ok. I'm not sure how wide spread this unconscious mind analogy is. If not really, that's more likely to be a mere coinsidence. If not, wr can still debate about what it implies about the lake

[worn fable]

I'll have to reread Jung's theories but I do think it would be an interesting conversation to have

Do I believe the developers got way deep into Jung when writing the game? No. And I wouldn't blame them for that

But ultimately I think it would be fun to think about some themes of the series through Jungian analysis. Especially when it comes to his thoughts on water/collective subconsciousness and the Shadow

[azure bay]

We have other themes to look through

One of them is canon

I'd prioritize them over Jung if they don't fit together

Unless we get more new evidence ofc

[worn viper]

Aight:-
Time to get back to it after months

Why did Mr.Rabbit kill Dale's family?

[azure bay]

No idea why he had to kill them but he came for the pistol from his past life

He needed that to escape his state

Presumably, to be reborn

[floral mauve]

I just realised something

Let’s assume it really is a pistol

That means Owl already knows about Rabbit’s plan and wants to let Dale know about it

Since theoretically, there is no way Dale knew it contains a pistol

[worn viper]

It just feels like the lives of all members associated with Rusty Lake are cursed (other than the caretakers ofc)

[azure bay]

Unless memory is a freaking accurate simulation of reality

Or IS reality

[floral mauve]

bruh

AC intensified

[modern willow]

yeah but mr owl... yeesh 😭 poor jakob

[azure bay]

He was the true winner of Paradise, on the other hand

[rare drum]

why does dale's house just have a pistol in a box that said 'hungry ghost' or something

[azure bay]

Pistol could be in their possession for various reasons but if you're asking about the chest, I think it's a hint that Rabbit is a CS

[floral mauve]

Idk, seems to me no one wins

Trade offer: dead mom, you receive enlightenment and responsibilities

[azure bay]

Well, you get a prolonged life, a magical power, an excessive knowledge giving you a political power

That's a win in my book

[floral mauve]

Maybe young Jakob would rather prefer to have a limited life and his mom alive

[rare drum]

yes but is there any reason why the chest
like for the story

[floral mauve]

Yes, I do know his mom back then is already dead

[rare drum]

maybe
but also it ends with mr owl saying paradise will rise again so

[azure bay]

It was her choice. Even if she wasn't burnt she would die anyway via elixir to accomplish her goal of Jacob's ascension

[floral mauve]

She probably vanquished eternally

[azure bay]

Wdym

[floral mauve]

It’s hard to say since the sacrifice target is CS

U see when sacrifice target is human, they just die and becomes CS or just reincarnated hopefully

[azure bay]

I'm saying it's irrelevant to the winner question since she would participate in the ritual no matter her form

[floral mauve]

I know

[rare drum]

well for the winner question

he did win over paradise

[floral mauve]

But it is much more courageous in CS form

Since the consequences is much tough

[rare drum]

maybe at a a bit of a cost though

[azure bay]

Yeah

Even over the lake

[rare drum]

oh yeah i just remembered

people were talking about paradox being kind of the end of dale's story

but didnt jakob intend him as a sucessor

[azure bay]

I think this is bullshit. It's more like Paradise taking place before Birthday and Theatre and the true Dale's ending will be in the hotel

The end of Cube Escape series - likely. But not Dale's arc

[rare drum]

yes
because of that achievement ending in chapter 2

[azure bay]

Mostly because

[rare drum]

and him going up in hotel

wait where is that part in the end of the cave

isn't that inside the lake

[azure bay]

Owl's achievement in Hotel was a prophecy of Dale eventually reaching ut

[rare drum]

ah

[worn viper]

Mr Rabbit is in his CS form. No doubt about that. He was murdered by Harvey and converted into a CS in 1893 (events of the rusty lake hotel). All the corrupted souls somehow broke out and Harvey turned into a bird while also losing his ability to transform into a part human and part bird form forever. There's a ton of evidence about the fact that the CS form is attained before reaching the stage of reincarnation to become virtually immortal.

Also
he looks like a corrupted soul when dale looks through the window

[rare drum]

what about the chapter 1 achievement ending
is that just considered another timeline
cause that doesnt seem to fit with the others just being dale living through the same room again and again and again

[worn viper]

nahh
you just get to have more authority over how you care for the lake.

It's all about the lake

and its power

[azure bay]

Wel, all they did to Harvey was killing him and it was Owl to resurrect him. I think he just is't powerful enough for granting an asura form.

But speaking of Rabbit, some think he wears a mask in Bday. Partially because his hands seem pale human in Paradox

[azure bay]

I personally agree. But a friend of mine thinks Dale just wakes up in the room once again afterwards.

[worn viper]

that's a really shallow way to look at it
Mr Owl wanted him as a contender for his position as the caretaker of the lake

[azure bay]

I agree

"I was a man like you, [...] my time is limited, I need a successor, the ruler of the lake"

@rare drum

[worn viper]

I don't understand this lol

[azure bay]

The Rusty Lake Hotel ending is the white cube showing the future

[worn viper]

another thing I'm curious about is why Mr owl offers dale the opportunity to choose the successor of the lake between him and laura

[azure bay]

I don't think it's Owl

[worn viper]

ohh yeah that

[azure bay]

It seems like the lake itself would prefer Laura

A year ago the devs arguably said, she's the lady of the lake

[worn viper]

how can you say this?

[azure bay]

Owl works with Dale. He seems to be the chosen one.

But the lake will be greatful if he choses Laura instead

[azure bay]

Whatever that title trully means

[worn viper]

wasn't it caroline eilander?

[azure bay]

They said they are both

At least a guy says they said

[worn viper]

then why is caroline eilander reincarnated as rose vanderboom
Their faces are the same.
I think the lady of the lake is supposed to be the woman who makes some sort of a sacrifice to pave way for the caretaker of the lake.

just like caroline did

[azure bay]

Facial resemblance was never confirmed to mean samsara connection.

It could mean their blood relation, it could mean the artist's lazyness

Speaking of the title, originally, it comes from the British legend of king Arthur. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't speak of sacrifice

[rare drum]

yes i know that's what i was talking about

[rare drum]

here

[azure bay]

Ah, that was a question, right?

Not statement

[rare drum]

yes

but like

i wasnt agreeing with the idea that paradox is the end

[azure bay]

Then I agree with you

[rare drum]

the lady of the lake is also whoever the person in theater was was playing
and ms pheasant
so does that just mean there are multiple ladies of the lake

maybe like how mr owl needs a successor
so does the lady of the lake

[azure bay]

I'd say that the songstress isn't real Lady

either stage name or opera title

[rare drum]

ah i thought they were playing as 'the lady of the lake'

like ms pheasant

maybe that's just meant to be caroline
like the painting in case 23

[azure bay]

well, she's likely playing the protagonist of the opera so you could also be right

[azure bay]

maybe

[rare drum]

did the lake have a leader before mr owl?
because nikolas doesn't seem like he's actually the leader of the lake
just the leader of the lake cult

[azure bay]

it seems like the duties of the ruler were previously fulfilled by the cult

Owl replaced it as it died out

[rare drum]

oh alright then

[azure bay]

I think providing cubes is the major duty

[rare drum]

was the cult doing that?
it seemed like they didnt really know what to do when the plagues showed up

i guess they were sacrificing

but after sacrificing caroline they still needed the memories

[azure bay]

Caroline knew and there was a monumental seemingly old setpiece for offering cubes

[rare drum]

oh yeah damn

[azure bay]

A good question is why they needed them

[rare drum]

the lake wanted specifically caroline right

like her memories

[azure bay]

not sure

[rare drum]

caroline said her memories are the key to the future
but that doesn't necessarily mean they are needed for the lake

[azure bay]

Nicolas in particular used one of the cubes to find something. Caroline hid elixir elements in her memories and didn't want the family to use them.

It's possible that the lake just wanted cubes and the only ones the cult had they were not willing to give

however it's weird then that they let Jacob dispose them

[rare drum]

yeah

like at first i thought they didnt know how to get them
but they were in possesion of some

did nikolas say paradise was suffering since jakob left or since caroline died

[azure bay]

since Caroline died. But we don't really know when she died

[rare drum]

so is that when the first plague would have started
whenever that is

[rare drum]

it's not even that important a memory so why does nicolas want to keep just that cube but does not care about the others

[azure bay]

I'd argue he needs Caroline's elixir

and she wants to keep it for Jacob

[floral mauve]

I think they believe Caroline has a better option for enlightenment

Elixir

Which sounds safer than the ritual

Which isn’t

But more fair

[azure bay]

or more profitable

[floral mauve]

He doesn’t know this though

[floral mauve]

Also possible

[rare drum]

but there was another memory with caroline researching the elixir
that memory was just him saying something to jakob
i was asking why he just lets jakob take all the others (including the elixir one) but was holding onto that one
like ig he doesnt have more valuable memories but does that just mean the rest of the family (or just nikolas) doesn't know about jakob's plague curing shenanigans

[floral mauve]

Nicklas was looking for all other memories but failed to collect all of them I believe

Plus I don’t think Nicklas was on Jakob all the time, remember he also passed out for a while due to David?

So Jakob could drop the cube in the well secretly

[rare drum]

that would be the only possible way if nikolas was looking for the elixir
still feels kinda weird
i guess just because some people in the family know that doesnt mean they'll tell nikolas
or maybe nikolas is the only one who cares about the elixir

cause some of the other family members would have literally been right outside the well

[floral mauve]

I doubt all of them really want to kill Jakob

Nickolas yes for sure

Some of them are more vague

[azure bay]

all 10 memories contain a hidden elixir element extracted and fused in the ending

[rare drum]

oh my god I completely forgot about that yeah thanks

[rare drum]

and this or other kinda explains why he 'let' jakob use the others

[azure bay]

I have a little different idea about Nicolas' plans

[rare drum]

do tell

[azure bay]

the 10th plague arguably takes place during the glorious day of the lake. That's the moment to sacrifice the 1stborn

I don't know how the plagues work exactly

but at least they seem spread throughout the year, according to leaves on the trees

[floral mauve]

The years

How long did it took Jakob to solve all

I don’t remember

[azure bay]

1 year more or less

[floral mauve]

5 years?

[floral mauve]

More I think

[rare drum]

where did you get this?

[floral mauve]

I definitely saw it somewhere

[rare drum]

or is it just an estimation

[floral mauve]

Or I was high

Nvm

[azure bay]

The letter was written in spring, then I saw the leaves going withered, then we have Hail in winter and and then the leaves reappear

[floral mauve]

I hate that I am on vacation

If I have my laptop

So what was the tenth plague, I remembered we had an argument about it

Was it bloodmoon

But i thought it was ninth

This is what happens when u don’t archive the chats

[azure bay]

the 10th plague is death of the 1stborn. the darkness comes before

[floral mauve]

I know

What I mean is

Why is this a plague

Usually plagues are naturals causes

It looks like one

Death of the first born is quite different than all of the ones before

[azure bay]

the major reason because it was in the bible

[floral mauve]

I know

[floral mauve]

We are trying to solve this

[azure bay]

the 10th plague is still technically supernatural

I guess at least

[floral mauve]

How so, they basically burned the child on a specific day and nothing usual about it except enlightenment

I would rather say the tenth plague is a bonus reward

For solving the nine plagues and gave another opportunity

For messed up the last sacrifice

[azure bay]

plagues aren't puzzles you need to solve

you feed a cube, it ends

[floral mauve]

?

Where u get that

Oh

Nvm

I see

Then I have no idea

Does that mean Caroline as CS can control 10 plagues

Since she thought that her son came back and there is no escape

Why not just enlighten him

[floral mauve]

This is a key part

Revealing deep connection between Caroline and lake

Why the lake does stuff or listen to her even after she died

[azure bay]

why do you think it listens to anybody?

[floral mauve]

If it follows a specific pattern

It suggests so

[azure bay]

no, it doesn't. I expect Jacob inserting any other cube and the plague ceasing

[floral mauve]

Hum

I am not sure

We can’t be sure

I wrote those interpretations above just to fill details since we got the conclusions or results

[azure bay]

we can't and this is true for your statement as well

[floral mauve]

Exactly

[azure bay]

I may be wrong but I suspect what you are doing is rationalizing. Writing the answer and then trying to make the evidence fit

[floral mauve]

Yes

That’s what I am trying to do all the time

We have the result

We need to find process and details of how to get to that result

[azure bay]

rationalizing and being rational are different things. Just bear it in mind and be ready to switch to a different conclusion when you are done with the current one

[floral mauve]

I know

That’s why it often develops into some sort of fan fic stuff

Which is the point I know it should be abandoned

When interpretations exceed facts or evidence too much

[azure bay]

I expect other memories to work as fine because in her book Caroline wrote about memories belonging to the lake

what's more, this statement is simpler in general

[floral mauve]

But how it fits so perfectly

10 cubes 10 plagues

Caroline planned her split?

[azure bay]

If I were writer, that wouldn't be the 1st thing I think about

I would take 10 plagues and put some red line through all of them

you also missed 10 elixir elements

[rare drum]

does the elixir have one formula

i feel like everyone who makes it makes it a different way

[floral mauve]

u aren’t wrong there

I believe Caroline and Harvey developed concept, and alchemists and Jakob improved it to physical form

[azure bay]

What is your evidence of Harvey's involvement?

[rare drum]

harvey?

i only remember him in paradise with the flower achievement

[floral mauve]

Just the achievement

He could hand in the right ingredients

[rare drum]

i guess caroline never actually made an elixir
william made it by reacting an egg with a glass(?)
james did
something

[floral mauve]

Just in time

[rare drum]

that doesn't really seem like evidence

[azure bay]

Why do I have to tell you that there's an enormous leap between "Harvey lives" and "Harvey helps Caroline"?

[floral mauve]

Don’t expect the mini game be that realistic, and James most likely used the leftovers

[rare drum]

yeah that too

[floral mauve]

right

Just to make the story richer

[rare drum]

i don't think harvey showed any involvement in the elixir
the closest you could get is "he's mr owl's butler"
but thats more on the memory side of things

[floral mauve]

Harvey is in another level

I mean not in terms of samsara

But he definitely knows more

[rare drum]

are you referring to the achievement with the flower or is this something else

[azure bay]

in other words, to make a fanfic.

I personally would expect Harvey being present in the memory where she works on the elixir.

[rare drum]

yes
but
his goals or background is unknown
so i dont think we can say he was involved with caroline
at least for now

thay achievement might just be mr owl and harvey meeting for the first time

[floral mauve]

I really doubt Caroline could make elixir within that poor environment on her own

[azure bay]

or foreshadowing Harvey's appearance even earlier in the timeline

[rare drum]

the only thing you could possibly conclude is that harvey had the elixir which allowed him to survive for that long
but even then doesn't time travel kind of exist

[floral mauve]

Must have some supernatural stuff involved

[azure bay]

my point is the same. If Harvey helps, they are with Caroline during research

[floral mauve]

Yes

That’s what I meant

[rare drum]

alright then

[floral mauve]

I am not sure about it

He lives way longer without elixir

[azure bay]

no, we can't say even that. Cause the devs seemingly said that Harvey is also ancient. Which makes me expect them in the 20k BC game

[rare drum]

my god what theres a 20k bc game

[azure bay]

there's nothing speaking in Harvey's favor over any other supernatural piece

[azure bay]

1st teased on Chrismas 2018

[floral mauve]

Maybe

[rare drum]

wow
im guessing that'll be a while then

[floral mauve]

It is still a thing I guess

Most optimistic guess would be trailer by the end of 2023

Game out by 2024

[rare drum]

cool

[floral mauve]

It’s my guess

Since Unity is still too new for them

So who knows

[rare drum]

so harvey can go from bird to bird-person
crow can go human to bird-person
owl can go human to bird-person

can they go full

[floral mauve]

Full?

[rare drum]

full animal to full human

or other way

[floral mauve]

Oh

I think maybe they can

Just maybe

Since two stages are close to each other

[azure bay]

no, Harvey seemingly lost his asura form after dying in 1894

[floral mauve]

But I am not sure it works in RL universe

[rare drum]

he died?
didn't he just escape with bird form?
or do you mean his bird-human form died??

[floral mauve]

That’s what he meant

[azure bay]

he was asura

he died

he was resurrected as a bird

[floral mauve]

How he gained his asura form remains a mystery

[azure bay]

and no evidence of switching between them before nor after the incident

[floral mauve]

Since normal animal drinks normal green elixir only gains longer life

[rare drum]

oh okay

[hollow igloo]

Technically there could be. It’s again the problem with “the search”: assuming the entire stage is set in 1891, then there would be the proof that Harvey transformed before the incident. I wouldn’t say that for sure they didn’t transform earlier, it depends on how you interpret that event.

[azure bay]

You know how I interpret it and I insist on it because you don't leave your goodbye letter 5 years before actually being gone

[hollow igloo]

Yes I know. And your theory makes sense, but still doesn’t convince me completely. My only point is that you can’t say for sure that there is no evidence, and it depends on the interpretation. Of course in your view, which again makes sense, there is a single event of that kind and that is ok.

[azure bay]

let's address science a bit

hmm...

trying to explain it I'm starting to get what you think

[hollow igloo]

It’s nothing against your theory, mind that

[azure bay]

technically, we have 2 suspiciously similar events with similar results

a light beam strikes the hotel entrance and then we see Harvey as a bird

[hollow igloo]

Objective

[azure bay]

you think that Harvey is so exceptional that he's able to switch between forms despite us never seeing that and, what's more, never seeing that for other animals. And based on that (consciously or not) you try to explain The Search. Am I right?

[hollow igloo]

Not exactly

My point is the following: my base assumption is that the events in Roots happen the exact year mentioned in the level intro. Starting from that, I try to male reason of what the characters do and why.

From that I concluded some points.

First of all, Harvey is a special being, we are not yet sure on how. Still, I don’t think he transformed by himself

Mainly because it’s very plausible that Owl transformed him during the accident, this way saving a dying Harvey. So I assume Owl did the same. Plus the light ray is somehow linked to Owl’s magic, since it’s shown in the Mill

Why would Owl send Harvey? Maybe because without that letter Frank wouldn’t get the timepiece. And Owl probably wants William to be resurrected in order to later obtain the elixir’s recipe.

And about the goodbye letter: first of all, the letter is already written at the beginning of the stage, so assuming it began in 1891 and ended in 1893, it would still mean that the letter was written in 1891. Plus, writing 5 years or 3 years before committing suicide doesn’t make much of a difference IMO. My guess is that, not knowing if she would ever find Frank or not, and not knowing how long she would resist before committing suicide, she wrote the letter earlier as a precaution in case she died before finding Frank for whatever reason.

But again, I start assuming the whole level is set in 1891. Assuming the event in Roots is the same as Hotel then you would be right.

[azure bay]

ok so

we know what was the light beam in 1894

[hollow igloo]

Yes you are right

My bad

[azure bay]

what would it be in 1891

?

[hollow igloo]

Owl sending Harvey specifically to retrieve the letter.

Maybe he trusted him so much that he specifically sent him

Knowing that whatever happened he would keep it

[azure bay]

ok, I'll address that then.

1. The topic of William's resurrection concerning Owl is quite debatable On one hand, "The fate of Rusty Lake lies in this small seed" and on the other one, they are drinking a shitty extract which could be prevented by taking William's journal and materials before James.

2. I assume, the light beam in 1891 would be Owl turning Harvey into a bird. The problem lies in the opposite. If Owl could easily turn him back into Asura, we would see him in such form at least once.

[hollow igloo]

1. that is a good point, but then why doing all of that stuff with Laura’s memories? The journal didn’t disappear after James used it. Or maybe the recipe in the journal was somehow not definitive, and the only way they had to retrieve it would be from the memories. I’m honestly confused.

2)How did Harvey become an Asura in the first place? We know that they were a parrot in Paradise. An answer to this question could be the answer to our problem

[azure bay]

1. Necessity of Laura's memories could come later. Either when they realized that their immortality is finite or Owl started thinking about finding a successor or maybe even both (still no understanding of the seed's importance tho)

Then I think that if retrieving William's journal wasn't a problem, they would likely succeed. So It could be destroyed, or yeah, not containing all William's secrets

2. we don't know as well as when it happened. It could be Owl, It could be something else. Assuming that was Owl with a little elixir reserve he presumably used to gain loyalty of his Hotel employees, the reserve was already depleted by 1894. Or it could be something else.

I think the sum of probabilities of 2 events ("Owl enlightened Harvey but his reserve was depleted before 1891" and "Harvey was enlightened not by Owl") is roughly higher than probability of a single "Owl enlightened Harvey and his reserve was depleted not before 1891 but before 1894"

ok, now to the case itself

according to science, the simplest theory explaining the phenomenon is the best

in one corner we have: Emma looking for Frank for a short month (the pumpkin makes me think of Halloween. if not, it's 3 months at most), Harvey was turned into a bird by a beam striking into the entrance in 1891, was given a letter to deliver, somehow mysteriously turned back into Asura, died and was resurrected as a bird by a light beam striking the same place the 2nd time during that decade, Emma hesitating for 5 years despite the letter being sent with a possibility of it finding the recipient.

in the other corner we have Emma looking for Frank for 5 whole years, Harvey dying and being turned into a bird by a single beam, Emma making her mind to kill herself and sending the letter as the final goodbye

1. mother looking a child for 5 years is better than looking for 1-3 months and then hesitating to die for 5 years
2. 1 beam striking during the same decade is simpler that 2 with enlightenment in between
3. Long time skip in a game that covers more than half a century isn't that bad

[hollow igloo]

If the simplest theory is the best one, then I could say that, since the game says it happens in 1891, then it happens in 1891. Not analysing the lore that is the most reasonable and simple thing: if there is a date, that is the date.

[azure bay]

that would work If The Search chapter was isolated from the lore. But it's not, we have other knowledge and events to fit in

and the bigger picture I propose is less complex

at least for now

[hollow igloo]

1. never said she would have stopped searching. Plus according to your theory she would still hesitate 2 years, unless Harvey came to her in 1896.
2. yes, but it’s the same as before: the games say that once it happens in 1894, once in 1891, again on a surface level.
3. true, but it’s not confirmed to be there and that is a subjective point (on which I could agree)

[azure bay]

1. we saw Harvey only coming. He didn't have a date on him. So I bet on 1896.

2. Agree on Birthday but Roots isn't the game to be reviewed on the surface level. Its timespan is the longest, its saturated with events and symbolisms, its protagonist is kept in secret until the 3rd act.

[hollow igloo]

2. I know it’s not to be reviewed on a surface level, you probably didn’t get my point. That is to say, it is simpler to assume that the entire stage is entirely set in a single year than it takes a 5 years time span, if it is said to be set in a single year in the title. If you assert that you should follow Occam’s razor, I do by interpreting the data we have in the simplest way possible. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe you are wrong or maybe we are both wrong.
   Plus, I never said your theory is not logical, I repeat that in case it’s not clear enough. I’m not still convinced because in my interpretation I gave myself that base I told you before, and built my theory accordingly. To me, every theory built in a reasonable way and with a sensed logic is plausible, meaning for now both mine and yours are. And that is ok, the only truth is that of the devs.

Now I think I’ll go, I’m a bit tired

[azure bay]

I want to answer

[hollow igloo]

Sure

[azure bay]

I repeat, you use Occam's razor locally. It's ok if the case is isolated. But it's clearly not so I use it globally, asserting combined probabilities of a set of events. And the thing is, even if the chapter was isolated, it would be still weird on its own.

Speaking of the dates, most of the time we see that text only once before the stage starts. Without a possibility to see it again in later games and remakes. And it's always a single year no matter the level and no matter even the game. For now I know 2 cases of a possible time skip and I'm so sure about one of them that if it's not canon at least partially, too bad for the canon. And assuming at least one of these cases is true, the dates are still always a single year. So since "If the map is true no matter where you go, it doesn't tell you where you live." maybe they indicate only the chapter's beginning indeed?

[hollow igloo]

There is only one way to know the truth: asking the devs

Time to raid Rusty Lake’s office @azure bay

[azure bay]

It seems they prefer ambiguity

so do I in most cases

with some exceptions as such

just because there's no alternatives as great (probably yet)

[crystal scroll]

Hi everyone, I'm new here

I see you have a lot of great theories running, is there any wiki or other collection of them?

[hollow igloo]

If so, @azure bay is the expert, but I don’t think there is

[azure bay]

no, theories are mostly subjects of people's mind

[covert wyvern]

there is a wiki but theory-wise I wouldnt rely on it

you could use the discord search function or maybe look at the more extensive reddit posts but thats about it I reckon?

[azure bay]

I personally collect theories with the goal to cover them all on YouTube one day. There used to be Devotee guys but I heard nothing of them lately

[crystal scroll]

If you don't mind chatting a bit, I completed almost all the games (I think I'm missing Samsara) and I really like the world but I'm struggling to put all the pieces together

[crystal scroll]

That's a good idea, though I imagine there's tons of posts and messages to search through xd

[azure bay]

I suggest you looking into details and making your own conclusions 1st. Your contribution may be of great value for the community

[hollow igloo]

Let’s say that there are some major plot points on which there is a general consensus, others that are more debatable, as you read from our previous discussion.

[crystal scroll]

Well, as far as I got this:
At first I thought that Rusty Lake is some sort of mystic / beyond-human establishment overwatching some part of human world, something along Twin Peaks vibes: they collect memories, let some chosen ones to mess with their past and future and fend against dark entities which come from the bad / traumatic memories.
But in The Cave we see that all of that was started by Vanderboom family to find the elixir of immortality

Obv at some point I thought that all of that is a piece of Dale Vandermeer's troubled mind who envisions his "guidance" through traumatic events as strange creatures like Owl and Crow, but it's a pretty boring theory

[hollow igloo]

Basically a “it’s all a dream” type theory

[crystal scroll]

Yeah, there's no story / worldbuilding development from there

[crystal scroll]

What are the general consensus plot points?

[azure bay]

I'm not sure about a lot of them

[hollow igloo]

Things like the guests of the hotel being the Eilanders from Paradise for example.

[azure bay]

yeah, that's one of the few I'm sure are consensus

[crystal scroll]

Also at some point I thought about alternate timelines / dimensions, partially because messing with past can change the future, and partially because of strange difference between The Mill and The Cave: through all the stories we see the same woman (Laura), and in The Mill mr. Owl sends mr. Crow a note that he will later send him a "body of a woman"; and in The Cave we learn that she's an heiress to the Vanderboom family, so in no way they could miss the importance of her and refer to her just like "some woman"

[crystal scroll]

Whaaaaaat

What are all those words

T_T

[covert wyvern]

haha have you not played Rusty Lake Hotel and Paradise?

[crystal scroll]

Ah, I guess I missed that as well

[azure bay]

Also Roots and The White Door are better to check

[crystal scroll]

Uhum, I'm seeing the whole list of the games I missed on reddit

[covert wyvern]

ye there's also #📚｜resources here on discord

id definitely run from this channel to check out those games if you have the chance LMAO

[crystal scroll]

I'll guess I'll go check them out and come back later xd

[covert wyvern]

have fun out there 07

[azure bay]

I can suggest you a playthrough order that helps to better comprehend the plot

[crystal scroll]

Is it the same one recommended on reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/rustylake/comments/gqubku/rusty_lake_faq_please_read_before_posting_a/

like here

[azure bay]

it's likely the release order so no

[crystal scroll]

Then I'll have your take on this!

[hollow igloo]

The release order is the best one for the entire experience, but probably not the best to understand the plot. Honestly I never thought about that.

[azure bay]

some people try going chronologically. It's better sometimes and sometimes it's worse. What I do is taking the best of 2

trying not to ruin most of the reveals

[hollow igloo]

Yeah, a mix would probably be the best

[crystal scroll]

I mean I already played through most of them

In pretty random order

It's hard to keep track of the plot when my mind is focused on puzzles xd

[azure bay]

so replaying is the way to go :з

[hollow igloo]

That is probably why most people don’t get the plot clearly at first

And it’s pretty understandable

[crystal scroll]

Yep, definitely doing this

I actually had a random thought of making a short TTRPG module based on Rusty Lake, but wanted to set things straight first in my head

So was looking on wiki or other straightforward info, but I guess figuring it out for myself is more fun anyway :)

[hollow igloo]

What is a TTRPG?

[covert wyvern]

Table top role playing game

akin to DND

(or Dungeons and Dragons I guess)

[hollow igloo]

Ah, Table Top, got it

Those two letters were the one I didn’t get

Then I know what it is

[covert wyvern]

ah sorry! guess I wanted to play it safe and give you the entire thing

[crystal scroll]

Yeah, Rusty Lake provides a lot of material for a good horror / mystic detective module

[covert wyvern]

Id agree! anyway we are slowly drifting off topic 🙂

that was supposed to be a 😉 but anyway!

[hollow igloo]

You are right, thanks

[south heath]

The dude that's Dale's "Grandpa".. Same bar guy from Theatre.. Is he not Mr Crow?

Might be not braining rn but something in general confused me

[covert wyvern]

theres a few things to consider there; ye Dales grandpa is just straight up Mr. Crow. no they just reused art bc theyre flashgames and thats just their "old man" model. or Dales memory of his birthday is manipulated, he didnt have a grandpa and mr crow is there pretending to be his grandpa for reasonsTM

[modern willow]

hmm... the answer is a little complicated because in birthday dale says that his memory has been "captured in little cubes". we know somewhat how cubes work, but i dont think we canonically know if the memories inside those cubes can be manipulated. for me personally, i think im more leaning on dales memories becoming altered especially because how intense the trauma was for him. in paradox, his psychological file reads "losing sight of reality in recent murder case, which triggered several unprocessed memories." if you combine his fixation on lauras murder and rusty lake with that triggering the trauma of his parents being killed, i think it stands as an idea that his memories could be altered due to his mental state.

[covert wyvern]

seems reasonable too

[azure bay]

Memories about Theatre were altered

We know that because of the 2nd perspective provided by TWD

Bob's persoective

Only 1st play was there originally

It was announced on posters

All the others were added for Dale's samsara lesson sake

[modern willow]

ooohhh i forgot about that

which is funny considering i just finished the white door LOL

[drowsy geyser]

Is there a place or a channel that does good comprehensive videos about this?

[azure bay]

I'm currently working on it but it's quite a task to cover everything

almost finished a vid about theories on Laura's early arc

you can also watch RazzJazz

he covered 18-19th century timeline quite well

and also made a decent vid about Birthday

[modern willow]

i love razzjazz's videos + commentary, i hope they get back to youtube soon ♡♡

[azure bay]

He's planning on making a blind playthrough of TPW

[modern willow]

WOOO AWESOME :3

[real lantern]

I wonder if people becoming corrupted souls is a common occurence in the RL universe

I feel like its not, because if it were, a detective like dale would probably know what he saw when he visited laura's crime scene

[azure bay]

becoming CS and seeing one are different things

[real lantern]

Thats fair, but i still feel like there are some characteristic things that happen around bodies that turned into corrupted souls that would be recognisabke by law enforcement

[azure bay]

why do you feel like that? Corrupted soul are hungry ghosts from Indian mythology

mostly ghosts

[real lantern]

Well, theres always strange things happening around corrupted souls, bugs turning into numbers in the ceiling, dead bodies moving, those are all things that would probably be part of policeman training were corrupted soul cases common occurences

[azure bay]

bugs turning into numbers had nothing to do with corrupted soul

[rare drum]

yeah that's just rusty lake moths being moths

[floral mauve]

imo, CS are some physically strong beings with some abilities

usually not visible from human unless they are talented or mentally unstable

[south heath]

Speaking of theories

I still do not understand how Arles applied to anything except maybe introducing that there was a black and a white cube (if u played the games in recommended order I think)

Cause like the only variation of cubes from the two games before.. was the uhm the black and the blue cube no?

[floral mauve]

I dont get it

I thought Seasons and The lake came out first

[south heath]

Yeah

[floral mauve]

Then the cubes should already appear

[south heath]

In the collection it's uh Seasons, Lake then Arles right or am I wildin

[floral mauve]

All three cubes I believe

[south heath]

Yeah but there's no white cube yet I don't think

[floral mauve]

Yea the white one isnt certain

[south heath]

Unless maybe I'm just a little crazy

[floral mauve]

but she did have some sort of white cube by the end if I remember it correctly

[south heath]

Wait you might be right

[floral mauve]

as far as I know

Arles is mostly an extra content for the universe since the devs are dutch and they give Van Gogh some credit. However, it does have some possible connections, such as relationship between Van Gogh and Mr Owl (Hotel), and how did he fight his own CS

[delicate atlas]

Imo it demonstrates how mental illness and CSs are related

And as straynut said, it's a universe thing

Showing us that van gogh is part of the RL universe

And the lake's influence on people throughout history

[azure bay]

@south heath @delicate atlas
And don't forget a theory about Vincent attending RL Hotel

But yeah, his story doesn't influence the major plot

[delicate atlas]

Does that mean he survived it? Since he was still alive in his Arles room. Unless it's a room in the hotel

[azure bay]

Why does attending hotel has to end with death?

[ebon aspen]

maybe we assumed the hotel was more of a ploy to kill guests and gather memories than anything else
but yeah, owl and gogh could just be good friends and they spent a vacation there together

[delicate atlas]

Like mr. Parrot said

I assumed everyone who attends the hotel dies

[azure bay]

I think the hotel is the base for RL Mental Health & Fishing

which is expected to operate like The White Door

[delicate atlas]

I see

[azure bay]

Owl mentioned fishing facilities in his letter to Boar

and also there was a flyer in Paradox implying that the hotel is a mental health resort

plus, building such a hotel just to murder people seems unprofitable

[azure bay]

do you think all the people in The White Door basement were Owl's friends too?

[ebon aspen]

Nope

[azure bay]

then I think van Gogh doesn't have to be such

[ebon aspen]

Cool

[delicate atlas]

I had fun watching nowherecaw's video

The theory on the long lasting trauma is my favorite

I personally don't think the rituals have actual meanings

Or the shapes

The devs probably just added them because they think they look cool

[azure bay]

apples look cool?

I'm worried that it was the only significant apple appearance in the series

@delicate atlas

[delicate atlas]

Fair

I remember damy saying dutch people love apples a lot

So maybe that's why

[azure bay]

ah, and technically, it doesn't last long 🙂

[delicate atlas]

You get what I'm trying to say lmao

[azure bay]

just a joke

but don't you think that Missing Parrot has to be the case if The Lake is a memory?

@delicate atlas

[delicate atlas]

I do think that the lake is probably a memory that fits somewhere in seasons fall

I kinda didn't get the missing parrot one that much though

[azure bay]

ok, I'll reiterate

[delicate atlas]

Thanks

[azure bay]

the voice says "all that you touch you change"

and that's true, all the changes stay

the candle burns, the cactus grows

and Harvey is gone

after letting her out in spring

[delicate atlas]

Yes

So she doesn't save Laura, right?

[azure bay]

yeah

[delicate atlas]

And then does Laura die in the lake or does she survive on her own and dies later in seasons?

Or are both scenarios possible?

[azure bay]

I know only 2 ways for Laura to survive in the cabin

1. Harvey
2. the pentagon

if Harvey is gone Laura has to figure out the latter in order to continue her life journey

unless you can propose a 3rd option

[delicate atlas]

I don't think I can

[azure bay]

do you get what I mean now?

[delicate atlas]

Yes

But how does that lead to seasons and the machine?

[azure bay]

what does?

[delicate atlas]

Killing Harvey

I'm so sorry I'm so confused

Only theory that clicked was the trauma one 💀

[azure bay]

I guess, I have to be clearer next time

[azure bay]

can you paraphrase your question? I don't get a picture in your head yet

[delicate atlas]

You said the missing parrot theory is the most likely if the lake is a memory, so I asked why/how and what is the missing parrot's role in all of this?

From what I understood, Harvey not saving Laura makes her have to use the pentagram

To survive

So does that mean she set Harvey free in spring?

[azure bay]

(1st, Missing Parrot works with the reality changing just as well or even better)

[delicate atlas]

So does that make the lake a reality?

[azure bay]

@delicate atlas sorry my internet connection went down

[delicate atlas]

I think it's discord because the same happened to me

[azure bay]

The Major question is, do the memories change the reality?

Unfortunately, this question is fundamental and mostly forms everything else

many things work both ways

[delicate atlas]

Yeah I see your point there

If the memories chabged reality that would create multiple timelines, but we never saw that in the games

Once a memory is changed we move on to the next

So memories being changed just to convince its owner that things are well makes more sense to me

[azure bay]

multiple endings in several games can be taken as the timeline branching. And honestly, some games may belong to a different timeline

[delicate atlas]

That's a good point

Never saw it that way

I saw it as what the next memories would be after changing the current one being changed

As if it never happened and such

But it doesn't change the fact that it does, like how in paradox we can see Dale still has trauma from his parents' death despite changing it in birthday

[azure bay]

because Birthday is after Paradox?

[delicate atlas]

Oh right

I always forget

To me it seems to be the last game in dale's journey, because it takes place on the surface of the lake

[azure bay]

No, it's actually in Dale's head while he's connected to a machine

waaaaaaay back down the lake

[delicate atlas]

Right, I forgot about that whole thing

Now I remember

[floral mauve]

ehm I never thought about something

which one came first during Dale's Journey

Theatre or Birthday

[azure bay]

what do you mean by that and what problems does it have with timeline branching?

[floral mauve]

probably unimportant

[delicate atlas]

Like once we're done with an alternative ending we don't really see how does it effect other games connected to it

[azure bay]

I think Birthday because it's misty forest there and in Theatre it's a red tint that's drawn under the surface on flyers

[delicate atlas]

Does any of the multiple endings of paradox affect birthday or theater for example?

[floral mauve]

thats true

[floral mauve]

dont think so, but it will create different timelines I believe

not just a particular event

[delicate atlas]

But we never see that

[floral mauve]

Ask the devs to make more games of different timelines which will be years later 😦

[delicate atlas]

We don't see every possible birthday or theater according to each paradox ending

[azure bay]

Depending on the results of Dale-Laura ritual, Seasons could belong to the green vial timeline

[floral mauve]

exactly

[delicate atlas]

Would you make a video about that one day?

Seems interesting

[delicate atlas]

Would be fun ngl

[floral mauve]

tbh

[delicate atlas]

I'd be content with a blog post

[azure bay]

it's a long way to go but probably

[delicate atlas]

Nice

What about the mill ending?

[floral mauve]

I think it will be pretty soon devs connecting Seasons and alternative or green vial timeline

[azure bay]

let's sort out Harvey 1st

[floral mauve]

since metro Laura is already a thing

[delicate atlas]

With the young laura game?

[delicate atlas]

Sure

[floral mauve]

yes

[floral mauve]

I dont think it would be only about Laura travelling, must have some Rusty dark side

[delicate atlas]

For sure

[azure bay]

in case memories affect the reality, there's no problem at all. Laura's just dead and has to fix The Lake alongside the things leading to her other possible death.

in case memories don't, they still affect Laura's state. If she thinks she's dead she stays corrupted. The Lake may have nothing to do with the Seasons machine but the machine itself is a trickery in this system

[floral mauve]

I would love to see some IF timelines, such as one Dale died and Laura sort of revived or didnt even die, or even becoming Deva/Asura

[delicate atlas]

I see

I'll try to rewatch the video later on and try to understand it more

[azure bay]

good luck with that

If you do understand smth, feel free to suggest simpler explanations

I'm definitely remaking the video when there's enough things to add or fix

[delicate atlas]

It was good to me

I liked the slide show/visuals

The audio quality is better than the previous one

But there was lots of info all at once

So it takes time to sink in

It also introduced so many things I've never noticed so it's all new information to me

[azure bay]

Maybe that's a good reason to reinvent the format. Originally I wanted to make a single video but more and more new insights enlarged the script so I decided to split it in 2 (a recap and an explanation). I think, explanations could be split even further

[delicate atlas]

I see

Good luck!

I enjoy your content and insight

[azure bay]

thx a lot

[sage token]

@azure bay I've been thinking and I'm wondering what you think the relationships are between Owls, Deer, and the Lake? Like Mr Owl is the Lake's caretaker (can't remember if there was a different term used) and he believes that Dale (who we've seen as a deer a few times) is the "Chosen One" and the person to take over after him. Then we also have Caroline and Mr Deer (whose human name escapes me). Caroline is a Lady of the Lake (not sure what that entails), but she's also associated with owls. And Mr Deer is in charge of their cult thing, but he doesn't have a relationship with the Lake in the same way that Mr Owl does I believe. I do think that the different animals heads mean different roles (?). If that's the case, how can Dale (a deer) succeed Mr Owl (an owl)? If I'm making any sense lol

[floral mauve]

Interesting point

[azure bay]

I think Nicolas was more about the family getting enlightenment than providing memories to the lake

he wasn't Mr. Deer at the time

and when he became him, he was just researching the lake

likely with no memories about the cult

[floral mauve]

Deer figure does not necessarily reflect on Nikolas only

ehm, some similarity between Dale, Albert and Nikolas?

[sage token]

Right, Albert is also associated with deer, I forgor

[floral mauve]

assuming the characteristic affect animal figure

[azure bay]

For now I see no Albert-Lake relations whatsoever

[floral mauve]

yea

but sussy Albert Dale relation

[azure bay]

so I expect Dale just being Owl with antlers

[floral mauve]

bruh

[sage token]

Okay

[floral mauve]

Albert is more of dead Deer

Whereas Dale seems to be both

he got deer skeleton and fleshy deer head

[azure bay]

I kinda doubt Albert being connected to deers like the others

[floral mauve]

(Nikolas + Albert)/2 = Dale

sounds about right

[azure bay]

It could just be his voodoo outfit

[sage token]

Remind me, when did he have a deer skeleton? The one on the Paradox wall?

[floral mauve]

yes

[sage token]

Ah

[azure bay]

Also Hotel

The 1st appearance

Or rather 1st 2 of them

[floral mauve]

em?

yes

[azure bay]

A tabasco dispencer and Mr. Deer's own skull

[floral mauve]

the one produces tabasco

yes

thats the cursed part

[sage token]

Ah

I'd forgotten all about that

[azure bay]

I heard a theory that Albert was successful in sorcery due to an asura skull

[floral mauve]

Random CS gave asura skull sounds about right

assuming Mr Crow isnt a crossdresser

[azure bay]

Or dead Crow from the future

[sage token]

To be fair, we got a lot a weird stuff going on around the Lake; Emma's flower baby is a bit magical if you ask me lol

That is a good point though

[azure bay]

Or, as I'm going to say, it could be a cruel metaphor

[sage token]

Yup, I've heard that as well

[azure bay]

Don't like this way tho °ω°

[sage token]

I like the idea that reality is just warped around the Lake. Things work differently there. Like finding a key in a shrimp.

[floral mauve]

true

though I think it kinda extended further

actually

I dont think Lake is the only place that allows to have magic

or some sort of magic

[sage token]

True. We got a beard that turned into a crow.

[floral mauve]

Its not a dark version of Hogwarts

[azure bay]

I think the Paradox short illustrates well media differences affecting the surroundings

[sage token]

My phones about to die but I'll be back

[azure bay]

Sometimes there's a fish in the drawer indeed

But other times you just open a globe without locating a key and solving puzzles

Or there are 3 vials instead of 1

[sage token]

Oh that's true!

[fossil lily]

so i have a question, as we all know laura visited cabin with harvey , (harvey's box + the lake) then how did she managed to get there like we saw in season that the room have no door what is the point of the room? ( although I know laura can escape from the window)

[covert wyvern]

One could argue we play through a memory not a real event; there's no need for a door bc in the memory she doesn't leave the room.

[azure bay]

@fossil lily The doors or lackthere off are not an indicator of memories. Arles is a memory and it has doors, Case 23 is not (as many believe) and it has none in 2 whole chapters

I'd rather say, it's for some gameplay reason

[covert wyvern]

Ye I think that's a reasonable take

[royal notch]

@azure bay i got to know only yesterday about your videos, i just wanted to let you know that those are amazing, congrats! 👍There's just a little point (quite literally) that i don't understand, may i discuss it with you when you're free?

[azure bay]

Yeah, of course

Even criticize it

[royal notch]

I found both really well diven and have nothing to say about them, or better, the few things i wanted to say i wrote them in your form. There's just a statement that left me insecure. Around "17:49" of the 1° video, you said that the figure out of the window during winter was a corrupted soul. How could you tell that?

[rare drum]

well the corrupted souls just sorta look like
vibrating fuzzy black shadow-looking figure
i guess you technically can't be 100% certain but i feel like you could just assume it is

and I think it's sort of a recurring think with the character seeing them in the window every seasonish

of course, I'm not nowherecrafter so they might have a more specific and in depth reason ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[azure bay]

Basically what @rare drum said. My reasoning is more probability-oriented. If something's seen outside the window and it's twitching and we saw nothing else fitting that description in 7 years, the probability of it being a CS over something unknown is high

I thought you had questions concerning pt1b 😄
This is the one hard to comprehend despite all my effort

[royal notch]

I admit it, yesterday i watched that video rough 5 times to get it fully, stopping like every second to follow the cube maps , but in the end i think i managed to understand the on-going of every possibility (sorry for replying this late but Discord refuses to notify me).

[azure bay]

any feedback to make it more accessible?

[royal notch]

Those graphs are fantastic, i don't think i'd been able to understand anything without it; perhaps make them a bit slower, i guess. 👍

[azure bay]

didn't you feel like getting too much information?

[royal notch]

No, I think it was well dispensed through the video.

But that's me, and i already had my thoughts in the past.

[azure bay]

maybe video as a whole was too much and would do better if sliced into 2-3 parts?

[royal notch]

I honestly enjoyed it as a whole. I thought that too when i saw the duration of the video, but after seeing it i changed my mind.

The way you connected "seasons" and "the lake" required those connections in my opinion.

[azure bay]

Can you give an axample?

Of such connections

[royal notch]

Well, the necessity to hypothesize Harvey's presence or absence at the cabin becomes relevant for Laura's fate, and even that could be caused by Laura's alterations in the past. This is an example, but basically these connections cover almost all the duration of the video, there's no exact time-span.

[azure bay]

Let's say, I separate The Lake+HB from Seasons would it be ok?

[royal notch]

I don't think so, because the events of "seasons" depends by the events of "the lake" in almost all the time-lines branches. As I already said, I prefer it as a whole, but I don't know what a new-arrived can think about it.

[manic brook]

Do we think that the seamonster in the minigame on the RL website is canon

[floral mauve]

have u played The cave?

[manic brook]

Yes but its been a while

[azure bay]

They have not to just play The Cave

But get a specific tideous achievement

[floral mauve]

right

[manic brook]

ohh

I'll try to find it?

[floral mauve]

good

it contains some insights for the next game after tpw

[manic brook]

i remember a big scary fish but idk if that is the achievement and if it is i wouldnt consider that a sea monster per se

[azure bay]

Check out Rusty Lake sights while you're on the sub

[manic brook]

?

[azure bay]

Submarine

And points of interest on the map

[astral frost]

Hi I'm replaying all the games before tpw release, and I was wondering

Are the timeline on the wiki created by the devs?

or fanmade?

[azure bay]

the last official timeline featured nothing beyond Theatre

[astral frost]

this one right?

[azure bay]

yeah

[astral frost]

perfect

just noticed that dashed line between the first 2 chapters of Case 23 and Theatre

[floral mauve]

Sus

[astral frost]

I'll be thinking about that

[astral frost]

Just finished Harvey's Box again and I wanted to share a stupid idea (even if it can't be true)

at the end of the game, you have to defeat this CS with fireflies

I searched on the internet and I discovered this: https://phys.org/news/2018-08-fireflies-awful.html

if I didn't know that Mr Bat was an Animal during that period (as we see in Cave, 1972), I would say it was Mr Bat

[floral mauve]

interesting

[azure bay]

objection!

[floral mauve]

Mr bat's state is quite sus

he is somehow in between

I cant tell whether he is a well trained animal or asura

maybe asura

[azure bay]

he wears clothes

[floral mauve]

i know

but he behaves like bat rather than a rational human being

[azure bay]

he's too big for a bat in Hotel

[astral frost]

in Hotel he's clearly an Asura

like Mr Frog and Harvey

[floral mauve]

then what happened in day 3 night

or in the cave

maybe he was a psychopath then got enlightened

[azure bay]

@astral frost, @floral mauve Until we get a solid precedent of asura turning into an animal on a whim, I strongly suggest you considering the bat in The Cave just an asset reuse. Because the evidence we have so far is strongly debatable. (But as soon as we get something substantial I'll be the 1st to reconsider it)

[astral frost]

you're right

[floral mauve]

right

[floral mauve]

but is this possible

I mean there isnt much of a restriction of becoming asura

[azure bay]

if we trust testimony, both Bat and Toad used to be humans before working for Owl

assuming he was the one to enlighten them isn't a huge leap to make

he could have some elixir reserve for such cases

for people he finds useful

[floral mauve]

so its possible

[astral frost]

they could also had been just Animals before

such as Harvey

he existed as an Animal since Paradise events

[azure bay]

people say, the devs said, they used to be humans

[astral frost]

oh ok

[azure bay]

and I find that less likely in general. We have only Harvey who's already quite an exceptional bird against a regular dog having no visible transformations after consuming elixir

[astral frost]

right right

[royal notch]

After a year of carelessness for Rusty Lake, today i woke up with a question in mind without any evident reason: if we assume that the Lake is the hell as samskrit culture states, then why the corrupted souls hid at its bottom on their own?

[delicate atlas]

I don't think they do

Some raom on land

Or in cities

Or in forests

Etc.

While some do be stuck in the lake's bottom

To me they seem imprisoned maybe

By Mr. Owl or something

That's just a random thought based on no evidence

[floral mauve]

I doubt so otherwise he won’t refer them as problems

So it’s either CS’s own trait or lake did it

[delicate atlas]

I see

[azure bay]

Either nowhere to go or something attracts them there

[astral frost]

finished again Paradox, I got 2 theories I'd never thought about

1-why there's that scene at the end of Chapter 2 (Dale killing Laura, which didn't make sense to me until now)
2-when Paradox is set

1-In Chapter 2, Dale finally understands he's Corrupted. Meeting Laura and Mr Owl made him understand only one between Laura and Dale will survive (Laura says: "one of us will die, the other one will be enlightened... please, make the right choice Dale") + Meeting Mr Owl made him realize the only way to escape that "mind loop" is facing his Corrupted Soul (Mr Owl, at the end of his monologue, says: "Now, continue your journey, and face your Corrupted Soul!").
So Dale comes to the conclusion of killing Laura in order to live and escape the Corruption state (even if he instantly learns that isn't the right choice)

[delicate atlas]

2- is that why mr. Rabbut did what he did?

[astral frost]

2-that makes me think Paradox is set almost in the end of Dale's journey to the surface of the Lake. His memories/mind are completely fucked up and his Corruption is complete (Mr Owl says him that facing his Corrupted Soul is the last step on the journey)

[astral frost]

Can't say exactly why Mr Rabbit killed Dale's parents, because it seems he thought that massacre would have saved him from Corruption. BUT I'm not so sure if he was still Corrupted or he was already become a Human again in 1939 (Birthday is not a reliable memory)

Maybe we'll discover some relation between Vandermeer family and David Eilander in the next games

[azure bay]

Edd, did you get secret endings of Paradox?

[astral frost]

yep

both of them

[delicate atlas]

I see

[azure bay]

ok, then I have to know more about your theory

[floral mauve]

Hemmm

[azure bay]

please, let me hear him out 1st

[floral mauve]

Ok

I never said a thing

[azure bay]

just in case

[floral mauve]

Agree

Basically a full mark on the mark scheme that

[azure bay]

it's personal. No one before was able to preserve a "Paradox is in the end" theory long enough to tell everything about it

so

can you start from the beginning what Paradox is?

when does it happen, where does it happen, what happens and why?

[astral frost]

First, we all know Paradox is sort of a "loop" inside Dale's head. Many of the dialogues between Dale, Mr Owl and Mr Crow let us think that.

do you agree?

[azure bay]

let's suppose, I know nothing

[astral frost]

Dale always wakes up in that room, and he always wants to escape it. He performs a series of actions in order to open that door and to understand where he is. He always ends to the shore of the Lake, watching Laura being killed by a Corrupted Soul. Then Laura disappears and a Black Cube appears, revealing Dale isn't escaped yet.

[azure bay]

ok, that's a loop

what about it being in his head?

[astral frost]

just a moment

Dale lives those events repeatedly: escaping from the room, but not being able to reach Laura before her death (Laura became a real obsession for Dale after Case 23 started, according to Dale's mental ilnesses report)

[astral frost]

About this, listen to this dialogue https://youtu.be/9ZXFaaQJb0c?t=840

"you can't escape the boundaries of your mind" --> Dale needs to "do something more" to escape that loop

The "Chapter 1" and "Film" loops are total failures. Dale can't understand what really happened, and he can only watch Laura being killed and the loop starting again

What's more, about the different forms assumed by Dale in Paradox: they are created by his mind. During a loop, he looks like the usual RL characters; during another one, he looks like a real person; then a half corrupted-half man, then an old hanged man, then a demigod (or a man with a deer face)

The point is: as in many narrations where the protagonist is stuck in a loop, he can meet other versions of himself, slightly different from him. BUT we always follow the events about "our" Dale

and our Dale won't escape the loop until he makes "the right choices"

for that reason, I think Dale leaves some hints behind to help the next Dale reaching the solution to the Paradox (for example "Don't drink the blue/red vial" signed by D. who is, of course, one of the previous Dales)

this is my definition of Paradox

[azure bay]

any other indications of "when"?

[astral frost]

and also, in the beginning of Chapter 2, Mr Crow says: "go deeper into your mind" while talking with Dale

[astral frost]

nothing but deductions, since the only "accurate" indication is Dale riding the elevator in one of the 2 endings

can I continue with the second part?

[azure bay]

yeah, go on

[astral frost]

ok, so let's assume Dale didn't understand anything during Chapter 1 and Film loops (which are pretty similar - red vial and Dale watching Laura being killed)

after many loops, Dale starts to go "deeper in his mind" (as Mr Crow says him in the beginning of Chapter 2). He starts reflecting more about his Past, Present and Future. His minds starts working more and differently from the previous loops. So Chapter 2 begins

Mr Crow guides Dale on reflecting on the Past, Present and Future, where Dale meets different characters

Past: Dale lives the murder of his parents again (notice that he's not "facing his demons" or "balancing the substance of his past life" as in Birthday)
Present: Mr Crow diagnoses many mental illnesses to Dale (traumas from the past, phobias and obsession with Case 23)
Future: Dale meets an old Laura who tells him the truth. "One of us will live, the other one will die". Dale didn't know that until now

in the end, Dale accumulated many infos, and Mr Owl shows itself

Mr Owl: "My time is limited. I need a successor, the Ruler of the Lake. Dale, continue your journey, and face your Corrupted Soul!"

So Dale has 2 main infos now:
-Facing his Corrupted Soul is the way for Dale to escape the loop and become the Ruler of the Lake.
-Dale's fate is linked to Laura. As Laura said, one will die, the other one will find enlightenment

Dale's deduction is: facing my Corrupted Soul means I need to be the one to kill Laura, in order to escape this loop

So Dale reaches Laura and he kills her (while a Dale's Human iteration is watching), BUT this isn't the right choice.

the only 2 ways to stop the loop are:
-Dale dies, so Laura will live again (probably she will become Human again - in the secret youtube scene, Laura's Cube turns white)
-Dale continues his journey with the golden cube, as predicted by Mr Owl

done!

[azure bay]

ok

actually, it turned out to be more similar to my own conclusions than I thought

[astral frost]

big brain time

[floral mauve]

I sense comradeship

[astral frost]

wait, just a marginal note

in Paradox, Dale is totally Corrupted (he's not flickering anymore like the previous Cube Escape games). In some loops it is less evident (like in Chapter 1 or Film, when Dale becomes Corrupted for a moment while looking into the glass), in some other it is more (as in Chapter 2, when he becomes totally black and he reaches Laura as a Corrupted Souls)

that makes me think we are almost at the end of Dale's journey (aka he's about to reach the Hotel)

ALSO, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING

in Chapter 2, Dale meets Mr Owl

The first thing Mr Owl says to Dale is: "Dale, we meet again. Finding your Corrupted Soul is your final test"

[azure bay]

there are some things I'd like to highlight

[astral frost]

yep

[azure bay]

1. сh1 ending is ch2 beginning. Ch2 ending is the movie beginning

what do you think about this?

[astral frost]

agree

in fact, I said Dale doesn't make the right choice even in Chapter 2

he's still trapped in the loop