Did they not blur out your username?
#GrubStomper29's OpenGL Sandbox
plain mantle
gilded shell
no
plain mantle
I can't watch it rn
gilded shell
he pretty much showed one of demon’s reddit comments
plain mantle
But yeah if I was showing discord messages I would blur it out
gilded shell
actually everything he said was in the comment. Out of context or not, it was all factually correct i suppose
I’ll chalk it up to a research error; anything to defend the guy calling his game “AgarthaCraft”
kind sparrow
It's not insulting it was just part of a discussion about Vulkan being a bad first graphics API, I didn't mean to imply that Vulkan was impossible in general
The context was about learning graphics programming via Vulkan
plain mantle
I'm slowly becoming the joker and moving towards the opinion that actually directx 9 is the one true graphics api
kind sparrow
Hahah
night shoal
these kind of videos are absolutely stupid
i just watched 5mins of it
but so are all the things he mentioned in the first 5mins
people need to get out of tutorial/youtube/reddit hell
gilded shell
i see
plain mantle
After having watched it, you should have known better than to post on reddit 
kind sparrow
Very true lol
gilded shell
tmrw, Godwilling, ill spend ~3 hours searching for oob or ub
quick question though, wouldnt the error message mention oob if the error was oob?
kind sparrow
It's probably not OOB access
I mentioned that option because the secondary thing it does is clear buffers to a weird value
Which you can just clear to that value manually with glClearNamedBufferSubData or whatever it's called
gilded shell
what do you think it is? I really have no clue where to start looking
other than going thru the trouble of getting rd to work
kind sparrow
The idea is to try and get your system to ingest bad values so that you can repro the bug on your machine
RD doesn't really help with sync issues
kind sparrow
I missed the issue, what actually happens
gilded shell
.
the error doesnt happen for me
thats pretty much the full extent of what we know
gilded shell
debug
gilded shell
if you have no clue then i must truly be in trouble
plain mantle
I may not be the super genius you take me for
gilded shell
still
plain mantle
I'm just really persistent
gilded shell
Ignore it for now I guess until more people report it
im not a big fan of that option
@kind sparrow if youre on windows you could try this out if you want
Jake and I worked it into a compilable state a few days ago
plain mantle
You might want to just make a precompiled version to make it easier for people
gilded shell
i dont have an exe signing cert
gilded shell
i thought windows stops you if the exe isnt signed
kind sparrow
No
plain mantle
It might warn you
night shoal
you could check if you download the exe if its blocked, by rightclicking it -> properties -> "Blocked" -> Unblock, if its blocked it may or may not run properly
plain mantle
but outright stopping you would be insane
plain mantle
I kinda need it for ASO lol
gilded shell
alright
night shoal
move in with jake, grubbi
plain mantle
Come to Canada yeah
night shoal
Canada will also soon join the EU
gilded shell
i dont think id like it there
plain mantle
Why not?
gilded shell
from what ive seen and heard, its about 5 cities and then uninhabitable wasteland
most geographically literate american highschooler
plain mantle
Nah its quite nice actually, we have nice nature
gilded shell
natures always a plus
but we cant be talking about this
we gotta talk about this bug
kind sparrow
Do you have integrated graphics on your computer
gilded shell
nah
gilded shell
nah
i do have another cpu that does have igpu
but cpu swap for this would be insane
plain mantle
Maybe not worth repasting yeah
I have extra machines that I cobble together for cheap, really handy for this kind of stuff
gilded shell
what about a different driver?
plain mantle
Yeah you could try that
kind sparrow
Yeah I have my main win10 desktop with an Nvidia card and then my Linux laptop on mesa integrated graphics, gives me a lot of coverage for this kind of thing
Stupid question but you do have your debug callback set up right
plain mantle
It looked correct to me
gilded shell
yeah
kind sparrow
Crashing on mapping a buffer is the kind of thing that the debug should tell you about
gilded shell
iirc synchronous is enabled
kind sparrow
Do you have a memory sanitizer
You could be corrupting the heap and smashing the user mode driver
plain mantle
yeah synchronous was definetly enabled
gilded shell
i couldnt tell you what that even is
plain mantle
Oh one more thing to check
the compiler version
This is one more reason to ship binaries
gilded shell
i see
plain mantle
Well if they are different
there could be UB that shows up in one and not the other
kind sparrow
I don't think that's an issue here
gilded shell
i could check tmrw morning
kind sparrow
An API call is a foreign function call regardless of compiler and the driver is already compiled
gilded shell
thats true
kind sparrow
Are you using visual studio
gilded shell
yes
kind sparrow
Turn on asan
It might be tough to get through the memory errors that your libraries have like glfw but if you can then it'll tell you if you're doing anything abhorrent with memory
This is why I like Linux for this since it has valgrind
kind sparrow
Basically you are writing off the end of a buffer somewhere far enough that you're corrupting memory allocated by the driver
The checks on validating the API usage can't catch that
kind sparrow
Yeah
gilded shell
or am i misinterpreting the meaning of oob 
kind sparrow
Well
The OOB that RD catches is out of bounds access of mapped pointers specifically
This could be anywhere though not just in GL usage
One thing you can do is go change every std::vector [] access to .at()
That will bounds check everything
gilded shell
i see
i believe i already use .at for my maps because i couldnt type to save my life
kind sparrow
It's not a risk for maps
gilded shell
ah yeah they zero init everything i think
kind sparrow
It's for std::vector because its operator[] is a raw unchecked array access
map will never let you access oob
gilded shell
i wonder if i couldve passed a wrong size to a gl function?
kind sparrow
Possible
gilded shell
imo thats more likely
i dont think i use vectors very often in the main loop
@plain mantle could you do me a huge favor and try disabling the “update view frustum” setting on the imgui window and see if that helps
plain mantle
Yeah I'll do it in a little bit
gilded shell
Yeah I'll do it in a little bit
any luck?
gilded shell
I just tried that older sponza on the oldest gpu driver I could find and didn't experience the issue
gilded shell
Address sanitizer doesn't report anything
gilded shell
i also skimmed thru most of my code and didnt find any glaring issues
night shoal
what is the current problem?
gilded shell
Jake is running it on his machine and this happens
we think its oob stuff but address sanitizer isn't reporting anything wrong
night shoal
is your github repo up2date so that i could just clone and run?
gilded shell
on windows, yeah
besides some minor changes
see if you can run it with address sanitizer on
that hasnt been ennabled on the repo yet
night shoal
latest commit is 4 days ago though
hmm and i have to copy some model in or something?
ah dreaded working dir nonsense
gilded shell
just drop this in the assets folder @night shoal
night shoal
gilded shell
is mem sanitizer on
gilded shell
interesting
gilded shell
okay
plain mantle
Without the view frustum update I get the crash slightly before
turning on asan
Ok same place with asan
plain mantle
@gilded shell How many monitors you have?
gilded shell
1
plain mantle
I think I've figured out how to trigger the crash
night shoal
im also on 1 monitor only
plain mantle
If I click into discord on the other monitor then go back it crashes
plain mantle
Here is my hypothesis, based on where the crash is
One of your indirect draw commands is reading past the end of the vertex or index buffer
Like why are you uploading a default initialized draw command in there cpp SceneObject::IndirectDraw indirectDraw{}; void* map{ glMapNamedBuffer(sceneObject.mIndirectDrawBuffer, GL_WRITE_ONLY) }; std::memcpy(map, &indirectDraw, sizeof(SceneObject::IndirectDraw)); glUnmapNamedBuffer(sceneObject.mIndirectDrawBuffer);
In the case that its a compiler thing, this is the exe that was produced
gilded shell
Like why are you uploading a default initialized draw command in there ```cpp
...
the compute cluster batcher writes to it
night shoal
ah i can provide the compiler versions too if that helps
VS 2022 Professional Preview 17.13.0 Preview 2.1
gilded shell
thanks guys i’ll see what i can do
plain mantle
I'm on 17.12.4
gilded shell
@plain mantle have you tried turning sanitization on
plain mantle
I did
no change
Here's what I suggest, ignore the problem for now, sooner or later the UB will manifest on your machine, you can tackle it then
night shoal
have you tried clean removing the gpu driver and just install 566.xx (or the studio driver)
gilded shell
nah i just went to the oldest driver on the nv website
gilded shell
Here's what I suggest, ignore the problem for now, sooner or later the UB will m...
what if it never does
plain mantle
Then you do nothing
If someone else's thing crashes then you can look at it again
but so far its just me
plain mantle
Nah only me
night shoal
@gilded shell if you have a 2nd monitor or if you can grab a 2nd one, to see if you can trigger that beehaviour then you might be able to do something about it
gilded shell
i dont have the right cable for that, so that’s also a wild option
night shoal
maybe one of your friends has the right cable and could help you out
gilded shell
we’ll just say jake’s pcie has a lane that malfunctions but only for this project
night shoal
: )
kind sparrow
haven't seen lost world
steven spielberg movies are cool though
have you seen Close Encounters
gilded shell
nah
gilded shell
Jurassic World is also pretty good
park iii and all the jurassic world sequels can be skipped though, theyre pretty lame
iii has spinosaurus though, greatest dinosaur to ever live
gilded shell
Adding a view id to my clusters—I've conviniently left these paddings here, so sizing shouldn't be an issue like last time
I really should not have 5 copies of the same struct across several cpp files
per view, I need:
Frustum viewFrustum
mat4 view
mat4 proj
vec4 cameraPos
sampler2D hbz (goodness I need an hbz per view)
float zNear
where frustum is currently 6 vec4s but could be 5
I wonder how gl will pad that
west trail
why camera pos is vec4
gilded shell
trying to get vec3s working in a glsl struct is pain
west trail
not really, just alignas(16) and it works most of the time
you can pad that depending on your frustum struct
gilded shell
still I have been advised by both the opengl wiki and iirc demongod to avoid vec3s
since all of the time is a lot better than most of the time
anyways I've never dealt with struct padding. I wonder if I need to pad that like 6 vec4s or if them being in a struct makes it different
LOL I forgot I did this
@night shoal how's the readme coming along in your opinion https://github.com/GrumStomper29/OpenGL-Sandbox
I'm thinking about sticking to in-code credits for smaller portions of code, e.g. that single debug output function being written by fendevel. Is this kosher?
west trail
why dependencies are marked as todo
night shoal
ye perhaps a typo 🙂
night shoal
gilded shell
yeah
gilded shell
I'm thinking about sticking to in-code credits for smaller portions of code, e.g...
?
night shoal
thats totally up to you
you are free to do anything you like
ive seen people giving credit in code with a comment to some algo they found on stackoverflow or on some blog of someone
gilded shell
lol
I need to credit some of yall too
lvrsri and jasmine for nanitisms
lukasino a bit too
and probably deccer and demon for helpful guidance
“This project was made possible using code from:
…
and mentorship from:
…”
haughty shoal
I added that section my self today, still in a branch https://github.com/btipling/Rosy/blob/e32e236e47b385a651ce2d732d2cfe00ba80e4c9/CREDITS.md
junior sparrow
Adding a view id to my clusters—I've conviniently left these paddings here, so s...
bit confused why you want to add view id?
having transform index and material index is cursed also
night shoal
i have this
junior sparrow
I should give some credits too
gilded shell
having transform index and material index is cursed also
the alternative is having an index for every transform that ISNT the clusters
but i figured the vice versa would be less memory intensive
junior sparrow
should go to mesh struct?
gilded shell
all jokes aside it works and its simple
memory usage isnt much of a concern in this project so far
junior sparrow
it works but I cry in VRAM usage. In my test scene I have 1.2GB VRAM usage
junior sparrow
7**3
gilded shell
mine is one 🫠
i can always optimize for memory later
(never)
but in reality i want lightmaps so i probably have to at some point
junior sparrow
mine is one 🫠
oh 💀
the textures is using 90% of your VRAM there
I remember them being 923MB something like that
got it down to 160MB and then texture streaming which cut it 10MB
gilded shell
i have this
so youre saying if im funny enough, i can add your project to my portfolio
night shoal
im not sure, the funny moments all happen accidentally
kind sparrow
still I have been advised by both the opengl wiki and iirc demongod to avoid vec...
Avoid them in types that are explicitly meant to represent buffer structure, but don't make your engine types vec4 because of that
You certainly can just use vec3 with alignas or manual padding btw it's just my personal preference to not
gilded shell
yeah i think vec4 will just be easier
plain mantle
I prefer to use the vec4 for buffers (over alignment) because you can pack something in the w component
night shoal
Adding a view id to my clusters—I've conviniently left these paddings here, so s...
im also using uint32_t et al and not use the types from the gl header
gilded shell
im also using uint32_t et al and not use the types from the gl header
why?
haughty shoal
I don't like the gl types because they start propagating elsewhere in the app, where do you draw the line
night shoal
why?
because i dont have to use those, and leak them into any other thing
but if that cluster type lives in that part where everything glThisAndThat lives then its also fine
haughty shoal
yeah when I didn't know anything I was using gl types all over my app
it was gross
night shoal
it doesnt really matter in the end anyway
haughty shoal
I just had to import gl everywhere, where it made no sense to
night shoal
hehe
haughty shoal
it's all uint32_t and float now
west trail
I use std::uint 
kind sparrow
If you use my superior code architecture strategy then you don't leak anything
haughty shoal
everytime I see your code I'm jealous
it's always great code
you're not even a software engineer for a living right
kind sparrow
There are tradeoffs that aren't always visible in small snippers
No I'm not although my programming background is extensive
I was a CS major for my first 1.5 years in school and I took a computer engineering minor
haughty shoal
maybe having a job writing code ruins us
because we're always being forced to write shit code to meet deadlines our standards drop
kind sparrow
I think the bigger factor is just that I take maximum advantage of not being beholden to any other contributors
haughty shoal
there's that too
kind sparrow
I think if you work a pro software job your instinct is always to have things be more structured
Whereas I just literally write what is most immediately convenient for myself without really worrying about extensibility or maintainability
haughty shoal
seems like extensible and maintainable code to me idk
kind sparrow
It is at a more macro scale of like "I could just throw away these 5k lines of code and rewrite it without touching anything else" but not as much on the micro scale maybe
Idk
It's certainly good enough for my purposes on the micro scale
The other thing is my projects are all driven by very specific technical obsessions that drive my design decisions so I'm always on a bright straight line path towards some deep feature
gilded shell
If you use my superior code architecture strategy then you don't leak anything
it sounds a lot like ecs
kind sparrow
I was referring to my strategy of basically doing encapsulation at the translation unit level
So my header file contains purely the interface rather than the traditional strategy of the header containing the private implementation details too
gilded shell
oh interesting
kind sparrow
Normally if you want to write some graphics system in class form you'd need to either store pointers to incomplete types C-style or you'd need to include OpenGL stuff into what should be a public header
Instead I just have some black box free functions and a public component type that acts as an interface
And then behind the scenes in the source file I do arbitrary GL stuff and it stays nicely contained
gilded shell
i think im picking up what youre putting down
basically your header file abstracts the actual content of whatever its implementing?
kind sparrow
Here's the interface for my ground clutter system
The component is in another header
This is just the header that tells the engine what to call, the "user" (the game) provides the actual implementation in the game renderer folder
The implementation is just like 2000 lines of random stuff and raw GL code
In this case what I do is I have the game apply the game-visible Clutter component and then the system adds its own component in addition to that one which contains all the private GL BS
gilded shell
And this is a huge help to development?
kind sparrow
For me personally yes
Because I'm always implementing super specialized systems that have the potential to get entangled with other stuff
This basically gives me the maximum leeway to write those systems without too much cross coupling
The cross coupling that does exist is basically purely data-oriented
Or perhaps implicit coupling in terms of update order
So you quite literally can just throw away like thousands of lines of code at once without affecting anything else
The tradeoff I guess is that it doesn't offer any particular structure internal to those units, those have the potential to get get arbitrarily ugly although for my purposes that hasn't happened too much
Often they're small, the really complex ones that would hurt to have to drastically refactor internally are the tree system I just worked on, and the multiplayer server system
gilded shell
this is a very appealing design method
kind sparrow
maybe having a job writing code ruins us
Oh yeah, the other thing is just that at this point I have more experience writing shitty NIH games from scratch than I do any other SW experience, including SW internships I've had and the code I do write day to day
So all my programming methodologies are sort of centered around it
Data oriented is the name of the game
One thing I want to do is figure out how I'd apply this strategy if I weren't using EnTT, since currently it relies heavily on EnTT's magical ability to just slap components onto entities completely dynamically
Not that I'm not going to continue using EnTT but I feel like it would cement the strategy more generally if I knew how I'd tackle it without
haughty shoal
nice
gilded shell
@plain mantle i think id rather learn piano quite honestly
kind sparrow
Vs guitar?
plain mantle
Guitar is real fun
haughty shoal
duolingo sells a learning piano
kind sparrow
Guitar depends on your genre of choice
kind sparrow
I knew a little guitar that my guitarist had taught me when I was in metal bands but I never really took off with it until I started listening to classic country stuff which is way easier to play, and then it was much easier to make progress
gilded shell
only issue is i have no room for a keyboard since my room is occupied by my huge drumset
kind sparrow
They don't take much space
plain mantle
Guitar is kinda nice because you don't need electricity
Although its nice with electricity too
gilded shell
i see
plain mantle
DMB stuff is mostly acoustic no?
gilded shell
yeah but the amount of years theyve had a keyboard player is probably greater than the amount they havent
between Butch Taylor, Buddy Strong, and Peter Griesar
They had this song lead by piano rather than guitar and it was very good https://youtube.com/watch?v=VKle47R21Z8
stuff like this and chick corea make me sway towards keys
gilded shell
dont think i hve
plain mantle
Sick keyboards
gilded shell
I recognize this
but from where 🤔
oh we were talking about canada earlier? i saw this thing
gilded shell
In this case what I do is I have the game apply the game-visible Clutter compone...
I wonder how that’s laid out in memory
gilded shell
if it works it works
something i dont understand is people wanting their ecs components in continuous arrays for better cache hits
i imagine any task you perform on a single component would already be consuming the tiny amount of cache space?
plain mantle
i imagine any task you perform on a single component would already be consuming ...
The idea is not to perform an operation on a single component
What you wanna do is process a bunch of ents at once with the same type of component
haughty shoal
What you wanna do is process a bunch of ents at once with the same type of compo...
do you have components that you only put on Luis?
plain mantle
do you have components that you only put on Luis?
A few, although they could theoretically go on any entity
Actually the main one is character_input_handler
but technically I suppose I could have that on multiple ents, if they sourced from different controllers
haughty shoal
does the leviathan have components that only go on it?
plain mantle
Leviathan is multiple ents lol
It has the "boss" component, but that will go on others eventually
kind sparrow
i imagine any task you perform on a single component would already be consuming ...
ECS systems iterate over every component in that view
So contiguity is definitely good for performance
haughty shoal
I don't have a multi component rule, I'm using flecs to be the one place all my game play goes, I am fine to just have components that are just on one entity personally, I don't want to divide up gameplay code between flecs and non-flecs
that's the plan anyway idk
plain mantle
I don't have a multi component rule, I'm using flecs to be the one place all my ...
Its not a rule, but you are definetly gonna end up with tons of components that are attached to hundreds if not thousands of entities
such as transform, mesh, collider, etc
haughty shoal
right
kind sparrow
Yeah it's not a rule I have a number that are only attached to one
20% of your components will be on a large number of entities and the rest will only be on a few
But the big perf threats and wins happen on the numerous ones
gilded shell
@night shoal can you explain the grubbi nickname to me
is it like grubby but with an i for some reason? why?
kind sparrow
Because German
night shoal
<@194502965749350400> can you explain the grubbi nickname to me
its a short version of grubstomper, grubbi 🙂
i guess you could write it as grubby too but that is not as cool as grubbi
gilded shell
Let us begin
I need batch the cluster buffers per view
I realize I can do this really easily by duplicating each cluster sequentially for each view
so,
cluster0_view0, cluster0_view1, cluster1_view0, cluster1_view0
then the draw batcher will write those out to the various view indirect draw buffers
im not fully sure how to explain it but I think this interleaved layout could help performance too
each view will have its own indirect draw buffer
so the variance in atomic write targets could mean less locked threads in my theory
@spring kelp How do you determine the size of the meshlet batch output index buffers? I just statically set mine to however many indices the entire scene contains, but I imagine this scales very poorly
spring kelp
<@145540119141679105> How do you determine the size of the meshlet batch output ...
I would avoid writing out indices. It's pretty slow.
But also just hardcode the buffer size at startup.
Users of my bevy plugin have to specify the buffer size when adding the plugin
gilded shell
I see
gilded shell
I would avoid writing out indices. It's pretty slow.
is that not what you do?
I must now traverse the deepest depths of hell that is model.cpp
spring kelp
is that not what you do?
I don't do it anymore. Culling outputs a list of clusters to rasterize, and then:
- For hardware raster, I do a single indirect draw with 128 triangles * cluster count
- For software raster, it's an indirect dispatch with cluster count workgroups, 1 WG per cluster
gilded shell
I see
gilded shell
my laziness is a trait i must cull
haughty shoal
get to work 
gilded shell
@plain mantle @kind sparrow i want what this guys having https://youtu.be/CTvlczJodrc?si=OeIFMahale7omuvL
kind sparrow
Lmao
haughty shoal
I want those energy levels
maybe I need to switch up my exercise routine to include headstands
on a bare floor?
idk about this
oh he's using rings nm
I have rings
gilded shell
each view needs its own output IndirectDrawBuffer + ibo for opaque and blended
i dont think some array of arrays magic is the solution
or maybe it is :think:
theres no pointers and i dont see how i could dynamically point to an arbitrary ibo
so ig ill just have a single ibo with length numIndices * viewCount
wow I just mixed numFoo and fooCount in the same sentence
night shoal
better than fooFoo and numCount
haughty shoal
why does each view need its own buffer, what is a "view " in your engine?
kind sparrow
Probably talking about culling
You basically need a separate draw buffer for each
Since two people looking in opposite directions are basically seeing different scenes
haughty shoal
oh is this like a split screen coop?
night shoal
per shadow cascade
kind sparrow
I don't think so but e.g. shadow rendering or picture-in-picture or reflections have different viewpoints
haughty shoal
I see, I think I would have one indirect buffer and use offsets per view I guess, I am already using a lot of offsets
but it's different in vk as we do have pointers
night shoal
vulkan or not doesnt really matter methinks
gilded shell
I see, I think I would have one indirect buffer and use offsets per view I guess...
I probably cvould do that
night shoal
you just fill your indirect buffer per whatever is visible in the cascade, and cull it accordingly as if you render your world wiothout shadows
gilded shell
i forget if glDrawElementsIndirect has a buffer offset
haughty shoal
pointers are really nice, renderdoc doesn't know what an index means, but it knows what a pointer is, so just even the better debugging experience is really nice
night shoal
this is just implementation detail but you use it the same way
haughty shoal
it's the difference between a number you don't know if it is right or not, vs you have direct knowledge in renderdoc that the connection is correct
night shoal
there is probably some gl_Layer thing you can do as an optimization
kind sparrow
Indirect buffers are cheap memory wise, they should be able to mostly refer to the same scene data
So it should be low overhead
gilded shell
lets all hold our horses here
I havent actually implemented the different output buffers, so all 5 views are attempting to atomicAdd to the same buffer which I imagine is the main bottleneck
kind sparrow
Give each one a separate count
gilded shell
that is the plan
kind sparrow
Don't you need to identify the segments of the buffer for different cameras anyways
kind sparrow
That's why I don't write any
gilded shell
That's why I don't write any
except for your systems and subsystems?
kind sparrow
No I just don't have any classes in my project
kind sparrow
No
Actually wait no I needed to make 3 or 4 because the Jolt engine uses interfaces, and I think I have one or two small container types that basically just wrap std::vector but beyond that no
Not in my engine or game code apart from physics
haughty shoal
I call this C+ and it is what I do too
no classes
not a single one
I do put functions in my struct
they are basically all public member objects with no builtin raii or constructors/destructors/move/copy stuff
no inheritance, vtables all that stuff, you can still use templates
I think don't actually do this though, use classes
unless you have a good reason for not, which I am not sure there is one
it is working for me though for now
I think it is silly and the more I use C++ libraries with RAII the more I think I am missing out tbh
feels silly to constrain my C++ to like 10% of it what it offers
night shoal
c pipi is just humunculus
haughty shoal
I'm fully dedicated to C++ long term I have written so much code I am probably C++ for life now
so I need to get with the program
night shoal
and you never use all the features of a language all at the same time at all times, you also dont have to use everything a language has to offer
haughty shoal
yeah but like classes are foundational
night shoal
classes are fine if you want to use them, they just come with a bit of glue you have to rember
haughty shoal
I don't want to
but maybe I do
I am always so glad to have a type with RAII these days where I am like, oh that will just go out of scope
fml
sorry to spam your thread
night shoal
its wild how frequent discord is spitting out updates over the past weeks
west trail
Just don't update, it's probably another silly UI update that offsets something for the exact amount of pixels needed for the eye to notice, but not for the brain to recognize
haughty shoal
it's a rather nice new feature they added actually
click on a user and click the three dots
west trail
Ignoring, we don't need these half-measures.I just ban everybody
kind sparrow
and I imagine you dont put functions inside your structs?
No I don't
But I do put STL types and stuff in them
So they're not completely C-style pod they're just rule of 0
If I didn't have the STL I'd wrote classes for containers, they're useful there
I just don't write containers myself in most cases
gilded shell
sorry to spam your thread
youre good
west trail
So they're not completely C-style pod they're just rule of 0
Hopefully one day we will be able to see your majestic code
kind sparrow
The disappointment will be immeasurable
west trail
Imagine my disappointment when I found only one public sepples repo on your github
At least then I will have something to look at
and steal
kind sparrow
Nothing I've written in recent years
My innovative shit architecture is nowhere public
haughty shoal
The disappointment will be immeasurable
lies
kind sparrow
Hehe
haughty shoal
I wouldn't make srs public
west trail
I doubt he will make it commercial with that amount of bikeshedding
haughty shoal
on the contrary there may be opportunities for licensing to the DoD maybe someday imo with the goals and vision
kind sparrow
Nah not gonna make it open source but dunno if it'll ever be commercial either
haughty shoal
it's definitely valuable enough where I would opt not to
whereas Rosy is just a silly robot thingy
kind sparrow
Those that hang out in these threads will occasionally see snippets of the codebase
kind sparrow
I doubt he will make it commercial with that amount of bikeshedding
I'm insulted, SRS is a bikeshed-free project 
haughty shoal
fence.gif
west trail
I'm insulted, SRS is a bikeshed-free project <:kekkedsadge:1149726521066524764>
Did you have to put down a basket with leaves and other flora to type this message?
kind sparrow
Ok maybe we do a measured amount of bikeshedding
kind sparrow
But nah most of that is just me thinking about the game while going for a walk at work at lunchtime or something
My "bikeshedding" is mostly allowing myself to develop certain game features deeper than they're needed at the present moment it's not stuff that I won't be using
haughty shoal
this isn't really a bikeshed, which is when people spend a disproportinate amount of time focusing on trivial changes to a bikeshed because having an opinion on the nuclear reactor is too difficult, you're working on the reactor
kind sparrow
Yeah good point
night shoal
we actually like to talk about reactors
haughty shoal
on this server we conflate it a little too much with decision paralysis
which is different
kind sparrow
Me: overengineering the reactor to be insanely efficient and powerful
My boss: that's very cool, but you're a software engineer and I need you to make the website have this picture on it now
night shoal
haughty shoal
I refuse to have decision paralysis, I hate it. I will rather commit to the wrong choice than not make progress, and I think that has worked out for me. I hate it at work when decisions are revisited. No new information means we do not revisit the decision
kind sparrow
Yeah I don't like it either
haughty shoal
I just steam roll it
I let people have their last minute doubts, I just stick with the plan, we'll figure it out as we go
kind sparrow
My architecture is pretty good in that regard too because there isn't like a structure to fit stuff into really you just add a new function call to main and then implement everything under the hood
haughty shoal
my main is like 4 lines of code
kind sparrow
In my limited experience of working on big codebases the hard part comes when the details are difficult to trace back to the core loop or other systems
haughty shoal
I have a core loop, it's just not in main
kind sparrow
If your main loop is just a sequence of system function calls it's pretty easy
Yeah I was sort of using main to refer to the core loop
haughty shoal
in SDL main gets turned into a macro I think too, so it's not the real main
you don't get a main
kind sparrow
Maybe I will make minimal_game public at some point
Or just add anyone who asks to read perms
Honestly that would probably be better anyway
Since it's more to the point and illustrative of the architecture
Rather than having to wade through 50,000 lines of SRS planetary foliage and procedural player controller and firearm crap
The hardest part will be being able to resist adding accurate parallax motion to the stars
night shoal
SDL3 is using macros to cater for more weirderer platforms
but you dont have to go that way and still use the usual way of using sdl
gilded shell
Nah not gonna make it open source but dunno if it'll ever be commercial either
why not?
kind sparrow
Why not to which
gilded shell
not making it open source
kind sparrow
Idk I'd just rather not
It's my precious IP
By not releasing it freely I can cope and say that it's worth $300,000 worth of my labor
And it contains a number of things that are only made possible from my irl expertise and domain knowledge that I'm hesitant to just make publicly available for free
haughty shoal
Open source software is still licensed and its intention is not to reduce the value of your work. But I think the question “why not open source?” is inverted. You should have a compelling reason to.
gilded shell
so i should close source my projects so no one can know how bad the code is
gilded shell
By not releasing it freely I can cope and say that it's worth $300,000 worth of ...
its insane to me that this might actually be an an accurate estimate
kind sparrow
Pretty accurate, I don't track the exact hours I've spent on the project anymore since it's gotten too long and irregular but it's been like 4 years probably 20-30h/wk so somewhere around there
gilded shell
20 hours a week on a personal project is insane
i cant wait to not have both school and work
truly an abomination
kind sparrow
I do nothing else besides go to work and work on my projects
gilded shell
why
junior sparrow
You have to make sacrifices
kind sparrow
When you get older your desire to play video games wanes a bit ime and you may find projects winning out as the activity of choice more
Savor the games while they last
echo token
ime it crashes hard
gilded shell
i hope so tbh
echo token
I don't even think it's a time preference thing, even if I could neet it up 24/7 I'd naturally just wanna do something else
gilded shell
except for Cave Story
junior sparrow
When you get older your desire to play video games wanes a bit ime and you may f...
I sadly go there but Its good you dont waste time playing games and do something productive
gilded shell
everyone can always make time for Cave Story
echo token
yeah I just waste time more broadly
gilded shell
especially you, @kind sparrow
kind sparrow
Lmao
For me personally games are still quite compelling but I just generally don't feel like playing them over projects or yeah sometimes just screwing around aimlessly
When I do burn out on projects sometimes games rise to the top of my priorities again and then I'll take full advantage of it and binge them for a week or two
I never squander the urge to play games it's just not that common
These days I've been playing guitar as my screwing around filler
gilded shell
just accept the Cave Story plug; drop everything and get it (free!)
kind sparrow
Someday lol
The game I was playing most recently was Noita since my brother got it for me for Christmas
gilded shell
I see
anyways I wonder if scientists can take quantum computers and make them develop dna sequences that create organisms with 1:1 dinosaur skeletons and other traits we know about them
kind sparrow
Also for the last month I was binging BG3 at my friend's house so that fulfilled my gaming itch
west trail
Pick up sekiro next time it starts itching
gilded shell
nope cave story
kind sparrow
I could also just play another 2000 hours of Arma
gilded shell
nahhh
gilded shell
@kind sparrow
do you still use a prefix for your class/struct data members?
like m_ or _
or is it useless if you don't have member functions
kind sparrow
I used to although I've been not doing it recently
gilded shell
cool beans
haughty shoal
I use a private namespace in cpp files for encapsulation
gilded shell
i should definitely use namespaces more
but im not sure what exactly warrants one
a namespace per subsystem?
kind sparrow
I don't personally
Make them as broad as possible
Actually nvm I do use them like that
Because if each system has a function called "update" that takes the same args they need to be disambiguated
haughty shoal
I just have these massive thousands of lines long anonymous namespaces one per each cpp file
where most of the code lives
and then anything outside of it is how anything else interfaces with the thing and is exposed in a tiny header
and that's how I get like a 5 second compile time with a 12K loc project
for a full build
13K now
haughty shoal
yeah
kind sparrow
Hm
haughty shoal
better than spamming "static" everywhere
kind sparrow
Yeah
gilded shell
wow i forgot what static does for global/namespace vars
gilded shell
gilded shell
I hate my mentality of “dang I have no freetime” even though I played Minecraft for ~4 hours yesterday
echo token
I feel that, though I feel like you could call the real problem a lack of "high quality" time when you can actually force your brain to do thinky type stuff
gilded shell
i suppose
but i dont know why i would be low on that
school is easy and work is thoughtless
echo token
it still burns your energy and focus
gilded shell
i suppose
and i doubt the solution to that is to consume more and more short form content
this is also affecting my drum practice though, which imo is a lot worse because i need higher frequency to preserve progress
gilded shell
kind sparrow
Lmao
kind sparrow
You got me
It is funny though although I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly, is it about people that play the game rust
Not about the programming language right
gilded shell
honestly the rust shirt was just a throwaway inside joke and i never even thought of the creature being a rust player
kind sparrow
Ah I see
gilded shell
i dont think walmart carries screen protectors for my phone anymore 😦
gilded shell
@plain mantle keyboard has been purchased
plain mantle
what did you get?
gilded shell
korg liano
i watched a few reviews and it seemed best for what i was willing to pay
and Butch Taylor used korg keys with dmb 😅
plain mantle
Looks pretty solid
gilded shell
yeah
i’m only disappointed in the lack of extra sounds
it has all the important stuff but i wont be able to make sax or fiddle noises
kind sparrow
Seems like you could put more midi instruments onto it
plain mantle
i’m only disappointed in the lack of extra sounds
Like demongod said, you can plug it into your computer and use VST plugins to make whatever sound you want
gilded shell
yeah I could
gilded shell
good vsts are like $100 tho
plain mantle
There are good free ones too, most of the VSTs I use are free
I use this one all over the place https://www.spitfireaudio.com/bbc-symphony-orchestra-discover
gilded shell
lost
echo token
lost ||the game?||
gilded shell
some of the best rice ive had was from a chinese takeout place
fried rices tend to be yellow but this was more brown and had a porky flavor
and it seemed to not have as many ingredients as most fried rice would
there were little bits of bacon-like pork, i forgot what thats called
i think the entire rice is called lap yuk rice
ah but i dont think any stores near me carry chinese bacon and it looks like a pain to make
kind sparrow
红烧肉 
kind sparrow
In my 4th year of uni we lived right next to a Sichuan restaurant and my roommate and I would go there like every day whenever school was out and we didn't have dining commons food
night shoal
that must have been like paradise, food wise
kind sparrow
Well I went to a farm school so all the dining commons food was grown/raised on campus so it was pretty lit
plain mantle
ah but i dont think any stores near me carry chinese bacon and it looks like a p...
I take it you don't live in a big city?
gilded shell
I take it you don't live in a big city?
pretty far from it yeah
all we have are major chains and an amish market 30 minutes away
kind sparrow
Sounds like rural midwest alright
plain mantle
Maybe hes not far from me lol, @gilded shell which state?
gilded shell
Sounds like rural midwest alright
nah its eastern shore Maryland
@plain mantle
im a little while away from canada lol
plain mantle
Oh I thought it was gonna be like ohio or michigan
kind sparrow
Oh I thought you were from Ohio
gilded shell
lol why
kind sparrow
Idk I thought you said so for some reason
gilded shell
i think weve had this exact conversation before
gilded shell
@kind sparrow you probably live in apalachia
plain mantle
He lives in the bay area, he's stated it multiple times lmao
Actual photo of demon's house
echo token
gilded shell
He lives in the bay area, he's stated it multiple times lmao
which bay
if its the chesapeake then ill drive to his house
gilded shell
@kind sparrow
kind sparrow
California bay area lol
plain mantle
I'm surprised I haven't been kicked out for my fervent Canadian nationalism
plain mantle
Can we not violate rule 8 here?
kind sparrow
ew out of my chat
Bro has been evidently checked out
night shoal
(i didnt find any good .eu adding .ca to the family jiff yet)
gilded shell
Bro has been evidently checked out
i do not know what this means
gilded shell
Can we not violate rule 8 here?
Jake this thread operates with so many layers of irony that nothing we say should be counted as serious
OBVIOUSLY canada couldnt be annexed as the 51st state
it would probably need to be annexed as 6 states
plain mantle
OBVIOUSLY canada couldnt be annexed as the 51st state
Rule 8 exists for a reason, even if its a joke
kind sparrow
i do not know what this means
Surely you've heard me talking about California in the context of talking to other server members in our threads that live nearby and/or in discussing local flora and/or discussing time zones and/or talking about the local economy and job market and/or travel times to various places etc
gilded shell
word, fair enough (to jake)
gilded shell
Surely you've heard me talking about California in the context of talking to oth...
I had the idea you lived on the west coast
kind sparrow
Not least to mention that the current SRS terrain is in my backyard
kind sparrow
I'm just talking about us constantly talking about where we respectively live lol
But maybe you just haven't been around in those moments
kind sparrow
Yes at first I thought you were making a joke about me not knowing where you live lol
Who tf here lives in Ohio then
kind sparrow
Perhaps
gilded shell
I am writing a short comic series
UPS vs China Post
They’re fighting a battle over an ancient cardboard factory that would help them smuggle things past customs
i was originally trying to show the battle in a neutral stance but I think I’m going to make the UPS soldiers the heroes by having them defy orders and try to instead destroy the factory
gilded shell
in other news I’m very good at calculus
if cs fails im not opposed to something like engineering
kind sparrow
Engineering is harder than CS tbh although I guess it may be true that they're in more limited supply than programmers
It's harder to skate through and be good enough without trying than it is with programming
kind sparrow
Yeah for sure
I just wouldn't consider it a backup plan haha it's like considering graphics programming a backup plan to web development
But yeah it's an alternative
gilded shell
well yeah obviously ill need another 2-6 years of college if i go down that line
are there other well paying calculus jobs?
plain mantle
Finance?
gilded shell
yeah i imagined something related to that
but arent those the jobs you use excel all day?
gilded shell
yeah i know absolutely nothing about finance
i hope its neither corporate hell or immoral
gilded shell
i hope its neither corporate hell or immoral
i wonder if “or” or “nor” is more correct there
night shoal
neither or vs either nor, no? 🙂
kind sparrow
You use excel all day as an engineer too lol
Well ok that's an exaggeration but very few jobs have you doing calculus manually
plain mantle
I use excel every once in while as a programmer too
echo token
yeah finance is literally
expectation: fancy statistical calculus, phd level 27d thinking
reality: make sure the excel report is correct enough that the government isn't mad
that being said I work at a bank not a hedge fund or anything so I assume quants have a little more fun
for them it's jupyter notebooks and playing with graphs, I guess
echo token
i hope its neither corporate hell or immoral
it's not really "immoral", that stuff has been stripped long before you touch anything with calculus, finance is basically using stats to cheat your way out of the consequences of your actions using the law of large numbers
if you want immoral, get a job where you actually sell people auto loans
kind sparrow
If you have high standards for morality your job options go way way down
Just in general
Most big tech type jobs that employ most of the programmers are pretty immoral
echo token
and if you want your job to be fulfilling and useful
finance certainly ain't it
that being said I would certainly want more people to struggle through finance with me because it's pretty much the antithesis of what's easy for programmer nerds like us to learn, at least people like me
it's a dry, formless, boring blob of questionably useful and questionably true factoids and formulas
plain mantle
i hope its neither corporate hell or immoral
Plenty of immoral jobs available as a programmer/engineer
gilded shell
neither or vs either nor, no? 🙂
i think so
thanks for the advice guys
in further news my left elbow has a pinching feeling when i twist it certain ways and aches when i push my hand hard against something
i think ill take a week off from lifting
especially since i turn 18 next week 🙂
joint pain before 18 is bonkers
gilded shell
I'm so glad it's called drawIndirect and not indirectDraw
drawIndirect sounds a lot cooler for some reason
anyways I'm now using an drawBuffer per view and I'm still not impressed with performance
what an inconvinient time for NSight to stop working 😦
something about asan .dll missing
yeah no performance improvement at all actually so i need to get nsight working and see whats wrong
either its bugged and im still somehow atomicAdding to the same var or theres another perf bottleneck somewhere
night shoal
possible that you also dont put an actual load on the gpu
try rendering bistro 100 times or something, with lights and shadows
and your meshlet thing
plain mantle
something about asan .dll missing
Are you running your app from the right directory?
You can set that in nsight
gilded shell
Are you running your app from the right directory?
good question 😅
echo token
3000 trading cards
gilded shell
im never buying celeste
gilded shell
alright I set the correct wd for nsight and now my app seems to crash immediately before nsight can attach
its very convinient that the console closes within a ms of opening, to save me the trouble of having to read any useful debug output
it seems like that address sanitizer .dll can't be found
this also happens when i launch the exe outside of visual studio
i think ill add a custom step to output it to the exe folder
I just have to figure out where its source is
this might be useful but im not sure what it means
night shoal
thats part of MSBuild
Microsoft.CppCommon.targets
thats a custom target you can execute before/after just like you set there
<Target Name="AddAsanBinariesToCopy"
Condition="'$(EnableASAN)' == 'true' and '$(CopyAsanBinariesToOutDir)' == 'true'">
<PropertyGroup>
<ASANExecutablePath Condition="'$(PlatformTarget)' == 'x86'">$(VC_ExecutablePath_x86_x86)</ASANExecutablePath>
<ASANExecutablePath Condition="'$(PlatformTarget)' == 'x64'">$(VC_ExecutablePath_x86_x64)</ASANExecutablePath>
<ASANExecutableFileName Condition="'$(UseDebugLibraries)' == 'true'">clang_rt.asan_dbg_dynamic-$(LlvmPlatformName).dll</ASANExecutableFileName>
<ASANExecutableFileName Condition="'$(UseDebugLibraries)' != 'true'">clang_rt.asan_dynamic-$(LlvmPlatformName).dll</ASANExecutableFileName>
</PropertyGroup>
<ItemGroup>
<CopyFileToFolders Include="$(ASANExecutablePath)\$(ASANExecutableFileName)" />
</ItemGroup>
</Target>
<PropertyGroup Condition="'$(EnableASAN)' == 'true' and '$(CopyAsanBinariesToOutDir)' == 'true'">
<PrepareForBuildDependsOn>AddAsanBinariesToCopy;$(PrepareForBuildDependsOn)</PrepareForBuildDependsOn>
</PropertyGroup>
@gilded shell do you see this?
gilded shell
no lol
night shoal
gilded shell
asan is on
didnt the visual studio properties page have a search bar? why cant i find it
night shoal
yeah then you can set it in the project file
<PropertyGroup>
...
<EnableAsan>true</EnableAsan>
<CopyAsanBinariesToOutDir>true</CopyAsanBinariesToOutDir>
...
</PropertyGroup>
inside your vcxproj
gilded shell
microsoft once again demonstrates their ability to create useless gui
gilded shell
```xml
<PropertyGroup>
...
<EnableAsan>true</EnableAsan>
<CopyAsanBina...
I have to add that manually to each build config? sick
or wait I can probably do it for all debug builds
night shoal
yes and you can add Condition="..."
gilded shell
yeah
gilded shell
heres the keyboard stand i just bought
we might be going desktop lol
or bedtop or what have you
gilded shell
@plain mantle you see this horror
plain mantle
It wobbles?
plain mantle
oof
gilded shell
ill see if i can fix it
night shoal
does it maybe just need some screws to be tightened?
gilded shell
this is the garbage inside that you need to tighten it to
.
it just comes out whenever i tighten it
echo token
does the thread even bite?
gilded shell
does the thread even bite?
yeah
night shoal
maybe you can drill a bigger hole and thread it with a bigger diameter
M3 or M4
with a proper screw
night shoal
and how was it solved?
gilded shell
and how was it solved?
my father saying we'll figure it out
night shoal
hmm
dont turn this into a random stackoverflow thing where a response, made by an account solely created for that purpose, is saying "i fixed it" 😄
gilded shell
well technically its not fixed yet
gilded shell
id rather turn asan off than deal with this
anyways heres what my indirect draw buffers look like
i think this is expected
but those counts look rediculously high
heres the scene ill try next
11 cubes (one is inside the solid green one)
12 triangles each
thats 132 triangles or 396 indices
hmmm
thats a bit low
im not doing any backface culling
ohhh these are opaque indices
5 cubes is 180 indices checks out
night shoal
alignment issue perhaps
gilded shell
nah everything seems in working order
fervent lantern
how come they all start at index 0?
fervent lantern
oh so those are the indirect calls without "expanding" to see the individual draws
what are the 5 buffers for ?
gilded shell
what are the 5 buffers for ?
one for each view
theyll be different once I get per-view culling
night shoal
shadow cascade/point light shadow
gilded shell
alright @plain mantle @night shoal the piano stand solution is that im getting refunded and then buying a better one
a Z shaped one
i also got a double pedal for my kick drum
thats a big learning curve
gilded shell
yeah
@kind sparrow im also figuring out double pedal kick drum playing
something thats going to be challenging to me will be controlling the hi hat and kick at the same time
im think i can keep a heel on the hats and use my toes on the kick
or i can use bridging if im using the hats to mark time while im on the ride
kind sparrow
You don't control both at the same time usually
gilded shell
carter beauford does somehow
gilded shell
okay hes not controlling them at the same time but he is controlling them real close together
for that short lick
kind sparrow
You definitely want them side by side so that you can switch back and forth if necessary
gilded shell
yeah for sure
kind sparrow
But the switch is probably just a question of practice
gilded shell
yeah that switch is so smooth here
i also gotta somehow keep the hats closed while double pedaling
https://youtu.be/E2zpoIlEasY?si=NFnyarFkUbTB189V like at 0:35
kind sparrow
You can get a latch for it
kind sparrow
I forget how I set it up
I never really played with it open
Here's a picture of it I can't really tell if it's set or not though
It looks like it's not
It's possible I had it set so that when the clutch was open the hat didn't close all the way (just by setting the spacers inside)
although that seems like then it wouldn't close even with the pedal down
I forget tbh
But generally I never touched the pedal since I just wanted it slightly open so that it sounded good when hit without touching the pedal
gilded shell
whats this from?
kind sparrow
Old video of a show
gilded shell
oh okay
kind sparrow
I should have recorded myself more when playing at my prime I have very little footage of it
gilded shell
man piano posture is complicated
im just now learning how raise my arms to the keyboard
kind sparrow
I never really learned that stuff lol just press the keys
echo token
I learned how to hold my hands but other than that it's just back straight and keep your chair adjusted right
back when I took piano lessons I heard all kinds of claims that pianists didn't get carpal tunnel supposedly because of their perfect form
gilded shell
I never really learned that stuff lol just press the keys
i am taking my time because that was sort of my approach to drumming: just swing the sticks
lo and behold it ended up being much more complex and i had to relearn a lot of stuff
gilded shell
i think on saturday im gonna force myself to code for many hours
progress must be made on this project
gilded shell
i genuinely thought for years that you couldnt
i wonder if i should do that with parenthesis and brakets too
kind sparrow
You can configure most everything you could ever want in VS
gilded shell
You can configure most everything you could ever want in VS
unless you want to copy asan binaries to the build, then you need to manually modify the vxcproj thing
night shoal
didnt we go through that a week ago?
night shoal
```xml
<PropertyGroup>
...
<EnableAsan>true</EnableAsan>
<CopyAsanBina...
with this shtuff?
gilded shell
yeah i was too lazy to do it so i just turn it off and complain
gilded shell
i think i wanna do another sandbox type project before hoa
i want to experiment with curves and tessellation as a lod solution
gilded shell
or 2d