#Tenebris - Rabbit hole rendering adventures (powered by Daxa)

1311 messages · Page 2 of 2 (latest)

rare timber
sacred jewel
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Steal from frogfood

knotty flare
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i think its fw/engine agnostique

rare timber
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Just to linger a bit on the tesselation shader part - do you know of any resource that actually gives the perf comparison between tesselation shaders and compute solution?

knotty flare
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is it actually bad when you do it on cpu?

prime kite
sacred jewel
sacred jewel
rare timber
sacred jewel
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You'd have to process and re-upload verts every frame

knotty flare
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only when you move

rare timber
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I saw that 2017 cod still used them

image.png
rare timber
knotty flare
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dragonskin as road

knotty flare
prime kite
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I have a link

rare timber
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but like each time you rotate as well

prime kite
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I just have to search inside my archives
(aka, the 275239350198 bookmarks I have)

knotty flare
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i suppose i was sinking about clod

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where just standing but looking wouldnt change anything

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inoger me

prime kite
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Ok nevermind

rare timber
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I'll take a look

prime kite
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this just illustrates the problems of tess (and how to fix them)

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I don't think it ever uses kompoot though

rare timber
# knotty flare where just standing but looking wouldnt change anything

What I was thinking about (and I think it might be similar to what you were considering) is you tesselate the base plane of the terrain and "bake" this tessellation since if you only do position based tessellation you can just scroll the heightmap on top of the bake tessellated mesh

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but then you can't really tesselate stuff that is closer to the camera, because for that you need to actually deform the plane with a heightmap to see if a hill is close or whatnot and tesselate based on that

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and also you can't do cool thingies like angle based tesselation

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https://youtu.be/0TzgFwDmbGg?si=KJo_MvBeZ7XO_J5W I also saw this from Unity but I was not really sold on the perf and memory it requires

YouTube
SIGGRAPH Advances in Real-Time Rendering
Experimenting with Concurrent Binary Trees for Large Scale Terrain ...

In this talk, we share results of our novel technique using concurrent binary trees for large-scale terrain rendering, as well as the results of the deep dive into latest efforts to integrate the original technique into the Unity game engine. Part of the SIGGRAPH 2021 Advances in Real-Time Rendering in Games course (http://advances.realtimerende...

▶ Play video
knotty flare
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: o

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my dayz clone engine thing also needs fancy lodisms

rare timber
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the upside is that they apparently provide .glsl shaders for both their tesselation and data structures

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so it should be pretty easy to plug into my thingy

knotty flare
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the minimap thing reminds me of your vsm lookat debug visualization thingy

rare timber
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yeah exactly 😄

knotty flare
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inb4 TLUFVVSM

rare timber
knotty flare
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hmm i already forgort what that acronym is supposed to be 😄 terrainlodismsusedforVSM

rare timber
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I also asked some ppl who work on the new space engineers engine (VRAGE3 I think) and they also said they do hw tesselation for lower clipmap levels

rare timber
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the fact that I have no mesh shader support is also a pain in the ass

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I really need a new pc

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but my financial situation is saying no

prime kite
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manufacture it yourself

rare timber
knotty flare
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le french speaker pronounces "concurrent" in a funny way

rare timber
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le frech ppl always have funny way of saying certain words I find

knotty flare
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indeed

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das was a nice video btw

radiant meadow
rare timber
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tis a very good talk I guess I should give it a shot

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but iirc they only reach good enuf perf by using meshlets and mesh shaders?

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I should give it another watch

rare timber
sacred jewel
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fog: unlifted

rare timber
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I have some work to do before I become tesselation mage

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this is very based take though

image.png
rare timber
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My brain is expanding

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I understand like 80% now

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It's actually easier than I thought (in b4 i start to implement this bleakekw )

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I think I'll just drop my notes here, mby it is helpful interesting for someone

opal lynx
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I am sort of happy with terrain that I have but needs serious smoothing but I have other stuff to do like shadows and ligthing

rare timber
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Interesting, thanks for all three of those. The first one from GPU gems is just a cursed clipmap scheme, not really sure about that one. The one from far cry is interesting and kinda what I want to do too, but it doesn't really do any sort of tessellation of the near tiles (cringe). The last one seems to use similar approach to Unity (CBT) which I'm also unsure of... It seems interesting but the perf is kinda shit and it all is hidden behind this weirdo black magic structure.

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That being said at least the clip streaming I do plan to implement, but for the tessellation I think I'll try to do what Demon Souls did as the perf is awesome it is very simple (no cursed CBT) and is very elegant in design

rare timber
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"New Daxa version does not require that many changes in your repo"

image.png
turbid seal
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😈

knotty flare
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42 changed files with 1337 additions and 6969 deletions

rare timber
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could it be... the ultimate commit

knotty flare
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probably not 😄

rare timber
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I'm so confused about everything

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I'm using Hillaires technique to render the atmosphere

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which basically precalculates a bunch of values and then raymarches from the viewer towards the atmosphere boundary and stores this into a lat/lon texture

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however the values he stores in this texture are in the range 0.04 - 0.1 sun directly overhead

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and the earth albedo is 0.3 approx

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so then when I render the atmosphere I multiply the ranges in the texture by sun brightness

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and I also take the albedo of the terrain and multiply it with the sun brightness

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which gives me atmosphere that is 2-10 times lower brightness than the terrain

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which makes NO sense

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so I look at what he does in the code which is given as a reference to the paper

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This is what he sets his terrain albedo

image.png
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to match the atmosphere

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So he just puts in albedo that is 8 times lower than the average earth albedo

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and it "just works"

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this is killing me

sacred jewel
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maybe some constants were folded along the way

rare timber
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I checked every constant against measured references 😢

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I guess I check again

knotty flare
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fuck physically correctness, make it look nice

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did i say that out loud?

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oops : )

sacred jewel
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the argument for physical correctness is that you can have confidence that it will behave consistently for any given scene

knotty flare
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did you take a look at reference pictures by any chance, if there are any

rare timber
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I do try to follow that however I find that physical corectness at least gives me a consistent basis

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and then I can just tweak it as I like

rare timber
knotty flare
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i was just throwing a stone through your window to get your forehead unfrowned

knotty flare
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at various locations, snowy, foresty, tundray, em deserty

rare timber
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the sky is much brighter than the terrain

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or do I misunderstand?

knotty flare
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can you show a picture?

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you can assume, that I am the one misunderstanding, most likely

rare timber
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When I cherrypick the photos I guess the sky does look kinda same-ish

image.png image.png
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O guess I can judge more after I add volumetrics

sacred jewel
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now replicate the entire camera's lens and image processing stack to see if your sky model is accurate

knotty flare
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all you dont do is fog being part of atmosferic scattering it seems

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which would put the haze on the pic

rare timber
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yeye

knotty flare
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btw star citizen's latest trailer was ❤️

rare timber
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Oh bro

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don't get me started

knotty flare
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they showed off some cool shit like that atmos scatteringisms

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let me get you started 😄

rare timber
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I loved the volumetrics

knotty flare
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saky.start();

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i quite enjoyed watching those 20mins

rare timber
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I can't wait to do clouds again

knotty flare
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i was also sinking of doing planet rendererer :3

rare timber
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I mean

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gimme sec

knotty flare
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sakys planet renderer footage incoming

rare timber
knotty flare
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man

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that is ❤️

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can i steal that as the server banner?

rare timber
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sure haha

knotty flare
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❤️

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is that a planet or just a pixelshader?

rare timber
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it is the atmosphere

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the same I use to render groud views

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works also for space views

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though there is no mesh underneath

knotty flare
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i need to keep that in mind and ask to steal from you one day 🙂

turbid seal
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saky is complaining to me all day it looks bad

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meanwhile hes showing the prettiest skies ive ever seen

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"OOh but this one thing here"

jolly zenith
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👹

turbid seal
knotty flare
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i saw it earlier today and i was like "thats my bloody game you bastards, echt jetzt junge"

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what i also like is their planets are not huuuuuuuuuge

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they look reasonably "small" when you look at the scale of that babbage town (stupid name) compared to he planet itself

rare timber
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One of the most insane things is how they manage to keep everything consistent given the scale differences

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their volumetrics in general are awesome

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but iirc they outsourced them

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I have some ideas as to how they did the volumetric sunshafts but I'll have to actually try to implement it and suffer

knotty flare
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yeah it looks neat

rare timber
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but each citizencon is just free motivation honestly

knotty flare
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and they keep their pledgers at bay for the next 10 years with these clips 😄

rare timber
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yeah I mean honestly who cares when they release

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the tech is just insane

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they still keep innovating

knotty flare
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i just want to fly around in space

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like through that asteroid ring belt ring thingy

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mine shit, refine it, or sell it

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make stuff out of minerals

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build ships out of that shit, and their components

rare timber
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Yeah I loved grinding Elite Dangerous

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and this is just it but on HUGE steroids

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I really need a new pc

knotty flare
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i never got into elite dangerous : (

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played like 4hrs or so

rare timber
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It had an awesome soundtrack and was just so chill

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that is what kept me enjoying it

knotty flare
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thats true

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music is noice too

turbid seal
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echt jetzt

knotty flare
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: )

turbid seal
knotty flare
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i watched the starcitizen thing again, and noticed the music is quite cool too

rare timber
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The 15 or so minute opening they had had an awesome soundtrack

knotty flare
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yeah

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that fire shit was cool too

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but funny how the peeps inside ran off with the same animation hehe at each fire spot

rare timber
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The fire thing was surprisingly simple and produces awesome looks

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I want to get hired by RSI

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🥹

knotty flare
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hehe i just want actual multi crew shipisms

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with my favorite frogs

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and that multicrew stuff has actual things to run

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shields, powergrid, energy distribution, weapons, perhaps overseeing ballistic missile loadingisms, power core cooling and fuel intermixisms, navigation and all that shit

rare timber
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Oh yeah I forgor about that

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Must be so cool to have 5 ppl running around flying she shit shooting guns and all

knotty flare
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different flight responsibilility depending on where you fly, FTL/loworbit/in atmosphere or whathaveyou

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there are a bunch of games like that, but they are too space engineery and quite wonky somehoe

rare timber
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I need a new PC man, I want to yell at Patrick to fly the ship better from my gunner seat

knotty flare
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hehe yeah

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hold the ship still or ich hau dir die fiese schnauze ein

rare timber
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Lmaooo yes yes

knotty flare
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you understand german?

rare timber
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I understand very little (used translate for that one)

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But I like to learn German sentences and shout them at Germans on occasion

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Keeps them on their toes

knotty flare
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haha

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aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh

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im half way into vkguide

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i want my space game nonsense

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and i want planet scale planets : )

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and multiplayer multicrew ships hehe

rare timber
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That is the dream

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I've been thinking about planet gen for a while

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I'm curious if it's possible to run erosion proc terrain generation on a planetary scale

knotty flare
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why not

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there are a bunch of frogs working on terrain gen too

rare timber
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Hmmm I seem to have missed those

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Time to procrastinate scout the community projects again

knotty flare
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NotAPenguin for instance

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and Implodee

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man, fucking discord, why can i NOT link to threads which i am not part of ffs

rare timber
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You can still copy a message url no?

knotty flare
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no i have to physically join the thread

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ah i can copy the message from there, ye, when i go there

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i was lazy and tried with channel prefix thing #

prime kite
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I wonder where they all went

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their threads are inactive froge_sad

rare timber
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#1044288551669473331 message

knotty flare
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dare and phobos were active 14th last time

rare timber
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Hmm works for me

knotty flare
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ah, then its because the threads closed

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not because im not in the thread, my b

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#1019740157798273024

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hmm but i can link to my shit, which closed itself

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weird

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anyway

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NotAPenguin has "DARE..." the terrain thing and "Phobos..." the vk engine powering it iirc

prime kite
knotty flare
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implodee and earslya are inactive in their projects itseems, also terrain related

rare timber
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I'll check out both

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Man so much cool stuff to do

knotty flare
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hehe

rare timber
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@turbid seal stop playing start citizen and start the merge with me

knotty flare
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if only the day had 48hrs and we would not need to go work to pay the bills 😄

knotty flare
rare timber
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For real, context switching is killing me

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I have no real work (just some weirdisms on the side) but a ton of uni stuff

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And every day I have to do smth different

prime kite
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this is too real

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seriously why does a day have to be 24 hours

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can't we slow down earth's rotation by a bit please?

knotty flare
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day should have 48, and if work was still required, it should also only still be 8hrs max

prime kite
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yes

rare timber
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I need to vent somewhere

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maybe I'm fucking dumb but all the device features extensions capabilities instance extensions is such a mangled piece of garbage to me

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I can't

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understand

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what I'm supposed to do

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what is an extension what is core what the fuck is going on'

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lmao

prime kite
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lol true

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honestly what I do is I just search up the extension

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and check whether it has been ratified into a core vulkan version

rare timber
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yeah the thing I'm working on requires only vulkan 1.2

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so when I want to enable dynamic rendering with 1.2 it's still extension (I guess??) so I need to do that

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but in 1.3 it's core so I need to do smth different

prime kite
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ye

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exactly

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it's a dumb model but if Khronos asked me to come up with something better I would just shrug KEKW

rare timber
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yeah I guess, it is a complicated problem

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what is the differnce between a feature and an extension? Feature is core but does not have to be supported and extension is just a feature that is not yet core?

prime kite
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I guess

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perchance the big brains in #vulkan could have a definite answer

rare timber
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yeah I'll try to research a bit and once I get sufficiently angry I'll ask there haha

sacred jewel
prime kite
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sir Saky, I know you're taking a break from VSM, but let me ask you this, your clipmaps don't necessarily have the same origin right?

rare timber
prime kite
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epic

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you also do snapping based on page size right?

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so if a player moves, you calculate how many pages you travelled for each clip right?

rare timber
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yep exactly

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that one is very easy to do

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here is the code to do that

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the ndc_page_scaled_aligned_player_position is the page offset

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the glm_player_position is the player world space position (I have to do some math before because I store the player position as int offset and float 0-1 position)

prime kite
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The set_position(0.0f, 0.0f, 0.0f) scares me but the rest looks good KEKW

rare timber
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right - that is because I actually move the camera in the scene instead of doing what Jaker does

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so I need to reset the position which was set previous frame, put the camera back to origin figure out the new position and set that

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If I did not set the camera position to 0.0f, 0.0f, 0.0f I would instead have relative offset to the current position - that could also work

prime kite
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makes sense

rare timber
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so instead of having page offset of player from origin I would have player offset from the current position yeah

prime kite
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Also wot the hell is this and why is there a magic 1000 here

rare timber
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uh right

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that is just an artifact lmao

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I forgot that in

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I don't actually use that

prime kite
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epic

rare timber
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This was originally meant to be used to offset the depth values because I also slide the camera up and down with the player position

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so when you draw a page at height say 100 but then the player moves the camera the height changes to say 200 and you do the shadow test against this tile you need to offset the depth

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when you sample the page you need to add "100 * world_depth_factor" so that the depth is consistent

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but what I do instead is move the viewspace position when reprojecting the shadow test now by the sun_height_offset (esentially does the same thing but I can do integer math which is more precise)

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(I wouldn't worry about this if you don't want the moving camera and want to stick to Jakers method)

prime kite
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yeah I'm just taking in all the info I can right now lol

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Hopefully I can craft something nice too

rare timber
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The thing I have rn is a bit hacky but I saw no better way to do this

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since I refuse the we redraw all tiles after player moves x units away from origin 👹

turbid seal
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bro is getting cucked by uni

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saky how many pages left?

rare timber
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6 froge_bleak

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I hate writing papers