(MVP-Model View Projection role for people who are wise/helpful/active/ and share their knowledge and experience.
By First of July a new round of MVPs shall be voted, but this time the whole thing should be fully transparent unlike previous rounds.
#How do you want the MVP Process to happen this time?
upbeat saddle
green grove
i was wondering something just right now
could we have some sort of "honorary MVPs" that dont need to get re-voted every time?
I mean people like Sascha W or baldurk. people heavily involved in tools we use very frequently and that make our existences easier. as a show of appreciation for their contributions.
the MVP votes sort of give me the impression of "here is this subset of peolpe here that are knowledge and have been active in the last X months". which goes in contrast of this sort of more "passive" contribution that other people do like in tooling.
have in mind im not saying replacing the current MVPs or anything, just add another kind of MVPs. the real ones
i guess what im proposing is a bit less transparent since you'd have the cherry picked MVPs vs the ones that get voted in/out every half a year but whatever. i just think some people dont get recognized that should, because the periodic voting works against them.
and how are we going to make them feel special if they dont have a nickname color that nobody else has? how are they going to feel superior to the rest? this has to change
eternal shadow
I get the idea but my minor worry is drawing too much attention to the famous people might attract unwanted attention to them
if they're not in the mvp lineup that means they don't interact much and probably don't want undue attention on them from some random discord they maybe do or don't lurk
and that might just make them leave
green grove
i think that's the party pooper's POV
more seriously: i doubt it. a lot. you're describing it like the paparazzi has been hounding nano ever since he became an MVP
it just has been the cops. for unrelated reasons.
eternal shadow
is nano secretly john nvidia or something
upbeat saddle
please no offtopic discussions
nocturne kiln
Iirc previous vote was fully transparent, just list of names and upvotes for them. What does being more transparent mean in this regard?
fervent ingot
Previous unrest has been caused because we didn't set a threshold for public votes before they happened. This allowed up to eg see a load of people in 1-9 votes each, a big gap to 16 votes, and then define the threshold at 15 votes to make sure the groupings looked good (rather than setting it at 17 votes before the polling started & having one person fall just short because it was defined before we had any idea how active the community would be upvoting people).
And the people who got voted for were on the list because they'd been nominated to the mod team. If people didn't get nominated, they wouldn't be on the list. This anonymous nomination process could also be seen as not transparent.
upbeat saddle
the initial votes/applications themselves were not transparent too, just a form and you wouldnt know if we added/removed people from the "public" voting round
it a little sad that pretty much no interest exists for this topic
we might as well get rid of mvp altogether then
quaint locust
I think being "transparent" is ultimately moot, the point of the role was to show appreciation towards members organically, and as far as I know the demand from transparency mostly came from one particularly displeased individual who felt cheated out of what they deserved
formalising the process doesn't really do much or make it fairer imo, it just turns it into an explicit popularity contest and the publicity blows it out of proportion
upbeat saddle
its been a popularity contest ever since in case you havent noticed : )
quaint locust
i got the role originally on a whim from idr who, weird contest where you can win without knowing you're even playing
eternal shadow
to the original point though I'm still worried putting famous™️ people up on a pedestal who aren't already MVPs for voluntarily engaging (like baldurk) might have a chance of drawing more attention than they'd desire and cause them to leave, I mean imagine if someone did that to you in a server you just lurk and now you're suddenly open to another vector of people pinging you stupid questions
but that's an edge case of an edge case, because the majority of the people you could describe like this do engage at least on occasion
quaint locust
i think it's also problematic to give famous ™️ people an award for clicking "join"
eternal shadow
and on the topic of choosing MVPs, ideally yeah you might want to make it more transparent but luckily you're operating on a scale that so long as purplenames are reasonably trustworthy to be helpful and provide accurate info, I don't care if you pick them with a divining rod
quaint locust
mvps have no power of any kind. how about having mod elections ? (obvious /s)
eternal shadow
mvps have the microscopic power that you except them to be providing good info when they answer a question with authoritative tone, I dunno if you'd eve ncall that power though
but the lack of engagement iwth this topic proves that this hasn't ever really been a problem
quaint locust
yeah i really wonder who is asking for this
the individual i referred to earlier was banned
eternal shadow
yeah relative to the MVPs, I am ever so slightly more annoyed by mods that obviously never check the server anymore and maybe just lurk in off topic or something and then crawl out from under the floorboards when its time to make some private decision
but this server has been going through good times so that's also not an immediate problem
quaint locust
permanent mvps don't really pose any issue like permanent mods do, the title just shifts to being even more honorary but it's all honorary anyways
if an mvp goes inactive then only shows up to shitpost or 
you can just like ... strip the role
eternal shadow
yeah inactivity is also not as harmful, only misinfo or scaring off people who wanna lay low are things that count as possible issues
quaint locust
maybe the current memorandum on one-user honorary roles could be rethinked here, you could have mvp roles for people who are good for certain topics
not that the "being gepinged for being X" problem seems particularly relevant to me
not that i would know i'm not even the ™️ kind of famous
ie i had no issues with nemes-lair or whatever, and personally i think if you have an issue with regulars on a discord server having some kind of token role or color for their contribution, you probably desperately need to touch grass
eternal shadow
I would only be opposed to adding more colors
quaint locust
yeah because it's noise
eternal shadow
I don't like rainbow vomit role palettes
eternal shadow
...and slowly bled out
upbeat saddle
id rather want to give it to people who help peeps out, share their wisdom on actual relevant htings etc
eternal shadow
I think joey de vries left sometime within the last year
upbeat saddle
yep
perhaps too much logl bashing
and i asked him twice whether he will fix this and that, as usual he doesnt have time
quaint locust
logl ?
upbeat saddle
eternal shadow
he's the guy that wrote learnopengl.com
quaint locust
ah, ty
upbeat saddle
we could also turn mvp into something else, "Regular" or so
upbeat saddle
and then regulars can have other people get regular as well as part of some vetting/vote perhaps
quaint locust
if you don't it's just honorary
upbeat saddle
yeah
eternal shadow
my mental image for the negative attention case are people like him, baldurk, and guys like the imgui guy (don't rember his name) (and he isn't here) who get a nice blend of noob questions and occasional script kiddie trying to write an exploit
upbeat saddle
omar
quaint locust
but honorary is fine, for the rare special case you can just strip it if they ask
upbeat saddle
what would qualify that honary role though?
quaint locust
anyone who was mvp once
upbeat saddle
haha
eternal shadow
yeah you could just give them back mvp, I think this is one of those cases where you poke at it for a while only to discover it was mostly fine to begin with
quaint locust
you know that nightmare where you forgot to pass a course and if you don't you'll lose your degree so you go back to school
upbeat saddle
i mean technically speaking, its just us 40 (50 at max) same people talking day in and out, we should all be $REGULARCOLOR
then the occasional frog hops in like pixel, gets stuck here, and few weeks in also is colored $REGULARCOLOR
quaint locust
yeah and then the signal/noise ratio makes it as good as nothing
upbeat saddle
yea
quaint locust
or worse, it looks like an inaccessible in-group
upbeat saddle
gp-frog-loge
quaint locust
maybe regular carries less connotations idk
upbeat saddle
mayhaps we colour peeps like baldur and leave mvp/regular out of here
quaint locust
but beyond roles and colors, behaviour is ultimately how we are judged
fallen niche
Just call non-regulars "irregular"
eternal shadow
yeah but I don't think there's a reason to label regular, I like the idea of labeling people who are able to provide you with higher quality info
quaint locust
if we act like a closed-off fraternity, even with all white names, people will catch onto it
upbeat saddle
another idea could be label with the field of expertise, rather than mvp/regular
quaint locust
maybe the current memorandum on one-user honorary roles could be rethinked here,...
^
you could make those roles boopables so they actually carry some "responsibility"
eternal shadow
the idea that you can spot some people who you can with some degree of certainty trust know something about something is the real value of mvp to the regular user and what makes it not be a stinky ingroup
upbeat saddle
yeah i remember i wanted that some time ago already, it was ultimatively dismissed
eternal shadow
you could just subtag it
upbeat saddle
that we come here to share our NIH is the whole point of being boopable
eternal shadow
just an uncolored/ungrouped role that anyone can see if they're interested
for MVPs
Specialization - Raytracing, Specialization - Vulkan, Specialization - Mathematics, etc
quaint locust
i think i trust the gp elite (admin/mods) more than I do randos to determine who is a suitable specialist in what
upbeat saddle
i was about to ask
should those be self assignable or not (and builtin booperable)
eternal shadow
yeah I don't mind that
quaint locust
you have people who shall not be named, who can't help but be experts in everything and jump in convos with no insight
and start writing walls of text, often repeating things that were said earlier
eternal shadow
the only thing I mind are lurker/less-than-lurker mods getting involved in something that involves paying attention to the server about 10x more than they actually do
upbeat saddle
with that in mind we could go further and have others vote others for spezialization x
for instance, DR you keep seeing jaker helping peeps with OpenGLisms, then you could create a suggestion "Make Jaker gl-spexialist"
and people can updoot{/downdoot}
eternal shadow
yeah but also for the scale that's probably in the realm of bureaucratic gunk
upbeat saddle
yeah
eternal shadow
maybe people could do that but at the current scale I don't think anyone will have to
upbeat saddle
the problem with selfassignment of functional roles which are supposed to be boopable, people will be people and get annoyed "TF BOOPED ME"
quaint locust
which circles back to: who exactly (except that one) has expressed griefs over the MVP situation
upbeat saddle
nobody
all i want is, mvp nomination be 100% nonopaque
and have the frogs collect votes
stupid forms sucketh
eternal shadow
yeah and considering one of the preconditions for MVP has always been some degree of activity I don't think anyone who is already decently active is as bothered by being pinged from here
eternal shadow
as someone who considers this "some random server"
upbeat saddle
i do remember that i actively not included 2 or 3 people in the final vote, because i personally thought those make no sense as votes
quaint locust
we should not confuse transparency and democracy
upbeat saddle
sure
we COULD do yet another thing
we will wipe mvp 1.7.2023 and not do anything further
and see what people have to say
quaint locust
sure whatever
upbeat saddle
given the participation in here, just saying
its usually a bigger hoo haw when it comes to mvpisms
quaint locust
only 🤓 look at suggestions
upbeat saddle
: )
quaint locust
or people who are very bored
upbeat saddle
i dont mind something like mvp to be a thing
quaint locust
kinda sad to get rid of it because who-shall-not-be-named made a tantrum, if that is the case at all
quaint locust
if it's definitely not because of them, i actually don't care
rip pretty pfp-matched color
upbeat saddle
also also, just because I say we need/neednt mvp doesnt mean it has to be this way
im just here to enable/disable/create/delete 😛
loud osprey
hi
upbeat saddle
o/
loud osprey
From an outsider perspective I just thought the MVP role was kind of a meme 
Because MVP = ModelViewProjection and stuff
upbeat saddle
ye at one day in the past i was wondering that MVP also stands for modelviewprojection and renamed it on a whim
loud osprey
I think it makes sense to formally define MVP as "role assigned by the staff to frogs who demonstrate helpful behavior and regulars"
upbeat saddle
thought it fits a GP server
it still is kinda
but the past 2 voting rounds it was more or less a thingy contest
i forgot the term, but was mentioned above somewhere
loud osprey
Transparency is nice but kinda secondary, it would be cool to keep a log of all the role assignments
quaint locust
i do think the mods assigning it on a whim is less of a popularity contest, because you can get it more randomly
upbeat saddle
ah popularity contest, ye
quaint locust
again, their judgment
upbeat saddle
it also wasnt really that
quaint locust
we rely on their judgment for this place to function anyways
quaint locust
idr, did you give it to me before we did votes ?
upbeat saddle
you got it via legit votes
quaint locust
no i got it before
upbeat saddle
i think you had it before that as well, hmm
but not because you are a waffle only
you were more active back when, iirc
and what you say/said made sense 🙂
quaint locust
i think i'm as active as before, just shifted from gl/vk to langdev and existential horror
upbeat saddle
possible that this colour made you more visible as well and peeps kept seeing you more, therefore put in a vote the past times
loud osprey
quaint locust
i sleep with a xkcd 386 body pillow
loud osprey
Anyways, voting is good as well
If the interest in voting is too low the thing fades away though
upbeat saddle
if the frogs of this server just want to be left in peace, then we dont have to do anytthing
same with any other activity
light-transport lectures... experiments.... voice-chatisms.... thismeshwilldestroyyourshit... et al
quaint locust
let him cook
loud osprey
I want more of thismeshwilldestroyyourshit
upbeat saddle
mwa ossi, tbqh
its usually quite interesting when all sorts of people take their NIH and run it against the wall 😄
quaint locust
my github bio is "I break your compiler" bc it's what I do
loud osprey
my github bio is "I break your compiler" bc it's what I do <:KEKW:66684932146279...
But did you break NVIDIA's internal GLSL compiler?
quaint locust
no, only because I don't target it yet, see #1026505567411384340
upbeat saddle
ok we either get more frogs in here to discuss what we do/want to do or idk what we do
loud osprey
Mayhaps we wait until the NA frogs wake up
upbeat saddle
yep we dont have to decide anything in the next hour 🙂
fading bobcat
mvps have no power of any kind. how about having mod elections ? (obvious /s)
Mvps can post in #graphics-resources
fervent ingot
Think that changed so is now open to all (same as news now).
green grove
what would qualify that honary role though?
i proposed baldurk and Sascha W for obvious reasons: renderdoc and the gpuinfo database. which granted, it's one of many other things sascha does, but it's probably the one with the most visiblity. i mean having the gpuinfo website is awesome compared to fucking 10 years ago when you just asked what GPU people had and what it supported IF they knew at all. same with renderdoc. these are tools that elevate us from mere cavemen into advanced cavemen.
maybe not even call it MVP, call it the "Thank You For Existing" role, TYFE.
upbeat saddle
i proposed baldurk and Sascha W for obvious reasons: renderdoc and the gpuinfo d...
yeah gpuinfo is neat, before that was only wolfire's excelsheet 😄
green grove
ikr? or the unity database. but yeah, nothing as convenient as gpuinfo.
drifting vector
id argue the vulkan samples are even more valuable
green grove
you know that interview where pedro pascal says he looks at social network groups dedicated to how much of a heartthrob he is when he is feeling down? well the GP server can be that for Sascha.
fast shoal
Give deccer permanent MVP, problem solved ✅
hidden tapir
we might as well get rid of mvp altogether then
I like this suggestion the most. Feels like mvp role might imply that the server condones the attitude and views of mvp members, whereas all members should feel free to act individualistic without that consideration unless they are moderators (whom have the responsbility and volunteer to represent the server).
but I think whether the role exists is harmless either way. After being active on and off on the server I started treating the credibity of each member on an individual basis and whether a member has a 'mvp' label didn't really mean anything once getting to understand each member themselves.
upbeat saddle
no idea what the first part means, but the 2nd one makes sense to me
hidden tapir
no idea what the first part means, but the 2nd one makes sense to me
First one in simple words is "do MVPs represent the server? Like mascots/ambassadors?"
fervent ingot
Yes-No; MVPs represent the views of the community (and so they are "GP" in that sense that all this server is run for the benefit of the community) but they are not condoned or moderated differently by the admins/mods (vs any other users).
To me, MVP role provides one very easy thing: new users can see people with a special role interacting & answering questions. With a bit of thought, they can work out these users are more likely than the rest to provide good answers. I find this pattern (a role high up the role priority list with a few regular users assigned to it & who are generally considered to be knowledgeable) is something that happens in a lot of more-technical Discord server.
hidden tapir
To me, MVP role provides one very easy thing: new users can see people with a sp...
Thats a good view. I think I also agree with that and feel that way. I did feel I am more likely to trust mods and MVP when I was new
upbeat saddle
looks like ill just wipe mvp at july 1st
green grove
no more MVPs?
hidden tapir
only VPs now. We multidraw indirect now... a new age...
quaint locust
Wildcat VP
nocturne kiln
I don't see the current MVP system being bad at all. It's a fun little thing. On the other hand if there are bad parts about it removing it doesn't really bother me.
upbeat saddle
mvp itself is not bad, but the vote was just intransparent
nocturne kiln
The initial suggestions that is? The actual vote itself was very transparent
upbeat saddle
nah, you fill out some google doc, and we picked top X, and then let people vote on those
id would have liked people suggest openly, and then go from there, no google docs or strawpoll bs
and even the google docs bs, requires people to run it again
which was usually me anyway
perhaps im just tired of doing everything myself most of the time 🙂
quaint locust
transparency != democracy
a public log of MVP assignments is transparent
open for all voting on MVPs is democratic
green grove
transparency != democracy
a public log of MVP assignments is transparent
open for all voting on MVPs is democratic
yeah that's pretty fair
upbeat saddle
just look at the amount of people in this thread, its pretty much 0, no real interest in the topic just the few of us
green grove
i mean the MVP system is one of those things that "helps" in a non obvious way. monkey brains like ours will probably follow the advice of someone with the fancy name color instead of someone who doesnt has one.
on the other hand having the MVP role being called modelviewprojection may not make it very obvious why said member has the role now that i think about it
upbeat saddle
renaming it to something more suitable/obvious is a nice candidate for a separate suggestion
green grove
done
got immediately shot down by 3 mods, thanks deccer
they didnt even like my writing smh
stark belfry
Hey for the record I thought your writing was great, nice prompt engineering 
steel yacht
I think just because people don't have an opinion on the process doesn't mean it's a bad idea or we should scrap it? The way I see it, MVP is a weird little something you do for the community to reward people who spend time here helping
The names could be selected from a game of spin the bottle and it would be okay. MVP is meaningless, after all
leaden sable
Careful or you might get MVP...
surreal jetty
If people don't have much opinion then just leave it the way it is
That is my philosophy for everything lol conflicts of interest aside
distant glen
i have not participated in this because im fine with how its gone