Phobos - Vulkan abstraction library in Rust | Graphics Programming | Page 3

night charm Jul 12, 2023, 10:40 PM

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Hopefully not

languid fern Jul 12, 2023, 10:50 PM

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Also, when does recreating happen? After the desc dies (due to the lifetime limit) or when its resources are dropped/changed?

limber rapids Jul 12, 2023, 10:51 PM

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on change (I stole penguin's design for my thing bleakekw )

night charm Jul 12, 2023, 10:51 PM

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When a draw is recorded it looks for and creates any descriptor sets it needs

languid fern Jul 12, 2023, 10:52 PM

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So lets say I bind buffer1 a single time per frame, does it re-create the desc set that contains buffer1 periodically or does it keep alive as long as the buffer1 resource is alive?

night charm Jul 12, 2023, 10:52 PM

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It keeps it alive

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Every use resets the death clock

limber rapids Jul 12, 2023, 10:54 PM

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as long as you bind the exact same resource to the exact same binding it'll live

languid fern Jul 12, 2023, 10:54 PM

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Aight sweet exactly like my wgpu renderer as well

languid fern Jul 12, 2023, 10:55 PM

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night charm Every use resets the death clock

Ohh I see how that would work yea

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So the desc set doesn't immediatly get deleted, only after N frames (where N is the desc set lifetime limit I assume?)

night charm Jul 12, 2023, 10:56 PM

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Yeah

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And if you use it somewhere in that timeframe it’s kept alive for another N frames

languid fern Jul 12, 2023, 10:57 PM

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Awesome

hybrid pilot Jul 12, 2023, 11:52 PM

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back to the basics I guess lol (rewriting the renderer in my engine https://gitlab.com/pac85/GameKernel using phobos)

GitLab

antonino / GameKernel · GitLab

a 3d game engine written in rust!

languid fern Jul 12, 2023, 11:56 PM

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Les gooo

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Ooh you have Rust reflection for ECS components*

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Awesome

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I always tell myself I'll implement it but I never do

hybrid pilot Jul 12, 2023, 11:58 PM

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languid fern I always tell myself I'll implement it but I never do

Yeah but after doing some things by hand enough times I forced myself to do it

hybrid pilot Jul 12, 2023, 11:58 PM

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languid fern Awesome

Thanks!

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It's a bit messy

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Because it started out very simple

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Hopefully I can clean that up eventually

languid fern Jul 12, 2023, 11:59 PM

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Holy shit even a scripting language

hybrid pilot Jul 12, 2023, 11:59 PM

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Didn't make that myself

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It's wren

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But yeah with reflection I was able to generate bindings on the fly

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 12:01 AM

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That is super impressive

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Starred it. Awesome work!

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 12:05 AM

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languid fern Starred it. Awesome work!

Thank you very much!
Hopefully I can get the renderer rewritten quickly enough. The previous one was a mess but I can at least resuse all of my shaders

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 12:07 AM

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Yep hopefully it goes well

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Yea if you don't mind me imma just yoink most of your reflection code lol

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 12:09 AM

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No problem! Feel free to relicense it as well

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Maybe I could turn that into a separate crate

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 7:48 AM

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Heheheha time to work on phobos at 4 am in the morning

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 8:00 AM

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Lmao

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:42 AM

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@night charm I submitted PR for exposing 3D texture stuff

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 8:42 AM

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Epic

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Will take a look in a bit

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:42 AM

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Thamks

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 8:46 AM

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we did it

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idk how to fix the upside down bit KEKW

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but its works

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this is normalizing the world coordinates thank to getting the vertices

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so ug

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how do you generate normals

limber rapids Jul 13, 2023, 8:52 AM

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You don't

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I mean you could

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but why would you, just get them form the gltf

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 8:52 AM

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yeah but what if my model doesn't have normals

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🤔

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oh wait this is a bunch of cross products

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i think?

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:53 AM

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iron shadow oh wait this is a bunch of cross products

Yep

limber rapids Jul 13, 2023, 8:53 AM

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cross product of two edges of a triangle

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 8:53 AM

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oui

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:53 AM

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https://github.com/jedjoud10/cflake-engine/blob/main/crates/rendering/src/mesh/utils.rs#L171-L206

GitHub

cflake-engine/crates/rendering/src/mesh/utils.rs at main · jedjoud1...

Custom ECS-based game engine built on Rust and WGPU - jedjoud10/cflake-engine

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'Tis how I do it

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 8:55 AM

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noooo

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smh not multithreaded

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smh doesn't use compute shaders that can scale across multiple gpus to create normals

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:56 AM

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Oh yea it's CPU based sowwy

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 8:56 AM

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kekw it's fine lmaoo

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 8:57 AM

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iron shadow idk how to fix the upside down bit <:KEKW:666849321462792234>

flip projection matrix

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 8:57 AM

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languid fern Oh yea it's CPU based sowwy

rayon!

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:57 AM

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Yes I really should use rayon for that

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 8:57 AM

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sounds familiar

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rayon?

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:57 AM

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Makes rust multithreading super duper easy

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 8:57 AM

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is it liek uh

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that one c++ lib

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OpenMP

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:58 AM

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Yepp

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Paralellism made easy™️

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 9:00 AM

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can you multithread uploading to the gpu?

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wait no you can't

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well sorta?

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you just gotta submit all the commands at once

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:01 AM

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Yea I guess that would be possible. Idk how that would help though. I think GPU-GPU copy is already paralellised by the GPU itself

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 9:01 AM

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i say sorta that it's gpu wizardry if it wants to do that

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:02 AM

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Yea I have not had to deal with complex command stuff like that yet

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 9:03 AM

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personally i feed my gpu 3 scoops of raw chicken meet + water bowl to get it

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now im just waiting on penguin

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to add the images

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in the meantime

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i'm gonna multithread everything i physically can

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:04 AM

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@languid fern added some comments

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 9:05 AM

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i just realized this isn't my channel

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im so sorry

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KEKW

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:05 AM

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bleakekw

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its fine

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i wonder

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can you have webhooks in a thread

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:05 AM

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night charm <@463353335269818368> added some comments

Yep just noticed

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:06 AM

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night charm can you have webhooks in a thread

looks like you cant

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sad

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:19 AM

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Sorry that the PR taking time is my first time doing this

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:19 AM

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no worries take your time lmao

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im working on descriptor indexing rn

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:20 AM

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Les fucking gooo

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That's gonna make my life much easier when dealing with 3D texture voxel data and I'm all for it

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:21 AM

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yeah

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:42 AM

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ok lets run CI and merge

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:42 AM

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Sweet

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Tomorrow I'll work on getting other easy issues fixed

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:43 AM

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yeah i gotta actually work through a bunch of them soon

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ill also try to make some progress on exposing more api features

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@languid fern merged

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:56 AM

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Yay

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 10:05 AM

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thank you nodle

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for adding mip map levels

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KEKW

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 10:14 AM

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dont tell him his pr had a bug

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bleakekw

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i didnt see it either when reviewing tbh

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let image_type = if extent.height == 1 && extent.depth == 1 {
            vk::ImageType::TYPE_1D
        } else if extent.height > 1 {
            vk::ImageType::TYPE_2D
        } else if extent.depth > 1 {
            vk::ImageType::TYPE_3D
        } else {
            return Err(anyhow::anyhow!("Image extents invalid"));
        }

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if height > 1 and depth > 1 this will return 2D

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while it should be 3D

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 10:17 AM

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huh i realized the examples don't have a way to access the window

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 10:18 AM

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yeah the example framework is kinda shit and really simple

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 10:18 AM

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im using it bleakekw

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hmmm how to rewrite it so window is visiblde

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oh god

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how to do window resizinfg

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 10:32 AM

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Tbh the sample is not a good start to use as a beginning point for a project, I should make it better

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 10:33 AM

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yeah

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you are remaking the entire context every frame bleakekw

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 10:34 AM

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I mean

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It just copies some refcounted objects

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Its not too bad

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 10:34 AM

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oh eh

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but not ideal

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hmm how am i supposed to do window resizing with this bleakekw

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 10:48 AM

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oops i broke the example compilation lol

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fixed

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thank you CI

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 10:48 AM

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KEKW

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 12:46 PM

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Does phobos have a VkImageMemoryBarrier ?

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I need it for mip mapping

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unless there is another way

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oh uh

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@night charm I don't you guys added any blit functionality

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 12:59 PM

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iron shadow Does phobos have a `VkImageMemoryBarrier `?

yes

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 12:59 PM

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iron shadow <@190522027440865280> I don't you guys added any blit functionality

should be in a command hol up

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https://docs.rs/phobos/0.10.0/phobos/command_buffer/traits/trait.GraphicsCmdBuffer.html#tymethod.blit_image

GraphicsCmdBuffer in phobos::command_buffer::traits - Rust

Trait representing a command buffer that supports graphics commands.

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 1:00 PM

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iron shadow Does phobos have a `VkImageMemoryBarrier `?

https://docs.rs/phobos/0.10.0/phobos/command_buffer/struct.IncompleteCommandBuffer.html#method.pipeline_barrier

IncompleteCommandBuffer in phobos::command_buffer - Rust

This struct represents an incomplete command buffer. This is a command buffer that has not been finished yet with IncompleteCommandBuffer::finish(). Calling this method will turn it into an immutable command buffer which can then be submitted to the queue it was allocated from. See also ExecutionManager.

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 1:00 PM

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why is it everytime i searhc up blit

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mf doesn't show up

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 1:00 PM

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no idea

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 1:00 PM

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oh im blind that is why bleakekw

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 1:00 PM

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bleakekw

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i should try to remove the vk exports from docs.rs

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its kinda annoying

limber rapids Jul 13, 2023, 1:01 PM

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Penguin, am I hallucinating or did you do something like Material ID = depth in depth buffer in your terrain thingy

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 1:01 PM

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bleakekw when did i do that

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i dont think so

limber rapids Jul 13, 2023, 1:01 PM

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epic, I am hallucinating then

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 1:02 PM

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i just do normal mapped phong shading everywhere lmao

limber rapids Jul 13, 2023, 1:02 PM

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Why is it every time I try to read something Unreal does it requires unimaginable amounts of brain juice to comprehend

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 1:03 PM

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true

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 1:24 PM

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night charm <:bleakekw:1082598350303539240>

Shit sorry

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I knew there had to be one there due to me coding that tate

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 1:29 PM

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its fine lol

limber rapids Jul 13, 2023, 1:35 PM

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limber rapids Why is it every time I try to read something Unreal does it requires unimaginabl...

I figured it out

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 1:35 PM

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🫡 unreal engine

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 2:36 PM

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@night charm Shouldn't present, color, color_attachment... etc etc only be supported for the GraphicsDomain in PassBuilder?

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 2:36 PM

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that seems reasonable

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 2:37 PM

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Also could help remove the Fails if this pass was not created using PassBuilder::render() case since it would be type checked

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 2:37 PM

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ooh

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yeah I like that

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Can you open an issue for that with the design label

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 2:38 PM

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Yos

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 2:42 PM

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languid fern Also could help remove the ```Fails if this pass was not created using PassBuild...

Ah I realized

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For this to actually benefit the user we'd have to assume that all PassBuilders using the Graphics domain are going to be render passes

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If you're fine with that assumption then yea it would work

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But in the case of present it seems like it's not considered a render pass (unless that's a bug?)

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pub fn present(name: impl Into<String>, swapchain: &VirtualResource) -> Pass<'cb, D, U, A> {
        Pass {
            name: name.into(),
            color: None,
            inputs: vec![PassResource {
                usage: ResourceUsage::Present,
                resource: swapchain.clone(),
                stage: PipelineStage::BOTTOM_OF_PIPE,
                layout: vk::ImageLayout::PRESENT_SRC_KHR,
                clear_value: None,
                load_op: None,
            }],
            outputs: vec![],
            execute: EmptyPassExecutor::new_boxed(),
            is_renderpass: false,
        }
    }

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 2:45 PM

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languid fern But in the case of ``present`` it seems like it's not considered a render pass (...

thats not a bug no

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i see what you mean though yeah

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i think thats a reasonable assumption

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actually nevermind its not

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you can have a compute pass in a frame for example, which would still use the graphics domain

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 2:47 PM

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Yea hmm

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Cause tbh I don't like that there's that panic that could occur

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It feels like it could be typed out strongly and completely erased

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 2:47 PM

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it just returns an Err case so it doesnt necessarily panic, but I agree

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ill do some pondering

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 2:48 PM

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frog_think

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I'll submit issue about the other specializing domain stuff though

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 2:48 PM

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yep

torn kettle Jul 13, 2023, 2:48 PM

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you can present from compoot

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potentially

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 2:49 PM

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right yeah

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the is_renderpass flag is mostly used to emit a vkCmdBegin/EndRendering when executing the pass @languid fern

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which obviously you dont need to present

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 2:50 PM

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big complicated words 🗣️ (what is going on)

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 2:50 PM

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design ponderings

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 2:50 PM

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night charm the `is_renderpass` flag is mostly used to emit a `vkCmdBegin/EndRendering` when...

O I see

torn kettle Jul 13, 2023, 2:51 PM

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more gazing into the vuk orb needed

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 2:51 PM

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https://github.com/NotAPenguin0/phobos-rs/issues/63

GitHub

Type Checked Graphics/Render Pass Builder · Issue #63 · NotAPenguin...

Currently, inside the PassBuilder, the functions present, color, color_attachment, clear_color_attachment, load_color_attachment, clear_depth_attachment, clear_load_attachment, depth_attachment, re...

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 2:51 PM

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torn kettle more gazing into the vuk orb needed

true

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 2:51 PM

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Time to implement pr heheheha

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This is what happens when you give summer break to a hs student with nothing to do over the summer

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Too much time

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 2:52 PM

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/754090061141639189.webp?size=48&name=kekw&quality=lossless

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been tehre

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 2:57 PM

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MSAA resolve is a graphics only thing or can it also be executed on compute?

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 2:58 PM

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graphics only

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 2:59 PM

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Alright I'll specialize that too then

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I never had to deal with SMAA before because I hate any form or type of AA

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 3:00 PM

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fsr2 ftw

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 3:05 PM

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Kek

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Idk how fsr2 is gonna look like with low poly terrain

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 4:39 PM

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Worth a try

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Its pretty easy to set up

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 4:55 PM

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Yos

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I'm just worried that my executable size will go up (it's already at 13 mb for an empty scene, which is a lot)

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Eh whatever

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@night charm are you looking to make the API like fully error prone with good error / validity or is it too low level for that?
The reason why I'm asking is cause I have my engine graphics API that already does a bunch of error validation (especially when reflecting shaders) so I was wondering if I should keep those or just scrap them and rely on Phobos validation instead

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:23 PM

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Some validation is done but stuff like validation layers are still needed

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Also I don’t plan to make the same guarantees as vulkano does

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Phobos makes it harder to make mistakes but it’s still possible

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What sort of validation do you do specifically

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:24 PM

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Please don't do expensive validation

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:25 PM

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Definitely not

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:25 PM

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I think the right approach is to make UB inexpressible with the api

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But oviosuly a few asserts here and there won't hurt anything

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:26 PM

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Yeah that’s the main goal, but I don’t want to end up too much like vulkano

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You can still cause validation errors, but if you do it should usually not crash everything

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:27 PM

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BTW yesterday I forgot to store the instance object and in went out of scope, then it sigsevved when it tried to allocate a buffer lol

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:29 PM

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bleakekw

iron shadow Jul 13, 2023, 5:29 PM

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what's wrong with Vulkano?

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:29 PM

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night charm What sort of validation do you do specifically

https://github.com/jedjoud10/cflake-engine/blob/main/crates/graphics/src/shader/error.rs

GitHub

cflake-engine/crates/graphics/src/shader/error.rs at main · jedjoud...

Custom ECS-based game engine built on Rust and WGPU - jedjoud10/cflake-engine

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:29 PM

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iron shadow what's wrong with Vulkano?

Vulkano does heavy validation all the time

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:29 PM

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I think I overcomplicated my validation layers a bit....

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I should just assume whatever spv layout it is to always be valid ngl

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Could've saved me lots of trouble

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:30 PM

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hybrid pilot BTW yesterday I forgot to store the instance object and in went out of scope, th...

I could fix that by storing a copy of the instance inside the device

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Not sure how desirable that is

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:30 PM

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night charm I could fix that by storing a copy of the instance inside the device

Is it ref counted?

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:30 PM

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night charm Not sure how desirable that is

Tbh I don't care

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It was my fault

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I deserved that sigsev

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:31 PM

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It should at least panic or err ngl

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:31 PM

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hybrid pilot Is it ref counted?

Maybe the instance isn’t actually, but most core objects are

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Its hard to check that

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Mostly up to ash

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If anything

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:31 PM

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Though technically safe APIs shouldn't cause this kind of crashes? But I wouldn't suggest doing anything other than marking things as unsafe

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:32 PM

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Technically not no

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Ill see if I can make the instance refcounted too

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:33 PM

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night charm Some validation is done but stuff like validation layers are still needed

Ok so it's still pretty low level got it

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:34 PM

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But it's one of those things where preventing it is actually really hard and can't really be done without compromises

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:34 PM

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Absolutely yea

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When I tried making a vulkan abstraction I was stuck trying to split up what should validation and what should be "high level" and "low level"

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When I used wgpu I kinda disliked it because I did validation on top of what they already do so that's perf wasted

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:36 PM

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Wgpu has to do validation because it is meant to run in browsers I think

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So security and what not

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:37 PM

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Its webgpu

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and yeah supports meme platforms

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:37 PM

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Yeah sorry

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:37 PM

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No I mean wgpu implements webgpu

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:37 PM

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night charm and yeah supports meme platforms

And I'm like. Vulkan is THE cross platform api. If my program doesn't run on something it's not me not supporting that, is the platform not supporting my program 😎

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faces reality

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:38 PM

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Yeah vulkan is meant to be cross platform but mobile vk is quite different from desktop in terms of best practices and hw support

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:38 PM

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Yeah

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:38 PM

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So making a higher level api unifying those requires compromise

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:39 PM

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Though I get the appeal of running things in browsers

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:39 PM

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And a lot of vulkan programmers don’t care about these platforms, so it would be a shame to make them use a less powerful version of the api

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:39 PM

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And clearly vulkan is not acceptable there

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:39 PM

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Yeah

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:39 PM

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night charm And a lot of vulkan programmers don’t care about these platforms, so it would be...

Exactlyyy

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:40 PM

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If your app should run in a browser wgpu is good but that’s not always the case

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:40 PM

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night charm And a lot of vulkan programmers don’t care about these platforms, so it would be...

Even if I wanted to care tbh I'm not restriciding myself to old vulkan + tons of workarounds because things are so broken

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:40 PM

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Fair

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:40 PM

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Like tiling GPUs are interesting

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And optimizing things for it is an interesting problem

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:40 PM

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Its just not my problem KEKW

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:41 PM

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But the other stuff that I said is not

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Dealing with broken drivers is not an interesting problemn

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:41 PM

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That too

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:41 PM

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night charm Its just not my problem <:KEKW:666849321462792234>

Lol

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:42 PM

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So it begins...

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:42 PM

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Big pog

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:42 PM

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At least now when I find a bug I can just literally fix it and continue devving unlike waiting for months for WGPU to fix it for all platforms

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:42 PM

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Lol

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:43 PM

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Yeah we go fast here

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:43 PM

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Yeah Phobos is small

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:43 PM

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12k lines for what it does is actually pretty darn impressive

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:43 PM

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Yeah

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Also it's fairly direct

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:43 PM

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Is it 12k already

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I think it was like 6-7k not long ago

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:43 PM

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Like if I jump to the definition of a function it's often ash code

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:43 PM

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night charm I think it was like 6-7k not long ago

Bro is on the grind

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:43 PM

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Vulkano is like 96k

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:43 PM

#

My engine itself is at 20k kek

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:43 PM

#

I might have to do a round of cleaning up internals at some point

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:43 PM

#

hybrid pilot Vulkano is like 96k

No fucking way

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:44 PM

#

wtf

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:44 PM

#

I don't believe that

#

Dead ass

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:44 PM

#

Mine was 30k

#

Before deleting the renderer

#

Now idk

#

But I will go back up and past 30k eventually

#

It will be less lines with Phobos

#

But I'll do more stuff

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:45 PM

#

I gotta keep an eye on your usage’s of the lib so I can see what needs to change

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:46 PM

#

One of the things is that I want to go bindless right from the start

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:46 PM

#

That should be possible now

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 5:46 PM

#

Oh nice

#

And I'll be glad to contribute and what not

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 5:47 PM

#

frogapprove

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 5:47 PM

#

hybrid pilot One of the things is that I want to go bindless right from the start

Exactly same mentality

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:53 PM

#

@night charm I have a few questions if you don't mind me asking

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 8:53 PM

#

go ahead

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:55 PM

#

ComputePipelineBuilder::persistent just makes the pipeline alive forever and it states that the same method isn't available on PipelineBuilder because they need to rebuilt constantly. What exactly a pipeline to be rebuilt?

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 8:55 PM

#

when the render target size changes

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:55 PM

#

Oh there's no way to use dynamic state for that?

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 8:55 PM

#

its somewhat annoying because theyre closely linked to renderpasses, even with dynamic rendering theres still some state info

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:56 PM

#

Ahh I see

#

Alright that's fine

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 8:56 PM

#

honestly its kind of a hack

#

compute pipelines typically dont rebuild unless you do shader hot reloading stuffs

#

so its fine to just keep them alive

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 8:57 PM

#

Yep

#

Other question:

#

Is this safe or are there fields that can't be shared?

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 8:59 PM

#

Surface, Instance and PhysicalDevice are not synced but access to them should be read-only anyway so its fine

#

oh swapchain too

#

you dont need to store the swapchain though

#

the framemanager holds it for you

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:00 PM

#

Oh sweet cool

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:00 PM

#

in my project I distinguish between SharedContext and "the rest"

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:00 PM

#

I see I see

#

Yea I'll do the same

#

And a final question:

#

Is there a reason why FrameManager's new_frame takes in a callback instead of separating it into two distinct functions: aqcuire and present?

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:02 PM

#

because it relies on sync between the two

#

and this frame sync is the same for every application so it makes sense to handle it there imo

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:03 PM

#

I see alright thank you

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:03 PM

#

frogapprove

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:43 PM

#

Uhhhhhh this looks cursed to me

#


fn get_buffer_usage_flags(device: &Device) -> vk::BufferUsageFlags {
    let mut usage = vk::BufferUsageFlags::SHADER_DEVICE_ADDRESS
        | vk::BufferUsageFlags::INDEX_BUFFER
        | vk::BufferUsageFlags::INDIRECT_BUFFER
        | vk::BufferUsageFlags::STORAGE_BUFFER
        | vk::BufferUsageFlags::STORAGE_TEXEL_BUFFER
        | vk::BufferUsageFlags::TRANSFER_DST
        | vk::BufferUsageFlags::TRANSFER_SRC
        | vk::BufferUsageFlags::UNIFORM_BUFFER
        | vk::BufferUsageFlags::UNIFORM_TEXEL_BUFFER
        | vk::BufferUsageFlags::VERTEX_BUFFER;
    if device.is_extension_enabled(ExtensionID::AccelerationStructure) {
        usage |= vk::BufferUsageFlags::ACCELERATION_STRUCTURE_STORAGE_KHR
            | vk::BufferUsageFlags::ACCELERATION_STRUCTURE_BUILD_INPUT_READ_ONLY_KHR;
    }
    if device.is_extension_enabled(ExtensionID::RayTracingPipeline) {
        usage |= vk::BufferUsageFlags::SHADER_BINDING_TABLE_KHR;
    }

    usage
}

#

Is this okay for performance?

#

I mean if it works it works but I don't see the reason why setting all flags would be needed

#

Unless this is another trick of BDA where you just don't give a shit and it just somehow works out

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:46 PM

#

for buffers it doesnt matter

#

so might as well simplify the api and remove the parameter entirely

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:47 PM

#

night charm for buffers it doesnt matter

Damn

#

So all that extra validation that I had in my API was pretty much useless

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:47 PM

#

KEKW

#

rip

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:48 PM

#

WGPU kept complaining about it so I wrapped it up

#

Still surprised how there's no perf impact

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:48 PM

#

*on desktop

#

*on half decent drivers

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 9:49 PM

#

Eh good enough

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:49 PM

#

yeah

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 9:54 PM

#

I think uniform buffers could be different on nvidia

#

Though not sure if the flags matter for it

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 9:55 PM

#

yeah the flags shouldnt matter

#

but when using them in a shader they have a fast path yes

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 10:05 PM

#

night charm but when using them in a shader they have a fast path yes

They have tiny super fast buffers

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 10:05 PM

#

yeah but its more of a cache not a permanent memory location afaik

#

so the usage flags shouldnt affect it much

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 10:05 PM

#

With and is just memory accessed with a different instructions with goes through a dedicated read only cache afaik

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 10:05 PM

#

yep

hybrid pilot Jul 13, 2023, 10:06 PM

#

night charm yeah but its more of a cache not a permanent memory location afaik

AFAIK they both have a dedicated cache and cbuf which is memory

#

I guess the driver loads the cbufs

#

And if it runs out of them uses the cache

night charm Jul 13, 2023, 10:06 PM

#

maybe

#

i dont know enough of those details

languid fern Jul 13, 2023, 11:27 PM

#

I'm going to re-expose the usages (for my downstream fork for custom engine) just because I can't trust my 1050 drivers kek

#

I would rather do that then change my whole API and then realize that I fucked up and gotta re-expose them again

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 1:14 AM

#

@night charm Quick question, is there a way for me to modify the subresource range of a given image?

#

I can't seem to change base level + base layer

#

which I kinda need

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 1:38 AM

#

iron shadow <@190522027440865280> Quick question, is there a way for me to modify the subres...

I actually submitted a PR for that lel

#

For image views you mean?

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 1:44 AM

#

Yeah

#

Image views @languid fern

#

kekw am i illterate

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 1:44 AM

#

Oh then yea I submitted a PR for dat

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 1:46 AM

#

hmm what to do until then

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 1:48 AM

#

It's already merged kek

#

https://github.com/NotAPenguin0/phobos-rs/commit/b5ae70285730eb95c20f1b124b7ede1aa30cca49

GitHub

change: move image constructor to CreateInfo pattern · NotAPenguin0...

#

Wait no wtf

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 1:49 AM

#

is it merged...?

#

KEKW

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 1:49 AM

#

https://github.com/NotAPenguin0/phobos-rs/blob/master/src/resource/image.rs#L92-L107C2

GitHub

phobos-rs/src/resource/image.rs at master · NotAPenguin0/phobos-rs

Vulkan abstraction library for Rust. Contribute to NotAPenguin0/phobos-rs development by creating an account on GitHub.

#

Yes yes it's merged

#

I got confused for a sec lol

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 1:54 AM

#

Call me tripping

#

but

#

pub fn view(
        &self,
        create_info: ImageViewCreateInfo,
    ) -> Result<ImageView> {
        let ImageViewCreateInfo {
            aspect,
            view_type,
            base_mip_level,
            level_count,
            base_layer,
            layers
        } = create_info;

        // TODO: Validate args
        let info = vk::ImageViewCreateInfo {
            s_type: vk::StructureType::IMAGE_VIEW_CREATE_INFO,
            p_next: std::ptr::null(),
            flags: Default::default(),
            image: self.handle,
            view_type,
            format: self.format,
            components: vk::ComponentMapping::default(),
            subresource_range: vk::ImageSubresourceRange {
                aspect_mask: aspect,
                base_mip_level,
                level_count: match level_count {
                    Some(count) => count,
                    None => self.mip_levels - base_mip_level,
                },
                base_array_layer: base_layer,
                layer_count: match layers {
                    Some(count) => count,
                    None => self.layers - base_layer,
                },
            },
        };

        let view_handle = unsafe { self.device.create_image_view(&info, None)? };
        #[cfg(feature = "log-objects")]
        trace!("Created new VkImageView {view_handle:p}");
        Ok(ImageView(Arc::new(ImgView {
            device: self.device.clone(),
            handle: view_handle,
            image: self.handle,
            format: self.format,
            samples: self.samples,
            aspect,
            size: self.size,
            base_level: 0,
            level_count: self.mip_levels,
            base_layer: 0,
            layer_count: self.layers,
            id: ImgView::get_new_id(),
        })))
    }

#

base_level: 0 is defaulted to zero

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 1:55 AM

#

Oh yea bug

#

Most probably

#

When I implemented it I only changed the subresource_range values I completely forgot about ImgView kek

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 1:56 AM

#

bleakekw

#

lets see if i can do a hack

#

god images are annoying asf

#

im getting so many flags errors 💀

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 1:57 AM

#

Oh bruh actually

#

Validation errors?

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 1:58 AM

#

#

why :(

#

but yeah

#

VUID-vkCmdBlitImage-dstImageLayout-00227 ] Object 0: handle = 0x26c8cceefd0, type = VK_OBJECT_TYPE_COMMAND_BUFFER; | MessageID = 0xad2bdfa6 | vkCmdBlitImage: Layout for VkImage 0x9fde6b0000000014[Unnamed Image] is VK_IMAGE_LAYOUT_TRANSFER_DST_OPTIMAL but can only be VK_IMAGE_LAYOUT_GENERAL or VK_IMAGE_LAYOUT_GENERAL. The Vulkan spec states: dstImageLayout must be VK_IMAGE_LAYOUT_TRANSFER_DST_OPTIMAL or VK_IMAGE_LAYOUT_GENERAL (https://vulkan.lunarg.com/doc/view/1.3.250.1/windows/1.3-extensions/vkspec.html#VUID-vkCmdBlitImage-dstImageLayout-00227)

#

"maybe changing the flags will work" (it breaks it more)

#

it seems like the issue down to the fact that

#

base_layer isn't being set

#

KEKW

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 2:02 AM

#

Damn

#

I thought it'd at least tell you or something kek

#

Yea alright I'll submit a bug fix PR

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 2:02 AM

#

as it is defaulting to zero

#

which would explain why i'm also getting that texture

#

i think there is anothe property we need too

#

@languid fern base_level + base_layer. Those two aren't being set whatsoever kek

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 2:03 AM

#

Yep

#

I implemented that for the subresource range

#

But again I forgor to put it for the ImgView wrapper

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 2:03 AM

#

forgor

#

"this wouldn't have gone through with test cases" 🤓

#

actually tests can't even help here KEKW

#

well idfk what to do then. hmmmmmm disable mips then try to get normal textures working

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 2:04 AM

#

this wouldn't have gone wrong if I didn't decide to code at 5 am

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 2:04 AM

#

languid fern this wouldn't have gone wrong if I didn't decide to code at 5 am

real

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 2:11 AM

#

https://github.com/NotAPenguin0/phobos-rs/issues/65

GitHub

Small issue with ImgView wrapper when using non 0 base layer/base l...

There might be a bug on lines 343-346 in image.rs due to the fact that we don't set the arguments of the created ImgView based on the given create info. https://github.com/NotAPenguin0/phobos-r...

#

It's such a dumb bug as well kek

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 2:22 AM

#

eh who cares

#

tbf you had to go through a lot of defaults KEKW

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 2:27 AM

#

@iron shadow Can you do me a favor and check if there's this when you go to the phobos-rs repo?

#

I hope it's a thing only locally vislbe otherwise that'd be annoying as fuck

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 2:28 AM

#

let me see

#

no

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 2:28 AM

#

Cool

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 2:29 AM

#

I think we should uh

#

wait nvm we already are

#

I was gonna say avoid using hardcoded stuff and instead put it all into our structs

#

then expose some method that will let you straight up send the struct them without phobos doing any magic to it

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 2:30 AM

#

Like raw VK structs?

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 2:49 AM

#

yeah

night charm Jul 14, 2023, 6:16 AM

#

Oops that is missing

#

Anyway I have been thinking about proper tests but it’s hard

night charm Jul 14, 2023, 6:24 AM

#

iron shadow then expose some method that will let you straight up send the struct them witho...

Fyi I would rather not do this and instead expose all parameters in Phobos

iron shadow Jul 14, 2023, 11:18 AM

#

night charm Anyway I have been thinking about proper tests but it’s hard

Tbfh I feel like making more examples would be sufficient. Many parts of the examples don’t sufficiently cover all of phobos’ feature sets. So it’s why many small things just fall through cracks and holes

night charm Jul 14, 2023, 1:55 PM

#

Yeah that might also be a thing

#

But running examples is more effort than running automated tests

languid fern Jul 14, 2023, 3:42 PM

#

Right

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 8:16 AM

#

fixed the image view issue @iron shadow @languid fern

languid fern Jul 15, 2023, 8:16 AM

#

Awesome

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 8:17 AM

#

im not getting any validation layer errors on my end when resizing in the samples

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 8:37 AM

#

first time im ever using this feature lmao

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 12:45 PM

#

night charm im not getting any validation layer errors on my end when resizing in the sample...

You aren’t? bleakekw

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 12:45 PM

#

no

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 12:45 PM

#

I’ll try updating my drivers

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 12:46 PM

#

your pc has a skill issue clearly

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 12:46 PM

#

KEKW

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 12:47 PM

#

krill issue

#

pengu could you do me a lil favor

#

do you have bistro or sponza

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 12:54 PM

#

Isn’t Sponza on the gltf examples site?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 12:54 PM

#

probably somewhere in my downloads folder

#

@limber rapids uploading rn

#

📎 Sponza.7z

#

i have the entire gltf sample repo cloned in my downloads apparently

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 12:56 PM

#

could you do this real quicc

#

#general message

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 12:56 PM

#

i dont have an engine

#

KEKW

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 12:56 PM

#

ebic

#

your terrain thingy doesn't count as a rendering engine?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 1:00 PM

#

it doesnt load models yet

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 1:34 PM

#

Penguin do you have anything to compile glsl shaders?

#

Or do you just use glslc manually?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 1:47 PM

#

not in phobos

#

i use shaderc

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 1:48 PM

#

I see

#

Guess I'll make a build.rs that builds them

#

Then I can include_bytes the spv

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 1:51 PM

#

i do something like that yeah

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 3:23 PM

#

@night charm This is weird wtf

#

I'm getting the error despite a driver update

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 3:24 PM

#

that is weird

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 3:24 PM

#

 ERROR phobos::core::debug             > [VALIDATION]: VUID-VkSwapchainCreateInfoKHR-imageExtent-01274 (2094043421): Validation Error: 
[ VUID-VkSwapchainCreateInfoKHR-imageExtent-01274 ] Object 0: handle = 0x1dc6800e4d0, type = VK_OBJECT_TYPE_DEVICE; | MessageID = 0x7cd
0911d | vkCreateSwapchainKHR() called with imageExtent = (1748,768), which is outside the bounds returned by vkGetPhysicalDeviceSurface
CapabilitiesKHR(): currentExtent = (768,768), minImageExtent = (768,768), maxImageExtent = (768,768). The Vulkan spec states: imageExte
nt must be between minImageExtent and maxImageExtent, inclusive, where minImageExtent and maxImageExtent are members of the VkSurfaceCa
pabilitiesKHR structure returned by vkGetPhysicalDeviceSurfaceCapabilitiesKHR for the surface (https://vulkan.lunarg.com/doc/view/1.3.2
50.1/windows/1.3-extensions/vkspec.html#VUID-VkSwapchainCreateInfoKHR-imageExtent-01274)

#

I'm on a newer Vulkan version

#

that could be why?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 3:24 PM

#

this error makes no sense to me though

#

if you resize then minExtent/maxExtent should allow that new size

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 3:25 PM

#

bleakekw

#

winit related issue then?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 3:25 PM

#

I dont think so

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 3:26 PM

#

this is odd huh

#

eh well it works resizing. ill just ignore it KEKW

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 3:27 PM

#

if it works its probably fine

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 3:29 PM

#

Hmmm so for descriptor indexing, is it really just an array of images that you can submit to your shader?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 3:29 PM

#

yes

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 3:30 PM

#

oh KEKW well i need a way to "compress" the indices of my images for my shader glsl then
That probably doesn't make sense but like if my asset gives me something like:
0 -> Image
4 -> Image
It should go into
0 -> Image
1 -> Image
Because arrays can't have empty space between them

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 3:30 PM

#

not the entire array needs to be bound but currently i dont support leaving gaps

#

descriptor indexing allows for those gaps technically but i dont recommend it

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 3:32 PM

#

yeah sounds like a bad idea for undefined behavior

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:11 PM

#

https://gitlab.com/pac85/GameKernel/-/commit/9eae73a981743c681dd77fc6f1938f68e22cb16b

let vtx_code = build_shader!{
    path: "data/shaders/test/vert.glsl",
    stage: "vertex",
};

#

Doing it with build_rs didn't work out for me because my engine is a library and I found no simple way of storing a file from build.rs and accessing it later.
This works regardless

#

It can be even used by the user of the engine

#

I don't mind anyone borrowing this, it was rather boring to write

#

(Some things could be improved ofc, like not using format for paths lol)

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:20 PM

#

Looks pretty neat

#

I might use it

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:23 PM

#

night charm I might use it

I guess I could make a separate crate

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:23 PM

#

Its pretty copy pasteable I think KEKW

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:23 PM

#

Yeah lol it's not much code

languid fern Jul 15, 2023, 4:28 PM

#

Ooh yea that's definitely interesting

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:31 PM

#

Btw penguin is it possible to get access to descriptor sets directly? Since you currently don't support updating them for image arrays I though I could temporarily just take my old code to do it

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:47 PM

#

i actually made it fully private a few releases ago

#

do you need to frequently update a large array?

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:50 PM

#

night charm do you need to frequently update a large array?

Well yeah you know for bindless

languid fern Jul 15, 2023, 4:50 PM

#

Question: Is support for mobile GPUs not intended at all?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:50 PM

#

yeah but do the actual images inside that array change often

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:50 PM

#

languid fern Question: Is support for mobile GPUs not intended at *all*?

not soon in any case

#

a lot of stuff depends on modern features and assumes dynamic rendering is available

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:51 PM

#

night charm yeah but do the actual images inside that array change often

The thing is that recreating descriptor sets that large is expensive so no matter how often it happens it just can't be done during drawing

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:51 PM

#

They dont get recreated if the contents are the same

#

So it should only happen when you load in a new texture

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:51 PM

#

Yeah but say I add a new model, so I need a new texture in the array

#

Sure it happens every few frames, but basically it means stuttering

#

Unless I did it asynchronously I guess?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:52 PM

#

You can hack around doing it asynchronously but theres probably a good argument for implementing updates for arrays at least

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:52 PM

#

Yeah

#

Updating just an element is super fast

#

Basically a memcpy inside radv iirc

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:53 PM

#

I think this should be simple enough to do without changing any of the public api

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:53 PM

#

Mmm I'll take a look

#

When I have time, maybe I can make another PR

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:53 PM

#

Well maybe not simple but doable with some small refactors

#

Sure

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:54 PM

#

I suppose sync is not handled for that kind of resource right?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:54 PM

#

Yeah theres no sync for descriptor sets

#

Ah that might be an issue

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:54 PM

#

Great

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:54 PM

#

night charm Ah that might be an issue

Why?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:54 PM

#

Well the naive method of doing an update would mean youre overwriting the set while its possibly in use on the gpu

#

So you'd probably need to double buffer it

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:55 PM

#

Yeah there are ectentions to do that "safely"

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:55 PM

#

Ooh, nice

#

If desktop support for that is good we can easily enable that

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:55 PM

#

Like "nothing will explode so long as the shader is not accessing that stuff"

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:55 PM

#

Right

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:55 PM

#

Wait that's not safe lol

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:55 PM

#

Good enough

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:55 PM

#

I might have been misleading

#

Let me find it

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:56 PM

#

Yeah

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 4:56 PM

#

penguin are you still on vacation

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:56 PM

#

I got back last night

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 4:56 PM

#

good

#

then I commission you something

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:56 PM

#

nervous

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 4:56 PM

#

Would you mind implementing this: https://github.com/EpicGames/UnrealEngine/tree/463443057fb97f1af0d2951705324ce8818d2a55/Engine/Shaders/Private/VirtualShadowMaps
plus SMRT and PCSS kthxbye

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:57 PM

#

bleakekw

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 4:57 PM

#

I promise it'll look good

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:57 PM

#

Yeah sure give me 5 minutes

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 4:58 PM

#

limber rapids Would you mind implementing this: <https://github.com/EpicGames/UnrealEngine/tre...

You don't need ocss

#

UE does raynarching through the shadow nap

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 4:58 PM

#

ye but light leaking

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 4:58 PM

#

Yeah looks kinda nice

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 4:58 PM

#

bleakekw

#

My idea was using blocker info to deduce optimal cone size, ray step and clipmap distance

#

if blocker is big then ray step can be big

languid fern Jul 15, 2023, 5:01 PM

#

limber rapids if blocker is big then ray step can be big

Ohh kinda like sphere tracing in ray marching?

#

Kinda but not kinda

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 5:01 PM

#

I have a beautiful drawing

#

hold on

#

#1090390868449558618 message

#

There it is

#

admire my flawless drawing skills

languid fern Jul 15, 2023, 5:02 PM

#

Wait but question

#

How would the ray stop at the plane if the shadow depth buffer value was overwritten

#

Unless it's not just normal shadow mapping

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 5:03 PM

#

You don't overwrite the shadow map

languid fern Jul 15, 2023, 5:03 PM

#

And somehow retains info about stuff that has been obstructed

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 5:03 PM

#

Uhm I think you just need the VK_DESCRIPTOR_BINDING_UPDATE_AFTER_BIND_BIT flag to do what I said

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 5:03 PM

#

You shrimply sample the shadow and then raymarch towards the blocker

#

The farther away you are the less chance there is for the ray to hit the blocker

#

thus contact hardening

languid fern Jul 15, 2023, 5:04 PM

#

Ohhh I see now

#

Oh yea that's pretty smart

#

I might implement that

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 5:04 PM

#

There's only one issue

#

light leaking bleakekw

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 5:04 PM

#

hybrid pilot Uhm I think you just need the VK_DESCRIPTOR_BINDING_UPDATE_AFTER_BIND_BIT flag t...

easy enough, we can already add flags to descriptor bindings

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 5:04 PM

#

Thoug When entries are overwritten it's kinda unsafe and you need to track what could be potentially used by in flight work

#

Do you think that should be up to the user?

#

I wonder how other graphs handle this

languid fern Jul 15, 2023, 5:05 PM

#

@limber rapids #general I don't want to floos Phobos thread again bleakekw

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 5:05 PM

#

ye true KEKW

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 5:05 PM

#

We can support just appending elements I guess

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 5:05 PM

#

Mmm that's too limited

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 5:05 PM

#

it handles the case of new textures being added

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 5:05 PM

#

Yeah but eventually you run out of slots

#

Mmm

#

I guess we should just ask one of the many authors of render graphs what they do?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 5:06 PM

#

onto #1025797519550185533 we go

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 5:07 PM

#

Do I ask or do you ask?

#

Makes more sense doe me to do it I guess

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 5:07 PM

#

You can go ahead, you seem to know more about the specific requirements

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 5:07 PM

#

👍

#

OK dunno if you read

#

But basically everything is bindless for them

#

And any live resource exists within the descriptor set. So long as the resource lifetime is handled correctly so is the descriptor set then I guess

#

That makes a lot of sense

#

I might have already been explained this. It doesn't sound new to me. In any case this is not how ohobos does things which is unfortunate

#

But not all hope is lost

#

I guess bindless resourced can be their own thing and work that way

#

So the rest of the api remains the same?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 5:23 PM

#

Hmm that is an interesting approach yeah

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 5:26 PM

#

I guess I'll dive deeper into your codebase when I have time and see if I can come up with a sane way if implementing this

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 5:26 PM

#

yeah ill do some thinking and tinkering too

#

Its also possible to solve the sync issue by storing a frame id in the lookup info that loops around N frames

#

So you implicitly n-buffer them by abusing the cache system

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 5:40 PM

#

Mmm

#

BTW penguin if it makes sense for you to use descriptor buffers let me know, dunno if you read the discussion over there

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 5:44 PM

#

yeah descriptor buffers are not out of the question

#

i just havent had the time to look at them properly

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 5:51 PM

#

night charm i just havent had the time to look at them properly

Really simple. You get a pointer to the raw memory with the descriptor sets and functions that tell you where and what do writ to them

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 5:51 PM

#

Seems easy enough yeah

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 5:52 PM

#

So your resourced store that bit of data onf offset in them

#

And then you just memcpy

#

(This is what ravd does interbslyk AFAIK, and AFAIK the extension was just valve wanting to expose this)

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 6:03 PM

#

yeah i imagine its already done like this internally anyway

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 11:23 PM

#

oh no

#

descriptor indexing is broke

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:23 PM

#

if that's the case the world will end tomorrow

#

whenever tomorrow is in your timezone bleakekw

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 11:24 PM

#

it's joever

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:24 PM

#

what's the issue

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 11:24 PM

#

an unwrap error too bleakekw

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:24 PM

#

that I can't help with

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 11:24 PM

#

some phobos error that mostly is because of incorrect usage but i can't pin point why

#

info.layout = *self.current_set_layouts.get(index as usize).unwrap();

bleakekw

#

says it fails if it couldn't find the desciprtor set/bind

#

but the issue is, this isn't one of the expected errors

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:26 PM

#

are you actually using the descriptor in the shader

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 11:26 PM

#

yes i think so

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:26 PM

#

the compiler will optimize out any descriptors you don't use

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 11:26 PM

#

layout (set = 1, binding = 2) uniform texture2D texArray[];

Yes?

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:26 PM

#

this is a declaration

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:26 PM

#

No but are you actually accessing that array

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:26 PM

#

I mean usage wise

#

are you using the descriptor in a way that meaningfully contributes to the output

#

i.e it writes something bleakekw

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:27 PM

#

This could be a bug don’t get me wrong but make sure it’s not optimized out yeah

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 11:27 PM

#

how do i gaslight

#

the compiler into keeping it KEKW

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:27 PM

#

you don't

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:27 PM

#

What does phobos do with descriptors from shaders?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:28 PM

#

output += 0.001 * texture(…);

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 11:28 PM

#

okok

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:28 PM

#

hybrid pilot What does phobos do with descriptors from shaders?

Generates the pipeline layout

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:28 PM

#

night charm Generates the pipeline layout

I see

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:28 PM

#

output = texture(...)
output = something else

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:28 PM

#

And does it check it?

#

Because like it is really annoying when you comment out stuff for debugging but stuff panics

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:29 PM

#

Things easily covered by vulkan validation are usually not checked again, but I know what you mean

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:29 PM

#

With vulkano it was basically impossible to comment out anything

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:29 PM

#

It might be reasonable to add methods for optionally binding something

#

e.g. bind_xxx_if_exists(…)

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 11:30 PM

#

oh shooot i need to input samplers too i forgor

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:30 PM

#

Though I guess it is illegal for vulkan to have gaps so you'd also need to bind dummy descriptor sets?

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:31 PM

#

Wouldn’t work with gaps no, but if the shader only goes up to say binding 4

#

You can optionally bind to binding 5 and add it back later

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:31 PM

#

Wait wat

#

why no gaps? thonk

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:31 PM

#

Dunno

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:31 PM

#

I don't think that's illegal

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:31 PM

#

You can leave gaps in binding numbers I think yeah

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:31 PM

#

But I've seen many times the code to fill the gaps with a dummy ds

#

Not hard to do

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:32 PM

#

night charm You can leave gaps in binding numbers I think yeah

Yeah

#

It's the sets

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:32 PM

#

ye but you need to enable robustness which is annoying

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:32 PM

#

Ah set numbers, fair enough

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:32 PM

#

Then you need dummy desc layouts

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:32 PM

#

night charm Ah set numbers, fair enough

Welly out can have gaps in the shader, the problem is when you bind afaik

#

So not really a problem after all

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:33 PM

#

Right you’d need to bind them one by one

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:33 PM

#

Easy to work around

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:33 PM

#

It is yeah

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:34 PM

#

My lazy way was to bind a random ds lol, but I guess it would be wiser to keep a dummy empty ds aroundb

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:35 PM

#

you can shrimply create a desc layout with no bindings for each gap in the numbers

#

And not bind any sets to that layout

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:36 PM

#

That too

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:36 PM

#

Even easier

#

I though you needed to bind something

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:37 PM

#

To be honest I'm reading the spec right now and I'm not entirely sure

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:37 PM

#

Even easier: if the shader compiler optimizes it out then this already happens in Phobos, because then spirv-cross doesn’t report the binding at all

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:37 PM

#

But at least you can definitely bind the same dummy set everywhere

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:37 PM

#

I night just not be remembering and it night have been a dummy descriptor set layout

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:37 PM

#

I'm trying to find the part of the spec

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:37 PM

#

@iron shadow does it work now?

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 11:38 PM

#

not yet

#

i got side tracked

#

KEKW

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:38 PM

#

focus son

iron shadow Jul 15, 2023, 11:38 PM

#

im trying but im too deep into rewriting the material system

night charm Jul 15, 2023, 11:39 PM

#

I see

#

KEKW

#

Well ima sleep but lmk how it goes

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:40 PM

#

@hybrid pilot you are indeed correct

#

But you can bind the same dummy set over and over

#

I'm still waiting for the moment danny realizes what I'd told him days ago about textures in RT

#

bleakekw

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:44 PM

#

limber rapids <@137076228875091968> you are indeed correct

Weird, I'm usually wrong

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:45 PM

#

I'm always wrong bleakekw

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:46 PM

#

Paradox

#

Are you wrong about being wrong?

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:47 PM

#

Oh no

#

you opened a black hole

#

what have you done

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:47 PM

#

I didn't do it

#

You did

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:47 PM

#

fair

#

what have I done

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:48 PM

#

Now we need a mathematician to create a logic system where your sentence is well defined

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:49 PM

#

We'll leave the proof of that system to the reader as an exercise

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:49 PM

#

Problem fixed ✅

#

(BTW you can't prove that a system has no contradictions)

limber rapids Jul 15, 2023, 11:50 PM

#

ye

#

you can't prove that math can't prove itself

#

which is sad

#

smh godel's theorem

#

if he didn't make that theorem we'd be proving a lot more things

hybrid pilot Jul 15, 2023, 11:51 PM

#

Lol

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 12:16 AM

#

limber rapids I'm always wrong <:bleakekw:1082598350303539240>

what have you done.......

#

Also related to phobos:

#

Do you know exaclty which features / extensions cause renderdoc to crash

#

Cause if they're optional (like bda) I could just remove them in my internal fork

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 12:18 AM

#

BDA works great in renderdoc

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 12:19 AM

#

Oh huh hm

#

It keeps crashing for me

#

I'll have to look into that

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 12:20 AM

#

languid fern It keeps crashing for me

ray tracing is on

#

KEKW

#

make sure you explicitly disable that

#

unless phobos has already done that

#

I know renderdoc doesn't do RT so it crashes when it is on

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 12:21 AM

#

I mean when I run the app outside renderdocs it's fine

#

And it's not RT because I have a 1050 bleakekw

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 12:21 AM

#

hmmm

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 12:21 AM

#

Eh I'll look more deeply in my logs

#

Should be something somewhere

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 12:22 AM

#

let me pull up the phobos ext

#

https://github.com/NotAPenguin0/phobos-rs/blob/master/src/core/device.rs

GitHub

phobos-rs/src/core/device.rs at master · NotAPenguin0/phobos-rs

Vulkan abstraction library for Rust. Contribute to NotAPenguin0/phobos-rs development by creating an account on GitHub.

#

Uhh

#

make sure acceleration structs are off?

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 12:23 AM

#

Don't even have support for them either lol

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 12:23 AM

#

renderdoc moment bleakekw

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 12:24 AM

#

Eh I'll look into it later

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 12:24 AM

#

worst case get nsight
i basically forgotten what renderdoc looks like this point bleakekw

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 12:24 AM

#

Yea I just really like renderdoc for debugging since I've gotten used to it

#

(I could put that on my resume)

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 12:26 AM

#

RenderDoc is a million times nicer than nsight

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 12:26 AM

#

it probably is but it doesn't support ray tracing :(

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 12:26 AM

#

BDA is broken beyond any usefulness on Nsight

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 12:26 AM

#

ya but im stuck with it

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 12:26 AM

#

me too bleakekw

#

I usually just use GL_EXT_debug_printf tbh

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 12:27 AM

#

GL_EXT_debug_printf?

#

wtf is this a shader version of print

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 12:27 AM

#

printf in shaders

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 12:27 AM

#

bleakekw i never knew bout it

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 12:29 AM

#

Least cursed graphics extension

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 12:31 AM

#

fellas

#

should i submit my material information i.e. albedo texture index in the descriptor

#

wait wrong channel

#

KEKW

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 12:39 AM

#

So, tomorrow I guess we can discuss with penguin how much he likes daxa's approach. It could be challenging to do it without breaking APIs which is why I'm thinking of making something that sits alongside the existing stuff

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 12:43 AM

#

Oh yea can you like fill me in on what you guys are even talking about

#

I don't really understand what it is you're spying on in the first place KEKW

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 12:44 AM

#

languid fern I don't really understand what it is you're spying on in the first place <:KEKW:...

Bindless. Imagine creating a resource, then just sending it's ID or address to the shader and being able to access it

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 12:45 AM

#

Oh so like descriptor indexing basically?

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 12:45 AM

#

Descriptor indexing is how you do it for images

#

Bda for buffers

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 12:46 AM

#

Ah I see alright

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 12:48 AM

#

hybrid pilot So, tomorrow I guess we can discuss with penguin how much he likes daxa's approa...

KEKW I prefer when i can just implement it myself

#

why would Daxa's approach be better? im confused

#

ah it generalizes it across every resource buffer, image, etc.

#

yeah i like that idea

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 1:00 AM

#

iron shadow <:KEKW:666849321462792234> I prefer when i can just implement it myself

You can't because descriptor sets are managed by Phobos

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 1:03 AM

#

oh yeah true

#

wait so does daxa generalize the process across every resource?

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 1:06 AM

#

Yeah

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 1:07 AM

#

ooh that's cool

#

but would make my suffering redundant :(

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 1:07 AM

#

Ehy

#

What are you working on?

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 1:07 AM

#

i just finished getting my bdas working and now working on bindless textures

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 1:08 AM

#

I mean I suppose the current stuff would still work

#

Also this is just me saying stuff we'll see what penguin says

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 1:08 AM

#

it would but the urge to recode it KEKW

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 1:09 AM

#

It would only make it easier

#

It's late here btw

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 1:09 AM

#

yeah it would sounds really nice

#

tbh I just want barrier management & placement by the rendergraph but i could be tripping and that is not possible KEKW

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 7:54 AM

#

languid fern Do you know exaclty which features / extensions cause renderdoc to crash

dynamicstate3 is not available but it shouldnt enable that if it isnt

#

same with the rt extensions

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 9:50 AM

#

Penguin yesterday I asked many questions about daxa. So there every resource is just an handle you pass around. Now the way resource mapping works on their render graph is that it creates and updates a uniform buffer with BDAs and indices for you. Do you think that would make sense doe Phobos?

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 10:22 AM

#

afaik in daxa the render graph manages and allocates all resources

#

If we do this it’s essentially a rewrite of a lot of stuff

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 10:36 AM

#

Idk if this would help but i camacross this

#

https://youtu.be/nC-MvEaVs4g

YouTube

Vulkan

Vulkanised 2023: Setting up a bindless rendering pipeline

This talk was presented at Vulkanised 2023 (Feb 7-9, Munich Germany). Vulkanised is organised by the Khronos Group and is the largest event dedicated to 3D developers using the Vulkan API. The event provides a unique opportunity to bring the Vulkan developer community together to exchange ideas, solve problems and help steer the future develo...

▶ Play video

#

By traverse research who made the kajiya rust rendererer.

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 10:45 AM

#

night charm If we do this it’s essentially a rewrite of a lot of stuff

Mmm no I'm not really proposing that. The thing is that currently Phobos has a concept of virtual resources and physical resources and a way of binding one to the other. Now with bindless there is really no such thing as binding, so the semantics of that operation in the case of daxa is sending the handles to the shader

#

Though I suppose that's not necessarily something we need. After all resources handled by the graph wouldn't be bindless, so I guess it would be enough for Phobos to have a way of saying "bind the bindless descriptor for images here" and then the user does whatever they want to get the handles up in the shader. Then all Phobos would have to do is expose some pool of bindless resources and keep a descriptor set up to date

#

Dunno let me know your thoughts

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 10:56 AM

#

hybrid pilot Though I suppose that's not necessarily something we need. After all resources h...

The problem there is that then the host has absolutely no knowledge of that is being used on the device so this will always allow use after free and therefore would be unsafe.

#

Though if use after free is already possible in Phobos I guess nobody fares anyway

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 10:59 AM

#

hybrid pilot Mmm no I'm not really proposing that. The thing is that currently Phobos has a c...

those virtual resources are mostly intended for attachments and things that need sync, imo its not a problem for bindless

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 10:59 AM

#

Yeah I get it

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:00 AM

#

i think the best way to go for now is to keep it simple and figure out how to update large descriptor sets instead of recreating them

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:03 AM

#

night charm i think the best way to go for now is to keep it simple and figure out how to up...

Yeah so, I guess having a BindlessPool that would contain a descriptor set. Then you can allocate Bindless<Actualimage> from it. It would automatically update the descriptor set. When they go out of scope it would free itself from the pool wgich internally keeps tack of empty slots so it can reuse them. Then the user can get indices from it and send them to a shader however they want

#

Sounds good?

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:03 AM

#

hmm

#

the thing i dont like about this is how it enforces some kind of layout in the shader (you need a matching bindless descriptor set in the shader)

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:04 AM

#

I was thinking of having .bind_bindless_pool

#

And you'd decide where to bind it

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:05 AM

#

hmm

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:05 AM

#

But the actual layout of the pool would be enforced

#

Like of the descriptor set itseld

#

Which makes sense to me though

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:05 AM

#

I was thinking something like

#

We keep the public api the same, with bind_sampled_image_array

#

And then behind the scenes something like

#

if bindings.descriptor_count > update_treshold {
  let new_set = find_unused_set_to_update(bindings);
  update_set(new_set, bindings);
  return new_set;
}

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:07 AM

#

Mmm what would that do?

#

The thing is

#

With bind image array you always pass all of the images right?

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:08 AM

#

Right

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:08 AM

#

And if you have thousands or millions it won't ever work

#

So the descriptor set update has to happen when you create the resource

#

Not when you bind it

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:09 AM

#

When would you have millions of textures froghorror

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:09 AM

#

(Also I'd keep the current api regardless)

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:09 AM

#

night charm When would you have millions of textures <:froghorror:1105248469251276830>

Lol

#

But I mean if it is 4096

#

Just iterating them has a cost

#

And the whole point of bindless is not worrying about binding

#

Which is why you get that layout requirement

#

You are not managing bindings per shader

#

But globally

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:10 AM

#

hmm yeah

#

a global bindless table probably makes more sense

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:10 AM

#

Also the only requirement is that you have an image array

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 11:10 AM

#

hybrid pilot Just iterating them has a cost

Does it?

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:10 AM

#

also allows for better and more seamless bindless support

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:11 AM

#

Yeah

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:12 AM

#

Then theres mostly just the question of how to handle resource lifetimes

#

e.g. what if you register a texture as a bindless texture but you then want to deallocate it

#

Does the bindless manager own the resources?

#

Or do we somehow signal this destruction

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 11:15 AM

#

oh shit

#

it does matter

#

wtf

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:16 AM

#

night charm Or do we somehow signal this destruction

Well I think it would be easier to make it own it

#

That was the idea behind by Bindless<T> wrapper

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 11:16 AM

#

why are CPUs so slow

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:16 AM

#

Would definitely be easier yeah

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:16 AM

#

night charm Would definitely be easier yeah

Signaling means something else owns it but cannot use it because it could be destroyed at any point

#

So it's just owned with extra steps

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:16 AM

#

Alright lets work out a more concrete api and see what we end up with

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:18 AM

#

night charm Alright lets work out a more concrete api and see what we end up with

So is it OK if I start working on this? Usually when you actuallybdo stuff a lot more problems arise

#

Though I don't have a ton of times so I can't promess I'll do it quickly

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:18 AM

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Yeah, can you make a PR with a draft of the design and work on it there?

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:19 AM

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My idea was, to make sure it is actually works, to have something using it in my engine before merging anything

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:19 AM

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night charm Yeah, can you make a PR with a draft of the design and work on it there?

Sure!

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:19 AM

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hybrid pilot My idea was, to make sure it is actually works, to have something using it in my...

Yeah, exactly

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:19 AM

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Otherwise it's all shiny and pretty but then it turns out it's not suitable for anything remotely real

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:20 AM

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The reason I'm asking for a rough outline is so its easier to figure out whats going on and help out

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 11:20 AM

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Just to get myself up to speed: this is about updating only textures that change inside the large bindless array, right?

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:20 AM

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Yeah sure

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:21 AM

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limber rapids Just to get myself up to speed: this is about updating only textures that change...

Yeah, and more first-class bindless support

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:21 AM

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limber rapids Just to get myself up to speed: this is about updating only textures that change...

Yeah, and also keeping a pool of resources bound at all times to when you need then "you just use them"

torn kettle Jul 16, 2023, 11:22 AM

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why "bound at all times"?

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:23 AM

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Well I mean in a descriptor set

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Not really bound

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 11:23 AM

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It doesnt need to be permanently bound no

torn kettle Jul 16, 2023, 11:23 AM

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ok

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 11:23 AM

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I misphrased it

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 1:58 PM

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I’m so confused what you guys talked about KEKW

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 3:19 PM

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Redesigning how Phobos handles bindless

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 3:19 PM

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And consequently how I handle bindless bleakekw

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 3:20 PM

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bleakekw

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 3:20 PM

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My plan was to leave rhre what is already there

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 3:20 PM

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Just use Phobos ™️

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 3:20 PM

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Or you mean in your own thing

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 3:20 PM

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If you port phobos to C++ I might consider it

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 3:20 PM

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hybrid pilot My plan was to leave rhre what is already there

Yeah no need to remove it, we can deprecate it later

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 3:20 PM

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I love api stability

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 3:20 PM

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limber rapids If you port phobos to C++ I might consider it

Its an improved rust port of a c++ lib I made bleakekw

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 3:21 PM

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Also the stuff to bind an image array could be useful for smaller image arrays

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 3:21 PM

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make phobos++ then

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improve the improvement

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 3:21 PM

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hybrid pilot Also the stuff to bind an image array could be useful for smaller image arrays

True

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 3:21 PM

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Like when you bind the mip chain as images

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 3:21 PM

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Yeah exactly

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 3:21 PM

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limber rapids improve the improvement

It would get worse

iron shadow Jul 16, 2023, 4:42 PM

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phobos++ bleakekw

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:28 PM

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night charm We keep the public api the same, with `bind_sampled_image_array`

Wait so bindless = arrays of images

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I thought it was more like an array of descriptors

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:29 PM

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yeah but you cant mix descriptor types in glsl

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so you need an array of images to index into

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:29 PM

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night charm yeah but you cant mix descriptor types in glsl

Wdym by mix?

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Like reinterpret one descriptor type as another?

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:30 PM

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well how would you do an "array of descriptors" in glsl

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you cant do that

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:30 PM

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An image is a descriptor though thonk

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Any resource you can bind is a descriptor

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:30 PM

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I see

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:30 PM

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yeah sure it is a descriptor

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:30 PM

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"descriptor" is fancy for pointer (with some metadata)

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:30 PM

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I thought descriptors where wrappers around those resources

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Yea right

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:30 PM

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but yeah you do need an array of images for bindless usually

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:31 PM

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ye, you could also say it's an array of descriptors that contain images

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:31 PM

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Ok so if I understand correctly for bindless you need arrays of images + bda

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:31 PM

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theres no BDA equivalent for images where you literally yeet a pointer

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yes

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:31 PM

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Ok and another thing

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Can you do something like this in GLSL

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layout(set = 0, binding = 0, r32ui) uniform image2D textures[];
layout(set = 0, binding = 0, rg32ui) uniform image2D textures[];
layout(set = 0, binding = 0, rgba32ui) uniform image2D textures[];

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So you don't have to make multiple descriptor sets for different types of images

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:34 PM

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why thonk

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you dont have to anyway

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:34 PM

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Oh how

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Can you just do something like

layout(set = 0, binding = 0) uniform image2D textures[];
``` directly?

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:35 PM

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this should work already but bindless is usually for textures nto storage images

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you can alias formats like that

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the way you wrote it initially

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:36 PM

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Oh okay

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Yea cause I was wondering

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If you're gonna do bindless from the start

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Why not stick with it throughout

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Unless there's a performance cost to doing such things, and doing non-bindless for some things proves to be more efficient

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:37 PM

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i find it not very useful for storage resources

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mostly for readonly stuff

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like textures

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:38 PM

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I'm trying to think what would require so many storage images

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:38 PM

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pretty much that yeah

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:39 PM

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GI probably

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 5:39 PM

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Pengiun do you think I need to create the pool type myself? I saw there is a Pool type but I don't see how ti make it do what I want

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:39 PM

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specifically Lumen-like SDFDDGI

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:40 PM

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limber rapids I'm trying to think what would require so many storage images

Nono I was just wondering if it was possible that's all

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:40 PM

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hybrid pilot Pengiun do you think I need to create the pool type myself? I saw there is a Poo...

DescriptorPool or the Pooled<T> stuff

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:40 PM

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In my engine I use like 3 storage textures per comp shader max

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 5:41 PM

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night charm `DescriptorPool` or the `Pooled<T>` stuff

Yeah I was looking into the pooled stuff but there is no way of telling it what to do when something is returned right?

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:41 PM

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not yet but its probably not hard to add

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 5:41 PM

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Mmm I see

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So no new types

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Which makes sense because some of the logic is in place

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:43 PM

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If all the logic is there then it'd be nice to fit it in there yeah

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But if not its totally fine to add new stuff

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Something like a BindlessPool

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 5:44 PM

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I see

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Thx

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I'll met you know if I encounter any roadblocks in rescuing pool

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Rn I can't work on it but later I should

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:46 PM

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So what's the main™️ plan for bindless at the moment?

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:46 PM

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implement some sort of caching for sampled images

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 5:47 PM

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Why caching

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:47 PM

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Register resources with a global bindless pool -> bind the pool when you want to use it -> this binds one descriptor set with all resource

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:47 PM

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iterating through all textures and updating the whole set at once is expensive

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:47 PM

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night charm Register resources with a global bindless pool -> bind the pool when you want to...

Makes sense

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Probably more performant than iterating through all resources and caching internally

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Most definitely more performant kek

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:47 PM

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hybrid pilot Why caching

I though tthat was the game plan? I got it wrong then

night charm Jul 16, 2023, 5:47 PM

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should be yeah

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:47 PM

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night charm Register resources with a global bindless pool -> bind the pool when you want to...

Makes sense yes

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:48 PM

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so:

create desc bindless pool

update resources when needed

bind pool
```?

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:48 PM

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Hol up

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doesn't this still require updating the whole set at once? thonk

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Or do you store "changes" as well in this bindless pool

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 5:48 PM

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languid fern so: ``` create desc bindless pool update resources when needed bind pool ```?

You allocate and release stuff from and to the pool, the pool internally maintains a ds up to date

languid fern Jul 16, 2023, 5:49 PM

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Ohh I see gotcha

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So I assume we're gonna need some sort of versioning system

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 5:49 PM

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limber rapids Or do you store "changes" as well in this bindless pool

The set it's just updated every time you allocate or release

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:49 PM

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So you update the whole thing, but different

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I get it, certainly better than updating it every frame

hybrid pilot Jul 16, 2023, 5:49 PM

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What do you mean the whole tjingb

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You can write individual entries

limber rapids Jul 16, 2023, 5:50 PM

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Ah ok

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even better

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Can you bind dummy descriptors?

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That requires robustness doesn't it?

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Or you could avoid doing that altogether and simply "promise" you won't use that descriptor anymore

#Phobos - Vulkan abstraction library in Rust