#SPA Issues - Indirect fire trajectory.

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

silent pagoda
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Nope. These SPAs are assault tanks that the devs initially forced into the SPA role.
The trajectory is correct and reflects the real operation of these vehicles. In fact, with the next updates they should remove the MIL system and make these tanks usable only for armor units at the cost of fuel.

If there is a need for SPAs in this game, then they should add REAL SPAs, with all the pros and cons.

modest pawn
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Like Trizio said, if they want SPA’s they need to add actual SPA’s even if they’re open top. Let’s not force tanks that don’t work that way into roles unmade for them

urban hazel
# silent pagoda Nope. These SPAs are assault tanks that the devs initially forced into the SPA r...

I understand your points but the flawed physics and trajectory make this tank fail to fill either roll. Both comments suggest neither have actually tried testing or seen how flawed they are. You are going to have a very hard time trying to use them as assaults tanks aswell I've tried. Unless you are going to meme it and drive it point blank range, because they are not correct or reflect any accuracy. You wont be able to use them as assault tanks efficiently either.

So far for both of your case you have an assault tank with an Artillery spotter, Artillery Operator and Artillery support, makes no sense to me.

edgy marsh
urban hazel
# edgy marsh I've used them in game and I haven't had much issue hitting stuff at longer rang...

From a competitive standpoint, tanks and infantry strategically hiding behind structures at far range will no longer be hittable due to the arc change. So the flexibility of helping armour crews when an stationary enemy tank is out repairing is very difficult. The old arc helped balanced the indestructible structures, bushes, trees buildings. Some linear maps are almost impossible to retake due to how linear they were and the protection they provided. The old SPA created a new dynamic to break what some call stale gameplay.

Medium engagements have you up against tanks with an almost hit scan trajectory and the fov to zoom. The SPA now doesn't have the privilege.

Most trajectories to fight inf now force you to expose your tank which is very dangerous, when you could play a more artillery role.

I can really only see it as a meme close quarter ambushing tank at close quarters.
In summary. This tank doesn't fit really any role which bothers me.

short wind
silent pagoda
silent pagoda
# urban hazel From a competitive standpoint, tanks and infantry strategically hiding behind st...

Most trajectories to fight inf now force you to expose your tank which is very dangerous, when you could play a more artillery role.

And that's what's called "balancing": More fire power at the cost of vulnerability.
If you want to play as an artilleryman without taking enemy fire, you have to build your own fixed arty in the first two rows. You can't just drive a tank around the map and use it like an artillery.

SPAs were an awful idea from the beginning: a bad idea, bad implemented and historically inaccurate.

Like I said before, if there's a need for SPAs in this game, they should add the REAL SPAs (M7 Priest, Hummel, Wespe...), with MIL system and arc trajectory, but with open tops and incapable of direct fire enemy positions.

I would also like to have an MG that fires grenades, but it would be neither balanced nor historically accurate.

short wind
# silent pagoda They don't have to compete with tanks. Tanks like Tiger and Sherman 76 are build...

I am saying IF they change the requirement to spawn SPA to fuel, it will compete with tanks over the fuel resources. Tanks often have a shortage of fuel already, competing with other tank crews to get that heavy, now you also have to compete with artillery crew. It makes more sense for it to cost fuel, but having to choos btwen spa and tanks, i think most commandrs will prfer to spawn havy tanks

urban hazel
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I know that the majority of tank models not being historically accurate are making you both angry on this reddit downvote tirade on all SPA posts, but if that's your only argument, your heavily out weighed with everything else.

The SPA's role is still designed around artillery despite the model.

The squad consists of an Artillery Observer (Squad Leader), Artillery Support (Driver), and Artillery Engineer (Gunner).

As stated by the devs. "SPAs were designed to focus on a hybrid playstyle between longer range indirect fire and close-range high explosives. With these new changes, while all SPA units will still be capable of both the above-mentioned playstyles, some will perform better at one or the other."

My whole argument is that with the new update before you tried to downvote my post is that you can't do either. The models do need to change I get it, but Jesus..... it needs to still fill some sort of role because to fit because its currently redundant.

I'm guessing why the models are they way they are because open backs would be too hard to balance which I think they have mentioned, Or they simply didnt have enough time to build new ones. I know some of these SPA's are existing models.

tender cliff
waxen shard
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How about someway to switch
Like the driver switches gear, the gunner could press a button to toggle between "Artillery mode" and "Assaut tank mode"

The UI, reticle, and shell trajectory would change accordingly

silent pagoda
# urban hazel I know that the majority of tank models not being historically accurate are maki...

The SPA's role is still designed around artillery despite the model. The squad consists of an Artillery Observer (Squad Leader), Artillery Support (Driver), and Artillery Engineer (Gunner).

Yep. And that should change. I wrote it.

As stated by the devs. "SPAs were designed to focus on a hybrid playstyle between longer range indirect fire and close-range high explosives. With these new changes, while all SPA units will still be capable of both the above-mentioned playstyles, some will perform better at one or the other."

And they are wrong. Assault guns were used to help infantry assaulting enemy fortifications like bunkers, trenches, buildings... Only the Bishop was capable to indirect fire enemy positions due to its range.

T17 f-dup pretty big with these SPAs and now they're trying to fix it.

The models do need to change I get it, but Jesus..... it needs to still fill some sort of role because to fit because its currently redundant. I'm guessing why the models are they way they are because open backs would be too hard to balance which I think they have mentioned, Or they simply didnt have enough time to build new ones. I know some of these SPA's are existing models.

It's not about the models themselves or historical accuracy. It's about balancing.
You can't have both the arc trajectory of an artillery and the armor protection of a tank.
You have to expose yourself one way or another:

Do you want armor protection? Good! You have to expose your tank on the frontline firing direct hits.

If what you want is spamming shells from the backline with your gun, you have to accept the vulnerability of that role with open tops SPAs or building an arty cannon in the open.

glacial turtle
# urban hazel I know that the majority of tank models not being historically accurate are maki...

It was designed around something that wasn't correct for it, they only changed it to be what it is now after a successful campaign to over turn and make these vehicles unique and become Assault guns.

They're only designed around Arty because that is how they initially planned it, they have now moved away from that design.

My whole argument is that with the new update before you tried to downvote my post is that you can't do either. The models do need to change I get it, but Jesus..... it needs to still fill some sort of role because to fit because its currently redundant.

I don't think you've tried the Assault guns as assault guns, they can and do very much that, I've been playing them exclusively since they were reworked and frankly they do the job and then some. They're able to pressure defenders, destroying OP's able to hit them where a tank couldn't due to objects and cover. Learning each vehicles shell drop and mastering that Arch for each one allows you to do so much, enemy tanks and AT infantry really can punish them, but if you approach badly or if the Crew of the Assault guns are really good they can gain an advantage, in the thick of it with infantry around them, they really shine.
A Churchill AVRE is something you absolutely do not want near your points, it creates a pressure point for the enemy having to commit to killing it because 36M radius HE that will kill literally everything is not something to ignore. Their role is to put fear into the infantry and break a point that's hard to crack. Tanks need to play smart around them or they die, especially in the case of the AVRE that can 1 shot heavies.

The only one you should be trying to use as arty is the Bishop, the others all operate perfectly fine minus the KV2 not classed as a heavy but Brummbar, 105 and the AVRE are operating as how you'd expect, working with infantry and pushing points.

urban hazel
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My argument will still stay the same, I thought it started to fit its role perfectly from a comp perspective before the update 19.1.

However, Until the SPA calculators get updated I will look to make my own for a proper judgement on where the SPA fits with more testing, I'm not optimisitic but I'm still going to try to make it work.

It might have to be a more map specific pick, etc. I will find out over time.
Rotating roles in pubs servers will also help gather data.

Leave it with me.

edgy marsh
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When you were complaining about not being able to hit stuff at range, was it just because the calculators haven’t been updated?

I’ve played a few games with it at range now and I haven’t really noticed any issues in that area.

urban hazel
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Not at all, I was slowly testing it on training servers with the guided mils. I can hit wherever I want to. The trajectory is significantly different for both far and close.

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Definitely need a zoom or something for direct fire aswell.

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They have had to make the mills and axis reversed to fit to scale for the game, Which is unrealistic in reality.

quaint flame
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If SPAs prove to be useless and unused, they could always buff them with new features, like resetting or delaying enemy spawn timers within the explosion radius, even through buildings like how a satchel works. Destruction of spawns may be too much, but they could have it damage and suppress infantry through buildings. Just 1 point of damage would work to suppress people and waste time bandaging. It'd at least help dealing with clown car strongpoints.

willow siren
# glacial turtle It was designed around something that wasn't correct for it, they only changed i...

I get your argument but the reason they were initially introduced was because it gave us arty players options other than being farmed at HQ.

With the changes, sure, it can be used as indirect fire but it’s not nearly as consistent nor can you hit the backside of houses, tree lines, etc consistently. It was pinpoint accurate if you used interpolation because it was quite literally a mortar on wheels.

Now, it’s no longer a true artillery option, sending us strictly back to HQ. Can you build a gun elsewhere? Sure but it’s a HUGE disadvantage trying to defend it because you don’t have that 10 second HQ respawn and if they wipe your OP you are SOL thus creating the same loop as before.

Was it historically accurate for in game use? No, but don’t use that as your argument when we can point out 50 things that have been moved away from “historically accurate” in the game.

They either need to move it back or move it to armor and implement the Hummel and other vehicles.

However, the issue is the player count isn’t large enough for more vehicles in game.

50 players, 4 tanks, and then another mobile piece? That could be up to 20+ players in vehicles leaving less than 30 to play infantry greatly decreasing the intensity there, and I don’t think the engine or game could handle 110 or 120 players per match so it’ll take away from the core fighting quite a bit.

glacial turtle
# willow siren I get your argument but the reason they were initially introduced was because it...

I get your argument but the reason they were initially introduced was because it gave us arty players options other than being farmed at HQ.

Here's the thing, it didn't resolve anything, their first iterations they had were basically the same thing, instead you're spawning a vehicle at high munitions cost in a highly saturated section of the commanders abilities where he'd spawn it and you'd go die to an Armoured car or a light tank, really quickly. because they tend to still sit far back and shooting and for most part your spotter and driver are sitting there bored, as was the case with just a static arty or the famous Arty vs Recon troupe.

With the changes, sure, it can be used as indirect fire but it’s not nearly as consistent nor can you hit the backside of houses, tree lines, etc consistently. It was pinpoint accurate if you used interpolation because it was quite literally a mortar on wheels.

Now, it’s no longer a true artillery option, sending us strictly back to HQ. Can you build a gun elsewhere? Sure but it’s a HUGE disadvantage trying to defend it because you don’t have that 10 second HQ respawn and if they wipe your OP you are SOL thus creating the same loop as before.

Was it historically accurate for in game use? No, but don’t use that as your argument when we can point out 50 things that have been moved away from “historically accurate” in the game.

They either need to move it back or move it to armor and implement the Hummel and other vehicles.

These vehicles still feel like mortars on wheels, but they also feel much more depth to them, again I've played them exclusively and I've lead assaults onto points, I'm providing smoke for Infantry in the case of Brummbar because Germans had no smoke besides the Static Arty. This vehicle is so much fun working with infantry and a lot more player engaging then sitting back 6 lines shooting. We're co-ordinating with fellow tanks, infantry, my spotter is busy observing, driver is also watching out for threats calling them for his gunner. Contrast that to, sitting there going reload, fire, reload fire for one guy.

IF a vehicle is in game it should do what you expect, if they made the Luchs be a Tank destroyer that would be odd right? Maybe the turn the Stuart has capabilities of being recon. You can't just bring a vehicle in and change it's identity because you want to bring some form of arty in and hold back Mortars because that's a key feature for selling your next game Vietnam.

I agree All Assault guns should be Armour, currently we have an effective armoured unit that can make garrisons, OPs, Flare, Build Repair stations on the fly. This is too much and makes no sense.

However, the issue is the player count isn’t large enough for more vehicles in game.

50 players, 4 tanks, and then another mobile piece? That could be up to 20+ players in vehicles leaving less than 30 to play infantry greatly decreasing the intensity there, and I don’t think the engine or game could handle 110 or 120 players per match so it’ll take away from the core fighting quite a bit.

We have 6 armour squads available to us, I've seen a few times that maxed out, it had no impact on the infantry play at all is it always viable, no, They're also adding more vehicles this year may not be armour could be utility vehicles such as Command Half track.
Conclusion what they've changed doesn't change anything as Arty was not engaging nor enjoyable apart from the guy getting 100kill -0 deaths.
Moving it around is a start but at that point just remodel them to mortars and lower range.
Solution for a more engaging Arty, Allow the team to make mortar pits, have them upgradeable to increase protection around them, allow that unit to spawn on their mortars like it's their OP, allowing them to defend that position when attacked, Mortar Half tracks are also an option, not enclosed but they have protection from small arms fire from sides, unlike a static arty.

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With all that said, the vehicles right now aren't being played and it's an issue that stems from their first iterations unfortunately, I've seen people either use it as arty then get bored or no one touches them. I've pushed for an event in my community to showcase them as Assault vehicles, not many took up that challenge, I tried and unfortunately outside of a few people no one is giving them a chance. What also hurts them is the sheer cost of them, it's a lot of resources and if you just spawn and then die in without achieving anything it's just a giant waste.

For the price you need to achieve more than a bombing run, in most cases we do. we go on a 40+ killing spree, we kill unaware Armour, it's a powerful vehicle and tool that is being overlooked because people either think it's still Arty and they don't like that or it's because they think it's arty and try and use it as such, which it isn't supposed to be.
Only the Bishop is the Arty gun.

This confliction of consistency makes it confusing for the player base and based on misconception now, no one wants to touch them.
That's a damn shame because the sheer presence of this vehicle on the front line pushing is absolutely terrifying, when we turn up we're the target of all their AT.
Forget the heavy tanks it's the Assault gun that is the threat, absolutely decimating a defence point because it's lobbing shells over walls and with such a huge AOE it's just a lot of pressure that eventually will break them.

I really can't stress how much fun I've been having in these vehicles. I've not touched anything else and you're all missing out on trying these. Don't treat them like a normal tank, don't treat them like Arty. New playstyle and this change has added a whole lot to the gameplay. Arty needs something I agree but these vehicles are unique and add to the game just give them a chance and play them.

Solution to making it less confusing, rename them to Assault guns( Minus Bishop it can stay in the SPA) switch them to Armour section costing fuel, this will align players to knowing they're Armour and I bet you people will use them more.

urban hazel
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Closing post for now due to the unproductive AI Reponses.

To summarize with testing SPA I finding it difficult for it to fit a definite role at this stage.
**Objective data gathered:
**
For in-direct fire: (Artillery Role)
Arc Trajectory has changed
Mills and gun axis have been reversed. Opposite to real physics.
Reference guide is not accurate or correctly to scale.
Max ranges are not correct as per stat sheet.
In-direct fire is severely inaccurate on maps with varying terrain like before.

For direct fire:
Needs to be able to be fired in any gear to compete at least competitively.
No zoom.

Will continue Testing.
And will make a repost once all SPA tanks are done.

Please ignore any messages below--------------------

glacial turtle
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Closing post for now due to the unproductive AI Reponses.

Basically you don't like the responses that go against your opinion, so automatically they're AI, bit crass. You've not given these vehicles a chance nor tried them.

silent pagoda