Asymmetrical balancing please!!!

[olive patrol]

As of right now many of the classes, vehicles, and abilities are just reskins of the other factions. I believe that each faction should have AT LEAST 1 (but preferably asymmetrical balancing would be maximized) unique feature that would be useful for their faction.

For example, Russians are currently underpowered because of how strong the German faction is (high amount of automatic weapons along with much better armor), the Russians could have slightly reduced respawn timer for squads that have 6/6 maybe 10s reduced to 8s or even potentially the reduced spawn timer being a commander ability. They could also potentially have larger squads than the other factions, These specific change would be historically accurate in the sense that the Russian army had served almost double the men that the German army did.

Another potential change could be increasing the rate of fire for the British bolt action rifles since they were known for the mad minute technique.

[pastel girder]

You've said that factions are just reskins of each other and proceeded to elaborate how one faction is weaker than the other...

Btw symmetrical balance is good for an arcade game, which HLL definitely is

[olive patrol]

I didn’t mean every single thing is a reskin of eachother, obviously the fire rates, specific weapons, uniforms etc. etc. etc. of each faction is different but the core setup and blueprint of each faction is the same. Even down to the classification of tanks. Strategic tactical ww2 shooter is what I would call it personally, but we shouldn’t get hung up on the genre and even if we do let’s not cherry pick features to justify calling it what we want since it is clearly in the middle of a lot of genres, and what’s good for the average game in any of the specific genres is not always going to be good for HLL.

If we want to call HLL an arcade game we should also start putting red dots and scopes on every other weapon, how about adding a team death match, free for all, and kill confirmed modes. how about adding small maps for these modes since arcade shooters usually have small maps. We should also allow every player to pick whatever gun they want. All of these are indicative of an arcade shooter.

Do you see how trying to define HLL as an “XXXX genre game” and using that as an argument to push what you want is problematic?? If you don’t like the suggestion maybe you can elaborate why you believe that it isn’t good for the game and what you would do to fix it if anything, instead of whatever your comment was

[pastel girder]

Attachments and loadouts aren't an indicator of arcade lol (COD2 isn't arcade? Or if battlefield has class specific loadouts and weapons it's not arcade?). Nor does smaller maps.

What is an indicator of arcade is every aspect of combat mechanics are as simple as possible:
gunplay in HLL (guns recoil is a straight line up, lazer beam guns)
tank play (big gun - boom everything from the front, smaller gun - no boom everything)
artillery (I ping - I use calculator to do the simplest math - I align - I spam shells).

And no, player-controlled spawnpoints (HLL implementation in particular) does not suddenly make the game less arcade, as any other core mechanics (mentioned above) are more significant for the win (especially on consoles).

My point stays the same: asymmetrical balance isn't good for an arcade game, and unless HLL suddenly change into something it's not.

P.S. smaller maps were announced and they'll come sooner or later, unless HLL dies

[lunar kayak]

Definitely yes to the general idea. Asymmetrical balance is entertaining, easiest example I can think of is SC: Brood War, with three completely different races yet almost perfectly balanced at the ultimate level. It's doable in any game. And it is in HLL already. The question is just the degree to which it's present, and I'll vote for more of it any day. Ideally to make it reflect the reality of the portrayed battle.

[olive patrol]

Nobody wanted smaller maps though lol, and I completely disagree. Aside from the fact you’re cherry picking specific aspects of the game and saying it’s representative of the game when it’s not.

[pastel girder]

Smaller maps would be a great aim training, which is especially needed for console players where literally half of the players can't shoot straight and can't get more than 30-40 kills per game.

What exactly am I cherry picking? Combat mechanics and combat effectiveness are the major decisive factor of winning in HLL, deny it or not - it's true, especially on consoles.

[wraith wing]

the game had more asymetrical equipments and should return to it, as it was also implied that some current loadouts (like all the MP40s in the german loadouts) are basically there to bridge the time until new and more accurate equipment is developed (like MP34s, G41 or other weapons for the other factions). Think the only weapon where that became true until this point is the FG.

How far asymetry should impact game mechanics, like spawntimes or squadszizes (that doesnt really mirror the historical manpower situation - unless you actuall boost one teams playercount, what may not be very well recived, I guess) may be up to debate and testing, though for tanks as example it could work that german tanks are better, but more expensive, while the allied factions can spam them more.

[olive patrol]

I personally disagree with the manpower statement, as it would allow the Soviet’s to have more players alive on the map at any given point in time, without adding players to only their team (simply wouldn’t work anyway because what happens to the extra players when the next map comes into rotation) but personally I think asymmetric factions make for such an interesting dynamic and would create a lot of depth

[sturdy portal]

i would love to have asymmetric balancing that was also part of the kickstarter programme i paid for.
unfortunately they made an arcade shooting gallery out of it
and that's not going to change.
you would have to start from scratch and it would take years and a lot of money. the topic was dead when the game was hastily taken out of early acces.

[winter vessel]

I think the MG42 could use some tweaking. It's a laser even with sustained fire. I'm fine with the accuracy in short bursts. But you shouldn't be able to just spray away with it with like zero recoil and perfect accuracy. Perhaps making it only accurate for a second or two and then have it become more squirly would help balance the brits vs. germans on maps like El Alamein. On our server in the last few months, the Germans are 28-3 against the Brits on El Alemein....

[olive patrol]

Thanks for the reply! I really like this idea in general, mg42 is definitely a little too powerful in the wrong ways. Would be an interesting solution to some balancing issues

[olive patrol]

Wrong thread??

[wanton torrent]

🤣🤦🏽‍♂️sorry, I’m dizzy today and I’m confusing everything, I was writing a comment and accidentally opened your thread, it’s such a laugh, I can delete the comment

[mystic beacon]

I love asymmetry, you can do Asymmetry with arcade. Rising Storm 2 does it rather well.
It would certainly be nice for each faction to truly get their own identity and play a differently, either a by small or large bit. Asymmetry is difficult to get balanced though of course.

[weary cairn]

I like the mad minute idea, it wouldn't do much but it would still do something for the British

[normal vale]

[pearl bluff]

THIS

[weary cairn]

Plus overheating would be great

[olive patrol]

Agreed

[winter vessel]

Just going to leave this here.
https://fb.watch/nBMI1wDaVr/?mibextid=Nif5oz

[olive patrol]

[turbid gulch]

😢 Dont make me cry again.

[winter vessel]

Making those changes to the MG42 would be a step toward asymmetrical balance.

[halcyon isle]

[olive patrol]

Definitely would help asymmetrical balance

[winter vessel]

Do you really want to run around El Alamein with a Thompson though?

[sudden forge]

Soul I’m real sorry, but we’ll be getting the Thompson on El Alamein soon, during November with the British Rework Part 1 we’ll be getting the “British Thompson,” otherwise known as the M1928a1 Thompson with drum mag, for the North African maps. (only El Alamein for now)

[sudden forge]

I’ve got the answer; barrel changing.

[hearty mural]

How about just giving the Soviets flamethrowers, (like they should have already), make molotovs do damage to vehicles, and giving them two buildable machine guns out of the Maxim 1910, Goryunov SG-43, or the DSHK. Maybe even buff the DP-27 so that you can ADS with it. The British are also weak and they should have the bolt cycle speed of the Enfields increased and a buildable Vickers water cooled muchaine gun and/or VGO land service added to the game. If the Lewis Gun stays in the game (but it shouldn't since the British barely used them in WW2) then the devs have to make the iron sights less obstructive, they are god awful. A big reason that the Soviet and British factions are lacking is because their machine guns suck. If you give them more and better machine guns to chose from then the factions will be better.

[winter vessel]

What if you gave the MG42 a 50 round belt instead of a drum on El Alamein? The drum has a 250 round capacity (IRL anyway, not sure if that's the case in HLL). So that would force German MGs to reload a lot more frequently, giving the Brits pockets of time to move positions. Or if 50 rds is too little, you could do 100 rds since the belts IRL could be chained together

[hearty mural]

I think if they just increased the recoil of the MG-42 then it would be in a good place.

[versed loom]

Perhaps make an overheat mechanic at least, maybe it overheats at like 180/190 consecutively fired rounds just to make it a bit more easy on everyone? And you can just stop fire for a few seconds and it will not overheat.

[mystic beacon]

pretty sure irl the drum could only hold 50, not 250 like in game.
They could always do variations
50 round drum with more backup ammo but reloading more,
or 100 round belt with less backup some way.
But heat and barrel changing should definitely be a thing considering you can spew 250 rounds non-stop. Take from RO2s book, you get one spare barrel. You can change them and they will cool down when not being used or not firing, but if you overheat it too much it breaks and you will have to fish out a replacement.

[pastel girder]

There's nothing good in asymmetrical balance most of you want in terms of an arcade game.

You got a bit of asymmetrical balance with Brits, doesn't seem like you enjoy it

[olive patrol]

That’s not asymmetrical balance, if it was asymmetrical balance the British would actually have been good at something(EVERYTHING they had was either just as good as the German alternative or significantly worse, along with being broken asf in more than a couple areas). Also I fundamentally disagree with you that HLL “is an arcade game” but I am not going to have that conversation again

[winter vessel]

The key word is balance. Asymmetrical just means the factions aren't dead even in every weapon category. So MG42 > M1919 but M1 Garand > Kar98K

Each faction has strengths and weaknesses in different areas, but overall they're fairly evenly matched. In the case of the Brits, I'm honestly not sure I can name a single area in which they're superior to the Germans. Maybe the sniper rifle? That's about it. And that's a problem.

[pastel girder]

@olive patrol @winter vessel Lancaster and Lee Enfield are better than MP40 and Kar98. As been mentioned in the mess hall, Brits can't really have semi-auto rifles. Mad minute won't be the same (and shouldn't) as semi auto as it must have bolt cycling "sway" which should obscure visibility at least for a little bit of time.

Otherwise the situations are pretty much the same as with Soviets (obviously with the exception of SVT), you got crappy MG for both, you got basically no battle rifle (Bren gonna be crap in any outcome because a gun that covers half of your screen at all times ain't good for arcade FPS). One bonus that Soviets really have over Brits is that PPSh with 71 round mag.

I'm all hands for adding Garand for Brits but you're the ones who gonna whine that it isn't historically accurate.

And @olive patrol, you disagree on arcade part only because you play on console and the devs took your aim assist from you, so now you think the game is a lot more that it actually is. There's literally no argument that can prove HLL isn't arcade, that's why you don't even want to hav thics conversation. All the mechanics are the most basic linear stuff. Check out Escape from Tarkov, that's an FPS no one won't call arcade, even the Arena add-on

[sudden forge]

Sorry this was bothering me; Lancaster is a plane, Lanchester is the gun.

[olive patrol]

I think you should refrain from mentioning me as a player, you don’t know who i am and you have never once seen me play or played with me. I also don’t use aim assist on any fps game I play so that wouldn’t explain why I don’t believe it’s an arcade game. Also telling me to check out tarkov is hilarious, as if I wouldn’t know what it was.

I also disagree Soviets are much better than the British. The standard issue rifle for the British is generally about the same as the k98 and any differences would be preference and I completely disagree the Lanchester is the worst smg in the game currently (and especially at release) in my opinion. The best analog for the semi auto g43 currently is the 10 rd lee enfield and there isn’t a world where I would rather have a 10 rnd bolt action that is

1. just as good as a standard issue lee en field but has an extra clip capacity and 2. Is not historically accurate
   over a 10 round semi auto. Also the Soviet SVT is a huge deal in a conversation like this, I believe having a semi auto weapon makes any faction significantly better but I also have literally never asked for the Brit’s to have the Garand, that would be a lazy BS solution to the problem and yes it would be inaccurate.

Say what you want about it being an arcade game but the games core values are large scale battles and historical accuracy. It’s quite obvious conventional video game balancing techniques don’t fit games that aim for historical accuracy and I don’t believe the devs should be trying to conventionally balance any of the factions

Also there isn’t a way to “prove HLL isn’t arcade” because there is no way to prove it is in ANY genre. HLL has dipped their toes into too much s hit and it’s been stinky for far too long, the game would benefit from narrowing their focus and I believe the best direction is not to try so hard to appease every cod gamer in the world.
I mean hell, here soon there will be a driving sim or some bs mode like that(s/)