#Minimum loadout upon death

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

spare pagoda
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When dying, you should not respawn with maximum ammo or ordinance/full loadout. Players should come back with minimum ammo, no grenades, no AT ammo. It should not be game meta to k!ll yourself to get more ammo or AT rounds. Minimum loadout would be something like - 3 smg/automatic rifleman mags, 4 rifle clips, 1 mg belt. No smoke, no grenades, no AT rounds. The idea is to create more moments where squads regroup. Bringing everyone together to gather ammo and grenades/smoke/AT ammo for the next assault/defense. Now that the ammo boxes and ordinance is imperative we would need to stick with our squad just to have ammunition to fire, smoke/grenades to throw.

Now when you establish a fighting position it is important to get some munition boxes down. And because you come back with limited ammo and ordinance you will have to get and stay on the same page as the rest of the squad. I just want to see a game where people need each other. This will also make the rifleman a much more valuable needed/common role.

As always this is a suggestion. A concept, feel free to alter or adjust any part of it. Tell us what you like, don't like. And most importantly why. How do you feel it would impact gameplay for better or worse.

rain pilot
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I like the idea of having an "ammo depot" built by engineers or dropped by commander near garrisons. Essentially, you would spawn with half ammo and no explosives' upon respawning on an outpost or spawning at a garrison without an ammo depot at the garrison. This would fix issues of spam but wouldn't necessarily slow the game down. It would make having a support even more useful as well considering if you need ammo or explosives in a squad spawning on an outpost, the support would provide.

spare pagoda
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@rain pilot I read you comment BISH. But I personally want to slow the game down lol. I want these little breaks in the action where you are resupplying with your squad. And getting ready for the next encounter. Currently there is no need to ever stop fighting. And I when I think of the greatest war movies or shows ( band of brothers ) Before they make an assault you see them getting ammo and ordinance together. Or in Saving Private Ryan when they prepare to make a defensive at the end you see them once again staging ammo/grenades etc. I want those movie moments in HLL. I want that to create moments of comradery and reorganization of the squad. I can just imagine mowing down an enemy squad who was resupplying near there op 😄

true sage
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i think it is slowed down when you have to at least go back to a garrison or ask a supplier for more ammo. these stations are already in the game, the ammunition nodes. just like manpower gives you supply cd reduction, ammunition nodes could give you ammo maybe for a cost or sth

spare pagoda
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@true sage The only thing I don't like about ammunition node idea is that those are static and soldiers have to move around and you might not be in the same position for very long if you are on the offensive. But I guess you could add it in addition to my system as well and if you end up near a muntion node all the better? hah 🙂

rain pilot
fallen ravine
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emoji_HLLCommendation
Could be interesting and could make the ammo boxes more useful.
Sadly it will count as "punishing" players so it is unlikely to become reality.

slow pewter
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Blueberries don't need more than 3 mags or grenades. They naturally die before they empty their first mag. Just saying they will not be coming to your squad regroup to get an extra mag.

I can imagine something like this for the AT rockets which are already overused and as you mention the suicide to replenish them loop is hardly justifiable.

spare pagoda
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No game should have a suicide meta. You die you lose your kit. It would now be necessary to find ammo boxes and ordinance boxes upon respawn. This means your rifleman and support need to stage these near your current fighting position. No more AT guys killen themselves to magically get more ammo. Just silly

pale quiver
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I'm kind of all for this.
And no friendly markers, or animated maps.

But I do think that this kind of change would be a fundamental course change for HLL, and drive the need for a ton of other changes so would have to be implemented with a ton of testing, and then still need several iterations to get right which would be weird for a game that is supposedly mature.

I also think a lot of these kinds of changes that would make the game more punishing would alienate a large portion of the player base, so hard to countenance from a dev perspective.

I also, also think the community's response to the runspeed change is indicative of how receptive it would be to any sweeping game play changes. Considering it couldn't handle running 50m 2 seconds faster.

I often wonder if these kinds of things could be server settings so that we could appease more people...

spare pagoda
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@pale quiver I do know this would really be a big change on gameplay. And is probably more appealing to the hardcore crowd. But man.. especially as a Squad leader you need little breaks from time to time. Everyone could probably use a little break from time to time in a 1 hour long match. Instead of spawn/run/die. You might spawn/Resupply/Communicate/Evaluate/Die 🙂 And also there would probably be moments where the enemy is pressing your op after they wipe your squad and now you are kind of on the back foot. Because with the right amount of pressure you would be forced on the defensive. Unable to throw smoke or grenades of your own. And the enemy would have an offensive advantage. Seeing they have smoke and grenades etc.

pastel pumice
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I would propose that you don't resupply when you spawn on an OP, but you do resupply when you spawn on a garrison.

spare pagoda
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@pastel pumice I would accept that and like that just as much. Yeah that could work.

slow pewter
# pastel pumice I would propose that you don't resupply when you spawn on an OP, but you do resu...

This would make offensive efforts much more difficult/borderline impossible on some points. So the question is how you'd balance that out. At least personally I feel the balance now is at an alright spot.

@true sage Because you spawn more on garrisons on defense than on offense. So most defendants would have free full restock whereas offense would scramble upon spawning on already possibly fragile outposts. This would also prolong the attack and make outpost locations more obvious.
I'm not saying it couldn't work, just saying it would tilt the existing balance in favor of defense.

true sage
whole smelt
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Could make ammo drops actually useful, but side note where would the rifleman or support resupply at ? Or are the ammo boxes going to stay the same and it’s strictly only ammo that has to be replenished.

true sage
spare pagoda
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@slow pewter [ you say] I feel the balance is at an alright spot. [I say] BALANCE? What balance? The game is broken and has a meta that makes AT guys k!ll themselves. Ehhhh ?? Where is the balance? That is exactly why we are having this conversation. And besides AT guys no one else should be k!lling themselves to resupply either. This is half the reason people don't wait for a medic. They get rewarded with a full loadout. NOW IF WE REMOVE THAT BROKEN META FROM THE GAME - We create more an importance on rifleman actually providing ammo and support providing ammo and ordinance.

slow pewter
# spare pagoda <@460998775452991488> [ you say] I feel the balance is at an alright spot. [I ...

I was referring to the balance between defense and offense, i.e. how difficult and time consuming it is it to capture an enemy sector.

To your other points, I can imagine some tweaks to the system but I'm not for any big overhauls especially not with the state the game and community is at.

I enjoy the game. I spent hundreds of hours with it and I don't regret. IIRC you also mentioned you spent hundreds of hours with this game.

If I liked most of what you're suggesting I would probably go on to play Post Scriptum. But I don't want to. Not (only) because there's barely people left playing it.

On that note I am curious as to why you wouldn't be playing that game considering it seems much closer to what you're expecting from HLL?
I'm not saying "go play that game", I'm just genuinely curious.

pale quiver
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Yeah, while I like this idea in principle I am not sure it fits into the game we are playing.

HLL was developed, despite its description, as a very arcadey, accessible shooter. These changes would be a fundamental departure from that.

While I am all for them, I don't think HLL is the place for this kind of mechanic. It would almost be deceptive to the playerbase. "Hi we changed our game from an arcade shooter to a milsim over night, sorry."

Also, the resistance to the run speed change just shows how people want an easy, low-IQ shooter.

stark turret
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The whole point of HLL is that every time you die you’re a new person, readily equipped for battle, and all level.

true sage
spare pagoda
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@stark turret [you say] The whole point of HLL is that every time you die you’re a new person, readily equipped for battle, and all level. [I say] Yeah, no, maybe, we are trying to correct/fix this broken AT meta. The meta that makes AT guys k!ll themselves to get ammo. A bit silly, so that is why we have gotten to this point. And why I am suggestion such changes.

stark turret
red nexus
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Nice idea but most of the games I’ve been playing the general player base doesn’t even build garrisons.

true sage
spare pagoda
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@stark turret Yeah well when I'm playing infantry I love my tank support 🙂 I just think it's really silly that it's literally the games meta to k!ll yourself when you need ammo. And I think people enjoy HLL being more like a movie than a game sometimes as well. So having those moments where you are not just in combat but preparing for combat/resupplying would be nice. Having players resupply and making ammo and ordinance more important will make rifleman even a desirable role to have in a squad and support will be needed not to just build garrison but to provide the AT ammo. I did like someones idea of spawning at a garrison gives you a full kit. But not spawning on the outpost. That seems like a fair medium.

spare pagoda
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We need something like this to stop the AT suicide meta. This would also add another phase to the game. Soldiers having to resupply more. Getting ammo and grenades. Now it is actually important to put down ammo near your op/fighting position. Now no one will give up if there is a medic near by (denying the medic the chance to revive ) because they want to come back with full ammo/grenades/smoke/AT. OF COURSE IF YOU REWARD A PLAYER for respawning HE WILL NEVER WAIT FOR A MEDIC. And medics will not be important because medics are directly effected by the AT suicide meta. LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE and how things effect other things. THIS is why we need something like this.

languid dirge
true sage
slow pewter
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The only class that often redeploys to get more ammo is AT. What about just nerfing their rockets to something like the supply box cooldown (the mechanic, not the timer)?
There's already way too many rockets in the game anyway. You could say people will just switch classes, and yeah in comp probably but it'll barely happen in pub games so it'd be a quick and easy fix.

Support players with their boxes would become more important as well which would be a neat side effect.

Don't mess up the game for everyone else because AT on redeploy is steroids.

spare pagoda
spare pagoda
plush dawn
misty urchin
spare pagoda
true sage
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I wouldnt exactly let poeple spawn with minimum loadout, let´s say 3 mags minimum and if you died with more you will have whatever you had left before that. Overall that shouldnt be much of a deal.

supple delta
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I'm a little hesitant about this idea for a few reasons, although I can absolutely understand wanting to get rid of the suicide meta. Me personally, if I use up my rockets, satchel, etc. I do what any sane person does and continue to fight until I'm killed

That being said, taking away equipment and ammo from someone on spawn irks me for a few reasons

The game tries to convey that when you die and come back, you're coming back as a new soldier, that means you'd have full kit. It makes no sense for you to come back with less of a combat load than you previously had

Another thing is that, say for example, you accidentally spawn in at the wrong place and redeploy. That counts as a "death", and therfore you'd be punished simply for making a mistake. This is easily rectified, but something to think about nonetheless

What I suggest and I'm sure others have too is when spawning on an OP, that's when it would make sense to have limited kit. It's a temporary spawn to quickly rush people in, and this is how the AT suicide strat works. However, I think if we were to explore this further you should be able to spawn on a garrison and have your full kit, that's just my two cents

serene dust
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There is no persistent ammo and the game is so fast paced compared to lets say squad that I don't see it fitting HLL well.

@timber blade I don't want or need ammo, you must have misunderstood. Normal ammo is largely redundant. One could alter some classes huge ammo amount slightly to make it matter a little more but don't think its necessary. Only explosive ammo matters.
Here I would rather edit the amount of AT classes or the ttk on tanks but I think its fine tbh. I would add an explosive ammo box to the US Rifleman though as it doesn't have one. What does this class bring to the table like that?

timber blade
rancid crest
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how this suggestion is going to change anything? i could just drop AT ammo on op and keep redeploying with same result as now.

blazing perch
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No

slow pewter
true sage
# supple delta I'm a little hesitant about this idea for a few reasons, although I can absolute...

Idk why you think you come back as a new soldier? this is a game, you come back as the same player. My suggestion would simply be keep ammo persistant if you have ammo left from your last death you still have that ammo. and there willbe a minimum ammo that you will always spawn with at least.

As to full ammo at garrisons, personally I would rather like ammunition nodes to be build at strategic points. And their influence area gives you back full ammo per spawn. This would also make nodes more useful and add another layer to the currently boring node meta

@rancid crest yes but it feels more consistent as all game mechanics now have a reason to exist. Obviously the ammo boxes arent always available, there needs to be a lil more planning and talking to do which overall increases the team feeling.

@slow pewter Everytime i see these kind of complaints i have to wonder do YOU do anything to fix it? I never argue about too little garrisons bc i always build them. I dont complain about nodes bc i always build them, I dont complain about noone defending bc i will be there to defend. I dont complain about my SL doing stupid stuff bc if i know better I do the SL myself.

spare pagoda
# rancid crest how this suggestion is going to change anything? i could just drop AT ammo on op...

Yeah, but you would have to go through the process of resupplying. And you would also have to have a support player do that. It's called coordinating with the squad. And this way when you hurt the enemy. They feel it when they respawn. Because they are not fully equipped. This means if you are pressing the enemy op. And more of your guys live during the engagements you will have smoke, you will have grenades. They will not and they will be on the back foot. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And remember we are not just worried about the AT guy. We are also trying to make (the rifleman) more important as well. Actually being needed to drop ammo.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ALSO - (The medic) would be more important. BECAUSE if you die/let go and respawn. You will have no AT ammo, no grenades, no smoke. BUT if you let the medic pick you up, you can keep your gear.

supple delta
# true sage Idk why you think you come back as a new soldier? this is a game, you come back...

I don't think that you come back as a new soldier, that's exactly how BM intended to make it feel

Notice now when you first join a game on the scoreboard it puts you in a category of "No platoon" instead of "No squad"

You can have a max of 6 people in your squad, and if they all die at least 10 times then you've had a platoons worth of people who've died. Now take this and add another 5 squads, you've had 600 people who've died, that's multiple platoons and a few companies worth of men

It's also obviously meant to be this way based on the SL loadouts, the default and rank 3 loadouts are meant to be commissioned officer, who would lead a platoon. The rank 6 unlock is an NCO, who would lead the 6 man sized element that we have

TL;DR, BM intended it to feel like with people dying over and over it's meant to be two battalion fighting during a game, hence my point of being a fresh soldier, and as such persistent ammo would not fit what the game attempts to portray

rancid crest
slow pewter
# true sage Idk why you think you come back as a new soldier? this is a game, you come back...

Yes, I build garrisons, I build nodes and I lead squads. And I'm not one to ever complain in game. But I will say that garrison and node building is far from a team effort. Most of the games it is a work of ~10 people, and that's including a random blueberry dropping a supply box once per game somewhere by accident.

And while that can be improved I don't think that's a huge issue. You have players like me that enjoy driving a supply truck the entire game, and players who only worry about their kill count.

There's a need for communication and coordination in the game and currently it's at an acceptable level where we're the few able are capable of putting up enough nodes and garrisons to make the game worthwhile for all.

However, add to that a logistics issue every single time a player respawns as OP suggests, and the game will be a poor mess.

true sage
# rancid crest I can/could literally drop AT ammo myself redeploy spawn as AT and keep doing it...

not sure what your point is ofc we all can do everything by ourselves but it works faster in a team

@slow pewter I see your point but I think we should differentiate each mechanic here. Building stuff which has a strategic importance is quite different from just dropping an ammo box. Overall I would use persistant ammo rather than getting minimum ammo. Moreover if someone runs out of ammo they will actively try to find ammo compared to other building mechanics which are usually initiated by the SL only.
So sure it can become a lil messy at the beginning but I think the good kind of messy that simply leads to more interaction

quiet basin
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No.

spare pagoda
radiant lodge
true sage
spare pagoda
# true sage Hence i also included a minimum ammo that you will always have if you die with 1...

Well the whole point here to for the enemy to feel the effects of death. And when they respawn they are diminished from the previous engagement. Making it more important to win that first engagement against the enemy. AND REMEMBER we are also trying to make ( the rifleman ) more necessary . And we are also trying to make ( the medic ) more essential. If you kill the enemy AT soldier, he shouldn't be able to pop back up in 20 ish seconds from an op and and start firing at the tank again. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------AND ALSO - When making a push you shouldn't be able to spam smoke grenades, die and spam more. IF you are going to take up a fighting position it should be required to stage your ammo and ordinance. This is what soldiers do when they establish a fighting position. I am influenced by the scene in Band Of Brothers where they are preparing to assault brecourt. They get ammo and ordinance together before they make an attack. OR in Saving Private Ryan they prepare for a defense at the end of the movie and you see them staging ammo and gathering ordinance etc etc.

pale quiver
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Not feeling the effects of death is pretty integral to HLL. Why change it?

true sage