Optimization issue is right on our face

[hard nacelle]

Sadly optimization was done but it was quickly undone with new assets, the game needs lower and thats not happening! HALF A MILLION TRIANGLES FOR 1 MODEL! This should not be the case for this game, specially because large rocks take 60k triangles, when you count all the assets inside a map, you'll realize how much VRAM, CPU and GPU power you need

Optimization is something flexible, with many ways to deal with, but its extremely important and competent game developers will have no struggle to realize that THIS should not be acceptable for any model

[fierce path]

Wow this is really interesting, thank you for posting. Hope this optimization takes a front seat ASAP, it’s long overdue and a key Quality of Life issue.

[covert rose]

[wise gazelle]

No wonder El Alamein performs like garbage, so many frame drops; especially anywhere near that area of map on offensive (with all 100 players shooting adding to server cpu load and physics tied to frames via game thread)

[sullen mica]

Howed you extract their assets?

Can’t respond but thanks

[hard nacelle]

just use UEViewer, im guessing since its using Unreal Engine they can't be completely strict about how their assets are locked. So getting access to them is as easy as it can get, though ofc you can't get the actual Unreal Engine project out of it

yeah anytime mate LOL

[lapis roost]

Maybe an easy initial step to optimization is remove the smaller stones and rocks( but keep the boulders ) to reduce object count. I don't think the pebbles are going to deflect a rifle round.😁

[cosmic tiger]

So the issue is that the proper LoD needs to be done as well for the smaller rocks

That is one of the most egregiously unoptimized assets I've seen

If you're hoping to keep detail level they can just simply make the high definition model texture it and then bake the normals and reduce poly count by 40%

[latent canopy]

Half a million??? Lollll they trying to get us to render cinematic cutscenes in real time now???
This isn't a suggestion. This is a straight up bug report.
Good looking out, brother.

[hard nacelle]

@lapis roost those usually have less a low poly count and so less LOD levels ( less VRAM usage and stutters because of both reasons ), so ain't really that bad, it adds life to the environment even when looking dogshit when you actually focus on it

@cosmic tiger it depends on the case honestly, for small rocks that have at max 100-ish triangles, you should be good to have 1 or 2 lod levels, without having to bake anything, the problem is when you have a load of 500k triangles assets, and you have to compensate that performance drop with 5 lod levels, not only that poly count adds to the VRAM, but so does the LOD's

@latent canopy got bad news for everyone, that's not the only asset that reaches such levels, I would guess that if the game was properly optimized we would have at least a 50% drop on VRAM usage, god knows how less GPU usage and the game disk size would definitively take a good hit on it too

Mud road = Stalingrad background or smth / Old tiger model / Carentan bridge / a single piece of train tracks / Staligrad building / My favorite example, pile of rubbish

I think you get the point, take a look yourself

It is straight up photogrammetry level of detail, literally a technique pre-rendered cutscenes use for realism, it is quite a dumb idea to take such technique and use it on a multiplayer 100vs100 player game with a huge landscape to play

[latent canopy]

Dude please, are there any more you can find? What is the polycount for the Tiger?

My 3D buddies are crying laughing at this.

Are you SURE you are not looking at some unused models that are part of an old/abandoned/upcoming cutscene??

[hard nacelle]

pretty sure only the tiger model is old, I'll check the new one, the missing textures ones were my fault, I accidentally disabled the materials but if I re-open them it will work fine, im not sure about that Stalingrad background but, even if it is unused why would such simple geometry be that dense, seriously, if you want more screenshots you can just DM me and I can search for whatever model, I'll only be able to post more content here in 2 hours so

Oh yeah, one more thing, geometry is not the only issue, there's a ton of models that contain dozens of material parameters, which is the worst nightmare for a GPU

Avro Lanster material parameters : https://imgur.com/9FwIXLa

[lucid spindle]

[violet hatch]

That is absolutely mind blowingly crazy. This needs to get looked into. This totally should go into the "report-an-issue" section.

[warm arch]

there are so many places on all the maps where new objects were simply placed over old objects again and again.

fences in hedges and mountainsides, hedges, fences and stones in buildings etc. all this makes the situation even worse.

[hard nacelle]

this is pretty common practice in level design, just smashing a bunch of model on top of each other to "create a new one", but when the first model you insert is already half a million triangles then you should probably rethink your way of making games

[latent canopy]

Thats okay, I'm just interested if there are any of the super LOD models that are being used in any of the maps,.

[hard nacelle]

a couple of other models then, ApartmentBlocks 4 being the heaviest static mesh present in the game, having 1 million triangles and a disk size of 104mb

[proud remnant]

1M triangles?????? How does UE4 even support that?

[final shadow]

What would be a normal number of triangles for let's say bridge?

[earnest terrace]

It's a giant bridge so normally it would be split into chunks and have LOD models being used towards the opposite end to where you are

[wise gazelle]

Depends on the render distance? Even UE4 has HLOD to replace static meshes with lower quality ones at longer distances

E.g. the “blob” buildings which also seal the openings (doors & windows)

[gilded jacinth]

My god what were BM doing?

[regal lava]

Did you ripped the files out of the .Pak or did you unpack the .Pak? Both are illegal 😅

[proud remnant]

.Pak-40 anti tank gun!!!!

[wise gazelle]

Depends on the jurisdiction, some laws regarding reverse engineering have a fair use clause, and some are very uncertain on the legality.

[wanton mesa]

I had a suspicion the models may have been to detailed for their own good, but i aint a modeller so i could never confirm, but this just proves it

[weak meadow]

Wow 😮 No wonder this game runs like crap 🤨

[violet hatch]

Remember how Danny said smart materials would not only make the textures look better (yes, true) but also improve performance (lol, lmao even looking at this)

[hard nacelle]

@final shadow for the way that bridge looks, im guessing 5k tris should work, instead of 50k, just because it looks mostly like primitive shapes

@wise gazelle the issue with the way HLL does is, not only the HLOD used is automatically generated, meaning that vision obstruciton like we have now is not under devs control, which also means the quality may look much worse without having a significant performance increase, but not only that, having a super detailed model will require 5+ lod's to compensate, imagine that for every single detailed model we have ( a lot ), there you have a huge disk space wasted, plus a lot of VRAM that users will need to handle

@regal lava ripped out of the pak, from what I know its not illegal, just somewhat ethically wrong, and to be fair not like I care about ethic at this point. I have showed these kinds of pics and openly admited checking inside the game files quite a while ago and im still not banned, so im guessing the devs don't really care about a 17yo looking through their stuff without having to hack their password or some bs like that, its literally just using "UE tools" ( be aware that UNPACKING by itself is not illegal, but modifying assets then REPACKING is, obviously, cheating )

@violet hatch I doubt the way they're doing materials is any better, in fact, look at that Avro Lanster material parameters I posted, that is a LOT of texture samples that the GPU needs to work with, theres a "meme" that I like a lot which points out that is a bad thing for it, and guess what, basically all vehicle and weapon models ( that im aware of ) use that "smart materials" method!

[proud remnant]

6200 triangles for this

[earnest terrace]

Neither are illegal. What would be illegal would be redistributing the assets in any way

[hard nacelle]

that's a pretty thin ice because it would depend on the model itself, some might be fine to redistribute but, at the end of the day, I think its better off to just not do it, safest option is to just buy the game and extract stuff yourself ig

[proud remnant]

They removed my post about this issue

"not an issue" 🤓 ☝️

[cosmic tiger]

i noticed ;P

https://discord.com/channels/316459644476456962/1116922604398313572

[hard nacelle]

it sure is an issue, but at least this post has been getting quite some activity, the best we can do is probably just keep pushing forward and calling out for them whenever we can, if reporting it in #1097866142028152944 is invalid, then so be it

[earnest terrace]

@proud remnant hands texture mapped onto a material viewer cube 😅

[proud remnant]

💀 💀 💀

[hard nacelle]

quick and dirty work, really lazy work yet it still gets a great reduction while keeping an okay quality ( the quality such multiplayer game should be aiming for anyway ), going from 293k tris to 20k tris, if I can do it imagine a team full of developers? Not only that but doing this manual work gives me access to an easier way to create LOD's, you can see it ranges from 20k tris to 2k tris, but still keeps the overall shape and volume, which HLL lacks a lot hence why some LOD's literally obstruct vision

[cosmic tiger]

3ds Max has many plugins that will do the work instantaneously and easilly too

I do a lot of 3dsmax stuff and cleaning up meshes is easy post-texture stage if done right

[cosmic tiger]

they deleted the #1097866142028152944 thread again, no reply this time

round 3?https://discord.com/channels/316459644476456962/1116922604398313572

[placid crow]

[earnest terrace]

the alamein hangars are tragic though. the beams mesh is 600k tris, but there's 2 of them in each hangar and like 5 hangars iirc

[stray bluff]

https://discord.com/channels/316459644476456962/1116922604398313572

[cosmic tiger]

It is pretty cordial, I did not insult the staff, simply put that this poor optimization, which every developer has bits of(I know, I've had to cleanse said optimization issues in games I have worked on), is a plaguing issue of certain assets ingame.
Refering to the support staff in what manner? Reporting an "issue"? It's an issue because it causes my game to hitch when I have the hardware to handle much more strenuous graphical demands typically. To state that it is simply a "Suggestion" as Team17Support account claims is a poor reference towards my issue with game asset optimization.
Team17's interaction with me was immediately hostile and because of that hostility I responded by reopening my issue. I never insulted or threatened any member, so I see little issue with this interaction beyond me wanting my "issue" addressed in the #1097866142028152944 section of the discord. It's an issue, not a suggestion.

@stray bluff That's perfectly reasonable, I don't expect a conversation of it, just airing my grievances that the initial response from T17 was hostile and I had concern about the issue they had with my ingame issue.
Thank you.

[stray bluff]

I am not replying to you regarding my cordial statement...

[weak meadow]

Thanks for sharing this. Does not come as a surprise that T17 reacts as they do when you call out how unoptimized the game is. It's nice to see that it could actually be fixed, however I don't think it will be but now at least we know why this game runs so bad on even the highest end hardware.

[viscid vine]

I'm not an expert, so excuse my ignorance. Are you saying that 2k tris can still maintain the same visual quality/details as 293 of 20k tris? Asking cus the sample you put with fewer tris doesn't look neat although I get it's just proof of concept, isn't it?

[hollow tree]

Are you sure they're using the LOD0 in game? Not saying this is not a valid concern but just extracting a static mesh asset may not tell the whole story.

[earnest terrace]

So typically you want to minimise the tris count and use a normal map, rma and bump maps to handle the small details wherever you can and you also use LOD models for anything far away from the player which they won't need to have detail. In HLL currently most of the models on some maps are at the kind of complexity you'd be using for large scale vfx in the filmmaking industry, things that are supposed to be used to prerender a scene which takes hours or even days to do. Most aren't like that but enough are to the point where it's a huge problem

[cosmic tiger]

And add on to this, was such a large render scales packaging and compressing Dev builds into potential live candidates can take hours if the system isn't optimized for bypassing prepackaged assets

What this means is that making a patch is an extremely time-consuming endeavor and this might be one of the reasons why they are so against hot fix patches. A homemade packaging software can be used to alleviate some of this and speed up the process, but that requires a coding base for it

@viscid vine most really high detail terrain you see in most high end games is actually very flat, using very intelligent PBR smart materials to create the bumps and unevenness of dirt and grass. With a smart rendering parameter, it can even increase or decrease the ground poly count based upon the radius away from player which would also improve the detail only within a distance of player would notice, essentially LOD ground. The smart materials also, with proper parameters, will do the same kind of work. They'd be less bumpy and less detailed at a distance as they render

Having this system built from the beginning helps a game significantly be optimized, but updating to that optimized system from a unoptimized system is a difficult endeavor if the proper steps aren't taken. Assets would have to be essentially rebuilt in certain areas, game engine logic would have tot be altered, and a coding background would have to be dived into

That's going to be alleviated with future assets being pre-optimized which unfortunately they are not doing or have not done with given assets from Black matter

[hard nacelle]

@weak meadow Indeed, I don't expect changes happening so soon but, keeping as much people informed as possible may be the first step towards this, basically everyone knows the game needs optimization and that it runs bad, but very little people ( basically us and a few others ) know how and why the situation is so bad. Every patch includes an "optimization" patch note, however now that we clearly see the issues, if nothing changes through the patch notes then we'll be on our right to keep enforcing these changes to T17 ( I hope it was understandable, I just woke up and english isn't my main language )

@viscid vine 2K tris is perfect for LOD ( Level of detail, its a kind of technique used in video games to swap high fidelity models into a lower quality one when viewed from a distance, meaning that the model is indeed much lower quality and looks dogshit, but since its being viewed from such long distance, you won't even make up the lost details ), the main benefit of this way of doing LOD's is that it is a quad geometry, meaning that the volume preservation will be as good as it can be, without any geometry stretching at all. So in a nutshell, it will just lose details and look smoother instead of messy and glitchy like most LOD's are in this game.

@hollow tree Unless a few specific assets are using LOD1 at first. I saw a few, because I have verified in game a few assets like the train tracks and rubble pile and both maintained the same level of quality, I literally never play Stalingrad because it literally runs 2fps on my pc so, I can't verify that, plus, Stalingrad buildings, Carentan bridges and Elamein hangar are big assets but with relatively "smooth" surfaces, so it will be pretty hard to know if they're using LOD0 without checking tri count or wireframe, though you can just look for stretching geometry or such, those are common issues with automatic LOD's

Im on my message limit but I'll continue asap ( 2 hours, smh )

[hard nacelle]

alright time is up again, lets see

@earnest terrace I did bake all the original high definition mesh into a normal map ( bump maps are obsolete and slower nowadays, only used for tesselation ), the issue with that rubble pile that I made is that the whole geometry is uniform, so everything will receive an equal amount of geometry, when most of the times it shouldn't be the case, some parts of the mesh should receive more detail than the others, not only that but vertex position is also important to highlight those "spiky" details of each rock, it gives more detail to the outline even if the poly count is kept the same, but since I literally just projected a subdivided plane into the existing mesh, then it didn't do any of this distribution. I could just decimate the original model and that would reduce poly count just as we need, but for some reason the whole mesh itself is separated into pieces, whereas mine is joined into one

[hard nacelle]

optimization ain't gonna be fixed anytime soon yeah LOL

[weak meadow]

👆

[coral shadow]

This is from 2020. See how it looks? Normal for a tank. Meanwhile, 2023 and the whole texture is buggy when you are running the game on low (looks like you've put it inside a frier with hot oil for the night) and shines way way too much.

"Smart materials"

[livid pawn]

Could someone show the textures of the new british firefly,? When I saw it the first time, the decals might have been the worst I've seen in the game so far.

[hard nacelle]

sadly because of the way ""smart materials"" work, the models are unreadable outside of the engine and are way more performance hitting than they should LOL

[earnest terrace]

^ when we were trying to use them for some renders we had to recreate the materials ourselves in a less terrible way

[indigo prawn]

Now i understand why hll runs so bad, i can't begin to imagine how much of hit to performance are certain assets like buildings in carentan, or the big hedgerows in maps like smdm or utah, that get reused a lot, also wondering about the wrecks about vehicles and planes, as some people report frame drops near them.

Also, now that we know the issue we can track if the "optimization patches" fix something, but i'm guessing that in order to fix all the models it would take them a year easily

[proud remnant]

love how they are removing posts about this
anyways, old textures look better

[coral shadow]

Then how about an update just to get those done, and reduce polygons for all assets across maps? Iirc maps from Du Mont onwards had the ability to change 1 asset from the source and each and every one of them would be fixed automatically, if they've kept Danny's methodology.

Would looove to be able to play at 40 stable; no stuttering, no lag

[cosmic tiger]

That's called proxy editing

A model is uploaded and then a super low poly version(or just a box can do as well lol) is placed around the map. The game then references the uploaded model and inserts it based upon the axis of orientation the proxy low poly object has

This means that they only have to edit One singular file to disseminate the changes to all the proxied items

[candid merlin]

Is there any proper statement to this?

[coral shadow]

Calgon cleans 99'9% of bacteria; if that isn't a proper statement...
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61OVMrw5mhL._AC_SY879_.jpg

[exotic comet]

That problem should be number one on their roadmap, I wonder where all the tris went in the trailer

[hard nacelle]

my statement : if U15 sucks, then we all move to post scriptum and mod that whole game to look as pretty as HLL and run better than ever before ❤️

[placid crow]

Bumping this up because it's an important topic.

[weak meadow]

Deal !

[safe sparrow]

Great!

[hexed cipher]

It’s pretty much guaranteed to suck. 13.5 was disaster. Everyone complained. No changes made. U14 was disaster. Everyone complained. No changes made. Trailer was disaster. Everyone complained. T17 releases canned statement they know players are upset but plan to keep to their current release schedule. There’s a clear pattern of poor craftsmanship. U15 will be a disaster

[hard nacelle]

well, I still didn't take a look how post scriptum modding really works but, its modding! and the only missing quality features for post scriptum to look good really is the assets and animations, both which a small community can easily handle, if HLL doesn't take this modding path it will be either brute forcing performance mods ( through .uassets and .uexep editing, which is cheating and can lead to people literally deleting foliage ) or just a downfall of the game overall

[hard nacelle]

U15 coming, possibly delayed? ( it should ) if so, its yet time again to bother them about this again

[placid crow]

Stated in today's dev brief, Update 15 has been delayed, and it's encouraging to know that QA resources have been increased. However, there hasn't been any mention of addressing the poor map optimization yet. While there are multiple priorities to consider, it remains crucial to continue discussing this topic and conduct further research in order to understand the necessary steps for improving map optimization and effectively communicate it to the developers.

[coral shadow]

Yes please, if you can squeeze a couple FPS and fix the LOD issues while at it, that would be golden. Specially for non-ensentials like those airdrome roofings and stuff

[hard nacelle]

its pretty clear by now that most people on this chat know the issue, know how to fix it and the reasons why it should be fixed asap, if any community manager is up to discussing and sending the message to a developers, this is the post for it, there is no such "HEY, OPTIMIZE UR GAME CAUSE IT HAS BAD PERFORMANCE", we made all the reasons clear, even technically, this post is rich in information and that's valuable for feedback, specially with a clear solution proposed

[lethal grail]

[cosmic tiger]

Dare i poke a wombat? 🤔

[hard nacelle]

not sure if she can do much about it but, sure that could be good, maybe DM her about this post cause talking through here sure would be a hassle, if everything goes well then it would be handy to create a group chat about it with her in it, if she has any doubts or anything like that

[heady kettle]

they are not going to listen because they do not listen to feedback

[silent vault]

After reading this all and checking the photos, holy hell....that's just...Jesus.

[uncut wolf]

[turbid gorge]

[swift iris]

[fickle aurora]

[icy ice]

[worthy yew]

I have abolutly no clue about 3D modeling, but are there any references (e.g. Post Scriptum) for similar buildings? 1 mio doesn't seem to be that high for the size of this building.

[final shadow]

Bridge maps don't suffer from performance issues, but I guess unoptimized objects can be the cause of performance issues on lagging maps.

As far as I've read, if they were to use LOD for bridges, we wouldn't be able to see for example those tower windows on the other side of Remager bridge due to poor graphics, but since the bridges are so detailed, we still can

[empty swan]

No. LOD is a shorthand for level of detail. A very common trick used in practically any game, HLL included, is a system called HLOD, which swaps out objects with variants that have a lower LOD as you move further away from them. Since they're far away, you won't need many of the finer details anymore and by trimming down on those you can greatly enhance performance.

There's a few problems with some of HLL's assets, however:

• Some assets have an insanely high LOD, which, especially when you put down a bunch of them, can severely impact performance. Yet there is no need for objects to have such great fidelity, as you really wouldn't be able to notice it even when looking at it from up close. (Several examples posted here)
• Certain assets are missing lower LOD variants, and as a result are unreasonably detailed despite being far away.
• Certain assets have automatically generated lower LOD variants, which does not really take into account the shape of the structure, and as a result makes it look like a melted ice cream. (Omaha is a prime example of this)
• Certain larger assets like the Remagen bridge should be split up into multiple smaller assets so that HLOD can affect one part of the bridge without affecting another. However, that is not the case.

[sage dagger]

This is fascinating

[cosmic tiger]

@empty swan nailed it

The fact they don't create LOD2 or 3 and just use an auto reduction software, you get those lost windows @final shadow.

Great example of excessive LOD is rocks. Not boulders, but the tiny rocks. Most are the large boulder shrunk down and spammed all over. You can get pretty damn good looking tiny floor rocks with a poly count of like 30 or even less using some nifty texture with some parameters. Instead we have some stupidly high poky count at LOD0, when at 100m these rocks should be like 6 polys and beyond that 0 and hidden

[hard nacelle]

@worthy yew I don't have PS but I can say that stalingrad buldings could at the very least be separated into pieces instead of the 1 million whole mesh, and even then for such game you should avoid at all cost reaching that amount of geometry, granted that done in the right way shouldn't be an issue

@final shadow they absolutely do, they just happen to not have as much geometry density as other maps ( e.g specially stalingrad ), the optimization issue affects all maps because there are very few props actually optimized

Abu and Ryknow are pretty aware of all the issues too so if anything you could all just ask them about it, if ya'll have any doubts ( which I suspect all have been cleared up here by this point ) im up to answer them in DM's ( or here if slowmode wasn't so long ) 👌

Now its all up to hopes that Wombat will see this and hopefully we'll get results

[cosmic tiger]

We got a mod response so now we just need @sage dagger to poke wombat/T17 ;D

The best way they can fix up a lot of the poly issues is via proxy mesh placement for map construction
I'm not too versed in Unreal map editing software, but have done map creation via secondary means and with proxy assets they can fix a lot of the issues in a sweep

Fixing these and making sure the texture unwrap isn't ruined can be time consuming, but the good news is that these kind of asset adjustments can be done separate from the main development branch and implemented piecemeal or whole without compromising the main working dev branch

Ergo; They can work on new/fixing content and do these optimizations as they come without a lot of issue with dev branch merging issues

[hard nacelle]

they are using proxy mesh, since there is not a specific map "mesh" ( that is a dumb idea either way ), so they can easily just edit assets and update them without a hassle, coders won't even have to worry, the whole process is straight forward and simple but like you mentioned, time consuming, but c'mon, they have the whole depot at their disposal, they won't have to worry of using UE viewer to do that LOL, it should take at max 1 - 2 weeks at full work, and it will be a hell of an accessibility expansion for people with bad computers, easy payoff

[weak meadow]

This begs the question: why is it not getting done ? Game just gets worse performance after each update. Laziness ? Incompetence?

[warm arch]

that is exactly the right question ! ! ! 💯

to which we need an answer because the problem is not new but years old.

[cosmic tiger]

The answer is that BM assets were not handled correctly for this simple optimization pass

2 artists working 40hr/w would take probably 4 weeks to optimize everything currently and that's doing nothing but that for those 4 weeks. Add onto it that the objects could be poorly unwrapped texture wise and mesh optimization may destroy the model's appearance. "

If the asset isn't created in the proper order of operations, going back and fixing them may prove extra consuming. One mesh could take 3x as long if the unwrap is poor, the model optimization isn't thought of prior to packing, and more.

It boils down to how they were made, what file type, how they were unwrapped, and how they were packed. Dedicating a limited artist group to focus fire this would be expensive and draw off of other asset teams. Artist A is only good at structures, Artist B is for Trees/Foliage, etc etc
You'd be cycling who's doing the optimization passes and it would halt any other direction of work related to that artist's specialty. Working on assets not yours in creation is also very frustrating and I have many of times said screw it and remade the asset from scratch for less hassle.

[earnest terrace]

This could be split over a larger period of time perfectly fine though, there's nothing stopping it from being worked on over the next 6 months and improving the game as a whole significantly by the end of it. Even if only some of the most common assets are optimised it could have a huge impact. Take the rubble piles for example, if all of those were fixed it would have a noticeable impact on every map using a lot of them, which is a lot of the maps.

[hard nacelle]

clearly they haven't bothered in optimizing any since early access, a few years back, and about the unwrapping that shouldn't be much of an issue because most of those assets I showed use tiled textures ( unwrapping stalingrad building manually would be hell so, automatic unwrapping could be used too )

[coral shadow]

bump for further awareness

[dusky meteor]

HLL should hire you

[hard nacelle]

welp, there's a 3 man crew here aware of the problem and solutions

[empty swan]

T17 should be more than capable of fixing these assets. It's nothing complicated, just somewhat time consuming.

[placid crow]

The community seems to be doing a better job at identifying performance issues than the developers themselves. Perhaps the developers should consider allowing the community to handle the polishing work on assets, while they solely focus on quality assurance before implementing them into the game. This also could potentially save them time fixing other issues.

[coral shadow]

Then the expertd that know how to do that should be hired and paid. If you're creating stuff but fail at optimizing those you may be a good artist but a poor videogame one

[cosmic tiger]

Yep

With certain rendering and cad programs, you can get some well detailed and amazing meshes

Stick those said CAD files into a game enmass and you have a nice campfire for a computer

[proud remnant]

how many triangles does the average LOD model have?

[empty swan]

That heavily depends on what it is supposed to represent and how detailed it's supposed to be. Generally it's about softening objects up just enough so that it isn't really noticeable. When in-game, move up close to another soldier and look at how their helmet is curved for instance. You can actually see distinctive lines instead of a smooth circle. Someone in here also posted another example of what an optimized model could look like, with actual triangle counts; #1111478900153921608 message

[hard nacelle]

I've been spending the last couple of days figuring out the best way to optimize that rubble pile whilst maintaining max quality, the best solution I could think of is using Vector Displacement, which takes an RGB image and displaces the vertices, like a height map but with crevice information, so far no luck and im afraid manual work will be the only way, I'll find a solution eventually, the greatest issue so far was the rubble pile being a bunch of pieces together, so if nothing really works its either my solution I did a while back ( no crevices ), or manual retopo ( a lot of work )

[gaunt comet]

Here are some more examples. Honestly, the list could go on and on. Also, something I've noticed is how a lot of the ground is modelled, to a large amount of detail too. I'm not the most educated on this topic I'll admit, but to me it seems like they should really be using parallax occlusion mapping, if they aren't already. Which doesn't seem likely at all, due to the large number of ground prefabs that are fairly detailed.

[wanton mesa]

this seriously needs something done about it lmao

[hard nacelle]

I actually thought it was POM when I first started playing, I just started at the ground while moving and saw the transitions, I thought the idea of using actual geometry too absurd but well it was!

I gave a last attempt at this, the VDM idea didn't work and I was growing tired, so this is my last one, 40k tris, sure it is 20k more than my last attempt but at least it kept the crevices, and now its all up to baking a normal map with the 3.6 million triangle re-meshed pile because I can, and it also merges the mesh nicely and fixes any weird shading 🥰

to be fair, with proper materials and texture the lack of detail should be pretty unnoticeable, while 40k isn't great at least it is 260k

[hollow tree]

Keep in mind players dive on these piles on the regular so their camera will be right up there, I wouldn't decimate a ground mesh this hard. I'd keep that pile at least at 120k. I am lmaoing at the 18K tris literal box and 267K tris simple arch structure though. Lazy artists or impossible deadlines? Surely these are not the versions used ingame?! 😂

[weak meadow]

How are those beams 600k+ 👀 Like what the...

[empty swan]

You can give curves as many triangles as you want 🤷

[hard nacelle]

120k still sounds like a lot for an environment mesh, for the rubble pile it is important to at the very least keep the pointy silhouette ( which my previous attempt smoothed out completely ), visually it looks butter smooth when compared to the high poly one but im confident baking the normals would handle that, along with the rock textures which would mask a bit of the low polyness, 80k - 120k is the range for a character

@weak meadow they made the curvy surface as smooth as possible and each of the bolts and beams are modeled instead of a texture

[raven fable]

BMPL resorted to such assets for ease of high-quality content implementation and material replacement. This has been increasingly increasingly normalized in game engines since around 2019 or earlier. Not sure which year.

Nowadays, even the cutscenes are done as real-time in-world rendered ones. Ghostwire: Tokyo is a UE4 example of that, but games that also used real-time rendering and photogrammetry assets for cinematic sequences also include Decima Engine games, maybe Frostbite engine products, maybe IW8/9 engine games, and more.

Granted, those products also leveraged texture streaming and LOD systems to make it all work and sometimes hold up.

This game, meanwhile, is known to have screwed with the Scalability Group parameters too much, have incorrect rendering pipeline handlings for DXGI shader enumerations, and is one bad project cook away from having even more bugs introduced in existing assets.

[hard nacelle]

advanced shaders and dense meshes are much more common nowadays for sure ( especially after UE5 ), but we always pay off with VRAM or disk, and in this case we pay off with performance too because it is UE4 with multiplayer and km's large maps, its just the stress test for any computer 😰

[weak meadow]

I'm wondering though. Why isn't it maxing out one component? CPU and GPU can literally be sitting there at 50% load while it runs like absolute crap.

[empty swan]

CPUs are made up of several cores (usually 6/8/12), each of which can run calculations entirely independently from other cores. It allows applications to be parallelized. Some applications can be designed in a way that it utilizes a lot or even as many cores as possible, however, for games this isn't really possible. Problem being that you can't easily have interactions between cores. As such, you will see that a game rarely ever utilizes more than a few cores, often hammering down on one in particular. If any of those cores is being maxed out, it will cause a bottleneck.

HLL, but also similar games like Squad, are not only single-threaded (= what I described above), but also heavily CPU-bound, meaning that a lot of the calculations have to be made by the CPU, not the GPU.

[raven fable]

Hang on, Unreal Engine 4 does not have as much of the core limitation UE3 used to. Why are you insinuating that they do only have a one or two-thread limitation at most?

[hollow tree]

Because it's extremely difficult to program multi-threaded software

[hard nacelle]

UE3 my beloved 😍 I can't say how HLL utilizes CPU because mine is at 100% during all gameplay ( i5-3470, yes it is really f bad and there is no optimization that can be done besides code that can improve this, I won't cope ), however my GPU is a 1050ti, which isn't great but is above the min requirements, if I wasn't CPU bottlenecked I doubt I would be getting great performance either, the assets that I saw... its something that I can't unsee 💀

[hard nacelle]

hey fellas, how was this patch so far? excited for U15?

[raven fable]

Project cooking at it again.

[weak meadow]

Not at all looking forward to U15. This game is done. RIP 🥹 They cut the render distance even further down now. What are they thinking??

[steel sandal]

[craggy jacinth]

I don't know if this has already been said, but these apre probably lod_0, so the version of the model that gets loaded when you are VERY close to it. still unoptimized as sh*t, but they won't be rendered all the time.

[earnest terrace]

Zero optimisation, zig zagging still happening, dolphin dive spamming still happening, the brit guns are no longer shooting high... they're shooting low and it's twice as bad as before because now you can't even see the target, the lewis gun sways even MORE than before and brit AT guns are still immortal. the only things which were actually fixed are the constant lost connection to host, moving while in scoreboard and xp rewards

[tall zenith]

Entirely random, but can someone get the particle effect for the burning tanks? I swear there's something insanely broken about the fire/smoke effect on damaged tank that brings my fps down 80%.

[vast anvil]

Are team17's 'professional' tester team members the same people that made the trailer?🤯 🤭

[weak meadow]

Rendering distance on Carentan down to 200m on several objects .The list goes on. Apparently their way of fixing things is to just not let it render 😂

[warm arch]

a great game .....
fun fact there is an enemy tank somewhere back there

[placid crow]

Is this a new bug?

[coral shadow]

yeah i heard that those have their own set of problems.

Funny thing is, you can't see an enemy tank over 1000m, but if he's damaged, you'll be able to see those particles anywhere in the map. Broken af

[hard nacelle]

if the update did worse than helping then that is a big red flag, and reducing the rendering distance as "optimization" is unbelievably pathetic, so now its 3 options, either we wait for U15 to see how things go ( probably real bad ), brute force modding optimizations, which would need a competent team to create such modifiers whilst still keeping it private so that people can't abuse it, or moving to post scriptum and modifying it to the point of being comparable to HLL, which sucks for us because neither are something that we were supposed to do in the first place! 🥴 Also goes without saying that if we were to mod HLL that would be cheating and potentially cause bans if T17 were to implement a solution for it, and it would merely work visually and sound wise ( it sure would be sick to play optimized HLL with some Post Scriptum sound design quality though )

[empty swan]

Above image is how things have been pretty much since the beginning, no? Especially on Carentan LODs are pretty aggressive. Add to that a crazy tank zoom and you get this.

[hard nacelle]

alright, let me just make this one thing clear, is this "patch" really 39gb????????? WHAT IS THAT DUDE, HOW, now I need to know what optimization the code needs cause DAMN

[feral slate]

[bronze oyster]

Dang is that why it runs like crap

[coral shadow]

From your experience, and eyeballing, what would the results of switching from that automatic LOD devs use to manually cutting down polygon counts while retaining the shape of objects? (performance hit/buff, workload...)

Is it feasible to make a 3-4 instances of each asset (say, fully drawn, some detail, barebones) on a game with that many of them?

Mainly asking because of the huge issue of things not rendering but blocking shots, pings, etc

[empty swan]

It's not. Some had to download 18 MB, others 200 MB. It then had to patch 37 GB. That's how every single update works. You download some files, and they have to be merged with a bunch of other, existing files.

[raven fable]

More specifically, written to the game's 38GB PAK file located in Steam/steamapps/common/Hell Let Loose/HLL/Content/Paks, file name HLL-WindowsNoEditor.pak, which contains all game content and assets.

[toxic turret]

[hidden estuary]

[cosmic tiger]

Most 3D model editing programs come with automatic methods that retain the shape and there's other plugins that can be used to help with LOD

Typically a auto rendering program is used to help make the shape form and layout of an asset mesh(this is typically how you get those million poly count meshes as these programs are not designed for optimization, they are designed to give you the shapes and layouts and designs you desire no matter the cost). Then that is run through a processing plugin that can reduce the poly count and retain shape

Manual LOD work is not really something that's done much anymore nowadays

[hard nacelle]

@coral shadow the automatic way of doing it ain't so bad, dunno if UE auto LOD is any different from Blender decimate but choosing to do it for stuff like buildings or fences ( which shouldn't have a high poly count in first place ) probably won't work well depending on the shape ( usually you want to use it for curvy things ) and its best to remove geometry manually, which isn't hard at all just time consuming

[crude knoll]

i'm legit confused. Why something that could be 4 (more or less) rectangles, has 65 (15 each)k triangles (windmill wings)? or ammo box with 17k... could you provide images where those trinagles are visible? This thread kind of explained to me how Battlebit is able to run 250 players on (quite) old gpus and high framerate while hll can't.

[earnest terrace]

To expand on this typically the most you'll have is one thread for rendering, one for the main game/physics loop and another for networking. There might also be smaller specific tasks being threaded throughout that but generally speaking those are exceptions.

Trying to thread more than that would actually make the game slower in a lot of cases. Due to how you cannot guarantee an order of execution between a given set of threads, there needs to be a "main" thread controlling the others. Problem is, things in a game need to be done in the right order. You can't try to calculate it a bullet hit a player if the player's position from the last physics step wasn't updated yet for example, which means that the "main" thread ends up having to wait for other threads to finish certain tasks. JavaScript's async/await syntax is a pretty good show of exactly how it works. You can call an async (threaded) function with a set of inputs but after that it just does it's thing, so you have to wait for it to finish if you want to gauruntee order of execution. There's also the other problem that threads can't easily share data, because one thread may modify it while another is reading it, which obviously causes errors. Solution is that you start locking resources etc which is slow, but tldr multi threaded code is a giant pain to get working. Not to mention this is also all within UE's bounds, and stuff like async physics steps were only introduced very recently in UE5

[gaunt comet]

Something like this i'd expect to be an absolute maximum of 3k tris, depends on how much detail you actually need. 18k for something as small as this is ridiculous. Why it needs more than 12 tris is because of the extra detail in the model, such as the nails, clips, handle and general definition. The windmill has a large number of tris because it's supposed to be cloth and you need a lot of geometry to work with cloth for animation, this is just my assumption FYI. I don't work in this sphere or know the ins and outs of game development. But why they would animate it I have no idea, Hell Let Loose doesn't need it. It would be fine if it was static and lower poly count.

Edit: I can't send another message or photo, but I was going to show that over 50% of the model's poly count goes towards the 'nails?' (button looking things). 10.3k tris on them alone, because some modeller for some reason decided to make something that's 3mm in size really high definition.

[wise gazelle]

I’d have assumed those smaller details would end up on a normal map?

[cosmic tiger]

Yep, they'd then appear 3d but actually be flat
@gaunt comet the rivets are cad made more than likely

[proud remnant]

Are these models out-sourced or produced in-doors?

[wanton mesa]

I think its a bit of both, some Im pretty sure are outsourced, like the character models. But some are in house. dont quote me on that tho

[gaunt comet]

It's difficult to say. It's not really possible to know how they operate unless you work in house of course. It's predominantly texture work for environments and buildings that tends to be outsourced, and only sometimes models depending on the project.

[empty swan]

In the past, prior to U10's release, they showed some of the behind the scenes of the russian models made by their in-house artist

[proud remnant]

Can you send me the video?

[empty swan]

It was a caption in a dev brief, or at least that's what I remembered. Been scrolling through dev briefs for the past 15 minutes and couldn't find anything, so maybe I'm going crazy.

[crude knoll]

tbh makes no sense why something this small would have to have extra so much 'detail' to it. you really won't notice the nails are so 'detailed' unless you get really close (like i didn't ever look at ammo box, why anyone would? didn't even notice those 'nails'), not to mention i'm pretty sure textures on most of these 'ultra detailed models' aren't that great anyway?

[misty light]

Yup, this explains a lot!

[coral shadow]

Maybe @zinc wigeon knows about any of this as he was close in touch with the dev team

[silent mica]

Of course they would say that because they are trying to deflect what you have found because to fix they would basically have to rebuild the game

[pale berry]

[zinc wigeon]

https://tenor.com/view/who-me-grandpa-grandfather-gif-21979773

[proud remnant]

spot the issue

[crude wharf]

Sorry what, is that 786,432 tris???

[weak meadow]

😱

[hard nacelle]

LOL, definitively the best example of HLL models in a nutshell

[hard nacelle]

I did some research and testing and, so far the only issue found to mod HLL is editing the files themselves, there's one UE unpacker which exported .uasset files and even a damn .uproject, and also a way to apparently take the files and repack them into the .pak file, sadly the .uproject didn't load and UE4 didn't recognize the .uasset files, there's a few blender addons which I tested to import the .uasset file and it was kinda 99% broken, so im doubting HLL modding will be possible anytime soon, it really is a shame that UE Viewer can easily export assets but can't import/replace any ( at least the mesh ), though I should've figured this would be much more complex than simply replacing mesh/texture files, PS modding or an open source Godot project sound like the most interesting options ( there's also Operation Harsh Doorstop, that one could work too most likely ) 😭

[vast anvil]

Please allow us to edit those game files, we will fix the game ourselves to a point that no one will be playing the vanilla version anymore

[proud remnant]

just modelling some rubble, dont see anything wrong here.... right?

[weak meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/bartlett-west-wing-head-desk-gif-6012433

[coral shadow]

with dozens of rubble piles on Carentan, now i understand why people complain about very poor performance

[vague pendant]

now everything gets crystal clear and super makes sense why the BM has abandoned their game in such haste and leave a technical wreckage behind.
well played guys! following that topic for almost a week and what i've seen here is nothing more than an absolute disaster! carentan, stuttergrad, the whole game guys....
to properly optimize the game T17 needs to begin from scratch. I remember how the community were literally begging to BM to optimize the game since day one.
yet they kept saying that "no worries lads we're on it no worries just a little patience" oh dear...
And now we see... 1 million triangle/polygon apartment blocks and 100k debris and etc and etc. o' my good lord... good luck T17. genuinely and sincerely i wish you the best.

[violet hatch]

It absolutely makes no logical sense to have this BS going on with these assets. Really unfortunate that Danny isn't here anymore, would love to ask him some questions about this. Always keep in mind though guys: "A team of overachieving super stars."

[wanton mesa]

Danny would've found some excuse

[proud remnant]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[crude knoll]

i mean, they could at least start with small steps, like optimizing assets that are very common on many (all?) maps, and work from there? like rocks, bridges, buildings (how many unique buildings we have? i believe there is like 5-10 unique buildings, and most maps just reuse them).

@proud remnant what about snow piles on foy? i assume those are also heavy on complexity? 😄

[craggy jacinth]

I really believe that they can actually pull it off. We‘ll see

[vague pendant]

It's super doable if they're willing. within couple months at most they might establish a properly optimized solid map asset base for existing maps. that'd immensely ease their optimization problems and allow them to investigate / optimize the core game even more easier. they can pull it off pal!
@craggy jacinth hundred percent! guys above did such a fantastic job by adressing the situation in detail. HLL community proved its enthusiasm and goodwill again instead ignoring it. this is something mate. big thanks and kudos to our fellow nerds here! our chads are awesome!

[turbid gorge]

Maybe they are doing that with the PHL map refresh

@cosmic tiger dang, that would stink. Wouldn’t be much of a “refresh”

[cosmic tiger]

Issue is if they're still using the same asset library pack without updating it they could redesign the map without actually hitting any optimization goals

[craggy jacinth]

This is the enthusiasm I want to hear. I mean we’re all tired of talking about the trailer, but you REALLY rarely see a company turn around and accept their mistake like they did. Really hopeful for the future.

[hollow tree]

Based morale booster

[proud remnant]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/262356939583782913/928644631393108029/IMG_3615.gif

[hard nacelle]

I just saw this, could you screenshot one of those? not sure which snow piles ur talkin bout

[wise gazelle]

Probably the long berms along the perimeter of the fields

[coral shadow]

Lets not let this thread die, its golden. What about the houses and shop windows in Eglise and other maps, are they also modelled to absurd poly counts?

[shrewd moon]

So the thing is with unreal 5 you have A new technology for rendering objects called Nanite technology its using as the post sugessted millions of triangels for A more detailed look on the object. This technology is very usefull rendering objects grater distances and still having A very detailed and realistic look. So should it be used in the game? Yes and No I would say models like houses and rocks and other objects that A bullet wont penetrate just because you are removing the problem sniper faces when trying to shoot over 200 meters and things wont simply load in in that distance.The other thing with triangles in objects in unreal is the higher quality the item is the higher the amount of triangles so As i mentioned you get A much more detailed look. However Low to hight detailed objects/items will load in in LOD(Level of detail) stages from High which is very close to the object to low which is far from the object and giving the object A very 2D LOD and even further away from the object will make the object not visible At all. So there you have it folks little explanation and if its not enough go on and google it and search for something like NANITE technology in unreal 5. 😄

[craggy jacinth]

An engine upgrade takes months at least. I’ve thought about this too. But this won’t happen.

[hard nacelle]

porting form UE4 to UE5 shouldn't take much work, most of it should be just playtesting to find bugs ( if only Hell Let Loose had a test version for the community to use haha ), though from what we saw at the trailer, the new devs seem to be having difficulties to use UE4, imagine porting to UE5, this should've been a task for Black Matter

[violet hatch]

Always keep in mind the old devs repeatedly harped on about how porting from UE4 to UE5 would add nothing of value and woulc cause more issues than it would potentially fix. Then again we have this absolute disaster on our hands so I wonder how much truth there actually was to those words..

[hollow tree]

You're not gonna have a good time porting 6 years of dev first to 4.27 and then to 5.2

[weak meadow]

Then again, they are also the ones that have developed this stinking pile of sh*t with billions of triangles that struggles to ruin on the highest end HW. I honestly don't care much about what they say. And the new team does not appear to have much skill either. It's a sad state of affairs for HLL right now

[hard nacelle]

@violet hatch Nanite is a big deal for what they wanted this game to be, using "cinematic" assets

@hollow tree if they're not willing to optimize then this team would at the very least make nanite an option to use, also where did you see the port to 4.27 info? So far I've been using 4.25plus in UEViewer, anything else seems like it just caused an error

[hollow tree]

@hard nacelle any customizations to the engine they've made up to this point will complicate porting massively, and many blueprints may straight up break, same with assets which may find their references going missing, etc. It's not an easy process. UE5 is not a magic bullet for performance either. As far as I see, HLL uses stationary lighting and WPO materials for foliage. Baked lighting with nanite requires using VSM, which currently has big performance problems with WPO and is more expensive to begin with. I don't think the game's fps is GPU bound for any RTX card anyway, it's the CPU that clocks out first, and Nanite will do little to improve that. So no, UE5 is not some easy one-and-done solution.

[weak meadow]

Nothing clocks out on higher end HW. Both CPU and GPU will be far from utilized

[violet hatch]

That's quite literally the point I was making. How the actual hell can you take somebody seriously, who messes up their assets so amateurishly bad.

[hard nacelle]

it should mostly be code wise that may break, which indeed is a shame but again, they're a team, and I doubt they've modified the engine in any way ( still shouldn't be an excuse ), I could be wrong as I've not paid much attention to HLL lighting but I doubt it is baked lightmaps ( I'll definitively verify this ), I've seen a video about WPO with VSM and how it degrades performance specially on foliage, but simply disabling it by X distance would already handle the problem at least for the most part, and to be fair, HLL foliage stops moving quite shortly ( also changes to billboard in about 100m ), and small detail foliage only renders for about 10 - 20m on the lowest settings, but then again these should be the compromises they should do if they want to keep these high quality assets in game. Also I can happily say that the game is not CPU bound, I've been playing with an i5-3470 for a while now and it was basically unplayable, I changed to a Xeon E3-1230 V2 ( which has a similar score to my GPU ) and now it stays at an average 50 - 60% when there's a lot of stuff going on, however my GPU now is struggling to keep at 60fps ( 1050ti ) at the lowest settings

sorry for the long text LOL, I was being really specific

[wise gazelle]

As far as I know HLL is also heavily physics based since U6 ballistics update, and they’d need to port from PhysX to Chaos Physics for a port to UE5, not to mention any other deprecated functions they’re using from older 4.x versions.

[hollow tree]

Have you checked individual threads?

[weak meadow]

yup. only thing that will max out the GPU is enabling DX12. But that causing stuttering for most people ,myself included

[coral shadow]

bump

[hard nacelle]

im not sure what else can be discussed here, we went through all the problems, solutions, any hiccup that could show up during development ( being literal boredom for this repetitive yet necessary work ), ig the only exciting thing that could happen now is a HLL dev showing up or at the very least Wombat with a response 😔

[broken cave]

I won't hold my breath

[weak meadow]

Same...

[coral shadow]

So... hope for the best?

[vague pendant]

Not a good sign mate... kudos to you guys anyway. You did everything you'd and beyond. Hats off

[cosmic tiger]

I guess a poke is finally warranted... Hello Ms. @unborn vapor

[coral shadow]

whomever succeeded Dany should take a deep look at this thread xd

[weak meadow]

👆

[unborn vapor]

Thanks everyone, there are a lot of interesting comments in here. I'll continue, going through the thread 🙂

[wanton mesa]

!!! \o/

[soft whale]

Always the assets

[queen spear]

👀

[weary fulcrum]

Pushing up. This issue must be looked

[hard nacelle]

I moved to PS sorry boys, my hell is not loose anymore 😔

[proud remnant]

noooooo!

[turbid gorge]

Bye

[coarse nest]

No, most certainly not.

[wanton mesa]

🤭

[south ridge]

Can someone explain me in simpler words what the problems of these 3D models is, those computer prophets uncovered? I really dont get it, Im not into coding and all that

[coarse nest]

People seem to think these models are the cause of performance issues, not seeing the reasoning behind them. Plus they are ripped from the game, not showing the engines full capabilities.

[placid crow]

Assets extracted from the game show a very high polygon count, which refers to the number of flat surfaces that make up an object. These polygons affect the smoothness of the surface and become more noticeable when zoomed in. The problem with a high polygon count is that it requires more processing power from your hardware to render these objects.

In most games, different levels of detail (LOD) are used for objects based on their distance from the player. This helps balance quality and processing power. However, in Hell Let Loose, there are many high-polygon objects that strain hardware resources. Some of these objects also lack different LOD levels, so they are always rendered at their highest level of detail regardless of how far away the player is.

I hope I have understood it correctly.

[wanton mesa]

thing is aswell many props have an unnecessarily high polygon count. In any other game if you look at small props and details the models will be very blocky or lacking smoothness. many small hll props do not seem to do this and when they're placed many times in an area it will impact performance

[coral shadow]

plus a huge amount of props laying around the map. lets clear up those trenches

[flat iron]

Bump. Very interesting read.

[coarse nest]

But those LODs or HLODs werent extracted from the gamefiles, so they should still be in the game, just not shown. Also triangles are perfectly okay, even better then memory spend on higher resolution normal maps. Also, HLL is CPU heavy, not GPU heavy, modern hardware handles triangles much better then drawcalls and memory.

[wise gazelle]

Not to mention frames being server-bound by relying on ballistic physics for every single projectile (since U6)

[wanton mesa]

I imagine poor performance is both a result of bad coding and poor model optimization

[vast anvil]

I was really hoping the devs would adress this issue, either here or their recent dev blog. Some textures arent even that good in the game, i'd rather see less 3d models but with better textures, who can actually fake 3dimensionality to a certain point as well. Overall the game looks great tho I must say, and performance, consitency and rendering at a distance is far more important then perfect textures or more/better 3d.

[coarse nest]

Wasnt it a mix of raycasting and projectiles?

@wanton mesa Nah, its just alot to handle, 100 players in a game like this is alot. I wouldnt call it bad tho.

@vast anvil Such as? You referring to the trees?

Just to ask, while you play the game, what is your CPU and GPU and how much is it utilized in %?

[lethal grail]

👍

[earnest terrace]

Try tanking and you'll immediately realise that absolutely nothing renders correctly. Past about 200m most "small" (not building sized, or in stalingrad's case even entire buildings and walls) props stop rendering entirely even if they block shots, even stuff like the giant hay bales on Foy stop rendering. It's extremely janky and obnoxious to work around

[coarse nest]

Thats a whole other issue then optimization from this topic here. Thats just increasing render distances or making custom LODs and then HISM the assets at those distances.

[coral shadow]

well, its closely related, since right now you either get those super high poly assets, or nothing at all

[wise gazelle]

Pretty sure it was a mix prior to U6, tanks and snipers certainly had ballistics, the rest probably raycasting (line trace); but since U6 they implemented ballistics for every weapon, presumably using UE4 physics, which does a line trace between frames for collision detection; but they may also have a custom implementation.

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/686810/view/2228662320402646589

[coarse nest]

@wise gazelle No idea tbh, what did the dev briefs say?

@coral shadow No, thats not the case, you have hi poly assets, then LODs and then on the majority HLOD. Some fail and need ISM or longer HLOD distances with custom LODs.

[hard nacelle]

I forgot about this, @coarse nest LOD's sure are better than spending a load of VRAM with normal maps but some of those models are just absurd, plus, models like stalingrad building or its props are all joined into one, so the game is just flooded with a lot of triangles, if those parts were separated then LOD could be done efficiently ( there's also that weird road with 300k tris for no reason ), the game is not that CPU bound, as of recently I changed from an I5-3th gen to a Xeon E3-1230 V2, back then I was getting 100% usage, now it only gets on average 50% - 70%, while my GTX 1050TI struggles

[coarse nest]

Drawcalls were the main issue for HLL, also, merging and making custom single LODs and or adding custom single LODs per whole building is cheapest.

Roads need a higher tricount to get bumpy details, plus the splines have lovely LODs that LOD incredibly fast, so that shouldnt matter.To get a random look down a long road you need to tessellate in worldspace rather then making repeating tiling meshes and seeing the tiling over distance. You need the triangles to displace those verts well because players get down to the floor to almost pixel level.

For the CPU its a bit of a hit and miss, most CPUs were handling this not well, getting fully utilized quickly. Drawcall optimizations and reducing the amount of actors works super well and was the right direction to go. Now that there is a different CPU that handles it well, your GPU does the heavy lifting, this makes sense, thats how it works.

Instances, HISMs or ISMs were way more heavy over a single higher poly mesh with LODs and custom LOD at the end.

[vast anvil]

This should be addressed during the AMA

[coral shadow]

Definitely

[pale berry]

Nice

[tender gale]

[crude knoll]

meanwhile battlebit devs announce they decreased amount of tris on whole map makes me wonder how many (on single map) HLL has 🥲

[weak meadow]

💪

[warm arch]

it would also help a lot if you would finally remove the objects that are stuck in other objects on all the maps, e.g. fences, sandbags, boxes, etc. that just keep going in sand walls due to hedge walking, or in hay bales because you just put one object over the other when revising maps. these places go into the hundreds and if you consider the amount of tris that something like this saves again, it would be worth some work.

[green trellis]

What even is that nonsense when will they update to unity 5

[wanton mesa]

Unity 5 🤭
I cant remember if theyve said anything about it but i would imagine updating to unreal 5 would be more of a hassle than its worth

[coral shadow]

long term/never, it seems

[vast anvil]

Is this now offically the longest running thread? can this thread please get an award

[crude wharf]

I think you mean Unreal 5

[covert rose]

if anyone owns a server or access to admin cam, you should look in, out, and under the map sometime. Its crazy how many random assets they have, that aren't even viewable for a player

[weak meadow]

🤨

[warm arch]

and it all costs performance it is frightening how slopy some things are

[raven fable]

UE5, as in Unreal Engine 5.2 and up.

[icy ice]

I cant imagine how slopy things are done graphics wise in this game wonder its not dead

[placid crow]

Bump

[hidden estuary]

They mentioned this on today's report. It'd have been better if they gave a bit more details or specific examples of LODs they'll be working on, IE some of those "worst offenders" they are planning on tackling, but it's a start I suppose

[willow cedar]

Worst offenders imo should be the maps with the lowest performance ej Carentan/Stalingrad. It would be pretty amazing if they managed to get consistent fps between all the maps

[empty swan]

Honestly, I never felt like Stalingrad had bad looking LODs. Don't play it often though so may not have noticed as much.

[cosmic tiger]

it isnt that they look bad, it's that they PREFORM bad

They have an OOB rendered the entirety of the map, and it is a high poly OOB too

[wicked pumice]

I had some weird textures on Stalingrad the other day, some buildings at 100 meters were super low res and the buildings at 200 meters would be really high res. No idea what caused it or why it does that tbh

[earnest terrace]

also walls just not rendering at 200m. big deal for tanks, if you're trying to shoot up or down the hill at midpoint there's a TON of invisible walls everywhere

[warm arch]

and it's so ridiculous that the walls don't rendenr but everything else does the plants on and around the walls and all the opponents it's like a built in wallhack if it wasn't too embarrassing it would just be hilarious.

[tender gale]

[vague pendant]

[spark rivet]

[proud remnant]

Oh lol.. I didnt realize danny talked in this thread

[hard nacelle]

hey fellas, quickly reviving this topic to ask how's the next patch optimization doing, so far I've been quite excited for the direction the game is taking, since that presentation and trailer I thought the game was bound to fail but if everything keeps the same pace as now, it should come back and strong, nowadays I don't have much time to play at all so I'd like to ask for whoever is able to play

[wind charm]

I have zero knowledge on this subject. But I will say that HLL looks fantastic (mostly) and while I fully support optimization, I'd hate to see the game start to look like crap if all the assets got reworked to save on triangles or whatever.

[hard nacelle]

sacrificing quality is definitively not necessary, at least, not for those who can afford it, which is the whole point of having a graphical settings, even then there is still a lot of that performance juice to extract before having to resort to quality sacrifices

[spice cobalt]

There's a load of places I have found by using admin cam that just have useless assets that you can't see unless you're in admin cam - for example behind many of the locked house models in Carentan there are just loads of shed and wall models that are completely supurflous to the player experience as it is literally impossible to see them unless you're in admin cam. Seems like an easy way to cull the number of assets in an under performing map to me.

[wind charm]

Yea stuff like that is low hanging fruit. Axe it ASAP

[earnest terrace]

the alamein hangars in particular are also just ridiculous, there's no reason to individually model every bolt and bevel, you could use a normal map to achieve exactly the same result and save on A LOT of unnecessary rendering

[turbid skiff]

still no response

[vast anvil]

any comments on their recent 'performance improvements'? like removing tessellation from some of the roads entirely? Or how about that plan to mod post scriptum?

[split shard]

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-gordon-ramsey-stress-gif-14291751

[craggy jacinth]

What is happening to this game man 🧍‍♂️

[wanton mesa]

very little honestly

[violet hatch]

For this kind of sh*t tier optimization of assets you can thank BM. This specific thing has nothing to do with T17.

[craggy jacinth]

Their first own map runs significantly worse than all another maps. What are you taking about

[surreal wedge]

@craggy jacinth check your hardware. Mortain is running with lots of FPS compared to any other map

[violet hatch]

You posted your initial comment in the wrong thread then because this one is about Blackmatter's atrocious optimization.
60k triangle rubble piles inclusive.

[icy ice]

Tbh I haven't followed the updates in the last few months but my fps went from 100 to 180 so they're doing something i7 13700k with 4070 btw at 1440

[vast anvil]

A friend of mine is having huge frame drops on Mortain only, making it unplayable for him, he has a 3 year old good gaming pc playing on 1080p, while i have a 11 year old system playing on 1440p. For me Mortain runs pretty stable(between 50 and 60 fps with most settings on max), I get just some regular frame drops (down to 35 fps) in certain areas. I forgot which card he has, I know its Nvidia, and i got the amd rx 5700. Does anyone know what causes this specifically and how to fix it?

[craggy jacinth]

Bro, you can littleraly benchmark for yourself and see. Not only is it factually running worse, it also looks the worst. I think the new devs really are better overall. But their content is not fleshed out at all.

[turbid skiff]

just make new models

[vague pendant]

I think foliage is the real killer because usually my frame lingers around 100 to 120 at any other map but Mortain. By tweaking a couple potentially costly features like the shadows and post process effects and ofc the foliage I was able enjoy a relative stable 50 to 60 frame at 3460*1440 resolution.

[craggy jacinth]

[shrewd moon]

[limpid jacinth]

However we are in the year 2025 and still having these performance issues... :/

[dry tide]

Devs are too busy adding every map and faction possible. No time to actually optimize the core game, ofc