mess-hall

[echo karma]

Guys guess what day it is?

[gentle lintel]

world series game 6

day

[echo karma]

Login day. 3pm

[slate canopy]

Who is in the lead?

[gentle lintel]

BLUE JAYS BBY

https://tenor.com/view/flamingo-albert-gif-5132144481751800826

[echo karma]

Lol look at arc discord. There rolling back a horrible change. What do ya know. Impossible huh

[grizzled kiln]

Fake news ! Can't be done.

[broken shoal]

Arc r for nerds

[echo karma]

Poe today

[glossy echo]

The yellow buildings in Kursk and stalingrad is really good, if you have a g43 it's a really good position

The ones that look like a normal house but no staircase and you have to mantle to the top

[azure ether]

Horse

[worthy charm]

SPAs mentioned

[azure ether]

Horse mentioned

[fluid pawn]

It's happened Kedo https://discordapp.com/channels/316459644476456962/322320603350827010/1433870907465793588

[azure ether]

Horse

[empty steppe]

Kedo died, you’ll have to find his alt

[quiet grail]

FG42 bipod when

[silk igloo]

why instagram though

[wind vine]

Self-Propelled Artillery?????????????

[knotty aspen]

@fluid pawn any news about consoles PTE?

[quiet grail]

It says steam only

[glossy echo]

I saw that the moment I wrote the message

[knotty aspen]

It does in this announcement, but previously this year it was mentioned on a dev talk that this was cooking and it wasn't very difficult

Xbox already has a testing program for games and it was used for the server browser introduction

[finite berry]

Sherman 105, nothing as new as they claim it to be, unfortunately

[broken shoal]

Smolenks is around the corner. Shouldnt the pte be out already?

[wind vine]

How do you know it will the sherman ?

[silk igloo]

They only showed a pic of a sherman and we assumed it to be sherman 105, right?

[finite berry]

It's both been leaked and later confirmed iirc

[finite berry]

Oh, then it was just that?

My bad then, I thought it had been confirmed to be a 105

[fluid pawn]

Not yet I'm afraid

[wind vine]

Ben come on man, tell us what vehicle that is

[fluid pawn]

Hopefully soon 🙏

[silk igloo]

Iirc it wasnt confirmed at all. Ben even said that it was just a picture they gave him, right?

[fluid pawn]

yessirrrr

[fluid pawn]

We've not confirmed yet what will be added

[finite berry]

Copy that

[empty steppe]

@wind vine luv your vids 😘

[wind vine]

Thanks man! Much appreciated!

[quiet grail]

Any news on bar/fg42 bipods?

[fluid pawn]

I'll find out next week 🫡

[silk igloo]

can you at least say if they will be asymmetric?

[fluid pawn]

I'll try get that detail added into the blog post on Monday 🫡

[silk igloo]

it'd be a way to balance the factions a bit. since germans with 2 heavies is strong, an open topped SPA vulnerable to even AT-rifles would even out a match if soviet SPA was an enclosed, heavily armored SU-152 or such

[cyan saddle]

BAR has had a bipod added in U17 I believe, though only for the machine gunner role (intentionally). FG42 remains a mistery.

[glossy echo]

You are one of the channels I actually stay for the whole video, really nice

[wind vine]

Appreciate it a ton! They really take me a while to make but I see that it is worth it!

[quiet grail]

It’s definitely not added yet, I haven’t played a bit but last I heard they were confirmed working on both and said it’s coming hopefully by end of year iirc. There was a leaked image of the bar mounted but that’s it

And they said in a dev log it would only be for MG class

[fluid pawn]

Goated videos can't lie 🐐

[cyan saddle]

Hm you're right

[fluid pawn]

I'm heading off for the weekend now folks, however will be back Monday to share more info on what's to come 🫡

[wind vine]

Aaaaaaah stop lying Ben you only heard about my channel now lol

[fluid pawn]

https://tenor.com/view/will-ferrell-elf-buddy-the-elf-throne-of-lies-christmas-gif-3580667

[turbid plaza]

In the year 2025, why cant PTEs also involves consoles?

[cyan saddle]

yeah microsoft & sony, why cant it?

[oak current]

Yeeah!

[grizzled kiln]

https://tenor.com/view/fuark-super-pc-gaming-meme-gif-7974372

PCMR ❤️

[silk igloo]

the PTE already confuses many people on PC thinking that it's the actual game

[grizzled kiln]

That's just a test to see if you're smart enough to pick the correct game. If not consider COD instead jk 😄

[silk igloo]

maybe they should make the PTE a free installation (that is, no need to buy the game to try it) on both. free marketing and lots of clueless people playing the PTE thinking it's a F2P title

[fringe hollow]

Is everyone happy about the PTE or did we find even more reasons to moan?

[turbid plaza]

Im a simple man idk how it all works im jw why its exclusive to steam

[fringe hollow]

steam usually lets game devs push almost any update. They need permission from the other platforms for any update. I assume this also applies to PTEs

[fluid pawn]

^ this basically yeah

[lusty mantle]

What’s the best way to troll on this game

[turbid plaza]

Ahh word

[grizzled kiln]

that might work actually. But prob too much time between the PTEs

[turbid plaza]

Please baby jesus just let the update work when it drops.

[past vortex]

horse-drawn SPAs

[nova pivot]

Yes

Horse finally

[broken shoal]

the hotfix is 13 gb. what in the flying hell

(late to the party)

[past vortex]

SPA stands for stallion powered artillery

[fading gale]

how getting burned by a flamethrower is an achivement?
Who ever thought of that is an idiot

[azure heath]

Not many people have it, so it's rare to get killed by it tbf

[analog apex]

Hi guys, I had been absent for 8 days due some important real life stuff and I see there were several posts about the hotfixes. So my question is... how is HLL doing tech-wise in relation to U18 problems? Any quick sum-up anybody 🙂 ? Were the "Fatal error!" crashes and server disconnects rly fixed?

and like a million pings and DMs wtf... it were just 8 days 😄 . But wow... -400 (Steam) players when looking at HLL Steam chart... 😬

[obtuse dragon]

First you would have to Let the guy get close, prepare the gun and then Wait for the flames to hit you (which Is like 0.3-0.6 secs depending on the distance)

[fading gale]

why would that be an achievement? I fail to see how is that an accomplishment?

[past vortex]

yea we seem to be back to the bad state before + flipping tanks with smokes :}

[analog apex]

😫

[finite berry]

You could say the tank got - smoked 😏

[worthy charm]

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

noooooooooooo

[past vortex]

(and noob commanders wasting all munitions on the now useless arty strikes:)

[analog apex]

and I see on the public C-rcons for next map still listed as "unknown Warfare", I guess they didn't fix or help the C-rcon devs at all :/

[worthy charm]

But yes its "better" nnow

at least we get a U19 PTE

[past vortex]

i cant wait to find you on 106, ping me :}

[analog apex]

yeah, just reading U19 is getting delayed... makes sense

[worthy charm]

Its better like this

Maybe even do a patch 4 for performance

-# im living on copium

[analog apex]

I doubt they will ever touch that... they haven't for so long (ever? 😄 ). I wish they removed the stuttering.

[past vortex]

i think the perf got a bit worse, they probably only "fixed"it as much as needed

[worthy charm]

https://tenor.com/view/comedy-police-the-joke-is-too-funny-the-jokes-too-funny-vine-video-vine-meme-gif-26033212

[analog apex]

those are bad news then... what can be even worse? I wonder

I mean... even the pre-U18 stuttering alone is super bad

[past vortex]

i have been only playing medic since the flip feature

[worthy charm]

Heresy

Mods smite this guy

[past vortex]

i hope they fix that in U19 so it works on all vehicles

[silk igloo]

bring the PTE stuart back

[analog apex]

I guess still no any real reason to play HLL now then... I will try this weekend, but I am leaving at the start of next week for another week+ away, so will be out of touch even more. Will be fully back roughly probably by the time when U19 gets out. I don't even want to read all the stuff, too much of it, no time.

Thanks for summing the things up guys 🙂 .

[past vortex]

it fels like some good players didnt come back

[worthy charm]

Not like much happend

[past vortex]

ofc thats just a feeling

[analog apex]

I checked the Steam chart playerCounts and ... -400 in the last 30 days. Quite a deal.

[silk igloo]

i played a bunch of bf6 and it's completely dead. when measured with how much people talk

[analog apex]

well... it's BF after all

[past vortex]

it looks like it get incredibly boring after a few matches

[analog apex]

BF brings nothing new ever. The last few ones were always just a reskin of the previous BF game.

gets boring fast

but that's just my feeling based on external observation, I never rly played it myself 😏

[silk igloo]

I kind of get the feeling too. Having played basically the same game on the 360, normal games just dont interest that much. In HLL though, you do meet all kinds of interesting people

like that one old guy i met in a tank who mentioned how his friend in the 80s had a real sherman

that's a reason to play hll

[thin lotus]

teleports behind your reason

[analog apex]

But if the devs won't fix the bad stuff fast, 2026 may be the final year. We can chew through the in-game logic/UI bugs... but crashing, disconnectings and even worse performance are stuffs that will scare the players away always.

Noticing the crash report in #1430214896259436665 even after the latest hotfix... bad sign.

[silk igloo]

Maybe it'd be better if HLL suffered a horrible and sudden death, and vietnam took its place

[thin lotus]

splitting an already small playerbase between two games, one being ue4

[silk igloo]

With HLL gone, there's room for another 5 guys to make another WW2 game, eh

[analog apex]

I would have nothing MP to play then. But then again, while there is HLL in the broken state still alive, it discourages other possible WWII MP games from developing.

So a sudden death would be probably for the better. I don't think that will happen though.

[analog apex]

aaaah, you already wrote it... yep I think the same

[silk igloo]

Well, if T17 doesnt have backups to do a rollback, all it takes is one disaster or sabotage to end it all

[finite berry]

This game is too popular to have a sudden death

[analog apex]

yeah

but who knows... frequent crashes/disconnects and performance have their red lines too for the people

[silk igloo]

you guys know the origins of the word sabotage?

[finite berry]

Yes

[analog apex]

nope

[finite berry]

I think it's from shoemakers who threw their wooden shoes into the new machines capable of producing shoes faster and more efficiently because they feared they'd lose their jobs to those machines

It comes from the French word sabot which means wooden shoe, I think

[silk igloo]

any machine, i read. one shoe from a disgruntled worker is all it took. and t17 doesnt sound like a nice workplace

[finite berry]

Yep, just checked, pretty much any machine

[finite berry]

Now that's far-fetched cope

[analog apex]

Allright, thx for the chat guys 🙂 , I myself gtg., rly tired, this was a rly hard week work-wise, the next 2 ones will be the same as well. Will check in here sporadically later... maybe... but then again maybe not 🥶 . Too much of a bigger real life stuff going on now for me too.

[silk igloo]

nu-uh, this discord is more important

[silk igloo]

i imagine funny things, im fine either way

[worthy charm]

After yesterday im copium addicted

didnt help sadly

:}

[thin lotus]

HLL has the worst sounding third person Kar98 SFX I've heard of any game that has it.
If you're gonna have it objectively be the worst rifle in the game, at least make it sound good

[meager timber]

Game is dead

[slate canopy]

4k in game. Yup, so dead.

[mellow knoll]

L take fr.

[gentle lintel]

Everyone’s playing squad

[past vortex]

*44

[meager timber]

Last time the player count was this low was in September 2020

[finite berry]

So?

[gray lagoon]

No, it was september of 2022

[meager timber]

10k players according to steamcharts

[gray lagoon]

I see 7923 players in between 23 and 24

[meager timber]

Oh you were almost right. It's September 2021 actually

For some reason it doesn't show it correctly in the timeline

[meager timber]

It's not looking good bruh

[finite berry]

And what do you fear, exactly?

[covert elbow]

I fear the dark

And horses

[gray lagoon]

Im a little worried, but the numbers will pick up during the next update. Steam winter sale will help as well

[meager timber]

Well the game has been bleeding players since January. Almost every month -10% players.

[slate canopy]

You're afraid of horses? 🤔

[gray lagoon]

since june it leveled out a bit

[covert elbow]

Yes

[finite berry]

Again, so? Playerbase is still active and stable

[meager timber]

You don't see a problem losing 1/10 of the playerbase every month?

[finite berry]

Nope because, like it's been pointed out already, it leveled out again

And I'm also not worried because this game is old and is soon getting a follow-up title

So nothing of this comes unexpectedly

[slate canopy]

I mean "peak" was January... becuase it was free for a week on Epic Game Store.

[meager timber]

https://steamcharts.com/app/686810#All

I'm not pulling these stats out my a s s, you can check for yourself. in June there was a 3 % increase and since then the drop has been 13 %

[finite berry]

That too, yep

[finite berry]

That's wonderful, but doesn't contradict my previous statements

[meager timber]

Your statement was that the playerbase is stable... But okay

[gray lagoon]

in the past especially june of 2023 the player counts have been low

[finite berry]

Stable as in on a level where you don't have to worry about finding populated servers

Poor choice of words on my part, admittedly

[meager timber]

Yeah well imo something needs to be done. You can't just dig your head in the sand and say that everything is fine. Lowest playercount in 4 years

[past vortex]

its the fear to end up lie s44

[winter dune]

<@&365680483276816385> can we not realease a brand new update when u18 still has systemic issues? Let's get the game fixed and other bugs that have been there ages before a new map and vehicle type?

[finite berry]

Understandable, but unjustified. HLL is way too popular and arcadey for that

[past vortex]

this is polarbears fault, clearly :D

and abu too

[worthy charm]

Ban me for doing a bad job

[past vortex]

and willes

[finite berry]

Mods can't do anything about it lmfao

[slate canopy]

We have spots for feedback in #1432770693086445640 and #1425052819311955969 . We are not developers, just a moderators of the discord.

[finite berry]

https://tenor.com/view/correct-plankton-gif-14118231

[slate canopy]

I work in a laboratory full time

[cyan saddle]

U19 is already being delayed and a third patch for U18 is currently in the works also. This PTE is just to gather some feedback on what's to come in U19.

[worthy charm]

This could have been your time for positive encouragement.

[winter dune]

Tag a developer then - or do they have their head in sand?

[slate canopy]

Orrr just leave feedback where feedback can go.

[worthy charm]

Please dont tag staff.

[slate canopy]

I'm not gonna bother a dev. It's the weekend.

[worthy charm]

:}

[finite berry]

Nah. Learn through suffering :)

[past vortex]

put the feedback on the pile

[worthy charm]

Not like we could even bother a dev

[finite berry]

Right, are there even devs here? lol

[worthy charm]

We just do what everyone does, cry and run to ben

[cyan saddle]

Hidden amongst the people 🕵️

[finite berry]

Plot twist, I'm a dev

[winter dune]

Never ending pile

[past vortex]

i think drew is secretly a dev

[worthy charm]

https://tenor.com/view/transformers-starscream-he-cant-be-trusted-dont-trust-him-the-transformers-gif-17989099747954498895

[winter dune]

After u18 the devs are long gone

[slate canopy]

Nope, they're still around, doing things.

[past vortex]

"things"

[slate canopy]

I don't work in video games. I dunno what each one is doing 😛

[past vortex]

no one here has any idea about the devs i guess

are there even dedicated devs, how many, etc

studios nowadays tend to rotate devs between multiple projects

[covert elbow]

Ben confirmed this is whats happening

They have like 80 devs who work on both HLL and HLL:V at the same time

[obtuse dragon]

Happy halloween!!!1!1!!

[past vortex]

and worms, and the other crazy games :}

[covert elbow]

True

[gentle lintel]

https://tenor.com/view/solitaire-solitaire-ending-solitaire-end-ending-bounce-gif-12792838

[past vortex]

btw i had no kids ring the bell this year, as it should be

[slate canopy]

Neither did I.... (We put a bowl out lol)

[finite berry]

man, that winning screen was so peak

[past vortex]

i expect them to not ring when there are no decorations

[slate canopy]

Totally fair.

Light on is the 'ring the bell/you can get candy here' indication.

[past vortex]

yea

btw its an holiday in germany but its not halloween

its reformation day

[nova oracle]

https://tenor.com/view/ww2-cannon-shoot-gif-16835287

In before the complainers say that SPA is too OP and needs nerfing

[worthy charm]

https://tenor.com/view/im-gonna-do-it-anyway-bricky-nothings-stopping-me-i-will-do-it-regardless-it-shall-happen-gif-19860144

[past vortex]

i got a smoke grenade next to my door

gonna flip your bmw if you do

[covert elbow]

Bricky mentioned

[crude gorge]

is HLL ok? haven't been able to play for a while

it's bugged for me but it's up to date patchwise

[slate canopy]

Bugged how?

[crude gorge]

it's up to date but doesn't show populated lobbies. I've verified game license, turned off filters and restarted the game to troubleshoot.. to no avail.

[modern pebble]

Ya mine does the same thing it says all the servers are empty

[slate canopy]

Clear download cache?

[fading gale]

any dev on right now

to show him a bug?

I walk into area and from 120 fps goes to 29, as if limited to 29 fps

the 3rd time I walk there, no more 29 fps limit

cant post screenshot

[nova oracle]

Hell let loose is in her legal age

She’s drinking and she’s all over the place

Hell let loose is that one fat ugly chick who you never thought would amount, then years later she’s shed the weight and become a goth

[worldly mountain]

Steamcharts are a good way to see a certain trend. However, what is not listed there are EPIC or Xbox (PC) players.

There is an unknown number that no one can really see. I was on a server one day where a good 80% of the players were from these platforms.

[peak knot]

This tracks them on ~240 servers including some console servers. It counts matches played per player, so ignores bots and such but also isn't the same distinct player count as Steam charts https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1317135960588156978/1434098846526603284/image.png?ex=69071821&is=6905c6a1&hm=b6c22abd91b6e43d4f99f0a9ef2e2f7d9d22c83ccd9a394f754d02881da2f878

[meager timber]

Is that something you made?

[worldly mountain]

Where do the statistics come from?

The other question is how many of these servers are console servers?

[nova oracle]

The reason for the spike is free weekend and it’s on sale

Thank the Lord for battlefield 6, they all left

Now only real hell let loose players remain

Those of us too stubborn to go and those of us who are stupid enough to stay

I know someone who moved from PC hell let loose to console because and I quote “it stinks” unquote

There’s at least 1 clan member who’s suspicious probably into buying his weed off the deep web, he’s got that creepy vibe, you just can’t place your finger on it, every clan has that guy and he’s usually the hacker

Always runs AT even in comp and nothing else

He’s all software and no skill, a pig wearing makeup in other words

[peak knot]

crcon data

[nova oracle]

Cocaine Data

Say it how it is

[worldly mountain]

Nice drifted from player statistics to alleged cheaters. You read about this every day on the Steam forum... and in 95% of cases, it turns out that they are playing on the official servers. Which aren't really moderated.

[nova oracle]

No I’ve experienced this first-hand on clan servers

The precision striked in HQ when we were moving opened my eyes

Sure you could say it was a recon squad though we were getting 40, snared an angle, going down-hill

Also before anyone says it was mines, no it weren’t because we were all watching every inch of the road and you could hear the plane very briefly

[worldly mountain]

I would like to say something else about cheaters. If you take a quick look around the comp scene, you will quickly find one or two people who have already been banned from several games or even received VAC bans. The comp organizers allow a known cheater to participate. You can read all about it in the rules.

Otherwise, I don't think we need to talk about the fact that HLL's anti-cheat isn't really the best, when there are even providers who advertise that their cheats haven't been detected since their release.

[nova oracle]

That’s just the nature of competition, people one up each other, scum bag tactics? Brass knuckles in boxing gloves

[worldly mountain]

It's the same issue as with the Nvidia filters, which are still usable today even though the developers have taken measures against them.

[nova oracle]

Tbf you don’t even need software, unfortunately you can white chat with someone on the enemy team

They gotta get rid of white chat all-together

[nova oracle]

Is Kronos still the biggest cheat system?

I’ll leave this clan anonymous though the guy I was talking about is very much real, he’s always AT and liked to joke about how he’s “switched on Kronos” I assumed he was using reverse psychology and was actually cheating and his jokes were coming out as sub conscious ticks

[meager timber]

naah that would be dll injections

[nova oracle]

Speaking of injections, a work colleague of mine had his shots for covid and the flu and he looks like a waking corpse

If I die it’ll be because of the hell let comp deep state

Forget are 51, the comp community here goes even deeper

[azure ether]

Horse

Also can we get a part of teufelslied to play when nazi germany wins?

[real parrot]

🐴

[crude gorge]

fuuuuh the uncanny regret

[nova pivot]

Smolensk looks good, I hope we can play it without crashing 😀

[forest sinew]

Is it possible to slamfire the m97 shotgun in the game?

[thorny glade]

is there a yt vid or guide for optimal settings in HLL for spotting enemies?

[nova oracle]

https://youtu.be/55LUDLKyTxk?si=wp9aVqeL_79GQ6js

[nova oracle]

Pray 🙏

[wind shore]

Horse

[glossy echo]

Are you also excited for Smolensk?

[abstract lichen]

uhhh, the HLL wiki says that this game has Firefly, M4A1 and M4A3E2 75 but ive never seen them

also HLL wiki doesn't have the M4A3 75 which i've seen in game and practice range, is it outdated or smthn?

[nova oracle]

Because the Firefly has weaker armour and the Churchill is the better in-game tank

[abstract lichen]

wouldn't firefly have a much better gun and mobility (or is that not the case in this game)

cus irl Firefly was a medium

[nova oracle]

Although any experienced crew will tell you the best in-game tank is the soviets IS-1 / T34

[nova oracle]

A 75 with a British pounder

[abstract lichen]

?

Firefly had 17 Pounder

Churchill 7 had 75mm equal to that of normal Sherman

[nova oracle]

Yeah the 17 pounder was a British gun they fitted to the 75 Sherman

[abstract lichen]

Mainly M4 and M4A4 variants

[nova oracle]

It was the best cannon of the war

[abstract lichen]

along with other modifications such as radio in box out of turret

and no more hull mg

[nova oracle]

I’d argue the best tank of the war was the T-34; mass produced and in the end 50 tanks outbeat 1-5 Tigers

Better to send in 40-50 tanks, lose half and still Destroy the enemy’s 5 heavily armoured tanks

The only two things that you can’t replace is time and manpower

[meager timber]

Game still dead?

[abstract lichen]

hell no, T34 was horrible

[nova oracle]

Is that why the soviets won the war?

Smashed the Heights and cut a bloody path through Berlin?

[abstract lichen]

tanks dont win wars

tanks help but arent the sole reason

[nova oracle]

Destroying the enemy’s resolve

Break their spirit

[abstract lichen]

also Germany is kinda overrated in WW2, they werent that strong

Germany could never beat USSR

[nova oracle]

That was their biggest mistake was invading the Soviet Union

[abstract lichen]

the biggest mistake was starting the war in the first place

[meager timber]

https://tenor.com/view/heart-love-mustache-change-color-gif-17567673

[abstract lichen]

the could never invade the UK cus of the channel

[nova oracle]

They did give them a hell of a kicking, weren’t it like 8 million soviets dead ?

[abstract lichen]

could never beat the USSR cus of its might

and if they prolonged eventually USA joins

[abstract lichen]

mainly cus of poor tactics and logistical issues

USSR had very mid logistics

[nova oracle]

USA only joined because of pearl harbour

[meager timber]

Guys give me something new. All of this is known

[abstract lichen]

tru but Roosevelt was tryna find literally any excuse to join the war, eventually he'd have found a reason

[nova oracle]

It always takes a tragedy to push Americans to pro war

[abstract lichen]

plus Germany always wanted to fight USA eventually

[nova oracle]

Both wars were banker wars

The Bilderberg group

[abstract lichen]

cus Living Space or smthn they wanted world domination

[nova oracle]

German world domination is a myth

[abstract lichen]

a myth they wanted it or a myth they could get it

[nova oracle]

They wanted to reclaim their older lost territories

[abstract lichen]

(UK is not a lost terrirory)

(Operation Sealion and allat)

[nova oracle]

Hitler had nothing but admiration for the English

[abstract lichen]

ye but he still wanted to invade

hence Operation Sealion

but he could never invade cus of the Navy and RAF and the fact they just didnt have the strength

[nova oracle]

Jersey is hardly England

[abstract lichen]

he wanted to invade the actual mainland UK

[nova oracle]

The German barge fleet was just a budget d-day idea

[abstract lichen]

hence why they planned to invade main UK (Operation Sealion)

but cancelled due to realising it wouldnt work

[nova oracle]

If we go back even further, the Germans in the First World War did almost win

Actually they were however far distance from Paris

[abstract lichen]

back to this point, T34 was far from best tank of war

poor reliability, poor crew comfort, poor build quality

gears were very hard to shift through, armour prone to cracking to due heat treating to too high temperatures

sometimes had parts missing when arrived at front line

cramped

[nova oracle]

They were significantly better than the Tiger

[abstract lichen]

i mean, the Tiger had much better crew comfort and was much better to use

[nova oracle]

Purely on the fact of the Tigers fuel consumption

[abstract lichen]

the driver controls were similar to that of a car

it also had good sights, good turret handling

[nova oracle]

The early war Sherman’s were also terrible

[abstract lichen]

ofc it was also unreliable and expensive

[abstract lichen]

not really

[nova oracle]

And if hit at all, they’d explode because of the shell storing

[abstract lichen]

same shell storing as every german tank btw (pz4, tiger and panther all had ammo stored in sponsons, just like early shermans)

i think T34 did also

[nova oracle]

Let’s not even get into French tanks

[abstract lichen]

and late T34 also had ammo in back of turret

imo Sherman was best tank of war.

[nova oracle]

The French were still using horses to get around

[abstract lichen]

very easy to repair, modify, reliable, could use multiple different engines and thus fuel, loved by USSR, good mobility gun and armour, all of which could be easily upgraded

good built quality, crew comfort

[nova oracle]

The soviets didn’t have Sherman’s

[supple chasm]

ADD THE MAUS

[abstract lichen]

Lend Lease

they definitely did

mainly M4A2 cus of the diesel engine

[nova oracle]

Soviet Crew in a Sherman is the best tank setup

[abstract lichen]

Germany also used a few shermans that they captured

[nova oracle]

I’ve seen repainted German Sherman’s

They look good

[abstract lichen]

i've seen photos of Shermans having their engines changed in a field in normandy not far from frontlines

i think one of them was called 'Hurricane' and was an M4

[nova oracle]

Isn’t the last surviving real king tiger in Australia?

[abstract lichen]

think its in France no?

i saw it at Tankfest, appparently they imported it from France

it was driving and everything

[nova oracle]

Was it huge?

[abstract lichen]

very

65 tons of tonk

[nova oracle]

Beautiful beast

[abstract lichen]

they had it go out with Tiger 131

[nova oracle]

I wouldn’t want to fight a tiger

[abstract lichen]

so they had the last running Tiger 1 and last running Tiger 2 on show together

[abstract lichen]

i wouldnt wanna fight any tank

[nova oracle]

I can’t believe the saving private Ryan tiger was a T//34

[abstract lichen]

im armed with a kitchen knife and thats it

[abstract lichen]

the only film with a real Tiger is Fury iirc

they used Tiger 131 in Fury

[nova oracle]

Wow really

[abstract lichen]

ye

[nova oracle]

I thought it looked real

At first I thought it was just another T-34 with plates welded on

Then I saw it

[abstract lichen]

iirc Tiger 131 was abandoned by crew in Tunisia after a 6 Pounder shell ricochet off the gun barrel into the roof jamming the turret drive, at which point they forgot to self destruct it

[nova oracle]

The only thing I dislike about Fury is the Tiger would never have moved if that were real

[abstract lichen]

if you go to Tank Museum you can see the damage it took

[abstract lichen]

• 2 of those 4 Shermans couldve killed it frontally pretty easily

[nova oracle]

That scene makes me laugh

[abstract lichen]

Fury and the M4A1 had 76mm M1 which could pen Tiger pretty easily

the other 2, sure they had 75mm M3 so couldnt do nothing but at 76 bois couldve just killed it

[nova oracle]

I laughed when the 76 was taken out

Only because the scene was ridiculous

[abstract lichen]

iirc M93 APCR shell from 76mm M1 could pen like 240mm of RHA (enough to kill Tiger 2 frontally) but due to short supply of tungsten US crews never had any

[nova oracle]

Hatches open, commanders open

Easy SS sniper kills

[abstract lichen]

M4A1 76W commander gets shot in face by 88

[nova oracle]

Was that his friend?

[abstract lichen]

idk

they were all in same convoy at that time

[pine ember]

Overall the Panther was the best tank of the war

And yes, Germany was totally able to beat the USSR

If they started the offensive in May 1941 and pushed Moscow directly after the Battle of Smolensk

[abstract lichen]

transmission intensifies

[pine ember]

These issues were fixed later... Also remember other tanks of the era had many inital issues, including with the transmission...

[abstract lichen]

iirc German scouts made it to outskirts of Moscow but main army was decently far away

[abstract lichen]

also cost of production

• that doesnt mean issue didnt exist

• ease of modification and repair

[pine ember]

As I said, if you consider a whole month more time and a different approach is was totally possible

[abstract lichen]

also iirc Panther was more cramped than Tiger

[pine ember]

Wasnt decently higher than a Panzer IV...

I see, we have someone here that fell for usual German tank myths

[abstract lichen]

ig but who says capturing moscow beats the USSR, they could just relocate capital like they did with their factories

[pine ember]

Same for your Sherman 😉

[abstract lichen]

name the issue

cus u havent named it yet

[pine ember]

Yea, but it would have broken the back of the Soviets

[abstract lichen]

oh ye also Panther gunner sights were permanently zoomed in

which would make it hard for the gunner to see what the commander sees

imo the Tiger was better than the Panther

[abstract lichen]

ehh, tru

guess we'll never know for sure unless we have a time machine

[pine ember]

Completely outdated against every German tank... Only in Africa they were somewhat effective against the Panzer III. It easily lit, had a high profile, and its only advantage was the high numbers

German tanks were better, both as an individual tank and how they were used if you look at the tactics,...

[abstract lichen]

75mm M3 could easily kill pz4 and stug. it had good armour for time, good survivability, easy of repair, crew comfort, some variants had higher firepower and armour. easy to modify

reliable as well

[pine ember]

Depends how you look on it. The Tigers had a better reputation among the crews, but the Panthers were what was needed more

[abstract lichen]

also could use multiple engines so multiple fuel types

[pine ember]

For 1942 against earlier Panzers

[abstract lichen]

e.g. M4A2 was diesel but M4A3 was gasoline

[abstract lichen]

also tank on tank combat was very rare

most tank combat was against infantry and AT guns

so saying this tank penetrates this tank means little

[abstract lichen]

imo its bc Tiger had better crew comfort, easier to use (intuitive driver controls) and better sights

[pine ember]

It was ok for the time it was introduced, but it was outclassed pretty fast. And considering the Germans developed something like the Panther and Tiger in the same timeframe, the US could do better

[pine ember]

Wont help you if you still fight against a tank

[abstract lichen]

US had the Atlantic as a constraint

[abstract lichen]

in the very small chance

tank on tank combat comparisons dont rly mean much

[pine ember]

Its not only your opinion, its also the opinion of the German crews

[pine ember]

It still matters

[abstract lichen]

yes, so thats why i think tiger is better than panther

[abstract lichen]

not very much

what actually matters in tanks are things like logistics, how easy is it to use, make, repair and modify. stuff like that

[pine ember]

If you look at a strategic level the Tiger was far less needed than the Panther

[abstract lichen]

armour, gun and mobility come secondary to those factors

[pine ember]

Not really

[abstract lichen]

what good is a tank if you cant repair it after it hits a mine

[pine ember]

Those are the first things considered when designing a new tank, even nowadays

[abstract lichen]

or if the crew doesnt know how to use it

[pine ember]

Crews can be trained

Also remember that you cannot really compare US and German tank design

[abstract lichen]

what good is a tank if you dont have the resources to make it

[pine ember]

Germany had less resources so their tanks needed to have a higher survivability

[abstract lichen]

because they are the simplest

but not the most important

[abstract lichen]

tank1 takes 1 week to train crew
tank2 takes a month to train to same level of skill
which is more ideal?

[pine ember]

In the case of Germany the latter... German tank crews were experts with their vehicles

[abstract lichen]

you completely misread the scenario

[pine ember]

And you dont understand the idea behind German tanks and its design

[abstract lichen]

tiger was designed as a breakthrough tank, i understand that pretty well

[pine ember]

So why do you understand that and not my other statements?

[abstract lichen]

ur saying that stuff like logistics dont matter as much as gun and armour

they matter, a lot more

[pine ember]

Where have I said they dont matter?

[abstract lichen]

also if we wanna go into the armour debate the Jumbo had more armour than the Panther

[pine ember]

Yea cool

US tanks still were worse

[abstract lichen]

also M93 shot from 76mm M1 could pen the front of a Tiger 2

[pine ember]

US crews were less trained and less experienced

[abstract lichen]

thats an issue with the training systems, not the tanks

[pine ember]

Their tactics were worse

[abstract lichen]

also germany had 3 years more time in the war

[pine ember]

Crews belong to tanks

[abstract lichen]

idk about that, Germany did lose in the end

[abstract lichen]

other way around

[pine ember]

And thinked about tanks when the US still usedthe FT17

[pine ember]

What else would happen if you fight against three quarters of the world, including countries that have unlimited resources?

[abstract lichen]

how is the use of the FT17 in any way related to the performance of the M4

[abstract lichen]

i call that a tactical error to try engage that conflict

thats like running up to 5 guys in a field with MG42's when u have a M1 Carbine in HLL, a tactical error. you're never winning that

[pine ember]

Germany had officers that considered tank warfare in the interwar years like Lutz and Guderian while the US only had a few light tanks and MG monsters that were in the cavalry (!)

[abstract lichen]

dont see how thats related to if the M4 was good or not

[pine ember]

As I said, its not only about the tanks itself, its about tactics too

[abstract lichen]

your talking about interwar

tactics change between interwar and WW2

[abstract lichen]

also dont see how this is related to your point of the Panther being better than the Sherman

[pine ember]

Yep... And whilst Germany had officers that saw that you cant fight a modern war with tactics from the last one, US was still relying on horses and a few light tanks as their fast troops

[pine ember]

As I said, tactics are far more decisive than the tank itself

[abstract lichen]

dont see how this relates to WW2 at all cus a lot changed since then

cus at the time of WW2, Allies were more powerful

[abstract lichen]

right but the topic isnt tactics

[pine ember]

Yep... US only started developing a real, modern medium tank after they saw what German tanks were able to

[abstract lichen]

this is like talking about best F1 driver and then talking about team strategists

[pine ember]

At what time? In 1940, 1941 it was pretty even

[pine ember]

You have to consider them too

[abstract lichen]

not when we're not talking about it

[pine ember]

You started talking about tanks in WW2, and tactics play a huge role

[abstract lichen]

i mean you gotta understand US priorities in interwar. they werent focuses on military cus they didnt wanna go to another european war

[abstract lichen]

ok then. if german tactics were so good why did they lose?

[pine ember]

Yep, I understand them. Same as you are able to understand German priorities regarding tank design

[abstract lichen]

if german tactics were so good, why couldnt they capture a weakened Britain?

[pine ember]

Its not surprising if you fight the whole world

[abstract lichen]

thats literally a tactical error tryna fight the whole world

proving that their tactics arent allat

[pine ember]

Britain was saved by the sea. Germany was more of a land power

[pine ember]

Strategy =/= Tactics

[past vortex]

*strategic

[abstract lichen]

^ thanks for grammatical correction

[past vortex]

*semantic

[pine ember]

Its not even a grammatical error

[abstract lichen]

more saved by the RAF and Royal Navy

[abstract lichen]

you know what i mean

[pine ember]

No?

[pine ember]

Thats what I meant... If Britain wasnt an island they would have been conquered

[abstract lichen]

ok then, if German tactics were so good, how come even with element of surprise they lost to soviets?

also how did they let the British escape at Dunkirk despite being more powerful than the BEF?

[pine ember]

Orders by the painter who didnt understand anything about warfare and relied on the Luftwaffe, and because he was too deep into ideology

[abstract lichen]

Also Battle of Bulge

[pine ember]

Also please differentiate between tactics fielded by the officers and between decisions of the painter who was not that competent

[abstract lichen]

tryna do the same thing as 4 years ago

[pine ember]

Tbf the idea wasnt that bad

[pine ember]

So what? If it works?

[abstract lichen]

except it didnt and the scenario was vastly different

[pine ember]

Yes?

And now?

[past vortex]

compare to fist fighting:
good tactics: you are really good at knocking guys out etc
bad strategy: you go into a heavy metal club with 100 rockers in there and start shouting insults
:}

[abstract lichen]

they lost

thats what happened after

[pine ember]

By that point Germany already had large issues with fuel. No plan would have worked

[bold gale]

https://tenor.com/view/nozomi-shupogaki-blue-archive-animation-laugh-gif-13498039959985704586

[meager timber]

WW2 TRIVIA TIMEEEE

[abstract lichen]

idk, maybe tryna broker for peace?

[pine ember]

That is a really good comparison

[abstract lichen]

like Japan managed to do

[pine ember]

Wouldnt have worked

[bold gale]

Especially when they builded almost all of their tactics from tanks and motorized infantry

[abstract lichen]

Dunkirk, Germany had upper hand yet BEF still managed to escape

also i love how this has drifted so far from the original point

[abstract lichen]

couldve tried. honestly their best option

[pine ember]

Anyways, WW2 history is too complex just to be like: "Allies had better military because they won the war." I have to go to work now

[past vortex]

thats like your mom shows up to the fist fight and forces you to let them go

[abstract lichen]

Germany didnt 'let the BEF go' they tried to destroy them with Luftwaffe yet failed

[pine ember]

Yep, best solution when you have oil. Its still "meta" to this day to motorize your army

[abstract lichen]

its more like tryna stomp on the other guy in a fist fight

[pine ember]

As I said, wouldnt have worked out

[past vortex]

ok, so mom forces you to throw potatoes instead of fists

[bold gale]

But issue is that they don't have enough oil

[abstract lichen]

mother didnt force you, you chose to

[pine ember]

Not in late 1944

[bold gale]

Probably near 1943 or late 1942 too...

Waiting for moderator to ask us for redeploy to ww2 history

https://tenor.com/view/discord-modi-discord-mod-discord-kitten-gif-26084159

[pine ember]

In 1943 and especially in 1942 it wasnt a big issue. Sure they had less oil than the Soviets (thats why Fall Blau happened), but they still had the Romanian and Hungarian oil fields. The issue in 1942 and 43 was the long distances of the USSR

Also remember Germany planned a short war (which makes sense looking at their position), so thats why they tried capturing Soviet oil fields because the war dragged on and they knew they will eventually get into trouble

[bold gale]

Yes, but they were too much self-confident, remembering problem with winter uniforms in 1941

[pine ember]

Not really, the problem was that they had no real strategy after Moscow and goals of the operations were rather vague

[past vortex]

*offtopic

[pine ember]

And btw, winter uniforms in 1941 were an issue, yes. But the Wehrmacht had decent winter uniforms, they worked well in European winters. Not in a below average temperature Russian 1941/42 winter though

[bold gale]

Imagine guy that:

Channel literally called MESS HALL

"Sorry, sir, but your massages are offtopic and extremely illegal, please stand by for discord judgement."

[pine ember]

Honestly a Fall Blau map for HLL would be good since that really was an important campaign but is undertold except Stalingrad

[bold gale]

I've seen footages of Germans in Moscow outskirts, wearing summer jackets and etc

[abstract lichen]

iirc those are scouts

[pine ember]

Yep, because the coats were warm, but unpractibal for actual fighting

Relief came in 1942 with the Winterwendeanzug, but there were far too few

[slate canopy]

Please redeploy.

Press escape, hit redploy.

We're losing AA Network

[bold gale]

https://tenor.com/view/tft-gif-19400202

[slate canopy]

Not a furry, just love polar bears 🙂

[bold gale]

I can't redeploy, because one agency at my country banned one protocol, that responded for ONLINE GAMING in HLL, so ordering for furry deployment is only option in this situation

[abstract lichen]

is there a way to view all tanks in the game?

[slate canopy]

as in information about them or... ?

[abstract lichen]

nah i just wanna look at them

[nova pivot]

Chad German soldier

[slate canopy]

We've got a good guide, just a moment.

[abstract lichen]

(and/or test drive them)

[slate canopy]

Well, you can go to the practice range.

[abstract lichen]

doesnt have all im pretty sure, practice doesnt show tiger or firefly but im pretty sure those are in the game

[bold gale]

https://tenor.com/view/german-soldier-dancing-gif-6220619198421923093

[slate canopy]

German Practice Range.

Allies practice range

[abstract lichen]

ye, doesnt have tiger

[slate canopy]

Then I guess you'll have to go to an empty server and hop on there to screw around? 🤷‍♀️

[nova oracle]

Better than the Americans

[abstract lichen]

no firefly but pretty sure its in game

[slate canopy]

See above

[past vortex]

just use illegal vpns like kedo

[bold gale]

Of course

[abstract lichen]

all i see is Churchill, Cromwell and Tetrarch?

[slate canopy]

This message

[night lark]

HBT uniforms are not warm at all lol

The greatcoats issued as winter uniforms were pretty warm but non of the wool was windproof and most of it didnt have liners

My experience from wearing a couple real and repro stuff is layers and long jons

[night lark]

German tactics werent as good as anyone elses (they lost lol) but German Intelligence really hampered the war effort.

Two examples to illustrate this; The germans underestimate the number of reserves and how quickly the USSR could mobilise them. They under estimated the standing USSR Red Army by about half.

The second example of intelligence failure was that the Luftwaffe didnt know about Fighter Command, Chain Home, Number of RAF planes, Number of Pilots, Location of most of the nexus control centres, the industrial capacity the UK had.

Germany wasnt actually very good at understanding its opponents because generally they arrogantly assumed everyone would fight like they did.

They didnt have a strategic bomber force because they just couldn’t conceive of the Luftwaffe not being just a force multiplier of the Heer

[abstract lichen]

i know, but some guy was acting like Germany had superior tactics to everyone else

[night lark]

Thats going to ruffle some internet historians but its true. German intelligence serves were awful

[abstract lichen]

i was just pointing out some times that they lost due to poor tactics

[night lark]

Yeah they werent. Blitzkrieg only worked when it was attacking un mobilised or ill prepared opponents.

[abstract lichen]

idk what they other guy was tryna prove cus he made 0 points for both his arguments

[night lark]

Most of the fighting the germans actually did on the tactical level and actually the strategic level was what everyone else would do, which is create culdrons and local encirclements.

[night lark]

This was in no small part to the mixed French and British Rearguard putting up a tenacious fight. And the perseverance of the Royal Navy and RAF for covering and evacuating.

[night lark]

Oh lol no. There are so many reasons why this just isnt true:

Over gunned
Unreliable
Expensive to manufacture even in ideal conditions and poorly built with Germanys ravaged war time industry
Difficult maintain and service
Far too heavy

[abstract lichen]

• gunner sights perma zoomed in by 2.5x iirc

[night lark]

Even the derivatives were so hard to convert because german engineering just wasnt that good ironically.

Like im sorry but you dont get to be the best tank of the war while needing a full overhaul at a field depot every 100km

[past vortex]

i mean, "best of" is relative
when the US doesnt even try to make a competitive tank and the russians dont expect a tank to last very long its kinda easy

[night lark]

The US prioritised easy maintenance and build ability. Literally no point having 1000 glass canon tanks when your enemy can absorb thousands of knocked out tanks in a logistics train that spanned half a plannet

And the 75mm gun on the Western Allied medium tanks would still knock out german tanks pretty handily most of the time

[past vortex]

US didnt need good tanks because germany didnt have enough anymore
if they had been up against the east front stuff they would have had to build a real one

[night lark]

I dont believe that for a second. The 75mm in the M4E3 could take on T34/85s pretty well too

[past vortex]

i meant the kind of tank armies germany fielded in the east

[night lark]

Im not really sure what you mean tbh

German tank armies werent a thing. They biggest armour organisation was a devision

[past vortex]

the US didnt have to go against massed armor like the russians did

[night lark]

Ah okay. Yeah they didnt, but i think the sherman and honestly the rest of the western allies would have been able to content with the soviets pretty well

Imo anyway

[past vortex]

maybe

[finite berry]

Strength of the Red Army is extremely overrated imo anyway

[night lark]

like half the fuel the USSR was using was from texas and half the USSR field ration packs were main in North American factories so like good luck with that Stalin

Like you cant say the Red Army the germans faced would be the Red Army the western allies could have faced because of all the lend lease

[finite berry]

Without Lend-Lease, the USSR would have lost against Germany. Simple as that.

[pine ember]

This

[wintry thistle]

Over gunned? The Panthers cannon was able pierce any tank its enemies threw at them.
How is that a bad thing?
Unreliable?
Panther reliability reached amounts equal to other German tanks of the time

[pine ember]

Germany had less resources than the US, so they had to build better tanks

[pine ember]

They were. Research 1. Panzerarmee eg

[rough kelp]

yes and germany was using alot of foreign factories so they couldn't build up the proper logistics for proper mass production

[pine ember]

Yes, only in 1944 they were "strong" (they still had massive issues until the end of the war and beyond)

[wintry thistle]

The final drive trains were the worst part. But we’re completey capable of normal operations

[pine ember]

Which made sense since Germany is not as big or rich in resources like the US

[wintry thistle]

I actually heard of Jagdpanther crews fixing the issue with the final drives

[pine ember]

So people generalizing and saying "German tanks bad, allied tanks good" are false

Germany had a different approach to tanks

[wintry thistle]

Even if its soft factors are beaten by the Sherman, which in some regards I’d say they were.
The extreme advantage of the hard factors can’t be forgotten

It’s frontal armor and gun was superior to any medium tank of the era

[night lark]

Other german tanks are not a metric for reliability

[night lark]

They didnt build better tanks

[wintry thistle]

German tanks weren’t breaking down because they were designed poorly. They were breaking down due to extreme supply/war demands coupled by the vehicle not being perfect like any machine of war

If German tanks were truly unreliable they wouldn’t be able to cope with the extremes they faced

[night lark]

They didnt cope with the extremes the faced though. Interleaved road wheels trapped ice, mud, and slow far more than bogey or christie suspensions

And they were heavy, heavy tanks dont work in mud and broken up roads

[wintry thistle]

So how did these tanks even fight if all of them were stuck?

[abstract lichen]

cons list for panther:
transmission issues
bit cramped (especially turret)
gunner sights permanently 2.5x zoomed in, hard to see
costly and hard to produce
heavy (so hard to recover)
weak side armour vulnerable to AT rifles
costly and difficult to maintain and repair

[abstract lichen]

it was a heavy, not a medium

and if you rly wanna play WT designations, the M26 had better armour

[wintry thistle]

It was a medium tank
It was designed and used as a medium

[abstract lichen]

(even tho both are heavy tanks)

[wintry thistle]

It’s weight is not the deciding factor in its class

[abstract lichen]

ok fine, its a medium. M26 has better armour

[wintry thistle]

Ok sure. A tank that has less than 100 active chassis in active use

[abstract lichen]

also M93 shot from the 76mm M1 could penetrate roughly 240mm of RHA

i think thats more than the panther

[abstract lichen]

numbers is literally one of the cons of the panther

[wintry thistle]

The Panther excelled at mass production

[abstract lichen]

6000 made

[wintry thistle]

Yes from summer 1943 to the end of the war

That’s a crazy number

Given the state of Germany

[abstract lichen]

i mean the sherman had only 1 more year and had 49k made

with variants that had greater armour and firepower to the panther

[wintry thistle]

Do you realize the difference between America and Germany

Germany was getting bombed during all of this and with a smaller industry

Yet still managed to pump out 6,000 tanks of a new design in 2 years

[abstract lichen]

i mean whatever the reasoning is, it doesnt change the 42k difference in numbers

[wintry thistle]

So if the Germans used the Sherman’s they could have made 50k of them?

[abstract lichen]

nah

but they couldve made a lot more than 6k

[wintry thistle]

No they couldn’t have

The Sherman wasn’t some magically tank

I don’t think you realize the scale of American industry

[abstract lichen]

if we ignore the fact that they dont have access to the engine or gun or sights

and assume they have those

[wintry thistle]

America had the largest industry on earth

Unlimited resources

And no threat to its industry

[abstract lichen]

1 Panther cost 117,100 RM to produce

[wintry thistle]

Germany had the 2nd largest economy in Europe, limited resources and a industry that was harassed since 1943

[abstract lichen]

now hold on and let me do maths to figure out how much that is in normal currency

1 Sherman cost 33000 in 1942 $

hold on, lemme do conversions

hold on panther was actually 170000 RM if you want it with armament and radios

ok 1 USD in 1942 was 5RM

maybe

[finite berry]

Yes, with a significantly larger industry that was not getting bombed behind it

[abstract lichen]

im getting 2 different numbers here, 2.5 and 5

[finite berry]

Like, duh

[abstract lichen]

why tf is it so hard to figure out how much RM is worth

ok official rate set by government was 1 USD = 2.5RM

so 1 Panther tank costed 68000 USD 1942 to produce

[abstract lichen]

ye ok so 1 Sherman was $33,000 in 1942. 1 Panther was $68,000 in 1942

(ignoring that panther entered service a year later, the conversion rate for 1942 and 1943 prolly same)

[wintry thistle]

Twice the cost isn’t much

The main reason the Sherman was built in large numbers, was because it was America building it

America had the largest industry on earth and state of the line quality mass production

[abstract lichen]

difference in cost for 1 unit= 35000 USD 1942 = $700,000 rounded

[wintry thistle]

The Americans could have built the Panther and still pushed those numbers to 50k

[abstract lichen]

it is lol

[wintry thistle]

Twice the cost for a tank that is more or less superior

[abstract lichen]

thats like saying the SVJ isnt that much more than base Aventador or upped huracan

[abstract lichen]

not superior but ok

[wintry thistle]

The extra 30,000 bucks weren’t holding the Germans back from building thousands of tanks

What was holding them back was that they couldn’t

[abstract lichen]

(30,000 bucks in 1942 dollars)(thats $700,000 today)

[wintry thistle]

They didn’t have the resources for it

[abstract lichen]

(per unit)

[wintry thistle]

Germany had a fuel problem

Add a couple thousand more tanks, that’s a couple thousand more tanks you need to supply

[abstract lichen]

guess which tank could use a multitude of engines and so a multitude of fuel types?

yes, its the Sherman

[wintry thistle]

Yeah cause the Germans just had fuel laying around they couldn’t use

[abstract lichen]

i mean the sherman was also more fuel efficient

less weight and all

[wintry thistle]

I hate to break it to you but the Sherman wasn’t fixing Germanys fuel problem

[abstract lichen]

like 13 ton difference in weight

[abstract lichen]

nothing would, but it would consume less fuel

[wintry thistle]

So it doesn’t matter

[abstract lichen]

its like a C7 corvette vs a prius

and you only have like 5 gallons of fuel

[wintry thistle]

It doesn’t fit Germanys situation

[abstract lichen]

the prius is gonna get you further

[abstract lichen]

there were sherman variants with better armour, firepower and mobility. so idk what metric it was superior by

[wintry thistle]

Like what?

[abstract lichen]

shermans armed with 17 pounder or 76mm M1 with M93 shot

had better firepower

any sherman with the Ford GAA Gasoline engine had far better mobility

and the jumbo's (both 75 and 76) had better armour

[wintry thistle]

17 pounder was equal to the KWK42, the KWK42 with HVAP was better

[wintry thistle]

Less than 209 jumbos made

And has mobility issues

[abstract lichen]

production numbers dont seem to matter to you unless it favours you

[abstract lichen]

so did panther so equal in that regard

[wintry thistle]

Mobility was better, but it’s not like the Panther was a slug

The Panther wins in armor and firepower

[abstract lichen]

what about 17 pounder with HVAP?

[abstract lichen]

listened to nothing i said

also 76mm M1 with M93 could penetrate 240mm of RHA

(thats enough to kill a tiger 2 frontally)

[wintry thistle]

17 pounder 275 268 256 244 233
Panther 265 253 234 216

[abstract lichen]

yup

[wintry thistle]

17 pounder was also rather inn accurate

And causes a variety of issues in the firefly

[abstract lichen]

the firefly issues were mainly bc we put that thing in a mostly unmodified sherman turret

put it in a T23 turret and those issues would be solved, but they never did

(oh ye, also there was a sherman variant with the 90mm M3 from the M26 Pershing)

[wintry thistle]

239 227 208 191 Sherman 76

[pine ember]

Some people here should be quiet when it comes to German equipment since they repeat the same myths over and over again

[wintry thistle]

The numbers clearly show the Panther being superior to the Sherman 76mm
And worse by a very small margin than the 17 pounder but much better in soft factors

[abstract lichen]

panther is NOT better in soft factors what are you smoking?

[pine ember]

Panther wasnt unreliable. Panther was not a low production, expensive and heavy tank. Panther had tech the allies only used after the war (copied from the Panther)

[wintry thistle]

The panthers gun was more accurate than the 17 pounder

[abstract lichen]

6k Panthers made

[wintry thistle]

And didn’t need to remove the bow gun for ammo

Getting rid of the radio operator

And causing the crew to close their eyes when firing

[pine ember]

Yep, its a pretty high number considering the circumstances

[abstract lichen]

i mean for Germany that mightve been better, less crew per tanks means you can man more tanks with same number of tankers

[wintry thistle]

Yes get rid of the radio operator for every tank

[abstract lichen]

ye but compared to what we're comparing the panther to, not much

[pine ember]

Thats against German armored doctrine...

[wintry thistle]

Great idea

You clearly don’t know what your talking about and play too much WarThunder

[abstract lichen]

i dont play War Thunder

that games is buns

Gaijin are a corporate greedy company

[wintry thistle]

I don’t even recall many reports of panthers being penned from the frontal plate

I’m sure it happened but not as often as shots to the side and turret

[abstract lichen]

in Tunisia theres reports of M10's demolishing Panthers

[finite berry]

Very respectable, high number considering the situation Germany found itself in and that production only started halfway through the war

[abstract lichen]

(ig but compared to 49k from the sherman, it kinda dwarfs it)

[wintry thistle]

Panthers in Africa?

[abstract lichen]

1943

[finite berry]

Are you being purposely obtuse?

[abstract lichen]

Tunisia

[wintry thistle]

Not a single panther ever set foot in Africa

[abstract lichen]

(maybe it was somewhere else i cant remember i heard it 3 years ago)

[finite berry]

That comparison is completely pointless because the situations in the American industry and the German industry were so vastly different

It's like comparing apples and oranges.

[abstract lichen]

i mean the convo isnt about industries, its about the numbers made

[finite berry]

It is about industries.

[abstract lichen]

also Panther cost 2x more to make, i did the maths already

[finite berry]

You can't just ignore context when looking at production numbers.

Unless you are being purposely obtuse

[wintry thistle]

The same applies in the modern day. America is such a industrial powerhouse

[abstract lichen]

im not but all im saying was Sherman was easier to produce

it was 2x cheaper

[finite berry]

Exactly

[finite berry]

So?

[abstract lichen]

thats all im tryna say

[finite berry]

Like Prince Paul already said, if Germany had produced the Sherman and the USA had produced the Panther, it's not like the US would've built only 6k Panthers but the Germans 40k Shermans

[abstract lichen]

yes but one cost twice more than the other

[finite berry]

It's not due to the tank, it's due to the industry behind it and the fact that the American industry did not get bombed into the stone age.

[abstract lichen]

you seem to be ignoring that

[finite berry]

https://tenor.com/view/nerd-emoji-nerd-meme-radar-gif-26497624

Your point is utterly pointless.

[abstract lichen]

you dont even have a point?

[wintry thistle]

I mean the Abrams is a expensive tank

It eats fuel like nothing

[abstract lichen]

why are we talking about the M1 now?

[finite berry]

Even if a Panther would have been significantly cheaper, Germany could not have produced many more.

[abstract lichen]

i dont care about the M1

[wintry thistle]

But here’s the thing. America can afford that

[nova oracle]

Elise “ignore sparrow he’s an idiot” energy

[wintry thistle]

Because I’m showing a tank that fits the industry

[abstract lichen]

Panther didnt fit the german industry tho

you already said they had fuel problems

[nova oracle]

If we ignored every idiot, there would be no government

[abstract lichen]

lol

[wintry thistle]

They should have built no tanks then?

[abstract lichen]

nah, just ones that didnt guzzle fuel as much

[wintry thistle]

Germanys fuel problems were around before these tanks

[abstract lichen]

so why build fuel guzzlers then?

[nova oracle]

I blame the Luftwaffe

[wintry thistle]

All tanks are

[abstract lichen]

also i still havent heard a SINGLE good and backed up point about why the Panther was the best tank of the war out of you

[finite berry]

Show me the tank that does not guzzle down fuel

All tanks are thirsty bois

[wintry thistle]

The panthers wasn’t some tank that ate up fuel

[abstract lichen]

some more than others

[finite berry]

Naturally

[wintry thistle]

It wasnt the most efficient but nothing crazy

[wintry thistle]

I never said it was
The Sherman was

[nova oracle]

The Germans lost almost all of her airforce because the AA Gunners thought they were a huge allied bombing raid

[abstract lichen]

brother, why tf are we arguing then

WE HAVE THE SAME ARGUMENT

[nova oracle]

Isn’t prince Paul French?

[wintry thistle]

Cause I think the Panther is better than the Sherman’s armor and firepower and overall design

[abstract lichen]

those last 2 words confused the hell out of me

[wintry thistle]

My reason for the Sherman being the best is due to its pure application that fit perfectly into the American industry

[nova oracle]

Because they won the war?

[wintry thistle]

No

[abstract lichen]

nah bro, Bob Semple tank won the war

not the Sherman

[nova oracle]

True

[wintry thistle]

Best tank is a hard question

[abstract lichen]

Bob Semple

[nova oracle]

The mine sweepers

[abstract lichen]

https://tenor.com/view/bob-semple-tank-gif-27695661

[wintry thistle]

But to me it’s the tank that suited best the needs of their country

[nova oracle]

If it weren’t for the Royal Navy , D-Day would have been a huge massacre

[abstract lichen]

imo imma say Challenger 2 just cus im British

[abstract lichen]

i mean Omaha kinda already was

[nova oracle]

Omaha was horrible

Mini Stalingrad

There was a destroyer crew who gave their lives to help out Omaha

They came in peppered the coastal fortifications to help the second and third waves who were also getting chewed up

[abstract lichen]

someone correct me, did the 2nd Rangers land on the Beach or did they come from Point du hoc?

[nova oracle]

Honestly they should make a film

[cosmic pilot]

Prince Paul being incredibly based 😍

[nova oracle]

The rangers CO diverted them to Sword

Seeing how DOG was a horror movie

[pine ember]

Not in 1943

[nova oracle]

https://youtu.be/xNlsVC70mJQ?si=voqL5Sbt0Dzth8ao

[abstract lichen]

i remember i used to play WT. i stopped. oh how much happier i am now

[nova oracle]

War thunder?

[abstract lichen]

thnx

[abstract lichen]

ye, used to play it. stopped. am much happier now

that game is so horrible

its literally just a cash grab

there are some tanks on sale for $2000 in WT

[nova oracle]

10:50

They got diverted

[abstract lichen]

theres a SKIN in WT that costs $2000

[abstract lichen]

aight thnx

[nova oracle]

Yikes

WT is a mess

[abstract lichen]

i would post photo but cant for some reason

[nova oracle]

Off topic photo

[bold gale]

https://tenor.com/view/nozomi-shupogaki-blue-archive-animation-laugh-gif-13498039959985704586

[abstract lichen]

what is this

[nova oracle]

The admins are more relaxed about stuff unless you’re spewing vulgar hate

[bold gale]

Gif

[abstract lichen]

i know but like what does it mean

[nova oracle]

Is Elise a chick?

[abstract lichen]

like a baby chicken?

[nova oracle]

A woman

A member of the fairer sex

[bold gale]

Who's Elise?

[nova oracle]

Expedition 33

[abstract lichen]

they should add paratroopers to HLL

[cosmic pilot]

No

[nova oracle]

True

I know a couple of female hell let loose tankers

[bold gale]

That's horrible

[nova oracle]

A real party

[meager timber]

what up

[nova oracle]

https://tenor.com/view/sparrabeth-gif-19659392

[meager timber]

https://tenor.com/view/anime-gif-20698367

[nova oracle]

Say it with me lads, women

[meager timber]

women

[abstract lichen]

wonen

[bold gale]

https://tenor.com/view/tea-men-laugh-men-play-men-see-gif-10773066586450587828

[nova oracle]

https://tenor.com/view/girl-power-gif-24469544

[wintry thistle]

Hyrum ahh gif

[bold gale]

We should ban women from Earth

[meager timber]

why, i love women

[hushed wigeon]

anyone else got "Client Integrity Violation" error and know what that means?

[gray garden]

🛐 true! women are too cool to be stuck on earth, send us to the mars or something.

[past vortex]

verify files
also possible you got RAM errors

[bold gale]

Whatever you want, just enough far from other humanity

[gray garden]

I'm guessing you're afraid of talking to woman .. :p

[hushed wigeon]

thanks, will try that

[past vortex]

or its the other way around

[night lark]

There is a reason german offensives, or any other nations for that matter didnt go well in terrain and times of the year where the climate and weather were wet and muddy.

Consider that germany launched is successful offensives (In europe anyway) during the summer or dryer months and had some moderate successes when the ground was frozen. Tanks were successful in the desert because the ground was harder and rocky. They were not used in the dunes and sandy conditions.
Also consider a lot of the successful German tank offensives were early war with lighter weighted tanks.

Thats just the nature of tank combat though, terrain ans weather are big factors. Strip that away however and things like inter-leavened road wheels by their nature trap dirt and ice and mud more so than bogey, and christie, and torsion bar suspensions

[bold gale]

No, I'm suddenly not afraid... If that was just fear, that been more simple

[night lark]

Although i think its funny that Patton was able to relocate his armoured forces in the same poor weather just south of the ardennes offensive to the North to meet the German attack and the germans could barely get their armour moving

[abstract lichen]

when can we have openable doors in HLL?

thats like the main advantage that Enlisted has over HLL

[night lark]

And S44

[abstract lichen]

Squad 44

[past vortex]

i wouldnt call it the main advantage :}

[abstract lichen]

nah it is

[finite berry]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-doggo-smiling-cute-pet-gif-17869715

[abstract lichen]

the modelled vehicles dont matter

[night lark]

No, shhhhhhh

[abstract lichen]

all that matters in Enlisted are the doors

forget the planes and realistic tank modules and the more weapons they have and paratroopers and the events they have and the halloween event. Doors.

[past vortex]

löl

[finite berry]

lul

https://tenor.com/view/nürnberg-in-nürnberg-yoztube-kacke-wolfgang-changing-colors-gif-16125661

[bold gale]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-saddest-двинятин-федор-федордвинятин-gif-22358439

[slate canopy]

Let's not be sexist in here. Thanks. 😉

[bold gale]

Sex is a lie

[finite berry]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/613303196747825152/839933199193735179/24d1581a68cfd2cc30362907a3cf9eff295706d2.mp4?ex=6907a43f&is=690652bf&hm=ca5128e11f9d7dc7daabf8e4bcbdaa6826e5452173e37d01f5308ebe484d249d&

[elder dune]

My game crashed and now i cant get past the ‘Press any button to continue’ screen?

[round mesa]

Me too. Thought there was something wrong with me PC.

[elder dune]

Is Epic having issues?

[river rover]

Looks like it. https://status.epicgames.com/ Doesn't show HLL specifically but it could be any game.

[shy relic]

Why are they releasing a new map when the game is still crashing?

[slate canopy]

Because it's been planned for a while?

[shy relic]

Put it off the game is in disarray focus on fixing it first then put out new content

Or is that crazy person thinking?

[slate canopy]

They already pushed it back?

[shy relic]

Clearly not enough if the game is still crashing for ppl

[slate canopy]

"We’ve also listened closely to your feedback and have made the decision to delay the release of Update 19. This will give us additional time to ensure that it launches in the best possible state. We’ll share the new release date soon."

the PTE is a totally different version of the game 😅

[shy relic]

Don’t even focus on it for now

[slate canopy]

Literally 2 versions.

[shy relic]

Focus on making the game playable

Fix all the issues in the hotfix update topics

[finite berry]

Not crazy, just poorly informed

Level designers usually can't do anything about coding issues and stuff

[shy relic]

Well get someone to

[finite berry]

They are

[shy relic]

Why do they make it seem so hard

[slate canopy]

Hotfix 3 is coming soon.

[finite berry]

Because it is

[shy relic]

Is it really that hard to make a game that won’t stop crashing

[finite berry]

I'm definitely no T17 shill, but I absolutely believe them that HLL's code is a pain in the as s to work with

Plus, this is UE4 we are talking about

[shy relic]

Everyone says this

[finite berry]

Because it's correct

[slate canopy]

You don't even have the game, and even you're like "Hey, they workin' on it" 😛

[shy relic]

But cmon after a certain amount of time eventually they can fix it and work on it no?

[finite berry]

And there is only a small dev team working on this, most of their devs are working on Vietnam

[shy relic]

I hate that so much

[finite berry]

Perhaps because of my "distance" to the game, I have neither doomer nor shill views on the game 😉

[night lark]

Theyd have to build the game from the ground up and then release it lol

[shy relic]

Making new content when their current content is shite

[past vortex]

my impression is that they are NOT really working on stability at all

ofc it is hard

[finite berry]

🤷‍♂️ that's just how it is. If I were in charge of T17, I'd do the same.

[finite berry]

From my experience, players usually underestimate HARD how complicated and exhausting it is to code games

[shy relic]

Can’t they get some of the ppl who made the game to work on it?

Or something it can’t be that hard to fix

[finite berry]

And that players often go like "well, just do that" which would be a tremendous undertaking for the devs. Which the players don't realise because they think it's just pressing two buttons

[finite berry]

Obviously, it can