Adjustments to Small Thrusters

[warm root]

Remove the speed bonus for overclocked small thrusters, and remove the ability of self-power generation for standard small thrusters.

[lean iris]

id also lower the dynamo for the oc to the current cold thrusters

oc small thrusters are dumb as hell. i do think they should have a bit more thrust (400 to 600 or something) but not 400 to fucking 1600

i also dont think you're talking about the

absolute fucking NIGHTMARE that pvp ships are with these

hang on

[warm root]

I know this happened, but since I'm not a PvP player (I used to play, but haven't touched it since the overclock version came out), I don't know how to evaluate it.

[lean iris]

thats fair

i jsut figured id still bring it up because these are also nightmares in pvp

[warm root]

Ye I'm waiting for someone mention it,thanks!

[lean iris]

hell in general the fact that these can be used as main thrusters regardless of pvp intention or not should be a massive red flag in general

normal small thrusters can too but they suck ass. oc dont

for the small cost of a bunch of radiators you can have good crewless thrust, which is not okay!

[golden tulip]

I think someone suggested that dynamos only generate power when the thruster is not firing/only when the power goes to zero (unsure which it was), and I think that's a good nerf

It preserves the turning thrust the dynamo is intended for and nerfs the forward thrust

[gritty trench]

Radiators are not a small cost at all. The issue with small thrusters is their heat generation is too low for what they are - if they pumped out 600-900MJ/s, then they'd probably be balance (and unable to abuse passive cooling)

[lean iris]

i dont think that really helps. it still has the 1600 thrust for its size and if you hold W i dont think it changes anything as if they run out of power they power back on so quickly it doesnt matter

[lean iris]

would you rather build a shit ton of radiators in a line or logistics for your thrusters which also take crew

the issue with small thrusters is the fucking 1600 thrust for their tiny size

cost isnt an issue in career. it is in pvp, though its more of an "its easy" thing in pvp than actually good

i do think they should get a heat nerf and also a thrust mega nerf

i do think they need a mega thrust nerf but also either a heat nerf or a dynamo nerf

[gritty trench]

Honestly I don't like radiators in general

[lean iris]

explain?

not an attack im curious

[gritty trench]

i mean how do i explain it? people just make their ship a row of radiators and overclock everything and it looks ugly as sin

[lean iris]

oh

thats honestly fair enough

[rich drift]

You can make an ugly ship without radiators.
On topic, I would hate if unoc small thrust lost their dynamo, they are great and ment for light steering without crew logistics.

[sage ibex]

We have been discussing small thrust in the balance council. They definitely need a nerf, but removing the extra thrust entirely seems very harsh.
I also dont see a reason to nerf non oc, since those seem very balanced to me.

[warm root]

yeah,I agreee with your first point.
For the second,I think the game should not have any thruster or anything else that able to generates power on its own since no reason

The crew's logistics mechanism is the core mechanic of this game, so even if crew members aren't used to replenish power, it should at least be done through other means, such as oc mode(Like pd,I think nowdays pd design is cool!The only regret is that there is no difference in special visual effects between pd and oc pd）

[lean iris]

i would agree if small thrusters on their own werent horribly weak. oc small thrusters doing traumatizing shit is mostly due to them having too much uptime and too much thrust.

i also think that they should generate heat while they generate power too instead of just while firing. this isnt my idea though

[lean iris]

oc pd hitscan please handler walter

[gritty trench]

I strongly recommend just testing out a heat generation increase. 600MJ/s feels like the right zone

Maybe 550 flat could work

[sage ibex]

I think its fine to break design principles if its only useful in very niche circumstance

[warm root]

OK

[sage ibex]

We are cautious about heat production increases as it would probably break many existing designs, but its not off the table

[gritty trench]

I think it's prudent to rip the bandaid off and break the existing designs that are made to rely on a mechanic that is by it's very nature unbalanceable

crewless parts directly undermine the core game mechanic of crew management

[warm root]

Yes,my perspective might be a bit extreme. I don't insist on everyone accepting it.

[sage ibex]

Small thrust will still be crewless if the heat gets increased, so I dont think thats a good reason.

[sage ibex]

Its ok to disagree

[elfin rivet]

Yeah, OC thrusters are definitevely OP. After first time I used one, I started putting them everywhere 😉 It's not only their power, but also short restricted area.

Imho, they could have two OC versions:

• Balance of current one: dynamo is enough for continuous no-crew operation but thrust is not that big (1200?)
• Pulse mode: flames go bright white, heat generation and thrust rise to crazy values (3k?), but engine dies within second or two and needs refilling (or waiting for dynamo to regen whole 1 power). It has great space-to-thrust ratio but by design you practically cannot use it continuously as it drains nearby storage. That would make it alternative boost engine with no hard-cut work time but soft limit of workforce
• Or, crazy idea: make it ridiculously strong and short, but every pulse generates tons of heat and also damages part directly behind thruster. So with bunch of it, player can create ship able to make actual dodges.

[proper spire]

i was thinking a similar thing: have high power generation and thrust , maybe more heat but the power capacity is reduced to maybe 85% so it would flicker a lot but enough to be "always active"

or: make oc small thruster work similar to a radiator (dissipates small amount of heat) but those dissipated heat is converted to thrust, so the small thruster will only work if there's heat

[gritty trench]

I think the numbers are the core issue with OC smalls, not the mechanics. Case in point: OC standard thruster has 3400kN (large thruster is 3600), but OC smalls have 1600kN AND regeneration (while standards have 1300)

The other issue with regeneration is that other thrusters all get 50% extra power consumption when overclocked, whereas the smalls get 100% extra power generation

[verbal bough]

Raising heat production of OC small thrusters beyond what passive cooling can help with (or lowering passive cooling below what the thruster generates, I'm not picky) is IMO the best way to go. It's not the stats that are the problem, it's ignoring the main mechanic of the Meltdown update in favor of using structure as cooling.

The primary role of small thrusters is equipping on small, flanking ships. The dynamo lets them substitute heat managment for crew management, and the 50 control point minimum for a cockpit means that a "snubfighter" can slap a radiator on using it's "spare" CP.

[gritty trench]

Structure cooling is a cool and inventive concept IMO - the real issue is just that OC thrusters have way more thrust than they should even for an OC part, and their power generation goes up instead of their power consumption.

[verbal bough]

Problem is, Structure cooling leads to those "open plan" PVP ships.

If anything, nerf the OC thrust to the same as the standard small, but the OC applies strictly to the dynamo- OC for more uptime.

[gritty trench]

With my suggestion (reducing the thrust below 1300, removing the power generation boost, adding a power consumption penalty) the OC small thrusters would once again need crew to power them to be practically useful. Non-OC smalls are only used as maneuver thrusters when uncrewed after all, which is one of the few crewless modules I think everybody is fine with.

That said, I'm also opposed to OC PD because automatic power regeneration is antithetical to the spirit of the game.

[verbal bough]

Substituting heat management for crew management is an acceptable trade, to me. I just dont consider structure cooling to be an acceptable alternative to heat pipes+radiators. Radiators cost a lot of control points for a reason, and a 50c structure block is not an acceptable alternative to me.

[lean iris]

giving their dynamo heat production would also make them unable to be structured cooled as easily

[gritty trench]

I'm a fan of different systems providing different efficiencies to differently sized ships. A tiny ship being able to make use of passive cooling is great, because it'd be useless on larger ships. As long as they are forced to power the thrusters via crew it'll remove the current mess that is passive cooled OC small thruster fields in pvp

[lean iris]

also oc smalls are supposed to be for maneuvering what

[gritty trench]

They are being used as crewless passive-cooled forward thrust for a lot of pvp smalls

[verbal bough]

small footprint lets you place them where you dont have much space available, like the sides of your ship.

[lean iris]

yes, if you scroll up i talk about the monstrosities its made

[gritty trench]

Oh you were agreeing with us

[lean iris]

yes, i am saying they need a change, but the change i think would be best is a thrust nerf and making their dynamo produce heat

they're busted right now lol

ive honestly avoided them because they are so busted

[gritty trench]

I'm similar - a thrust nerf and turning the power generation boost into a power consumption nerf

[lean iris]

you can probably do this in a million different ways but as long as the thrust gets nerfed im fine with that

[verbal bough]

The dynamo was the best thing to ever happen to the small thruster. It was basically never used before the dynamo, and I dont want a return to the time before the dynamo existed.

If the non-OC small thruster had the nearly-100% uptime of the OC, with the low thrust of the non-OC version, then with that role filled, I'd be more ok with having the OC be a higher thust, lower endurance option. But it still misses out on the heat management minigame.

[lean iris]

i advocate for this because dynamo producing heat would make them unable to be structure cooled and a thrust nerf is pretty easy to understand

i think you could maybe reduce their heat a little bit (from 250 to 200) but thats mostly to not fuck over ships that actually pipe them/give a small bonus

[verbal bough]

Right now, 4 OC Small thrusters nearly max out a 10k cost, 5 control point radiator. (or 3 OC small thrusters, through a heat exchanger) That feels like a good balance. 200c of structure per OC thruster is not equivilant.

[gritty trench]

4 OC smalls on a radiator is, what, 12600 credits? And pumps out 5200kN. I think that's technically less efficient than a single huge thruster, but there is no ramp up time or crew requirement.

[lean iris]

the main thijng for me is no crew

[gritty trench]

I would still advocate for nerfing the thrust to 900kN

[lean iris]

regular smalls are fine in this regard

piss poor thrust and slow dynamo generation

[gritty trench]

Agreed. This is why I want the power generation boost inverting into a power consumption nerf, like all the other OC thrusters

[lean iris]

i can see your reasoning

[gritty trench]

Regular smalls are perfectly fine as they are yes

[lean iris]

you technically can do the same thing with regular smalls but you aint goin very far or fast lol

[verbal bough]

I disagree. Lower the thrust, let the OC be the dynamo OC.

the low crew requirement is the point.

Or give me the damn 1x1 reactor.

[gritty trench]

The issue a lot of us have is not low crew requirement, it's NO crew requirement.

The same grounds on which I dislike OC PDs

[verbal bough]

I speak as a whole-ship approach

[gritty trench]

You can still use OC smalls as main engines on tiny ships if they need powering

I still use non OC smalls as main engines on some of my smallest designs

[verbal bough]

Fos instance, this is a ship that is primarally energy storage powered, but recharges by turning the hyperdrive into a reactor, refilles, then turns it back into a hyperdrive.

[gritty trench]

Yeah but this is still using a capacitor to take advantage of the lack of a reactor requirement, earning efficiencies which make the radiators cost neutral.

[verbal bough]

trading heat management for crew management, yes

this is a fun starter, even without OC smalls, thanks to the dynamo. needing to stop and recharge the engines every few screens gets annoying after awhile, though.