Experimental Thruster "Ramp Down" Preview #5-6

[cunning grail]

Thanks to everyone for testing the previous experimental thruster ramp-down previews! (If you're new, those previews tried adding a "ramp down" to most thrusters so that they can't turn off immediately.) The votes were very clearly in favor of Preview 4, so this next preview (5) keeps those changes and adds some additional polish, fixes, and an experiment with angular drag. Please use the extremely secure password previewpreview to unlock the "preview" beta branch on Steam. Here are the important changes since preview 4:

• Ship angular drag now changes depending on the ship's linear speed. At 100m/s angular drag will be 100% of vanilla. At 0m/s it will be 50% of vanilla. At 200m/s it will be 200% of vanilla. Linear speeds in-between will have in-between drag amounts.
• Decreased maximum Tractor Beam force by 20% and increased minimum force by 60%.
• Fixed bug causing incorrect thruster activation levels to be used in some circumstances.
• Added ramp-down stats to all thrusters.

Please let me know how you feel about these changes! Please note that I have turned on slowmode for this thread to encourage substantive replies and limit the back-and-forth arguments. If you wish to have an extended discussion/argument, please do it elsewhere. Thanks!!

[untold moth]

finally updated stat blocks \🎉

[lucid sable]

tb nerfed. game unplayable.

[silver marlin]

Any reason we are not useing the halfed thruster rampup instead of the thrust recovery we have now?
People prefered that from what I saw.
Also spinners are gonna spin like crazy now lol.

[outer sky]

ngl i didn't expect the scaling angular drag, but cool!

and i don't think it was conclusive that people preferred the half and half rampup/down preview 3

[silver marlin]

Im talking about preview 3 and preview 4 to be clear.

[cunning grail]

I didn't do a vote on preview 3 but if I did I'm sure it would be nowhere close to as decisive.

[outer sky]

hm, potential issue with the angular drag change, it might make it easier to flip things with TB. typically, the flip happens when a rammer is ramming the TB rail, which means they're moving slowly, and thus now have lower rotational drag (meaning less resistance to TB)

[stone vigil]

wouldn't it also make their turning force against the tb greater and cancel that out though?

[jade coyote]

can someone give me a rundown as to what the preview 4 changes were supposed to solve/help and why they were received so positively? haven't tried it just want some context

[outer sky]

TB has more force than the turning thrust of essentially any rammer, and the target ship won't be able to react immediately

[untold moth]

the main issue is the fact that thrusters can be instantly shut off and have their full power regained later, giving huge thrust (and mrt) exceptional turning power compared to every other thrust, as they simply exerted more force

[outer sky]

it seemed to start with this suggestion from me, you can read my reasoning there, but tl;dr MRT's very dominant in PVP because it can just bypass its intended balance factor of long ramp-up and just turn on a dime

walt did the previews, but decided to apply rampdown to all thrusters, not just MRT. the first preview went way overboard and also removed the rampup recovery window, but quite a few people saw the potential so the idea wasn't immediately shut down. preview 2 toned things back a lot (decreasing the rampdown on every non-MRT thruster by about half iirc, and making MRT's rampdown not scale with extender count), as well as adding back thrust recovery window for every non-MRT thruster. it was generally considered pretty good except for the fact that MRT's quick rampdown and lack of recovery window meant they would lose far too much thrust and were practically useless

preview 3 took a different tactic, and went with Air's suggestion to have both rampup and rampdown be equal to half the rampup of thrusters in the stable branch, for the same total 'ramp time', and also having no thrust recovery window. it was pretty good (and i did especially like that it was less punishing of overturning), but it was still quite wobbly and could be difficult to control

preview 4 basically just went back to preview 2 except it added thrust recovery window back to MRT, and people seem to like it. it plays quite similar to stable, but things with huge thrusters and MRTs are a decent bit less responsive

and we're on preview 5 now, and it hasn't been out for long enough to really tell how it'll be

[hushed badge]

another mrt nerf? fabulous.

i think the angular drag change has to be in a different preview

[outer sky]

i will say i'm not sure on the angular drag change either. if the MRT nerf was less than it currently is, then it'd be valid, but i think MRT and fast ships in general are in a reasonably good place without it

[hushed badge]

mrt is already unplayable on most ships. wouldnt call it a good place

[tepid prawn]

This tbh.

[tacit leaf]

yeah i’m not too sure about it either since it’s also a buff to tb at lower speeds
more testing required but it feels like the rotational drag change mostly or even entirely cancels out the tb force nerf

[mental fog]

this game is starting to get too complicated for my pea brain :(

[stuck axle]

tb change feels like it will make them bland to play

[tacit leaf]

For any excelsior peeps that are gonna be on today, we should test some of the interaction changes between this and normal tb values

[silver marlin]

But also a buff to tb at higher speeds

[tacit leaf]

How so?

[silver marlin]

Because its the opposite change of low speed

[tacit leaf]

Great! So TB is just buffed lmao

[silver marlin]

Wait I meant to say tb is nerfed for higher speeds sorry

[tacit leaf]

Yeah I wondered, makes sense
TB not being able to force a higher speed ship to turn as easily

[tepid prawn]

lmao speed meta becoming even worse

[tacit leaf]

the thing is that it’s balanced out by the ship itself having more difficulty turning at high speed, so the main interactions that are affected by rotational drag are actually rams, orbiting is more affected by the force nerf than drag

[silver marlin]

Idk to me this drag change seems like an unnecessary attempt to stop unintended emergent game mechanics. But I still need to test it

Is it possible that the preview is bugged? Left spinner is preview and right is stable. Preview should spin at 2x speed?

[silver marlin]

From our testing slower rotation at higher speeds should be working though

[hushed badge]

its a spinner which is very heavy with high torque; drag shouldnt take as much effect. though i dont know how drag actually works in cosmoteer im just going off physics. i dont think it should spin at 2x speed, walt said the drag is half of stable which i dont think would mean a doubling in speed but a smaller increase? however the spin speed diff seems very slight even to me

[silver marlin]

Also funnily enough it seems like tb actually got buffed instead of nerfed. The extra tb force at range makes a very substantial impact.

[honest temple]

can confirm that, ive tried approaching a tb rail for a ram and couldnt get it once, even against 6 tb, plaus had similar results

[silver marlin]

Also this bug is even funnier now. Even thrusters that are turned off still fire

[silver marlin]

Actually walt please leave this in the game. This allows us to direct control a ship with only dedicated turning thrust which is a feature we have wanted for a long time.

[harsh topaz]

I don't think the entire state of balance should rest only on the greed of having a new niche feature

[silver marlin]

Our suggestion for the tb nerf is to just remove the min tb force buff which was introduced here.

[vapid sigil]

jokes aside autofire revamp to allow control while some thrusters autofire would probably be that

[honest temple]

In my testing I barely felt the difference in rotational drag and even if the difference was more noticeable I don't think this is a good idea. The change is unintuitive to casual players and frankly I don’t think the changes to rotational drag are necessary at all. The rampdown already brings MRT in line for the most part. If any changes to the drag equation are to be made I think they should affect all drag, not just rotational, so that the top speeds of ships going 200ms are lowered across the board.
The TB nerf feels like more of a buff to me, as the 60% increase to minimal force is massive. In my opinion the minimal force shouldn’t be increased at all, or increased by 20% at most if that is judged to be necessary to balance out the nerf.

[outer sky]

note: TB doesn't have a simple 'minimum force' number in its code, it seems that the minimum force is always set as a percentage of the maximum. this update changed it to be 20% of the new maximum of 40000kn, giving it 8000kn, from 10% of 50000kn (5000kn)

i'd probably put it to 15% of the 40000kn maximum for 6000kn minimum, a 20% buff over stable's minimum that matches up with the 20% nerf to maximum

[tacit leaf]

I will note for the "MRT is underpowered" people that MRT is completely broken in higher price points (as it's designed to be) and poking even a little bit above 1.5 mil restores them to their full relative strength - it's still perfectly usable on bossfight ships, permathrust ships, and missile orbiters

[outer sky]

which is, again, why i suggested configurable thrust inputs

[hushed badge]

i fail to see how this is relevant, higher price points than 1.5m are played by almost nobody and are not the competitive standard

[untold moth]

true, small laser/cannon and smaller thrusters should also be made relevant in 1.5m, and at least have some clear undisputable upside compared to the larger counterparts in >500k as well though

[tepid prawn]

And pvp is a secondary focus of the game, your point?

[untold moth]

where did you get that information from

[vapid sigil]

is there any point to even discuss about said last 2 messages

[tepid prawn]

You... are aware that the main focus is career, yes?

[untold moth]

where did you get that information from

[tepid prawn]

#ask-walt message

[untold moth]

do not see why that is an argument to ignore pvp, especially when almost all pvp balance is directly applicable to career, even moreso in the future when ai is improved

[tepid prawn]

This was a direct response to @hushed badge saying that it didnt matter because people only played 1.5m.

[hushed badge]

stop pinging me with meaningless content please.

[untold moth]

i am of the opinion that any price rang ethat can afford to use something should have a genuine usecase for it anyways, which the game is currently not doing too good a job on, but i think this preview is a small step in the right direction

[tepid prawn]

Imo direct upgrades should exist but be rarer, and as long as the other things have a wide range of uses (Not neccessarily at all price points, but a good number of them) its fine. Nothing will always be useful, and you kinda have to accept that.

[untold moth]

direct upgrades should not exist because they are very boring undecisions - if you can use it, then use it - there is no thought process beyond "can i fit it" (for example, stable mrt just being a decision of "can i move stuff that should be on the back (if anything) to the sides")
if the other things have more uses or are more generalized then yes, there can be an argument for it, but then it is not a direct upgrade - it is a specialization (for example, mrt currently giving massively more thrust per cost/crew/mass at the expense of instant controllability)

[outer sky]

a good few of the elim community have been having good times making 'boss' ships, i think it's worth at least trying out higher price points

and also like. career/casual players

[delicate pebble]

possibly turning thrust on a competitive ship in 2024 what a time to be alive

[hushed badge]

yes but "its good in a niche gamemode" obviously doesnt justify it being horrible in the actual main pvp game mode. flak being good in build n battle doesnt mean its in a perfect balance state currently

[cunning grail]

Can you please upload the file for that spinner?

[silver marlin]

Hotkey 1 for charges and thrust

[cunning grail]

thanks

[silver marlin]

I even made a mod that makes the changes much more extreme. Ships at 0 speed should have no angular drag but they seem to have the regular drag.

[ashen elbow]

In my opinion ultra lights lost a lot of fun. I find that sad. And playing like with a sensation of lag doesn't help either. That's personal preference I guess.

[stuck axle]

Ultralights still need to be usable just not opressive

[outer sky]

they are in fact still usable

[hushed badge]

no lol

[outer sky]

boost UL nukes, UL avoiders, UL morbs, hybrid UL nukes

[silver marlin]

even mrt ul nuke is useable. Just 10 times less fun to play

[vapid sigil]

the preview that was made to make these ships less handly makes those ships less handly, yeah

[cunning grail]

Experimental Thruster "Ramp Down" Preview #5-6

@everyone New preview #6, mostly just reverts a couple things and fixes a big bug:

• Fixed the bug where power-off thrusters would still fire instead of ramping down.
• Disabled the new dynamic angular damping. (But it can still be re-enabled in the rules with mods if you want to test it.) I still like the idea but I'd like to get the ramp-down in the next RC and it's probably too late to get enough testing of dynamic angular damping in for that.
• Reverted the buff to TB's minimum push/pull force.

[tacit leaf]

It was fun while it lasted
Infinite thrust, rest in peace

[outer sky]

do you think we'll have configurable thrust inputs in the RC?

and to anti:

[citation needed]

[cunning grail]

Planning to do an RC tomorrow, so unlikely.

[somber jay]

noooo the infinite thrust 😭
also thank god tb is no longer busted

[outer sky]

oh yeah @swift hatch, have you tested this preview? i have a hunch that the bug fixed in preview 5 might have lessened the issues you're running into with your megaships

[swift hatch]

i have been testing. health has been not the best so havent been able to comment as this takes a lot. Preview6 massive ships still struggle to maintain ramp when dealing with real combat, however it is very close to current. preview6 is at an acceptable state.

Reaching and maintaining ramp up at combat speeds during preview6 is still not in an ideal place, which impacts massive ships more than smaller ships.
I have also been struggling to communicate this rampup loss feedback issue, which has been a problem in all preview versions and current game history.

Gifs fire thrusters to max speed, turn 540 degrees and then only forward thrust input. at no point were thrust controls set to OFF, yet both versions kill the rampup of the thrusters that were already 100% ramped.
current 1st
Preview6 2nd

I hope its easy enough to see... To stop the turn, the thrusters that were at 100% rampup turn off completely, giving time for the 0% ramp thrusters to start up. Thrusters that should have been at 100% ramp up lose this ramp up because the thruster code to balance ship thrust is limiting them to the max output of the 0% thruster side. This feedback loop continues for a while, resulting in the ship taking closer to 10 seconds for all thrusters to reach full rampup, even though those thrusters should all be at 100% ramp up after their specified 4 second ramp up stat.

Every version of scaling ships up such as MRT or massive ships amplify these effects into a feedback loop that destroy thruster rampup regardless of player input. This is frustrating as a player because your ship just doesnt move even though you have been telling it to go forward. several early preview versions amplified this issue to a degree that made it unplayable.

I believe preview3? whichever had the significantly decreased ramp up time for all thrusters resulted in the greatest correction for this thruster-code-caused-rampup-loss problem. But preview3 had other issues I suspect have been corrected since.

[outer sky]

thanks for the writeup. good to hear that this preview's better than others aside from 3, i did think it was more of a coding issue than a conceptual/entirely mechanics issue

hope you get well soon, it is honestly good having someone with such a different playstyle than the norm around, and you are an all-round good member of the community

[swift hatch]

@outer sky for reference, preview6 performs far better than preview3 overall. preview3 had other problems, but this specific rampup loss issue i have been struggling with forever had far less impact during preview3 due to the ramp up being so much shorter in that version. Its a bandaid fix to quickly address the issue without any regard to other balance in the game.

Its been over a year long struggle, hope to be better soon too.

[hushed badge]

is rc actually happening? its so joever

[harsh topaz]

Fixed the bug where power-off thrusters would still fire instead of ramping down.
I wanted to have fun with it, and tried to exploit it but I couldn't come up with anything haha

[tacit leaf]

the snappiness of 0 rampdown mrt was fun for a while but it just got stale really quick, glad the RC is planned

[tacit leaf]

apparently the infinite thrust bug still works but only with magic thrust

[harsh topaz]

Then it's not a bug but a feature

[echo pine]

I think this change will make ships feel laggy and less fun to pilot in direct control. I'll be modding ramp down to instant in my games as I only play campaign anyways.

[slim plume]

Ship drag? are we not in space

[viscid drum]

no we are in a walternate reality

[slim plume]

?

[static scroll]

I feel like people imagine no drag super fun and immersive until they actually play the game and realize that it makes any form of interaction borderline impossible

[silver marlin]

I hosted a no drag tournament and it was super fun

[cunning grail]

Disabling drag is easy to try with mods.