Half Combat Speed Experimental Preview

[vocal portal]

As of yet, no one has successfully explained to me why this preview makes the speed meta worse. About 20% of players playing Career are playing it co-op at any given point in time. The performance improvements definitely help for late-game non-combat. Having multiplayer on 1x is good not just for the SFX/VFX, but also because I think it's best for multiplayer to be played at the "default" speed, which is 1x.

[hollow breach]

Yeah, the jitter gets more severe as the ratio of frames to updates increases.
Beam interpolation is something that I will be looking into soon anyway. In fact I was going to do it yesterday, but I didn't have the time

[pastel moon]

Random Feedback barrage i was writing for a while

(praise)
I like how impactful bullet hits are now since its no longer a constant barrage and they come in fast
also everything else that was said here honestly

(Change Suggestions i tested with a mod, you can try these in here) https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3325309146
To: Reduced railgun bullet, HE missile, and nuke speeds by 10%
nuke speed is almost perfect, i tried lowering it by an additional 5% (haven't seen anything significant and feels better but it may be bias)
To: Doubled thruster ramp-up times
I've heard people saying to use 1.5 or logarythm scaling
i used 1.5 instead of 2x ramp up from original
i really like it. ships feel responsive again. a 1.75x might also work
To: Crew And Salvaging
Air spoke all of that about increasing crew speed and i like it
Mod fixes the half crew acceleration thing that i think it may be a mistake (reverts it to original) and multiplies it by 1.5x ontop for faster crew speed
basically increased mining speed by 1.5x including mining lasers as well (exept when attacking live ships)
This is one of the areas where i almost always turn up 8x speed to skin through an asteroid very fast, or when transferring any amount of resources across the ship

(nitpick suggestions i added to pad out and talk something)
I think with increased laser and other projectile speed i think a little directional trail for such fast projectiles might go very well to make them readable since they fly much faster

Reduced tick speed makes turret rotation and beam rotation jarring and this sounds like a harder problem to solve... ||i'm scared if turrets will become turret1 and turret2 with only one of them being interpolated for graphics only||

short footage with changes

[hollow breach]

Interpolation shouldn't affect gameplay, if that's what you mean. It's purely a smoothing effect applied to position/rotation changes

I like the suggestions, though reducing projectile speeds and thruster ramp sound like they might be overlapping somewhat

[pastel moon]

crew mining

[pastel moon]

well, yeah, its all about implementation, no idea how they can be applied, what i thought was a copy of the turret with no gameplay interpolation (like all interpolated stuff eg. railgun projectiles) and a version that has interpolation and only graphic stuff is chained to it

(more sophisticated solutions can be done but i just dont know them)

also, yeah (on the nuke speed)

not sure on that myself

[glacial jetty]

Like :
- It may achieve the goal of making the game more understandable for newbies, as a lower dps means it doesn't punish as much mistakes.
- It may achieve the goal of making pvp more interesting and faster paced, while not being as stressful as current x1.

Don't like :
- Preview Career combat feels boring and slow for players who have learned the game enough to play at current x1. Preview x2 is too fast and feels absolutely "slippery", I refuse to play like that.
- Industry becomes even more crew intensive as crew is twice as slow.
- Missiles are an issue but I'm not going to talk about it.
- One goal of the preview is to make people stop using 1/2x as animation and sfx isn't made for it. I'd argue that x2 sfx and animation is way worse than 1/2x. 1/2x is actually really nice for slow-mo cinematic like-effects.
- It doesn't fix the speed meta. It actually makes it way worse.
- Higher speed and lower acceleration is frustrating to play with. It works when it's a choice (MRT) but when it's enforced it can become very frustrating to rts move ships with bad pathfinding. In asteroid fields, when hitting an asteroid could cost a small maneuver to get out and back to moving, now it's going to take twice as long.

What I suggest :
- Others ways to have newbies not lost, like intuitive controls, and an actual tutorial. While text boxes are useful, they feel like "oh extra info for players who want it" more than "hey that's critical you should learn that", and people don't really want to read boring text boxes when there's more fun things to do. Highlighting the speed changer, having an introduction briefing that also tells a bit about the lore and is cool to watch (reasons to watch it other than it's a tutorial).
- For pvp, let people choose if they want to correct the animation and sfx. I didn't find preview pvp more or less enjoyable than current pvp, though slightly slippery, and sometimes hard to target modules.```

[pastel moon]

- Missiles are an issue but I'm not going to talk about it.
cuh???

dang

[glacial jetty]

Fast missiles, lower pd dps. Can be fixed. Nukes too fast. Can also be fixed. Not enough message length

[pastel moon]

i've changed my mind a lot on the preview ever since it dropped

feels strange

[granite bay]

Are the 0.27.2 ships on the preview

[pastel moon]

i think so

wdym .2

[glacial jetty]

Yeah I also thought it would be interesting if not good like any preview, I had initially upvoted it because I like to test every new stuff, but after testing all that I feared was true and I really don't like it.

[glacial jetty]

Maybe not. Last preview the new ships at the time weren't there

[glacial jetty]

Also funny stuff about pathfinding in current versions I have deactivated the auto-avoid obstacle because it's just faster to hit the asteroid most of the time

[granite bay]

0.27.1/0.27.2, walt did a few fixes pointed out in announcements but it’s basically the same update, the new ships like zweihander

[pastel moon]

i think so, theres 10mb more or less on the update than unstable

i mean updating from preview to unstable has 10mb diff

[granite bay]

If anyone has game open lmk

[polar halo]

what speed meta is: faster ships are substantially more effective, due to being more agile (the rampdown 'grace period' means ships with monodirectional thrust can turn while maintaining rampup. ships with more thrust can use this more effectively, as they have more thrust on each side resulting in a larger thrust differential resulting in much more turning for the same amount of lost time), higher speed (allowing them to dodge projectiles, outrun opponents for hit&run attacks, even potentially orbit around enemies fast enough that the enemies either physically can't turn to keep facing them or to do so have to turn to one side long enough to lose thrust rampup on that side, which means the orbiting fast ship can simply invert direction and easily get around to the sides and rear of enemies). being this fast and agile also allows the behaviour of 'nuke flinging', where a ship using nukes turns rapidly and flings nukes out of its launchers with its angular momentum, making them move very quickly towards an enemy, or aroudn to the sides or rear, in ways that are very difficult to dodge if flung well. the most prevalent of archetypes to use this behaviour, and the archetype generally considered to be one of the most problematic, is the ultralight nuke orbiter or UL nuke

[pastel moon]

what ships are on the version

[polar halo]

what this preview does in pvp: functionally, all craft top speeds and most projectile speeds have been doubled, with a few projectiles instead having a functional 80% speed increase (nukes, HE, and rails, if my math is correct). the increased arming time for nukes brings them closer to their original functionality, but the increase to speed still makes them vastly harder to dodge. the functional doubling of ship top speeds means the gap between ship speeds is also functionally doubled. a ship that goes 100m/s and a ship that goes 200m/s have a speed gap of 100m/s. however, in the preview, since ship speeds have been functionally doubled, this is now a speed gap equivalent to 200m/s. these speeds are for demonstration purposes, but to be honest they're actually not too far off from my usual ships fighting the current fastest (and also hardest to deal with) archetypes (~110m/s vs ~220m/s).

the functionally increased speed means that ships that already have a difficult time dealing with the faster ships (like my favoured archetype, ion rammers (which do also need some extra help because ions are Not Great™️ rn but that's a different topic)) have an even more difficult time dealing with them, due to the functionally increased speed gap and the fact that speed has been functionally doubled but turn rate hasn't both meaning it's vastly harder to stay on target against a ship moving at extremely high speeds, while the fast ships have an easier time hitting with their newly-faster nukes and even higher top speeds allowing for faster hit&run

even an archetype typically considered very good against ultralight superspeed ships (tractor beam railfans) has been struggling lately (both in and out of preview), with the speed of ultralight ships meaning they can overpower and get out of range of the tractor beams, their insane agility allowing them to even dodge railgun shots, and the low engine count of TB rails meaning they can't turn fast enough to reliably keep the UL (ultralight) ship targeted. the preview may help to make the railguns harder to dodge, but the increased engagement distances that i've seen happen in battles on preview mostly counteract this, and the functional speed doubling while rotation remains unchanged is still a huge issue

another problem with the functional doubling of top speed is how much more twitchy the controls are, especially for the archetypes that require rapid and precise movements, like the aforementioned UL nukers, or Avoiders. this means that it does take more skill to pilot these well. that might sound like a good thing (rewarding skill more), but it's immensely hard to deal with for anyone of lesser skill and/or using a different archetype. something that's been said a few times in the pvp community lately is that UL nukes don't have matchups, they have skillchecks, which i wholeheartedly agree with. there is no archetype that has a favourable matchup against a UL nuke, so it comes entirely down to the skill of the players, and the players fighting a UL nuke simply cannot do as much with their skill if they're not also using a UL nuke, meaning UL nukes have a massive advantage in the hands of a player who knows how to use them. this has only become more prevalent with the preview, as it increases the skill ceiling and floor of these ships even more

the twitchier controls also brings another level of unfairness in: ping dependence. the reaction speeds required by the fastest and lightest of ships means that they are far more affected by ping than other archetypes, which means that their effectiveness is altered purely based on who's in the lobby, and means that people with bad ping physically cannot use these ships to their full potential. as a new zealander, it's probably easy to see why i'm a bit miffed at this in particular.

hopefully this does a decent job of explaining the problem

[granite bay]

Monolith zweihander is among them

Sword shaped ship

All of saris new cabal stations

[pastel moon]

✅

[granite bay]

le epic

now that ions are fixed i can test the preview lol

[glacial jetty]

You explain it very well, better than me

[pastel moon]

we should make a mini tournament /hj

[glacial jetty]

I merely did a list of subjective stuff

[glacial jetty]

honestly if words don't convince the devs we should absolutely do that

[uneven citrus]

That's such a charming ol' fella, I like it a lot.

[remote wind]

What I personally don't understand is complaints of speed meta being worse, because this suggests that being fast won't always be the optimal strategy

No matter what speed is considered the minimum competitive requirement, it will always be the case that speed is a minimum competitive requirement. Speed is simply too powerful, it lets you;

• Determine engagements, when and how they begin
• Evade attacks and negative positions
• Take advantageous positions
• Chase down fleeing opponents, or fleeing chasing opponents more effectively
• Utilize a wider array of weapons and strategies
• Win ramming contests through better ability to apply torque and force
• Dodge nukes and mines

Now with all that being said, it should be clear why 'speed meta' is always going to be something that's prevalent, and thusly stating that a change is bad because it makes speed meta worse is nonsense.

"But it makes higher speed ships more common!" That's irrelevant; the winner will always be fast ships. It wasn't as though there were some <60 m/s ships that were viable suddenly all become invalidated, they've been invalidated for a very long time now.

[remote wind]

Please, by all means, host tournaments all the time. People trying their absolute best, no holds barred to win a tournament is one of the few ways to get pure testing data to prove a point. A lot of the discussion here has seemed mostly like lipservice because there's not regularly been much to back up the claims

[winter tree]

my guy it completely failed at one of its stated intentions

[remote wind]

"HOPEFULLY"

IE not a mainline intention

[winter tree]

HOPEFULLY DOES NOT MEAN MAKE IT WORSE

https://tenor.com/view/keemxdaxtruth-lmao-dead-nope-gif-14774804

[polar halo]

this change makes the game substantially less fun in PVP because already-strong archetypes became even more hellish to deal with. speed is incredibly useful as an attribute, yes, and i don't think that should change at base, but something needs to be done about the fact that ships are being forced to go 150m/s to have any chance against the currently-dominant 1 or 2 archetypes

[granite bay]

It’s a difference between a goal that needs to be fulfilled otherwise the update is a failure or something that would be nice but not required for walt to push it through

[remote wind]

Why do you keep posting that gif

[winter tree]

https://tenor.com/view/keemxdaxtruth-lmao-dead-nope-gif-14774804

[polar halo]

your point about utilizing a wider array of weapons and strategies is also true, but only up to a point. when you get fast enough, chucking nukes at your enemies becomes the only useful strategy, and it's a goddamn pain to deal with

[polar halo]

i also want to know

[winter tree]

because fish

https://tenor.com/view/fish-effishient-its-very-spinning-fish-gif-26223614

[gusty eagle]

@winter tree Please chill with the gifs. It's both spammy and irrelevant to the conversation.

[winter tree]

but like

fish

[pastel moon]

due to personal reasons i am no longer part of team seas for no reason whatsoever

[polar halo]

the speed range from ~80 to ~150 is where i think PVP should be at, as this is fast enough for interesting and dynamic gameplay, allows for the greatest variety of weapons to be useful, and doesn't pigeonhole ships into being either blocks of thrusters with nukes and shields (optional) strapped to the sides or something purpose-built to counter the former (which is what's currently happening)

[gusty eagle]

Ok well, let me put it this way. Stay on topic and don't post unnecessary gifs, or you'll get a warn.

[polar halo]

being any faster than 160m/s should be the realm of gimmicky ships that can be useful at times, not a requirement to be useful

[glacial jetty]

" always be fast ships "

railspinners and rail tbs
The faster ship or the longer range one

[polar halo]

UL nukes can dodge rails

[pastel moon]

i have my own inconphrehensible ways of balancing thrusters (mostly by changing the price of the thrusters themselves) and its out of the scope of this

[glacial jetty]

Truth, but i'd argue tbs is a good way to deal with them. You can throw them off pretty good

[polar halo]

or failing that, tank them enough on the shields (for ones that have them, the shieldless ones can definitely dodge) to get enough nuke volleys off to be able to reliably tank

[polar halo]

they move too fast for TB to really have time to have an effect

they're also quite square and compact and overall not a good shape to get torque on with TBs

[glacial jetty]

I definitely agree. It's not because it's already strong that it being stronger isn't a bad thing

[granite bay]

testing this and dang missiles are stronk

all my orbiters get erased by anything equipped with HE

[grand granite]

Not really, speed meta go brr

[glacial jetty]

Told ya. My anti missile avoiders get completely demolished by about half the missile it took to even land one.

[median burrow]

can the preview still use mods

[glacial jetty]

Yeah but you have to modify them a bit to make them compatible

[winter tree]

Anyways.

It completely fails at its other intentions as well and creates a host of other problems- when it could really easily be solved without this. With projectile speed unchanged it will be significantly harder to dodge projectiles, (especially nukes), and it makes the game significantly less inviting given that the player has less control over their spacecraft.

Animations are one thing, but from what people have said they look worse in 2x then in 1/2x, and part of the pvp populace does play on 1x (dom iirc), and it would just as easily be solved by adding a toggle for linking animation speed to actual speed. It is also not a more intuitive default speed- crew feels abysmally slow and ships have less control.

Co-op is again, an entirely different issue, and can only be solved by optimising everything (Including travel times, industry, mining, logistics, EVERYTHING for 1x, and removing the ability to change speed.

[glacial jetty]

It's like a line of code and it also may cause errors

[median burrow]

I assume you mean for balance and not some compatibility issues?

[winter tree]

https://tenor.com/view/nixbreakdown-ace-attorney-phoenix-wright-objectionlol-gif-23675781

[hollow breach]

Most of us do the same. It's an unfortunate fact of the current AI

[winter tree]

god I feel like im saying this to a brick wall

[glacial jetty]

No, you have to modify the version the mode is compatible with iirc

So it actually runs

Or I'm not thinking about the right game

[median burrow]

I’m pretty sure that just gives you a small warning that can be completely ignored

[pastel moon]

yeah

i love the X button when doing RTS commands and it ignores collision only for that command

[polar halo]

i will note, it does not completely fail at the other intentions, but it is definitely not the best way to fix those issues

[glacial jetty]

Oh then I'm thinking about the wrong game

[grand granite]

Textwall, takes a while to read

[winter tree]

cough cough having an actual tutorial

[granite bay]

I dont think having a tutorial would really help tbh, most people skip them or complain if they’re forced

[glacial jetty]

don't remove the ability to change speed :< not everyone has communication issues with their friends

[winter tree]

Co-op is again, an entirely different issue, and can only be solved by optimising everything (Including travel times, industry, mining, logistics, EVERYTHING for 1x, and removing the ability to change speed.

Or by creating some sort of local speed-changer, but I have been informed that is diffult/impossible

[granite bay]

gonna bump this so devs can see and say whether this is goated or impossible

[glacial jetty]

Make players able to be in different systems and being able to speed up independently from each other when they are not in the same system. Sometimes we just want to play on the same world without actually interacting between each other.

[hollow breach]

@thick anchor Just wanted to highlight these suggestions in-case you missed them. I think there are some good ideas here

[winter tree]

Just like
have it there, rather similar to how ksp does it
If people need it they will consult it, but otherwise its fine. Its not text walls like the current and will allow people to actually ease-in and learn the mechanics, or just go into the deep end if they want to

It gives them the choice, and provides an accesible resource for new players that dont know wtf to do and find the text walls imposing

[winter tree]

Also this if its more feasible

[hollow breach]

I fear your faith in players in regards to tutorials and information retention may be misplaced. It's pretty common knowledge within game design that tutorials are rarely a good solution to a problem

[glacial jetty]

It's definitely feasible. You could simply have multiple single player games, and do a resync when someone jumps into your system. For save management you would need to be a bit creative but It's definitely feasable

[hollow breach]

It's the equivalent of designing a road like a highway and then sticking a 40km/h speed limit sign on it - people will behave according to the design, not the instruction

[glacial jetty]

I like games who manage to tell me what I need to do without plastering it to my face, and if I fail give me a subtle hint.

[pastel moon]

"hey did you know you can dodge nukes? you should try, here, i'm already loading a save 5 seconds ago before your ship exploded and already told your ship to move diagonally"

[glacial jetty]

I also like audio for tutorial. Having a character that audibly tells you an information helped me a lot and is way less disruptive than a visual tutorial

[polar halo]

i'll disagree there, i find visual instructions (be they written or image) to be far better

[glacial jetty]

I think of Fractal Space wich told me what was the purpose of an item by a dialogue between my character and an AI

[granite bay]

I personally ignore any tutorial past the controls

[glacial jetty]

It has to be well designed and integrated to the world

[glacial jetty]

Or simply portal

[winter tree]

Unfortunately this is true, but at least having those accessible resources should help imo. The changes dont make it more newbie-friendly, especially with the thrust/accel changes. They make it slow and significantly impact other parts of the game- while making it harder to avoid the one thing that trips up a lot of people (Nukes)

[polar halo]

i think that might be more due to me having some degree of audio processing issues (being autistic is fun) but there is also the fact that you can much more easily go back and see the instructions again if it's written or image

[glacial jetty]

Honestly newbies struggle more with making good thrust than changing the speed

[winter tree]

yeah, people tend to go all forward thrust kekw

[glacial jetty]

My father really struggled with making a ship that could simply strafe enough to do basic maneuvers

[polar halo]

to be fair this does become optimal in elim pvp

[glacial jetty]

An intro cutscene is a very good way of subtly giving player info before they enter the actual game.

[winter tree]

For normal gameplay it well

isnt

lol

[polar halo]

i do think that some variety of intro is a good idea

[granite bay]

what exactly are you trying to make tutorials for anyways? I feel like most things beyond the basic controls like ship building techniques and combat tactics should be left up to players to figure out since that’s the whole challenge of the game

[polar halo]

like, your chosen starter being caught in the crossfire of a battle between factions would be a great way to introduce players to both the factions (and their respective gimmicks) and how combat works in the game

[winter tree]

Crew roles, for one

[glacial jetty]

https://youtu.be/9Kn2k2sQ-jE?si=RjWUAnN7EtGu2rrY

Look at this intro. It's really funny, it explains to you that this is a puzzle game with buttons that do things, who are the bad guys, and who are you controlling.

[polar halo]

true

[glacial jetty]

Already you're prepared for what you're going to do

[winter tree]

And basic ship design principles and how the mechanics work

[stoic mauve]

@polar halo have you played the most recent patch of the preview, and did it have the same issues

[polar halo]

i just had a couple games against yuuki, and while we didn't test all archetypes (just had mirrors with CG and then ion rammers), yeah the speed issues get annoying

there is also the fact that combat feels a lot more fast-paced in preview 1x compared to current halfspeed, which is not necessarily a good thing

with how fast elim tends to be, it's already plenty fast-paced enough

[stoic mauve]

Yea so it still feels like 1x with random changes alr

I don’t rlly get why you could just call 1/2 x 1x and change the animations ngl but I have no dev experience

[glacial jetty]

I think in human DC vs DC, it's very good to have a slower game from the rest, just because humans like to throw the other humans off, make them do mistakes and all. You always react, rarely anticipate. AI are very easy to anticipate on the other hands, like RTS on dom.

[stoic mauve]

I also don’t fully get what the intention of the games is I just play meta pvp

[unreal mesa]

its mega silly yeah

even with all the stat changes it just felt like we were fighting at 1x speed

[winter tree]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-silly-gif-13955600096943134302

[stoic mauve]

Gif police gonna get you

[unreal mesa]

fwiw i personally dont hate the changes in movement but theta is correct in how lag will make the game even more unplayable even in career

[polar halo]

the one thing that i do like about how combat feels in the preview is that things are more drifty, it feels more like newtonian movement than the current way, which feels a bit more similar to driving a boat

but the things that cause that are also big problems imo so eh

[winter tree]

though thats not really a good thing for newer players

[unreal mesa]

yep, that too

1x speed is objectively more fast paced than 1/2x speed used to be so this update really just makes the perceived issue it tries to solve worse

not to mention now 1/2 speed is agonizingly slow and makes fights drag on

[stoic mauve]

On stable or preview?

[unreal mesa]

preview obviously

[stoic mauve]

Kk

[near herald]

it's hard to keep up with these threads but is there a stated reason why the "new" 1x speed is not literally 1:1 the same as the current 1/2 speed? A lot of the criticism seems to be arising from the fact that some things are slower or faster than before but not the same.

[granite bay]

thats what i been saying

[polar halo]

because it aims to keep travel time the same as current

[unreal mesa]

devs wanted to keep projectile speeds faster for animation purposes and top speeds higher to help with transit times in career

[polar halo]

and projectile speed changes are imo a good thing with the exception of nukes and HE

[granite bay]

The reason is that walt wants travel time to be the same but that’s why i have been recommending to smallen then system sizes instead

[polar halo]

a lot of projectiles were dodged too easily

[unreal mesa]

i think both of those are not really good reasons but it is what it is

agreed

he and nukes need full revert

just to how they used to be

[near herald]

I mean nukes have needed better balancing for a while but I imagine this change would not help that

[glacial jetty]

There is, look up at the initial message.

[granite bay]

for pvpers sure maybe but now nuke and HE ships are insanely more powerful and pd is nearly useless

[glacial jetty]

(and flak having very slow fire rate to begin with)

[granite bay]

for me, doing mostly ai vs ai

[stoic mauve]

This game should be balanced around PvP above all

As it’s design taken to the extreme

[granite bay]

but most players play career

[unreal mesa]

if its balanced in pvp its balanced in career

[pulsar skiff]

that is a terrible decision

[winter tree]

no...?

[unreal mesa]

mostly balanced

[near herald]

I do enjoy career a lot yeah, and when I'm not I go into creative to play with ship ideas to eventually mod into career

[stoic mauve]

Why

[polar halo]

#ask-walt message

doot

[granite bay]

on preview a new player is gonna go insane trying to figure out how to beat nuke ships since they’re twice as hard to dodge now

[unreal mesa]

and anyways this change absolutely obliterates pvp balance and is also bad for the games combat in general go figure

who woulda thunk

[pastel moon]

they have longer times and have slower flight speed

[stoic mauve]

On preview we PvP players agree nukes are busted tho

[polar halo]

PVP shouldn't be the only thing that is taken into account for balancing, but for weapons and combat in general, it is a lot easier to make the game feel worse by breaking pvp balance than by breaking career balance

i probably worded that terribly but oh well

[unreal mesa]

im not sure what your point here is. most pvp players want the nukes nerfed too

[winter tree]

wait

no

no

https://tenor.com/view/lmao-lol-laughing-laughing-emoji-gif-17983155

[granite bay]

and I haven’t tested it but I can’t even imagine how much more of a pain augustus is gonna be

[stoic mauve]

Bc you can’t dodge them bc it’s half the reaction time while being slower

[unreal mesa]

cant dodge it unless ur an ul thruster brick more like

[granite bay]

my point is that the average career player and a veteran pvp player are two very different groups

[hollow breach]

I do think that there's some middle ground between previous nuke dodgability and the current lack thereof

[granite bay]

and balancing for the latter is kinda weird considering it’s the much smaller group

[unreal mesa]

nobody in pvp things nuke dodgability is an issue

[stoic mauve]

Previous nukes are fine imo

[winter tree]

pvp players and career players setting aside their differences to oppose this

[gusty eagle]

?warn @winter tree Spamming gifs after being directly told not to, and that continuing would cause a warn.

[light lodge]

zendikarofthewest has been warned.

[winter tree]

mf I wasnt spamming gifs

[stoic mauve]

Gif police got em

[unreal mesa]

jor jorwlel 1984

[gusty eagle]

I said, and I quote, "don't post unnecessary gifs or you'll get a warn". None of those gifs were necessary.

[pastel moon]

i agree that this warn is unwarranted

atleast at this specific moment

[polar halo]

yeah imma agree, that wasn't an unnecessary gif

[unreal mesa]

this is just like in that book guys

[gusty eagle]

To be clear this is for all of the gifs posted since that message; I'm just now catching back up on chat history

[winter tree]

I mean like
It was an amusing gif that connected to the conversation and wasnt harmful
dont see an issue with that

[pastel moon]

i see only 4...

[unreal mesa]

this exp branch should be emblematic of why its NOT bad to balance around pvp because this change is a clear example of balance around career gone wrong in a way

[winter tree]

Wasnt one of their stated intentions to also balance around pvp?
thing tried to do both and failed

[gusty eagle]

If you think it's unwarranted, feel free to ask Pronto for a reevaluation.

[unreal mesa]

no

[granite bay]

yes

[unreal mesa]

this was through and through a career change as devs almost explicitly stated

[stoic mauve]

It was an attempt but it’s rlly overshadowed by the other changes

[winter tree]

me when I the yes

[unreal mesa]

nobody in pvp asked for these changes anyway

[glacial jetty]

I don't want nuke nerfed, imo they are fine. UL are not.

[stoic mauve]

The mrt ramp up changes

[winter tree]

imma b real idfk where I do that kekw

[unreal mesa]

the whar

[granite bay]

I have seen ppl complain about speed meta

[glacial jetty]

They just go really well with UL

[unreal mesa]

what does this update have to do with speed meta, it makes speed meta worse

[gusty eagle]

The idea is to improve career without significantly affecting pvp.

[unreal mesa]

pvp is the secondary consideration

pretty clearly stated

[winter tree]

well it
failed at that

:moment:

[glacial jetty]

Well it's visibly failing at both

[polar halo]

yeah

[stoic mauve]

Which can be done here ideally btw

[granite bay]

walt literally says in the screenshot that fixing speed meta is a goal

[glacial jetty]

I don't have hope it can be viable

There are probably some lessons we cant take out of it

[unreal mesa]

its clearly an afterthought as nothing in the update would ever realistically fix it

[stoic mauve]

I do since it’s rlly early

[winter tree]

[glacial jetty]

like new player experience needing some love

[remote wind]

Watching four people mutually all resay and agree on the same things is really amusing

[stoic mauve]

Real or false?

[pastel moon]

captain and the echo chambers

[winter tree]

do be like that

[polar halo]

i don't think this is the case. i can see how functionally doubling projectile speed as well as reducing acceleration could have had an affect on speed meta, but the functionally doubled ship speed entirely undoes this

[winter tree]

again where do I do this rahhh

[remote wind]

#discord-meta

[polar halo]

it's more a problem of the devs not fully understanding why speed meta is the way it is (which is fair, the devs don't play pvp) and thus taking flawed measures to counter it

[glacial jetty]

I think maybe cannons should get projectile speed increase too, just like blasters

and disruptors but it's not as important as they are very close range anyways

[gusty eagle]

Either ping Pronto in #discord-meta or DM them. Their user ID is 187296094193975296.

[polar halo]

saris discovers people agreeing on something (2024, colourized)

[winter tree]

moment

[winter tree]

tbh in career cannons feel pretty nice

At least once you get a bit further in

[glacial jetty]

Yeah but they are so easy to dodge even at almost point blank :'3

[winter tree]

at the beginning they suck because well

[glacial jetty]

AI don't dodge

[granite bay]

with redstone in chat i will again offer up my idea of halving every speed so as to effectively make new 1x the same as current 1/2x, but make systems half the size to solve the travel time issue

[winter tree]

dies in that starter ship with shield

[gusty eagle]

I think that'd cause a lot of problems with objectives severely overlapping. As-is you can have multiple bounties within range of each other.

[stoic mauve]

They can’t tell we are PvP players bc we haven’t won tournaments ):

[glacial jetty]

I dunno, my starters use cannons because cost efficient. It's not that bad and sturdy

non DC cannons scale really poorly though

[winter tree]

tbh I like large cannons

they have punch

[granite bay]

I feel like that should be easier to solve than all the current issues with the preview, idk tho

[winter tree]

if they had more punch it would be nice tho

[gusty eagle]

This also wouldn't fix the far more significant problem of new players failing to keep up with 1x combat.

Afaik combat is the main focus, not like ship travel times.

[winter tree]

me when the speed change setting

[granite bay]

i agree but it would be a free boost to performance and the animations would it not?

[stoic mauve]

L micro

[glacial jetty]

Yeah they (lcs) are amazing on squibs. I have some fighters concepts. But I also have DC fighters they perform the same and are sturdier.

[gusty eagle]

New players don't like to (or even forget they can) switch off of 1x.

[granite bay]

the other things could be adjusted from there

[gusty eagle]

If new players properly utilised speed control, this entire concept would be void.

[glacial jetty]

Yeah we proposed solutions to that

And you didn't consider it it seems

[winter tree]

[glacial jetty]

At least 3 different solutions

[granite bay]

I also thought the general consensus is that 1/2x speed is fine for players

[stoic mauve]

Why not just change the speed control U.I. or something then

[granite bay]

which is what the new ‘1x’ would be

[glacial jetty]

Simply highlighting the speed changer on top

or automatically changing the speed for the first few fights

(while notifying the player it happened)

[winter tree]

or just

having a proper tutorial

[glacial jetty]

too

[winter tree]

https://tenor.com/view/anime-fustration-headbanging-gif-18645069

Me after I have said this like 30 times

[glacial jetty]

calm down with the gifs you're going to get warned again

[winter tree]

mf its RELAVENT

[gusty eagle]

That's pretty much exactly what we're doing; the only "real" change is adjusting thrusters to prevent ship travel in career from taking twice as long.

[winter tree]

And projectile speeds

and made shields tankier

[polar halo]

people are suggesting halving the system size while also doing everything here, except for top speed remaining unchanged

[gusty eagle]

Just because we haven't directly acknowledged feedback doesn't mean we haven't taken it into consideration. I personally like the idea of "set speed to 1/2x".

[polar halo]

false, as of the preview update

[gusty eagle]

Sitting down and trying to respond to every single bit of feedback would never end.

[stoic mauve]

I don’t understand why this patch preview feels so much different in game as a player then good much to all on the dev team tho

[stoic mauve]

This was a mistake that should * be fixed

[winter tree]

dev bias for their own update

[unreal mesa]

worded to be pretty clearly just a potshot, "hopefully" doesnt exactly indicate its the intention of the update whatsoever

[stoic mauve]

Fun game bias dw

[gusty eagle]

Which is exactly why we're asking for feedback, and why this thread exists.

[winter tree]

s a r c a s m

[glacial jetty]

(simpler solutions are often better)

[unreal mesa]

this is a massive change

[granite bay]

I will continue to champion my idea unless it is too hard to do on a technical standpoint. The reason I came up with it in the first place is that I felt like there was too much empty space in a system not on preview

[unreal mesa]

:/

[gusty eagle]

Correct. Y'all need to remember that this is an experimental branch, not a release candidate.

[polar halo]

ngl i do agree with it. it'd probably be the smoothest implementation of the idea

[glacial jetty]

Yep. It's like trying to change a sock by cutting the feet and getting a new one with another sock. It gets the job done, but at what cost, and with how much pain ?

[stoic mauve]

How long was the storms in an experimental branch for?

[unreal mesa]

i would appreciate then that devs actually acknowledge this change is a big issue and should be addressed instead of kinda trying to handwave it away almost

this should be framed as a fundamental change to combat like it is

[gusty eagle]

I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't actually "experimental", just a normal preview.

[winter tree]

This.
It doesnt help that saris was basically treating it like it was coming whether we liked it or not. (No offense to you saris, since youve since walked it back :>)

[winter tree]

Correct

[stoic mauve]

I thought preview meant experimental in the first place mb

[winter tree]

Now experimenting in movie theaters near you-

[glacial jetty]

yeah but by the time this is in a RC it will be to late for us to make it not happen if we judge it's not a good change.

Honestly if this suddenly popped up in a RC I would have had a heart attack

[gusty eagle]

I mean to my knowledge we're not treating this as a minor change. It's an experiment that we're trying to refine as much as possible, but if it turns out not to work well, then so be it.

[winter tree]

but if it turns out not to work well, then so be it.

[median burrow]

I can’t wait for more ways to travel in career that won’t effect pvp negatively

because it seems like changing ship speeds at all is a terrible balance nightmare

[granite bay]

exactly

[pastel moon]

ftl drives

[alpine jasper]

this is why we let PvP be a secondary thing

[pastel moon]

"but your're wasting hyperium" YOUR'RE WASTING YOUR LIFE'S SECONDS!!!

[winter tree]

hyperium tho

[unreal mesa]

this change is almost as bad for career combat as it is for elim

[pastel moon]

this change is almost as good for career combat as it is for elim

[median burrow]

mining hyperium or buying it feels like a bigger waste of time to me

[pastel moon]

https://tenor.com/view/toss-coin-flip-gif-26540302

[unreal mesa]

call it

[pastel moon]

i get sufficient hyperium from the ships i explode

[median burrow]

what

[unreal mesa]

kinda gotta efficiencymaxx for that

annoying

[median burrow]

you mean stations or trade ships? because combat ships last I checked never have blue fuel

[alpine jasper]

i really should try to find to play in this update as skimming through all the agruments desscutions, i still have no clue on what exactly the issues/benefets are

[granite bay]

if everything speed related is halved and system sized is also halved it solves the majority of walts goals

1. The ‘default’ 1x speed would be effectively the same as current 1/2x speed which should make combat as easy for new players as expected
2. See above
3. Never played co-op so idk
4. Unaffected
5. Should work exactly as walt is hoping

There would be absolutely no pvp balance changes, and the only change balance-wise in career would be that players have half as much space to maneuver around in, but frankly as it currently is, there is so much empty space in a system that I can’t see it being an issue except for kite players, which walt has also expressed interest in trying to nerf, so i see this as an additional benefit

[winter tree]

well
except for logistics

and factories

[median burrow]

I wouldn’t go so far as to half the size but maybe somewhere in between considering the size of nebulas

[polar halo]

nebula could also be shrunk, bring them a bit closer to in line with PVP

[glacial jetty]

Personally I only want the lower level systems to be smaller as ships are smaller and slower

[polar halo]

add a new, 16x speed which will be functionally identical to current 8x

[granite bay]

logistics wouldn’t be affected

[winter tree]

it would

[polar halo]

you say this like people don't make uberslow bricks

[winter tree]

bc crew speed

:moment:

[median burrow]

oh variable size could be cool too

[winter tree]

gotta love organisation being even worse...

[granite bay]

logistics isn’t affected when you switch the game to 1/2x speed currently

[median burrow]

I think they mean for career factories

[winter tree]

Im talking about noncom logistics
I.e. speed of sorting and manufacturing

[median burrow]

like steel/diamonds etc

[glacial jetty]

If anything higher level systems could be bigger because I feel like It's sometimes very cramped by the sheer amount of large npcs/km2

and speed isn't as much of a problem since you can have your own beacons

[granite bay]

well walt seems to think it is a problem

[winter tree]

me when hyperium
a lot of the time its simply more efficent to 8x and jet over

[granite bay]

as for career factories i think dissuading players from sitting there doing nothing while factories work at 8x speed is also good? idk i never did that personally

[glacial jetty]

I think speed is only a problem at lower levels when ships use tiny and standard thrusters and go 60-70m/s

[grand granite]

Me using ships that go over 110 without mrt

[granite bay]

everyone here knows how to make fast ships but having talked to noobs i am confident most players havent built a ship that goes >50 m/s

[median burrow]

not sure how you mean accomplish that

[granite bay]

I already stated

[glacial jetty]

meh I have hyperdrives near reactors so it's pretty fast to just jump especially when i'm trying to surround a base or a station i'm going to get wanted status for.

But that's just how I play

I did suggest making hyperdrives use less power

[granite bay]

If factories take twice as long in realtime then players would do it less

[alpine jasper]

probably closer to 70m/s but that might be generous

[median burrow]

then they just sit there longer?

[granite bay]

some might

some would naturally figure out ways to procure resources faster

which is the point

[glacial jetty]

I guess most players not in discord haven't made a ship that goes above 100m/s

maybe 90

[median burrow]

if they aren’t doing so well and need more resources to stand a chance against the enemies closest to them then they wouldn’t want to be waiting 12 hours to rebuild

[glacial jetty]

but under 90 you get some issue like npcs successfully kiting you

[alpine jasper]

hell most of my career ships probably barly reach 70m/s lol

[granite bay]

Since I joined the server I’ve seen a lot of new players show their ships and more often than not their ships go <50

[glacial jetty]

heck even my industrials go somewhat fast

[median burrow]

as someone who does modded career I only make ships with one of two speeds, really really fast and stationary

[winter tree]

so factories become basically useless?

thats not good

[glacial jetty]

having ships thay slow should get punished real fast I think there should be a weak kite at low level for each faction that goes like 75-80 m/s backwards, with low firepower, just to tell the player "hey that's a strategy you need to prepare for"

using ions or a rail for mono I guess.

[median burrow]

do rammers work under 100k

[granite bay]

Uhhh

autoram doesnt really

[granite bay]

Monolith has one at least

[glacial jetty]

try to setup your autoram on a megaroid

like the biggest megaroid ever

[grand granite]

No way, it feels like every third ship i see is almost UL

And every other one is an armor brick

[granite bay]

i have never seen a career noob make a UL

[glacial jetty]

yeah they make elongated dreadnoughts. MRT is actually amazing for newbies

[granite bay]

Yeah pretty much

most players are probably inspired by star wars or other sci fi with irl navy-esque designs

[unreal mesa]

long battleship with 3 dcs that cant fire at the same time

[glacial jetty]

yeah that's the ship my friend made and I converted into a hauler cuz it became too expensive to repair

[deep sorrel]

tbh, i will prob play at 2x speed now :L

[polar halo]

this is literally true, gifted a friend cosmoteer, one of the first ships he showed me had 6DCs, in 2 lines of 3

[rough flint]

simple solution to this whole problem is wait for air to have more free time and fix everything with a mod

simple as

[rough flint]

did you play at 1x speed before?

[deep sorrel]

i usually play at 1x speed all the time

especially career

[rough flint]

when i was a noob i made stuff like this mostly

[rough flint]

yeah, then 2x speed would be closest to what you're used to

[deep sorrel]

:L

[unreal mesa]

if anyone is interested in testing how exactly the new changes feel in pvp i am hosting on preview

[unreal mesa]

yep me no like

[rough flint]

why uou no like

more words and reasoning pls

[glacial jetty]

We don't enjoy the game when we play the preview

what reasoning do you want

Especially when it doesn't achieve all goals that it tries to achieve.

It makes players play in a uneasy middle between old x1/2 and x1

Elim players seem to not enjoy it

Career players like me certainly don't enjoy it

and we have little inputs from newbies

Some isolated people do like it

like you

and the devs

maybe

And it might make co-op better though trying this with a friend we still preferred the old system

Again because combats were too long and ships too sluggish

We proposed ideas to help newbies

And now you're asking for a reasoning ?

If you like that feature so much mod it into the game

That's what people told me on multiple of my suggestions

[pastel moon]

@tidal gazelle

drags you

[tidal gazelle]

ty

i couldnt find it

[rough flint]

and some isolated people don't like it - what's your point?

[rough flint]

i am

[uneven citrus]

Maybe if it in the end doesn't get implemented, we can ask the devs to post exact settings to make it possible.

[unreal mesa]

ive already provided my reasoning for not liking this update multiple times

[tidal gazelle]

i do recall he put his reasons on excelsior

[glacial jetty]

It's more than isolated people that don't like it

[rough flint]

"my terrible dataset is better than your terrible dataset"

[rough flint]

wouldn't hurt to repost or link to it again

[unreal mesa]

im over it atp you can give it a try in pvp, im sure youll hate it too as its basically exactly what you hate as it makes the speed meta worse and more annoying

[cloud plume]

What if instead of slowing the game down by 50% you slow it down to 75%? Still makes it slower but nowhere near as slow.

[winter tree]

https://tenor.com/view/meonly-gif-19710542

It would be slowing down by 25%, not 75%

[tired minnow]

They probably meant making the speed 0.75x speed not 75% slower

[cloud plume]

Yeah, to, sorry

[tidal rapids]

I have yet to try the preview, but to comment before trying it I'm satisfied with the 1/2 speed standard for Elimination, and really don't think it needs to be changed

[vocal portal]

So if I understand correctly, you're saying that the speed meta is worse because the maximum speed difference between ships is greater, and that outweighs the impact of the effective doubling of projectile speed relative to ship acceleration?

[vocal portal]

when it could really easily be solved without this
Please explain to me how my reasons 1-5 in my original post (pinned) could be easily solved in another way. If you really have easy ways to solve all of those, I would be incredibly grateful.

[vocal portal]

Making star systems smaller would have other repercussions though. Assuming weapon and sight ranges stayed the same, it'd feel a lot more crowded with overlapping battles and such. (Back before the Steam release when we were doing beta tests for it, we tested smaller star systems and the general sentiment was they were too crowded.) It would also be much much worse for performance (assuming total quantity of ships/objects is the same) because the game would have to load and simulate roughly 4x as many things at once.

[rough flint]

true, but i think fixing mp balance is a different issue

[rough flint]

imo:

Reducing the speed of combat should make combat easier to follow for new players.
this is true, and i think the easiest way would just to be to make 1x speed 1/2 speed by halving *every* speed

Many players (including most PvP players) prefer to play at 1/2 speed, which is fine, but all of the animations and VFX are designed to be viewed at 1x speed. We're hoping that with this change, most players (including PvP players) will default to playing at 1x speed instead of 1/2 speed, which should make the game feel better and is a more naturally intuitive default speed.
see above

In our testing, this greatly reduces the amount of speed-changing in co-op.
i think there are better ways to fix this - increase the speed of passive, boring activities that are typically done at 8x speed, up to the point where it becomes a combat balance concern
as for travel time, which is harder to fix, a mini ftl jump that can go anywhere in the map, that first knocks out all systems for ~5 sec and stuns all crew for a further ~7 sec would be a way that i would fix it - jump is after 5 sec

Hopefully high ship speed will less "meta", especially in PvP.
i think pvp balance is a completely different issue for another rework

Halving combat speed also allows us to halve the physics and simulation tick rate, which in theory should be a big boost to performance.
see above

if there is no combat balance concern for a non-combat activity that is always done at 8x, then it is just wasting player time usually, and is not very interesting to do either

[vocal portal]

this is true, and i think the easiest way would just to be to make 1x speed 1/2 speed by halving every speed
Yeah, and that's what we'd do if it didn't have the negative effect of slowing down travel time and other non-combat activities.

[rough flint]

why does non-combat time cost matter? it's done at 8x always anyways, except for maybe delivery missions

[vocal portal]

because back when the max speed was 4x people constantly complained about travel times, which is why i added 8x

[rough flint]

i think there is no way to fix travel time concerns to make it feasible at 1x in coop without adding some form of teleportation

[gusty eagle]

(I mean ftl beacons do exist)

[granite bay]

from my perspective, it would be much easier to halve everything speedwise, make systems smaller, and balance the enemy/quest density from there

[rough flint]

they are not common enough to use regularly

[gusty eagle]

I mean the player part version

[rough flint]

when travelling from mission target to mission target or from station to mission target, it is almost always by flying

[gusty eagle]

It's a problem in singleplayer though

[rough flint]

well you still need to fly there lol

[vocal portal]

as for travel time, which is harder to fix, a mini ftl jump that can go anywhere in the map, that first knocks out all systems for ~5 sec and stuns all crew for a further ~7 sec would be a way that i would fix it - jump is after 5 sec
This sounds like it would have a ton of unintended repercussions. It would be a very major new game mechanic.

[rough flint]

true

almost no ship would ever want to power off all systems for 5 sec with no way to recover in combat - that is enough to die, especially once ai becomes smart enough to flank and hit unarmored sides

maybe also decrease pen resist of every part of the ship too, if combat jumping is a concern

[vocal portal]

i think pvp balance is a completely different issue for another rework
It's a different issue yeah, but I do see an opportunity to do them together, because one of the things that I like about reducing combat speed is that it provides an opportunity to increase projectile speed relative to ships. I don't want to increase projectile speeds themselves because that would make them harder to see/follow and make battles less visually interesting, but if ship speed gets reduced, then that's effectively the same thing. So that's the opportunity I see here.

[vocal portal]

None of us are saying this "fixes" co-op speed issues. But we are saying that in our testing, it makes the issues much less frequent.

Let's not let perfection be the enemy of improvement.

[vocal portal]

I answered above why we can't make systems smaller.

[balmy schooner]

would that perhaps be how the blink drive would work?

its like a set distance but you dont need a beacon

[vocal portal]

I do want to be very clear: WE WILL NOT BE RELEASING THIS EXPERIMENTAL PREVIEW AS-IS!!! Clearly the max speed "increase" is causing more issues than we were hoping. We'll need to figure out some other way of accomplishing the goals without causing those issues.

[vocal portal]

I've always imagined that blink drives would be very short range. (Like sight range.)

[granite bay]

I understand but wouldn’t it be possible to shrink systems and also have fewer enemies and quests within them so as to not cause issues

[jaunty surge]

hmmm maybe the travel time reduction could be more career specific? ex: nebulas that generate in sort of lanes which have the effect of half or less drag players can use to get around faster

[vocal portal]

Sure but now you're talking about a much bigger change to the general balancing and pace of career mode.

[granite bay]

it just seems like an easier thing to adjust to me than to separate ship acceleration from top speed

just an idear

[vocal portal]

Yeah maybe! "Lanes" are an interesting idea, though might be hard to make work with the AI.

[balmy hatch]

Perhaps travel time issues could be fixed by giving the player stuff to do while traveling, like reading news

[unreal mesa]

lol

[vocal portal]

cosmoteer radio stations??

[balmy hatch]

Honestly

Broadcast missions

[granite bay]

oh yeah that reminds me of a game i got recently called X4 foundations, where there are basically 3 sizes of space highways, big ones for travel across the star system, then 2 smaller branching ones to get to specific locations faster

[balmy hatch]

New ones that is

[unreal mesa]

gta radio type

[balmy schooner]

that could work for special bountys or random events

[unreal mesa]

i think travel times should be long though

if theyre shorter it would make systems feel even more small and local

[balmy hatch]

Like "hey we got a fugitive at station x if you up for the challenge visit us and we'll give you instructions"

[unreal mesa]

maybe if these highways were implemented system size could be increased

[balmy schooner]

like you pick up a signal of some pirates harrassing a civilan and if you go over and make them stop the civilan gives you somethinf,

or +reputation

[balmy hatch]

Ehh that would be a mission tied to a location and you'd only increase the density of missions that way

Just broadcasting new missions that are available makes you think about your next move while chilling and travelling to a station

[balmy schooner]

emergancy brodcasts or things like a comet or meteorite shower headed some way

[balmy hatch]

Ehh that still makes you take action

My intention is to just make you think

[jaunty surge]

alternate idea of this: cluster objects in the same system around a certain spot like minisystems, and in the middle of each add a hyperspace beacon so you can jump there and get to them easily
maybe doing a couple missions in one area would have stations reveal the beacons of another area?

or maybe make the core of activity stations themselves

hyperspace beacons could be where most pirate activity is

[winter tree]

#3 is never going to actually be solved unless we get some sort of local/system-wide only speed changer.
#1 is likely also not going to be solved- projectile speeds stay the same, and now you are stuck between a fine speed for slower people (1/2x), a fine speed for most people currently (1x), and yet get neither of the benefits. Ships also are harder to control which would turn players off more.

Imo this is better solved by tutorials pointing out the mechanic- it is there for a reason, after all.

Animations I have no idea, but from what I have heard they look significantly worse at 2x then 1/2x, and this would be better solved by having a setting to choose whether animations follow the current speed or are just 1x.

As it has been outlined before, this simply makes the speed meta worse, not better- and imma be real idfk how to solve speed meta but it isnt this

[balmy hatch]

The station could offer the faction's beacon if the mission is far away (and near the beacon) and you have a good reputation

Ofc you don't need to use it

[glacial jetty]

system-wide only speed changer isn't a big issue, eve-online does it and it's a MMO

(to convince the devs)

[polar halo]

that and the ships that go that fast are some of the ones most benefited by the projectile speed increase, yes.

[polar halo]

a way to implement them could be to have currents through nebulae

that makes them less of a free 'this route is faster' due to the particular hazards of the nebula types (possible pirate ambushes in gas, nerfed reactors and no hyperjumping in electrons, ions)

[vocal portal]

#3 and #1 are the things that I'm actually most confident this solves improves, because they are the things that we have experimentally tested and verified.

[polar halo]

but still has the potential to drastically reduce travel time, for those that will take that risk

[near herald]

As far as I understand it, most ships that don't kite aren't moving at their top speed during most battles, because they may be dodging and maneuvering rather than going in a single linear direction really fast, so I guess by increasing projectile velocity, it's really debuffing everything except kiting ships?

Because most ships cannot utilize the top speed increase during battle?

[polar halo]

sorta

kiting ships aren't really the problem

kites haven't been meta in PVP for ages, if ever

it's the more hit&run style of ships (predominantly UL nukes) that are the issue

[near herald]

But regardless the issue is that the proposed changes are not a simple 1:1 change but adversely affect most ships more than others?

whether or not anything is meta or not

[stoic mauve]

ul nuke is a well disguised nuke kite

[polar halo]

pretty much, yeah

[jaunty surge]

it seems like meta ships dont struggle at slowing down when traveling at very high speeds at all, you'd think that would be a drawback with monothrust

[polar halo]

balance in elim pvp is intrinsically tied to speed (hence the speed meta) so anything that affects speed will affect balance

and a drastic change to speed, like this update, will have drastic affects on balance

[polar halo]

yeah, thrust feathering makes it a non-issue for ships with higher thrust

but then that same feathering allows so many ship types to be useful, so entirely removing it would nuke all except like 2 archetypes

not to mention have rather suboptimal affects on AI piloting

[jaunty surge]

i think removal of feathering might allow for room in different applications of speeds for ships (and maybe allow removal of exponential drag) such as building for speed actually having the implication of your ship be based around speed instead of "go faster = better"

[polar halo]

without a substantial change to how controls are done for all forms of movement (ai, RTS orders, and direct control) that'd lead to most ships being borderline uncontrollable

i will also say: i believe some degree of speed meta is ultimately good for the competitive side of the game

a dynamic, fast-paced combat is a lot more fun than '2 bricks shoot at each other for 10 minutes'

but combat is getting a bit too fast-paced with how the speed meta's been developing since the MRT buff, and this preview increases the pace even more

it's genuinely hard to keep up with, especially for a new zealander like me (ping):)

i'll say it again, i think ~80 to ~150m/s (in non-preview 1/2x speed or equivalent) should be the 'elim speed range', with ships any faster than 160 being more gimmicks than universally useful archetypes

i don't know exactly what to change to get to that point, but i do think that getting to that point will make an elim pvp experience that is fun, varied, and fast-paced without being overwhelming

[balmy hatch]

What about decreasing weapon accuracy the faster you are? (With the effect lasting for a little bit even if you suddenly stop moving at all)

Sure you can still do hit and run but the hit part of it wouldn't be certain

[pastel moon]

this should be pinned

@past field

[polar halo]

the main weapon used at those high speeds are nukes and HE missiles, with some cannons often added on as a backup for if the ultralight ship manages to ram onto the sides or rear in a safe spot

[polar halo]

with nuke flinging, HE homing, and cannons being used at point-blank, accuracy isn't an issue

[pulsar skiff]

my proposal is to remove the ability to feather on all thrusters but mrt, or at least half the rampup for each thruster whenever you try to feather them

so instead of being able to permathrust and not care about bleeding speed theres slightly more of a noticeable rampup now

[polar halo]

ah, so make MRTs even more of the only option for monothrust ships

[pulsar skiff]

mrt's can be feathered for conveniences sake, but not too much like all the others

mrt is also pretty logistics heavy and fragile (one component gone severely impacts the performance of the whole thruster) so the drawbacks balance it in my opinion

or, like the secondary proposal, thrusters lose half their ramped up thrust when you try to feather them

[polar halo]

it really doesn't in pvp

[polar halo]

this would be an interesting change

[pulsar skiff]

so repeatedly turning with a huge thruster would make it lose half rampup with each time it gets shut off

100% goes to 50% thrust

50% goes to 25% thrust

so on so forth

kind of demands you to commit to your action if you're playing something like a UL; bleed some speed or just do it

for anything else, the outcome is uncertain

[polar halo]

it would certainly hurt ULs, that's for sure

i am wondering how playable monothrust in general would be

but it's worth trying

@pastel moon apologies for the ping, but is something like this possible to mod in?

[pulsar skiff]

if it reduces the presence of UL's slightly, i'd say its a worthy sacrifice to be made

[pastel moon]

ramp-down?

in technicality yes
ramp down doesn't exist in vanilla because it messes with RTS controls and ai ships

[polar halo]

my interpretation of it is that feathering works the same as current, except restarting the thruster while still in the grace period sets your rampup level to half of the current level, rather than keeping the rampup level the same

[pastel moon]

not sure

[pulsar skiff]

this is just what i explained

[pastel moon]

dont think its that possible

[weary wren]

MRT balance doesn’t really seem related to this half speed preview.

[pulsar skiff]

tbh the lore implications of such a thing can be like "if you turn off an engine while its running will it return to the same speed immediately after shortly turning back on?"

[rough flint]

no - this would be a completely different system entirely for career convenience (since it is just a time saver, it would have no cost other than having a funcitonal ship)

[rough flint]

well the engine is still spinning very fast, it takes a while to spool down

[rough flint]

fake resource through proxy while firing thrust (we will call this antifuel) -> constant production of another fake resource (we will call this antiramp) -> all engines can process antifuel+antiramp together and destroy both -> when antiramp is present, temporarily swap to a different fake thruster that is 1/2 as strong

that is my thinking of how to make it now, in a jank way

[pastel moon]

dang

[rough flint]

actually just make thrusters have an antiramp consumer that unpushes

it's probably possible already

[pastel moon]

i think the tick rate might be better kept at 30

[gloomy granite]

Wow🫡 I wish it was explained like that from the beginning. Well done 👍

[rough flint]

i don't think this is true btw - even in classic, which is practically 1/4x speed of current (non preview modern), ships went about 70 modern speed and that was the standard speed

[remote wind]

Career not having a RoD is a massive difference. If you start hosting competitive games on the largest settings with no asteroids then results start changing

[weary wren]

Did the RoD speed change for this preview?

[pastel moon]

rod speed is the same i think

change your size settings ig

[polar halo]

true, but the discussion at the time was about pvp stuff, so i was talking about things in a standard pvp context

[uneven citrus]

Thing is, most Career railkites can kill majority of the slower, unprepared built-in ships so quickly that even if there was a RoD at say, outer end of the planet generation, most players wouldn't ever interract with it.

[tired minnow]

What about putting ion storms beyond the edge of the system generation?

It wouldn't really fix railkites though for the reason nick mentioned, and even if for some reason it did take that long, a bit of strafe thrust makes it a non-issue

[uneven citrus]

Speaking of which, it would be cool if Ion Storm did indeed have some benefit, maybe one of the ion bolts hitting your ship have a low chance of ionizing and generating a new unique resource (I saw a suggestion similar to this with turning on the boost thruster in a yellow cloud) that could be a cool thing to have an incentive to build storm wanderers and venture within the hostile environment, just like with sundivers.

[tired minnow]

Or simply that rare asteroids would generate more frequently inside them

[median burrow]

seems like a decent idea even if it’s just to make the world border something to avoid

[tired minnow]

it would also make the world border a bit more interesting and if you wanted to, say, make a silly unreachable base you could put it out in the ion storm

idk it seems like it'd be more fun than it sounds like

also, it would help with counterplay to built-in kites to some degree

[pastel moon]

i dont think it would be a good idea

severely

[tired minnow]

why not?

[pastel moon]

i'm not sure

apart from something about modding

cant really say it within words

[uneven citrus]

Maybe just hide a shielded base within an ion storm and make it have every defence platform be storm-proof as well.

Storm wars would be very cool, disruptor and EMP would be the strongest weapon.

Maybe ion storm could have a secondary effect where neither sides can do damage to each other, but shields can be damaged with battery removing weapons!

[tacit knot]

I like that idea but how laggy would it be? I know people struggle with nebulae as is

-# also this feels very unrelated to the half speed lol

[winter canyon]

so much funny stuff could be put on the news

like, plague inc style

[glacial jetty]

omg great idea

police channel, music, news

military channels could make players learn about bounties on non-criminal ships that aren't shown at stations !

[pastel moon]

too out of place tbh

unless its just text

[pulsar skiff]

solution : make it only appear at stations

[cloud plume]

But then it’s basically just the station window. Radio is supposed to be broadcast into space, available even far away from stations.

But yeah the text only solution seems like a good idea. Maybe it’s like in the news where text slowly runs along the bottom of the screen.

[alpine jasper]

Could be interesting if there were actual broadcast stations you could find, maybe pirates could be broadcasting on specific channels and of you tune into one you can locate the pirate base, rather then just accepting a mission and knowing basically exactly where it is

[rustic sable]

I absolutely love the idea of flavor text scrolling across a small portion of the screen or even just in a small menu somewhere

"18 hours ago, 527 crew of the SS Centurion were confirmed dead due to an accidental explosive charge firing, leading to a chain reaction of multiple ammo storage detonations"

"Update: Colonization of newly discovered Ursa Minor system has seen delays due to unforseen volcanic eruptions on planet thought geologically inactive"

any flavor is better than no flavor

[alpine jasper]

though im still only in the 2nd system, i do like i can fight at 1x speed

[swift venture]

Tbh the game always, especially when bounty hunter was still around felt way to fast paced, my friend and I would often play with 0,5 or 0,25 x like years ago, not BCS of fps rather BCS of being able to actually overview and control things

[balmy hatch]

Updates on bounty region movement too

[uneven citrus]

Unfinished but it's funny.

[cloud plume]

If we get radio Stations we also need radio Towers!

[pastel moon]

truly very combat on the speed

experimenting on the preview

[uneven citrus]

Realistically this build in cosmoteer universe would be 4x4 block with three jutting out structure lines because ✨ top down ✨
Also no need for guys because space :>

[uneven citrus]

well you see, Radio towers, immobile as they are, completely avoid the thruster balance changes, thus the perfect way to counter the new meta it'll bring!
genius!

[cloud plume]

Maybe it just shared the same fate as the original, except that in space it wouldn’t really collapse and instead just… well… rotate 90°.

[uneven citrus]

Lol yes.

No buckling here...

[pulsar skiff]

rain world rot makes me want to think this is part of the comms array of an ||iterator superstructure||

but this is still really cool

[balmy hatch]

it's so cool rain world is also experimenting with half combat speed

[pulsar skiff]

so real

literally just eating mushrooms

[uneven citrus]

I have no idea what any of that means but thanks I guess.

[pulsar skiff]

you'll understand when you research about rain world

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/958418404769943572/1055863560842006578/boof2.gif

[pastel moon]

nope

[uneven citrus]

I am only interested in Train world, so no c:

---

Woopsie off topic

[uneven citrus]

---

Real question is, how half is the combat speed experiment snapshot?

[vocal portal]

Hey folks, let's try to keep this thread on-topic, thanks.

[uneven citrus]

Got it.

[fickle phoenix]

I have a reasonably off topic question, can you make audio not increase drastically when time speeds up? There are a bunch of ship sounds that are annoying as heck at 8x. Like one is a dripping pipe. Teleporting sounds ridiculous. Maybe speed up sounds by 1.1x, not 8x. No one wants chipmunks in space.

[pastel moon]

i don't think that would make sense

[fickle phoenix]

Obviously, the sound would speed up 8x if time was faster. Speed-up sound is higher pitch and higher pitch sounds are often more annoying. It doesn't impact gameplay at all. It's ok if it's little higher pitch, it just shouldn't be 8x

[alpine jasper]

#1019739575683399840

[valid patrol]

Not reasonable

[cloud plume]

What if sped up sound was pitched down so it doesn’t sound as chipmunk-y.

[pastel moon]

i should try editing stats again on preview

[winter canyon]

it fell over

[uneven citrus]

Just like the Warsaw radio mast 😔

[brittle dew]

well railgun kiting is harder but not awful

[uneven citrus]

Guys we should make it so that in career backwards thrusters instantly explode on ships that have a railgun.

XD

[pastel moon]

i wonder
if half dps would work instead of half firerate... hmm

[uneven citrus]

Half fire rate still means half dps though?
You probably mean raw physically damage being halved.

[pastel moon]

[winter canyon]

?

did you ping me in the wrong thing

[tacit knot]

This would be interesting to see, though shields would need a nerf I imagine. That or Emp and electro become much more important if not necessary

[rough flint]

half d instead of double s

[unreal mesa]

who up halving they combat speed experimental preview

[jolly flare]

clearly the problem is combat is too slow
double the speed of combat

[pastel moon]

still waiting for substaintial feedback from people here

[glacial jetty]

we should host a x1 speed tournament

[unreal mesa]

everything that couldve been said has already been said

[raw locust]

Is the preview still avaliable? The passwords doesnt seem to work for me

[weary wren]

Where did you type the password “previewpreview”?

[raw locust]

It that the wrong place?

[glacial jetty]

maybe it expired

[weary wren]

Definetely seems right, though the code works for a friend

[vocal portal]

I have not taken down the preview build. Not sure why Steam is giving you that error.

Any chance you've already unlocked it?

[stoic mauve]

Did you check the code then in the top left switch to the new version?

[raw locust]

Thanks for the replies, and the answer is......

... turn it off and turn it on again! The cure to all IT problems.

[balmy schooner]

sounds about right....

[weary wren]

I played a Domination multiplayer match of the preview with a friend of mine a couple days ago, and I have to say - it just feels right. The combat didn't feel sluggish at all, it felt just right in terms of response time. Non-combat things remaining the same speed also felt right as I could send my ships to far away CPs in a reasonable amount of time. I don't have any major complaints, at least none that I can think of at the moment.

I'm not a competitive meta player, this is coming from a more casual Cosmoteer player. This update seems to work well to me, looking forward to seeing it fully released!

[thick anchor]

Thanks for trying it out and giving feedback!

[weary wren]

Glad to! This really helps, features like this are really useful! I particularly enjoyed FTL drives in multiplayer as well! 🙂

[tired portal]

I'm going to have to try this and see if it fixes slow down