The new ships and their soullessness

[hard trail]

So for the last few months I have been noticing a change I believe to be generally negative.
Old ships are quickly being replaced by newer ships that are more combat effective and quote unquote better aesthetically (we will get to this.)

I believe this to be, well, bad. These new meta ships often lack any of the fun of the older ships, not to mention raise the difficulty a lot especially with ship designs later on being often overly brutal. Competitive designs make their way in on ships like Monolith's Destructor flagship, which has become my new least favourite ship due to it featuring a tactic that is blatantly unimmersive for Career.

The focus on missiles later with everyone but Cabal where it is outlawed specifically is uninteresting and very overpowered, requiring fleets of specialized anti-missile ships instead of the sane requirement of a flagship with a decent amount of PD and flak.
THIS. IS. NOT. ENJOYABLE. TO. FIGHT. AGAINST.

Aesthetics.
The new paint/design styles lack any of the fun or unique vibe of the current styles. Destructor, Emancipator, and Kingslayer for example all are heartless ships that have no unique appearance and lack more than basic resemblance to the soul of their origin faction. Neither of the first two have any of the oddities of old Monolith and I couldn't tell you Kingslayer was a hobbled together piece of junk if you threatened to stab me.

Yes, in the end, I personally would rather fight older, weaker ships with more personality and a better difficulty curve than see them slaughtered for "combat effectiveness".
Can Opener we will miss you forever o7

This was a passionate rant from a Career lover basically here to ask this "revolution" of ships to cease at once. Bring back their souls.

[brazen mason]

Honestly I see where you are coming from, I don’t believe that getting rid of all of the new, ‘competitive’ ships is correct. More so a balance is needed, there will be people who want a bigger challenge, this that want to enjoy and immerse in the soul of the ships they fight, or those that don’t care.
There is room for soul in even the most formidable vessel, it’s just depends.

[dense kettle]

I agree heavily, the main fun of career is not even to fight hard to defeat ships, it's self-imposed difficulties

I do not have the fun looking of looking at build-ins to get a grasp on pretty design and hull shapes

[vivid ember]

I really hope this gets the attention it deserves, I've noticed this trend too and, being a pvp player myself, it pains me to see pvp-esc ships increasingly spill over into career, seeing how the skill floor for pvp is absurudly high even barring the piloting requirement, not to mention the extreme ugliness of recent pvp ships cough ultralights cough

I'm fine with seeing things like ion cruisers in the game since they're "off-meta" pvp wise and can be made into ships that are aesthetically super cool but we do not need fucking MISSILE STICKS cough augustus cough

Waiting for corpo to get in here and rant about flamepincer, so here's a side by side of the old and new versions

Bring back flamepincer

[dense kettle]

And there's are ways to make a powerful yet prettiest ship, see Lancea Libertatis

[violet kettle]

agreed

[edgy spire]

just implement the unused difficulty 1-3 system

it's separate from threat level

[vivid ember]

Lancea Libertatis, for those unaware

[shadow atlas]

I was going to mention this

[edgy spire]

WOKE opinion: i like the new ships and their combat effectiveness

[shadow atlas]

I definitely agree with OP regarding the statement about what caeer is supposed to entail. One of the ships I find are too common are railkiters, which are not particularly fun to have to engage with regularly.

I think the new ships look really good, but they are clearly build more about being efficient killing machines (which itself is not unreconcilable) and a general lack of (maybe wacky) inefficient but more unique looking ships that are a bit more wacky or provide more diversity to the existing ship pool.

[edgy spire]

i think the lategame ships should be efficient to challange the player just like earlygame you see a fanged fighter
but railkiters for example are ehh

[dense kettle]

If this trend is going to continue i'd want atleast more design contest

[shadow atlas]

To be clear, I don't think existing ships would need to be removed or anything.
I do agree with the flamepincer but tbh I like both designs and both will keep on existing in one of my own mods so I will keep encountering them.
But I do like the old flamepincer having the wacky forward facing missile launcher and it brings something a bit more unique to the table.

[edgy spire]

add squib from oem and add the appropriate AI and let them spawn on level 1 systems

[shadow atlas]

I agree, but I also believe that even late game has room for more wacky designs (think All For One or Banshee or something).

[brazen mason]

Take inspiration from the sovereign class (not Cosmo yes but the principle remains), formidable in combat but elegant asf

[dense kettle]

The architects are completely locking that behind a wall of ice, inactivity and lack of transparancy, while design contest are the main thing that keep build-ins alive

The complete veto given to Blake while hosting official design contests already set the mood.

[vivid ember]

I'll bring up my old opinion that the super meta-esc built-ins, if they're going to be in the game, need to only appear on higher difficulties

[edgy spire]

can we get a way to have multiple ships of the same name so older builtins exist

[shadow atlas]

This one looks very unique, which I like 🙂

[vivid ember]

Like, wtf is this

Why is it in my ensign difficulty

[shadow atlas]

It seems to be possible with defensive platforms? But I don't know how to do this using mods as it will always crash for me whenever a duplicate name is used (which is one of the reasons I add A,B or C to the nomenclature).

[edgy spire]

this looks cool to fight against

[edgy spire]

probably takes the folder name

[brazen mason]

If I would expect it to be in pvp (comp that is), then personally I don’t think it should be in career

[vivid ember]

i agree, but it would be complete hell for newer players

literal 1.5 mil elim cg rammer

[edgy spire]

on a level 15 sector where the player has a 2x cost ship? :

hmmm

[ember reef]

Yep because most players don't build at the grade of a several year veteran architect

[edgy spire]

Elixias? Evil lixie???

ohmagawd

[shadow atlas]

But if I add a ship in my modded folder that uses a name already used in an ingame ship's name, it will also crash even though the folders are different?

[edgy spire]

that's weird. hmm

there is trickery afoot

[shadow atlas]

I totally agree with this. They all look the same to me, blocks of whateverweapons in front and the same thrusterclusters in the back.

[shadow atlas]

When the game added a ship named Cassiopeia (plz forgive my potential spelling mistakes), I had to rename a ship with the same name my mod already had in it.

[brazen mason]

Yeh, pvp ships built well follow archetypes, so they all look incredibly similar in their category, which is way less diverse and enjoyable

[edgy spire]

despite this the career version of these archetypes look so interesting

like

project mythhyolyir or whatever

it's a morbiter with weird side shields

funky shape

i don't know what to say about much, i personally like how the game does these and i hope it inspires players to learn them

[brazen mason]

They feel more like a sub-type. In that case, still a very competitive ship

[edgy spire]

i think we(i?) should make a different thread about the ship difficulty system instead because this is more about general distaste for the comp-esque ships

[brazen mason]

I feel that this belongs here? Idk

[edgy spire]

organization maybe

and separates from the concept of "comp ship career bad" and "difficulty buttons"

[shadow atlas]

The difficulties (that are currently unused) could kinda solve this, but I think it won't solve the other mainissue in the long run. One other issue is that if only PvP-like meta ships keep getting added (and maybe the wacky more original designs keep getting modified to fit the meta-ish designs), we're gonna end up with a vast majority of brutally efficient (and more similar looking) ships, with only some of the old designs looking more unique.

[edgy spire]

the price to pay for more ships

[shadow atlas]

Why?

There are other options avilable to us

[vivid ember]

That's not a valid point when older ships can simply be left alone as easier ships to fight, if anything that would help with getting more ships

[shadow atlas]

Like someone already mentioned the design contest ships looking more unique, I think adding more of those could alleviate the main issue here.

[vivid ember]

Those are planned to be added in career 2.0 iirc

[shadow atlas]

It is a valid point as older ships are being replaced with the new designs as well

[vivid ember]

Bring back flamepincer

Ya know what, I know who to ping

@flat basalt

[shadow atlas]

Ow, that would be interesting indeed. Where could I find more info on this?

[vivid ember]

?roadmap

[last remnant]

Please check out the Early Access Roadmap! http://roadmap.cosmoteer.net/

[shadow atlas]

So what am I looking for?

[vivid ember]

Wait this isn't it

My bad

I don't actually remember

[edgy spire]

frogor

[flat basalt]

hi why am I here

[edgy spire]

because youre monolith corp o

[flat basalt]

no I'm corpo

[vivid ember]

because i remember you brought up how flamepincer got murdered and you have a really good sense of aesthetics

do you have a list of these similarly soulless ships

just if it already exists

[flat basalt]

I don't have a really good sense of aesthetics but I do hate the new flamepincer with every nano angstrom of my being

[vivid ember]

perfect

[flat basalt]

I can list them off

I don't have a list

[vivid ember]

Go on

[edgy spire]

ping architects you ussies

[flat basalt]

hold on gotta open discord real quick

[edgy spire]

behind back behavior real

[flat basalt]

confirm?
y/n

[vivid ember]

Vilda would probably like to know about this yeah

[edgy spire]

i'm not the one complaining about the designs

[flat basalt]

you suggested it

[edgy spire]

yes

go on honestly

[shadow atlas]

plz gib list 🙂

[edgy spire]

but the people who were discussing are gone for now

[flat basalt]

chapter 1, vilda you should never remake ships ever again

chapter 1.1, vilda you should never remake ships ever again, other people

[hoary tusk]

I've been saying this for a long time now, #make career ships great again

for me the most powerful ships were always supposed to be imp ships but even then they shouldn't be meta (like the dom cannon wall ones that can't even sustain their thrusters and have no hyperdrives)

[vivid ember]

^^^^^^^^^

I'll quickly get those

These are totally inexcusable in my opinion

Like, they got aesthetic-fied but they do not belong as faction ships

[flat basalt]

direct imports

thanks saris

[vivid ember]

i love how the cannons are angled in the official ship files

they're not even straight

[hoary tusk]

also just in case someone says all the creative and fun ideas have been exhausted, I have never seen an alpha emp ship, and that would be a fun thing to encounter imo

[vivid ember]

🔥

[violet kettle]

keep in mind that the architects have a difficult job and that they are doing their best

[hoary tusk]

anyways I need to do something for school so can't talk more yet, will be back later

[flat basalt]

you have to consider ai to ai ship battles

[vivid ember]

it's also possible to not build meta ships

[flat basalt]

you might encounter one without emps

[vivid ember]

they did it before

[violet kettle]

yes but creativity is a fickle and thing

[hoary tusk]

osprey exists, and seeing it without a nuke is rare

[vivid ember]

then at least revert the reworks

[hoary tusk]

anyways me gone

[edgy spire]

the reworks were made for a reason

[flat basalt]

chapter 2, disappointing that these were remade

[edgy spire]

?????

[vivid ember]

not a good reason imo, robtop didn't update stereo madness for a reason

[edgy spire]

they look cool

[shadow atlas]

Yes, I agree. But the old ones looked cool as well but also looked unique

[vivid ember]

besides, non-meta, slightly less combat-capable ships have more room to be interesting

these ships above are just...ships

[edgy spire]

they look just as unique to me but maybe it's pvp player bias on your parts idk

prevention of name conflicts and keeping old ones would be nice

[vivid ember]

corpo is not a pvp player (anymore)

also ???

(name conflict thing is valid though, and i'd like to see old versions at least kept in the files)

[shadow atlas]

These are some of the older designs (but upgraded ones but they should look almost identical to the original versions these were based on).

For ease of comparison

There are more ships that got updated at some point. Most minor, some a bit more extensively.
A couple also got renamed.

[shadow atlas]

I keep older designs in the mods I already use, so for me personally it's not even that much of an issue

though adding only meta ships from now on would be

[edgy spire]

[shadow atlas]

I'm a bit thorn on the ships that have already been added, as I also like the new designs. But I do agree that these new designs are a bit leaning too much on being brutally efficient and difficult to kill while sacrificing their unique blend of traits that are more in line with lore (like Fringe being a trashcan faction of sorts now getting designs that are clearly well thought out and look amazing! But they don't look very fringe to me except for the paintjobs which, again, look amazing).

Personally I'd be ok if the ships that are going to be added in from now are more akin to what the lore of the factions suggest. I don't mind the somewhat less efficient designs (I actually like having unique ridiculous ships in the game (like Banshee, lol)), but I wouldn't want the meta-ish ships already in the game now to be removed either.

And like I said, I will keep encountering the old designs anyway because of the mods that I use, but I can certainly understand this is not as good as an alternative for everyone

[edgy spire]

idk the names of all of the architects but i'll ping them

[flat basalt]

i know them all

[edgy spire]

vilda door hatter oneye immaterium

saris

[flat basalt]

well you got them all

[dense kettle]

cosmopyr 😔

[edgy spire]

@neon current @unreal geyser @fossil osprey @vast lava @glass zephyr @naop (clueless)
heads up since this is about the builtins

[flat basalt]

you overshot

[edgy spire]

top of thread #1247857808066744401 message

[flat basalt]

naop's just your average pvper that went kaput

[hoary tusk]

I'm back for more talky, tho I see most of the important stuff has been mentioned already

Immtrm gonna banish us with a 500 page essay

[edgy spire]

quick!

also hi walt

[hoary tusk]

oh didn't even notice him

watching like jor jor well

[edgy spire]

i haven't seen a ping so i think he entered on his own

[glass zephyr]

It seems that the main complaint is the combat difficulty, huh?

End-game ships usually should be a challenge for players, not something that dies very fast. Regarding Destructor, it's not a even competitive ship by measures of PvP meta for the last year. What exactly wrong with Destructor in your opinion? I'm guess it's mine launchers, but then where complaints of numerous Imperium nuke ships, that teach you the importance of ship movement as nuke dodging?

I can see the problem with missiles in end-game and it's double-edged sword for balance and for aesthetic ships. It seems the main complaint is that there always necessity of specific fleet to deal with missiles, but there are also other ways to deal with them. If you don't want to try or use them or find them also unfun, well, something like "I hate late-game HE missile built-ins" mode would be solution. And if these type of ships would be just deleted from now, it would be not a best solution.
Also Xsnow noticed Lancea Libertatis as a pretty and powerful ship in one bottle, but this aesthetic carried by missiles. "Is it fun?" or "It has soul or it's soulless?" Kingslayer also carried by missiles.

Aesthetics
It's a bit a subjective first of all, especially something like "personality" or "soul". I can't see what wrong with Emancipator and Kingslayer (maybe Vilda knows?) Destructor already has updated version from aesthetic side and should appear in the next update.
What about replacing already existing old ships by their updated versions, it's indeed a subtle process. Personally, I'd leave couple of them unchanged but it's prerogative of their author.

.
.
Difficulty modes with the appearance of different ships sounds interesting, but needs more discussion. And about difficulty...
"If you want win with more casual ships, just lower the difficulty" But then it will not teach you how to build and play well, because it's just strong ships with decreased stats.
If lower difficulty not decreases stats of ships but instead replaces strong designs with weaker ones, then it is the same problem, but it's better than experience distortion while stats are modified in classic way +hp -dmg etc.

[glass zephyr]

I can't see how design contests keeps built-ins alive. Especially if it's not a faction DCs.

[edgy spire]

when i initially meant by difficulty it's that unused 1-3 value on builtin's rules files

(i believe)

[copper cloud]

I think that's what Immaterium mentions in the very last paragraph, but I could be wrong.
also: Bring back Can Opener!

[edgy spire]

i think it was edited? i cannot make sure

[hoary tusk]

I think the main issue is that even if ships look good and are strong (this is good, don't get me wrong (unless abusing the speed meta, I hate current kiters and rammers)), they aren't unique. What I love about the first system ships is that all of them use weapons and armor in a different way, intead of late game armor brick, shield and DC/missile spam, best acompanied by turning it into a boring kiter.

I think the focus rn should be on creating interesting and unique ships instead of strong ones (tho if you combine the two then you're amazing)

the new ships could either be left in or temporarily removed until they're reworked

also a simple way to increase difficulty would be to have more enemy ships, tho that (and most of this thread too) requires smarter ai and might impact performance slightly

[copper cloud]

or like jani said, given "ship difficulty = 3" and spawned less often than lower diff ships, unless you play on high campaign difficulty setting ig

[glass zephyr]

Just added two dots to separate paragraph

[edgy spire]

makes sense

[edgy spire]

that's called getting visionary on excelsior

[glass zephyr]

It's strange how everyone define "unique" in their own way. From your statement I guess for you "uniqueness" is non-meta (and usually not strong) ships?

[edgy spire]

i think unique in fighting style but thats very broad of a term

[hoary tusk]

a ship can be both unique and strong, but it's hard to pull off

for me unique is anything that will make the ship stay in my brain

a strong ship can be unique, tho only if the strenght is a rare sight

most new ships aren't unique in anything so I don't remember most of them

[glass zephyr]

Fighting style of most existing built-ins is just "shoot face to face". Definitely more unique than auto-orbiting, of course, of course. While AI 2.0 doesn't exists there only archetypically-defined (ship type, combo of weapons and etc) fighting style can be.

[hoary tusk]

I think what's more important is how you fight the ship instead of how the ship fights

[glass zephyr]

If all ships are unique, then no ship is unique. It's impossible. And for "great uniqueness" of some rare ships there are necessity in less unique ships...

[hoary tusk]

ofc not every single ship can be unique to everyone

[glass zephyr]

It's all connected

[hoary tusk]

if you play using cannons you will face different challenges, with some ship fights being more memorable than others, but if you use lasers the uniqueness of each ship is different

[dense kettle]

I don't think the goal of the game is to learn but have fun. Mount and Blade Warband is a great exemple of what cool difficulty levels are like in a sandbox adventure game.

[dense kettle]

Because it offer the possibility of creations and innovations to people far beyond the four "elite" architects.

[hoary tusk]

I think one thing that particularly stuck out for me when playing the demo for the first time was that some ships were easy while other ships used every weakness of my ship against me

[dense kettle]

Look at cosmoteer classic for exemple

Most ships are eye striking because they all won a community vote and are among the most appealing aesthetically, that give contrast to the architect rush for efficency and balance.

[hoary tusk]

there's no need to make ships good at everything and be a basic built-in, play rock paper scissors with the ships (as well as other things, this is just one part of being unique)

[flat basalt]

oh boy it's him

[glass zephyr]

Game balance already is rock-paper-scissors. There is no ships that good in everything and has no weaknesses.

[edgy spire]

hi vilda ³

[hoary tusk]

ehh it just feels like meta rock paper scissors, not career rock paper scissors

keep in mind casual players make casual ships

[neon current]

Agree with Immaterium, the newer ships are a lot more varied and unique than the original early-modern ones were. The "super meta" ships are all counterable and fill a niche that was previously absent from career. Generally, I think built-ins should:

• get harder as the game goes on
• be varied enough that no single player ship can trivially beat them all (without a massive price advantage or complex piloting)

[glass zephyr]

Ships from DCs are all different and it's kinda the point. As the point of distincted style of official factions. Of course at the background of built-in ships ships of design contests will look brighter.

[hoary tusk]

hmm what would you define as unique

[neon current]

I feel like a lot of the more experienced members in this server also significantly underestimate the skill and adaptability of the typical career-only player.

[edgy spire]

indeed]

[hoary tusk]

ehh there is a lot of reviews complaining about "bugged" rammers and kiters I've heard

[neon current]

Things like Mistilteinn or the new mine ships. Basically anything new that isn't already in career.

I mean, I like Destructor a lot, but I don't see how it's any more "meta" than Shesto or Alexander.

[late sage]

i try to add both combat effectiveness and looking cool to my ships
i wont make many sacrifices for aesthetics though

[glass zephyr]

It's matter of time as AI 2.0 is not introduced and current AI can't hadle with rammers or kiters ideally.

[hoary tusk]

I feel like it should be the opposite, maybe not for aesthetics per se but the strength of ships shouldn't be a priority

it's great when it is strong but it inherently doesn't have to be

[edgy spire]

making mines great again

[neon current]

I genuinely don't see how someone could think ships with offensive mines are "less unique"

[hoary tusk]

the mine ships are cool yes, overall the most recent ships are unique enough I think, tho some still feel too meta, like Qin Shi Huang with it's giant armor brick in the front and nuke spam

[edgy spire]

thats normal imperium barge, actually normal ship behaivour wdym

😭

[neon current]

That literally hasn't been meta for years. Actual "meta" ships are impossible for the AI to pilot, since they're way too fragile and require precise piloting.

[echo pulsar]

“Soulless” isnt a valid critique of ship design. I dont think theyve gone too far into meta brick syndrome aside from a few designs. My personal gripe is simply that i dislike new monolith specifically

The style looks so boring now

So many ships look technically fine but really just copy paste patterns and look boring overall

[edgy spire]

its corporate and it looks unique to me specifically i can't really see what people are talking about

[hoary tusk]

normal, yes, but not unique, it's boring trying to chew through the armor while a bunch of nukes keep increasing the repair cost

[hoary tusk]

by meta I don't mean current meta, sorry for the confusion

I just mean boring design that's also strong

[edgy spire]

• "be varied enough that no single player ship can trivially beat them all (without a massive price advantage or complex piloting)"

[echo pulsar]

Old monolith had a far more unique form factor and most ships looked kinda different, almost every ship in the newolith style looks pretty boring and the same

No offense

Theyre still aesthetically fine

But i feel like as people polished the monolith style they kinda also made it excessively formulaic

[hoary tusk]

arbiter my beloved, most shaped monolith ship

[edgy spire]

"no offense" 😭 that doesnt change the meaning

[echo pulsar]

Didnt intend it to. I mean what i said

[neon current]

There's only two active architects now. Previously Monolith had the most amount of contributors out of all the factions, I think.

[echo pulsar]

I dont care about combat difficulty myself either

I think its fine aside from how random chance plays much more a role in how hard missions are now, which will probably be ironed out soon

[edgy spire]

more debate less arguing if possible

[echo pulsar]

Is the argument in the room with us right now

[hoary tusk]

yeah it sucks, having ships just from you is adding a lot to the feeling everything is the same today (don't interpret this as "I don't want you to create ships anymore", it's more like eating a good food everyday until it sucks)

Immtrm having a similar style doesn't help as well (tho it's great there's a new architect)

[edgy spire]

The solution? new weapons

there has been 0 modern energy weapons (mining laser is not allowed on career ships and does not count)

[echo pulsar]

Like, many larger monolith designs were also asym back in the day and had weird design quirks, but now we seem to have mostly ditched that design for 1.5mil deck gun rammer

[edgy spire]

personally i think warden is a bit sad

its very old and looks off from other monolith ships, mid-old and new

[hoary tusk]

I think it is pretty cool, varied designs due to age aren't bad

I think Saris was the main architect pulling out assym ships

[edgy spire]

i think its more of i look at it and doesnt give me the feeling of monolith

[hoary tusk]

I hope he returns one day

[echo pulsar]

Pic?

[edgy spire]

indeed.

[edgy spire]

https://cosmoteer.wiki.gg/wiki/Warden

[hoary tusk]

The shape and weapon use is typical for mono tho, along with the paint, so it's fine imo

[echo pulsar]

Lol

I mean isnt it a pretty old ship

[hoary tusk]

It was updated by saris "recently" but I dunno when that was

[echo pulsar]

At least it has a good personality

[hoary tusk]

The only thing I dislike is the second paint block next to the missile launchers

Looks too boring

[hoary tusk]

I just got an idea, it may not be a good one but it also might be so hear me out

[edgy spire]

[hoary tusk]

Since there's a shortage of architects, why not have some people from the community occasionally submit ships they think might be good for career, with the architects choosing from them and changing stuff where necessary.

I think the main reason why I'm not an architect (aside from being 17) is that I don't want to create ships forever and ever until I'm burnt out

I'd much rather build casually and if something sticks just give it to an architect for reviewing

This would help a lot with ship uniqueness

Tho be aware that if something like this did exist I would flood it with (not just) monolith civilians at the start :3

[echo pulsar]

Design contests were supposed to be this but then i think the architects revolted or smth and denied the ships being added to career so now theyre just in a folder in the ship library

And now design contests are independent from ingame factions anyway

[neon current]

that was walt's decision

[echo pulsar]

Huh ok

It was phrased like it was the architects decision iirc

[edgy spire]

😭 blaming architetcs for everything

[echo pulsar]

I mean i dont blame you

The designs from those dcs wouldnt have fit in with the actual factions

[hoary tusk]

Yeah and they might still be added as cosmoteers

But only once that feature is implemented

[echo pulsar]

It was a worded that way in the announcement

[edgy spire]

where

[hoary tusk]

asking the same question

[echo pulsar]

It was literally like a year ago

That one design contest that involved in game faction designs

[hoary tusk]

Yeah I dunno where and what to look for exactly you're gonna have to find it yourself

[echo pulsar]

???

Do you wanna see the message or smth?

Idk where it is

[hoary tusk]

Yeah

[echo pulsar]

It was like a year ago

It doesnt even matter the designs shouldve been rejected

It was just presented like it was the architects decision to reject them

[hoary tusk]

I can't find it myself if I don't know what to look for

[echo pulsar]

Again you dont have to find it

Idk where it is

[hoary tusk]

I'd like to see the wording, not to learn who rejected it but why

[edgy spire]

january 2024 design contest

literally mv renegades

[static cobalt]

Wait why are mining lasers not allowed?

[echo pulsar]

Probably because theyre a bit janky and unbalanced

[edgy spire]

iirc walt said on a ask walt

[vivid ember]

My guess is that mining lasers cannot fire and rotate at the same time

So the ai is incapable of using them properly

[edgy spire]

#ask-walt message

that too

[shadow atlas]

The ai seem to be able to use them though (only need to set default attack angle etc manually but it will work in career). Mining lasers can turn while firing, but have slow turret traverse.

But I wish they are inefficient as attack weapons, if only because they are meant for mining not for fighting and because whatever they destroy gets salvaged into mats with greater efficiency than ordinary weapons.

[shadow atlas]

Iirc Warden was also updated one or two times btw

This should be the previous Warden btw (or close to), just for reference

Comparing the previous Warden with the new one, tbh I don't really have a preference of one over the other

[mild jungle]

This is something I've been noticing as well as I read these messages. While some of the newer late game designs might be more like competitive ships, the AI doesn't exactly know how to pilot them like a competitive player.

Also, we gotta remember: Cosmoteer is a sandbox game. You are supposed to come up with creative solutions to problems and experiment to see what works. You shouldn't be allowed to put a lot of weapons on a ship and just ram it through everything in career because they're wonkily designed.

[shadow atlas]

I mean even the old Alexander I like a lot more than the newer one, but still I wouldn't want the current Alexander being replaced by a newer design, even if the newer (hypothetical) design may end up looking even better.

[mild jungle]

I honestly don't know if I agree with OP or not - I think that faction ships should always stick to their quirks - no missile spam on cabal ships, excessive large shields on monolith ships, funny shapes on cabal ships. But the player should definitely be challenged as the game gets more and more difficult.

I do agree in a pinch though that Kingslayer and its smaller versions are not authentic to fringe. When I see it I think "pirate admiral" not "cobbled together mess"

[shadow atlas]

When I watch twitch or youtube streams, the majority of the players have designs that are not very well thought out (can't blame them, they are usually new to the game). They are having fun though and the learning curve to make efficient killing machines is a long one (which tbh I think not everyone will end up being capable off and I don't want to sound like a jerk but it is the truth).
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the game. I think giving players who are not like years experienced with making designs for Cosmoteer (which is the majority of course) should still be able to defeat the higher tier ships (if only because of economy, but it should still be fun to play against), even if just by great effort and trial and error-ing on their designs.

Also immersion is one of the hooks. Even though I do really like designs such as Desolator and Desecrator, these seem more like efficient killing machines than bits of glued together junk parts that Fringe is supposed to be represented by.

[echo pulsar]

I dont think this is a particularly good design philosophy in this case. Having to savescum and design counter ships isnt particularly engaging or immersive

This has kinda gotten past the point of “build functional ships”

[mild jungle]

I mean, you shouldn't have to savescum - a lot of the designs are still pretty slow (as they should be)

honestly, a lot of the ships people have complained about in this thread can be easily defeated if you just build a ship that has good shielding, PD, and can strafe

you can't just ram head on into everything

[shadow atlas]

The only ships I kinda have something of a thing against are fast rail kiters, because I'd need to redesign half my fleet specifically to counter them, which is not something I enjoy.
I kinda bypass this issue due to how ai works (they seem to lock onto one ship, which I retreat while it gets pummeled and killed) while other ships are able to flank it and take out some of its engines.

But if ai gets smarter, I have some reservations about how much fun it's going to be if 1) ai gets improved and 2) faster railkiters get introduced.

[neon current]

I see people regularly beating the game with their "not very well thought out ships". A high level of optimization has never been and never will be necessary to beat the game.

Even though I do really like designs such as Desolator and Desecrator, these seem more like efficient killing machines than bits of glued together junk parts that Fringe is supposed to be represented by.
These are some of the most expensive ships the faction has. I think it's more immersive for Fringe's ships to get better designed the further in you get, because it simply makes in-universe sense. This isn't a new development; it's always been the case with late-game Fringe ships like Clockwork or Nemesis.

[mild jungle]

oh yeah I agree honestly, some of those kiters are really brutal and are kind of impossible to destroy without a specific counter ship

but the majority of the other types people have complained about here really aren't that strong with the right precautions

but, I completely disagree with OP that destructor isn't a good ship for career. it is a very specific rammer counter. As long as you don't try to ram it you'll be fine.

[neon current]

The ships that get the most difficulty complaints are usually rammers (understandable) and ships that perform well against rail kites, which I think is a little telling.

[mild jungle]

lol

I honestly wouldn't mind more ships that do good against rail kites, they've been a way to "cheat" cosmoteer for a while

[shadow atlas]

Odd...
For me rammers are at worst kinda annoying but actually also enjoyable at the same time. I don't really mind them. I think Banshee is one of THE most hilarious ship encounters I ever had in this game xD

Yes, it is annoying. Kinda. But it's also fun.

Fast railkiters (especially if it's hard to take out their engines as well) are not what I enjoy fighting. They are annoying, but not very much fun for me.
But yes, they are admirable in how good their designs are, don't get me wrong. But I'm also thinking about how enjoyable certain designs are for me when encountering them.

Nuke barges are also not annoying for me. If anything, I think they are adrenaline inducing because I immediately know what's at stake and what I'm up against

[hoary tusk]

I think something that can work for casual players against kiters are boost thrusters, tho I don't think most people use them since they aren't used ingame. Making ai capable of using them would make players learn about them, while also allowing for more unique designs.

[shadow atlas]

I think this debate is a bit out of context for ship designs. I think the place of railguns themselves would need to be changed, in some way or another.
I could go on a long while of why I think railguns are not the best addition for the game (think being a sniper in a jeep fighting a horse mounted knight).

[mild jungle]

love that analogy lol

[hoary tusk]

Anyways I think most of these problems will be solved with the planned ai rework

[mild jungle]

I'm looking forward to it!

[edgy spire]

railkiters when empkiters walk in (and waste all the money on ammo)

[hoary tusk]

Honestly unless there's been a lot of work done on career 2.5 already I would consider switching the two on the roadmap

Since faction wars with a bunch of dumb ships wouldn't be the best

[shadow atlas]

The vast majority of players I see are in the lower tier systems. I don't really know what they end up coming up with further into their playthroughs, so can't tell much about it.

But I do have a favorite clip of someone using relatively poor designs yoloing into a higher level Imperium system and getting surprised by a higher level Imperium ship, the fight that ensued was I think awesome!
He did end up 'winning', but his fleet was severely damaged in the process. It was great! I'll go look it up, see if it's still on youtube.

EDIT: Well, it's not exactly very high tier now that I found the clip. But here it is (with correct timestamp)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BamioeQqQE&t=666s

[neon current]

I agree about fast rail kites being unfun overall, but I also think there should be at least a few ships like that in the game for people to fight, if only because it's a unique challenge that hopefully makes players rethink their strategies and builds.

I think we've mostly been good about limiting those, since rails are one of the rarest AI weapons, and most ships with them don't go much higher than 80m/s in reverse, which feels like a fair enough speed check.

[mild jungle]

Thunderbird watching all of their EMP missiles hit my big armor block:

[edgy spire]

300 damage * 175% in electron cloud

[shadow atlas]

I totally agree with needing to limit them, but also that they should be included in the game. I'm fine with tough designs being present in the game, but they shouldn't be the vast majority of ships to be found.
I've been kinda putting off adding upgraded variants for one of my mods of railkiters because I don't want to increase their numbers further, to be honest.

But tbh, I wouldn't want to see even more of them. There's still a few in the game and adding non-railkiters will only dilute their numbers slightly.

[hoary tusk]

Generally the hardest ships should be reserved for imp

[shadow atlas]

Perhaps, as been kinda suggested this thread, the af of now unused difficulty settings of 1,2 or 3 could perhaps be used to denote their relative rarity depending on career setting. Having this option even beyond 3 will only make modding more enjoyable as I'd have better control over how often I want to see ships spawn.

As things are now all ships seem to have an equal spawning chance.

Bit off-topic, but I think still relevant to remark.

[neon current]

I'm far more concerned about early-game ships being too hard than I am about late-game ships being hard. If you're even seeing the late-game ships, you're probably good enough to fight them.

My reasoning (and what I've seen) is that players that get to late-game have beaten everything up to that point the game has thrown at them. If you've been dealing with rammers all game, you're probably ready to take on a Shesto. Resource scaling gets pretty crazy the further players get, so someone at lvl 13-18 has a far larger margin of error to work with, along with considerably more flexibility and learned skill in how they can deal with problems.

With that in mind, I'm more concerned about difficulty peaking in the early/mid game and dropping off a cliff afterwards. That tends to happen in a lot of games (including this one) and I think it's always a bit of a letdown when it does. Ideally, I think the difficulty curve should be a gradual climb (with variance) from an easy early game to a more challenging late-game.

[twilit heart]

to me, career is too easy either way

[shadow atlas]

You never even play career. Your only task on this discord seems to cause discord amongts anyone who doesn't fit your poststamped-sized opinion.
You just mass-downvote anyone who's opinion is even the slightliest not what you wnt to se. Heck, you even add odd suggestions and then downvote your own suggestions. What are you even doing here?

[twilit heart]

but it's more so for new players, and i think we shouldn't assume new players are so bad it's an automatic easy mode, so a bit of difficulty for them would be good

[neon current]

Yeah, I mean we're never going to balance career around people who've been playing PvP for years. 😅

[twilit heart]

that and if career is such an easy pushover it can definitely become more boring over time, and make pvp even harder as a bigger gap in difficult is made

[hard trail]

Reading back as much as I can, I'm gonna be real with u Vilda I think this railkite hyperfixation is an issue.
I get the idea of wanting to make players vary their ships more and I absolutely appreciate the vibe. HOWEVER, a ship built to counter a railkite (in this situation) also does incredibly well against practically everything other than bringing in competitive ultralights.
I don't hate the new ships because they are an issue to railkites - I don't use railkites. I have a problem with them because I suddenly walk into the THIRD fight in a row involving over a hundred goddamn missile launchers and I am not fighting Monolith.
It's straight up ridiculous.
Stop it.
If you want specifically railkite counter features like EMP go right ahead. I won't stop you. But test how good that is killing other archetypes too.

[twilit heart]

technically, you wouldn't deal with a kite the same was as say, a brick, so it's not automatic win against all non kites

kites aren't even that good most of the time

[shadow atlas]

Like I said, the issue is with the railgun I think. Career has a huge area to fight in, so something like a fast railgun will be the arguably best weapon for it logically speaking (sniper in a jeep fighting a horse-mounted knight)

[hoary tusk]

In career you just need a railkite and a flanker to win instantly

[twilit heart]

or just any railfan

[ocean brook]

omfg. I havent played career in a while so never saw this thing. THAT IS INSANE. it looks amazing and is nearly 50% made of weapon in defensible positioning. Personally I dont feel that career ships' rank should be based entirely off ship cost. The rank should reflect the difficulty and power in combat. This should enable higher difficulty ships to actually feel scary, while keeping the amazing charm the lower ranked ships had.

[hard trail]

A secondary mention: It's not like my architecture sucks either. You shouldn't have to become a veteran architect with 3,000 hours designing ships to make something that can even just survive a fight. Again I understand raising the difficulty as the game gets later, but how it's being done is nowhere near player-friendly.

[shadow atlas]

This is possible. I think the price of the ship is mostly an indication of what tier it should start in. Each ship can easily be adjusted in tier individually.

[hoary tusk]

While that is true it would require a lot of manual balancing that would never satisfy everyone

[neon current]

HOWEVER, a ship built to counter a railkite (in this situation) also does incredibly well against practically everything other than bringing in competitive ultralights.
I don't think this is true at all. A built-in like Thyreos can beat a Thunderbird (the most expensive railkite in the game), but it melts against "fair" ships, including ones half its cost.

Missiles are probably the most common AI weapon in the game, but they're also the easiest to counter, so I think missile spam in general is "fairer" than deck cannon or nuke spam.

[twilit heart]

i don't think a few kites would make it unplayably hard for players

[hoary tusk]

They are annoying tho and that's main thing to avoid

Boring fights -> boring game

[twilit heart]

well i'd see kites as a sort of indicator to players that they need more speed, as i think a lot of players may just make bricks otherwise

[neon current]

This is mostly done for economic reasons afaik. Even if a big ship is weak, it still drops a lot of loot. It's also nice to have some lulls in the action by spawning weaker ships from time to time at high levels, to give players a break.

[hoary tusk]

We do not need more speed meta, plus kites would make new players use them as well, and that's also boring

[twilit heart]

i think the whole ship class number system is more of not a difficulty thing, and more of a show of how expensive the stuff in that area will be

[twilit heart]

the career kites ain't no speed meta, they aren't going 200 m/s

[shadow atlas]

So what ships are going 200m/s?

None afaik

So really a pointless remark

[twilit heart]

if all fights were an up close slug of missiles or cannons, then players just make a tanky brick and win

[twilit heart]

ever see those ul nukes?

[hoary tusk]

The average speed would gradually increase tho

[shadow atlas]

I never seen an ul nukes

[twilit heart]

then go look for one, this is off topic to the suggestion

[neon current]

"Speed meta" is undesirable, but I think there should be enough reason in career for players to care about how much thrust their ships have (beyond convenience).

[shadow atlas]

Dude, I asked you for an example of a ship that does go 200m/s as I think these don't even exist, which will invalidate what you said. Your response is to look one up because it is off topic which is not the case for why would you then have even mentioned it? (unless you were talking trash to begin with, which was kinda my point)

[twilit heart]

maybe the speed may gradually increase, but i'd say it's more unlikely with warping in your ships being faster if you need to do combat, as you wouldn't need to go fast against any non-kite in a fight against the simple ai's

[hoary tusk]

The race missions in my pocket

[ocean brook]

like all difficulties in any game, it SHOULDNT fully satify everyone. it is important to have variance in difficulty. the problem however is when you have too great of difficulty spikes.

My first career I was learning how to make ships extremely poorly. it was an ever growing cargo ship with a railgun. it was a rank 6-8 area. I was able to slaughter everything without any problem or threat. then I saw it. a single ship. It was the first Nuke ship I ever saw. It had EIGHT. it was a brick of arrmor with nuke launchers out the sides. my ship was vaporized instantly.

This is a problem because I didnt know the value of defenses. That ship was 1/2 the size of everything else I was fighting, yet it obliterated me in 1 volley after I was dominating everything.

Even if it is a challenge to adjust ships with a combat potential value, I suspect a rating system could be implemented or values from oppinions of new and experienced players to help balance each ship's rank.

I have spent the past month working on a max grid sized dreadnaught. For over a year I have competed with all the max grid sized ships, each time we find a way to obliterate the other. The cost and crew requirements for these ships is basically equal, yet the newer ones have a 0% loss rate with half systems turned off vs the older models. Design plays a MASSIVE factor in combat potential. Rank should reflect this to some degree as a result

[shadow atlas]

The issue with this is that railkiters are so fast relative to the need for speed vs other requirements that players feel they need to design and build a specific counter, which is not a very fun way to play the game for many.

[neon current]

Speed's also going up because we wanted to add ships with modular thrusters. It's kind of hard to make a ship with MRTs slow.

[hard trail]

That is one ship out of dozens.
One.
Ship.
You will not be fighting this one ship in most of your engagements.
Just having a token "look this ship does what you want" ain't passing with me.

Vilda did you know that I have actually practically "beat" Career with a proper fleet of varied ships? It's nowhere near like I'm pulling half my passion from my ass.

Also, spamming missiles reduces things the player has to adapt for, making them promote something dumb like flakwall meta.
...Which btw flakwalls are one of the most brutal ship types in the game and counter everything if controlled well. Epic concept to spread.
I would not be so vehemently against later missile spam if it was not for whatever reason core to nearly all ships. Even (and I will be passionate here) butchering the Imperium to spit out a fucking campfire fork with ONE HUNDRED AND TWO missiles and nearly no nukes. WHY.

[twilit heart]

that is true, mrt's are kind of not slow

[ocean brook]

There is a economic difficulty slider. I suspect a similar system should be possible to apply to ships as well. effectively increase the value of parts from more combat focused ships to ensure they give reward worthy of the challenge

[shadow atlas]

Also having to build a counter specifically for one type of unit is also kinda a telltale sign something isn't very balanced, which I suspect railkiters are in this game.
I wouldn't even have much issue with them if it were easier to EMP them to slow down enough so my ships can at least catch up to it or something.

[neon current]

There is a separate difficulty rating for ships (easy/med/hard), but at the moment it's unused. It'll likely play a role in career 2.0, though.

[hard trail]

which I suspect
I hate to jump at your neck but uh do you have enough experience to really be saying more than filler comments?
That is not a comment I would want to hear in a debate involving considerable game experience

[shadow atlas]

Well, I've been gaming since DOS and making mods since Win95. Is that not experienced enough for you?

[twilit heart]

speed is good for all ship battles, but not needed, if a player never goes and adds speed because no battle needs it, and thrusters being costly, then that player will never really get anywhere, and kites are just a little push in the right direction

[hoary tusk]

Maybe to get proper feedback from new players there should be a subnautica like feedback thingy, maybe as a mission with a small money incentive

[hard trail]

Gimme ships

[shadow atlas]

?

[hard trail]

Your ship designs I would like to see a couple for proof

[shadow atlas]

Clarify?

Proof of what?

[hard trail]

Experience

[shadow atlas]

Experience of what?

[hard trail]

Trusting merely some text is a terrible idea

[edgy spire]

[shadow atlas]

What do you mean filler comments? lol

[hard trail]

If you have such experience then you should have mods and ships to back it

[shadow atlas]

To back what?

Clarify?

[edgy spire]

Sircampalot has mods and ships to back it but ????
don't gatekeep opinions

shrug

[shadow atlas]

Anyway, I'll be back in like an hour. Should give you enough time why I should even want to comply

[neon current]

butchering the Imperium to spit out a fucking campfire fork with ONE HUNDRED AND TWO missiles and nearly no nukes. WHY.
It's in the most expensive tier in the game for the hardest faction in the game, and there was a good amount of feedback previously about Imperium overdoing it with nukes.

I think the variety it brings is worthwhile, plus it's just fun to watch in action.

[hard trail]

And so it now overdoes it with missiles, what a death spiral.

[shadow atlas]

Anyway, what does Lixie have to offer to me?

[glass zephyr]

And what the problem, Augustus (102HE missile barge) spawns too often?

[hard trail]

I have to at minimum at least tell that they're not a troll with no experience at all
I do not know their name
It's pretty easy to vouch in this situation as one can simply show any sort of proof like linking a mod or posting some ship designs

[edgy spire]

"Extended tech tree mod"

[hard trail]

LINK.

[edgy spire]

i'm unable to open steam properly at the moment

[edgy spire]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2946411143&searchtext=tech+tree

[ocean brook]

what is this derailiing topic regardling player experience having primary sway over the value as feedback. I have 80k + hours of gaming over my life. less than 2k of that is cosmoteer esk games.
some players Cosmoteer could be in their first 1k hours of ever gaming.

Why would any of these opinions not matter?

Experience only aids us in determining relative difficulties. a new player is still going to find problems that experienced players could have forgotten or never ran into.

Part of Cosmoteer career's charm is in the sci fi ineffective design aspects. I like seeing the progression toward more effective combat designs, but I also want to see large aesthetic ships. its far nicer to see those massive pretty ships have some kind of chance in combat

Ranking fully acounts for this, it just needs balancing

[edgy spire]

i think you're going too agressive personally, lixie
i'm sorry. and i don't know how to help

[ocean brook]

I agree, I started typing that and by the time I finished the derailing had ....stopped

[edgy spire]

it was the original topic so its not derailing

[hard trail]

Because I'm clearly at this point talking to a brick wall

Vilda simply and clearly said "nuh uh" to changing anything because RAILKITES are somehow such a thing that the rest of the game should die in favour of making them less meta.
It's goddamn clear that nothing being said here is being taken into consideration beyond defending the ship designs.
I am loathing and infuriated by the thought that unless someone with proper authority orders things to back down and ships to be more unique and varied, Career will become a soulless hell with hundreds of missiles fired every lategame battle, and somebody thinks this is good.

[hoary tusk]

I think what we need is just a bigger variety in architects

[edgy spire]

search for walt's email and query

discord search ask walk for more details

(theres just the email)

[ocean brook]

This trend of more combat ships in career seems to pull a lot of players that I suspect rarely play career.
Seems to had hit home on a lot of our values so our opinions are flaring against each other. easily more than double the highest reply count of all feedback in the past week.

[hoary tusk]

Vilda's more "soulless" designs don't hurt here and there but if the entire game relies on his designs it's bad

[hard trail]

Absolutely agreed

[edgy spire]

i do believe it is being taken into consideration. especially immaterium talking some things

this isn't something that "changes night to day" with 2 paragraphs, it needs more time to see results
whether anything changes... unsure

[hard trail]

Ships with more varied weapons and fighting styles is especially how you make a varied fight. ESPECIALLY ships that can use a good counter on your side, but aren't completely necessary to have a counter for.

[hoary tusk]

#ask-walt message

[edgy spire]

you could brute force you way too easily

[hard trail]

And that's not a problem to me - why make it not an option?

[hoary tusk]

Even once I'm 18 I'm awful at working on one project for a long time

[neon current]

Well-thought out, actionable feedback is read and considered. Swearing, caps lock, and calling things "soulless" isn't particularly productive if you want to make a persuasive point, though.

[hoary tusk]

I prefer putting my ship ideas out there and hoping architects use them

[edgy spire]

"Roko's ballistic" never happened,,, sad
Roko's revenge is a thing though iirc

and i'm off, brb

[hard trail]

Prove to me they're not soulless have funnnnnn

[hoary tusk]

Not soulless and unique mean the exact same thing, the ship stays in your brain because you enjoyed fighting it

Those can be both cantiloupe and orion

[hard trail]

With salvaging allowing you to build a ship twice as big as the enemy's, is this really a thing that should be automatically dissuaded? Brute force in itself might be boring, but I don't see what's wrong with it being a valid (although not very effective) tactic.

[ocean brook]

There is definitely soul to both these ships. but what of ships needed to take them down? These things are the result of months of optimization and adjustments. Very few players will want to do that

This is the final form the base game is capable of. personally, I dont think it is wrong to have such insane ships in the game, but it should be in a location that you know what you are getting into

[hard trail]

Well no, they only mean the ship stays in my mind
To me the fun and unique ships always stick around because they have such unique fights and challenges that you gotta work around
The soulless ones are painful, overpowered, and add nothing but misery to my lategame experience
I did not enjoy fighting Kingslayer or Augustus whatsoever even if AfN and Executor were some silly fun challenges

[hoary tusk]

Oh I said soulless instead of not soulless oops

[hard trail]

Ah oop

[hard trail]

Of course, and I'm pretty agreed on that
But a max grid ship like this would be pretty unique and probably have many interesting quirks to its fight, considering the size of them and their variety or lack of of weapons
It is certainly no big missile stick that does nothing more than turn you into swiss cheese if you so much as forgot 46 flak

[glass zephyr]

Roster of end-game ships currently is much smaller than ones of early and mid-game (end-game ships take longer to build) and I can see how that could be problem in terms of variety. Eventually, I don't think the career will be completely filled with just missiles or just with anything else, it would be just bad.

[hard trail]

Then I kindly and rather urgently request a shift to building non-missile lategame ships as soon as possible
Currently, other than Cabal, it is missile hell - Monolith is understandable bexause it seems their focus, but a few of the biggest Fringe ships are missile spammers and Imperium has been, simply, butchered for them

And yes, I will say it outright, I would rather fight a cooler looking Augustus with nukes rather than missiles
Go ham

[plain field]

Augustus's missile spam does make it weak to heavly armored deckcannons

the nice thing about most ships is they do have counters

like missils are good for swarms, and swarms are good for things like ioncores,

[shadow atlas]

Well then I'd suggest you tell that to the person who said it and not to me as I had nothing to do with whatever it is you're stating here.

Also I agree that you took a wrong turn by trying to attack the player instead of the ball.
Please refrain from doing so, it doesn't bring anything constructively.

[shadow atlas]

This will probably help, but I guess there's a reason for the low amount of architects?

[hoary tusk]

Well at least saris got burnt out I think, might've happened with the others as well

[shadow atlas]

I think the feedback is at times a bit too harsh. I mean the ships you make are outstanding.
But I think the point is not to insult or provoce, but to try to get a point across of some sort of a spectrum with beautiful creative odd unique ships on one side and pvp meta bricks on the other, trying to couple the use of "soulless" to the latter.

Or at least this is how I interpreted it.

[shadow atlas]

I understand. I've had this happen many times. It's also why I take regular brakes and why some of my projects simply never seem to come off the ground (got way more ideas than I have energy and time etc).
It's fairly easy to push yourself over the edge because one desires to keep the tempo up

It feels so satisfying to have a new awesome project finished and ready to go! But to get there it can eat at you, so to say

[low pier]

I think we can set up different ships for different game difficulties

[neon current]

Saris was also a moderator, tournament host, and active at the highest level of PvP. They were great but they did a lot.

I think threads like this and #off-topic demonstrate quite well that spending too much time dealing this community is a psychic hazard, though.

[low pier]

I think in this way,the different game difficulties will be more intersting than now.And also can keep these stronger ships

[shadow atlas]

Personally I think this is a good idea as well. But dunno what career 2.0 has in store for us. For all we know there may already be a better idea somewhere in the pipeline

[low pier]

True

[hoary tusk]

Not just this community

[hard trail]

Babe you've been typing for over ten minutes u good?

[vivid ember]

I’d like to point out how HE missiles are basically a slap in the face to the player because they require a lot of crew to properly operate, and many launchers to be effective as a primary or secondary weapon.

Using missiles as the player is super inefficient since the primary bottleneck in career, especially with higher difficulty settings, is crew. From what I can tell, the built-in ships were built with cost constraints, whereas player ships tend to be built with crew restraints [still typing but the idea is clear ig]

[hard trail]

o no

[vivid ember]

I don't see this point being discussed but I think it's important to emphasize since the primary difficulty of career mode (at the time of writing, before career 2.0) comes from working with a limited quantity of crew, since shipbuilding materials can be farmed, although it takes a long time. I'll even go as far as to say that the game's weapons as a whole are balanced too much around their cost and not enough around how many crew they require to function

To kinda emphasize this point, I'll point out that Augustus has 888 crew

[ocean brook]

massively agree on this. no matter how I have tried to add HE to my dreadnaught, they are inefficient. never add damage in locations already being attacked. effectively making them worthless in small numbers and only a marginal upgrade in large numbers. Other missile types can enhance damage in synergistic areas more effectively like nukes or EMP.
To me HE feel more like an all or nothing investment type weapon system.

HE, nukes, and other weapon systems deep in the tech tree are harder to learn from a user's perspective as well so they naturally are less effective when implemented. also ships often designed for completely different weapon systems are unlikely to change for most.

[ocean brook]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3139321638
I just want to point out that balance around crew size alone also doesnt work perfectly. This ion monster has the same crew size as Augustus. costs more in parts, but again ephesizes the point that ships' ranking should be a combination of crew size, cost, armor total, and avg combat capacity

[viral torrent]

I haven't read all 400 or so comments here so this might have been said already but: how about locking more PVP focused ships behind harder difficulties?

this would give those looking for a challenge or inspiration what they want, while those seeking a more roleplay/casual experience can also find that. Both in an intuitive way

[idle gorge]

i have little to do with this argument but all i can say is reverting the vilda remakes to their originals would add a little charm back to the game that was lost after their redesign (glint was visually interesting and everyone is complaining about wanting can opener back)

additionally one way to help with this whole drought of "soulless" and empty , uncreative ships is GET MORE ARCHITECTS or straight up give the community a chance to also add their own ships to the many factions

if the amount of ships being added is running off four people and the most active (vilda) is the one making "bad" changes according to the community , maybe let the community take control and add in their own touch to the faction ship roster as well?

that way there would technically be more variety , and i already know some people are going to go bonkers (looking at you nick) with adding brand new ships , i feel like the civilian ships section of every faction is a little empty even if they are a miniscule , not often encountered thing

Cabal's silly and radical designs arent worth much if there arent a sufficient amount for a diverse civilian roster

adding my own touch to the pvp archetype spillover , i'd say instead of thinking to add some arbitrary design because "it fits faction and kills good" like a railkite/dc rammer/missile wall , why not instead forgo those ideas , and just make something cool and able to kill? Even if its impractical or plain just unusual for the faction its in , it'll definetely add a little more charm and make ships be seen better than just "this is just another boring [pvp archetype here]"

i've made a faction full of ships before , and while it does follow a sort of style and maybe has a few archetypes (cough cough 5 stygil clones cough cough) , its got enough character and visually creative designs to make up for it. Plus the ships kill decently well for their price range

Basically : just make something cool , and try not to make it with the idea of it being the most brutally efficient killing machine , or a pvp archetype. Nothing can kill everything it encounters easily , so why bother with perfecting combat designs when you can just make ships that are actually cool and fun to fight instead of pvp inspired rammer/missile orbiter design no.293 but MONOLITH!!

[viral torrent]

While I agree with most of that we must also consider those who find optimising ships fun. Whether that be for campaign or PVP. For those people its very usefull to have a series of ships with effective designs ready to go in the base game.

These are also the players who will likely find fun in greater challenges.

Hence the suggestion to split the designs up by game difficulty. Since its impossible to do both of these things at the same time (Visually interesting designs are near guaranteed to come at the cost of combat effectiveness).

[idle gorge]

then why dont we use the unused difficulty thing few people have mentioned to seperate the cool , pvp-ish ships from the more visually creative and aesthetic ones so that the pvp ones only appear in higher difficulties instead?

[viral torrent]

That my good friend, was pretty much exactly what I suggested

[idle gorge]

happens too much for me

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/314115739160281088/1240001076292485192/5399laptop.gif

i think ill go now and let everyone else deal with this thread

i have no buisness being here because i hardly ever play career and are basing my ideas off complaints and suggestions based off other peoples experiences instead of mine

[viral torrent]

Hmmmm, yeah that would make it pretty difficult. Still, a different perspective may still be usefull. Provided of course that it is your own perspective from which you speak. I spent like 90% of my time in creative mode, so i'm just speaking from the last 10% I spent in campaign. And its only recently that I started a new run in quite a while (last time the chaingun, new thruster, and bigger hyperdrives weren't added for reference)

Not that I wish to trap you here 😄

[idle gorge]

its fine

[plain field]

i do have to agree with the thing about vilda makeing most of the ships, as you can see from this pie chart he's made 2/5ths of all ships

[idle gorge]

im just keeping myself from accidentally making a wrong move in a place i dont have expertise in

[plain field]

haveint updated it for iminimitrim yet

immaterium*

[viral torrent]

I honestly thought the ships were already being made by the community. So i'll just take your word for it (especially if you've got a fancy pie chart and everything lol)

[plain field]

i made a realy big list one time.....

there are comunity ships but they haveint technicaly been added to the game

they just kinda hang out in the desighn contests folder

[viral torrent]

Damm, that kinda sucks 😦

[plain field]

eventualy to be added as rouge cosmoteer ships

[viral torrent]

Ah well

[plain field]

its a future update kinda thing

[viral torrent]

Guess i've got something to look forward to then

[plain field]

if you get your ship wrecked by a ship called kazaaakilipleth ping me, i made that one

[viral torrent]

I will 🙂

[viscid kindle]

oh man ol flamepincer was a menace lmao, i encountered like 5 of them sudddenly appearing on radar, i thought "oh 5 enemies, shouldn't be hard to deal with my 6 guns at the front" then they appeared right before my eyes and 5 flamepincers all flying like headless wasps shooting missiles and lasers while my guns slowly turn to engage.

that was funny to watch, my big slowass cruiser struggling to aim and shoot because these pesky ships were too fast lmao

[viscid kindle]

i usually cheese the imperium nuke ships by letting my railgun cruiser handle it lmao, i let the cruiser sit at a distance and aim for its bridge or the reactor

[vivid ember]

railkites/railcruisers can cheese every career ship

[tender knot]

Ugly fridge with thrusters

[viscid kindle]

i can literally snap this thing in half with just a railgun shooting the 2 connecting stems between the cluster of thrusters and it will be disabled and out of action

[tender knot]

Doesn’t make it any less ugly of a ship

It’s just thruster spam with missiles

[viscid kindle]

yeah, and another way to disable it wait until it runs out of missiles lol

[tender knot]

Takes too long and is way too annyoing besides your not out running it that’s what the thrusters are for

[hard trail]

I forget if I properly addressed this:
The thing is that many endgame ships are - on an equal basis even ones like AfN and Apotheosis put up pretty decent fights against ships with mid to good architecture, even flat out winning. The current combat difficulty is more than good enough to incentivize players to build better or to build more, and I don't believe that saying "oh but 2x cost diff towards player" is any reason to justify an increase.
not to mention, I always play on Architect/Captain anyways. If ships are intended to be balanced towards challenge, the balance should be tested with more than the easiest modes.
Destructor to me is an odd ship that simply appeared and nothing in its design coheres to explain that appearance. It lacks character beyond the forced feeling mines, especially with the aforementioned, lackluster paint. The mines came such out of nowhere that it feels like a competitive port like the missile barge or the Imp cannon walls.
Missiles.

The thing with missile ships is that of course, normally they're simply a weapon that exists on some ships, as all weapons are. Lancea passes because it is a rarity (an Imp missile ship) that looks beautiful, plays well into the missiles, and even then sports the classic Imperium nukes. It's powerful but it's in an area where it earns it. Augustus doesn't.
The problem I have with Kingslayer and Augustus is that NEITHER of them fit their factions, and both simply spam excessive missiles because Vilda thought it would be funny. They have no character aside from that, and are organized missile sticks and front armor missile bricks respectively.
Many other ships also sport unnecessary missile clusters that hugely bloat the amount of missiles one will see in a game. This is bad. If you made a mode removing HE ships, you would remove nearly every recent builtin (nearly becuz bet ppl will fail to listen) and a very considerable fraction of lategame.
Aesthetics.
The new ships have generic paint with little personality and in general some just look blegh (Augustus).
Sometimes a ship just looks looks like another faction's ship.
Like with Kingslayer it's so atrocious that Antithesis and I found out it literally just fits with Monolith if you give it the Monolith colours. It's a generic Monolith missile/CG brick on the wrong faction.
The giant, same looking white and blue plates are on all the new ships, barely any heart in paint structure like the older ones with their sick decal styling.
Augustus, I'm sorry, is straight up ugly. Like not content with being out of faction place, Augustus is terrible in appearance and has little overall structure. It does NOT tell of an Imperium flagship, or a warship at all.

To cap this all off: Too many missiles, not enough heart, wrong difficulty balancing, Can Opener we miss you ,o,7
Also thankfully Nitro.

[hard trail]

Oh also single best argument against railkite counters - making generalized, widespread counters to a completely niche and specialized mechanic is inherently bad game design

[echo pulsar]

Im gonna say that while this is definitely subjective opinion it still is a valid complaint and shouldnt be disregarded. Many complaints are subjective opinions and it doesnt make them invalid

The underlying issue is lack of architects

This is just a symptom

Which is fine to point out, since not many others seem to be doing

But i think everyone here has made their point

[north patio]

i do think more faction design contests and/or adding faction SOTD submissions (of course after being reviewed) would be a good call

architects should still be the majority of faction ships, but outsourcing some to the wider community would add some much-needed variety

[dense kettle]

I don't think adding SOTD submissions is a good idea. However i mentionned in the past my wish of more design contest (and i do not seems alone thinking that..)

[hard trail]

I mean i won't deny it but it is the entire point of this entire forum

(btw ur ships are really cool I love them)

[echo pulsar]

Some sotd submissions are quite faithful to the factions, either as is or with some tiny tweaks from an architect

DCs would be cool though there isnt many easy ways to objectively decide actual 1st 2nd 3rd winners so maybe there would be no voting and just ships would be tweaked/added at architects discretion

[shadow atlas]

Some of them would make really good faction ships though

(but not all)

[twilit heart]

to me, i think the newer ships look basically the same as the old ones, to the paint to certain design choices, the thing is when you go for larger ships, for example something 1.5m, your weapon choices become a bit limited, missiles is easy to use on a lot of designs, shallower weapons fall off unless you make it a wall like cannons or dlb's,

[toxic sable]

You have the heart of Corpo beating in your chest.

Respect

Yeah I've just discovered this thread, and I absolutely agree.

Built-ins have degraded from quirky fun encounters with a ton of personality to generic meta wannabes with some aesthetic sprinkles. It's almost if Plaus was to become an architect, also known as armageddon xD

And I don't want to point fingers or anything but the main culprit is Vilda.

[vivid ember]

Yup…
At least the imperium dom tourney ports have been acknowledged

For the love of god, if these things have to exist, lock them behind higher difficulties

The inconsistency of strength gets me too, you look at a mission with X difficulty but it could be anything from a resource piñata to a fucking ai meta missile cruiser

I understand some variation to make things interesting and fresh but this is too much

[toxic sable]

Good news is the fact that ships have a built-in difficulty ranking within them, it's not used currently but I'm sure it's going to find purpose with the Career 2.0 updates.

[vivid ember]

Right

[plain field]

a cool thing i could mention for that would be if we ended up geting a new faction thats basicly just comunity ships, could be named something like 'the cosmoteer consolidation' or even just 'the cosmoteers'

[cunning swan]

issat ftl mv reference?!?!?!?!?

[plain field]

yes

sept i spelt his name backwards i think

[cunning swan]

yeah

partly

[plain field]

yeah the pleth and kililk are swaped

[hard trail]

Gameplay.

So you'd think I'd be done passionately bashing the new builtins over the head, that I've found acceptance or maybe some hidden plus to them that was missed before. Perhaps even the header - maybe, just maybe, testing these new ships ingame in proper battles to see what unique things they add to combat. Maybe the tactics they use would redeem the ship designs and make me back off my case.

-_- no.
Things get even worse with gameplay. Most of the builtins I tested simply ran up to a certain distance, opened fire, and expected you to die. Despite the huge amount of missile addons, I don't know of a new morbiter.
This has kinda left me speechless. Yipee.

[twilit heart]

cosmoteer ai right now is very basic, and it is planned to change

you aren't getting the exciting pvp- like battles, out of an ai

[hard trail]

Orbiters, rammers, ships that spin onto their side before firing

These all exist with the AI and examples exist already
(Axlerod, Shesto (iirc), Crankshaft)

[static cobalt]

Ok but making all ships orbiters and rammers is just extremely boring

Because those are two very specific ship archtypes

[hard trail]

So is making all the ships use generic RTS targetting - I'm not saying that all ships should be, but preferably more should be

[plain field]

i wonder if you could make a side shuffleing ship that swings back and forth alternateing what side it attacks a ship from

like it slides to the left then right

cha cha real smooth

[edgy spire]

nah not really possible unless you split the ship iirc

no please NO NO DONT ADD RAILFA-

[static cobalt]

If actually is possible

Somehow

I am not sure how

But one of my ships has that as an attack default

It is very unconventional to how AI normally attacks

[hoary tusk]

I would move the ai rework thingy on the roadmap right after career 2.0, because it is extremely important to both career and faction wars imo

Would solve a ton of issues

[shadow atlas]

I noticed similar behavior in some of the flagships from merchant raiders. Don't remember the exact details, but it is something along the lines of one of the ships in question having long reload railguns mounted on the sides, so when one fires, it will tend to want to tilt the other way so the non-reloading railgun can get a shot off. Same with ships that have most weapons mounted on the sides, it will tend to show one side or the other, tilting.
If the weapons on those sides were to have a longer reload (of say 10 seconds or 20 seconds or so), I think the ai will tilt the ship to show the other side so it can get the shots off from the fully loaded weapons mounted on the other side.

I wouldn't say it does it really smoothly, it really depends on one side having much more firepower ready to go and waiting for a clear shot while the other side is either in reload or most weapons are taken out.

[toxic sable]

I don't get you on that regard, that's just how the built-in AI and the pve in combat in general works in Cosmoteer.

Ships run up to a certain distance and expect you to die.

For kiters the distance is far, for rammers it's up close and personal...

[twilit heart]

Yea, very basic

[echo pulsar]

im going to post my thoughts that i mentioned in #ships here. i think that this whole issue here was borne from the want to make combat difficulty actually substantial. this is a decent idea since career usually pits you in simple 1v1 battles so its usually your design vs an enemy design. so clearly the best way to increase difficulty is to hyperoptimize enemy designs so theyll kick your shit in if you arent running a counter/kiter/avoider.

its generally the result of "must make combat actually difficult" and architects going the route of making the ships themselves better because thats currently the only built in option to directly make combat difficulty harder. i hope that in c2.0 walt adds some other more interesting factor before career becomes a glorified domination practice ground
ship designs dont HAVE to be better

we see that in ftd most ship designs are inherently flawed or inefficient or quirky in some sort
but thats fine because other factors make the playing field even without having every single ship be a meta frontsider bobber abomination

the ship designs themselves of the enemy dont have to compete directly with the player's, since this is a video game and 1v1 battles in the void of space vs a dom ship piloted by a nonsentient ai isnt particularly fun and engaging. it would be much more fun to be pitted against a fleet of fun, quirky, and not really optimal ships in a battle of overwhelming odds, where the difference maker is your piloting and superior design, and not that you finally managed to savescum your way to a counter matchup against a thruster wall.

i implore some architect/dev here to just think about what im saying, as i do feel that this trend of enemy design could cause irreparable harm to career and its enjoyability if it continues without being critically examined

[hard trail]

Tell me u haven't played career without telling me u haven't played career

There are a metric ton of morbiter and other orbiter designs such as Axlerod and Project Mjolnir

Making a ship do something that isn't run you down and gun you down isn't an uncommon thing for now

[toxic sable]

Funny you say that, because I kinda beat it without ever talking about it before they added a shit ton of orbiters.

Heck yeah, only Project Mjolnir and Daedalus existed back then!

[hard trail]

Yeah there's a ton more even Cabal ion orbiters

[toxic sable]

Now you ''blep,''

Tell me you aren't a newbie without telling me you're not a newbie.

[hard trail]

I built a 6-dc with 888k cost that could take down Auditor still pretty proud of that
Also I know what locking is I suppose

[static cobalt]

Now you nick and blep, tell me that you are a skibidi Ohio rizzler without telling me you are a skibidi Ohio rizzler

Yeah... Get owned libtards 😎

[spare vault]

Why was i blessed with the misfortune of seeing the message above me?

[toxic sable]

Tell me you aren't a stupid gen alpha kiddo without doing so.

[static cobalt]

Me when ironic humor is used :

[toxic sable]

Me when I answer ironic humour with more ironic humour:

[static cobalt]

https://tenor.com/view/spong-funny-gif-24911245

[toxic sable]

Last time somebody told me this it was 1 year ago, I am still patiently waiting but I guess they suck at their job :>

Also, I advice you to stop overcrowding this poor channel

[static cobalt]

Also yeah we should stop shitposting in here

[echo pulsar]

Wake up guys 4 new dom ships (monolith builtins) just dropped

[vivid ember]

tb missile orbiters, very interesting

Is the AI even capable of using the tb? I don't remember

Comparison to a pvp tb missile orbiter

[dense kettle]

Yes but not to change mode nor target anywhere but the center of mass

[warm pawn]

They just push you a little

[vivid ember]

I love how mines have begun making their way onto more and more built-ins now that mines are huge in pvp

It may just be a coincidence but I just find it funny

[violet kettle]

could have at least sent my abomination that I put in the group chat smh

[vivid ember]

Context: This thing

This thing is so much more interesting than many of the other recent built-ins

Easy ++ for me

[reef thorn]

I love the many different weapons it has, lots of variety.

[vivid ember]

Let's bring some more positives to this thread, big lists of "don't do this" are much less useful than a short list of "do this"

[vivid ember]

I'll lead by example :p

These are all newer built-ins that I really like, that rock fringe style paint is awesome (and more awesome with excellent ship shapes)

All these feel cleaner than older fringe but not too clean in my highly subjective opinion, my favorite of the four probably being Graverobber. I was a bit confused why Can Opener was changed to "Desparado" but I really like the remake shape and paint-wise

I feel like Desecrator would've been a bit better off with MRT but the logistics for it are wack, requiring LRs/MRs close by (and it's already painted) so I don't take much issue with it. I like how the deck cannons aren't all facing the same direction, it's a nice detail that's kinda easy to overlook but it does give off a bit of that jank vibe. No further comments on it and Desolator, great work

[hard trail]

I wish I could do that
Unfortunately there is nothing of most of the new ships that I wish to see explored more
The paint is cool but the sheer level it doesn't fit just hurts me

I would have simply posted in #"Built-in Feedback and Misc Errors" if I felt the ships were cool in some manner but needed tweaks
However the ships to me are irredeemable and will make a ton of players quit, and will suck too much fun out of campaign, all while lacking much new or... being competitive archetypes???? Might as well add avoiders at this point and suck even more soul out of career
We may quote unquote underestimate the adaptability of new players but I feel like ppl also underestimate the ability to press "Quit Game" and "Exit"
Trust me I've been fixing up another game with balance issues lately because of this exact same thing, someone misbalanced and made things too hard and uninteresting
and many incoming players quit from it

[quaint quest]

hehe ok AM

[hard trail]

I wanted to say cuz of the recent drama - I do not dislike ANY architect for their work and I DO NOT condone anyone going after them due to their ships.
Any feedback on the issues with built-ins, regardless of the tone hurled at it (I admit my aggro) should be directly hurled at the built-ins.
I made this thread because of my knowledge of difficulty and game design telling me that adding such ships with such balancing would severely affect combat diversity, teach nothing new, and force new players to do something other than learn to build better. (copy or straight up leave the game)
Unfortunately I can't let this sit still as I passionately don't want to see Career rot. I would love to drop this with a proper solution and let it go to history just as much as anyone else.

[static cobalt]

I just think the new paint jobs are ugly

And ig it is just a cube

I don't mind the weapon selections

I just want more shape

Other than cube

Also I kinda dislike internal thrusters as they just leave a big hole inside the ship

But other that visual and design stuff, I dont think that using good weapons will make people outright quit

[shadow atlas]

If the game tries to force players to design, build, and play only brutally efficient meta designs (also because of fame limiting crew), people will not find that very enjoyable and will make it more likely they will quit.

[toxic sable]

This week, on ''Vilda Wakes up and decides to port a random PvP archetype to built-ins:''

[warm pawn]

That was Immaterium

[static cobalt]

How many active architects do we currently have?

[limber summit]

I don't know why you posted this, but do you mind if I take it as inspiration?

[static cobalt]

Then I think as it has been said before; Implement a difficulty option

Or rather multiple that can be customised

[twilit heart]

i do not mind, and it was in relation to the mentioned domination mode

[static cobalt]

Especially one similar to classic cosmoteers which was about if enemy fleets should spawn and how many

[twilit heart]

i designed that in like 1 or 2 minutes

[limber summit]

It's a very charming design nonetheless

[plain field]

Walt Destler, Vilda, Saris, Casterninja, Nick, Hatter, Hansel Cat, Door, David Billingsley, Cosmopyr, Chikin, Captain Redstone, Avokado, Quiximo, Immaterium
those are all the people that have made ships that are ingame

actual archetctas are: Walt Destler, Vilda, Saris, Door, David Billingsley, Immaterium

[limber summit]

David Billingsley nor Walt are primarily ship designers (not architects) and you've forgotten 0neye. Cosmopyr was an actual architect as well but has since disappeared completely.

[plain field]

, i thought i might have forgot someone.....

[static cobalt]

Does anybody know why 0neye disappeared?

[limber summit]

0neye is still on-server and has a discord account

[north patio]

he's quite active on excelsior, handling admin stuff there

[amber atlas]

I like the one on the right way more. Is that the old or the new one?

I actually really like the recent increases in difficulty. Career was always way too easy and actually taught new players bad weapon design in some cases. The newer, more powerful ships are still off meta enough to be interesting.

With the monolith paintstyles I agree tho. Old monolith paint was more pastel and more complex. Not to say that the new paint styles are bad, but there was a distinct shift towards a kind of jarring boldness to the strokes.

[vivid ember]

That's the new one

Subjective opinion i suppose

[amber atlas]

Maybe it's the case that new ships are a mixed bag. I can see what you guys mean with too meta-esque with the missile orbiters. But in this thread alone there are many examples of excellent new additions - both in terms of difficulty and aesthetics.

[limber summit]

Okay I'm curious as to this thread's thoughts on this ship

[echo pulsar]

Looks good to me

[amber atlas]

No. This is probably exactly what people here mean by "soulless".

[limber summit]

I'm very impressed that the first two responses are directly in opposition

[amber atlas]

lol yeah

[flat basalt]

my rust is getting to me

I can't give a single thought

though I'd say it has some personality to it

[amber atlas]

But why would this be fine? This is just a wall with one gun type. It's boring. Not only in concept but also boring to fight against. It's not for career.

[amber atlas]

that personality type being "bland".

The paint looks cool, but that's all it has going for it. The shape even detracts from the paint.

[flat basalt]

did I drop my crown and pass it on to you
you're sounding exactly like me

[amber atlas]

...when I get going... ^^

[twilit heart]

Nice rendition of the ship, I like it

[amber atlas]

I'm baffled. What do you see in it?

[flat basalt]

it's very barebones and fragile nature contrast monolith from where I see it

[twilit heart]

I generally like that type of shape of ship, and the paint's pretty good too

Also a bit of bias from my end

[amber atlas]

that too yes

[flat basalt]

I'd say it actually helps it rather than hurting it

[amber atlas]

I guess you like walls

[flat basalt]

I dunno
this is probably just me trying to subconsciously damage control

[twilit heart]

It's a bit more than just a regular wall, it's got those split thrusters and reactors at the back too

[limber summit]

Really? I was agreeing that the scaffolding-heavy look might lend it well to the FSR. What do you think is the reason for this opinion?

[amber atlas]

You think it helps the ship that it's not following monolith design philosophy while still carrying its colours?

[flat basalt]

funny contrast brings personality

[amber atlas]

Yes, those side features are the only good thing about it aesthetically. But it's basically just a wall.

[north patio]

i feel like it's imbalanced, design-wise

[flat basalt]

chalk it up to me being bad at game design I'm done here

[north patio]

a very big and wide front and then 2 little nubs for a back

idk it just isn't really a shape that properly makes sense, imo

in contrast to the second ship you painted in the stream, it's very obvious that its design isn't based on aesthetics or wanting to be a monolith ship, it's apparent that it was originally or was based on a ship made to be effective

[twilit heart]

Sometimes you got to get a bit more creative when building in space, since any shape in space works equally

Not all things have to be a brick or stick

[north patio]

very incorrect from a realism standpoint

it works in-game, and i will agree that this shape makes for an effective ship

[twilit heart]

Unless your ship will enter an atmosphere, there is no drag in real life to make massive inefficiencies from the shape of a ship in space

[north patio]

drag isn't everything

you need to worry about storing fuel, heat dissipation, radiation shielding, crew habitation space, and a bunch of other things

but that's besides the point and not relevant to the discussion

[twilit heart]

Why bring that up

Don't be so single-shape minded, get a little creative with the shapes

Else it will only make it even more bland to do the same shape and paint the 7th time in a row

[north patio]

there's variation possible without making a ship look unbalanced and structurally odd

[echo pulsar]

I think you should add this to the game tbh

[echo pulsar]

Square cube law 🗿

[limber summit]

A wall of disposable guns is extremely realistic. Maybe not traditionally spaceship-shaped but with the lack of drag it'd be good for minimizing damage to actually important components

I appreciate that but I want to see more discussion Yuuki

[echo pulsar]

You want my genuine thoughts? I thought you were trolling so i treated it as such

[twilit heart]

It's kind of like a regular monolith ship, but due to company cheap-ness a few budget cuts made the ship look a little less stable

[echo pulsar]

Wall of guns is not particularly realistic. Generally spaceships and vehicles need to be reasonably thick/large and not as long due to the principle of square cube law and general durability mechanics - something that is excessively large in one direction and small in another automatically provokes the image of flimsiness because in real life it would be flimsy and ineffective. Square cube law also dictates that as you make something longer and thinner respectively, the volume greatly decreases. This is why i feel a lot of these ships look unrealistic and strange as they dont really fit in with real life engineering principles to a point that they look inprobable and strange, and not in a way that is interesting

Obviously cosmoteer is not a realism based game, but when the designs (spaceships) are a concept rooted in reality but then largely divorce from it, i dont always enjoy that

[twilit heart]

A sandbox that you limit with reality

[echo pulsar]

The ways youre diverging from reality dont look particularly good imo

[twilit heart]

We don't actually have these types of ships in real life, only theoretically do these principles work in this environment, so it isn't really true reality

Maybe it might be in the far future that a wall of guns is the best strategy for ship design

[echo pulsar]

I really really doubt it

By all fundamental engineering principles it does not make sense

And also like combat effectiveness

Theres a reason tanks, ships, planes are almost all longer than they are wide/tall

Its not just for aerodynamics

[twilit heart]

We're talking about space warfare here, the most effective solution is shooting a laser minutes in advance from the far distant location of the enemy with enough power to melt the crew inside, it doesn't matter what shape you have if you get hit, but that is besides the point in a sandbox game without these types of mechanics

[echo pulsar]

Ok?

Again saris claimed it was “incredibly realistic” which i denied

Youre correct that cosmoteer is not realistic

Ok i dont think im being clear enough on why i dislike these “unrealistic designs”

Fundamentally theres nothing wrong with a design being unrealistic

But generally things that look like they could exist and function in real life, and look well made, are more aesthetically pleasing

Things that look like they work look better a lot of the time

[viscid kindle]

i didn't realize these were 4 pics, it looked like 2 pics and the right one is face palming lmao

[limber summit]

I meant in general about the ship not sci fi speculation

[echo pulsar]

?

[limber summit]

I am responding to your response; I wasn't asking your opinion on a wall of disposable guns, rather, the ship itself that I posted earlier

[echo pulsar]

Oh

Idk

I dont like how it looks and it doesnt look fun to fight against but thats not really substantive criticism as of itself

Do you want a part by part critique?

[hard trail]

Funny dom meta ship
Honestly it's not too bad all things considered, it's glass but it won't break down most player ships before ammo runs out

It's very slow so kiting with blasters is an easy option, which I like
Railkites r pain but some play into range goes funny

All in all like it wouldn't be a good ship at all obviously but some concepts could b expanded to smth much more unique

[limber summit]

See, here's what I'm asking, adressed to Yuuki but anyone else too;

• Why don't you like how it looks
• Why doesn't it look fun to fight against
• What does look fun to fight?

• What is fun to fight

• Why do you think its not spaceship shaped
• What is spaceship shaped
• Why does it "looks good to me" despite everything else you said?

[hard trail]

One sex

SEC

FUUUUUUUUUUCK

[lavish torrent]

hole post ruined now

shutting this down now

[hard trail]

hole

[plain field]

absoute backfire

[limber summit]

Wow

Even the commentary got hit

[plain field]

the first thing not the second

[ocean brook]

only seems fair for criticism in both directions here. Not aiming for conflict here. just internal reflection if that is the case
I wonder if you(anybody reading this) would have the same opinion about Saris's new ship if you did not know the pvp meta and related ships.

[limber summit]

Lets just say I positioned it right next to a domination ship for a reason...

[plain field]

a realy good method is to treat the ships like cake, who cares if you dont like strawberry cake, it's still a free cake

and cake comes in many forms and flavors,

so if you are disapointed, just wait, more cake will come eventualy, and perhaps it might be chocolate

[hard trail]

Okai silly aside:

• I actually don't mind the design too much - It's certainly not a square or other basic shape, making it stand out
• It actually does to me, having a variety of strengths and weaknesses
• • For example despite being short ranged, it can't go at 95 m/s to catch up to kite play anyways, making kiting an actually viable tactic
• Anything that isn't a meta generalist/requires a competitive UL to simply win without losing more of ur ship than it did, regardless of ur design skill
• • (this type of balancing highly punishes casual play as u will never be rewarded for building decently, only for having more expensive ships at best)
• I do not, aerodynamics do not exist in space, anything can be any shape within structural integrity allowance
• ^
• Final thoughts are that ur a lil rusty on paint but that the variety of strengths n weaknesses as well as having range actually play a role (no missiles) makes it cool to me

If it was like an Imp dom meta cannon ship I would hav different things to say
Same goes for if it was any of the current PvP main use archetypes

[hoary tusk]

Ooo I really like it, when fighting it I imagine you hope you can reach the two crs/ers (either through the cannons or by orbiting), before it obliterates your armor/shields, and that is fun imo

You know you can easily take it down, but it contrasts with it being able to easily take you down

The shape is also original (for career)

And I like it doesn't have an insane amount of speed (I hate the speed meta)

[ocean brook]

If ships have already been made with an unused difficulty marker. I would like to see Walt add shapes that match those difficulty indications when we first see their red triangle indicator appear.

This would give players natural feedback on ships they should avoid fighting until they are ready, while also enabling architects more freedom to make some stronger ships.

The only real issue I have with career ships is when I have a seemingly nonsensical difficulty spike that pushes me into railkite/2ship flanking. If I had some way to know an enemy ship was famous ingame for being a combat powerhouse, I would be more careful in how I attacked it rather than barrel into it like all the others that felt like no threat. I believe it would be healthy for the game environment when players understand that combat difficulty does not always accurately translate into a reward (other than fame) for victory.

I personally enjoy using rails in campaign a ton. But this is more because I havent found near as much enjoyment in building other weapon types for that game mode.

[echo pulsar]

I dont like how its 90% made of cannons; it looks strange and off-putting and not particularly inspired or interesting to look at. Its just a line of cannons with 2 thrust modules behind it. I dont think its gonna be fun to fight against because you just either outrange/outspeed it and chip it down or instantly lose if it gets close to you at a similar cost bracket.

It also uses a single, quite straightforward weapon type. Small cannons inaccurately do large damage up close, so your only course of action is to stay away and chip it down in a drawn out fight.

An example of fun ships to fight in that difficulty could be maybe the effigy. This ship makes you first of all think of where to target, since targeting the armor brick in the front will lead to it chipping you down, you have to properly micro target your weapons to snipe off at least the disruptors. If your ship uses shields you have to make the decision to keep them on and have them leach a massive amount of power or turn them off and try to survive the small lasers long enough to kill its disruptors. Plus a diag ship at that cost bracket is interesting at least

I think its not spaceship shaped because nothing about that ship is really functional or inkeeping with both (less importantly) the archetypal “spaceship” aesthetic which exists for a reason due to it looking good, and (more importantly) looking entirely improbable and non-functional. By many physics and engineering principles that ship should not be functional, or existing, and for me thats an important part of aesthetics (that these things should baseline look like they could function). If a ship just doesnt look like something that could functionally exist, it kinda hurts my immersion in career. Especially as someone that rps every career playthrough as some sort of character/faction, i enjoy being able to be immersed a bit more than the average player. (Cont next msg, char limit hit

[echo pulsar]

Something “spaceship-y” for me would be perhaps many of the older mono ships with their long hulls, or maybe on a front closer to home the bomb anchor.

As for looks good to me, i thought u were trolling with that ship and i also thought it would be pretty funny if that ship got added to career. Its not that bad and not really the main thing i have an issue with new builtins

Ill find some examples of both ships that i think are fun to fight and ships that i think look spaceship-y when i get to my laptop

However, theres nothing particularly wrong with it, and its not really the main embodiment of what i have a complaint with with the new career ships. Its still unique and interesting at least just because similar ships dont exist in career yet

[twilit heart]

Just to note, you don't have to chip the front, it's so exposed at the back any small 2nd ship you use would be able to kill it from the back

The thing is with a " space ship " looking ship, being a bland stick shape, is that cannons don't do well there, they need front surface to do anything, if all ships became the same shape with the same weapons then the game might look " realistic" but it won't be any better, you just got to suspend disbelief for a second and enjoy what you have

[hoary tusk]

Going through a lc on both sides seems to be pretty easy, since by the time you encounter this ship you should have enough weapons

I would dislike it if the crs were hidden behind an armor brick but this is ok

[twilit heart]

It's also an undefended straight line past the cannon Infront of the reactors

[hoary tusk]

Yeah that's what I mean

[strange glacier]

Internal thrusters are a weird thing for me: I really dislike them on a philosophical and aesthetic level, but they make too much sense mechanically not to use. It's always a little weird to have enemy ships just sort of choose not to use design features that the player ships will use shamelessly, though.

[strange glacier]

+1! I keep wanting to go back and play a run where I don't just build rail fans, but I literally don't know how to make anything else effective past difficulty 10 or something.

[plain field]

whats the curint list of renamed ships? i know can opener was renamed to desperado, and da'i was renamed to dia, are there any others i'm missing?

[echo pulsar]

very general example of what im talking about

imo the second ships look way more cool and menacing even tho their paint is objectively less polished and technically impressive due to their age

[mild jungle]

I agree, we always need more crazy geometry

Cosmoteer is about a lot more than just a big barge with guns™️

[limber summit]

I can't believe you don't like the strangeness of the Magistrate

[echo pulsar]

Which is that?

[limber summit]

I'm leaving this thread

[echo pulsar]

🚎

[hoary tusk]

top middle

it's pretty good imo, the cr is hidden in the middle behind lcs

[toxic sable]

However they have a lot of uniqueness going for them, and the general hull shape, whilst a rather typical sci-fi style, is really cool.

Tall ships are cooler than Wall ships in my opinion...

Don't you diss Magistrate like that though 😭

[hardy iris]

I agree, there's a balance between looks good and plays good, both inspiring creativity and being fun to fight not a suped up death machine that's perfect in every way

[hoary tusk]

(I think it's important to mention that even a suped up death machine can be fun to fight, tho it needs to be fair and not a dom ship)

[hardy iris]

True, kiting a death machine isn't really fun though, it can be in small quantities though but every battle shouldn't be kiting your opponent, it shouldn't be the only option to fight those ships

[twilit heart]

i'd say domination ships would probably be easier to kill than elimination ships, as 1 is made as a dispoasable in a group, and the other is alone

[toxic sable]

I think we need super dedicated anti-kiter ships to punish that kind of playstyle, the fact that the most boring and anticlimactic way to win is also the most optimal one, sucks.

[hardy iris]

hard yes

[toxic sable]

The death machine rammer ships, unfortunately only encourage kiting as it's the safest way to dispose them. Missile orbis like Daedalus completely break vs railkites.

[strange glacier]

Something about nukes.
Is there a way to deal with the expensive nuke ships that isn't "never have them launch"?

[echo pulsar]

Try to dodge desperately

Or surprisingly, ramming, since they usually only have em forward facing so if you can survive the approach and knock them on their side youve basically won

[hardy iris]

Realistically these ships shouldn't exist since they're very inefficient in cost to kill

[echo pulsar]

Wellllllll

Not necessarily (500k railkite)

[edgy spire]

Realitically ships are supposed to win the enemy so

[hardy iris]

You could use a sacrificial ship that draws fire.

[echo pulsar]

Only realistically protects against 1-2 volleys, and its cost inefficient and the enemy often ignores sacrificial ships since they almost always target the most dangerous ship

Yet again incentivizing kiting of some style

[hardy iris]

Maybe destroying a nuke should blow it up destroying other nukes, missiles, and shells in the explosion radius?

Like nuclear flak

[idle gorge]

reminds me of that one nova drift enemy that rams you

[echo pulsar]

Hamahead

[stoic gate]

I completely agree with this. The monoliths large panels on these new ships also do not make sense. Usually they are segmented or have unique details

These new ships also feel generally annoying to deal with and it is terrible that we have to see this. Not all ships are fun

Especially meta ships

[toxic sable]

Dodge.

Nukes are some of the easiest weapons to consistently dodge because of their long priming time.

Alternatively, spread damage.

[shut sparrow]

can we stop posting on this thread

[edgy spire]

yea

[hoary tusk]

nah

[vivid ember]

No.*

I dislike the thread name but there’s a legitimate reason that it exists - even if it hasn’t been explained in the clearest way and with calmer tone (and harassing people was not okay either)

But imo it was a better alternative to flooding the built-in fixing and feedback thread. people are allowed to have their voices heard, and the legitimate concerns that were brought up here are ones I actually agree with a lot - I find many of the older, wackier built-ins more interesting to fight than some of the newer meta-wannabes especially in stupid challenges like “beat the game with a cute aesthetic ship” where half the newer ships just keel over and die to a dozen cannon shots to the rear

That all being said, a new thread with a different name and all the horrible harassment removed would probably be a good idea

[edgy spire]

"no"
"but actually yes"

i'm sobbing

[cunning swan]

yes = no

trust me

[vivid ember]

Create new thread but do not close discussion

[edgy spire]

grilling you

[vivid ember]

Happy?

[edgy spire]

actually
CHOMP

jokes and laughs aside i'm sorry

what i said
it was all satire all along

[vivid ember]

It’s okie

[cunning swan]

no vore

[edgy spire]

the ears

different joke

[cunning swan]

but ears
don't exist

do they?

[spare vault]

a

[dense kettle]

I agree there is something off with some of the newer build-ins that tend to ratify the more we backtrack the game history.
I think the lack of a general consensus, the use of improper language, bold texts insults/swear words really did not helped the thread to be considered a constructive and civilized debate.

A new thread would be perfect!

[toxic sable]

Agreed, we need new thread. We can discuss the admittedly bright future of built-ins without all the saltiness and rude behaviours.

And whatever the outcome of the discussion might be, nobody will ever be able to dissuade me from thinking Kingslayer is a 10/10 ship :>

[shadow atlas]

I think the new civilian ships look nice btw

[hard trail]

I do like the fresh Cabal arms depot in whatever build I'm using
Dunno who made it but props on the paint

Either way if a new thread is necessary, so be it but please just get it done

[spare vault]

Kingslayer is 11/10

[toxic sable]

Saris.

[limber summit]

This is my response to this thread as a subject and more importantly why it has failed in its intended goal
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18UitemzLLRIi05UCh7QOtHwZM176MLqxdYAQpDxQvCs/edit?usp=sharing

The creation of a new thread will likely not change anything unless my message is understood

[hoary tusk]

Very good response

I think we should make a new thread, where instead of trying to solve everything at once, we focus on one aspect at a time, giving good reasoning for our opinions and providing both examples we like and dislike

[echo pulsar]

Sounds like a good idea. I feel pretty bad for how i conducted myself for the most part pertaining to this topic. A thread dedicated to more specific, dialed in issues could be a good idea though idk how much i would personally do there

[hard trail]

Understood - also showing involvement is much appreciated, it is highly infuriating to feel like talking to a brick wall
I'll probably respond with a detailed reply at some point today or tomorrow that covers the vibe better than the initial anger - to say I was pissed during initial testing with these is a massive understatement
(and yes, I did read the entire thing)

[hoary tusk]

Also I'd change the "soulless" to something like "not unique" or "forgettable"

So that it doesn't come off as an insult immediately

[ashen basin]

Forgetable isnt that much better though

[hoary tusk]

I think the term should be the first to be explained

And I don't want to write a paragraph everytime I want to say something like that

Other alternatives are welcome tho

[ashen basin]

Thats fair

[hard trail]

I have to be honest
Any salt aside, I am heavily biased against the ships due to being decently into game design and seeing many games die to balancing issues
Soulless wasn't exactly the right word but I doubt I would have called them anything better even if I chose an alternative
The be all end all is that to me these ships are highly problematic in terms of balancing especially, likely more than enough to cause many a casual player to leave, which to me is blatantly offensive
Subjective or not that is my basic view on them

[hoary tusk]

Hmm we should really discuss this in a new thread, first I'd define "soulless" or any alternative, then I'd focus on difficulty

[hard trail]

Another point to bring up is the common mention of campaign difficulty tiers, one I've been more or less neglecting to mention since it was a decent point and I thought it fair
I then realized, uh
...So what are the average people supposed to do until those get implemented? It's not like the difficulty exists as a playable option currently

[hoary tusk]

Hmm is "Built-in design feedback thread" a good name?

[hard trail]

That already exists

There is another for specific builtin feedback, this was made because I had a bite to direct at a general, huge list

[hoary tusk]

Well it has the same purpose, just with a slow mode

Maybe "General Built-in design feedback thread"?

[hard trail]

I also ran it by Antithesis and they approved the name and initial message at the time

[ashen basin]

So architects should rework the entire ship pool until a career change (which is currently being worked on) is done?

[hoary tusk]

I think there shouldn't be "new" in the title since I'd like to mention good and bad ships regardless of when they were added

[hard trail]

Here the term "bad ship design" specifically does not mean bad logistics or weak points, and honestly I don't know of many older ships that are like the new ones

Any examples would be more than appreciated

(other than the Imp cannon walls they have been flogged to death already)

[shut sparrow]

saris showing off his communication skills

well written response

[hoary tusk]

As an example of what I'd consider an underwhelming ship that's also old I would mention Stomper.

Good features:
Big diagonal paint stripe - a dominant part of the paint of a ship that's either completely unique or not commonly found among other ships instantly makes the ship stay in my head (another example of this would be Umbrage's demon head thingy)
Using both energy and projectile weapons - makes you think about what to target first depending on your ship
Armored insides - generally makes the fight last longer and makes you think from what direction to approach your targeted part

Bad features:
Lack of armor in the front - makes the shield die immediately, thus making the fight way shorter - easy fix
Wall of weapons - placing all weapons in a line is usually boring (except for ships like Crankshaft that make it their main design aspect) - the energy weapons could instead be placed horizontally along the big paint stripe, further highlighting it, and gaining a more interesting shape similar to Wayward (a hole in one half of the ship with weapons in it) (because of the ships being in the same "family", looking similar is not a bad thing imo, as long as the family isn't too big)
No interesting movement of the ship - "just stands there and waits who's gonna die" - the fix could be utilising the boost thrusters, tho the architects can't change that, gotta ask one of the devs

Summary: Interesting paint aspect, but the fight is otherwise pretty boring, therefore being forgettable. While the armored insides would make the fight longer and more interesting, lacking armor in front of the shield outweighs it.

[north patio]

this is overall good, but i will dispute a couple things

aesthetics are an inherently subjective topic, it's pretty much impossible to define whether something is objectively better aesthetically. for this reason, i am of the opinion that subjective opinion should be held with regard on this topic. for inherently subjective topics, the majority holding one opinion essentially turns that opinion into objectivity. beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but if most beholders find something beautiful, that something can be assumed to be generally aesthetically superior. some people may find it worse, and that is fair, and is why it is inherently subjective. but for the most part, aesthetic things intended to be beheld by a lot of people should generally be tuned to the aesthetic tastes of the majority of those people

and as for the lack of explanation, some people (myself included) find it difficult to actually pin down what is actually bad about things, especially aesthetic ones. in terms of combat this is less of an issue, and people should definitely explain why things are bad to fight against, however the difference between an aesthetically pleasing ship and one that just 'doesn't fit' can be difficult to convey

i definitely agree that hostility against the architects is counterproductive and should be avoided

[hoary tusk]

fuck you discord formatting

[wraith frost]

Bit of an off-comment, but, Saris, I thank you for using a dyslexia-friendly font.

Additionally, you can still offer praise for the parts that you do like, and that could theoretically be pursued and prioritized more in the future.
I'd like to point out that there has been a pin in #ships for a long time specifically about giving advice to new players that reads similarly - although to put it bluntly, the architects are not new players, and the preface of this message seems to be taken too much to heart, as shown by the statement after. (message in question: #ships message from 0neye)

Now, although I did not participate in the thread in any significant form because of my lack of knowledgability regarding aesthetic design, I will say that even if I had a strong opinion, I would not have said it for the very same reasons you highlight here. I've read the entire thread and did not want to touch it again until this response.

I look forward to healthy discussion, and I will be reading along the way; have fun!

[ocean brook]

https://discord.com/channels/314103695568666625/1256701121003786241
I made a new thread primarily to change the title with JarHead's permission. Hope it can be a positive and actionable version of this feedback thread. There is feedback the architects can use to improve the game. They should be discussed in a constructive manner so the game can feel more fun for us all. Hope the sad things that happened in this thread will remain here while we move forward.

I wish all the best to the Architects and those that enjoy the game enough to have such strong feelings with their feedback 🙂

[compact kettle]

i doubt that Anyone with under 100h in Cosmoteer can even remotely defeat these newish-meta-built-ins anywhere near that price class.

that said, i also like em, it is a good showcase, how to build an optimal Ship

I had a similar Suggestion a While ago, it wasnt rly about the Aesthetics, more about how frustrating it is to fight some of the Built-Ins.

some of them are borderline griefing the Player and force them to build a giant Kite.

[cunning swan]

why downvote lol

[vivid ember]

tera downvotes everything

[cunning swan]

hmmmm
welll, all I can say is
jesus christ, issat le bible reference?

[twilit heart]

untrue

[dense kettle]

What is a dyslexia friendly font exactly?

[dense kettle]

Firstly I want to thanks you for being the only architect that dived into this and not simply ignore it.
I have other things to say but I will check the new thread first before saying anything that became irrelevant.

[mortal veldt]

wanna bet?

(I am very bad at building ships)

I have no idea if I could, but it might be interesting to give it a try if you name a specific ship

[hard trail]

If you want somethin counterable, Destructor
If u want to feel pain, Augustus or Thunderbird

Kingslayer is also pretty on the pain scale

[mortal veldt]

https://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/advice/employers/creating-a-dyslexia-friendly-workplace/dyslexia-friendly-style-guide

[mortal veldt]

There are nearly 900 messages in this thread, and many of them not quite meeting the mark for "constructive" criticism. Saris' engagement with the thread is excellent, but I don't think it's fair to expect the architects to engage considering the general hostility and other issues that Saris has outlined.

[amber atlas]

Generally, you win your first career by outspending the enemy, not by being a better designer.

(I haven't even beaten career lol but you know what I mean ^^)

[dense kettle]

I agree and never said otherwise.
It's just that if saris never engaged no one would have changed behavior

[junior dagger]

Hey, I have something to say. Maybe a bit of helpful input. No toxicity intended.

I don't play career, but I do play a mod that we make together on my discord. We have agreed on a set of rules to keep a certain asthetic for our ships in the games that we play together. Perhaps the architects could learn something like this? Actually write out a set of rules about things certain factions of vanilla ships are and aren't allowed to do. This way people can choose which faction they want to fight. Some will be harder or easier based on the given ruleset.

Here I will post the list of rules we use below for our games below:

Broadsider rules:

1. Standard cannons, large cannons, flak, chainguns, PD, light lasers, heavy lasers, disrupters, macro cannons and Ion beams must not face forwards.
2. When weapons are on the broadsides, weapon counts must be mirrored on both sides of your ship with the intention that they are equally effective in combat.
3. You may have 2 torpedo launchers for every 1 million of ship cost. (For example a 2 million dollar ship may use four torpedo launchers). Torpedo launchers must face forwards.
4. You may have 1 deckgun for every 250k of ship cost. (For example, a 1 million dollar ship can have 4 deck guns).
5. You may have a single railgun per ship. Since one of something can't be mirrored, it has to face either forwards or backwards.

Now this is just an example, but it gives you an idea. This optimizes for ships that are broadsiders almost exclusively. We just like playing with broadsiders. But the point is that the architects could make sort of arbitrary restrictions on themselves in the same manner for each faction.

[lucid sandal]

and why is this here?
broadsiders is a hellhole worse than career...
Im unsure what it is ment to say

If your trying to show a diffrent ruleset, then i guess
but i dont know what else this would do

[junior dagger]

I don't really know what that means lol. I'm just talking about the general vibe that ships are soulless. If each faction follows their own specific ruleset its soullessness or lack thereof can be measured in some tangible way.

Which might be helpful.

🤷🏻‍♂️

[limber summit]

What is 'this place.' This thread? Twrecks' server?

[lucid sandal]

ah

not the server

the game

ah i should of worded that better

[limber summit]

Cosmoteer itself is a hellhole?

[lucid sandal]

there we go

fixed

[junior dagger]

I didn't think you were trying to say something hurtful. Thanks for clarifying lol

[limber summit]

Oh, yes

Admittedly broadsiders are quite possibly the worst archetype to exist, but Twrecks does posit an interesting thought exercise

[lucid sandal]

the gamemode broadsiders (it can almost be counted as that) is more of a hellhole than career

[junior dagger]

Yeah I'm not trying to claim everything should be broadsiders in vanilla career.

Only that I think it'd be helpful to actually write down some strict rules about how each factions should produce their ships.

If they can't use certain weapons, or are only allowed to use weapons in certain ways.

[jolly terrace]

I like trains

[junior dagger]

You could have a faction that's only allowed to have their weapons on the rear of their ship for example. An extreme example but yes.

The extremeness of the example is only intended insofar as it makes the point.

[lucid sandal]

i think broadsides has a even worse learning curve than elim, thats my thought

[junior dagger]

Oh certainly.

[lucid sandal]

and i said elim was unwelcoming as hell

[junior dagger]

But this isn't about broadsiders.

I'm talking about career lol

[lucid sandal]

mmm

true

i love career, probably because ive learned it well and dont lose 95% of the time

elim is about a 85% lose rate

and dom is 95, along with broadsiders

but career is like me dying 40% of the time

yess even on the hardest

but back to the topic of this post

the new ships have madde me have some new ideas

and made career a slight more challenge

so i dont mind them too much

[junior dagger]

Yeah I understand.

Broadsiders is hard because we have a few people who are very good at it lol

But yeah I just mean in terms of the way ships are made for career

It'd be interesting if they actually had to have rules they followed. That way the excellent players who build them don't end up falling down into a meta of building them, which makes them stale and soulless.

Build them each to their own meta

A lot of the players who make career ships are ex elim players and such. So they naturally bring that design philosophy with them. That's a difficult thing to shake when you have 1000 + hours of building ships in that particular style.

And it's very reasonable that they might find it difficult to make less efficient designs on purpose.

[lucid sandal]

its a bit like elim, destined to die out unless there is a better way to introduce newer players

[jolly terrace]

im gonna pay T to incorporate broadsiders mod into career eventually @lucid sandal

[lucid sandal]

what is that ment to do

pointless statment.

[echo pulsar]

i dont think elim is destined to die out tho

at least not as bad as broadsiders

[junior dagger]

Yeah I don't think broadsiders is either lol

[echo pulsar]

many people have been actively getting into elim

[junior dagger]

Same with broadsiders.

[lucid sandal]

if more like you come along

yess

but when i joined

it was certinly close

i was stated as one of the new players who remotely stayed

[junior dagger]

I feel like this is off topic Andy.

[lucid sandal]

ah well we can move the convesation

[junior dagger]

Yeah I just wanted to deliver some ideas that maybe hadn't been discussed by the architects.

It looks like my ideas have been recieved.

[echo pulsar]

what i mean is more that its a lot more niche

broadsiders i mean

even more than elim

[jolly terrace]

as a totally not brainwashed enjoyer of broadsiders I disagree

i'm joking lol

[junior dagger]

No you are right yuuki. Broadsiders is the deepest part of the iceberg for cosmoteer players lol

But again off topic

We are talking about career.

The shallowest part.

:/

[jolly terrace]

oooooooo

[lucid sandal]

i recon it goes
career
creative
BNB
all thy other pvp modes
b r o a d s i d e r s

[echo pulsar]

i think elim is more active than bnb

[jolly terrace]

what about air bnb?

[junior dagger]

🤣

It depends if you are on holidays while you play cosmoteer.

I suspect some people are.

[lucid sandal]

i mean skill n shit

not popular

[echo pulsar]

skill requirement?

[lucid sandal]

like how much u need to learn/relearn

[echo pulsar]

creative

:/

[lucid sandal]

i put it second

nbecuase most do career first

[jolly terrace]

true broadsiders is a bit lacking there, almost no targetting

[junior dagger]

Interestingly broadsiders was designed to be more accessible than traditional domination. It just failed at it lol.

[echo pulsar]

im just confused now

why is broadsiders the highest skill variant

[lucid sandal]

becuase

dear

gid

*go

goia

i cant type

hold on

[junior dagger]

It changes so much of vanilla that it's practically a different game.

[lucid sandal]

[ restarting system ]

[echo pulsar]

hm ok

that doesnt mean it straight up takes more skill though

[junior dagger]

Not at all

[jolly terrace]

i started doing art for the mod so i'm hype to add more weapons and parts

[lucid sandal]

i said skill
AND how much you have to learn/relearn

[echo pulsar]

ok

[jolly terrace]

sometimes i go cross eyed so it makes broadsiders extra difficult

[shadow atlas]

This already exists. There was a document describing this, but I don't have a link or something.

[junior dagger]

Oh really?

I didn't actually know

Well then this whole thread is a load of hot air