Release Candidate 0.24.0 - Chainguns!

[hollow ferry]

Cosmoteer release candidate 0.24.0 is now available for testing!

This release candidate adds the long-awaited "Chaingun", a powerful rotary cannon that increases its rate of fire the longer it shoots and hides behind a protective shell while not shooting. Additional ammunition magazines can be attached to increase its duration and rate of fire.

This release candidate also has a good number of other quality-of-life improvements, bug fixes, and new modding features.

Thanks for testing!

Full patch notes: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/799600/view/6789795183860996115

[sleek gale]

AYO!!

[hollow ferry]

(Also, I will be traveling the next few days, so I probably won't be able to post an RC2 until next week. Thanks in advance for your patience!)

[hollow ferry]

Also the firing arc is currently MUCH too low (40 degrees). Going to make it 120 for the next RC.

[sleek gale]

thought it was a little odd with how the turret looks

[dull agate]

Thank you for your hard work Walt! We've all been waiting with great anticipation! for this RC!

[leaden patrol]

the gun pod looks awsome!

[rancid gale]

I don’t need to sleep tonight anyway, chaingun > sleep

[hollow ferry]

Actually now we're talking about making the turret extend out further and increasing the arc to around 200 so that you can use them as side-mounted weapons.

[sleek gale]

oh I so want to see that

[celest coral]

Yes

[leaden patrol]

then we can see the gunpod in its full glory

[celest coral]

So, saving a ship mid shot with focus fire chaingun on makes it to where upon spawning said ship it will continue firing

unsure if this is a bug or not

makes the ship photo look cool

[sterile folio]

i feel like the spread can be reduced, even at short distances the chaingun misses by a lot

[dull agate]

Maybe I'm missing something but it appears we can't fire it manually in direct control? We can force fire it with the K button but that's different

[celest coral]

you can, well at least I did at one point then couldn't

[dull agate]

Same thing happened to me

[celest coral]

also these two are in ai mode, allegiance pirate. they fired one volley and now don't shoot again

now the third is here, still not shooting

ah

yep that makes sense

turns out the way to load magazines is through the bottom

[leaden patrol]

i'd love another side mounted weapon, actually

[celest coral]

so if they aren't loaded the chaingun can't fire

[leaden patrol]

i always wanted a laser blaster but BIGGER

[unreal bobcat]

Chinese no numbers

[leaden patrol]

minor issue

[celest coral]

ooo

[leaden patrol]

file to test with

[celest coral]

the gun clips into the armour as it leaves the pod

has limited penetration

[sleek gale]

deck gun 2.0

[leaden patrol]

side mounted deck gun

[celest coral]

ah, so you can just drive into a wall while the gun is firing and this occurs

lol

who needs armour anyways

[sleek gale]

does that bypass shields

[celest coral]

hmm

[sterile folio]

i feel like this should work

[celest coral]

no

[bold vortex]

This is already known about, just not fixed yet.

[celest coral]

ah ok

[bold vortex]

Shots appearing inside of other ships isn't though.

[sleek gale]

#ships message try large shields

[rancid gale]

You guys should make the ammo storages blow up in chain reaction like the railgun

Because funny

[leaden patrol]

in the meantime we should fix this for both chaingun and cannons because bypassing armor is poopoo

[celest coral]

yep

so probably does for Small shield I just haddn't clipped it right

[sleek gale]

so it requires you to be right next to the shield

[celest coral]

yee

[fast hound]

System.InvalidOperationException: No component named 'Turret' in part 'cosmoteer.chaingun'.
09/13/2023 21:37:21 | at Cosmoteer.Ships.Parts.Part.GetComponent[T](ID1 id) in C:\Users\walt\Documents\Code\Cosmoteer\Source\Ships\Parts\Part.cs:line 719 09/13/2023 21:37:21 | at Cosmoteer.Ships.Parts.ChainablePartComponent.OnAddedToPart(Part part) in C:\Users\walt\Documents\Code\Cosmoteer\Source\Ships\Parts\ChainablePartComponent.cs:line 119 09/13/2023 21:37:21 | at Cosmoteer.Ships.Parts.Part.AddComponents(IList1 components) in C:\Users\walt\Documents\Code\Cosmoteer\Source\Ships\Parts\Part.cs:line 631
09/13/2023 21:37:21 |

Trying to build chaingun turret on existing ship... happened twice. Looks like file path is hardcoded to "walt"? Someone here named @hollow ferry ?

[sleek gale]

C:\Users[username]\Saves Games\Cosmoteer[Steam ID]\Logs

[celest coral]

turns out I had it's allegiance wrong, granted it can still penetrate as long as there isn't a second shield behind it with a gap

if there is no gap it will penetrate both

[fast hound]

Full restart and same issue. Seems strange considering it appears nobody else is having this issue...

Issue happens both with editing an existing ship and creating a new one

Does not happen in creative mode, just my saved career game :/

[fallow tulip]

heyyo

[rich prawn]

fully reloading before you can fire again seems too counterintuitive and accidentally makes the weapon awful if you use direct control, it stops if you move your arc too far

[fallow tulip]

chaingun testing info
it takes 3 chaingun magazines + the ammo in the chaingun to just reach full fire rate
the time its still spinning is longer than thought but the spinning animation doesnt show

imo very strange that the magazines cant have side doors

you cannot load magazines to be able to fire again if you dont also reload the gun itself

[boreal fjord]

I don’t know if it’s just me or the crew is kind of slow to start reloading the gun and mags after it goes back into shield mode

[rich prawn]

strange lag that I suspect is from the new multithread thing

[boreal fjord]

I also am experiencing that

[rich prawn]

not really able to replicate other than spamming chainguns

[digital bluff]

I would be inclined to agree, it's kinda annoying

The magazines, seeing as they are directly connected to the weapon

should be able to do it anyways

oh and just because one part of the conveyor is empty, (say near the rear as the magazine runs though) should not restrict the crew from being unable to load it.

[fallow tulip]

this is the main thing i dislike

[lyric flame]

yes doors should be able to be placed there

magazines upside down would also be cool

3 operators is really sad for space efficiency, because you waste crew if you have 2 bunks per chaingun

[rich prawn]

lotta talking in the exclesior server but nothing here

[leaden patrol]

there should be more talking here

[supple sleet]

Well typically because it's more about testing everything and composing thoughts before shotgunning opinions for Excelsior denizens

[rich prawn]

seems like 3k for magazines are a lot from what they spoke

yeah

[leaden patrol]

makes me wonder how any sort of legit melee weapon would interact with shields

[lyric flame]

magazines would be nice if they were cheaper

[leaden patrol]

dang i didnt notice that price

[lyric flame]

a damage buff would also be great, they really don't do that much dps, even at full fire rate

[rich prawn]

Monolith industries watching me buy all the "for sale" 3k magazines

[rich prawn]

more dps wouldn't matter if it's too small, currently 500 per shot two-shots corridors, buffing it more below 1k wouldn't do anything for example

it deals less damage than constant nukes*
(not actually true, real damage usually is half from a flat plane,if not a quarter due to armor)

[lyric flame]

oh also, the damage negation doesn't do enough IMO. you stillh ave to protect them to not die

[rich prawn]

idk how that would be helped unless it buffed adjacent armor...

or explosive resistance also increased

higher, because armor stats

[boreal fjord]

I’m pretty fine with where it is I think they just need to make it so you can add doors to the side of the mags and increase the firing arc

And maybe make mags a little cheaper

[leaden patrol]

being able to place it on the sides of ships and have it shoot forwards could make for some real interesting setups

oh i got another weapon idea, for tommorow

[rich prawn]

make it energy based :>

[dull agate]

Agreed, we played a couple matches and were struggling to deal damage to each other

The chaingun's drawbacks are that they require a lot of space between the gun and the magazines. Said magazines also can't be reloaded while firing. These give the impression that the chaingun should be used as a heavy hitting burst weapon. However, the reality is that their damage feels rather underwhelming and other weapons will just deal more DPS with continuous fire.
The ramp up time is quite long as well, meaning that by the time they've reached their maximum firing rate the opponent has had time to manoeuvre away.

Perhaps they could also be given a special attribute such as being more effective against parts that aren't armor. Giving the player an incentive to drill through the opponents armor and taking down their shields to then unleash a burst from the chaingun to cause devastating damage to all of the components

[inner kraken]

Too much investment. Not enough pew.

[lyric flame]

did architects not get to see it early?

pen for the chain gun would be very nice too

[finite socket]

didnt see this mentioned anywhere, so i cant tell if its a bug or a feature: once the speed starts building up, the gun is forced to magdump. bottom left shows the fire button being released but the gun still fires.
also mildly annoying that the gun cant be fired until fully reloaded

[lyric flame]

yeah its weird, not always magdump but mostly

[rich prawn]

did the turrets layer get changed? i don't recall it not having normal maps at all

oh.... it was GA's shenanigans

[pine apex]

lol

man, i cant wait for the LAAT's to be built with this thing once its firing arc gets corrected

[pine apex]

really needs to be a "force feed" button, not being able to fire here would get annoying

also only being able to fire when all the magazines are filled

[last vector]

i can already smell and see people having a ship that orbits around a target raining hell with these chainguns

[last vector]

i kinda like how it misses, its like supressing the weapons systems on the enemy

[pine apex]

seems like the force fire fixes this but still a little annoying

[sleek rover]

yeah for some weird reason the magazines must be full to fire

very unintuitive

[quaint copper]

Getting crashes whenever a ship jumps in my save

a different crash error message about
"No component named 'Turret' in part 'cosmoteer.chaingun'."
while i was constructing the chainguns

[white girder]

It would be cool if the chainguns autoloaded the first empty one near the chaingun kinda like engine rooms

Also loading while firing would be good

[torn palm]

devs missed the fact that Colliders get created/loaded before any other component, but because it was JUST a mod issue, no one cared; TLDR now u cant build chaingun in career and they have to fix it anyway

[sleek rover]

the fix already exists lol

the burden is on you tho

[torn palm]

https://discord.com/channels/314103695568666625/1141630563153887272

[sleek rover]

all components support an IncludeWhenUnderConstruction parameter, which when set to false, means that the game will ignore that component (and not throw any crashes) until the part is constructed

please do a little bit of research before endlessly complaining

[torn palm]

Pls include a doc or make a wiki before brunting with internal only knowledge

[sleek rover]

it's not internal only? It's literally in the game files

[torn palm]

where lmao

[sleek rover]

ion_beam_prism.rules

[torn palm]

why did none tell me that before then; also: modders are supposed to search thru all avaible game files to find stuff like that? naaaaa

[quaint copper]

This is a vanilla unmodded issue now though, can't expect every user to go rooting around in rules files just to let crew build chainguns

[sleek rover]

That's not what I said

[torn palm]

this.

[sleek rover]

obviously walt forgot to add IncludeWhenUnderConstruction = false to the chaingun collider and that needs to be fixed, but for modders, they too need to do the same thing to fix similiar errors

[torn palm]

FOR MODDED: yes but since nothing is documented, u cant just expect people to look thru ALL the files....

we literally now created a git to catch such changes because its noted nowhere that there is now a new function called IncludeWhenUnderConstrution

@sleek rover maybe devs could a small changelog somewhere in Data??? for thing like this, i dont have the time to READ thru whole Cosmoteer to find one new function every time walt publishes a new major update

probably 1/2 the issue modders run into is because of the GREAT documentation we are provided (none)

[jovial dirge]

bruh

back to fixing ded mods once this update is realised 💀

[torn palm]

u can already add that value, like Ultra noted its in since 0.23

[torn palm]

here

[sleek rover]

Have you ever read the change logs?

Are you even aware that they exist?

[torn palm]

u mean "Improved Modding Support" Line?

[jovial dirge]

🗿

[sleek rover]

Right, you've clearly never read a single change log in your life

[jovial dirge]

read the last lines of every RC

slowly add stuff from there

all i can say that its going to be pain once case sensitive is for all functions 💀

[sleek rover]

Here's a few lines from the latest RC changelog, so you can understand what you're missing out on:

This seems like the documentation you have been complaining does not exist

To end this conversation, I'd like to circle back to something I said earlier: #1151672136885354629 message

[jovial dirge]

he/she prob wants a document that compiles all the changes to modding from the past few RCs

instead of individually picking out pieces from the RC changelog

[torn palm]

Since when is it actually explained there tho, i Recall Just Reading what i wrote

[torn palm]

a lil xD dies of cringe + in 150/153hours of cosmoteer played used for modding, lookin thru BASE GAME, but apperently missing Ion_beam_prism, & trying to keep a large mod uptodate with a VERY well documented game

[torn palm]

and literally making a bug report and getting no information kinda tilts...

[torn palm]

Since when is it actually explained there tho, i Recall Just Reading what i wrote

still funny tho that even Walt doesnt know his own Game by head hmmm maybe at least an internal doc could help

[supple sleet]

Lets keep this channel relevant to the chain gun. Please keep similar discussions in #modding please

[pine cargo]

Well moreso towards 0.24.0 update as a whole.

Speaking of which, I see no built-in ships (Or ''various updates to pre-existing built-in ships'' thing) being displayed in the patch notes. Is this an accident or have the built-ins gotten no changes/new entries?

[dire wraith]

Whats the reason for the force fire weapon mode when there already is autofire?

[celest coral]

I did wonder that

[torn palm]

Used to open the shell somewhat somehow, chaingun code seems rather cryptic rn xd

[torn palm]

its a lot of "wild" chaining of different toggles xD

[pine cargo]

Chaingun and magazine explosion doesn't deal damage!

Is this intentional?

Because they are indeed stock full of boolets that explode everywhere else.

[rancid gale]

I need more boolets

[celest coral]

Beeleets

[pine cargo]

Ye it's ironic how Chain gun is the only ammo weapon that doesn't chain.

[smoky vortex]

i did read all the tips... i like the tips, they are use full.

[cedar belfry]

So when can we expect the first ai ships using chainguns to appear? 🙂

[novel zinc]

whats with a chaungun ammo storage that is like a turn so you could make a more efficiant ammo storage

[smoky vortex]

i have found a bug, if you have the chaingun on auto-fire and you use the chaingun magazine but they are not full, than the gun will not fire.

[knotty prawn]

i think that\s intended behavior, need to be full to fire

[smoky vortex]

maybe

[sleek gale]

which is why there’s a button labeled “force fire”

[smoky vortex]

ok

[novel zinc]

11min 50 sec continios fire

[faint sluice]

lmao

[celest coral]

wow

[unborn wren]

I agree with all the thing people before me said

also the "bullets" should get piercing dmg

I just wanna

https://tenor.com/view/pirates-of-the-caribbean-beautiful-dissaster-calm-gif-15739174

[craggy pebble]

They're hitscan, piercing wouldn't really work

[unborn wren]

mmm

I mean couldn't you spawn cannon-like projectiles on hit?

[spark wren]

Is it really necessary to have the CG Magazine be 2x1? Seems like a 1x1 could do the trick.

Especially if you can’t place doors on the side of the bottom tile.

[royal summit]

4 seconds of continuous fire

[spark wren]

Also bug report: if you “restock all” then the chain gun will be missing a little bit of ammo.

[abstract garnet]

chaingun 👍

[pine cargo]

That is true to EVERYTHING actually, I've already reported that bug, together with how resotck all didn't replace all the resources with appropriate ones, but nobody listened for some reason.

If crew has set out to restock something, like going towards a shield to supply it with battery, then that thing won't be restocked all the way.

Not just an RC bug, a bug in general.

[spark wren]

Yeah the game won’t restock resources already on its way.

But even if they’re not delivering it leaves 1,5 bullets worth of ammo

[pine cargo]

OOOH, This rc fixed this bug!

Welllll, that's a whole ass paragraph gone to waste...

[knotty prawn]

you called that a major issue? it's more annoying than anything

[fallow tulip]

chaingun should have 180° firing arc

probably 200°

[knotty prawn]

maybe a full 720 degrees two times around on the deck and a little into the 4th dimension too

[fallow tulip]

nah

[unborn wren]

It should be able to turn up and shoot the player through the screen

[pine cargo]

I's very annoying.

[pine cargo]

Ascend to 10th dimension with 4096 degree firing arc.

[knotty prawn]

i would consider major as being something like "ion beam forgets its settings every thursday"

[pine cargo]

Fair enough.

I accidentally clicked major there anyways, initially it was annoying.

[final helm]

I want a chainsaw my dude

[quaint copper]

I look forward to the 200 degree version, otherwise gonna force some pretty wide ships to use this

[rich prawn]

it will be possibly actually

here's my completely nonsensical opinion on this matter:

double the damage to 1k damage pet hit (oneshot corridors)
slightly nerf the ramp up
magazines cost 1k only

but since 200 degree arc will come later this would be pretty bad

too strong for its own good

alternatively two barrels but that's stretching too far

[rich prawn]

i like this, though, they have a protective shell and all it shouldn't explode so easily

[leaden patrol]

i dont see the massive issue between 2 hit and 1 hit corridors when you're mostly gonna be hitting shields and armor anyways

[rich prawn]

double damage but make it "explosion" damage

alternatively a new damage type that corridors and other non-armor systems have negative resistance that would be awesome

[unborn wren]

for the magazines removing the tristeel plates from the cost might be nice, even if you only need one plate per magazine, it might be too annoying in career if the station doesn't currently have enough of the plates

[bold vortex]

What kind of lag are you running into? The only thing I've noticed is far better performance on linux.

[rich prawn]

while i was firing many chainguns against a wall it randomly lagged for a second or two before quickly returning to the average fps, still firing

[bold vortex]

Technically yes, but it's been pretty buggy until like, literally a couple days ago. The first "stable" release with everything put together is this RC (and remember it is an RC, not a regular update).

[rich prawn]

oh so that's why the branch exists

[bold vortex]

Can you please post your save file either here or in #1019741923893858305?

[bold vortex]

Autofire tells the chaingun to fire when ready, and stop firing once autofire is disabled. Force fire immediately tells the weapon to open fire even if it's not "ready" (ammo isn't full), and will completely deplete itself before stopping.

[bold vortex]

Under what circumstances? I've been restocking it quite regularly and haven't seen any issues.

[spark wren]

Under any circumstances. You can see the bullets missing in the magazine.

[rich prawn]

that's just a side effect of the splitter

maybe just increase the splitter capacity by 4 bullets and limit the bullets shown to current

[spark wren]

Is that a Marcy pfp? Nice!

[rich prawn]

true

[bold vortex]

Yeah, that's not specific to restock resources, it happens when manually loading it too. The bullet splitter should probably line up properly when loading from nothing, though there might've been a technical reason it works that way, don't remember for sure.

[spark wren]

Hmmm… it’s in no way shape or form a serious issue, but it is mildly triggering so it needs fixing immediately! lol

[bold vortex]

Obligatory "literally unplayable"

[spark wren]

Maybe increase the ammo count by 0.5 bullets (so 2 shots, one on each side)

One more “invisible” round in that ammo box

[rich prawn]

yeah funny how the chaingun splits bullets

damage efficiency gets higher the smaller you go
so a micrometer buckshot would deal the most efficient damage possible

[bold vortex]

Did this just happen once or is it happening relatively consistently?

[rich prawn]

i think happened once or twice, hard to tell, can't test further at the moment

[bold vortex]

Alright. If you find anything else out about the lag, please make a thread in #1019741923893858305. If possible it'd be good to find a scenario where it lags outside of using chainguns, so you can compare its performance to the stable branch.

[rotund robin]

When bilding the chaingun it crashes w an error: "No component named 'Turret' in part 'cosmoteer.chaingun'".

I cba to read in this chat. Is this a known bug? how do you create a chaingun in career wo it crashing? : )

[sleek gale]

it’s been mentioned here a few times, Walt said he won’t be able to release another rc for a bit

[sleek gale]

.

[rotund robin]

aw, that's worse than the usual joke of pushing to prod on a friday...
oh well : p

[sleek gale]

joke?

[bold vortex]

For the time being you should be able to get around this crash by disabling crew construction while messing with chainguns (magazines should be fine).

[rotund robin]

ah! thank you < 3

[rotund robin]

it's a developers joke

[chrome shell]

average competitive ship if chainguns get 200º

[knotty prawn]

yes

[leaden patrol]

is 1 side having the mags enough to even upkeep with its fire rate? i thought their input was limited

[leaden patrol]

i think it's be move of a V because if you move to the side you can restart their firerate or waste their ammo

[chrome shell]

nope, imput is unlimited afaik

[hollow ferry]

Can you elaborate?

[pine cargo]

But the magazines?

[rich prawn]

see: #1151672136885354629 message
#1151672136885354629 message

it was mid-autofire at a target so i don't believe there should be a sudden performance drop and return to normal if it's the same situation constantly

[hollow ferry]

The question is, if it's not full, then when should it fire?

[hollow ferry]

If you have a saved game that reproduces this, that would be very helpful.

[unborn wren]

Also can the chaingun get more pen resist? I've seen it get penetrated with regular cannons (iirc even in defensive mode but I'm not sure) and start fires in the storage behind it

[hollow ferry]

okay, please let us know if it persists

[unborn wren]

Maybe when it's firing, crew can leave ammo in the empty slot of the magazines (only 4 in cartridges), then once the chaingun shoots everything it automatically loads everything that's ready and locks the magazines again.

Oh there's 5 per magazine right?

If so then it should be 5 ammo per additional cartridge

[hollow ferry]

We want some forced downtime between volleys though. That's supposed to be part of what makes the chaingun interesting to use.

[unborn wren]

I understand, but rn the downtime is too long imo

[rancid gale]

Is there a way to set a direction for the ammo things?

Currently they just go in which ever way they chose

[rancid gale]

Magazines I mean

[hollow ferry]

You mean if a magazine is connected to chainguns on either side? No not currently, that seems like a fringe use case and we decided as long as it wasn't horribly broken it was fine.

[rancid gale]

Yeah

Interestingly enough they seem to occasionally switch which gun they feed

[unborn wren]

Maybe the downtime could happen when the cartridge is being loaded into the magazine or something

[lyric flame]

I made a mod to simulate increased firing angle in RC2, lemme know if anyone wants it
(since its gonna be like a week until RC2 comes out)

[soft scroll]

Chaingun footage?

[soft scroll]

I can’t get in my computer atm

[soft scroll]

Can I get a close up of it opening

[boreal fjord]

can i use it also

[lyric flame]

mods tellme if this is illegal

[boreal fjord]

k thanks

[lyric flame]

just unzip the mod in your mods folder

[boreal fjord]

ight

[lyric flame]

its near the ships folder

direct control weapons is just not wrking with chain gun
im clicking the hotkey I set it to, they just don't fire

[fallow tulip]

uhhh idk whats wrong

[lyric flame]

Hm, maybe just try unzipping it in the mods folder

[fallow tulip]

ty!

[rich prawn]

would 75-80% resist be good or not...

[lyric flame]

I think that would be better

[rich prawn]

truw true

[fallow tulip]

i really wonder how shield setups for chainguns will work

[royal summit]

maybe like this?

[fallow tulip]

maybe

but i would think it would be better to have 2 mags per

[royal summit]

it won't be near the enemy for long

5 seconds of constant firing is enough

[fallow tulip]

true

[dusky plank]

I made an insanely fast reload time chain gun model

[royal summit]

i'd say the rammer that nick made could use a long burst, otherwise you don't really have much of an incentive

[quaint copper]

I just woke I probably have it just opening up game to double check

[quaint copper]

My F2 ship "Galaxy Refit" in this save is jumping to my F1 ship "Sovereign Refit", which has a queued blueprint with the new weapon, and has a hyperdrive beacon.
Game crashes on jump completion.

Fresh log

[finite ice]

I feel as though the chaingun could trade some of its damage for a wider firing arc. In particular diagonal ships might have a lot of trouble using it at all.

[fast hound]

Can confirm the "Missing Turret" crash happens for me only in career, not in creative. Tried with a fresh career game. Happens both when using blueprint mode and building, and when just adding it directly. Happens as soon as the building of the chaingun part starts

[supple sleet]

A buff to 220 degrees of aiming is planned

[rich prawn]

220? oh god that's even more now

[leaden patrol]

at some point the pod is just gonna completely exit the weapon and fly on its own as a chaingun fighter

[rich prawn]

omw to make pod drone mod

[winter vine]

The pod is perfectly shaped for that, just give it some partical effects and you'll have a perfect drone

[rich prawn]

why is every shader-based effect like beams all of the colors are defined in the shader instead of the beam itself, it's so hard to mod 🥺

chaingun_bullet by far the beam hardest to change color... i have absolutely no idea what to do here

[sleek gale]

it gains more every time it's mentioned xc

[pine apex]

360 when

[boreal fjord]

Soon it’s going to be able to shoot over the friendly ship it was fired from in a 360 degree angle

[sleek rover]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it only firing when it's full, it's just that it isn't immediately clear to the player that it needs to wait until it's full to fire

[torn palm]

which is not Metionened in ANY Patch Note in the LAST YEAR .... + almost all Patchnotes have multiple mentions of the same change which is very unintuitive + the Modding Patch Notes are only somewhat THERE aka existing at all since maybe 6 months, i guess i remembered lookin at the PATCH NOTES seeing no Modding changes and marking them as non relevant for me,,,,

[torn palm]

lol just open vscode, it can edit shaders,

@sleek rover Maybe next time you won't answer so smugly.

[sleek rover]

your honour, I plead "oopsie daisies"

but in all seriousness, that very rarely happens, and usually if you ask nicely and politely in #modding, someone will know what's going on

In the mean time, Saris told you to stop posting about that in here, so go do that

[pine apex]

aka Cap will jump in given how they know the game inside and out

[spark wren]

Quick question, if I reload only the last piece of a magazine does it automatically push the bullets to the front? It should.

[pine cargo]

Wow, that is amazing fire arc.

[next marsh]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/546327169014431746/1151923686945865849/2023-09-14_18_52_10.gif

like this?, you can if you force fire
atleast it's the only way i found

[rich prawn]

what if it was just a big combined storage crew could input from anywhere

[royal summit]

that would be awesome imo

[rich prawn]

one issue

one door
crew can reload every

[pine cargo]

That'd be great. Concentrate all crew at the edge magazine and let them dump all their ammo in. It'd make a lot of sense for it to sort of ''carry'' the ammo towards the other magazine chain links.

[rich prawn]

maybe it only works in the direction of the feed, like you only input on edge

[spark wren]

Tho it should take at least a little time for the ammo to be pushed forwards. Otherwise it might be a little op, having just a bunch of crew waiting at that one entrance and instantly reloading everything.

[cursive halo]

For us who studied the low price zone of ships, we first suggest increase its resistence, in both mode, and including its chain, or else it isn't really deserve to be a weapon on surface for its price.A good compare should be flakers and LCs: they are well resisting surface ammo based weapon, one because of their intercept ability and one for cheap spam and high HP. Chainguns now have either at the same price.
We also down vote damage buff cause they are actually quit good already. If even better, they might took part of the role that was suppose to be for ions.

Let's list some data......A LC is 5k price while 21k HP, and a chaingun is 17k price while just 18k HP......When engaging, chaingun almost own no chance using its shield and have to resist all qith full damage, in that case it is just stupidly vunlarable. Plus even when damage resistence on it isn't resisting enough as a focesd target to aim. In test, chainguns indeed got killed instently when combating with LCs......That is making them functioning hopeless in direct engage betwin powerful ships.
Also in orbiting their firing angle is deadly small, and their aiming sucks when ship try use them while dancing.

Against that, two proposal CCC members have:
*Increase chaingun HP to 50k, decrease its shield resistence to 50%.
In fact some mod test even suggest 60k HP and 75% shield resistence, leaveing only the chain as weakness, but that is rejected by most of us as it might make chain-less chaingun OP.
*At the mean time, increase it pentration resistence to 1 instead of -1 (unlike flakers it can't protect devices behind it with other ability or structure while it really need to).
*The HP of chains can increase to 4k or remain at the mean time. Add 2m pentration resistence to chains.
*Either turrent firing angle or turn speed, one of these should be improved.

Personally, I give upvotes for resistence. I mean really, or else chaingun would possiblity be the most inner-placment-perfered-only surface weapon among all melee arm in dom. That would be a shame for that nicely painted gun shield, and really a meaningless puch on ions.

To say how sad this is......this is the only useable ship type we came up after a bunch of dom ship test during the two days. None of the melee ship we tested was good enough to be considered as useful.

And it is still worse than an average laser kitter.

Of course there is melee usage of the weapon, but through a feature that we would all agree isn't legally part of the plan.

[dire wraith]

Suggestion: Dont mark the ammo tile red if its only half full. Its hard to see that its not full during battle and leads to confusion as to why the weapon isnt firing.

[cursive halo]

Maybe mark them yellow.

[dire wraith]

Yes maybe

[pine cargo]

Or a much more subtle glow when it's not fully stocked but not empty either.

[cedar belfry]

I'd suggest to leave it unlighted as long as it isn't useable, just like all other ship parts

[celest coral]

100% legal

[cursive halo]

That should hopefully make such ships work! Thanks lol.

[lyric flame]

In elim the only ships that have worked so far is huge arrays of alpha chainguns, and low HP makes them not good enough

Clips being lower cost would help a lot too

[pine cargo]

^^

One last balance change that would help them wonders would be eternally ramping up increasing the protective shell HP because as is it's kind of a cosmetic feature and doesn't do much.

Ya ain't tanking a hit in the face with it.

It should also probably boost pen resist.

[sour locust]

Cant load the gun even tho it fed before

Cant do it with the button too.

Need the Save?

[pine apex]

Nope, all need to be loaded

Nvm yes always send saves

[sour locust]

There

[sour locust]

^

[lyric flame]

The chain gun doesn't have any ammo so it can't feed

Very annoying

[buoyant tree]

Supply the magazines. They need doors.

This is why i have auto doors on

[rich prawn]

iirc not the issue

[lyric flame]

Very much not the issue

The issue is that the mags don't feed if the base block doesn't work

[pine apex]

They should be firing if they have force fire on

[dire wraith]

Again only works when the base has ammo

[bold vortex]

I'm unable to reproduce any issues with that save. If you load it and unpause does the game crash again?

[bold vortex]

The difference is actually having crew construction enabled or disabled. Disabling it (the creative default) works, but enabling it (the career default) currently crashes the game.

[quaint copper]

Am loading the game now, will see

hope i attached the right save

[bold vortex]

I think we're yet to set up proper indicators, I'd assume magazines would come with a "no ammo" indicator until completely full.

[bold vortex]

Yeah, the chaingun itself needs at least one bullet loaded for force fire to work. Whether or not that "should" happen is probably up for debate though.

[torn palm]

lol casually forgor the most core part of cosmo, literally unplaybale without indicators

[quaint copper]

Ok weird if i save again with this auto save it fixes the crash but this one crashed on me twice now, so seems good to share

[sour locust]

Ok so. I have one thing that i think can make the whole wepon better (imo). For me it would be better if we can manually bring out the gun and not shoot any ammo. Now if you want to see it it has to fire. In most ocasions it will be prob better to just have it open for a input fire on an imput too and close on and input OR have a special key for opeaning and closing it.

It will prob invlove a lot of recoding.

I will understand if this wil be igonred altho i just think it can be a decent change to have the chain gun used more in DOM and Elim/

[bold vortex]

If you're on RC1 and getting a crash when trying to build a chaingun (No component named 'Turret' in part 'cosmoteer.chaingun'.), either temporarily disable crew construction or install the attached mod through the mod manager's . This issue should be completely fixed on the release of RC2.

[bold vortex]

Cool, that save's crashing the game (what a weird sentence). Thanks for reporting!

[rich prawn]

chaingun would probably be the strongest weapon along with nukes if cloaking were introduced

[cursive halo]

That depends on how limited or how expensive cloathing is. If cloathng are really costy, it would still be balanced.

[next marsh]

a button to force reload would be nice, so we can take advantage of the shell without the lag of the "pause-fire" button

[nova mantle]

the most annoying thing in new update:
(magazines with cartridges are not connected if they are turned over)

[pine cargo]

Wait how would cloaking positively affect cg to that extent?

[pine cargo]

That would actually be a great feature.

---

Oh also, some kind of magazine buff icon should be displayed on the chaingun/each magazine when you hover over/are placing magazine pieces, which would be similar to like the railgun accelerator or engine room icons.

Would be great qol just to see how much extra ammo/fire rate your gun is getting.

[rich prawn]

shoot chaingun lile a madman
start reloading and go invisible
repeat

[cursive halo]

This reply I got is from CCC player 逛逛. The player wrote a long text, transelated with transelater. His reply is detailed and different enough to be singled out separately from major CCC comment on chainguns.
The comment of our major: #1151672136885354629 message

[halcyon idol]

i think the chaingun could greatly benefit from increased (at least doubled, probably more) pen resist. Currently, frontal shots from basically any ballistic weapon is highly likely to pierce through the CG and destroy the internal modules, which I think doesn't fit the defensive nature the weapon seems to be going for. That's been my main problem with the weapon so far (apart from the firing angle which has already been addressed it seems)

[fallow tulip]

from what I've felt of the chaingun is that one of it's big weaknesses is it can't punish mistakes because of the time it takes to get into 'firing mode'. in my opinion a solution to this would be having a hotkey to put it on standby in the with it out of the shell and not able to be reloaded.

[royal summit]

(also reducing the time for it to leave the shell would also help alot)

[fallow tulip]

yes but I feel like the time it takes to come out of the shell could be a never ending problem with a lot of players wanting the time to be incredibly short

I feel like it should be a built in weakness and other weaknesses should be looked at

I do also think that there should be a test for a non hitscan version with penetration

but that might be something for excelsior to do

honestly more chaingun hotkeys while making it a high focus weapon would help

[sour locust]

@fallow tulip

Same thing that i said

:3

[fallow tulip]

I didn't know mb

great minds think alike?

[dire wraith]

I dont agree it just takes a bit of micro to have it fire in time

[fallow tulip]

the idea would be that you reload it and then open it up and wait to fire

[dire wraith]

You can already do this

Just autofire

[fallow tulip]

yes but I mean being able to wait to fire and having shooting be available instantly

[glacial frigate]

anyone else get an error like this when trying to build a chaingun?

[pine apex]

yes, known issue, will be fixed in the next RC, for now youll just have to turn off crew construction to build it

[glacial frigate]

what a shame

[royal summit]

there is a patch somewhere if you want

[sleek rover]

check the pins

[carmine dome]

how do i access this

[pine cargo]

Also, check the pins.

#game-questions message Except #game-questions pins.

[carmine dome]

thx

[static saffron]

It was loaded nvm

[finite ice]

this should definitely be addressed, it would lead to more flexibility with design options

[fallow tulip]

yeah

as far as I know the more magazines the longer the spin up time, imo that should probably be mentioned

[halcyon idol]

nah mags don’t affect it

[rich prawn]

spin up time is always the same

[fallow tulip]

testing by @fervent plover says otherwise https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/546229904488923145/1152581099877306378/image.png

[halcyon idol]

Are you sure that’s what it means? It can’t even fully spin up until it has like 5 or 6 mags but there are numbers for those on the chart

[fallow tulip]

check on the lower end

[rich prawn]

guh?

whar

[sleek gale]

visible confusion

[runic sluice]

Having spent a few days playing around with the chainguns on a smaller scale (By which I mean smaller ships.) I feel like there needs to be 3 changes for chainguns to fit in better: 1. The base ammo capacity needs to be raised, lets say doubled minimum and I'd say more along the line of 3x more practically speaking. 2. The ammo type needs to be a different type from the standard ammo that everything shell firing currently uses (Including the current chaingun.). I don't have a good name for it but something along the lines of Small Caliber Ammo sounds nice enough. 3. This new ammo type would ideally be produced in the same part as ammo currently is and would be selected with a toggle for what ammo is being produced (Regular or the new type) with the new type using sulfur just like the regular ammo with a better production rate.

[finite ice]

I don't see the reasoning for having another separate ammo type for chainguns only

[pine apex]

Ok but why a new ammo type? You suggested nothing to make it diffrent other than for the sake of it

[plush plover]

Got an crash, likely crew related on 8x in co-op. Posting log.

[knotty prawn]

maybe related to https://discord.com/channels/314103695568666625/1152698815414009897

[plush plover]

That'd be it, aye. Didn't realize the bug reports had a RC tag, good to know for the future. Thanks!

[fervent plover]

ah no, you misunderstood the spinup time column

spinup has a max of 6 seconds, but i need that column to know if that value is greater than 6 seconds hehe

[fallow tulip]

if the value is greater than six seconds doesn't that make the max not six seconds?

[fervent plover]

• starts at 2.86 shots/s at t=0s
• linearly increases shots/s until reaching 30 shots/s at t=6s
• keeps shooting at 30 shots/s until it runs out of ammo

ignore the spreadsheet column, I use that column to calculate another column

[fallow tulip]

ah ok

I apologize for accidentally spreading misinformation my bad

[fervent plover]

https://tenor.com/view/we-do-a-little-trolling-misinformation-toji-no-miko-kaoru-mashiko-gif-24078541

[sleek gale]

should it be spin time instead of spinup time?

[pine cargo]

Once again, I politely ask for infinite spinup chainguns.

[sleek gale]

might want bigger ammo reserves first

[runic sluice]

Primarily because right now it just feels like a rapid firing cannon with the main constraint being magazine limitations, think of the difference between an autocannon and a tank's main gun. But it'd also improve how optimizable they are in general by increasing the amount of ammo that can be produced and stored for them (Lets say that rate gets doubled on both storage and production.) and it'd also give more options for the future if more properties like specific resistances are introduced or more parts get ammo choice like missile launchers do. This ammo type could also be reused later on in other physical weapons such as a light flak gun or a small cannon (The game data calls the regular cannon_med.).

[finite ice]

Still seems arbitrary, we use the same ammo for little pea shooters as big giant battleship cannons. It works fine as is.

[rich prawn]

me watching my pc fry

[runic sluice]

That's only because it's visually similar enough for the differences in the other cannons and even that is because it's handwaved by the large and deck cannons combining the ammo. For the chaingun it's similar enough to an autocannon that it does feel like it'd be better to use a different ammo type that could also get used with other lower damage but higher fire rate weapons like a burst fire cannon in the future. The turret, shield, and magazine part aside currently it feels very samey with the regular cannon but just rapid firing. For simplicity's sake it works but it'd be like if the large shields were just a more expensive and powerful shield without the downside of needing to be exposed. Mechanically good but there's just something missing about it.

[glacial frigate]

maybe increase the chain gun's penetration resistance while it's not hiding in the shell? Because it can't really even stop basic cannon shots, because they go right through and destroy the corridors behind it way too easily
And before anyone says, "just use shields": the basic cannons can stop shots from other basic cannons. I see a need for a balance change

[unique frigate]

since this update the german translation for some button and drop down list is missing

[bold vortex]

Should be fixed in the next release candidate. It's bugged for all non-english languages right now.

[ripe crater]

"you will play in German and you will god dam enjoy it"

[hollow ferry]

Fixed for the next RC, but i think it actually had nothing to do with the RC.

[cedar belfry]

Ok so I tried constucting a chaingun using crew construction and it crashed

I'm using huge ships and a decal mod of mine, but that hopefully shouldn't interfere

[lyric flame]

crew construction is broken, you have to turn it off

[cedar belfry]

sorry if I reported a known bug

[lyric flame]

not a problem, you couldn't ahve know it was a known bug

[low sierra]

oh boi

will magazines ever get a corner piece?

[sleek gale]

there is a pinned message here with a temporary fix for that

[cedar belfry]

Thanks!

[dapper kestrel]

just got a crash report when building the chain gun

[rancid gale]

It’s a common issue

[rancid gale]

See my message above

[fringe citrus]

you should be able to place magazines upside down (currently doesnt work)

[royal summit]

iirc suggested before

it'll probably be a thing in rc2

[torn palm]

link to Captain Redstone's RC1 Fix Mod For Chaingun: #1151672136885354629 message

[buoyant tree]

fr i had this exact issue but i just disabled it in my career save

[pine cargo]

#1151672136885354629 message Any coverage on this?

[novel zinc]

This isn’t even useful

[royal summit]

it is

depending on what you're even talking about

the gif isn't really helpful but the chaingun is

[spark wren]

Any idea when (if ever) the CGs firing angle will be extended?

[sleek gale]

next rc iirc

[sleek gale]

this post and shortly after it

[spark wren]

Oh sweet thanks

[pine cargo]

It can't even fully ramp up

[royal summit]

add 2 mags and it can

how much ammo does the chaingun store?

[halcyon idol]

10

Mags store 5

[royal summit]

yeah 2 mags should add 1 second, add 2-3 more and you'll be fine

(accounting for ramp up)

4 seconds of fire on the base ammo storage is decent

[fallow tulip]

uuuuuhm

[dull agate]

Rc seems to be having issues?

[fallow tulip]

yeah

[hollow ferry]

@everyone RC2 is now available for testing with a ton of changes & fixes. Thanks for your patience, and sorry for the delay! (RC2 is an unusually large RC2, plus I was traveling for a few days for a friend's wedding, which combined to make RC2 take much longer than normal.) See the bottom of this post for RC2 patch notes: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/799600/view/6789795183860996115

[rich prawn]

i just turned off my pc

well here we go again

[leaden patrol]

i dont see RC2's changes listed in this post

[soft scroll]

dont see the rc2 patch notes, scrolled all the way to the bottom

[halcyon idol]

[winter vine]

Where

[pine apex]

there there for me

[soft scroll]

just got fixed

[hollow ferry]

They're there for me, sometimes Steam can take a while to update news posts for everyone.

[hollow ferry]

thanks

[halcyon idol]

graahhhh

changun

[carmine dome]

i wonder what role it can serve in dom

perhaps a reliable anti-brick?

[fallow tulip]

yay!!! tysm Walt! you should go take a break cause you've pushed yourself with this!

[carmine dome]

btw where mining laser buff

[soft scroll]

gun with a chain

[carmine dome]

xd

[soft scroll]

possibly multiple rotating barrels

firing rapidly

cant wait to see more ships using the chaingun

such a cool weapon

[celest coral]

I'm busy now x)

[soft scroll]

what factions are gonna make the most use out of the chaingun?
fringe? monolith maybe?

[fallow tulip]

monolith

they like ammo weapons

[hollow ferry]

probably monolith most and cabal least

[fallow tulip]

fringe uses whatever it can get

[soft scroll]

tf are fringe even fighting for lol

theyre just like annoying wasps that get in your house every now and then

[fallow tulip]

to survive

[soft scroll]

why not just get a job at mololith lmao

[fallow tulip]

cause they want freedom

[soft scroll]

from what?

[halcyon idol]

They want to be free from having cool ships

[fallow tulip]

and most people that work for monolith aren't employees and work in the mines

[hollow ferry]

Let's keep this thread on-topic about 0.24.0, thanks!

[fallow tulip]

sorry

mb

[soft scroll]

#general

[finite socket]

i dont see it mentioned in either the patchnotes or the ingame description, is the chaingun forcibly 'magdumping' an intended feature or a bug?

[soft scroll]

intended

[hollow ferry]

not sure what you're talking about

[finite socket]

#1151672136885354629 message

[hollow ferry]

intended

[fallow tulip]

why?

[halcyon idol]

Hmm

it seems the chainguns aren't firing unil you aim at a spot that's in their original firing arc, but if you hold the fire button and move it to the side they can still reach their new arc

nvm

It’s not their original firing arc but it’s not their full firing arc

[fallow tulip]

i am very much against that CG need to be selected to force fire beacuse its really the only way to get it to fire

consistantly i mean

[rich prawn]

chainguns no longer pull ammo when quick tapping to autofire

sad

[lyric flame]

yeah so this is kinda very op
800k for 26 chainguns
these chainguns will eat up almost every 1.5m ship

[craggy pebble]

Their range is bad so a lot of stuff can just kite it

[halcyon idol]

I guess? Good luck defending that though

also that ship would probably ending being about 1.5m once you put on thrusters and whatnot

[sleek gale]

since they don't chain it's not very bad to lose one or two guns assuming you can manage to get in range

[lyric flame]

1.5m finalized ship. I'm a bit dissapointed that you can't reload with some clips if CGs are completley out of ammo.

[plush plover]

I was hyped for side mounted chainguns with the new firing arc, until I realized the AI is being weird about it. https://discord.com/channels/314103695568666625/1154241304977481850

Good progress though! Really excited to start incorporating these into my fleets.

[leaden patrol]

balancing via making it kite-able doesnt sound very fun to me, but their projectiles are at least a little faster than deck cannon's (which seemed to be limited to ramming due to their crappy speed and range)

[leaden patrol]

cant you put a door pathway all the way across the mags, though?

[craggy pebble]

I wasn't making a balance suggestion, their range is already pretty short

(Also their projectiles are hitscan, so they're def faster than deck gun shots lol)

[pine apex]

game froze, no idea why, no save game sadly

[rich prawn]

completely extended and exposed chaingun gives be strange vibes

[pine apex]

still think of a gutted out drone every time i see it

you cant tell me that Monolith actually just stole it from Fringe after seeing them jarry rig an old used drone into a ball turret

[rich prawn]

has someone tested if the chaingun damage resistance and etc colliders doesn't change the weight of the part

[torn palm]

if enabled or not i would expect the game to calculate it once with all colliders/rects

[fallow tulip]

they should chain now I think

[dire wraith]

Not this one

144 m/s with boost

[fallow tulip]

I genuinely don't understand how your ok with an incredibly fragile ship

[dire wraith]

I dont play it in carrier

[fallow tulip]

ik

still I would be scared in mp playing that

[dire wraith]

You should be scared for your opponent playing that

[fallow tulip]

yeah that too

[royal summit]

from what i saw it's decently tanky, the enemy won't last long anyway

[pine cargo]

Holy crap what were you smoking xd

[fallow tulip]

does anyone have a close up pic of an rc1 chaingun shooting so i can see the difference of how they look?

[leaden patrol]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1132471983498592287/1154240520718139422/image.png

[dire wraith]

Only the best stuff

And the ship is not a meme

Its really strong

[fallow tulip]

looks like it

i need to learn how to focus on offense

cause i build ships that are somehow tankier than needed

[dire wraith]

Its a balancing act

This only really works because cg are op

[fallow tulip]

yeah

i meant overall

[pine cargo]

Dang, these are some seriously sweet buffs!

CG now might be one of the best weapons in the game!

[dire wraith]

Yea a bunch of people suggested buffs and Walt basically added all of them

Now its kind of broken

Will be a fun tourney

[fallow tulip]

honestly CG might need a health reduction so its more fragile in firing mode

[unborn wren]

I agree, tho not by much

[royal summit]

i think it's fragile enough

while firing

[unborn wren]

imo rc1 was way too fragile but rc2 is way better, tho it could go with a little bit of a hp decrease

[spark wren]

Little nerf idea: The more it’s damaged, the higher of a chance it has to misfire? Each misfire would consume the ammo but not fire a projectile, then when the next shot would come the gun would be stuck or eject the fairly projectile, and only after that the gun continues to shoot.

So instead of it going:
Shot
Shot
Shot
Shot
Shot
Shot

It goes

Shot
Shot
Misfire (ammo consumed)
Eject (No ammo consumed)
Shot
Shot

It would not loose its speed, but you’d get out way fewer shots the more damaged the gun is.

[unborn wren]

ehh sounds too complicated and unreliable

[spark wren]

How so?

[unborn wren]

when I build a gun, I want it to fire reliably and not be rng based

would be pretty annoying if you were very close to killing something only for the gun not to shoot

[spark wren]

With the speed the CG fires it would still reliably fire, you’d just do a little less damage in the same amount of time.

And you can avoid it by keeping your CG from taking too much damage.

And as i said it wouldn’t loose its speed, so you won’t have to worry about it “resetting”.

[unborn wren]

still, it's already rng based enough because of the firing arc, adding more rng would make it worse

the firing arc being so big is enough imo

[spark wren]

It’s literally one of the best weapons in the game rn, arguably the best ballistic weapon unless you’re going for rails and keep your distance.

[royal summit]

i mean, flak is still good, cannons weren't getting used widely anyway

[rich prawn]

rng other than random spread is

quite not good

in my wyes

nothing else in the game does that

[sleek gale]

then we fix that by giving cannons a chance to damage themselves with the same logic

[hollow ferry]

@everyone RC3 is now available! Fixes a few bugs from RC2. Patch notes at the bottom of the original post: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/799600/view/6789795183860996115

[rancid gale]

Cool

[pine cargo]

Cool!

[novel zinc]

Cooler

[pine cargo]

Quick question, why aren't there any new built-ins this update?

[rancid gale]

Coolest

[pine cargo]

Not even updates for them.

[hollow ferry]

The ship designers just haven't had enough time with the new chaingun to update the ships for it.

[pine cargo]

Ah, I see.

[hollow ferry]

(There have been a handful of non-Chaingun ship updates, but I haven't personally had time to review/approve them yet.)

[rancid gale]

How many more rcs before full release?

[hollow ferry]

as many as it takes

[spark wren]

Walt, what do you think of something like this to nerf the CG a little?

[hollow ferry]

Might be interesting, but I'm not convinced yet that it needs a nerf.

[spark wren]

Alright, thank you!

[spark wren]

Is there a button or any other way of manually firing the CG in Direct Control Mode without setting it to Force Fire beforehand?

[hollow ferry]

Not sure what you mean. You should just be able to click and it will pop out and fire.

[spark wren]

Ah, didn’t know you hat to put your mouse over them first, thank you!

[pine cargo]

#1151672136885354629 message Asking for the second time, but is this considered? @hollow ferry

A buff icon for how many more % ammo/fire rate boost mags give the chaingun.

Like the ones for railgun, or even engine room/factory adjacency.

[low sierra]

@hollow ferry will we ever have corner magazines?

[spark wren]

I hope not. The point of the weapon is to be built in a straight line similar to rail guns.

[lyric flame]

ok there's no way that CGs are balanced right now

Plaus's CG alpha beats every single ship besides a lot of nukes, traps (two ships that flank the middle ship), or rail spinners

[inner kraken]

In that example, couldn't the spinner have sniped the unprotected CRs?

[lyric flame]

I was aiming at the side one
the spinner got ramlocked
taking out the unprotected crs would probably make the command points that they had go away as well

[next marsh]

shaking meta =/= being unbalanced
buildiing counter for this will be so much fun

[lyric flame]

also I don't think you acutally need that many command points

[dire wraith]

Its just for boost

[lyric flame]

??????
do you know how much dps this gives?

traps do coutner, but that's like one of three counters

[inner kraken]

There are two cockpits that have no armor protecting them. If those aren't trap targets and they're needed, sniping even one would have prevented a ram lock

[lyric flame]

I think that it should go back to previous pricing

[next marsh]

yes i played against it, it's clearly not on the top of the meta, just that the current used archetype are pathetic against it so it need a change
y'know i could say the same about slowking asymetric trap

while it don't use any chaingun

[lyric flame]

I probalby played spinner suboptimally, other spinners can mostly win I htink

but that isn't the point, spinners are like one of the three counters to that ship

[lyric flame]

oh boy you are wrong...

[inner kraken]

As for whether chain guns need a nerf, I haven't seen any reason to think so yet. Sure mass CGs is scary and may counter some things, but it also has counters. CGs used moderately still feel pretty weak to me so far, and I don't want to see them unviable because mass CGs can gimmick some archetypes

[next marsh]

quiximo is right

[lyric flame]

mass CG kills 95% of archetypes
wanna hop into a game rn quix and xsnow?

[inner kraken]

I can't play right now but I can watch some matches if you want to demonstrate

[dire wraith]

Fixed that in new design

[lyric flame]

none of my current ships beats plaus's CG

[plush plover]

Fixed chaingun arcs let's goooooooooo

[lyric flame]

no-one's playing with me rn so can't

[next marsh]

and?! build new one and adapt to the new meta
i would not call this "OP" just because it invert the meta

[dull agate]

Tb rail & morbiter were considered two of the top choices in regards to how many archetypes they're able to beat / counter. CG rammers now blow those numbers out of the water

Saying "build new one and adapt to meta" when something is literally countering practically every ship type out there is close minded

[lyric flame]

bro...
if the new meta is you have to play a rail trap, get a 50/50 with nukes, or play rail spinner, I don't wanna be in this new meta

[next marsh]

you know i don't want to be in the current meta, i want to be in the new one you just described

[lyric flame]

I just killed every single one of spacecat's ships

[royal summit]

honestly chaingun price buff was too much

like i can fit 18 nukes with 10 cgs now

[lyric flame]

granted, spacecat doesn't have the most "meta" ships, but still, wtf are you supposed to do

[royal summit]

cg rammer is now like 400k underbudget

[lyric flame]

I think mass CG was fairly balanced at its previous price given the new stat changes

[royal summit]

i think mags should be 2k, the cg should go back to its previous price

[lyric flame]

@dire wraith can you send .ship of your chaingun?

[lyric flame]

yeah that sounds failry reasonable

[dull agate]

I'd like for CG to have the same limitations as Deck cannons in regards to how close they can be to each other

[lyric flame]

doesn't plaus's meet those conditions though?

[inner kraken]

This doesn't address the fact that when you aren't massing them, they don't feel OP at all. If they do end up OP (I'm still not convinced) then increasing the cost per gun might be a better way of balancing mass CGs against other uses

[dire wraith]

Still not completely optimised but its ok

[lyric flame]

I think you might want some back thrust too

[dire wraith]

Why?

[lyric flame]

to take out middle structure a little bit, blaze could just flip my dc rammer to its side

[next marsh]

(i'm still not convinced either)

[lyric flame]

and when you have a normal 1.5m ship in there, the cgs can hit back, side, and front all at once, it does op stuff

[royal summit]

honestly reverting to the old cg cost while keeping the current mag cost would be good, it would encourage adding more mags per cg, rather than spamming cg

[inner kraken]

I could get behind that. I still think it's early to change them again though

[royal summit]

yeah waiting for tourney would be better

[lyric flame]

what will prove to you that they are OP?

[dull agate]

quiximo, go in a lobby and play anything you can think off against a CG rammer now. You'll understand why both Coolgamer and I are saying that they are an issue

[lyric flame]

oh also CG mirrors are really boring, so I'd prefer if that didn't happen at all

[inner kraken]

A lobby full of regulars putting it through it's paces would be a start. And then, a week or two of people adjusting to them

[inner kraken]

i have company and can't do anything that involved right now

[lyric flame]

hm I wonder if I gave a CG autoram if I could record that playing against me

[dull agate]

Oh btw, I don't know why but autoram doesn't work against Plaus's ship. As in ships with autoram stay stationary when targeting it

[royal summit]

for now a good nerf would be changing price to 15k or 16k

[inner kraken]

In the meantime, RCs could be helpful

[lyric flame]

release candidate or recordings?

[inner kraken]

recordings

[lyric flame]

oh yeah can't get ai recording bc ai leaves crew lol

[next marsh]

if that is close minded then i am close minded

i think i mentionned it enough time but the current meta is awful and i want change no matter what

practically every ship type out there get hard counter by the current meta anyway
so do you really mind a shift this much?

[lyric flame]

how is the current meta awful? there's a lot of viable ship archetypes?

[next marsh]

there is not alot of viable ship archetype
that was the case at the start of modern

[dull agate]

If your argument is that there aren't a lot of viable ship archetypes, which I disagree with. Isn't having CG rendering even more of those archetypes unviable a worst scenario?

[next marsh]

well no because it's not my argurment

[next marsh]

this is my argument and you complety skim it lmfao

[lyric flame]

here's some recs of me clowning on an ai
idk how helpful this is to anyone

[sleek gale]

suggestion: play pvp vs each other

[lyric flame]

im online... waiting for xsnow to bring a ship that coutners CGs (that isn't one of the three that I've already said)

[dull agate]

I played against several players for a few hours. Thus the reason why I'm here debating over CG now

[sleek gale]

I meant vs snow

you seem to know what you're talkling about while snow is.. well I'm not sure but I don't think he played a lot with it

[dull agate]

A shift in meta is great, a shift to the point that it's crushing all other kinds of ships is clearly unbalanced. We all want CG to be good but it needs some more balancing

[next marsh]

well in fact i was the first to found out two of these three (spinner and traps)

[lyric flame]

who wouldh ave guessed that traps beat an alpha weapon??? or spinners????

[dull agate]

Didn't we find that spinners lose from our testing?

[lyric flame]

I didn't play spinners optimally

[next marsh]

i played alot with plaus today and i seen what the ship is capable of

[next marsh]

crushing all used archetype and replace them with new one is what i call a good shift

[lyric flame]

what new archetypes are you proposing?

[next marsh]

any counter is pretty obious ngl
and alot of traps can't counter alpha rails

[dull agate]

By that logic, that means we'll all solely play chaingun rammers. Thrilling gameplay
You want it to be competitive and able to beat the other options on the board. You don't want it to just swipe all the pawns off of it

[sleek gale]

where does this hitscan-turret with plenty of HP leave ions

[dull agate]

Oh ions all lose, haven't found a single one that does well against CG rammers

[sleek gale]

glad the effort put into cores is negated currently

[next marsh]

don't even need to be new but railfan? missile barge? (omg)
anything with high armor to be honest, don't even need to be that fancy
saying it get counter by traps is also as big as saying it get countered by rammer, it's so vast

[next marsh]

i would like heavy armored ion design to pop-off so they can actually have complex core
for now is like V shaped prisms array with a huge barrel covered with large shields
((edited because i think my wording was terrible))

[sleek gale]

call em what you like but those can take a lot of time for some people

[lyric flame]

neither railfan or missile barge will win vs CG
high armor is not going to beat CG
my giant armor dc looses to CG

[next marsh]

in aesthetic core look glorious and they are time consuming i agree
your are amazing and i'm thankful you've been of help on some of my ships <3

i was speaking of pvp core btw

[sleek gale]

I was too

[next marsh]

image for reference
i've also edited the first message because methink my wording was awful

[sleek gale]

like these from @buoyant tree and @pine cargo (please don't steal these, I don't remember the terms I agreed to when I got them) (edit: removed the ship from @pine cargo cause it's probably not safe to share)

[next marsh]

that the kind of core i wish to see more

i never saw both of these ship in pvp 🤨

[lyric flame]

Youd see it more if it didnt hurt ion's dps so much

[lone dust]

What chaingun price would make it balanced in your opinion? (assuming the magazines stayed at 1k).

[lyric flame]

Hm, I'm not sure
Maybe a 40-60% price increase
I'd have to look at some testing later

[fallow tulip]

I feel like 15k for the chaingun would be a good starting spot

[dull agate]

If we take Plaus's ship as an example, he has 28 chain guns. If we increase the price per chain gun up to 15k that brings it up to a total of 84k added on top of the original price tag of the ship and so 6 CGs would have to be removed.
We'd have to test a similar ship with just 22 CGs to see how it performs

[fallow tulip]

yeah

[fallow tulip]

maybe take the entire module price into account and i think Plaus's ships design would change by also getting rid of some of the boosters

each "set" (ones that share a crew quarters) costs 55.7k

or an avg of 27.85k

(not including structure)

so If you cut off 3 mags from each you can still keep the same amount of chainguns

maths fun

[dull agate]

Right, I didn't consider the crew and mags

[fallow tulip]

turning chaingun from hitscan to actual projectiles could be used to balance as it could be hit by flak and PD

[sleek gale]

just throwing this out there but it's likely not a great time to have 30 shots per second being calculated

[fallow tulip]

definitely

[halcyon idol]

i also don’t think flak or pd is going to do much if anything against 30 shots per second

[fallow tulip]

still does something

[fallow tulip]

I mean maybe just combine the shots?

[sleek gale]

huh?

wouldn't that just be the same as making it 15/s or something

[fallow tulip]

like instead of 30 shots per second it's 10 shots per second but each shot is 3x the power of a regular one

[sleek gale]

idk, doesn't sound as fun

[fallow tulip]

maybe not actually nvm

yeah

[dull agate]

Hitscan isn't the issue though so why temper with that?

[fallow tulip]

cause I was thinking of getting flak to hit CG rounds

[pine apex]

indavidual bullets would just turn it into a lag gun

[fallow tulip]

but nvm

[lyric flame]

I think a price increase of the base chaingun would be really good bc you could have less chain guns that sustain for longer, but you need to protect them more now bc you don't have 26 of them

I could even see a 50% increase in price

[fallow tulip]

as in back to 18k?

[lyric flame]

Oh that was base price... sure, if not more actually

[fallow tulip]

I think rc4 should have CG price at 15k

seems like a good spot at least for now

[rich prawn]

haven't confirmed this but according to my limited knowledge of explosion damage application i think that the CG actually kinda doesn't get any bonuses...

iirc it applies damage according to the blocks taken in the physical rect and not colliders

[buoyant tree]

did not think Admiral was gonna be used as an example, thanks (you can take it it’s just a quick little ship

also fun fact: i had literally 0 inention of using that as a mp pvp ship

like i have never ever played a pvp gamemode in mp in my 4 years

[sleek gale]

oh oops xd, it looked like a fancy pvp ship to me

[next marsh]

i'd like to fight you

[fervent plover]

you hate my ship so much lmao

[royal summit]

15-16k as of now, making price 17-18k might be worth considering, although i think that might be too much

[pine cargo]

Very cheesible and unimportant ''nerf.''

[sleek rover]

they already have a placement limitation due to the magazines

[royal summit]

that only applies to one direction

and only to a 2x1 area

[leaden patrol]

i dont get why it needs more, whats the issue with putting two side by side?

[opaque totem]

So I made like a lot of different archtypes and prototypes with the cahin gun yet and have 2 things I would recommend but first of all:

I like the gun, finally a projectile weapon with high bullet speed and fire range simialr to blaster that can be used to counter speed meta ships on more heavy ships, as with its range and bullet speeds its finally able to hit them. should be a good addition to make the meta less stale.

however 2 things that i think need worked on:
1: direct control behaviour:
when the gun is used with a limited fireing arc, as it kidna has to if you dont make a wall avoider/ orbiter and instead try to make something out of meta, then the gun often stoped fireing. this happens bcs the gun often doesnt shot at the mouse and instead shots at a random location instead, and then hits something of your ship that blocks it, ending the fire and starting to reload. the guns would need some more smothnes in aiming at the mouse curser.
2: MOST IMPORTANT:
I think the gun should have a feature similar to prisms that you can lock it at a certain position with its fireing arc.
this way the gun can be used similarly like an ioan inside a ship with smart ship building, the problem is just as mentioned above that the gun isnt smartly firing trough the fireing hole, even when its big enough, and even stops fireing at the mosue curser if it starts to randomly jump around and hit inside armor.
if the fireing arc could be fixed like with a prism, then it would be possible to "cheese" a fix for this problem, and make it possible to build more creative ship types that use the chain gun inside their ships like ioans. without this feature i fear the gun will only be used as an outside weapon on walls, wasting a lot of its potential.

(a fixing fireing arc feature would make the weapon more interesting for ship building, and even if the AI would be perfect and it would fire on its own perfect trough holes (which is probably hard to implement so I doubt it) it would still be a good idear to make a feature that fixes fire arc.
it could be combined with a little advantage to compensate for the negative effect of removing its own fire arc like stableizing the weapon, reducing its spread when fixed at a point to shot at.)

for reference:
stuff like this is where the gun randomly stops shoting despite the opening being bug enough. when just standing inf ront of each other the weapon fires perfectly trough the hole. when moving it doesnt fire at all. and even with direct control while holding the mosue at all time perfecta t the opening it stoped fireing as it sometiems randomly jumps around with the position to fire it when fireing while moving the ship.
for these kind of design idears a fixed fire arc like ioan prisms would be a perfect and imo needed feature.

as you can see the opening is more then wide enough. so the problem comes trough movement as i described above. a fixing for the fire arc would solve these issus and open up many more ship building possibilitys like these and is easy to implement as you can reuse the code of the prisim.

[dire wraith]

1. Just use autofire
2. from what I know this is actually planed but not high priority

[soft scroll]

Yknow in a way chainguns feel kinda similar to ion prisms

It’s like a ion prism that takes ammo

[next marsh]

chaingun are fundamentally different with a strong brust damage while ion are about sustain

[sleek gale]

ions are high strain all the time while chains are high strain every now and then, the payoff for chains seems much higher though assuming ions have the same overall dps

[fallow tulip]

they don't feel like any other weapon imo

cause all the strain on the reload/upkeep happens when the weapon isn't firing, kinda like a boost thruster connected to an engine room

the only way I could honestly relate it to an ion is ion cores (depending on how they are set up) do more damage after a little bit cause they stop flickering

[royal summit]

honestly chainguns are kinda similar to ion capacitors, just tankier with ammo usuage

[hollow ferry]

@everyone RC4 is ready for testing! Changelog at bottom of original post: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/799600/view/6789795183860996115

(Stable update on Monday most likely.)

[dire wraith]

No op chaingun tourney 😦

[next marsh]

i still wish they can counter most of the current archetype
but that would help the new one to take the lead

[quaint copper]

Hmm, does that increased time to retract help in the case that target gets obscured by own ship hull for a moment?
Had a few cases where it starts firing for a moment then hits own ship and instantly deactives.
Might just be my bad ship design ^^

[hollow ferry]

No, and I think that should have been fixed in RC3? The actual targeting no longer "retracts".

[quaint copper]

Nods, can't remember which build I was attempting. Just built the chainguns into ships wings, and so when enemy got close it started to hit own ship and turn off forever (until refilled)

[lyric flame]

18k seems like a good price to me, we shall see

[dusky plank]

Talk to @boreal fjord or me

[celest coral]

if I don't leave the game I can keep op cg's

[next marsh]

magazines cost stood the same, so imo alpha is still high in the meta

[dusky plank]

If you wanna see some good HEAVY armored laser ships

[royal summit]

magazine cost has little to do with alpha, i think it actively encourages other types

[next marsh]

nevermind i got scammed, it's not meta archetype

[opaque totem]

autofire doesnt work. thats the point of the thing i said. I explained the AI doesnt shot at all trough the gap, and with target fire it doesnt do it either, and with manual fire it has random behaviour that keeps stoping it from fireing

[opaque totem]

i kidna disagree on that. if you add enough magazines it can shot for quite a long time, having good dps

[opaque totem]

also my hope. if chain gun counters current meta ships (basicly all fragile meat ships) then these ships stop domianting the barrier of entry. then ships that counter ships like heavy armored DPS ships would become viable as counters for chain, and the original speed stuff still stays relevant as it counters these heavily armroed slower ships, but the key word is "relevant", not meta defiening.

[pine cargo]

Slight cg nerfs, very nice.

They'll still be strong though, which is good I'd say.

[opaque totem]

this is exactly what i mentioend as well in my post. Thats why i suggested a fixed fireing point like ioan prisim. would introduce more deppth to ship designing.

[royal summit]

moreso, it's balanced in that it can compete with other weapons without being broken

[boreal fjord]

i sorry my bad

[rich prawn]

the mass of the chaingun changes whenever the shell is inactive

explosion resistance doesnt appear to actually take effect

i suggest making the whole part get buffed in explosion resistance (iirc explosions are cauculated based on part rect)

[pine cargo]

Yes.

Honestly, a hitscan weapon should have major disadvantages as it is innately immune to active defences.

[inner kraken]

While mass chaingun has a use, and some nerfs to account for it, I still haven’t seen a strong moderate or light use yet. Until I do, I’ll be concerned that the chaingun is weak unless it’s massed, and only massed in elimination. I don’t see much reason to build one in career mode where exposed, easily destroyed weapons that require EVA to reload would be less than ideal.

[dull agate]

I agree, I can't imagine using this weapon in career. However, in PVP it performs pretty well. I have been trying a few ideas which I'll come back to after further testing.
I'm beginning to see players make different designs that could make it a decent choice in both Career and PVP. Something to keep an eye on

[fallow tulip]

yeah, most chaingun ships ive seen/built have 20-30 chainguns

[opaque totem]

thats why i proposed that the chain gun should have a feature to lock its fireing arc like you can do with an ioan prism in this feedback #1151672136885354629 message. this way you could build ships with an chain gun core and shot out of it, making it possible to protect the weapon better. atm these builds dont work as the weapon stops fireing when it randomly hits the inside armor and then instantly starts reloading.
but such a feature would open up for builds with more options.

[supple sleet]

Thats a hyper specific niche option (that in a certain sense all guns probably ought have, not just CGs specifically) that would be a lot more time and development expensive than buffing them in some way

[sleek rover]

It's not that time intensive to add locked targetting

[supple sleet]

Compared to changing one number in the code...

[sleek rover]

you're being disengenious about the effort needed to be taken, in order to shoot down someone's suggestion

allowing locked targetting requires a grand total of 3 lines of code (at minimum). It's not a herculean effort to add it

[supple sleet]

Disengenious implies I know how difficult it is, so I apologize for my inexperience. Regardless, the suggestion is still overly specific and could be applied to any weapon, and in that sense it would be superior to buff the chaingun in such a fashion that it applies to only it specifically.

[dire wraith]

It also has been said before that its on the list but not high priority

[fallow tulip]

honestly it could be possible to ask redstone to work on it as a part of the balance mod beacuse it's a small feature

but that should be thought about more when balance mod stuff is tested

[dire wraith]

It dont know if its really that simple as part of a mod. It requires new gui elements for example. But Im not very familiar with the system.

[fallow tulip]

yeah, I'm just saying cause it's a small thing it could be thrown on (iirc either cgt or redstone was making some new mine graphics)

on an unrelated note
chaingun mags should chain like rails

[fervent plover]

i agree

[fallow tulip]

adding on to this, the chaingun itself should take damage from the mags chaining, not that much

[dull agate]

I don't like the idea of the magazines chaining.
If one rail module is destroyed the rail is no longer usable so having it chain doesn't do much anyways. Aside from the loader module exploding.
If one magazine is hit the chaingun can still function. Which won't be the case with chaining.

[halcyon idol]

isn’t that the point

[dull agate]

I find it to be an unnecessary nerf 🤷‍♂️

It means we'll have to invest heavily in protecting the magazines.
Remember that the chaingun's price was reverted to 18k. Adding heavier defenses to cover the length of the magazines adds a couple thousand more credits

[opaque totem]

the code already exists for the prism. if the game is a little bit well organized in the code the code can just be reused, by making a reference on it. that takes like 10 to max 30 minutes depending on how orgranized it is writen maybe even 5.
also its a beter change then buffing them as a buff also buffs wall builds for chains which are already strong, while such a feature only affects more tanky core builds without buffing already viable wal builds

and other weapons dont synergize with a core as wella s coil guns and ioans. the thing is: coils and ioans can get their dps increased on 1 fire output, by combining beams or adding more ammonitiun. thats why a few coilguns could be used to fire trough a small opening like an ioan and still have good dps, while having like 6 blaster fire trough a hole does to little dps to be usfull.

I rly hope a fixed fire arc option comes, better sooner then later as it seems important for creative ship building and other options just then the same ship types that exist since game release.
also an additional cool thing: coil and ioan could then be used combined, in which the coil and ioans both fire trough the same core trough an opening, being a good addition to each other. (which is also rare as normaly weapons dont synergize well bcs al weapons work so different atm)

[halcyon idol]

All weapons should have fixed arc perhaps

[opaque totem]

yeah ofc in the long run. I just see less practical usage for any weapon but chain/ ioan as you cant have a core with 20 weapons, the fire hole would need to be to large. and limiting the arc only makes sense when you must shot trough a hole. but ioan and chain can have good dps with only 2-8 fireing stations, as you can increase it otherwise by adding chain amo / combining lasers, resulting in a smaller gap neeeded to fire trough.

Thats why I think a fixed fire arc option is an important matter for chain guns, to make them usable like ioans. after al atm only ioans can be used in such a way fireing trough a hole. Its something that should come asap, as then the test server can test all the new possible designs

[rich prawn]

adding to these kinda bug related notes:
i think shields lost their explosion resistance? they had 50% but

now there's nothing in the code or the dll code even

[rich prawn]

i was using a modded chaingun with burst = 2, got a sudden sharp spike in lag then crashed, i know it's not exactly vanilla but it's a re-statted chaingun

The weapon:
just rename BossParts group to something else like Defenses
should work (it uses zero new sprites)

[fallow tulip]

honestly your fully right

[pine cargo]

Immtrm's Rain Wave is very good.

[supple sleet]

You can put anything on that shape and it will win. Furthermore that will almost certainly lose to a normal equivalent

[pine cargo]

I played quite a few matches vs him and I had surprisingly far more trouble than I've ever had with regular cannon walls. Hitscan nature paired up with good turret rotation and excellent ark not only allows it to orbit far better than its ion and flak counterparts, but it also manages to deal a lot of consistent damage once ramped up.

[dull agate]

From what I've seen so far, CG walls generally beat other kinds of walls. However, it still loses to alpa CG vessels, same as most archetypes

[pine cargo]

Yes, that is true.

More dakka=more good

[next marsh]

just like flaks

[dull agate]

Cg wall beats flak wall

[fervent plover]

#ask-walt message

@quick valley I have good news, you can test it right now on the release candidate :)

[opaque totem]

thats exactly the type of ship design I hope the chain gun will keep in check as it should hardcounter them, but we rly need alternative building ways for that.
(fixed fire arc for other possible designs 😉 )

all weapons in this game are just to front loaded (as most have to be at front or cant shot over each other (DC) that wall designs become to natural with them.

[pine cargo]

Yeah, I dislike the wall part of pvp too, because they're really generic not to mention un-space ship like. Fortunately stuff like ions, rails and missiles exist.

[tidal iris]

CG designs with aspect on DPS/alpha already beats any light ships. Furthermore, Alpha CG V-shaped ships can reach around 150m/s with boosters and it is speed meta again. Again.

[rich prawn]

i will put my bug notes into actual reports later

[opaque totem]

but such designs lose to any more tanky CG design as well as other weapons like DC/ nuke with mroe tanky designs which is why the CG has potential to change the meta finally. sadly more tanky designs probably will need a core design which is why iam so keen on the featrue to fix fire arc.

[tidal iris]

change meta finally
Gl with that lol

[lone dust]

If the chaingun costed even more (lets say... another 4 K) but did more damage (lets say 15%), would this be better in terms of ship design?
I would assume this would lead to building less chainguns in favor of more mags, but maintains the dps per cost. It also means more emphasis on the few chainguns as they are valuable, but still relatively brittle when firing.
What do you guys think?

[rich prawn]

problem is that a increase in damage wouldn't really work because parts have that threshold and doesn't spread if it takes more damage than it has

[pine cargo]

I think having it be more expensive but have ramp-up twice as long plus potential fire rate twice as high (If the game's tickrate is 30 then maximum of 30 shots per hit would be possible) would be a very cool thing.

That'd mean people would inherently need more mags to achieve the gun's full potential.

Maybe make the ramp-up over twice as long too, because it feels like chaingun is best maintained at its max fire rate and reaching that said fire rate cap is pretty easy.

To me specifically, not sure about the others, a windup weapon should be solely focused on the WINDUP part of it because that's what makes it so goddamn cool.

And that's one way to do that.

[tidal iris]

Mags logistic already sometimes is hard part for not just V ships.

[dull agate]

I just built this ship considering chainguns cost an extra 4k credits.

[tidal iris]

And I'm doubt that increased ramp-up will do any kind of nerf to alpha CG. It's just a simple timing with start of fire. And it will be hurtfull for any other archetypes.

[rich prawn]

isn't alpha.... 3/4ths of the point of s chaingun? i don't see the issue here much

[lone dust]

lmao, maybe more than 4 then. I guess 4 is pretty small in terms of reducing number of chainguns, considering that the mags account for roughly 40% of the costs

[rich prawn]

i personally think instead of just ramp up time i think the extend and pull back time should be increased as well

and since that's a thing turret rotation speed could also go down

[tidal iris]

Boosters solve that problem

[rich prawn]

thats more investment in the ship

[tidal iris]

No

[rich prawn]

damm i'm literally without something to say back idk what to say

[tidal iris]

Already full of boosters

[rich prawn]

i see

[rich prawn]

still, i think it's just a bit too fast to be in theme with a "possibly heavy armored weapon"

i'd wonder if 1.25x the shell opening and turret rotation would feel better

[tidal iris]

Debuff relatively on increasing of number of chainguns would solve that problem, but to be honest it is just cringe, since we have creative game in first order, not PvP.

[rich prawn]

game is trying to do both things and balance is really hard especially to fit both...

we could start coming up with more arbitrary ways to nerf chainguns

[dull agate]

My issue with simply increasing the price of the chaingun is that it limits its viability in other designs. It will solve the issue of spamming them on alpha builds. However, for other contraptions that only use a few of them, an increase in price seems like an unnecessary nerf which will further decrease how well those ships perform.
Something else should be changed but I don't have a suggestion to offer for now

[rich prawn]

crew stun? not good
accuracy gets lower the longer it fires? sounds interesting to me
shots deflect at too sharp angles? too arbitrary and needs new code
chaingun speed lowers with nearby chainguns? too artificial

[lone dust]

even with the damage buff to compensate for the nerf?

[dull agate]

For ships that only use 4-8 of them, that's 16-32k extra credits which means other important parts will have to be removed. I can only speculate but I'm not sure the damage buff would compensate sufficiently.
However, since we're in the RC and there's no rush, we can put a rain check on this discussion and come back to it after those changes are implemented. We'll experiment and bring new arguments to the table

[lone dust]

hmm, I see. yeah makes sense. thanks

[rich prawn]

i think the chaingun is just such a offshoot weapon nothing already existing compares

[hollow ferry]

IIRC shields never had explosive damage resistance? (Armor did and still does.)

[rich prawn]

i might be hallucinating
might be confusing with absorption and another stat like penetration

[leaden patrol]

jani how is this an issue
it takes quite a few shots for it to kill armor, how would a dps increase not work???

[rich prawn]

depending on the damage added

if it added 2 damage for example it would only buff shield damage

if it reduces the damage for a armor block from 8 shots to less would be cool but needs that threshold

[inner kraken]

I think raising the damage along with the price of chain guns is a good route to finding the right balance. If the damage is high enough to account for the cost, it'll see plenty of action. If it isn't, it won't.

[dull agate]

I do like this idea, fully embracing the burst damage concept

Increasing the ramp up time won't do much as you can force fire early

[pine cargo]

But it will surely waste a lot more ammo in the process so doing that process early wouldn't be all that worth it.

[dull agate]

If you time it right a certain balance can be found

[fallow tulip]

honestly a "heat" mechanic for the chaingun would be awesome. if you hit the heat limit you have to wait until it fully cools down to fire again but there is the possibility of just balancing it in the middle of the heat range.

with this there is possibilities of extra parts for passive and active cooling.
passive cooling parts take damage to reduce the heat of an adjacent chaingun, eventually it will ablate away and need to be replaced.
active cooling parts would use energy to cool the chaingun at a higher rate than the passive cooling but would be more expensive and would require energy.

this change would make chainguns feel more focused on burst damage as it's harder to keep them constantly firing

[royal summit]

heat just feels like another reload

i don't know how it could work, it either wouldn't matter much or the logistics would get too complicated

[fallow tulip]

it kinda does but it would help the chaingun feel actually modular and would help discourage the alpha no reload designs in pvp

[royal summit]

yeah but i don't know how it could work logistically

[fallow tulip]

ah

[royal summit]

passive cooling wouldn't be hard to manage

active cooling is the problem, you kinda have to make a really big logistics networks that would arguably make the cg worse

[fallow tulip]

yes

[royal summit]

active cooling might not be worth it, most people are going to spam the passive one instead

[fallow tulip]

ig

active cooling to me at least conceptually feels like something people would use in career more

[royal summit]

i think having cooling units that take energy from mags (which will get an energy storage) to cool the gun would be better

[royal summit]

they would use it in career it would just be very convoluted and hard to manage

[fallow tulip]

yeah ig

the best way I can explain it is like ammo for a railgun. railguns mostly use energy but still can get benefits out of ammo storage

[royal summit]

having one cooler that works passive and active depending on whether it's getting energy would be good at achieving that effect

[fallow tulip]

instead of the weapon shutting down overheat could reduce fire rate, damage the weapon, make it less accurate ect.

but idk about that option

as it makes the CG feel 'experimental'

[royal summit]

don't think it should damage the weapon but making it less accurate and fire slower would be interesting

[fallow tulip]

yeah

[royal summit]

it could also prevent the gun from getting armored

would make the weapon very interesting to use and engineer ships around

[fallow tulip]

honestly I think less accurate, less damage and can't go into armor mode is the perfect overheat mechanic

I also think that overheat would work better as a value not a condition
explanation: instead of having the weapon either be overheated or not it would be a proggressive thing. instead of having to wait for the weapon to fully cooldown you would just have to get it back withing normal operation temps.

[royal summit]

i think having a state where it fully overheats preventing it from firing and going back inside for 5 seconds (or less) would be good

[fallow tulip]

yeah

but im saying that that could be baseline but you can overheat it more

[royal summit]

the full overheat would be achieved at about 200% temperature

[fallow tulip]

yeah

[royal summit]

(for reference the normal temp would be 0%, the overheat effects start at +100%)

[fallow tulip]

yeah

full overheat could be incredibly dangerous but idk

[royal summit]

it should, it would probably take ~10 mags to achievable though

[fallow tulip]

10 mags at constant firing?

[royal summit]

yeah

just an approximation though

depending on how many seconds that is on max firerate

[fallow tulip]

i was thinking without cooling it would be 6 mags to get to overheat 8 mags to get to max temp

[royal summit]

you'd probably have to fire for a decent time (3-4 seconds) on full firerate to fully overheat (without cooling, assuming they would increase the time to overheat)

[fallow tulip]

yeah

idk i dont know how to design weapon function curves and stuff

@lone dust do you think a CG overheat function could theorectically work well?

[quick valley]

I can see this being in career but i dont think the pvp community will accept this too well

[royal summit]

depending on how the cooling is implemented it could work for both pvp and career

[fallow tulip]

yup

[royal summit]

if it requires power it wouldn't work for the pvp community, if it's passive it would, i'm assuming it's passive with an active boost

[fallow tulip]

two seperate parts

[royal summit]

i think combining them into one would be better

[fallow tulip]

passive that takes damage to reduce heat
actuve that uses energy to reduce heat

[royal summit]

i think passive should just provide cooling for free, it would just be very slow

[fallow tulip]

maybe, but imo it wouldnt make sense cause passive would be cheaper

[royal summit]

making it work kinda like the boost thruster

passive and active would probably cost 1k

active being more efficient while passive saves you from a logistical headaches

[fallow tulip]

passive 1k active 3k with active being 4-5 times better per tile

but idk

[royal summit]

i think making one more expensive than the other is an unneeded limitation

[fallow tulip]

i dont know how to balance something that hasnt been tested yet

the passive one is designed to get destroyed while the active one isnt