#Beam DECK Turret - please, without spam there is another topic flooded by it

240 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

lapis socket
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deck beam turret, with range similar to ballistic one, i would make it with cooldown, so after shooting, there is a time preventing it to shoot again, so it wont be OP as beam. When it shoots it cant be refueled, it can shoot again only when refueled to max but refueling can start after cooldown ends. or EMP effect that disabled buildings around in 6 range area from turret for 1-2 seconds. such weapon would be a diversity not only with visualization but also with approach in strategy layer. it should be big, 5x6 size, so preventing spamming such weapons.
there is not enough of diversity with weapons, and as we have Ammo based deck turret, it would be nice to have other options too.
i see it in size 5x6, crew req 5-6. command points 10. mass 35, HP 20000, damage/s 6000/s, range 190, accurate, firing arc 270deg, turret speed 20
why such idea? because i want diversity, i want to have possibility to choose if i want to go with Deck Cannon with specific pros and cons, or i want to go with beam with its own pros and cons (why beam and not laser? because i like beams and we have some lasers already in game)
im open for suggestions but mostly its idea for WALT to make him think about this at all, its not yours or mine call if such weapon will exist in game.
keep it civil and write if you have anything useful to say. if you are against such weapon, post idea how it can be improved so it can be added at all. remember, more options that you can choose from is better, than one. always.

bitter hinge
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Random balance idea for a ion beam deck cannon: cooling down weapon cause fire in weapon so you need fire extinguishers and crew to manage the weapon so that it has a downside to infinite ammo and such, another persons idea need fire extinguishers next to it to keep fires out and has a cool-down on using e fire extinguishers to cool off the weapon so it has to go to downcharge state when waiting on extinguishers to recharge so that the weapon can be charged and used again. This is simply a balancing idea you can ignore it or add on to it just don’t speak nonsense about fire bad just ignore this idea if you don’t like it and don’t want to think about it

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This time going to keep posting civil and not talk about anything about denying the idea just balancing and that’s it in this post ignore any fact it will or will not be added due to what Walt sead just talk about balancing here and that is all

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Keep it on topic

lapis socket
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i liked idea when someone said, it would need a lot of energy, like crazy huge amount to shoot, depleting all of it, then after cooldown it could be refueled. also that way it would slow refueling nearby buildings that need it

bitter hinge
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Random balancing idea:once it drains all go it’s energy it drains the energy of all buildings nearby it even if behind armour then it takes time and can be charged and can only shoot when fully charged repeating the cycle of depowering everything when weapon stops firing and can’t be charged when firing and can’t stop firing once firing

brittle pilot
bitter hinge
lapis socket
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At least in career mode

bitter hinge
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This weapon would never be used in small ships and by the 2nd system you have enougth to make that many just to power the gun.if you want it to be powered up by the drain instead of the drain being a downside it makes it completely broken

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In career mode by the time I get to the 2nd system I have most blueprints I need and have over 30 enriched uranium rods extra even having 4 different medium sized ships with multiple reactors in them

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And that’s just me with my unoptimised ship designs and unoptimised ship salvaging

lapis socket
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BP is not building itself, i get what yousay, but 9 reactora means a lot of grinding, and mostly more than system, at least its how i have it now

bitter hinge
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I have gotten enougth to make them by just playing casually not always focusing on getting the reactor salvage

grim ledge
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Always remember, balance is most important in MP pvp

bitter hinge
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And In mp pvp resources don’t matter

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Just what the gun ship does, piloting strategy, ship cost depending on the game type your doing

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And now everyone stop talking about emp powering up the weapon before this turns into the previous post

sly bone
brittle pilot
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For a weapon that has the range of a deck cannon?

bitter hinge
# brittle pilot For a weapon that has the range of a deck cannon?

With no aim requirements it’s a beam and it gaining power from the more things it emps an yes deck weapon remember it can be armoured to the inside and shields on the far outer armour meaning you hitting that majorly armoured part which now has a giant burning laser eating through all your armour ships armour in seconds due to it being powered up by the more reactors as if it’s a railgun accelerator as I said already do you want this to turn back into the previous post where we go back and forth on nonsense we disagree on since none of you seem to grasp how powerful this weapon would be and it getting even more strength by what is supposed to be the downside of the weapon is just dumb

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And the range of a deck weapon is not small

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It’s still decently sisable amount that any ship that would get in the range of your suggested fully powered laser not the size of a capital ship will have its hull shredded immediately with no way of dodging it and since it can be armoured in super far in no way to stop the weapon by using emp meaning your getting hit by the weapon and there is no stopping it

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Imedietly getting to their command centers and reacors and boom whole your ship is hiding behind many layers of armour which is I touchsble to the normal weapons other then a railgun oh wait that gets stopped immediately no matter the strength by a shield so placing one in front and dodging emp fire and boom your a unstoppable ship

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Please think about balance as said before I want to keep this post to discussing possible balancing not dealing With the same exact thing as the other post arguing over how giving it more strength over weaknessss is unballanced just give ideas don’t argue over this not being a downside or whatever you want to say just give ideas and post on other peoples ideas possible downsides to implementing that not if you see it as “not a downside”

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Not more of this stupid arguing

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That’s going to continue if we do this

lapis socket
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I think no one consider deck turret as capital ship weapons, while all other non deck / normal weapons are more like fighter kind, frigate, agile kind weapons, i see it that way

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And about turret behind 100000 packs of armor... Why you keep reactors behind armor, or cockpit. Armor argument is invalid

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Ship works as long as it has power and cockpit

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Not when you destroy weapon

bitter hinge
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Massive railgun = capital ship spinal weapon , ion beam prism core with over 8 ions=capital ship weapon, deck cannons above destroyer clsss main weapon or capital ship cannon class weapon , but what your suggesting is a massive laser with no aim requirement with massive power with litre to no drawbacks

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If your going with this horrible idea of instead balancing it by giving it downside make that downside power up the gun even more to shreds through ships

lapis socket
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Nope, ion is also spinal weapon

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Same as mining beam, im using it all the time with great success

bitter hinge
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… I don’t think you know what spinal weapons mean

lapis socket
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Unless you wont balance deck beam, it will be as you say, true, but thats the point, balance

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Its harder to balance it than just ban it

bitter hinge
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Omg you people just dont listen do you

lapis socket
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But if you go that way, ban most weapons that are already coming

bitter hinge
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This entire time of been trying to help you balance your idea by giving ideas

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And you are starting arguments over this nonsense again. Do you want this post to devolve to the 500 message post like before without any coherence

bitter hinge
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So could you please if you want this to not just be nonsense again sit down and let’s just type about BALANCE IDEAS AND ONLY THAT

lapis socket
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I just did

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You dont like my way of thinking from very beginning

bitter hinge
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No you did not provide A BALANCE IDEA you just spouted nonsense about armour being a invalid argument

lapis socket
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Cus it is

bitter hinge
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that’s called a argument

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So please shut up and only post balance IDEAS

lapis socket
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You cant say all the time that deck sits behind armor so its unbalanced

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Deck cannon is behind armor, so this argument shouldnt be brought any time again

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Everything else, i agree

bitter hinge
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I TOLD YOU ALREADY DO YOU WANT THOS SHIT TO DEVOLVE AGAIN FINE

sly bone
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There's a few vanilla ship designs in the 12-14 range that have exposed Deck Cannons; they hit REALLY hard, but after you manage to crack its hull, its damage is easily halved due to the chain explosions taking out about half of the Deck Cannons

bitter hinge
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OKAY HERE WE GO deck cannons are behind armour yes but they require ammo THEY HAVE A LIMMIT on what they can do they have a downside like stuning crew to slow down reloading , your idea of charging massive fuck off beam by using the power of absorbing all the energy of reactors and everything else near it meaning it doesn’t even need to be either powered or that it just has stupid high damage for no reason with no drawbacks and it does not require you aiming it shoots and it will hit you this type of weapon you would hide behind armour much much armour just because of the sheer damage it can do just by having reactors there which armour can can’t the explosion of it gets shot out for the rest of the ship will function perfectly normally you sugges a super powered laser that can hide Inside armour which will melt through anything with no downside please shut the fuck up you wanted this to be civil so please shut up with your pathetically bad arguments against balancing ideas AND ACTUALY PROVIDE BALANCONG IDEAS PROS AND CONS NOT just shooting down every dam idea to balance your weapon by giving it downsides and not making it even stronger

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@lapis socket

violet moth
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here we go again

lapis socket
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That the purpose of balancing DECK beam turret, so it can be behind armor as cannon conterpart. So again, bringing armor thing over and over is pointless. All deck weapons will be behind armor

bitter hinge
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REAAAAD

lapis socket
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And sir Azler, you read i stated how i see weapons thats all. If you think that only your ideas are valid, then your are wrong

sly bone
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Also, uh, never underestimate the potential stupid designs that people make (namely me, and my friend who is new). Locking down the weapon balance to only being behind hella armor limits how it can be used, which just feels bad, viable or otherwise.

bitter hinge
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Armouring your weapon would be a requirement if you want it to operate at full power by draining every single reactor near it and so that your reactors don’t damage any other part of your main ship letting your big fuck of led beam be fully powered Delian stupid amounts of damage

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Pleas fuking read

brittle pilot
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This is the second post you are doing this, Azler

bitter hinge
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Maybe read what I typed

brittle pilot
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If he doesn't want to stop, then YOU stop

violet moth
bitter hinge
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I litraly stated to only keep to ACTUSL BALANCING IDEAS

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but all you want to do is argue and not just put actual ideas down here

lapis socket
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Dude ppl have differe t ideas, you snap when you dont like them, chill

bitter hinge
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Scroll up you didint post a single idea you posted a argument that sead armour is a invalid statement

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That is not a idea nor a up side or a down side to a idea

bitter hinge
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You wanted a proper post with ideas not this stupid argument shit so keep it to just pros and cons and ideas not this denying of shit

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And no I’m not snapping at ideas I dont like im stating what could possibly go wrong with that idea while your going OH WOW LOOK AT THAT BAD STATMENT NOOOO instead actually stating pros and cons to possible issue with ideas

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Maybe if you learnt to read you would learn to actually have a normal debate about balance not just dennyong everything outright

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By giving PROS AND CONS TO A IDEA

sly bone
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Based purely on the concept and a few keywords, here's what I feel would feel good to build with:

3x3 Deck Beam Cannon
Damage equal to 3x Ion emitter
Fires in bursts, discharging the entire power reserve each time, and requiring a full charge before firing.
Has enough health to be a little weaker than a full-size Deck Cannon, but explodes just as hard due to the number of power cells inside

5x5 Deck Dual Beam Cannon
Damage equal to (2x) 4x Ion Emitter
Fires in bursts, BUT can be toggled to fire alternatively like the Heavy Laser Cannon, then instead requiring 75% charge
Has a bit more than the scaled health from the 3x3, same with explosion damage.

Note: this is aside from the entire discussion, besides the concept brought up.

lapis socket
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Nice thing

bitter hinge
lapis socket
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Can we just ignore Azler?

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I would go with 5x6 size

sly bone
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I think we should all just agree that each of us have a different ideal version of the concept.

lapis socket
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Thats true

bitter hinge
# lapis socket Can we just ignore Azler?

There is a reason I have you blocked since you can’t seem to take actual ideas and you just want to argue against any idea made instead of listing PROS AND CONS

lapis socket
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Also these ideas are for DEVs not for us anyway

sly bone
bitter hinge
lapis socket
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When it comes to dmg i would make it indeed weaker as it might have good accuracy

bitter hinge
bitter hinge
sly bone
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Correlating to the input batteries, or total batteries stored? I imagine yes.
Hmm, with my concept it would be able to change firing angle while it's firing, as the beam would fire for a full second or two

bitter hinge
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Same with how ion prisms work

mental creek
sly bone
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Understandable.

lapis socket
bitter hinge
sly bone
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ooh, if it gets caught while firing, the explosion could be even bigger! >:D

bitter hinge
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Did you maybe read what was sead afterowords making the beam stronger by absorbing the power of any building / reactor around it ?

bitter hinge
bitter hinge
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By anything that was near it

bitter hinge
sly bone
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Yes, I think? If you look at the Ion Beam Emitter, it's got 10 batteries, each hooked up to its own laser emitter, which is merged to create the final "standard" Ion Beam that we're used to. The Mining Laser, however, has 10 power, three injectors per the two beam emitters.

steel swift
sly bone
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I think all new proposed features should start their life as a mod, for testing purposes.

lapis socket
grim ledge
lapis maple
grim ledge
lapis socket
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thanks i get it, but he also found a solution

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so why not add more weapons and find similar solution for them

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thats a purpose of such topis with ideas to consider

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thats what i was trying from very beginning, find a common ground so we can have more weapons and find nice balance for them

random geode
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ur new here so u dont know the history of deck cannons but that thing took years of pestering walt to be added in

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its a miracle that it is even in the game

lapis maple
# grim ledge

i have made multiple ideas on causing the weapon's projectile's preformancd to get harmed in some way the longer it travels over the roof of the ship or armor of the ship

finite bronze
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aint there already mods for roof turrets

finite bronze
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if it took so long to get deck cannons

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why do u think wal would add the rest

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since in pvp deck cannons already the new meta

sly bone
# finite bronze aint there already mods for roof turrets

Yes, however the Ideas and Feedback section is for ideas (already made into mods or not) that people would like to be added to the base game. While grabbing a mod in the short run is great, in the long run it's a little silly to potentially ruin a ship's design and blueprint with a block that may end up as part of the base game.

lapis maple
grim ledge
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Technically at any point, Walt could have just quickly put the code of the dc and ion together, years ago even with code that already available deck weapons had, but he chose not to, I wouldn't exactly say this would fit in to cosmoteer if Walt doesn't see it doing so

lapis maple
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im pretty sure he did not because of the lack of components to balance such a weapon (like roof weapon collisions), although i don't really know either

grim ledge
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The idea of a deck weapon had been in the game longer than prisms for ions, balance wasn't the major concern back then, when the game was fresh and getting new things like flak or rails

lapis maple
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idk, walt would have to put their say on new deck weapon ideas

bitter hinge
finite bronze
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yes

lapis maple
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regardless it shouldn't make you against the idea of one just for that alone

bitter hinge
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But either way if Walt ever liked the idea of another deck gun he would design it properly and balance it the way he did with deck guns

grim ledge
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It is a massive " if ", if he would ever add another deck weapon, as he had implicitly stated with his standing on them

lapis maple
bitter hinge
grim ledge
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No matter what is done, another deck weapon will fall into the 2 most common additional weapon categories, to which is too useless or too broken, of it is too accurate and has too much range, most archetypes will just stop existing, otherwise it is just so weak no one uses it, or it is literally just a reskined version of what we already have

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It can be useless if the deck weapon's trademarked brick armour is taken away, players will just stick to dc's

lapis maple
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you are not considering balance methods that haven't been tried before

grim ledge
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No armour = weak deck weapon, I mean it is their one most outstanding feature to be explicitly placed behind armour,

bitter hinge
grim ledge
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On the other hand, if it isn't countered by speed, deck weapons are just too powerful

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Which is where speed meta at least keeps things in check

grim ledge
bitter hinge
lapis maple
# grim ledge No armour = weak deck weapon, I mean it is their one most outstanding feature to...

it should be balanced in a way where there is some good sweet spot in between a problematic amount and problematic lack of armor, with variance based on what the person needs for their ship
considering my idea to degrade the projectile the longer it travels above your ship or armor, you could go directly for the sweet spot where its the perfect ratio, but even then, this could not be the best due to targeting the enemy ship at an angle from your wall would degrade the projectile more than necessary, so it might be more favorable to use less armor with that in mind

bitter hinge
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One idea I gave was to cause fires in the weapon if fired for too long and if not “cooled”

grim ledge
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As long as it is within 25 tiles of an lr, it can be powered without too much hassle

grim ledge
bitter hinge
grim ledge
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10 layers and you can be easily killed

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That too, the whole ion thing

lapis maple
grim ledge
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Ion is hitscan, not a projectile

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It is instant hit

brittle pilot
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I personally don't think he refers to what we know as a beam

bitter hinge
grim ledge
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Also, unlike surface weapons, deck weapons need armour, they have weak hitpoints and are made to be sheltered in armour

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"beam deck turret"

lapis maple
# grim ledge It is instant hit

hm, about that, what if the beam turret had a mini charge up before it fires were it stops rotated, this would allow the opponent ship to make a movement and offset where the beam would hit or even entirely dodge it depending on how it is handled

bitter hinge
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He sead it’s a ion that fires for a few seconds till it runs out of power and has to recharge

brittle pilot
lapis maple
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mining laser!!!!!

bitter hinge
lapis maple
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the idea of a beam deck weapon can be bent around, it doesn't have to be forced to be an ion one

grim ledge
bitter hinge
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He wanted this to be a substitute for ion prisms because he thinks they don’t look good on a ship

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That was his exact words

grim ledge
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Everything else with only a few exceptions don't exactly dodge

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Indeed

lapis maple
grim ledge
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Also, aren't these turrets able to aim while firing, it's their 1 gimmick

lapis maple
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what

grim ledge
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So you have suggested that there is just a slight delay before the instant hit deck turret fires a continual beam

lapis maple
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im thinking more of a burst beam, possibly with some cool aoe effect on impact

grim ledge
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This post isn't for basically just a deck blaster, that is it's own post, this is a deck ion beam

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Meaning it is presumed to basically be an ion that acts as a dc

lapis maple
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im still talking about the theoretical balance of some sorta deck beam weapon, might make it my own post

lapis socket
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Yhhhh beam. Ion and mining are both beams, doesnt matter which i refer to, you can call it "super duper stop being so literal" beam.

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Anyway, i still think beams looks awesome, deck turrets are needed and are interesting alternative, and sure its an idea, so it need polish, balance etc.

grim ledge
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We already have the DC, the area of deck turrets is ticked off and doesn't technically need any more, and if we do get a deck weapon with bigger range, and is more accurate, no matter the downside it is already better than the dc

lapis socket
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And thats a circle we do all the time. You say we dont need it. But you play pvp and you do only weird designs based on ion, so you dont really care, you are good. You dont want more, as that will break your designs, that you are using for such long time. And there are ppl like me thati want more diversity, if we already have laser, cannon guns, why not more?

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The point is, to find middle ground

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So everyone will be happy, not only you

grim ledge
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You see, the meta is a very fragile thing to the face of new things, and the worst outcome of such is a mono meta where instead of 90% of archetypes being valid, it become just 1 type of archetype that you either play and win, or never win against it

lapis socket
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And again, balance. Allni can read from you ,"bigger range, more accurate" etc. All the time same things. This threat is only an idea. It will always need balance

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And Walt will be executing that idea if he likes it, not us

grim ledge
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Most meta designs aren't that " weird " either, walls are just a lot of surface weapons, orbiters are just missiles, DC and such on monothrust, and are often just square, nothing to strange with it either

grim ledge
lapis socket
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Yeah i understand that, so dont you want to change it? To make more viable designs than only one true design that make sense?

grim ledge
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The meta as it is probably will have the most archetypes ever in it

lapis socket
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In all possible games, if only one design makes sense, from inlimited options, then it means game is designed badly

grim ledge
lapis socket
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I think it is now, if you need to do only one meta design

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There is not much of strategy here

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If all use one design

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So no, it cant be worse by adding more options

grim ledge
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There isn't 1 design to rule them all, there are many different types of them, even niches such as UL msf's have done great in competitive

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You should play more semi-competitive elimination

lapis socket
grim ledge
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Walls aren't the only archetype

lapis socket
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Listen, i wont forse my idea, cuz im not in the place for that

grim ledge
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Rails and ions for example, ion rammers, avoiders, and kiters

lapis socket
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But also You wont stop it, if Walt change his mind

grim ledge
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Neither would you change his mind to add it in either

lapis socket
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That why its only an idea, and you should accept that someone is thinking differently, thats all

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And we argue about it over and over

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This topic should end right after few comments

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If nothing more can be add

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Not attacking personally like Azler did

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You are ok though

lapis maple
grim ledge
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Would you rather have a meta where all guns are included in it, with their own strategies, downsides and upsides, or just a meta where only 1 weapon, a deck weapon you cannot dodge is the entire meta and everything else, cannons, lb's, ions and even dc's are basically unusable just because of that 1 new deck weapon

lapis maple
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at this point you are only thinking about an op weapon, you are not considering the original idea at all and are blatantly assuming that its gonna overpower everything
you arent even arguing against this specific weapon anymore, your arguing again theoretical "mega op weapon"

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and no, you cannot just claim that this specific weapon idea is going to be said theoretical mega op weapon either, you are barely considering how a way or multiple ways of balancing could tie in.
you have already said your point about the original idea, and if you are gonna keep up with not considering the new ideas, it might be best for you to not repeat what you've said

grim ledge
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And yet you still miss the actual point of these statements that fundamentally this concept, or idea as the other one keeps saying without much reason, is not able to be balanced, it is too accurate with too much range, too inaccurate with too little range, copying dc's and basically just being a useless feature because of them, it either has too many downsides it is useless, or not enough and is too powerful,
There is no in-between category for a deck ion, to which it should be known we already have ions and a deck weapon with both boxes ticked

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3 outcomes, that's all

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No perfectly balanced forth outcome

lapis maple
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you are still completely disregarding pretty much ALL the ideas I or others came up with about balancing this, you are only focusing on the unchanged concept
you are not bringing anything by repeating this, please stop

grim ledge
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I have considered everything, the fire, your armour hatred, the other's emp thing, that adjacent reactor thing, the slight cooldown
And it isn't much,
The fire would actually make some half-balanced downside, the emp effect thing is practically useless, the reactor thing is not great either, and the cooldown is easily bypassed,
Along with your armour thing which would actually make it completely useless, a deck weapon only works when behind large amounts of armour, it is why one of the top meta archetypes include dc bricks,

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Don't go assuming so easily

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And don't go ignoring my point either by just saying " he is ignoring all that other stuff "

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Also, with the other one's claim of it supposed to be having 190 range will either make it never used, or dc's never used, depending on how useless it is made, or how broken it is due to it's accuracy,

lapis maple
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you have already stated your thoughts on it, and it really feels like you aren't considering anything new when you restate your points
although for the balance, it gets complicated because its really difficult to know what it would turn into with all the effects in mind, a legitimate method to test here would be useful.

a deck weapon only works when behind large amounts of armour
I'm not entirely sure on this one. it could be designed in such a way where armor isn't needed for it to be useful, you could put it behind another weapon, and with extra range and ability to actually hit at such range, you wouldn't be forced to get so close that damage is unavoidable to utilize them

the main idea of my balance, though, was to prevent things like this:

Rigel.png
grim ledge
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If, instead of it being basically a melee brawler with a large amount of hp, is slow with a close range high DMG attack, where instead it was a long ranged High accuracy, and high damage brawler where you basically just replaced each DC with the ion version that was better in every way, that would be the problem,
Or alternatively those ion turrets are so bad no one uses them

bitter hinge
# lapis maple you have already stated your thoughts on it, and it really feels like you aren't...

That ship is expensive, slow and can’t turn with projectiles that can be destroyed with flak and pd, if those had ions instead and give it emp missiles and instead have backwards thrust instead of forward on the inside you get a ship that is a pain to kill where it can just outrange your weapons, no way to doge and if you can’t stop the emp you have nothing you can do except sit there and die(this is just using the ship you posted not a full blown ship that would be designed for the weapon spam)

lapis maple
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it has a stupid amount of armor in front due to how deck cannons work
with the current deck cannon, its fine due to the weaknesses, but for something like a longer ranged deck cannon type there can be a huge problem

bitter hinge
# grim ledge If, instead of it being basically a melee brawler with a large amount of hp, is ...

There are ways but they wont take any advice or criticisms to their shity powering up weapon by absorbing reactors and other things around it idea, though that doesn’t even matter as this would just make ion prisms redundant and just ruin the whole ion wepaon as what’s the point of having them they aren’t different, and if they are as how skipy and the original poster said then it’s just a weaponised mining laser that isn’t strong enougth to be used by anyone even mele brawlers.

bitter hinge
lapis maple
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yeah that's what i've been trying to do

bitter hinge
# lapis maple yeah that's what i've been trying to do

That’s what everyone on this thread has been trying except they keep ignoring ideas to make the weapon weaker or have some sort of downside to balance it and attempt to turn the downside of a weapon into a way to just make the weapon even stronger

bitter hinge
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Just stop this post and if you want it to continue just only post IDEAS, pros and cons to ideas and that’s it no arguing if a idea should or should not be added just pros and cons to a idea just how i said it should have been done in the beginning if they even want Walt to look at this let alone add it