Yup.
#Make longer rails viable
jolly valve
I too hate fastwalls that are just pathetic excuses of ''Hey let's cram as many guns on a surface area as possible 🤓''
steep ridge
I understand that both of these need to scale down to be balanced
Yeah it's ugly and it incentivises you to build something that is genuinely less interesting
jolly valve
Plus not only are they effortless to make, but don't have cool piloting too.
They just float in one specific direction and smash at their enemies.
steep ridge
It's why I find it so hard to move past the early game career, I just like the little guys more bc they actually depend on weapons, and toppling a system is more catastrophic for both parties.
jolly valve
And no, I intend no insult to avoiders. I personally do not consider avoiders to be fastwalls.
Fatwalls are those monothrust f*ckers to me.
*Fastwalls XD
winter sonnet
ye but long rails with more rail projectile durability can instakill a railkite playing the pd and speed game
it serves as an instant hard counter
winter sonnet
like im really confused why people say projectile durability just promotes more kites
if anything it introduces a counter
sure as hell wouldnt use a kite if i die in half a second to a single volley
without counterplay aswell... nothing a railkite can do vs a "long railfan" if projectile durability scales with railgun length
steep ridge
Balance idea: magnetic fields interact with eachother and mess with the acceleration of each projectile. Aka: rails crammed together are less efficient. They deal less damage per rail and have a short charge time.
winter sonnet
railkites are the issue not rails themselves
steep ridge
Probably dumb
winter sonnet
most people here dont want long rails cuz according to them it promotes kites
steep ridge
Yes but in the career rails stink if you don't spam them, and that's not fun either
winter sonnet
i disagree and in fact argue that long rails can be changed in a way to not favor kites at all
railkites are kinda absurd in carreer
i have 2x8 accel rails
with emp
smashes anything
steep ridge
Maybe the magnetic field of the firing can stunt the electrical power of other devices
steep ridge
Thrusters get less thrust for a little, lasers lose some power and shields take a little bit of damage
winter sonnet
not sure if thats the best way to handle it
cuz that hurts railfans too
tb railfans are fine imo
its kites that are the problem
making long rails counter kites is a good approach id say
more kite counters the better
steep ridge
Yes but railfans don't need their thrust as much to survive
winter sonnet
Yes but railfans don't need their thrust as much to survive
shields are needed doe
steep ridge
They need turning and strafing
winter sonnet
tractor beams too
steep ridge
Then just make it effect thrust
winter sonnet
thats... actually not a very bad idea imo... so long as it doesnt hurt turning speed
steep ridge
It emits from the loader?
So it only effects the rear of the ship?
All I know is that rails are doodie as the primary kinetic weapon and are extremely outclassed by ion beams in cool factor alone
You can design an entire ship around ion beams and it would kick ass. Do the same with rails and you'll find yourself slapping cannons all over it just to keep it viable. That's not a world I wanna live in.
winter sonnet
tb rails are doing pretty well
steep ridge
Yes but it's boring
The ions can decide the whole shape of your ship
And rails just make it long
winter sonnet
wide*
steep ridge
Good point
winter sonnet
railships are boxy rn
steep ridge
Also something I'm not a huge fan of
winter sonnet
well ye i wanna make railships longer
instead of boxy
make it practical to bring tb rails but with long rails instead
would be nice
steep ridge
I want to make them more interesting shapes. I don't like cuboids, rectangular or square.
Maybe the loader is a different profile than the rest of the rail
Or smth
winter sonnet
longer rails allows for more shapes imo
steep ridge
That too
Iunno ion ships are cooler
Every time I see a rail it either looks like a door wedge or I'm genuinely surprised it has a rail.
winter sonnet
actually in my mod where i made longer rails more viable... i copied the front section of my stock ion ship
why? cuz long rails allows u to stack shields
and maintain heavy front armor
steep ridge
Yeah that's kinda nice
steep ridge
You gotta power the shoota so might as well power shields that go in practically the same spot
winter sonnet
ye doe i use capacitors cuz less explodey
steep ridge
Me 2
I've been using a lot of capacitors
They store a lot more than you would think they would be capable of
winter sonnet
the only thing theyre not very good at is powering thrusters lmao
steep ridge
Yeah I don't power thrust with them
I usually put the reactors with the thrust and use capacitors for weapons
past dagger
u were the one that said the new ones would counter pd????
runic mortar
One of the only 2 major counters to rails is pd, make them immune to pd and we have 1 major counter left and rails then upset the balance of balance
Also, to note, even if longer rails armoured up, same range rails can still be kited,
While 1 ship is not turning in their fan or preemptively turned to fan for example a fan of 4, 16 acc rails, it would be unable to fire for just enough time for a prepared and fast enough fan, which only really needs to be faster than the opponent enough to hit that fan, and then scurry off before retaliation
If we had rails able to bypass any of wall, regular UL pd wall avoiders will be hurt the most.
It would also definitely make more railkites because of that, as the biggest counter to a railkite is pd, no pd makes a railkite better
Everything this post has been going for, has entirely been for railkites
undone dagger
Also long rails being a counter to railkites isnt a great argument since thats purely focusing in rails vs rails in the first place. The long railkites would just be better against like every other ship type than a normal railkite
Also if longs rails are just better and also the weakness of it is just itself, isnt that just op
winter sonnet
Also long rails being a counter to railkites isnt a great argument since thats p...
no it wouldnt... long rails would be as efficient as short rails of the same cost
winter sonnet
If we had rails able to bypass any of wall, regular UL pd wall avoiders will be ...
pd is also the only form of defense railkites have against rails... no pd is death to them
winter sonnet
One of the only 2 major counters to rails is pd, make them immune to pd and we h...
stacked shields and weaved armor can also be pretty good vs rails but tends to cost alot and is pretty heavy respectively
winter sonnet
u were the one that said the new ones would counter pd????
context please... you were talking about the basegame
unique peak
So what's the overall consensus so far? I've been trying to keep up with the entire thread. Sounds like we should leave it be?
winter sonnet
hmm id guess the arguments could be condensed long rails would promote kiting (or at least people think it would)
but do note that not one person here thought or said long rails are fine the way they are when explicitly asked but they disagree mostly to the changes i recommended
how others want long rails balanced i do not know
maybe @short compass has some ideas
i dont however agree with people that long rails automatically mean more kites
past dagger
So what's the overall consensus so far? I've been trying to keep up with the ent...
current long rails bad, proposed long rails badder
undone dagger
Proposed long rails would change a lotta balance this game has
But the current ones are weak
split wraith
I too hate fastwalls that are just pathetic excuses of ''Hey let's cram as many ...
hm yeah this game needs some way to reward putting guns elsewhere than all at the front
past dagger
yes i will simply rework the way surface area works
undone dagger
I do feel like long rails need a buff but i cant think of a buff to give it that would make it better than current fans in some (not all) situations thay wouldnt make it super op at the same time
past dagger
they r better in some cases already, they're just ridiculously niche
undone dagger
Eh the some cases currently is very very small
past dagger
slightly better against pd, tighter hole, less defenses needed
winter sonnet
slightly better against pd, tighter hole, less defenses needed
not even close to worth it
past dagger
where did u get that knowledge from
they're also better against kites and sometimes against fans
winter sonnet
must be why long rails are a staple
past dagger
they're also better against kites and sometimes against fans
the matchups r rare enough that it's not worth it
past dagger
must be why long rails are a staple
*plays 2 rounds of mp*
*presumes to know meta*
undone dagger
Btw can rails ever outrun pd
past dagger
yes
undone dagger
Oh so once u reach that speed it takes to outrun pd then its better
Whats ths speed needed tho
past dagger
depends on what angle ur attacking from and how far away the pd is though
winter sonnet
then how about specializing long rails into pd punchers instead of giving them more damage?
past dagger
they already do that decently and i think it's better to encourage hybridization (which already works) than to just "haha longer rail"
winter sonnet
they already do that decently and i think it's better to encourage hybridization...
theyre trash at it rn... nobody here would say long rails are fine the way they are
undone dagger
Huh just had an idea for a fan... how about 1 long rail at 1 side so when u fan that'll fire and bait the pd and then the rest
Wait nvm im pretty sure thats been done b4
winter sonnet
well how about
making the bonus with accelerators also include projectile HP
?
that at least gives incentives to use longer rails beyond the 8 acc length but compromises cost efficiency for "ensured damage"
though id say that actually promotes kites more than anything
maybe its best to just rework railguns as a whole or something
past dagger
theyre trash at it rn... nobody here would say long rails are fine the way they ...
yea, ur making some rare fights have a slightly better chance at the cost of literally every other matchup
past dagger
maybe its best to just rework railguns as a whole or something
i think that would make ppl even less happy
winter sonnet
i think that would make ppl even less happy
then what is the best option? keeping long railguns bad?
undone dagger
The problem is that there isnt an ez fix without breaking something
unique peak
hm yeah this game needs some way to reward putting guns elsewhere than all at th...
I mean adding more turrets with farther range can combat this but then it kinda has the same advantage as fully armored ions and rails
Asymmetric designs are fun in Career but not really practical
split wraith
yes i will simply rework the way surface area works
not what i meant. it can be done with a buff part designed around the aspect
runic mortar
theyre trash at it rn... nobody here would say long rails are fine the way they ...
I say that they are fine the way they currently are
winter sonnet
I say that they are fine the way they currently are
in other words them being bad is a good thing?
cuz long rails being bad is definitely not a good thing tbh
short compass
maybe <@428969794021228544> has some ideas
I do not think long rails need an overall stat boost. instead after the 8th module, when the range increase stops, a new mechanic should be introduced to the railgun. Something that will boost its stats, but indirectly.
if we were to boost its stats, then I'm opposed to doing it incrementally, instead the boost should form another curve which declines as the number of modules grows.
short compass
One of the ways to indirectly boost the railgun stats would be to introduce an AoE on initial impact with the target. Which would enable the railgun to have an additional damage curve along with its usual dps. This would make long rails more suited against heavily armoured opponents, as the aoe helps make a bigger dent in the armour.
The damage curve of this AoE would also begin to flat and at a certain point the AoE radius would stop expanding. (This gives the long rail a clear function in the meta, however it is one other weapons can also serve.)
Another way to boost the railgun would be to give it minor emp damage, which could expand infinitely like the rest of the railgun's stats. This could affect the hit ship parts and exploit logistical weaknesses rather than just structural ones. (This would also slightly nerf shields against railguns)
Last way to boost railguns would be to split its dps curve and penetration curve. Tweaking the way penetration works might be required for this to function, but essentially the idea would be that the railgun could penetrate past armour and deal minor amounts of damage to the inside parts of the ship. However this would have huge impact on weak parts, like corridors, so instead of dealing available damage it would have to divide damage based on the total hp of the ship part. This way corridors could stay intact while functional components would be taken out of order, giving the other players a chance to still counter. (This would keep shields useful against railguns)
winter sonnet
if we were to boost its stats, then I'm opposed to doing it incrementally, inste...
shouldnt it be linear though to prevent bias to short rails?
split wraith
having it linear makes it get insanely op
source: kroom's force
winter sonnet
this is 40x1 vs 4x8... the same cost in rails @split wraith
utilizing my changes
the difference is fairly small
one i can probably adjust
(this is mostly due to the pen growth btw)
looks fairly balanced to me
split wraith
hmmmmm
winter sonnet
the main problem people usually cite is that "long rails means more kites"
because
"whose gonna brawl with long rails"... i fundamentally disagree with this assessment doe
long rails would make excellent brawlers
especially with tractor beams
runic mortar
in other words them being bad is a good thing?
You say they are bad, while you've never used them correctly
runic mortar
One of the ways to indirectly boost the railgun stats would be to introduce an A...
Aoe radius, with penetration, that isn't a Great combination for anything that uses armour
1 penetrating shot, dealing aoe damage all the way down the line may be a little broken
winter sonnet
You say they are bad, while you've never used them correctly
again... there is no use case for them
"more rails" is a better option than "longer rails"
except for very very niche circumstances
runic mortar
You think long rails are made to be tank brawlers like that of an ion Brick, I hold no faith in your ability to actually use them
winter sonnet
mostly involving "hey someone is stuck right up on your face ramming you"
runic mortar
I recommend doing pvp a bit more to actually see how balance works in real time
winter sonnet
You think long rails are made to be tank brawlers like that of an ion Brick, I h...
at this point your insistence that long rails are good puts doubt on you aswell...
winter sonnet
I recommend doing pvp a bit more to actually see how balance works in real time
must be why they arent really a thing
runic mortar
Long rails are Indeed weaker than doing a stack of 8, 8 ACC's, but I will say they aren't entirely useless, a small subset of ships, kiters use longer than 8 acc's, they do decently sometimes, and have more than enough speed to kite
The longer the barrel is, the more space Infront of thruster lines and their exclusion zones you have to use for thrust
winter sonnet
Long rails are Indeed weaker than doing a stack of 8, 8 ACC's, but I will say th...
kiters can use longer than 8 rails for a few reasons imo
- less turntime (which allows them to respond faster)
- more rail speed (which allows punching through defenses better)
- loss of DPS doesnt hurt a kite nearly as much as it hurts a rail brawler
my proposal corrects 2 and 3....
2. long rails can now be inherently more defensible which hard counters kite`s main form of protection (massed PD)
3. DPS now remains consistent regardless of cost
while allowing for
4. greater frontal defensibility with armor plus shields to allow brawling rails to protect the main aperture better while using TBs to help prevent flanking
5. less wide ship which promotes smaller thruster density due to exclusion zones
(both of which promote a brawler type ship)
runic mortar
Rails need to be countered by pd,
It is one of the very few things that do counter them
Other than ramming
winter sonnet
actually
stacked shields are INCREDIBLY effective against rails
2x18 rails in my modded setup are firing at each other rn... theyve been at it for 1 minute straight
thats just 4 shields stacked in that setup btw... u can stack even more in different ways
though tbh im open to any change that allows railguns to be longer as opposed to these weird 8 acc boxes
short compass
shouldnt it be linear though to prevent bias to short rails?
Imo could be any of these. Adding steps to incentivise longer rails. But their progression is still not as drastic as the original suggestion, displayed as the dotted line.
past dagger
last time i suggested aoe rails everyone called me crazy :(
past dagger
though tbh im open to any change that allows railguns to be longer as opposed to...
even the boxes don't exist that much in competitive anymore lol
winter sonnet
Imo could be any of these. Adding steps to incentivise longer rails. But their p...
hmmm i think to make it more apparent one needs to show the dps growth /cost of multiple 8 acc rails aswell
short compass
hmmm i think to make it more apparent one needs to show the dps growth /cost of ...
This is with cost in mind. None of these combinations exceed the cost of a 37module rail (The max we can get in the build limit.) As you can see spamming basic rails is still the most cost efficient method. The 8 rail cost efficiency levels out at 8, but when it is compared to the progression of the other rails with cost in mind it becomes more apparent that it is somewhat balanced.
You can also see that the additional step boosts I suggested can catch up to the 8 rail combinations.
Also, to correct a previous note. Penetration does not increase damage. I was wrong on that one, so boosting damage might be a way to go, indeed.
here's the same graph without the no modules option
and here's dps to cost efficiency, where nothing new happened.
