#Changing the speed meta?

1170 messages · Page 2 of 2 (latest)

royal bronze
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i mean, the 1 reason most armour bricks aren't flipped by tb fans is that they have a lot of weight, but then you go and reduce their weight and suddenly, they are far easier to just flip

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sure they have barely a bit more turn power, but tb's can very esily over power that as their budget is more focused in armour

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which will still slow them down more than the railfan

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which will also have more turn power

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on top of their already great turn power

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The outcome would be less Roof cannon bricks, and even less missile barges

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TB Railfans clearly aren't light ships, with certain exceptions, and certainly aren't heavy ships, with certain exceptions, but rather take on a medium role, except you forget a pivotal fact, rails already beat down on low armoured ships because of their high concentrated piecing damage, and their tbs flip them even easier

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And since medium counters heavy, the Railfans flip all heavy ships with their weight NERF, and kill them probably easier than a ul

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Since they are limited to t moving

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What would you do in this situation, how would you fight a tb railfan with your less heavy box of armour that is outranged

final ridge
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but its out of proportion. the game has atm in this moment 3236 players and had an all time peak of 13794.

pvp always has less players then singple plyer, but atm the Pvp comunity is about 20 to 30 active player. more 20 then 30.
Thats 0.1% of active players. thats FAAAR to little for normal standards.
And the fact that you quite oftne see new names join Pvpo lobbys whicxh you then never see again shows that people are interested in PvP, but didnt liked how it was played. also i see far more new players in dominion lobbys who dont have the problems that elemination has as speed meta and ramming abuse doesnt apply to lower priced ships as of how the upscalling of weight and thrust works (and with that its scaling with money)

I eman its very obvious the PvP has a problem, otherwise it wouldnt be less then 0.05% of all players playing the PvP (keep in mind 3k player atm, but probably much less elemination player in this moment. normaly a max of 1 8 player lobby at a time)
The fact that Elemination cant grow, that people come to try it out and then never come again shows people dislike it. a problem is there.
And I make suggestions of how to fix this problem while noone of you guys does any suggestions. all you onyl do is say "I dont want that, dont do it. its bad. nono" but you dont make ANY suggestions of your own. if you dont like my idears make some suggestions of your own. but changing nothing will mean elemination will become a dead mode that noone plays, as it already has no player,s no player growth and as some people then will leave at some time noone new will come to replace them.

stuff like this happened quite often to other games as well.

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and with that all is said. the fact noone recommends/ suggest anything to change the obvious problem shown by player numbers isnt good. i tried to have a discussion with you guys, suggesting changes. but the discussi9on sint usfull, bcs noone says what specific they like or dislike, noone does make any suggestions other then me and coolgamer. it seems most of you just want everything to stay as it is. that can be a way, but by the current trend and numbers its a way that means you wont have an active community and to deal with the consequences of that

royal bronze
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Some as I have seen and have been told about this, want to build ships based on looks rather than optimisation

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Which is an automatic no PvP zone

royal bronze
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I mean, you can make your cannon box less heavy but it won't stop it from getting railfanned and 1 shot

fossil meadow
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if you think you cant have both, I think your just flatout wrong.

royal bronze
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Almost all of the new players bar a few just do career mode

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What cosmoteer right now needs, is stability, not a radical change every month because the 0.001% think it needs a massive game changing change that shakes the game

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Also, it isn't losing players rather than gaining more

fossil meadow
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You argue for the side that has been perfectly silent the whole time, if you cant get traction... just give it up.

royal bronze
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Instead of just giving them side thrust to turn better, he asks for free side thrust

fossil meadow
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also, are you oblivious to spinners?

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those are highly effective heavy ships

royal bronze
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Imagine a turn buff to spinners

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They will spin even faster

fossil meadow
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what can you do vs that, Its unstoppable

royal bronze
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Razor blades

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He also wants no ramming, making all ions useless against spinners, and most wall weapons also useless against spinners, only rails would do much to them

fossil meadow
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and what counters rails again...?

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oh right!

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RAMMERS!

royal bronze
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At least ions can ram their targets, we call them ion rammers for a reason, don't nerf our ions like that

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As said, an entirely unkillable ship would be a tb Railfans, you can't ram it, tbs stop avoiders and walls, and if his speed meta change happens his armour boxes become too underweight to resist tbs

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Just 1 shot all ships with a Tb Railfan,

fossil meadow
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spinners become your only option

royal bronze
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Which die to railfans

fossil meadow
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and those will be RoD'd

royal bronze
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The rod aswell

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As I've stated before, this speed meta proposal is half thought out, and no,
This isn't a request for another " example '' where it is just numbers that do not actually translate to the game itself

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What Cosmoteer actually needs, is all thrust to become 8x as powerful, so that your " proton" ships t move for 2 seconds and have ships ram into eachother to form a miniature blackhole

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That is balance

fossil meadow
royal bronze
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A joke indeed

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Because balance is a concept, we think it exists but it never has existed anywhere before

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Also, I wouldn't want to see all tournaments decided by how heavy the ship is in 3 categories where 70% of the tournament is ship switching until the timer runs out and the unlucky player on the ship rng ends up having 0 chance of winning

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The viewers certainly wouldn't just want to sit there knowing exactly the outcome of the match, they can just wait a few hours until the results are announced and watch as all the non winners blame rng

final ridge
# fossil meadow you fail to realise the game is only out a month, you cant expect a metropolis o...

this is the peak time to see growth in the PvP comunity as competetive players willg et into the game to try it out. the longer a game is out the less active it normaly becomes and only good replayability content like multiplayer cna normaly sustain a playerbase over a long period of time. but this isnt happening atm as the numbers show. as said: 20-30 palyers play Elemination from around 10k players (probabyl moreif we account for timezones and active/ less active).
the nubmers show ther eis a problem.
the fact people new join eleminaiton games to then never come again cbs they seemingly disliked it shows a problem.
saying people dont like competetive is just the typical delusional "they all to abd" argument which just isnt true. 90% or mroe of a playerbase normaly dont paly Pvp, but much more then 0,05%

for example:
Age of empire 2 DE has around 20k players at a same time online. menas much more active palyers cbs not all can be online at the same time but we also onyl compared the active number for cosmoteer so lets say 20k (keep in midn that also counts offline players ofc as wel as people who just paly unranked games or lobby games with friends or co op)
and wel seems the gmae has much more active players then the current 20k bcs the active leaderboard (active means has played a ranked game within the last month) has a total of 41239 active players as of this moment.

ofc cosmoteer will have less Pvp then an active game like aoe2. but just to comapre the numbers: cosmoter ahs righ now about 4k players at once with 20 people playing elemiantion. aoe2 has 20k active right (actve means online in this moment) and 49k registered active Pvp players that even paly ranked.

cosmoteers PvP is a dead fish in the water. and by the amount of players i saw join elemiantion lobbys just to try it out i assume if just half of them would have stayed the playerbase would have 5 timed by now or even more.

final ridge
fossil meadow
royal bronze
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He did the funny thing, he posted a paragraph essay on his entire opinion on a subject that he only half knows will happen because the other outcome is entirely the opposite and 80% more likely

royal bronze
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And a ram causing 3+ layers of armour loss = death

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Also, tbs

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Tbs = no ramming

final ridge
# fossil meadow You argue for the side that has been perfectly silent the whole time, if you can...

in this post right now the same 3-5 people are speaking. so ofc 4 vs 1. doesnt show anything about what the community wants. the survey I amde with around 100 people that saw it had shown however that most people dont want fgast action gameplay and instead more focus and variation in ship building. (ofc the survey was in general, not focused on PvP, but all gameplay., but we need to convert PvE players into PvP anyways so its important to know what people in generel want)

royal bronze
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And you cannot even outweigh to resist because of the weight NERF you want

fossil meadow
final ridge
royal bronze
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Players cannot have their intentions assumed, of they aren't actively stating that they want change they are abstaining

royal bronze
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You vastly underestimate armour

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Showing your lack of knowledge

final ridge
# fossil meadow It's called democracy, get used to it if you would

the chinese type? in which 5 people argue and the other 13k people have to apply to what ever these 5 people "decided"
sry but this isnt democracy. my survey ahs for more people that participated, still to little for real democracy, but it shoiws that more people dislike what you say is "perfectly baalnced " atm and would like els action focus and more ship building focus

royal bronze
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Then why go by what 1 player decides ( Being just you ) instead of the 5 against you, it is far more democratic than a dictatorship

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Why not just suddenly decide that missiles now have 70000 range

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And since you have to be the one to say yes and you say yes we all have to deal with that

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You are exceedingly arrogant

final ridge
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but W/E. this discussion isnt usfull anymore as you guy dont wanna argue. you dont propose any alternatives or use any arguments to say why my propsed thigns are abd. you just say you dislike it or say "you said this and that which si abd" when i never even said these things.
at least this were the only real responses as it seems by what you say you dont eant anything to change at all and are adamant about everythign staying as it is, even if the numbers show this will repulse new players and by that handicap the PvP playerbase from growing.

The game will still be a financial succes as people buy it to paly single player and stop playing it once they finihed PvE. I just think its sad bcs the game has potential to be a good PvP game as well.

as this discussion is usless by now i see no reason to waste more time

I think I said the most important thing to end it right there:
#1041191879376642048 message

If you wanna look away from the obvious problem that i discribed there shown by numbers in playerbase (and numbers are neutral, they have no opinion) then be it. hf guys

(and btw i saw oftne the argument that the playerbase of today isnt relevant for the future. it has been proven multiply times by now tho that games can rarly recover if something was wrong at release as most palyers try it out then and wont comeback if something wasnt to their likeing. the most famous example of this is No Mans Sky, but also Age of Empire 4 struggles now bcs by release the PvP experience wasnt as refined as people expected by release. they fixed all problems by now but both games could never recover and never reach the same amount of players again)

royal bronze
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Ah yes, entirely dictate the state the game will be in by next year, off of it's first month in the public eye

final ridge
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I rly hoped you would propose alternatives that you would like more so we can find compromisesses to make all palyers happy, but seems its not the goal to make al players happy and instead just want it one sided, which sadly wont be positive for the game)

royal bronze
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Might as well say how all games are decided that way

fossil meadow
royal bronze
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Oh no, the new call of duty game only has 60 PvP games, not 70, it is doomed guys

royal bronze
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If your sole argument against us is that we are just not liking what you propose, and you don't actually look at what we've said, then your arguments are entirely flawed and will always be that way

empty marsh
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The large majority of people who answered that they dislike the speed meta are those that lack a critical understanding of why it is better than the alternative

royal bronze
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I'd even wager a bet, betting the entire 34 floor tower I own , that Cosmoteer would entirely lose all the PvP community if your changes happened,

I'll go by past data
In Cosmoteer classic, it had a decent amount of multiplayer at the start, a few lobbies and such, maybe 1-2 PvP games, and after a few years as the community matured and developed, forming into a player base, more PvP games occured as there were more players to sustain it.
Eventually a baseline meta was formed, and one day after enough losing to faster ships, players decided to make their ships in turn faster, untill even more players made their ships faster.
From then on it is speed meta
It wasn't just a sudden " this is what it is ", it is built on older, slower ships, more features are added and eventually you have Cosmoteer where players stop playing as much elimination because all the ships at the time were basically the exact same thing, in modern what we have now, we have a far grander Playerbase, and we will have the same thing as before,
Majority in Singleplayer, to many pvp players, until it then slowly dies off if nothing new is added at that point, which Walt intends on adding to Cosmoteer in many layers, meaning we will have a far more delayed death date, and either way all games eventually die off, it is a natural cycle

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If we instead took an axe at the PvP system, and made it basically 1 ship or you lose, it will die off rapidly

steep junco
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Whilst i enjoy the idea of the speed meta being nerfed a bit (cus lets be real the rule “you can’t beat speed without speed” applies here really hard) there is one thing i’d change and that is add a +1 or whatever to the equation so there’s a base drag, meaning the ship can come to a standstill more easily cus drag at sub-80 m/s would have a much shallower curve

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It would probably also buff the preexisting combat ships cus the larger-end ones are slow

royal bronze
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Speed meta isn't as much of a rule as it is a general rule of thumb, it is just called speed meta because the majority of archetypes work because of their speed

steep junco
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I know

royal bronze
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Spinners for example, a meta that has low speed

steep junco
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I’ve been around for 4 years by now

steep junco
royal bronze
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You'd probably not read all of the long paragraphs of basically nothing that lead to it

steep junco
royal bronze
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In summary, his nerf to the speed meta is a reduction of armour weight, and thrust power,

steep junco
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I’m a total noob on the elim-front might i note, hence i lack a lot of vision

steep junco
empty marsh
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How so

steep junco
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seems

empty marsh
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Lighter armor = armor ships being good

steep junco
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I may be misunderstanding

royal bronze
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Also, not to forget his nerf to ramming being that anything that rams takes enough damage they lose 3 layers of armour

empty marsh
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Less thrust = fast ships like orbiters etc nerfed more than others

royal bronze
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Basically, Railfans become unkillable in turn

steep junco
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Pretty sure we can unanimously agree on that

empty marsh
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Uhh. Why not

royal bronze
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Railfans are weak to ramming and are generally heavy, and ramming is their biggest counter

empty marsh
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Also off topic

royal bronze
empty marsh
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Probably melee will have ram damage resist that is very high

steep junco
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Well duh

royal bronze
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He never said any damage values for ramming doing self damage, only that it breaks off 3 layers of armour

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Or the equivalent if it is a turret

empty marsh
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Seems like a very weird way to handle it

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U sure he didnt mean that it has enough dmg and aoe to do that?

steep junco
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What is implied by “breaking off 3 layers of armor” though

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If it’s on one spot that basically does fuck-all

empty marsh
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I mean

royal bronze
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On all of the ship I assume

steep junco
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If it’s everywhere the ship contacts within a given timeframe that’s busted

empty marsh
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I think he is just spitballing still

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Hopefully we get an in depth ramming physics system and not something janky tho

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Rather nothing than a half assed one

steep junco
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I will note the following final findings:
The speed as-is is as balanced as it can be, and should be left unchanged ideally. At absolute most a hard-cap is to be added much like what was featured in the tournament-rebalance-mod for the final cosmoteer-classic tournament

royal bronze
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If we do get ramming,it shouldn't deal major damage, only something like 2000 damage on average

steep junco
royal bronze
steep junco
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Which adds up to not a lot, which is what it should be

steep junco
royal bronze
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It took 30% of the thrust to move the same weighing ship 110 m/s, when 100% of the thrust is 145 m/s

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It is a lot of cost to get that extra 35 m/s

steep junco
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In other words the speed/TTWR curve is a root-function

royal bronze
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It's easier to get a ship from 50 m/s to 100 m/s, than it is to make 100 m/s into 150 m/s

steep junco
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Mhm

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As i said it’s a root function

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Y=(squareroot(x))

royal bronze
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It is as close to balance that we can get to

steep junco
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And you need exponentially more X to get Y to go up by 1

steep junco
royal bronze
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We will still probably get a new thruster variant in the future

steep junco
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Mayhaps

royal bronze
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Saw something about modular thrusters

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On the roadmap

steep junco
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Perhaps finally an RCS-style thruster

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Modular-thrust would be interesting

royal bronze
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Like railguns, but thrust

steep junco
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Pulling some inspiration from FTD that could become a good way to beef up the juice at a fair cost and brain-usage

royal bronze
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We will finally see 2 thruster ships that move 100 m/s

steep junco
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finally my rp-capitals can look appropriate

royal bronze
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As an elimination player

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I see it entirely as a way to just have a box of armour around the thrust

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And have everything else around it

steep junco
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Yea i can easily see that happening too

royal bronze
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Easier to defend than a large line

steep junco
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Which, mind you, severs your logistics in two

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Anyway i think the conclusion is final, speed as is right now should be left where it’s at

grave copper
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just use emp

vale echo
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Co op is usually played with friends so obviously the number of games would be alot higher

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The meta clearly isnt the issue here for why there is super low amount of pvp players

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The current status quo is fine and i rather have walt work on implementing a simple matchmaker first and more multiplayer content than worry about balancing now

royal bronze
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the best matchmaker we have is #multiplayer-lfg

vale echo
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We really need an in game matchmaker that doesnt involve scrolling through a list

royal bronze
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perhaps something that would put players in a random lobby

vale echo
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And im sure alot of players doesnt know #multiplayer-lfg exist

royal bronze
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maybe

vale echo
quartz goblet
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i think having entire stations dedicated to certain gamemodes would be best

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and outside of the dedicated ones everything else is whatever

grim forge
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I know im late to the party but another fix could be a limit to the energy a ship can pack. So its heavy beam / railgun fire or many thrusters. Since Energy is so easy to get and limetless storable its easy to build ships that need tos of energy. Some of the mentioned Tank bricks can work with 1/5 or even lesser Energy supply so if the amount of generators is limitet or even there is only one generator and the rest has to be done via crew management would make these super fast super long range super high dmg ships not as viable.

So add some kind of limitation outside the space alone that lets the people need to be creative

vale echo
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they are expensive in terms of price already

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maybe give it a CR cost as a limiting factor