rule on lootrunning mods

[vast blaze]

banning it is unfair to the mod, banning sharing makes it a bm

[crystal canyon]

unfair to the mod?

[humble fulcrum]

unfair to the mod is like

the mod is not a person

and i dont think flowey cares

[vast blaze]

mb thats wrong in a way, the mod is there to track chests in a casual use instead of remembering, but people are using it like esp

[humble fulcrum]

then ban config sharing lol

[vast blaze]

black market

[solid oracle]

the vote's already done

[vast blaze]

fire whats the results

[humble fulcrum]

let them share it its not like you can detect ghost bidding easily as well but its still disallowed

[solid oracle]

27-2 just like the image said, no?

[humble fulcrum]

thats not a final vote

its a developer opinion poll

[paper tide]

dawg stop with these bad faith arguments 😭

[humble fulcrum]

the moderators and developers perspectives are different

[vast blaze]

alright you're making us look bad 🐈

[humble fulcrum]

and devs tend to think more in an idealistic way compared to moderators as well

[vast blaze]

but the issue "flowey helps remembering" people waypoint every chest becoming "esp"

what is the line drawn by whats esp and whats not

[jade onyx]

this is not a "quotation mark esp quotation mark" you can see the chests through walls

[humble fulcrum]

imo it should be esp if it can only be done by an external mod

[jade onyx]

the only difference being that you need to download a file for one and that you need to download a file for another, oh wait

[paper tide]

imo statistical analysis of player chest activity would work quite well (as a basis for mods to observe). also chest ESP is blatantly obvious in players unfamiliar with the chest locations or pathing already

[humble fulcrum]

downloading configs can only be done with a mod

remembering doesnt need it

[solid oracle]

if remembering is just the same as flowey mod, then you shouldn't need it. no?

[vast blaze]

why doesn't flowey try and find a way to stop being able to downloads files and imprinting it onto waypoints?

[humble fulcrum]

it is the same as flowey mod only if you make the config

[humble fulcrum]

that is against the spirit of foss

[vast blaze]

whats foss?

[paper tide]

"the spirit of Foss" is not a moral authority brah

[jade onyx]

because that's a stupid reason to block waypoints + doesn't prevent someone from downloading a similar mod

[humble fulcrum]

free and open source software

[humble fulcrum]

flowey doesnt want to

because of it

so like

thats the reason

[shy horizon]

what kind of chest activity would work though

[humble fulcrum]

at least the possible inplementations hes against

[ember grove]

perhaps, but whether or not something happens to the mod is not up to you

[jade onyx]

when you open a very secret chest that no one finds and this is your second time doing the dungeon and you haven't found it before, or something

[shy horizon]

i can show you my pink instance and every single chest in summer was broken through walls as they are all 1 block thick

[jade onyx]

okay cool self report I guess

[vast blaze]

why cant i just remember everything instead of using mods

[shy horizon]

are you able to get to any conclusion by that

[jade onyx]

mildly

[paper tide]

yeah, that youre an outlier and mods should spectate you

[shy horizon]

this is basic tier bait tjoguy

though

[jade onyx]

especially if you don't break walls ever and then one week you suddenly start breaking walls to get to chests yeah kind of

[paper tide]

I'm not proposing a method for this analysis

[shy horizon]

but i just know, what can they say

[paper tide]

I'm just saying it's likely possible for some method to exist

[paper tide]

can we please put our thinking caps on for a second

[shy horizon]

i do know mods spectate players they suspect

[vast blaze]

just a question, do the devs not like the green box or do they not like chests being marked down

[jade onyx]

i. both? aren't those the same thing?

[timber hinge]

both, i think

[vast blaze]

like could i make a map of a dungeon listing all the chests on the dungeon without devs getting upset?

[jade onyx]

they don't like the content being reduced to lootrunner's point and click adventure(tm)

[humble fulcrum]

they are functionality the same and should be treated as such

[paper tide]

waypoint and green box are functionally the same, nobody is making a distinction between those

[shy horizon]

once got questioned when i was on an alt and rushing white to finish quest prerequisites so i can watch lore

[humble fulcrum]

yeah if u dont download the map

its done for tov and its also pinned

[leaden bridge]

There's a degree of effort getting to the chest by translating coordinates yeah

[vast blaze]

so im curious waypointing, is it a ingame playing issue or a fully stop trying to find chest issue

[shy horizon]

you couldve xaero'd all chests so i think devs just not happy with the magnitude in this case

[humble fulcrum]

u either ban all kinds of waypoints marking the chest or you dont

[shy horizon]

knowing few location of objective is fine but knowing 150 chests isnt

i guess

[vast blaze]

what im saying is that is recording down chest locations the same as waypointing chests

[humble fulcrum]

yeah so u ban it or you dont

[timber hinge]

just dont fill half your screen with green boxes

[leaden bridge]

Lets ban Xaeros all together Straight Up

[solid oracle]

I think the biggest difference between waypoints vs floweymod is that one is way more streamlined. I can guarantee you that 95% of flowermod users were not waypointing individual chests before floweymod was available
I also think if you ban the chest highlighting, that a non-insignificant amount of people who drop the mod aren't going to immediately rush to waypoint everything

[leaden bridge]

[shy horizon]

id say seeing the coord and seeing the chest isnt same

[humble fulcrum]

but the highlighting is purely a visual thing

[paper tide]

I'm ngl it feels like the biggest issue is really just that screenshots and videos of mods such as this being posted in monucord do not align at all with TM's vision for the game, but pinpointing the actual harm is a bit more complicated. people for their own enjoyment probably shouldn't be playing like this; a lot of people from outside MM are less likely to play if they see what looks like blatant chest ESP. really if you just banned public sharing of this stuff in monucord that would probably address most of the concerns

[solid oracle]

You're missing the point entirely

[jade onyx]

that's completely unrelated lmao

[humble fulcrum]

yes i know the visual makes the difference

[jade onyx]

no??

[shy horizon]

but on the other hand i probably would be unhappy if the waypointing is completely killed as i and guild friend recorded it on ourselves and thats somewhat effort

[humble fulcrum]

or the waypointing itself i guess

but u can convert it easily

[vast blaze]

like whats the issue, knowing chest locations without memorizing it or putting ingame pointers on where there at

[humble fulcrum]

with existing files

[timber hinge]

you should have already memorised it by then

[jade onyx]

both are not great but the first is worse imo

[humble fulcrum]

and also is it disallowed if i print to stdout instead of marking it lol

[paper tide]

don't be obtuse 😭

[vast blaze]

so if waypointers get banned, what other options do lr have

like is there a worse outcome

[paper tide]

??

[shy horizon]

yea but we know the location and we planned routes with fma ingame

[humble fulcrum]

its a moderation thing i think the rules should be very clear

[jade onyx]

what

[crisp pivot]

memory

[leaden bridge]

REMEMBER THE CHEST BRAH

[timber hinge]

are you using the disallowed version

[vast blaze]

alright i said that wrong 🐈 give me a second

[humble fulcrum]

its not disallowed

[clever hedge]

they are not supporting lootrun just allowing it

[shy horizon]

no im on 1.8
chests dont disappear upon break

[humble fulcrum]

well theres no official modrator stance

[solid oracle]

It's just semantics at this point
If 30 devs are voting against it, I'd wager it's a done deal

[humble fulcrum]

any mods correct me if im wrong but

there isnt really an announcement or anything

[timber hinge]

then theres no difference

[vast blaze]

they dont support it i know, but is there something worse than waypointing that isn't chest esp?

[humble fulcrum]

and thats because they want it to be that way

whether it can be done is different

[timber hinge]

that one is straight esp because you know the block state when someone breaks it out of your view

[solid oracle]

sure people are inevitably going to slip through the cracks but it suddenly becomes much harder to be a social member of the community if sharing screenshots with your ESP-d chests puts you at risk of being banned

[paper tide]

if people have to risk getting banned for sharing waypoint files they'll probably do it less

[humble fulcrum]

no but im arguing whats the line

[paper tide]

on the other hand maybe they'll just move to full chest esp

lmfao

[solid oracle]

It's pretty obvious what the line is

[humble fulcrum]

what is it

[solid oracle]

floweymod esp

[shy horizon]

i do agree with this

[paper tide]

so I don't actually know what banning them would do

[humble fulcrum]

is it banning all types of waypointing chests

[paper tide]

yeah but people would just use ESP then instead 😭

[humble fulcrum]

i agree but there isnt really an official stance regarding this

[paper tide]

or just not delete existing waypoints

[humble fulcrum]

@ember grove correct me if im wrong tho

but i wouldnt use it

but still i wouldnt say its banned

[paper tide]

again there's no real anti cheat for this

[timber hinge]

no reason to continue using chest waypoint then if you know the location already

[vast blaze]

would banning chest waypointing cause more issues then actually fixes?

[solid oracle]

frankly i'd rather people have to resort to a shittier version of floweyesp by waypointing everything than let people continue to use faux-ESP

[humble fulcrum]

esp can be caught and

like paks said previously a lot of bans are by chestesp

i think he said like 80%?

[paper tide]

that doesn't say literally anything about the effectiveness of the moderators

[humble fulcrum]

true but there isnt a way to know either

[paper tide]

i mean you could with better analysis imo but that's high effort

[humble fulcrum]

imo yes

[shy horizon]

i mainly use it to record stuff and routing now

[solid oracle]

there's no easy way to probe game clients for modifications because minecraft has a server-side anti cheat iirc

[shy horizon]

like when fathoms reach came out

[paper tide]

I'm talking about statistical analysis

[shy horizon]

i did record some chests with it

[paper tide]

but almost certainly infeasible

[vast blaze]

im mostly getting ignored

[stark stag]

[humble fulcrum]

i mean this sound like a fun challenge

[paper tide]

so there's no real way to moderate chest ESP effectively

[paper tide]

sure if someone wants to do it

[solid oracle]

/gamemode spectator is the best tool you've got iirc

[stark stag]

Trap chests ahh

[vast blaze]

honeypots

[paper tide]

okay no one is reading what I'm saying

[timber hinge]

how do you do statistical analysis

[humble fulcrum]

its also pretty obvious to catch honeypots

[vast blaze]

have you seen a honey pot?>

[shy horizon]

we will miss pine 🥀

[timber hinge]

yes

[paper tide]

nope stick mentioned

[humble fulcrum]

no but u can just use the old flowey mod

problem solved

[leaden bridge]

Are you... ENCOURAGING CHEATS??!?!?!!?!!?

[humble fulcrum]

also is route recording allowed

[leaden bridge]

Aaaand you're permabanned and wiped

[timber hinge]

nope stick is real though because there are gravel hinting something behind

[vast blaze]

ban waypointing encourage chest esp 🔥

[humble fulcrum]

whats this

[stark stag]

🔥

[timber hinge]

yellow hellshire branch

[paper tide]

you're gonna get muted for this

delete

[vast blaze]

[humble fulcrum]

wtf is a nope stick

[vast blaze]

huh?

[crisp pivot]

stick renamed to nope

[humble fulcrum]

oh

wait yeah that one

i remember someone mainhanding that

[paper tide]

also the flat wool

best item

[vast blaze]

@ember grove will there be any changes with mods in the next balance change?

[paper tide]

dawg just wait and see

[stark stag]

It’s over gonna use fma secretly

[vast blaze]

whats with the skull

[vast blaze]

[humble fulcrum]

bro balance change and moderation change is

[paper tide]

🧐

[humble fulcrum]

unrelated

[stark stag]

Literally catch me fma if you can

[timber hinge]

can we get a moderator view on this

[stark stag]

ahh

[vast blaze]

i know but people will join back to see the reworks so wouldn't be a good time to change

[paper tide]

cheat implementation details don't matter in the context of moderation

[vast blaze]

[humble fulcrum]

is it legal if i make an external tool that communicates between two clients

[vast blaze]

vc is banned!

[humble fulcrum]

and is it any different from communicating in vc with chest numbers that automatically go down if you input the chest number

[shy horizon]

we dont need a moderator view thats just unfair advantage

its clear

[paper tide]

feels like there's a fundamental misunderstanding that something is a cheat based on the literal code implementing it

[timber hinge]

and there are some people still use it

[leaden bridge]

Yeah any communication is banned and Big TM hitsquad will break down your door

[paper tide]

which in reality has no real bearing on whether it's allowed or not

[humble fulcrum]

this is true

ty for pointing that out

[paper tide]

I'm talking about you

[humble fulcrum]

yeah

i know

[paper tide]

😭 okay :)

glad

[leaden bridge]

Master rage bait?

[humble fulcrum]

no i just realized that i was coming from a perspective

[crystal canyon]

the version that auto unmarks chests if they are broken qualifies as ESP iirc

[humble fulcrum]

that isnt really true

[humble fulcrum]

ok whatever

i think everyone can agree that should be banned

so thats out of the question

[paper tide]

I used the same argument as you when I was tryna fight for EEC automatic route shower / chest way pointer mod being allowed

[stark stag]

Who’s still using that version even

[paper tide]

like using raycasting instead of reading block room data

[paper tide]

it doesn't exist

I was gonna make one

[stark stag]

[humble fulcrum]

wdym

[paper tide]

but this obviously was just an implementation detail and didn't matter

[shy horizon]

this sounds skyblock as fuck lmao

[paper tide]

yeah that's why mods said no

ruins ec

[humble fulcrum]

true

[vast blaze]

is bot lr bannable

[humble fulcrum]

....

[paper tide]

....

[zinc igloo]

3200 messages and its just all been going in circles for the past 2500 of them

[humble fulcrum]

is that a serious question

[timber hinge]

macroing

[humble fulcrum]

"is macroing bannable"

[leaden bridge]

No I have a secret army of monumenta robots and they've successfully taken over Galengarde

[paper tide]

lwk yeah

[humble fulcrum]

so thats where all the acon members were coming from

[timber hinge]

didnt read the previous 3k messages unfortunately

[humble fulcrum]

they were all cocopad alts

[leaden bridge]

[vast blaze]

what do you expect this is a gray zone

[crisp pivot]

3200 messages and about 200 of them are worth reading

[zinc igloo]

we like already said everything that could of been said when the thread started I just see repetition

[humble fulcrum]

someone make a summary

[fervent thunder]

put the chat history in chatgpt

[vast blaze]

3rd party thinker here

[leaden bridge]

I don't want my voice to become part of the billions Mr. GPT has

Please...

[zinc igloo]

the summery is really just that, people would rather just ban waypoints then ban sharing waypoints, since banning sharing solves nothing.

[ember grove]

whar give me a second i wasnt reading

ok just read it

[humble fulcrum]

but i think the main discusison here is
how would someone make a rule that prevents "chest esp" (theres a problem of xaeros vs flowey mod and memorizing and communicating etc)

[zinc igloo]

and that it makes more sense to just address loot running itself, rather then do band aid fixes / damage control

[ember grove]

i assume it is not allowed given that i think it was a request from the team to disable the feature? but idk

this might be misinformation

[humble fulcrum]

misinformation from mods

🥀

[vast blaze]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1074422080566734848/1419393971679133807/caption-28.gif

[humble fulcrum]

banning discussion of sharing lootrooms did something

[zinc igloo]

I did not even know it was unallowed, so I feel like it did not really do much

[vast blaze]

how to fix, make devs enjoy waypoint lr and boom

[leaden bridge]

Or it was so effective that it never crossed your mind

[humble fulcrum]

^

[zinc igloo]

I mean if you were asking me why its not allowed, my guess would of just been to make screenshots not boring

[humble fulcrum]

banning public discussion solves one problem that is discussed in the list of problems at least

[zinc igloo]

acutally you know what, we can ban it for the sole reason that its lame to see green boxes through walls, why not it doesn't have to be a ideological thing

[humble fulcrum]

i dont think anyone is against it tho

[ember grove]

what about purple boxes 🥺

[vast blaze]

turn green boxes into cat emoji's

[zinc igloo]

purple box gets a pass

[clever hedge]

hater of 00ff00

[ember grove]

i do indeed hate 00ff00 ugly ass colour hurts my eyes

use like umm uhh

i forgot what it was

[crisp pivot]

ban waypoints because they're cringe 👍

[ember grove]

edc8ff

[soft python]

SR Autoattuner... the 2021 players would sell their soul for that

[ember grove]

nice colour 👍

[dreamy hill]

Just make it log the location they opened in chat and then the green square disappears

[vast blaze]

chat hang on idea

instead of box make it a triangle

problem solved

[dreamy hill]

No client interactions and boom you have the best group lootrun mod out there

[vast blaze]

i hate that this is a thing

https://tenor.com/view/cat-creepy-car-commercial-car-commercial-creepy-jump-scare-gif-14630404356031300471

[dreamy hill]

I feel like you aren’t even contributing to the conversation anymore

Are you good bro

[vast blaze]

im not

[timber hinge]

counts as macro maybe

sending 80+ messages in 8 minutes for duo dungeons

[ember grove]

days can confirm that this would be considered automating player action

already talked with her about something like this

chat macros are allowed but you need to press a button specifically to send it in chat (example: meow macro, or aristotle's welcome to sierhaven macro)

[jovial zealot]

TIL ari has a welcome to sierhaven macro

i thought he typed it out every time

[ember grove]

nah he wrong macroed at least once

[lament blaze]

i type all my meows manually

hmpf

[dreamy hill]

Chat macros that send coords are allowed or no

[lament blaze]

<coords>

[dreamy hill]

Also is then communicating between clients automatically is not allowed?

[ember grove]

erm that's a little more questionable because then how does one moderate talking in a vc

[dreamy hill]

Chat macros that send <coords> if that’s allowed then you can just pull the closest chest from the player coordinates and then mark it as opened

[ember grove]

i guess if you want to go through the effort to find a chest, stand on it, macro <coords> and leave that is probably fine because no part of that is illegal

[dreamy hill]

Not stand on it

Just be nearby it

[ember grove]

err what benefit does that provide

[dreamy hill]

Then the mod automatically marks it as opened for all clients using it

So you know not to go there

It’s a hypothetical group lootrunning mod

[jovial zealot]

Welcome ashphyx to the server!
[ABA] CS_Aristotle: Congratulations! What was your favourite dungeon?

[ember grove]

nah i don't think he macros those

it would be like

[hard finch]

Welcome, gg etc

[dreamy hill]

So this is allowed ?

[ember grove]

Johnumenta purchased [Sliver of Perfection] from Knight-Errant Reynart!
[ABA] CS_Aristotle: Welcome to Sierhaven!

[ember grove]

i dunno this is a grey area

might need to poll on it

[dreamy hill]

If it’s not allowed what’s the rule going to be. No mods that mark chests as opened I guess

[vast blaze]

why stop at mods? stop trying to record chest locations altogether

the issue is that we want chest locations to find loot in

[dreamy hill]

I’m leaving

[vast blaze]

somehow someone is going to make a worse version of waypointing

watch someone record every single chest location on a map

[ember grove]

if it were rejected it would be on the basis of direct client communication which is kind of iffy imo but again it would be a policy vote

[clever hedge]

Someone is just gonna make a chat mod that doesn’t gets moderated or something

[lament blaze]

how about we don't turn monumenta into hsb

or wynncraft

[warped dome]

this mod would be worse than waypoint esp, at least waypoint behavior is achievable with basic memorization. You arent realistically remembering dozens of coords all at once to avoid from chat messages
Theres other human ways to avoid overlapping paths but thats not what the behavior of a group chest marker mod would be helpful for

but tbh other things are essentially cheating and still acceptable (using wiki to cheat puzzles) so shrug

[stark stag]

Waypoint esp 🥀

[fossil grove]

But you yourself conceded that banning this feature doesn’t solve lootrunning right? By your own claims you simply want to not see it for the sake of your sanity, until a real solution can be implemented (paraphrasing your words)

Like if the standard for this is “I want to implement what is necessary to sufficiently convince myself that this isn’t happening (regardless of whether or not it is happening),” I think that’s a bit questionable

[stark stag]

😔

[crystal canyon]

I've never said I'm trying to solve lootrunning

this isn't about lootrunning

Its about using those mods specifically

#430161843428786177 message

[fossil grove]

.

I can only assume you mean that “not seeing this” improves your sanity

[crystal canyon]

Yes, down the thread frozen sent about shallow motivation, I'm referring to wanting the mod usage (and thus any media containing it) gone

[fossil grove]

Also you literally say “seeing […] destroys your motivation to develop”

So like

[crystal canyon]

Its not not a factor

but it isn't the only one

[fossil grove]

Sure, but lootrunning still happens, yes?

[crystal canyon]

Yes..?

[fossil grove]

Do you think by banning the mod anyone is going to stop lootrunning?

[crystal canyon]

No..?

[fossil grove]

Okay so how can you justify that the mods mere existence is what reduces your motivation rather than the consequences

[crystal canyon]

Have you read through my proposal in team poll

I outlined some issues there

Not named in them are:
Visually it looks sickening to see gameplay (including lootrunning) reduced to that degree
its not something we should be showcasing as monumenta gameplay

I've lived with lootrunning for years

it is disheartening but this is a step further

At least with "regular" lootrunning I could respect the time and effort put into optimizing and learning routes, Like portal runs

[fossil grove]

Like “mod exists => I see green squares => this makes me sad and not want to dev” is a reasonable inference

“I think the mod makes the barrier to entry for lootrunning too low” is I guess a valid reason, but I don’t actually believe this claim

[fossil grove]

But if you directly say “this mod existing makes me feel demotivated” is illogical without a good intermediate step

[crystal canyon]

I believe in my first internal post I said seeing these mods in action / in footage

[vast blaze]

just out of wonder, is there any way you can replace the green squares with a image?

this is out of context

[crystal canyon]

Oh sorry no, it's in the 2nd post

[fossil grove]

no im not going to be changing the feature of the mod what

[crystal canyon]

immediately following the 2 visuals

[fossil grove]

it's already a shitty feature

[crystal canyon]

Does that clear up the perceived illogicality?

[fossil grove]

only somewhat, i think there's still some questionable logic here. I guess I'll write a full response to this even though it's around 1am and i have a midterm tmr

I'm going to reference what you say:

While they previously detected chests automatically, this is feature has been removed, meaning they are no longer chest esp.
honestly icl saying this paints me in a really bad light and is misleading to say. they were never true esp unless you waypointed literally every single possible coordinate, which is ~8MB of memory per chunk with hashset iteration performance which means it's practically impossible to use this as real esp (yes there's an issue with TOV + specific situations i didn't account for). Real ESP loops over all block entities in a level, which is fast because it's (iirc, i don't remember the exact minecraft internal data structure) literally array list iteration over the list of loaded block entities, while the ""pseudo-esp"" is linear in the number of blocks loaded, and uses hashset iteration which is much much much slower. I haven't ran any numbers but I suspect waypointing the entire world (up to reasonable bounds) probably takes some

With a very trivial benchmark:

import java.util.*;

class Main {
    static void test() {
        Set<Integer> iset = new HashSet<>();
        List<Integer> output = new ArrayList<Integer>();
        for(int i = 0; i < 65536 * 256; i++) { iset.add(i);}
        int ms = (int) System.currentTimeMillis();
        for(var entry : iset) { if(((entry - ms) & 0xff) == 0) {output.add(entry);}}
    }

    public static void main(String... args) {
        for(int i = 0; i < 1000; i++) {
            final var rn = System.currentTimeMillis();
            test();
            System.out.println(System.currentTimeMillis() - rn);
        }
    }
}

(I've compiled this explanation here because i've had to explain multiple times how, no, flowey mod was never esp)

(256 is a very generous amount of chunks you need to have waypointed for """esp""" to work) you get ~800ms per iteration! This is like ~1 fps, which is not playable! So you literally cannot use this as ESP in any reasonable capacity!)

On paper, these mods are the same as Xaero's waypoints, however the increased convenience of use (1 file to load up every chest mapped on every shard) means they've boomed in popularity.
maybe this is true, but I think the blame is pinned on those who decided to compile and distribute such files. I highly suspect that even if you banned flowey mod in particular (which isn't what you're pushing for, i acknowledge that), this would still be an issue because xaero exists.

Where previously dozens of hours would've been needed to learn routes, effort is no longer required to lootrun:
Maybe this is true, but people have always marked down hidden chest locations. To loot run a dungeon you don't need hours to optimize routes, this is really only applicable to strikes and such. Timing isn't important enough in dungeons for this to matter.

But seeing images & videos with these mods is destroying my motivation to develop, so doing nothing isn't quite an option.
So yes, I think banning media containing these mods is indeed a valid solution, no? It's trivially enforceable.

Rather, I'd like to work with moderators to ban mass-chest-waypointing for the purposes of lootrunning like this in some capacity.
Here's the problem here: it becomes nearly impossible to decide if any specific instance can be considered "mass waypointing." If I only waypoint "hidden" chests, does that count? We also have epistemological questions, as well as feasability of enforcement

[humble fulcrum]

i agree

[crystal canyon]

Regarding the ease of use compared to xaero's, mass chest way-pointing has not ever been nearly as widespread as it is currently. You can draw a pretty clear correlation between the popularity of the mods and the popularity of these waypoints

On timing, I'm taking the word of the folks to optimize dungeons. My original post cites a quote from Niamn specifically

On seeing media including the mods, yeah, I'd be happy to see that gone

[fossil grove]

okay but like it's irreversible at this point right

you can't just go into everyone's computers and take the file away, even if you banned the feature, they could trivially convert it to some other format

[humble fulcrum]

i would just ban public sharing and posting of screenshots including waypoints

if thats what makes you happy

[clever hedge]

Max waypoints limited to 20

[fossil grove]

i mean that's a consistently and easily enforceable standard which is i think already better than 90% of what has been proposed so far

[crystal canyon]

Specifics and details will need to be worked out with mods. I can't imagine in practice every user removes the mods, realistically plenty of folks are going to keep doing it just like we keep catching Entity Radar and Cave Mode. If we outlaw these in the same vein to the same degree of success, I'd take that as a win

As for the original esp/pseudo esp message, I have zero comprehension of the code or point you're trying to make, honestly. From my eyes, the mod was automatically highlighting / unhighlighting chests, which seemed to be ESP.

[fossil grove]

that's not my point though, Entity Radar and Cave Mode has problems with enforcability but not well-definedness

[crystal canyon]

Yes I know its hard to define

I get that

my internal post is non specific because of that

[humble fulcrum]

automatically highlighting and unhighlighting chests isnt true esp like flowey said and also it can be allowed as a nice qol feature honestly

[crystal canyon]

I am not ignorant to the mess of gray area we're poking at

A mod automatically highlighting nearby chests sounds exactly like what esp does

[fossil grove]

it doesn't automatically highlight nearby chests

it never did that

[crystal canyon]

Okay thats good then

[fossil grove]

it never automatically did anything except skip rendering on chests that were broken

full stop

[crystal canyon]

Right, detected they werent there

that was the initial reason I compared to esp

[fossil grove]

but that's not what esp mods do

esp gets you a visual on every chest in a world, for any arbitrary world

[crystal canyon]

idk man, if its telling me there isn't a chest on the other side of a wall that used to be there but a player broke it

that feels funky

[fossil grove]

you can use some convoluted definition of esp but there's a fairly well accepted idea of what esp is and what it does

sure you can come up with some abstract and more general definition of esp but that's not what people think when you say esp

and it paints me in a really bad light to say "yeah your mod is practically esp, what are you a cheat developer"?

[crystal canyon]

thats a level of extrapolation I don't think anyone went to

and you removed it the instant it came into question

[fossil grove]

idk man, if I were told "this guy's mod has esp" i would think "this guy's mod is hacks" and therefore "this guy develops hacks," but sure

i don't think it's that far of a stretch

[crystal canyon]

wasn't it just like the compatibility from the other one

mme

[fossil grove]

yes

[crystal canyon]

yeah I just took it as copying a feature from an assumed completely valid mod

[fossil grove]

yeah but you know the context

i can't say for sure everyone does

[crystal canyon]

and then under further consideration months later it became iffy

thats fair to not assume that

[fossil grove]

okay maybe bad phrasing on my part but im not saying you specifically are accusing me of being a cheat developer, it's more like the phrasing you wrote can lead someone to believe that claim

does that make sense?

[crystal canyon]

I can understand that, my mistake

[fossil grove]

anyway my main concern is, in order:

1. whatever ruleset should be well defined
2. it should be scoped appropriately
3. it should ideally be enforceable (which has two problems, which is "can a moderator even tell" and "how much effort it takes for a mod to tell")

a good solution solves what you want to solve (i.e. not suffering a loss of developer motivation), is well defined, and easy to enforce.
one thing that i think achieves something close to your goal and has the other two properties is simply banning media containing the mod, and banning public sharing of waypoints in playcord

[humble fulcrum]

^

[vast blaze]

I'm going to have to redo most of my footage

[mortal grail]

just undo it atp

🥀

[tawny marlin]

Might want to take it down for now and maybe rework the video

[vast blaze]

I've redone the video around 4 times already so might aswell just do it rn

[tawny marlin]

Yeah it's what it's at the end of the day

[stark stag]

Flowey my goat

[shy horizon]

we finally come to a conclusion after 3446 messages

[shadow junco]

https://tenor.com/view/fuwamoco-internet-debate-bau-bau-gif-12436518011737535757

[tawdry rain]

confidential YouTube

no way they put a warning an a fuwamoco clip

[shadow junco]

"if you or a loved one has been affected by fuwamoco"

[stark stag]

And the conclusion is just what the original message said

[tawdry rain]

wynncraft wardrobe wonders discourse on a smaller scale

[violet edge]

[tawdry rain]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1152681023453270146/1311003586435747863/togif.gif

[queen bridge]

that is simply not true

[clever hedge]

So conclusion
There’s now allowed mods, banned mods and media-restricted mods

[vast blaze]

Do we have a answer when this is going to take place?

[clever hedge]

Not that I’m aware
Mods will announce it probably

[vast blaze]

have you warned the spoiler-chat waypoint provider?

[clever hedge]

No?
I’m just a player

[queen bridge]

i can delete all of them the moment they are not allowed

[vast blaze]

i thought that sword roll was something else, mb

[queen bridge]

any mod can really

[vast blaze]

they are allowed until the mods announce it

[clever hedge]

Yeah no rp artist is not part of tm

[shy horizon]

we couldve gotten this result on message #1

maybe the rule is r4 casino jackpot and we are beta testing it

[bronze oyster]

in #1022346855444656189 ? impossible

was absolutely zero chance the thread was ever going to stay on topic

the several thousand message derail about banning the act of lootrunning itself and implementing various anti-cheat measures was inevitable

[humble fulcrum]

^

[warped dome]

Highlighting every chest in a static dungeon is functionally equivalent to esp. No it isnt chest esp. In the context of monu's 99% static content there isnt any useful difference. It definitely functions as a psuedo-esp for monu content. If anything its superior to a basic chest esp because (1) you cant get honeypotted by a fake chest and (2) you can target useful (loot) chests instead of seeing all chests. And no this isnt specific towards FMA waypoints.

I think a clear ban could be:

Mods used to mark (waypoints, chest esp, breadcrumbs, etc) any typical dungeon/strike loot chests or spawners (not quest items, uncommons, or other containers with special static loot tables)

personally, i dont lootrun dungeons and i dont mind that people lootrun dungeons. I just dont think its consistent to ban chest esp but not its equivalents including this form of waypoint abuse

[bold portal]

tbh i don't really find something like knowing chest locations with waypoints or whatever "abuse"

just my opinion

[fossil grove]

I no longer care nor have any input because I have deleted my mod. Please do not involve me any further in this matter

[hard saffron]

the mod is GONE GONE? or just waypoints

[whole oasis]

gone gone i think

[snow holly]

[tawdry rain]

wtb charm rate mod

[hard saffron]

NOOOOOOOOOOO

[tawdry rain]

🥀

[shadow locust]

you can use internet archive to download it

but it'll be 3 months out of date

[hard saffron]

when mm updates it will BE OVER

i hope someone will take over updateing it 🙁

[shy horizon]

is mod no more

[proper galleon]

introducing the fma download black market, coming to your local discord server in ~ a month

[shy horizon]

wts fma download pre1.8 dm for offer
yea this is happening soon

good luck team monumenta

[narrow mango]

mme

[warped dome]

well i just think that in the they are used it is effectively a 1:1 to chest esp (because chest locations never change). So if you are going to ban chest esp you should (imo) also ban the basically-chest-esp-but-not-technically mods too. If you wanted to not ban chest waypointing and also not ban chest esp that would be different and i dont have an opinion on that

[warped dome]

also fyi I was responding to the general idea that esp and chest waypoints are incomparable in this context and not to flowey or FMA (which is why I said "And no this isnt specific towards FMA waypoints")

[mossy sigil]

idk i had a bad experience with a player doing it while ive only really ever normal cleared; so ive never really touched doing wool dungeons with strangers since

since i figured i'd slow them down to the point its a detriment

whole economy side too

[ember grove]

awesome

[supple swift]

Shutting down entire well made mod over one questionable feature seems a bit excessive...

[humble fulcrum]

i understand why tho

[fossil grove]

it's honestly not worth maintaining and having my name be associated with the mod anymore

i'm not interested in dealing with stress and drama, so please don't involve me any further

please do not ping me in this thread

[queen bridge]

i understand but removing the whole mod instead of the feature feels excesive

[spice owl]

for what benefit

foss is thankless

I dont blame the guy

[spare tundra]

fma will be missed

but yeah cant blame either

hp glow is like the best thing ever

[spice owl]

usbplus

has it

[spare tundra]

oh

peak

[azure vapor]

usbplus is a goated mod

[spare tundra]

lemme read hold on

[queen bridge]

hph too

[azure vapor]

it has shift while looking down to toggle pickup modes

[spice owl]

"just leave it up, surely people wont just tell other people to use the old version, and you'll get called out for the exact same thing even though that feature isnt even in mainline anymore" is like. Bro is done.

[humble fulcrum]

i mean

[spare tundra]

jsmacro scripts

oh

is it literally jsm

[spice owl]

Now he can just say its removed, and out of his hands

[humble fulcrum]

honestly

i would keep maintaining the mod

[spice owl]

very clean, low effort, perfectly reasonable

yeah well

[humble fulcrum]

if i had the repo that wasnt 10 months outdated

[spare tundra]

days monumenta addons

[humble fulcrum]

but idk if flowey wants to do that?

[fossil grove]

it's GPL, you can do whatever the license allows

[spice owl]

flowey wants to entirely distance himself from it

[fossil grove]

just don't tag my name on it please

[humble fulcrum]

ok

but i need the latest repo

probably

[fossil grove]

im not distributing the repo

[humble fulcrum]

the one on my machine is 10 months outdated so

[fossil grove]

you can find a up to date enough jar

[humble fulcrum]

ok

fernflower time?

[spice owl]

I just want to say. I gained a lot of respect for your outlook over the course of this. If that is any small consolation.

[humble fulcrum]

same

you actually made really good points

[spice owl]

Being able to recognize when it isn't worth it and step away is respectable

[vast blaze]

With the mod situation right now, should people delete the mod?

[warped dome]

i dont think anyones seriously suggested banning waypoint mods so definitely not

xray texture packs are banned that doesnt mean you cant use texture packs

[spare tundra]

no official stance on waypoints so you can use that still

as for fma in general i think you're free to use it but it won't be supported anymore since flowey doesnt wanna be associated

[paper tide]

why are we acting as if this is crazy

"good luck to enforcing the rule about not using cheats, people will just get it via unofficial channels now!" as if this isn't the case for literally everything 😭?

[spare tundra]

fma is not that deep

it has like 0 vital features

they're all kind of.. nice i guess? but very replaceable

thats why its addons in the first place

[winged basin]

this text is for join thread cuz I lazy to find button

[humble fulcrum]

no more fused multiply addition

[frigid coyote]

This is a terrible sentiment to have, what’s the point on turning to full us vs them over what amounts to a qol mod with one abusable feature?

You are just saying “I wanna abuse the feature people are saying is clearly unfair to abuse, so I’m gonna do that, gl tm you can’t stop me”

I don’t mean to put words in your mouth and I’m actually sorry if I did, but idk how else to interpret that.

[jade onyx]

"But what if people break the rules to download disallowed modifications"

[tulip sky]

respect the decision flowey 🙏

[wicked tusk]

ban lr

[robust current]

first you need a definition of lootrunning that isnt "playing faster than me and i dont like it"

[frigid coyote]

wdym flowey did respect the decision

[jovial zealot]

respect the decision [of] flowey

[frigid coyote]

ah

[ember grove]

[i] respect the decision[,] flowey

[tulip sky]

^

[frigid coyote]

mb I suck at reading

[wide charm]

You run a tank set and just go break chests while not fighting anything

[robust current]

ok but what about the people killing things while i tank and loot

[shy horizon]

teamwork

[wide charm]

i think that is fine as it is the only thing a support hiero can do apart from heal teammates/cbless

[robust current]

but that's running a tank set and breaking chests while not fighting anything

[paper tide]

purposefully obtuse

[supple swift]

Drawwy speech bubble

[vast blaze]

I’m doing a true pacifist run

[wide charm]

reminds me of the time a person said they werent eating rabbits in the early dungeons cause they consider them as friends and not food

[neon pivot]

https://tenor.com/view/jimmy-butler-jimmy-butler-paper-confused-gif-14478007832172093541

[crisp pivot]

I remember that

So based

[finite temple]

wait thats so fire though

[storm gorge]

is that on discord or a yt comment

[crisp pivot]

#screenshots message

[vast blaze]

anyways my thinking of lr is instead of mass genocide, just steal mob loot and laugh at them trying to catch you

[shy horizon]

approved

[wide charm]

me thinking of it is why play the game if you arent playing the game .

[queen bridge]

playing the game how you want =/= not playing the game

[shy horizon]

apparently some still consider clearing as playing the game and looting isnt

[tulip sky]

so you can play other parts of the game

[proper galleon]

looting parts of the game ur not interested in (anymore or at all) is required to play parts of the game u are interested in optimally

biggest culprit is delve mats id say

[wide charm]

not really . you simply dont need that much money in the game

[proper galleon]

if u want to play optimally (which most ppl want) u do

even just playing cz requires multiple sets

again, if u wanna be optimal, not considering the average player

[hard saffron]

doesn't only shadow need multiple sets

[proper galleon]

delve is simply not a replayable enough system to support infusing many different sets

[wide charm]

and you see those "optimal players " quit after a month cause of burn out

[wide charm]

yes

[proper galleon]

like once u do challenge and clear delve normally like 5-6 times ur kinda done with the piece of content

[wide charm]

and with cz u can make a bajillion har so it kinda pays for itself

[proper galleon]

but thats barely enough for two pieces of that infusion

[wide charm]

you dont consider that you can convert the mats from other places to get some of those mats

[proper galleon]

other places that u also lr cuz uve already done a bunch

it a mix of ctm not being a replayable content type at its core and the feeling of same-iness every delve run provides

[cedar night]

That's their own choice and i think this is for discussing lootrunning mods (whatever, this is a message so I can check here easier

[modern hollow]

I feel like an easy fix for this would just be to use the system thats already in place when you first get to a region

"A mob is guarding this spawner"

encouraging gatekeeping kinda makes it hard to keep up with players who do lootrun

those who are friends with top players who no longer accept friends get richer others get poorer

classic rich get richer poor get poorer type thing which kinda kills the spirit of something meant to be fun since many people like to compete stat wise for their fun

I feel like the soft gatekeep could be changed a bit as well to work, where players could be allowed to ask for advice on setup/technique lootrun setups are already very endgame using several epics.

just my thoughts feel free to add yours

[dreamy hill]

That’s every game

Once you know what you’re doing, you will always be faster at making currency

[modern hollow]

Yes, but I feel that info should be allowed to be shared without being in peoples private settings

thats why I suggested that maybe allow people to ask but not post about it without people asking

[dreamy hill]

Yeah but dungeon chests should not be shared this way. It completely ruins the game

Exploration is part of it

[modern hollow]

Fair

you also have valid points

[dreamy hill]

I think it’s fair to share information, but the way you do it also matters

[warped dome]

the wiki, #spoiler-chat, etc... if you dont want to ban all of these things from public discord this doesnt make sense
and if you do then it does make sense but i wouldnt agree that it should be banned. people can play the PVE game however they want

[dreamy hill]

.

[warped dome]

?

i assume u are talking about the banning of sharing/showing waypoints in the public discord
idk what else you would be talking about in the context of "the way you [share information] also matters"

[shy horizon]

poor go normally clear an instance and they are on the same pace with waypoint user

[warped dome]

why would sharing dungeon chests be more harmful to the integrity of the game than spoiler chat/wiki npc coords and quest/discovery full walkthroughs

[dreamy hill]

Just the intention of it and what it achieves when used with mods that have block waypoints

vs like help with a puzzle. It’s just a one time thing, helps progress through lore/story and not directly benefits you financially in the way loot chests do

[warped dome]

as far as economy goes its worse but as far as the enjoyment of the game goes the quests/discoveries are more interesting than maybe like 20% more loot from hidden chests

[dreamy hill]

And yes, I think puzzle solvers are also unfair

[shy horizon]

why

[modern hollow]

I mean

they kinda do defeat the point of uh

yknow solving the puzzle

imagine your a dev you make a custom puzzle on monumenta which has some of the most unique puzzles for a mc server

and some guy pulls up making an addon that solves it for you

now everyone uses that addon

[shy horizon]

this looks similar to why they hate waypoints

you can learn both things, but they just dont want to see you cheesing it

[tulip sky]

i tried lring for the first time on white reverie and teal

i have to say it seems so difficult to memorize all the chest locations compared to smaller poi like nadir

and its nowhere near as repeatable

[fervent thunder]

just need reps

[tulip sky]

also the ratio of spawners to chests is kinda crazy

like sometimes 10 spawners 1 chest

[queen bridge]

waypointing dungeons made me realise that some parts of most dungeons can be fully ignored without losing loot

[robust current]

everyone who wasnt going to have fun doing a puzzle anyway*

[spare tundra]

i didnt waypoint but i still realize sometimes that i cleared a whole ass section of a dungeon and then think "why tf did i even clear this"