#Potion Balance and an idea for cracking down on it

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south sonnet
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luxury resource sink to let ppl do silly/unoptimal things that generally dont affect most of the game meaningfully

fleet crown
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delve material have plenty of sinks and theres also pretty innocent reynart potions too (like haste, xp, Legionary Lambang).

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reynart potions are split into 2 hour potions that are nice to have for endless stuff and the fucked up evil shorter duration god potions.

south sonnet
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I meant more of in like the masterball sense

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Items that exist to let ppl do dumb shit specifically for the purpose of doing dumb shit with an extraordinary price tag attached to make it clear theyre expensive exceptions and not for regular use

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masterball was a bad example, you cant really do anything silly with that

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Idk

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theyre definitely op, but that is intentional and was accounted for

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I think stuff that unintentionally warps game balance in unaccounted ways cause bigger problems in regular gameplay

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Mungfish pops up frequently whenever this topic comes up

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Haste, before it got shot

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Speedpots are kind of a tossup i guess, i’m not knowledgeable to talk about those with any confidence

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Or well

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Dark thunder exists as the ultimate example of speedpot i guess, but i dont think anyone uses it outside of races do they? it fits more into the reynart godpot example i think

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Is it possible reynart pots will one day cause a huge problem in some later content? Yeah

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But i think that is a problem that can be solved when it actually exists maybe, by just deleting them from existence immediately when it actually happens

fleet crown
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items that only exist to do dumb things maybe dont need to exist. Dark thunder just adds an extremely high cost to beat race records that use it; I dont really know why it needs to cost 30 hcs per attempt of side content.

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you can just choose to delete then when the day comes though, theres not too much wrong with that other then it maybe upsetting players if its not done fast enough (like somebody gets a WR on new hard boss using reynhart potions and then they get removed too late and now people are sad they never had the chance).

solid oak
south sonnet
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Isnt there a speedcap race category now

solid oak
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what does that have to do with anything but yes

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you cant even use dthunder in town races so its unrelated

south sonnet
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Does it not effectively function as a race where thunder is banned

solid oak
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its literally different content

south sonnet
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I see

fleet crown
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most races dont have speed cap mode

south sonnet
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given race records are official ingame content supported by the game

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I guess that would qualify dark thunder as “practical use” rather than “dumb shit only for being dumb” then

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In which case yeah i guess theyre a problem

fleet crown
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dark thunder is a god tier potion for regular use if you had a dupe glitch to use it. Could feasibly be used for non race stuff some day

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2.5 effectiveness of spectral schnapps

south sonnet
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I think the problem in that situation is the dupe glitch…?

novel trellis
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If only I had specs in r1

fleet crown
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you would need one if you where to use them as upgrade instant heal potions. It wouldnt have to be a literal dupe glitch for a cheeky dark thunder to break limits though (like you make a hidden secret area that has an impossible jump, but somebody does it by using dark thunder, or a boss attack is supposed to kill you but you outrun it using a dark thunder)

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dark thunder is already on the hit list though (or at least it was) so kinda not really worth dissuading it in more detail sine the devs know all about it.

fallen terrace
solid oak
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of course not im talking about wr

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idk that any race even needs 60% speed pots

south sonnet
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Given its post purple content iirc none of the content before then can be impossible without it anyway

dark ferry
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i don't know if this has already been mentioned but ih/absorp, while on paper it's ridiculous, I've only ever needed ii on like

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assassin, lr, and r1 classes

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the majority of my builds don't even have it in my hotbar

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so I don't even know if it's as problematic as we're making it out to be

fallen terrace
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No it's very problematic because it leads to kill or be killed design or content specifically designed to counter the utterly bonkers amount of healing players have access to

dark ferry
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I'm not even convinced pi is the main culprit of that tho, I mean who is using it even only once every 10 encounters

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In a 25 point poi, pi saves my life at most like once and more often zero times no matter what I'm running

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I've actually found twisted pomes to be like

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Drastically preferable to running a potion injectior

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Pi doesn't really even save you time when saturation is almost 100% of your healing

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Maybe I'm in the wrong here but I really only ever use pi in bosses or region 1, I dont even think my r3 lr set has one

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I still think in a vacuum it's insane but with how good saturation and other forms of sustain are, its not that drastic of a leap

fallen terrace
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saturation is also a problem along with other forms of healing

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everything should be reduced if things are to change

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however access to 40% instant healing with zero downsides is pretty insane even on paper

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sure, saturation matches it, but that just means everything has to kill you in 5 seconds to be able to kill you

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it helps set an unhealthy standard for mob damage

fleet crown
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if you do high points in r1 your gonna end up using PI a lot. If we just dont count that then I guess your right that PI is not necessary but thats only because r1 is just easy returning to it as an endgame player.

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instant heal is also more about giving you a second life, rather then it being all of your sustain. Your natural regen is really strong too, so your not having to depend on instant heal to survive chip damage.

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expect for when chip damage becomes 60% of your health bar, but at least thats not in most of the game (is getting more common though!)

fallen terrace
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think of it this way: every class has a 5s cooldown 40% lifeline at the push of two buttons

novel trellis
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Lifeline is a tiny bit exaggerated but so good at describing it otherwise that I'm alright with it

dark ferry
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in practice i would say its pretty good for like maybe 3 specs and lootrunning and bossfights

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actually I would say the effect you describe where pi's existence promotes a certain kind of difficulty is most relevant to boss design, but even then content like intruder very rarely will kill you in less than 3 hits (situations where pi would save you)

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anywhere else its like the single worst lifeline of all time and unless you're playing assassin in mr there is a good case to be made that it doesnt need to be (and in some cases shouldnt be) on your hotbar

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I dont think with how monumenta currently works consus are that big of an issue other than maybe attackspd/speed/reynart buffs. other games like wynncraft have it far far far worse. for specifically ih/absorpt, a nerf doesnt really make sense with how insane all healing is right now, so short of reworking the entire combat i dont see how its gonna change

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but idfk maybe im just dead wrong and it actually is a major problem, thats just not the experience ive had

solid oak
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being overkill and being overpowered are unrelated ^ and in harder content it isnt even overkill its a gamechanging level of utility

dark ferry
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if everything is overpowered then whats the problem

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if you removed all ih and absorp potions tomorrow

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i do not thing the game outside of certain bosses would be substantially more difficult

solid oak
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would you say a godmode option is okay to add

dark ferry
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what hypothetical? i'm literally saying all forms of health sustain are incredibly strong and that 40% ih every 15s isnt as insane as it sounds because of that

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(tho you can alternate ih and absorp which does make it stronger)

solid oak
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im not talking about how it sounds i (and many other endgame players) use it in every piece of content that I want to optimize (which is most of the time) because it is gamechangingly powerful

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and it isnt even a 15s cooldown

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its 5s

dark ferry
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the sickness is 15s iirc

fallen terrace
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sickness is 20%

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so realistically it is 40, 32

tame finch
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pi enables ih you can use ih without pi and its still op

fallen terrace
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... which is still stupid

fallen terrace
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And it has no CD to splash

dark ferry
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i recently did a fresh playthrough

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splashing ih

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is insanely buns

tame finch
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yeah

solid oak
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no it isnt but yes pi is an improvement over splashing

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this isnt even unique to monu splash IH is overpowered pretty much everywhere in minecraft its just normally trumped by totems

dark ferry
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insanely buns was an exaggeration but as someone whos never played pot it didnt feel worth but now that i think about it i can see why no cd can be good

placid cosmos
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this sounds like daniel but banish is cast every 5s

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and sr already proved that healing is never a problem it just fucks with team comp

south sonnet
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If PI didnt exist, ppl would just directly carry splash heal/absorption in their hotbar but that requires refilling it from your inventory after every use

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Which would still be quite strong on its own even then

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so it takes a somewhat large issue and dials it up by an extra level

gritty swift
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what if all IH pots required a drink to use

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(and pi reworked with this bla bla)

south sonnet
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my favorite form of absorption is the absorption honey from casino

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It feels like the least cheesy to me, but that’s just my opinion idk

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it stacks for convenience but it isnt instant apply

gritty swift
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part of why these pots are crazy are that you can move full speed while using them

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so no risk

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what if they became dark souls ichors

thin raft
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i use pi most in r2

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i wonder why

south sonnet
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Swordberries are cool too

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Do all food items take the same time to eat or are some faster

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I’m a bit cooked on remembering what is vanilla behavior rn after a bunch of modpack marathons

south sonnet
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I still allowed myself to use PI to apply buffs but that was a personal decision

remote valve
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erm weird wording

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kelp is eaten twice as fast

dark ferry
# south sonnet It’s not the main culprit, but it multiplies the problem

I didn't really mean pi I meant more ih/absorp in general. I've already said this but I do actually believe we could completely remove ih/absorp pots from the game and very very little would change, so if there is a too much healing issue ih is far from the only culprit and isn't uniquely problematic

south sonnet
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IH isnt the only culprit, just the most wildly available and applicable to every class

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Cleric and shaman are also frequently brought up whenever this topic pops up

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Re: my complaints about “healing availability issue” and “buff strength availability issue” being lumped together when non-potions also are involved

thin raft
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cleric and shaman should be healing

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idk i dont use pi on cleric or shaman

south sonnet
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They should yes

thin raft
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i do use it for r2 mage because r2 and also mage

south sonnet
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But cleric doesnt have a cd on healing right now

thin raft
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and i also use it for bosses to greed dps

south sonnet
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The biggest offender for cleric is boon’s lv1 effect

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As a specific example of the shenanigans boon allows, it’s very difficult to be killed by drask’s ice wave if a serious cleric is present since most will immediately react by tossing an absorption pot if they believe someone will be caught out

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Mostly applicable to first clearers

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Barring jump off the arena into the void/water, a cleric seriousness enough about keeping someone alive can keep someone actively suicidal alive harder than their ability to get themselves killed

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Shaman i cant reasonably comment on, i dont play it enough to make an informed opinion

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I was just mentioning it gets brought up a lot

south sonnet
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Generally content is designed and/or balanced for the current state of the game when it was released and sometimes continually updated to account for changes, and healing being widely available has been part of that for a long time

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you might not use potions much as a major source of healing but that certainly isnt true for a lot of others

thin raft
thin raft
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on a 10s cooldown

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but i have played a lot of hiero during drask

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and i can say that if i try i can actually just keep healing a suicidal person

south sonnet
# thin raft no just use hol

hol has a cd, is a cone and not a sphere (unless you spend a point), and requires them to first have taken dmg to heal it back

thin raft
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well idk

south sonnet
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Idk about it being balanced or not

thin raft
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ive kept a lot of people alive in drask

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and hek

south sonnet
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But it’s at least not blatantly unfair

thin raft
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chain healing wave i feel like is unfair

tacit estuary
thin raft
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if u have a sooth in ur team its quite impossible to die

tacit estuary
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but i think you get to edit the time once the server is upgraded 1.20.5+

south sonnet
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Cleric can kinda just give everyone in a 12 block radius +40% more hp for a few xp bottles

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no cd

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refresh as often as they feel like

remote valve
south sonnet
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That does sound pretty strong

remote valve
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idr iirc 12s cd

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and dont forget

tacit estuary
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i think a good (at least to my sight) point sigia made is about gapple

remote valve
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whirlwind totem

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exists for cdr

tacit estuary
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to my knowledge most good cz shadow players chugs gapple like water

remote valve
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because cz gives loads

tacit estuary
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yeah to some level its self sustaining

remote valve
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their stonk is also cheap iirc

thin raft
south sonnet
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#1415472677950455952 message

tacit estuary
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i didnt use it until someone start to purchasing it from me so i gave it a try, and its amazingly good

south sonnet
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I complained about that too

thin raft
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pomes are cheap enough to chug

south sonnet
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pomes should probably be less free

tacit estuary
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maybe gapple in general is too good im not so sure

south sonnet
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Like every other gapple item type has a high cost at least somewhat proportional to their strength i think

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soul thread ones are very expensive, kaul ones are difficult to acquire in large quantities

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Casino ones are similarly not that easy to amass in bulk

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I cant think of any gapples off the top of my head close to the price to value ratio pomes have

tame finch
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pomes got nerfed hard previously

tacit estuary
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actually high asc cz do be difficult so its not somewhat unfair it drops pome

south sonnet
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It probably doesnt help that there isnt enough reward types in the game to replace consumable rewards with

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Other mmos have stuff like loot quality rolls, rng effect items like scrolls or enhancers, skilling supplies/boosters

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This caused problems for skr caches too

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stares at pshards

placid cosmos
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good side of it is that items are long term more accessible sinfe you can always farm mats

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bad side is relatively boring loottable (therefore the hype of cz charms kicks in)

south sonnet
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Yeah