#What is an Alchemist?

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naive charm
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Part II: The abilities

Despite what people might tell you, I don't believe there's any must pick skills within the alchemist skill set. However, an issue that exists is that there is often little incentive to pick level 1 of a skill.

Alchemist skills still follow the traditional "do A in level 1 and do A better in level 2" instead of the more modern "do A in level 1 and do A+B in level 2" model. Splitting skills into A+B model can allow people who only want A to have better flexibility in skill loadouts. For example, modern iteration of taboo does this well by giving level 1 the full damage boost and make level 2 purely about burst taboo.

I will give my takes on each alchemist abilities, and write some rework proposals for some of them. Do take into notice that my opinions of certain alchemist skills might be radically different from yours, refer to the above paragraphs on class identity. (And please provide feedbacks, including the stats of the proposed reworks)

Class passive:

It is basically "your bag works now". Contrary to popular opinion, I don't believe that any active needs to be integrated into the passive. I am also opposed to making recharge rate a bag stat because that would be a nightmare to balance. Reducing the cooldown to 1.5s might work but I don't really think it's that needed, existing potion management is already good enough.
(Also can we at least have a toggle to turn off upwards motion when throwing pots? It makes high speed bags really hard to aim)

Brutal Alchemy:

This is probably the closest to "must pick" skill for alchemist. DoT is good and helps pot economy. The only problem I have with it is LI being bad and the enhancement being just level 3.

||### My rework ideas:
Level 1: Your potion now inflict a damage over time effect that deals 30% of your potion damage per second for 8 seconds. This cannot be lower than 1.
Level 2: Your potion now inflicts 5% vulnerability for 8 seconds on hit. This can stack up to 3 times to 15%. (Read my comments for gruesome below)
Enhancement: The DoT effect deals 15% more damage everytime it ticks, capped at 60% bonus damage. (This gives alch slightly better damage output, if given enough time)||

Gruesome Alchemy:

Probably one of the less picked skill. On top of not applying the DoT, you also lose 20% of your potion damage. This is on top of debuffs currently being underwhelming in general, sure the application method here is very consistent but there's little need for debuffs when you can just one shot everything with AA. I think the way forward here is just to remove the skill and integrate vulnerability into other skills, and leave the rest to bag enchants (which results in better bag diversity!)

||### My rework ideas:
[Will fill this up when I come up with something fun, maybe some pot regen skill considering odor reworks]||

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Iron tincture:

Poise is a pretty bad situational. It's either useless or "20% resistance if your spec is apothecary". What is worse is that it actively harms skill designs surrounding absorption. It makes tincture overpowered on poise builds and underwhelming in other builds (50 seconds cooldown, seriously?). It would also be a good idea to give the thrown item better pickup radius so it's easier for other players to pickup (right now you need to go out of your way to walk over it). Also this skill is pretty bad in level 1 so yeah.

||### My rework ideas:
Level 1: Now gives 10 absorption.
Level 2: Cooldown of the skill is reduced to 35 seconds.
Enhancement: In a 5 block radius, grants other players the effect of tincture, and stuns all mobs for 1.5 seconds.||

Alchemical Artillery:

I have lobbied for the removal of old alchemical artillery and I will do it again. People like the skill because it can replace normal pot throwing, but I hate the skill exactly because of this. Because you can now click once to finish the engagement, you have little incentive to interact with other skills, all you need is just take enough damage passives and spam AA. I don't believe alchemists should deal this much burst damage (consider the existence of charms also) with 6 second cooldown (which pretty much doesn't exist if you only use it once per engagement). To fit the aforementioned class identity better, the skill should be changed to focus on crowd control instead of damage.

||### My rework ideas:
Level 1: Drop while holding an alchemist bag to throw out a special potion. The potion creates a zone lasting 6 seconds with the radius of 175% of your potion radius, and any mob that dies in the zone drops a potion that deals 30% of your potion damage. 9 seconds cooldown.
Level 2: The zone now inflicts all on hit effects every second within it.
Enhancement: All potions splashed within the zone have 50% increased radius.||

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Empowering Odor:

Le support alchemist skill, but most people pick it for the level 2 effect. I think making level 2 actually related to the ability would be good game design, maybe a little healing to better fit the "potion maker" aspect of the class? This skill should be the supportive version of brutal alchemy.

||### My rework ideas:
Invigorating Alchemy
Level 1: Other players hit by your potions are given 20% speed and 10% damage boost for 8 seconds. You also gain this buff if you hit at least 1 other player with this. (I decided to keep the strength because 1. more incentive to help team 2. not consistent enough to be overpowered)
Level 2: Additionally applies 10% healing and Regeneration I for 8 seconds. (maybe healing boost instead of direct healing?)
Enhancement: The first direct melee/projectile hit other player deals to an enemy splashes a potion but does not inflict on hit effects. (This would probably be more interesting than "making DPS more powerful", do note that the damage scales from the magic damage stat of the recipient, but the base stats are determined by the alch bag)||

Unstable Amalgam

I don't have much to say about the skill since it's good enough (too much burst for my liking but the cooldown justifies it ig), but level 1 could probably be more worthy to use and the enhancement is too funny to be locked to enhancements.

||### My rework ideas:
Level 1: Cooldown is now 16 seconds (same as L2), damage is reduced to +5. (So you can pick L1 if you just want the potion regen or the knockback/CC)
Level 2: Damage is now +15
Enhancement: The skill no longer deals any knockback, but instead pulls mobs in (lets be real this is going to be funny as fuck)||

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Energizing Elixir

Well well well, everybody picks the skill but also hate it. I don't think this skill is healthy for the current game at all. The other thread already talked about why this skill harms class design so I won't go over it again. (Although I don't know where to put the mobility boosts after my rework, or if the class deserves high mobility at all).

||### My rework ideas:
Distillation
Level 1: Passively gain 1 stack every 3 seconds, up to 6. Left clicking consumes all stacks and empowers the next potion thrown by you to inflict 5% slowness, 5% weakness and 3% vulnerability per stack for 10 seconds. (A powerful debuff skill, combines the debuff potential from Gruesome and also gives alch a panic button)
Level 2: Max stack is increased to 10.
Enhancement: On impact, additionally creates a cloud with the same radius that lasts 5 seconds that inflicts the same debuffs and the cloud radius expands by 0.25 blocks every second. (The expansion here is mainly for charms)||

Bezoar

A solid skill, no complaints beside the enhancement being a meme. (Small note, would be a good idea to make the healing bypass all healing penalties)

||### My rework ideas:
Enhancement: Honestly no idea, what about making mobs be able to pick up bezoars for you, and debuffs them with they pick it up?||

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Specialization skills:

Honestly they are less problematic than the base kit, so I will go over them quickly. (Note: I don't play apothecary that much these days so take my opinions with a grain of salt)

Panacea: Feels like TM just shoehorned the damage here tbh, would like to see it to lean into CC/Support more.

Warding Remedy: It's good.

Transmutation Ring: At the very least it needs less duration/cd (like the regenerating chalk effect), but probably need more work to make it actually interesting.

Esoteric Enhancements: Read my previous thread

Taboo: It's too passive to be interesting, but also no major drawbacks. Maybe make it damages you per potion thrown instead? idk, could have more unique benefits.

Scorched Earth: It's fine I guess...

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Part III: Bag design

I think the problem here is just there's isn't really meaningful bag diversity here.
Especially in r1 and r2 where there are only like 3-4 bags with endgame stats. Adding artifact bags (upgraded from rare bags with mats) could probably help a bit. There is also many unexplored niches around (if TM is brave enough to use funnier numbers) that should filled.

Also would be nice to blanket buff most alch bag radius by 0.5 block, <3 radius shouldn't exist outside some specific niches, you are a CC class after all.

[INSERT ALCH BAG REWORK PROPOSAL HERE, WIP]

pine dirge
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did you literally just open another feedback thread after being told not to…

naive charm
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Do not derail the thread

polar tendon
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can you not

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like just put this in the alch thread?

naive charm
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and points made are too different from that thread

polar tendon
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-w-

naive charm
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only I should make lengthy alch threads

tepid jackal
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Ignoring the "alch isnt burst damage",
A lot of these reworks are pretty nice and I wouldn't mind the class going in this direction, as for specifics:

  • brutal being buffed at level 1 is a choice, and making dot up to 60% more powerful with the enhance is ALSO a choice
  • none of the problems with iron tincture are really solved here it's still a singular absorption shield with a very long cooldown, the enhancement just turns it into warding remedy lol
  • why does empowering heal + why does it only affect you if you hit another player that's not fixing the issue of "it's useless solo" + buffs are all over the place
  • why nerf amalgam L1
  • Distillation is cool could use a cd decrease on l2

Bold choice saying "having varied potion recharge rate on bags is bad" before complaining about bag diversity being low

naive charm
tepid jackal
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you literally nerf the damage by 5 how is it not a nerf

naive charm
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cooldown is lower (same as L2)

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so you can just pick L1 if you use it for say pot regen

tepid jackal
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I dunno it just feels like shafting newer players

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ua 1 is a great pick

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The CD decrease is well and good but the damage doesn't need to be halved

naive charm
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tincture isn't really fixable w/o fixing poise first

olive canyon
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Man what

naive charm
olive canyon
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Dude

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Literally the problem with tincture is the cooldown

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That's it

naive charm
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because poise makes tinct disproportionately powerful on poise builds?

olive canyon
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on a 50 second cooldown?

tepid jackal
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yeah having it be locked behind l2 for CD reduction doesn't help really

naive charm
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if you make it actually good for normal people It's going to be busted for poise

tepid jackal
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what's wrong with that

naive charm
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ngl the new situational changes could've solved that

tepid jackal
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the gimmick is that if you lose the shield you die

naive charm
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alch doesn't take much hits from my experience

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even post aa rework

naive charm
tepid jackal
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why are you buffing the definitively best damage skill in Alchemist's kit by a near order of magnitude

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and l2 does nothing I'm sorry it's not that impactful

languid echo
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"the alch thread to end all threads" ok..

naive charm
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do note that the current proposal would likely nerf overall damage

tepid jackal
naive charm
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posting another thread only feels historically accurate

viscid glen
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You can probably fit any topic related to alch in the alch thread to end all threads

languid echo
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5 feedback posts in the last 5 days, Doing too much?

languid echo
tepid jackal
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me when I can't think of a good reason as to why I keep feeding my ego

olive canyon
naive charm
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buff base skill + nerf charm

naive charm
olive canyon
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i can tell

naive charm
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+the thread is somewhat past it's prime

viscid glen
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This is like the why is there 14 standards we need to invent a unified standard and ended up with 15 standards

olive canyon
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literally, the fucking point

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it is a unified alch thread

tepid jackal
olive canyon
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when alch is updated i will ping a mod to unlock it

naive charm
knotty terrace
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yo @wild elk close ts 💔

languid echo
tepid jackal
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Anyways: I think you fell into a very easy trap - you stated that skills should be "A+B" for level 1 and 2, but a lot of your skill designs are two separate skills for levels 1 and 2 I think

olive canyon
main dove
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go make a thread complaining about feedback threads being bad

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i know you want to

naive charm
knotty terrace
tepid jackal
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And the ones that aren't are A, A but Better

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so, uh

naive charm
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example please

tepid jackal
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ua tincture distill are all A, A Better

naive charm
tepid jackal
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distill less so since it offers more flexibility but the rest are all numbers buffs

naive charm
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and cdr to some extents

tepid jackal
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And everything other than those is two separate abilities mashed together

naive charm
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maybe I just hate tinctures yikes

naive charm
main dove
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#1410585479308382271 message @naive charm

naive charm
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but that would literally be ee 2

naive charm
main dove
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fascinating

olive canyon
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man what

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can someone close ts

naive charm
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I'm sorry but please don't make megathreads OhTheMisery

main dove
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says who

naive charm
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me

knotty terrace
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dawg lucky all na mods r sleeping

naive charm
languid echo
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This might be ragebait

naive charm
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I literally just click the funniest gif in my album

pliant pelican
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My guy

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Did you just make like 3 or 4 alchemist threads in a span of a few days

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Can you just not wait like a few days

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And space them out

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And not post them almost at the same time

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Especially when treads supposed to be all encompassing exist

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I think its valid that when a major thread exists there shouldn't be any more minor threads

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I'd imagine devs and other players don't want to watch for messages and separate discussions in 2 separate threads

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And important information or discussion can be lost this way

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You should probably either make a doc and post it in an existing thread or wait a few days

naive charm
languid echo
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Wasn't a third one closed

pliant pelican
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Esoteric enhancements, alch identity and this one

naive charm
naive charm
languid echo
nova temple
naive charm
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Posting them in reply would almost certainly lead to less people reading your stuff

pliant pelican
languid echo
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Having them all in one feedback post is.. Better?

pliant pelican
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But for the discussion following your message no

naive charm
pliant pelican
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Is your goal reaching developers or influencing popular opinion? Devs would probably read it anyway if it was posted as a doc, but players indeed might not if it's a doc in an existing feedback thread

naive charm
olive canyon
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which is a more likely scenario for a developer looking to rework specifically Iron Tincture
digging through 4 threads and gameplay discussions and deciding fuck it im not reading allat
or opening the megathread, clicking on the iron tincture link and reading all the linked discussion all in one place

naive charm
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lets start from psyops

pliant pelican
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Though, uh, I think some players might still ignore your posts if you post them quickly in a short span of time and get them closed immediately for splitting the discussion

nova temple
pliant pelican
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That's why I think the best idea was to save the posts and post them later

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When the current discussion withers out

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Then you would also get feedback based on what people thought and discussed in the previous threads

languid echo
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I think mods should close this already

olive canyon
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mods asleep

languid echo
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yeah

olive canyon
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troll reclaim your heritage

languid echo
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Idk why you got your first one closed then immediately made another?

olive canyon
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don your uniform once again

pliant pelican
languid echo
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I cannot troll

main dove
pliant pelican
pliant pelican
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Balance is notoriously balance team dev dependent, and discussion literslly only serves to influence them

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It's not a marketing campaign, it's lobbying

nova temple
pliant pelican
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So if you want to see your changes implemented it's better to target them at the devs and not players

naive charm
nova temple
languid echo
naive charm
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lets be real balance devs don't read alch threads

languid echo
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How do you know that

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That's disingenuous tbh

pliant pelican
naive charm
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I've been complaining about alch design since item rework

languid echo
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I don't doubt they've had multiple discussions in tm about it, stuff take time especially because I think balance team is restructuring

naive charm
olive canyon
nova temple
naive charm
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In terms of opinion I am more correct than you

olive canyon
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thread has expired

odd turtle
nova temple
naive charm
nova temple
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idk why im here im like 15m away from the mona lisa

main dove
naive charm
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i am mostly correct

main dove
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yes thats true!

languid echo
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0/10 ragebait

main dove
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slayy

nova temple
olive canyon
languid echo
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New gen mods can't even close threads 💔

naive charm
olive canyon
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these whippersnappers...

naive charm
odd turtle
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Now this thread is just shitposting

languid echo
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Yeah idk why he's trying to be funny

naive charm
nova temple
olive canyon
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someone summon chiinox

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theyre online and leads can close stuff

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the christening of a new dev lead

main dove
naive charm
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oops