Metagaming Feedback Post: What exactly is going on lately?

[halcyon tapir]

yeah the loot from every spawner is like a dopamine hit

im personally not attached to monumenta being like a ctm

like at all

[rain quest]

wwhhaattt

[faint iron]

i dont think anyone is except the old devs

[halcyon tapir]

i think spawners and the default-like healing system is really annoying

[rain quest]

are you sure about that

[halcyon tapir]

yeah it really feels that way

[rain quest]

https://tenor.com/view/wynncraft-minecraft-tcc-the-canyon-colossus-the-ct-only-make-good-updates-gif-3756870450824161901

you know what doesnt have spawners and the default like healing system?

megido abyss

[hardy cedar]

understood monumenta profs coming next month

[halcyon tapir]

thats why megido the goat

that would be heat

[hardy cedar]

okay you get megido movement speed

nothing else

[rain quest]

the megido abyss stamina of a crippled infant

[faint iron]

Hn

will never understand games that limit your sprint duration

[halcyon tapir]

i think cqmera would enjoy a prof lb

[faint iron]

i think you're correct

i already have alch 50 setup on my plot ?

[halcyon tapir]

unemployed competition

need those default str 2 pots

[faint iron]

jump boost 3 actually

[ivory creek]

i think if we could just not have spawners magically it would be awesome

although mobs would have to be like much tankier i think

if they spawned once and then broke*

[fleet sage]

Please don't go down that way of thinking

[faint iron]

where does mob hp come into play here

[fleet sage]

Monumenta is cool because it's adventure map/ctm
If you remove spawners you just become HSB with different combat

[halcyon tapir]

i dont see how spawners really add much outside of like early game

obviously spawners wouldnt be totally removed but i think maybe in a seperate content no spawners could be neat

[sacred parcel]

rod is ur fav content then?

[faint iron]

do you actually enjoy mining spawners and thats part of the reason you play monumenta instead of anything else

[fleet sage]

It's part of the fun yes

You fight mobs, and then break spawners so that there won't be more mobs

[halcyon tapir]

yeah fighting the same fodder for 10 hours straight is amazing design

[fleet sage]

Also we already have 2 content pieces where theres no spawners

They have amazing play times

[faint iron]

would you agree then that you would rather spend time mining spawners to stop mobs from spawning than fighting another wave of new/more challenging mobs?

[halcyon tapir]

what

[rain quest]

Maybe cause they're repetitive and mind numbing

[sacred parcel]

wait whats the other? besides bosses

[rain quest]

Gallery, Rod

[sacred parcel]

gallery...

[ivory creek]

idk i think they mean something like a strike with no spawners

which i could see being quite cool

[rain quest]

I think that's how strikes should be

[ivory creek]

they'd have to be designed quite differently

[rain quest]

Fast paced gameplay bbuuut you gotta mine 300 spawners per instnace

[ivory creek]

i think mandatory bosses would be a good cap

[faint iron]

how will you get timed out for trying to solo the strike then :(

[ivory creek]

since you can't really tank set your way out of that (at least i think so)

[halcyon tapir]

youd lose the encounter instead of be forced to break spawners thats how

[sacred parcel]

if there are no spawners people would probably lootrun even more i imagine. just deswpawn mobs or nuke them. no punishment

[halcyon tapir]

anyways i dont see how rod and gallery are points when their combat is pretty different from everything else in the game

theyre just mob spam

and also theyre just boring

[faint iron]

just add chest prot to look at mobs?

not an argument

if you're killing all the mobs while in a lootrun set thats another problem entirely

[pallid sentinel]

Thoughts on making spawners more centralized
So like
Every spawner has much more shields and there are significantly less of them
And you risk them spawning again every second you waste

[faint iron]

thats the same thing

[sacred parcel]

i think this whole spawner convo is off topic

[halcyon tapir]

sorta

[ivory creek]

consider the following

[faint iron]

its not

pickaxe balancing relates to this

[halcyon tapir]

i view pureshard as reducing the bloat of spawners and healing and it just got nerfed this update

so thats why im talking abt this

i view this nerf as like a waste of my time mining spawners

altho i do like the increased diversity i guess but im not going to swap off pureshard

[sacred parcel]

this is mild compared to avenging souls chronology. ya cant even mine the spawner without one spawning. legit only reliable way is too tank or plop a lingering attack (totems)

[rain quest]

what diversity cro

[halcyon tapir]

stoneborn buff and boilerdrill is okay i guess

still value the healing over anything else so i dont gotta eat every2s

[faint iron]

play x10 slower and not have to heal or just heal from your class anyways and mine faster

[fleet sage]

Ex stoneborn, returning from the grave

[sacred parcel]

boilerdrill looks usable, especially for health bloated builds (like most warrior)

[ivory creek]

to be fair we do want you to go slower but there are probably better ways of going about it

[faint iron]

why

[rain quest]

boiler drill is just meta for spawner rushing now

[ivory creek]

not through pickaxe nerfs i mean just in general combat

[halcyon tapir]

no because spawner rushing usually is steadfast

atleast in hf and cz

[faint iron]

i mean why do you want us to play slower

[halcyon tapir]

so u still use pureshard or just like the r1 pick

[rain quest]

i see some people use agility

[shell lance]

Slower doing the most boring activity possible

[halcyon tapir]

yep

[ivory creek]

missed the part where

[faint iron]

although i would like to see longer encounters and or spawners being grouped more into encounters

[ivory creek]

i said there were better ways

[shell lance]

I’d rather just have a time gate for each room of a dungeon I go into

[forest rune]

i love breaking spawners

[shell lance]

Just to force it to go slower

So I could just afk

[faint iron]

no fastyzoom you cannot play hsr while waiting for the next room to unlock!!!!!

[ivory creek]

yeah i was gonna say

[shell lance]

That wa meant to be going with your point

[spark iron]

slower means spawning a boss every 100 spawners

[ivory creek]

atp just play hsr

[forest rune]

fastyzoom you need to close hsr

[faint iron]

TRUE

[sacred parcel]

Pureshard Adze
Efficiency 1 -> 2
Curse of Anemia 1

[ivory creek]

if im being real the gap between the highest clear and average clear is like squidiculous but its only really present in r3

[pallid sentinel]

Does you playing fast mean the content is too easy

[ivory creek]

i wonder why

there just isnt incentive to run strikes at harder difficulty too

[faint iron]

anyways would love to see mobs being tankier and or have more niche dangerous attacks (like the new twisteds) solely for the reason for better gameplay loop and not to intentionally slow us down

[halcyon tapir]

would a sapper pick simialr to old pureshard be feasible with like fragilities or is the speed and healing itself too problematic

[ivory creek]

well yeah when i say to play slower i dont mean artificially'

[sacred parcel]

thoughts?

[ivory creek]

i mean to like actually consider your approach to combat

part of why i made those mobs to begin with

[solar furnace]

Just nerf sapper then

[sacred parcel]

thats a 33% nerf to healing instead of 10%

[faint iron]

just put sapper on a cooldown

[rain quest]

soul rend ahh

[solar furnace]

I don't really need that much heal I think

[halcyon tapir]

yeah and their base mobs usually have high stats too

[sacred parcel]

nah put the pickaxe on cd

[solar furnace]

Epoch pickaxe?😭

[faint iron]

no, sapper would be on its own cooldown not affected by anything

3-5s maybe

enough to not full heal me while lootrunning and not enough to have it matter drastically for normal combat while still providing sustain

[halcyon tapir]

it would probably be kind of a bandaid fix but i think reducing healing of sapper depending on mobs nearby would be top 1 counter to sapper being goated in lootrunning

and make it still be fine for clearing normally

[tardy steeple]

heal all nearby mobs to max and give them +50% DR

[halcyon tapir]

because u mine enough spawners to where a cd of 3s would reduce ur healing alot in normal clear

[ivory creek]

Yeah if it's something like Quelled I will just use another pickaxe I think

[halcyon tapir]

if ur lootrunning ur not kiling mobs lol

[ivory creek]

Is it even possible to LR without pureshard

or do you just explode

[halcyon tapir]

i think its fine its just annoying

[faint iron]

you can probably lr with the hammer one now

10% res and melee prot 3 lol

[ivory creek]

EX Stoneborn is probably fast enough and provides enough DR to do that

[halcyon tapir]

yeah stoneborn would be 2nd best option

[faint iron]

leads back to the consumables problem

[ivory creek]

although one minus speed stat and maybe that would be enough

[faint iron]

woo hoo so many problems im gonna just go pack my suitcase

[cosmic hill]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-osu-greece-greek-cat-osu-cat-greek-gif-2694212203346871017

[halcyon tapir]

my goat stoneborn dropping from adren 1 to minus speed..

i dont think the nerfs even slowed gameplay it just feels like an outright waste of time because nothing is happening when ur mining spawners

[cosmic hill]

do the ravenous haze special and give it -speed adrenaline

[fast rover]

@shell lance r u pulling for hyacine/cipher

[faint iron]

saber!!!

[verbal dust]

i turned back early from like 40 spawners cuz with eff2 they would have been broken already

[fast rover]

she looks amazing but i havent watched fate

[sacred parcel]

sapper could have its own healing sickness

[halcyon tapir]

yeah this is the worst part about it 😿

[verbal dust]

encounter is done, you mine spawner and turn away cuz enough time has passed

with eff2 that is

i think we lr this

[shell lance]

Are u a fate fan

[faint iron]

it was a good watch

[shell lance]

Which route or both

[faint iron]

ubw

[golden meteor]

At least the charm cost of Toxic Steroid could have been decreased too

[halcyon tapir]

true that would be neat

i dont play alch that often for clearing but would one or two charm power and 20% dmg for the horrible healing rate be that crazy

because right now it seems like useless

[bronze cloud]

considering taboo lvl 2 got nerfed to 20%

a 20% damage boost is pretty big for 3 charm power

[ivory creek]

it gives me the same vibes as darkest pact i think

[patent axle]

i don't like taboo epic change because now it looks more boring

[void wadi]

but many of these items are too obvious choices when set building.
Yes. That is, quite literally, the entire point of this post. Patch after patch after patch you continue focusing on high usage rate items and beginning to make sure they are non high usage rate items. There are two (three, if you're 🤪 enough) usable, viable, realistically slottable, out of ten total shields in region 3 without actively nerfing yourself. Both were nerfed this patch.

I really do hope next month's patch is a better look than whatever this was.

[gaunt mountain]

if you want full details, then you should know that echoes of ruten was accidentally given 10 agility when it should have been given 7.5, it was only nerfed to 9 because it would feel terrible for the item to have been shot more than that, and might kill the item outright.

Now, there's one remaining shield that stands higher above all the others being Remnants of Isharist, have you considered that maybe the shield is overtuned rather than EVERY other shield being undertuned?

[void wadi]

Well, let's look at the shields objectively then

[golden meteor]

Silver Heart kinda sucks

[glossy wraith]

Yeah we have and we think most other shields are quite bad.
Vain star is OK. There really isn’t anything else

Also this update implies there are NO undertuned items as none were buffed

[fleet sage]

shields were supposed to have lower budget, but that was quickly forgotten because in r3 every other attack disables shield anyway to the point where the solution was adding infusion to shorten the duration of stun rather than decreasing bs quantities of those

[glossy wraith]

I don’t think that there are no undertuned items is true at all

[fleet sage]

Cutter recieved a buff

1 dmg buff

[glossy wraith]

Cutter is the only undertuned item and we fix it

We did it guys

[bronze cloud]

I mean shields still do have a lower budget

[crimson cypress]

why are both MR chestplate and Pauldron being nerfed for doing the purpose they are supposed to do

[glossy wraith]

Because rather than looking at the purpose that item fulfills we look purely at usage rates to nerf, is my assumption.

[lament sparrow]

These are not related in any way

Sturdy is not a solution to anything

[spark iron]

cutter's buff was supposed to be in MARCH

[crimson cypress]

What is the main reason of sturdy?

[spark iron]

it was just forgotten

[lament sparrow]

It's simply utility

[crimson cypress]

having less cooldown on a shield is utility?

[lament sparrow]

If we were going to address shield stunning in r3 specifically we would not do it with an infusion that can be used in every region

Shield stunning in r3 is a known problem but Sturdy was not conceptualized as a solution to that problem

[void wadi]

• Shimmering Veil is terrible, due to Cloaked being an inherently bad situational enchantment and it having literally nothing else going for it.
• Shackled Earth's Boon is literally one of the worst items in the game due to the absolutely
  aberrant enchantment of Anemia 2. Argentum has Anemia 1 and it's statted out the wazoo (unfortunately in the wrong way)
• Vain Star is fine, if you're still using armor these days
• You can make an argument for Hexcrafted on magic classes
• Defiled Carving
• Silver Heart, Tlaxan Bulwark and Mycelian Cap are all unfortunately in a sad position as they are all hypertank pieces and shields are not the slot to be putting a hypertank piece into due to the inherently lower budget they possess as an item type

[bronze cloud]

good timing

though its not exactly objective

[glossy wraith]

local armor user here vain star is fine 👍

I tried building with Tlaxan bulwark for like, hours a while ago

[spark iron]

the application of Hexcrafted is questionable nowadays too - Chimera's Grace exists for Paladin, and any other class would probably eat better from Wolfsblood being better damage

-# weh. chim grace is an Epic, i suppose.

[glossy wraith]

I couldn't make it work at all

[spark iron]

EX Tlaxan Bulwark is best friends with Agaric Abhorrence

kind of tough to slot that in anywhere though

[glossy wraith]

It kinda doesnt benefit you too much to do this combo though

[lament sparrow]

Yeahh those shields could all use some help I think

[glossy wraith]

So, we agree almost every shield is under-statted but rather than addressing that we nerfed the one shield that was consistently usable.
I don't get why TM is confused when people dont like balance updates.

[spark iron]

TL:DR; EVERY other shield is undertuned

[glossy wraith]

Vain star is fine, but armor as a whole is bad, which makes it bad.

So its undertuned by association.

[crimson cypress]

that is what mgviral is saying I think

omg hi cocopad

[glossy wraith]

yeah which is why saying EVERY is wrong since there is one that isnt!

[fleet berry]

Silver heart strikes me as the type of item waiting for the perfect partner that will never happen

[glossy wraith]

what partner is it looking for

[fleet berry]

Idk im not a item dev

[spark iron]

Blasphemous Cataphract

[fleet berry]

Thats not my job

But it seems like a decent item by itself does it not?

[crimson cypress]

you're not getting a proj fragility magic fragility item

[crimson cypress]

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[glossy wraith]

can i get a proj fragility magic fragility melee fragility item all in one?

[crimson cypress]

I have seen a total of zero players use it

need me -armor/agility items

[glossy wraith]

I really want to know usage stats

[spark iron]

(the viability of Guard heavily depends on what PoI you run. Bewitched elites have no melee attack, Chittering is infested with creepers which spawn 4 mobs on detonation, etc.)

[glossy wraith]

I would bet there are atleast 20 items with less than 10 hours of playtime a month.

[fleet berry]

Yeah its a tough world it lives in

Simply better to opt for items with dmg and defense

[spark iron]

(some places are prime locations for Guard, but even when it's up it's hard to justify using)

[void wadi]

i could go on an entire tirade about items with uneven KBR amounts

[fleet berry]

Even ironscale got the memo and got ONE stamina

[void wadi]

i should make a post about that

[crimson cypress]

skip the KBR yap !!

[glossy wraith]

KBR exists as a budget eater when an item dev decides an item might enter the viability range

[hasty canyon]

Step 1: Stop nerfing using usage rates

Step 2: buff items

[glossy wraith]

Its fine to use usage rates to identify problems.

Its not fine to "solve" those problems without figuring out why they exist to begin with

[hasty canyon]

I agree

[glossy wraith]

-0.5 agility doesnt fix 1 "agility magic damage boots" item existing.

i ranted about this above last night

so i wont rant again

[hasty canyon]

Yeah I read it

This is prolly the doomer in me but, i don’t see any changes coming from this post looking at how some of the devs reacted to it

[crimson cypress]

Still confused on why the only two options for attack damage chestplates were both nerfed

when both were struggling already

[void wadi]

usage rates

[crimson cypress]

my god 3.5 agility hurts to look at

[forest rune]

its time to go armorless so everything gets buffed

lets add 2 thorns damage

[fleet berry]

50% is such a godless item

[glossy wraith]

thorns is also in the category of stat added to item when item might become viable

[crimson cypress]

what does godless mean here

[uncut gust]

gulp

remember when it was 5.5 agility or something?

[void wadi]

its even funnier when chiinox said "well what if every other shield wasn't undertuned??"
Shimmering's gotten -0.5'd a couple times
SEB lost all its fucking atk speed lol

[cosmic hill]

3 patches later its probably gonna be 2 base agi

[void wadi]

its gonna be steadfast 2 ethereal 3 -4 agility by green's release

[hasty canyon]

This logic hurts my brain so much

[glossy wraith]

only 4 billion more months for the agility to underflow to the positives again

[hasty canyon]

Instead of buffing things to similar levels the “correct” thing is always to nerf

[glossy wraith]

Clearly, Tlaxan bulwark is the optimal level for an item to be at.

Items should strive to be as powerful and usable as that shield.

[fleet berry]

It fears no god

Infact that thing probably killed gods

[crimson cypress]

50% is like not that much

especially for 3.5 agility

[glossy wraith]

50% is the 4th highest damage stat

[crimson cypress]

and the fact you need to build it with an adaptability item to get the full use

it's not that much for how the item is supposed to be used**

at least, it's not enough to warrant the item being three point five agility

[fleet berry]

Valid argument, considering that the most often item it was paired is duskroot

And had that item not exist idt itll be used

[glossy wraith]

Honestly, adaptability is used completely incorrectly

[crimson cypress]

idk why eclipse stream got adaptability

when does inferno need adaptability

[forest rune]

the item that also gets nerfed every 2 balance patches

[crimson cypress]

darkstar and duskroot taking turns on small increment nerfs

[fleet berry]

The item were designed one for another on release

And even still one makes up for the weakness of the other

[crimson cypress]

darkstar only works when paired with duskroot

[cosmic hill]

aggripa

[crimson cypress]

which is one way to go about an item I guess

because I need poise temp ethereal and steadfast on 7.5 agility

[void wadi]

aggrippa is so odd

its like

the most overstatted understatted item ever

[fleet berry]

It only works for it but it was also meant for it

[cosmic hill]

its a ssage build

[crimson cypress]

ssage 🥺

[fleet berry]

Makes me wonder if it was duskroots fault and not darkstar

[cosmic hill]

its like 180% damage before stamina 6

[crimson cypress]

how are you gonna shoot duskroot

[solid stirrup]

Honestly what would go wrong if we just put adaptability on like 10 items at random

[amber geode]

-10 atk spd

[crimson cypress]

lord no

[void wadi]

they're all offhand shields and get reduced budget to compensate

[fleet berry]

Same way as you would nerf by .5 agil, 5% atks nerf

[void wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/monkeys-paw-paw-monkey-gif-17535679

[gaunt mountain]

From what i can tell, duskroot has had one minor nerf in November 2024 after it got a soft rework in September 2024 and that's it. (Before that it was buffed in 2023 but too long ago)

hardly what i'd call being "continuously nerfed"

darkstar also hasn't been nerfed... ever till today. you could argue it's fire fragility removal was a nerf but its a soft rework and at most a small nerf.

[crimson cypress]

I think moving 1 agility from dusk to dark makes sense

[void wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/jimmy-butler-jimmy-butler-paper-confused-gif-14478007832172093541

[crimson cypress]

wasn't 5.5 agility and now it's 3.5

[gaunt mountain]

yes, but it had fire fragility 2 removed so you no longer explode from blaze fireballs

is it a nerf? still yes but it's not like it's just been shredded

[crimson cypress]

fire fragility 2 was like nothing

[glossy wraith]

fire fragility 2 was making people explode from blaze fireballs?

[void wadi]

i suspect it also came from the infernal rework

[gaunt mountain]

i dunno, too long ago to remember

[glossy wraith]

so it lost 2 agility for 2 fire protection, basically?

Thats an insane nerf

Fire protection is not worth 1 agility

its like .25 of an agility.
Give me my fire protection 8.

[spark iron]

the sept. '24 "rework" was a nerf afaik

cause swind 2 > 2 agility

[crimson cypress]

duskroot also had a +2 agility -2 second wind rework

which is mostly a nerf

[fleet berry]

Arguably a buff on other classes?

Idk i only play bers and guar guar

[glossy wraith]

second wind is worth like 2.5 armor/agil so yeah thats a -3 armor agil basically

[crimson cypress]

November 2024 is not that long ago when you realize content freeze

[fleet berry]

SOMEONE FACT CHECK ME !

[spark iron]

always a nerf universally

[fleet berry]

How

[spark iron]

second wind is a perma situational

(are we talking about swind 2 -> 2 agi?)

[fleet berry]

If a class rely on sustenance would it not suck

[cosmic hill]

ssage became significantly less funny when sw got removed

[fleet berry]

Oops i meant saturation

[bronze cloud]

it also got 5% attack speed for it

[glossy wraith]

in 1 patch the pair of items lost 4.5 agility for 5% attack speed 🔥

[crimson cypress]

and then immediately lost it

I think

[cosmic hill]

idk i think i made a fuckass melee prot 10 build with new duskroot

[crimson cypress]

+5% and then like 2 months later it got -5%

[bronze cloud]

well ye, as did every single other attack speed item

[crimson cypress]

I mean duskroot right now is fine, I just don't know why you'd go at darkstar

[fleet sage]

It's existance is purely justified for one armor piece
Hexfall armor boots.
-5% max hp is more tolerable than -25%

[crimson cypress]

especially when there's only two choices for attack damage chestplate agility

which both got shot this balance

[fleet sage]

Can send you my warrior build with those 2 later if you want

[glossy wraith]

To be fair, it existed for like a year before hexfall unusable. And honestly the pairing is still quite bad in my opinion.

[fleet berry]

Ex warden in shambles

[bronze cloud]

soo what exactly is the argument against the darkstar nerf?

other than people saying "oh look the agility is low"

[glossy wraith]

Nothing else is getting buffed so the game overall feels worse with no compensation.

Its mindless nerfs with little thought behind them

Seemingly.

[fleet sage]

It was too good because other pieces are bad so it was shot, in short

[spark iron]

it was too good because there aren't other pieces, so it was shot

[fleet berry]

Any ex warden ruins fans

[crimson cypress]

my question is more like "what other items do you want us to use if you're nerfing both options?"

[crimson cypress]

that's not real

[glossy wraith]

"use armor" 🔥

[fleet berry]

Crazy

Stamina 4 bunch of prots, decent agil and atks and yet AND YET

[cosmic hill]

might pair well with aggripa ngl

[amber geode]

half those prots are USELESS!!!

[glossy wraith]

but clearly users get blown up by blazes

[crimson cypress]

what is this aggripa love

[cosmic hill]

nvm the base ehp is ass

sentenced to darkstar

[crimson cypress]

not anymore buckster

[fleet berry]

Magi prot blast prot is good !!!

Any... Bismuth mask users

[crimson cypress]

ancient item

I can tell you about 2 people have paired bismuth and ex warden

[amber geode]

most of bismuth mask usage rate is prolly people grabbing it for a second cuz it makes a decent ish vanity

actually it saw use in thorns cleric

like a year ago

[bronze cloud]

If this is all the case, would you after the shield nerf consider using a non shield offhand item?

[glossy wraith]

That.. isnt the point.

Why even have shields in the game if all of them are not viable?

I want a shield.

[void wadi]

what is the point of this question

i want the shield

there is a specific reason i want the shield

also, if you have to ask "because these items are all so fucking bad, you'd rather stop playing the way you want to"
there's something wrong here.

[bronze cloud]

From the perspective of the balance team, the 2 shields were offhand items that are too strong. So they naturally nerfed them to bring them more in line with the rest of the shields. What I'm wondering is if, now that the 2 items are more balanced proportionally to the other shields, would you switch to a non shield offhand or not.

[void wadi]

No

[void wadi]

"balanced proportionally to the other shields"
(the ceiling has gone down and the rest of the shields are still ass)

monumental balance accomplishment

[bronze cloud]

Not exactly saying all the other shields are not understatted or in a balanced state, but what is the issue with the shields being nerfed if you won't even consider using a non shield offhand ( other than you feeling weaker )

[void wadi]

Because i have to grin and fucking bear it.

Nothing else in the game provides the bruiser playstyle i enjoy playing without a shield existing in my offhand. Or log. If Brute Force worked on log.

[bronze cloud]

In what way does it enable a bruiser playstyle? And would Adanartis for instance not enable that as well?

[void wadi]

adanartis cannot block or "parry" melee attacks

i cannot strategically use my block to parry a nasty arcanic spell coming my way

last time a shield was straight up buffed was on 7/18/24, by the way.
#change-logs message

[crimson cypress]

Yeah idk where u're getting at

[void wadi]

remnants gained one stamina level.

it has been 294 days since any region 3 offhand shield has recieved a flat out buff. (not a rework)

[crimson cypress]

"it's balanced proportionally to other shields"
"the other shields are still understated"

[void wadi]

EX Shimmering Veil (M4) : +12% -> 0% Speed, +20% -> +15% Attack Speed

[crimson cypress]

The whole point is to have offhand shields be a playable viable option, not shoot it until its so bad players would rather quit or use an offhand sword

[void wadi]

i'm gonna go write a more constructive post on something else so i can cool off lol

[ivory creek]

99% sure bf works on log but it's WM and GB that don't

[void wadi]

yes sorry WM

my fault gang

[glossy wraith]

clearly the solution is to logify the whole warrior community 🔥 add shields to WM and GB

[void wadi]

i would be fine with this

i would play loggior

[crimson cypress]

Yeah me as well

But I think it's balanced around that

"let's make an item no class can fully utilize 🔥"

[river sorrel]

Yes, unless hexfall relies on it

Maybe a17 is too hard without pureshard but you also can’t lootrun that anymore so

[bronze cloud]

All shields have a lower budget compared to non shield offhands, mainly because the mechanic all shields have take's up a certain budget of stats. If the shield tax doesn't exist, then naturally all shields are just better compared to every other offhand.
In a less extreme example, what if shield tax was then -1 agility/armor but everyone still used shields. Would it then not be fair to readjust the shield tax to maybe something like -1.5 or even -2. The goal would be to balance shields so that they don't outshine other non-shield options.

And if we now solely look within the confines of shield items in this hypothetical case where shield tax goes from -1 to -2:

• If all shields are balanced in a completely fair manor, then they would all be nerfed by -1
• If there's understatted shields and overstatted shields, then naturally the overstatted shields will be nerfed by -1
  In this case, all that changes is that the overstatted shields are adjusted to be more in line with the understatted shields, in turn opening up opportunities for people to use non-shield offhands AND for people to discuss about the shield tax and whether it is too high or too low ( you've already answered that the shield tax is fine in its current state, since you'd always use a shield over a non-shield ).

[bronze cloud]

In context with the current balance patch, IF for some reason everyone complained about the 2 overstatted shields being nerfed but no one actually switching to non-shield offhand options ( people switching to other shields is irrelevant ) . Then their complaints are really just "I don't want the balance patch to make me weaker" and they should be arguing whether the game is getting too hard or not.

[spark iron]

the shield tax can be unpleasant and unfun but still in some way “worth” paying
“having a shield” is not a straightforward stat buff, it is a mechanic on a different dimension which affects different players disproportionately (high ping players require a shield far more than low ping players do)

a comparative example would be to have a food stall increase its prices by 100% with no compensatory increase in quality.

am i gonna buy food from them? yeah. i gotta eat. but am i gonna be happy about it? no. is it fair? also no

[bronze cloud]

No, a comparative example would be that food stall having everything at half price compared to its competitors and then it increasing its prices by 100%

[pallid sentinel]

idk to me this just says that tm has a lower standard for items
You would argue A is unusable and tm would argue A is how the game is supposed to be

[spark iron]

shields are a different playstyle from non shields, one which i believe deserves to exist in monumenta, so going the route of “we will nerf shields until we see non shield offhands seeing more use” feels like “you aren’t supposed to play the game this way, you need to play it that way instead”

and that feels bad because you’ve shrunk the possibility space of gameplay, without any expansion - so the game is less fun

[marble rover]

A comparative example is me going to a food stall and buying a burrito
mmm

[spark iron]

mmmm

[spark iron]

the shield offers a playstyle that (TMK) cannot be obtained via anything else, which certain classes rely on (mscout needs a shield to block damage since it has no DR and poor sustain)

so in the metaphor i would say that there are other food stalls but they all have gluten in their food, and i am allergic to gluten, and so it sucks shit that my one option went up by 100% with no increase of quality on my end

[amber canyon]

is this still going on what the fungu

[pallid sentinel]

We love arguing

[spark iron]

you can’t tell me “go eat somewhere else if you hate these prices so much” because i can’t

[crimson cypress]

this food analogy is making me hungry

[spark iron]

i just ate sorgy

[lament sparrow]

Out of curiosity do you guys have any rework ideas for some of the shields that you'd like to see

I'm interesting in doing some reworking

[spark iron]

defiled carving numbers buff OR you can switch it off being a shield

defiled + norvigut looks juicy but is blocked by “defiled has shield tax AND norvigut interaction with shields is jank asf”

[lament sparrow]

Base item change mmmm

[spark iron]

EX Shimmering Veil could have its situ moved off Cloaked

[lament sparrow]

But changing to mainhand is also an option for some

Iridium bulwark is kind of Very dominant

[spark iron]

i don’t really know what the item design was in R1

[patent axle]

Or u can make it a pure proj dmg shield thay work well with qd

Atk + proj just won't work

[spark iron]

mainhand shield is one of the few places where i would say the actual solution is just shoot the overperformer

[marble rover]

I'd like a rework that makes iridium not bis in r1 and r2

[patent axle]

Or u know, we can have a inferno shield

[pallid sentinel]

Shield with high defense and a ton of projectile fragility
You better block that arrow!

[patent axle]

lol

[spark iron]

Silver Heart suffers from its budget going into weird prots?

[marble rover]

oh boy I sure hope there isn't a magic projectile to disable my shie

[spark iron]

i don’t know what to do with it, but it’s not in a good place

if you moved the prot to melee it might be better but… eugh.

[lament sparrow]

Feel free to suggest new shield-unique enchants because I am all for those

[spark iron]

oh!

[lament sparrow]

But have no ideas atm

[marble rover]

allows things requiring you to get hit enchantments to work with shield block enchantment

so ethereal, thorns, sanctified armor

and also vengeful and all that but who cares

[pallid sentinel]

That sounds like something is going to exploit it

[marble rover]

jokes aside uh
some perfect parry enchantment

but your shield gets put on cooldown upon use so you cant just right click spam

[glossy wraith]

a simple enchant that does a similar effect to sturdy (like nutriment is to sustenence).

[spark iron]

EX Shimmering Veil gets a new enchantment:

Veiltorn 5

Veiltorn X: This shield has X charges of Block. Blocking once consumes one charge. When out of charges, your shield is disabled. Charges regenerate once every 3 seconds (whatever)
Your shield is not disabled on magic or axe attacks.

the idea is that instead of a shield which actually blocks attacks directly

it just eats the attacks instead

so it isn’t affected by things which would normally break shield

[glossy wraith]

You could also do a curse that makes the cooldown longer when blocking a big attack

(so, like anemia)

[trim flame]

i really appreciate these perspectives- actually intelligent points that break down the logic well

[marble rover]

okay then it should only work on tcleric problem solved

Also mycelian cap is kinda useless

Melee prot on a shield

Low stats outside of that

[trim flame]

i think in a vacuum i can't really agree with the sentiment of "instead of nerfing x thing, just buff everything else to be as good" because using this as a general standard of balance would continue to power-creep the game further out of the developer's vision in a lot of cases

of course its a bit more nuanced when you go dive into specific changes and how they maybe can be done in a better way that doesn't contradict the rest of the game

[pallid sentinel]

this would apply to some previous patches but statistically this patch does have a lot more nerfs than buffs

[dry swan]

can we destigmatize nerfing shit please

[glossy wraith]

A curse that makes you lose DR the longer you hold your shield, and once the DR loss reaches a certain point, the shield autobreaks.
But it has higher budget so likely break resistance and decent other stats.

[trim flame]

i wont deny that like yeah sure they have some silly changes

like some things probably dont deserve it

[glossy wraith]

please read my big rant above about nerfing things.
this is very blind to the real issues

[dry swan]

people will see about some of the stuff like -0.5 Agility on Aether Threads and fucking BLOW UP about it

[trim flame]

but i'd rather see arguments against such things lean into balance inconsistency over players trying to impose what they perceive as "fun"

[bronze cloud]

This applies to all balancing, anything being nerfed will feel bad. And it essentially does the opposite of "shrinking possible space of gameplay" considering it opens up more room for non-shield use ( it's just balance ).

[dry swan]

can you link it I can't find it

[trim flame]

indeed restriction can breed creativity in cases

[dry swan]

mscr asked me whether he should use a Lime Rare or an Overworld Rare on his R2 bers build and that really spoke to me

said things like "the fuck"

[glossy wraith]

#1369888195554185217 message

[dry swan]

fair enough, though it sets up other questions to be asked

[trim flame]

i think in fairness there is at least a vocal minority of players who are very much "on sight" when nerfs occur when often these changes aren't as crazy as they're made out to be

[dry swan]

like the notorious "How did we get here"

[trim flame]

my point is that it is a lot more complicated than just "buff everything else" sometimes

[dry swan]

damage pieces are being nerfed, but their necessity in the meta is unchanged

[glossy wraith]

Its not about these changes being crazy by themselves.
Its the knowledge that these changes are being made instead of ones that would fix the underlying problem behind the current game balance.

[ivory creek]

What lime rare huh

I was just gonna use wrath of the mountains

[dry swan]

Silverweight Axe

[ivory creek]

Lmao

[dry swan]

Anyway, damage being the most important that it's ever been in buildmaking is also an issue

[trim flame]

yea and in that sense it is a lot more valid that is exactly what i do like to see discussion about

[glossy wraith]

also @dry swan the immediate message i sent after that one is the crux of my rant

[trim flame]

my whole comment was more in reference to vocal players

[glossy wraith]

if you scroll past zig's first reply

[glossy wraith]

Thats what ive been doing! see the linked message and the messages below.

[dry swan]

oh believe me I also hate this game's balance direction

[trim flame]

yea i saw don't worry

[marble rover]

don't worry, nerfs will no longer happen to items. Instead, we will apply increasing amounts of dr to mobs

[dry swan]

should a standard zombie really have 156 hp

and deal 2 maybe 3 damage

[marble rover]

yes I love my kill or be killed meta 🫡

[dry swan]

also should classes have access to the shit that they do

I see somebody jump in with 360 Volley point blank onto a lethal elite and they win the interaction

[trim flame]

kinda ties into a discussion about class identity and player power as a whole

[dry swan]

Alchemist got hit hard and I think it kind of deserved it because what nobody realised post AA rework is that Alchemist mobility got buffed so fucking hard I'd argue it's the strongest buff a class has ever received

[marble rover]

every class in an mmo should die in three hits and kill mobs in one, what's wrong

[glossy wraith]

Class balance is quite hard when the item options are so limited

[dry swan]

eh not really

[trim flame]

yea idk if i agree

i think the classes serve as the core foundation for item design

[marble rover]

class balance is easier if item options are limited because then it's easier to assess the strength of a class by just using a meta build

[trim flame]

and if anything i'd say its the other way around

[dry swan]

I'd argue class balance makes item balance difficult, which is apparent in the current game state

[trim flame]

this ^

[woeful shell]

thorns/kb applied to mob on block

something something "but you could just hold it up forever and just have it die" i mean sure but you can hold iridium up until you get back to full anyway

[marble rover]

god forbid a class take a lot of hits and kill mobs through retribution damage

[dry swan]

like it's painfully apparent when Berserker builds run as low as +60% damage but there's a META RELEVANT Assassin build with +170% (not a boss dps build, a clearing build)

[woeful shell]

ALSO. please make shields block fire attacks properly

[glossy wraith]

i was more meaning for the non-melee classes

[woeful shell]

if you block a flame arrow you still get set on fire and it's really noticeable when fighting 4stack colo

[trim flame]

for real warrior is so tanky because the base class enables so much damage output not even because it has defense in its kit

[glossy wraith]

Hard to tell if mage is weak or if the magic gear options are.

[marble rover]

do this but only for shields that aren't wooden in lore

if they are wooden they shatter 3 within ten seconds

[dry swan]

Mage is the most honest nonmelee which leans into it feeling weak in R3

can't do shit like Shaman where you kill a Twisted in 3 seconds 80 blocks away

or Alchemist where you are the most evasive mf on the planet with a nuke gun

Mage still plays by some semblance of the rules (ignore Prismatic Shield)

actually don't ignore Prismatic, it's on every Arcanist build

it's like Mage's VC for R3

[marble rover]

the world if prismatic was not reset by sages insight

[dry swan]

very few people have success dropping it

[marble rover]

and instead the rest of the class was buffed

[glossy wraith]

me! im the arcanist who doesnt reset prismatic

[dry swan]

GB 25 + 5 Melee damage hitting 3 mobs vs Bodkin dealing 14 damage to one enemy on an 18 second cooldown

Assassin is supposed to be more damage oriented guys that's why the build features +170% attack damage!

[trim flame]

brute force:

[pallid sentinel]

if not it started with like 75% the potion damage compared to now
AA is 250% I think
on 3 seconds
it's wild looking back at it
well we don't have brine at that time but still

[dry swan]

clearly there's no base class balance issues at all!

[trim flame]

frenzy:

wm:

[marble rover]

Sure is a good thing that glorious battle has a tricky condition to activate of hitting a mob with an aoe ability, requiring you to save your other spec skills or hit someone with

they're what

[trim flame]

6 second cooldown almost fully safe damage nuke on a tank class

[dry swan]

Berserker is literally Meta Knight like wtf

Shuttle Loop

it's actually over

GB is Tornado

but guys trust me Assassin is viable because once you bandaid the class being bad at its own job you get 500 years of stealth through charm power so your class's inherent balance flaws never reveal themselves AND you are overpowered in clear!

[marble rover]

give rogue dpact!!!!!!

[trim flame]

assassin being good really relies entirely on an aspect of the game that is hard to quantify

[marble rover]

it's literally what the class is!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dry swan]

p sure you can still get literal infinite Stealth in Zenith with a proper set up

[marble rover]

it could replace smokescreen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dry swan]

and you can stockpile like 5 minutes of Stealth by the time you hit Vesp

at least I did it pre Dew patch

REALLY hope a class balance sweep comes though

it would do wonders for the game

[trim flame]

ngl even guardian atp is pretty um

whats the word?

[dry swan]

op?

overbearing?

[trim flame]

like r3 guardian getting goofy

[dry swan]

right Brig build is unkillable

[fleet berry]

Its more equal than others

[dry swan]

unless you get hit with an antiheal and go afk

mfw 7 absorption every 4.5 seconds because I asked nicely

[trim flame]

you can run 95% dr build and still crit for more than 170% damage assassin bmb

like??

[fleet berry]

Brute force stacking on guardian is pretty ridiculous

[dry swan]

LMAO get fucked Assassin

[trim flame]

brute force on guardian is super overcentralized

like shield bash?

[fleet berry]

Absorption is also pretty something burger

[trim flame]

really obsolete atp

like the class can build obscene levels of defense and still wipe the floor

and its kinda cool to see it come this far

but idk

[dry swan]

BF enhancement might be like AS enhancement where fun gave it balance immunity

extra waves are kinda ???

[trim flame]

its like an r3 brute force thing

its weird too because they nerfed pressure guantlet

so its basically just a worse version of distant force

the brute force calculation changes really made it nuclear

[dry swan]

but yeah uhhh wish game was balanced

[marble rover]

why didn't the devs just make the game balanced from the start

[dry swan]

wish we could actually have a true evaluation of class power and rebalance it instead of changes that think they solve the issue

[void wadi]

oh so you are worried about dupe bugs. why not just be careful enough while coding to make sure not to introduce them

[dry swan]

unironically rule of cool in some cases

Rocket Boots got what like 2 buffs because people wanted to use it and it was awesome

[marble rover]

me when every berserker is forced to use the funny boots charm because the class is so poorly designed and unfun to use without it

[dry swan]

WRONG GB 2 Rampage 2 is viable

and fun

[fleet berry]

Wrong

Base mslam is actually really lame

But that might be because of rocket boots disorienting my expectations of it

Especially the range in r2

[marble rover]

GB 2 Rampage 2
look inside
guardian without the absorption

[dry swan]

Brawl Meta Knight player playing Smash 4 for the first time

[fleet berry]

Real

[dry swan]

aw hell naw bruh ain't no way you treading over GB Rampage output

the mobs DIE

[fleet berry]

Idk mslam range in r2 (and especially mslam 1) is really small

[dry swan]

they fucking DIE

and you get healing instead of absorption

[fleet berry]

I would exchange dmg for range

[dry swan]

which means different build accessibility

[marble rover]

actually it's both of the funny boots charms isn't it

mslam just sucks without either

[trim flame]

oh yeah ill attest as well

gb ramp 2 in r3

is insane

[marble rover]

so you're forced to use 7 cp or whatever to even use the skill

ill take your words for it but that sounds like just a lot of critting mobs and sometimes using abilities when you get a stack occasionally

[fleet berry]

Gb ramp 2 is just transcending berserker slop as we know it

It skips the middle man of mslamming

[trim flame]

berserker when it actually works for its resources and plays like a berserker?

[fleet berry]

Straight to slopping

[trim flame]

peak?

[dry swan]

it's R3 there will be enough mobs for stacks

[trim flame]

"works" literally 1 crit

[dry swan]

hey I earned that crit

[marble rover]

that's true

[trim flame]

but i mean engaging in melee is already saying more than a lot of playstyles in this game

[dry swan]

did you see that mob 33 blocks away?

[dry swan]

somehow my ability to compare Monumenta to Hypixel Skyblock gets better and better as the metas get more and more related

R3 release was like Floor 7 release

soon the first Hype dropped (Stamina Bers)(

[marble rover]

can we give rogue aim assist and melee range

[dry swan]

all downhill from there

melee becomes less relevant as more playstyles with lower engagement for output are released

[marble rover]

it's just like my hypixel skyblocks

[dry swan]

until melee becomes exclusive to slayer content (the classes that literally have to melee like Guardian and Rogue to even play the game)

[trim flame]

yeah i've felt this for a while

its quite sad

[dry swan]

Zenith is like the false future reality warning us of the dangers of this balance philosophy reaching its peak

[trim flame]

im okay with some playstyles being mechanically more difficult to use than others (even retaining the same balance)

but its like at a point where engaging in melee is actually asking a lot with todays standards

[fleet berry]

It went downhill when gorpea dropped the civic dagger berserker gameplay

[trim flame]

why do that when alch can press q and win the encounter instantly

[dry swan]

Melee is entirely eclipsed until you have one specific usecase for it that isn't an active detriment (Master mode Mage Beam dealing higher melee damage than Berserker)

[trim flame]

why do this when meteor slam is free low cooldown setup to wipe a crowd

[dry swan]

run the floor with Terminators (Flamecaller vomit with Detonation abuse)

[fleet berry]

Maybe they were wise in soft capping mslam damage

[trim flame]

why do anything that encourages interacting and engaging with combat instead of blatantly overpowering everything

[dry swan]

do you want the civit dagger I still have it

[marble rover]

it's not like mslam does anything anyways unless you do some goofy stuff

[fleet berry]

Dum dum

[marble rover]

insert iota kill gif here

[trim flame]

lmao

[fleet berry]

Id do it with Pragmatism if I could

Its so funny that this existed during reckless swing too

Self repeating prophecy

[dry swan]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/971764618949173268/1191519536457994281/big_shoe_lmfao.gif

[trim flame]

the signs were there from the beginning

i love that the standards of balance have changed so much that something like stacking multiple instances of GB into an attack was considered worthy of nerfs

back when it was entirely single target

[dry swan]

Reckless Swing walked so that Meteor Slam could reference Super Mario without getting a cease and desist letter from Nintendo

[dry swan]

yeah I miss this kind of strictness

sure it might've had side effects limiting some fun but it gave really good security for the game

classes were truly equal

[marble rover]

one day we will get an actual HP-centric class

[dry swan]

Fallen player spotted, I hate you.

[marble rover]

i simply like hp consumption builds in games

[dry swan]

Fallen players when they can't scream loudly and then throw 500 punches absentmindedly to solve all of their problems

[fleet sage]

I love low hp gameplay

[marble rover]

[dry swan]

make hp gameplay that's actually good and I'll support it

but Fallen is the antithesis of well designed hp class

[fleet sage]

there's something sickenignly fun about being in brink of death and completely destroying everything
I miss when taboo drained HP.....

[fleet berry]

Old gb was so weird

Back when it didnt have downward momentum

[trim flame]

honestly i dont remember that

[fleet berry]

I geniunely thought gb mslam users were delusional

[trim flame]

i remember the momentum used to be like insane

[marble rover]

honestly I've never played it past level 80 so idk how it feels at level 105

[trim flame]

you could fly across the entire dungeon with 2 charges

[fleet sage]

then got shot and the dark days of Depressing Battle happened

[marble rover]

maybe ill make an hp-consume monumenta class thing

[trim flame]

the dark days?

that was on release

[fleet sage]

twas funny

[fleet berry]

I remember when gb had passive damage based on mob aggro

[trim flame]

mhmm

[dry swan]

You War Scream to turn it on > you spellspam the boss while holding S and it dies > if it doesn't die, turn it off and wait until you're full health
Because of shit like range aspects and walkspeed, you will never die. Over 75% of the ability tree also has nodes that are just "deal more damage" reworded

[void wadi]

• Reckless Swing (replaces Growing Rage): passively, every 4 health you fall below max health, gain +5% / +10% damage (capped at +25% / +50%). Sneak left click without hitting a mob to deal 12 / 24 damage in a 3 block radius, while also taking 4 health of damage (bypasses all damage resistances and absorption)

[fleet sage]

bring back old taboo but make it only drain you to like 30% hp so that taboo players don't cry

[fleet berry]

Ouufgh and old reckless passive too

Missing 4 FLAT hp u gain extra damage...

Le encouraging... health stack?

[fleet sage]

Health stack will never be missed

[marble rover]

me when the ability just has a 2x mult from level 1 to level 2 for some reason

[fleet berry]

WHAT HAVE I LOST THROUGHOUT THE YEAARSSS

[dry swan]

eternal and I running the forbidden bloodbank with Auric Tiara

genuinely the most fun I've had

[fleet berry]

The fucking cleric health stack bers combo

I ran bers with a shit ton of sustenance and i basically won the game

[dry swan]

taking my pet t-rex for a walk through the dungeon

[trim flame]

the incident

[fleet berry]

Pragmatism Oh Pragmatism

[marble rover]

that's honestly a good question
is encouraging health stack on an HP-centric class a good thing, or should it only be %

[dry swan]

depends on the design

[marble rover]

I think it's a good thing for scaling, and some things can dual scale and take the higher version (% vs flat)

[fleet berry]

I really liked reckless swing where it took flat hp, but healing was based on max%

[fleet berry]

Made silly moments like this

But in modern monu i cant tell if that would be healthy or not

[quiet orbit]

Might someone link me to a reply (if one exists) as to why arcane strike u was nerfed?

Arcane strike nerf makes no sense, and the enhancement nerf makes even less sense. Literally nobody would ever use it without heavily investing into arcane strike and practically making a melee mage and melee mage is absolute ass anyway so why would it warrant a nerf

[glossy wraith]

uh

arcane strike got a pure buff

[marble rover]

looks like it was just moved so it scales on base

and by a large amount at that

like, it just has to be a 14 damage weapon or higher to be a buff

[quiet orbit]

Still why nerf the enhancement; it was never op nor even good to begin with
Maybe a base buff would make pure arcane strike builds at least remotely viable

[glossy wraith]

is also a pure buff on non (u) usage

[glossy wraith]

because 7 +20% of your attack damage * 140% is too good. ?

[quiet orbit]

I'm talking about theoretical pure arcane strike usage

[marble rover]

i don't think mage is a very pure-single skill class

[quiet orbit]

Is it though?.. it's still overshadowed by other enhancements

[glossy wraith]

also, as dumping said, its now stronger if your base attack damage is 14 or higher

go look at the sword wand base damage, i believe they are 16

[marble rover]

so buffing the base where most people probably have it is better

overall it is a buff 100%

also it's only down by 25% on enhance

s'not like it's dead

[quiet orbit]

like, 140% sounds op on paper but i guarantee you melee mage would still be a meme

i dont see why the meme cant be a little decent

[marble rover]

mate it was buffed

[cosmic hill]

luminous infusion has recieved a major rework

[quiet orbit]

... not really? base got buffed, enhancement got nerfed and while it does cancel out i don't see why the enhancement change has to be made

i never said melee mage was good to begin with, no, it's awful

if it stays the same it's awful

[marble rover]

it's not the same?? it even gets scaling now

like, does melee mage not literally want high base damage items?

this is like, the best thing to happen to it in a while

and also enhancements should not be that high of a boost to a single skill

even if it really needs it

because in that case, the base skill should be buffed instead

[plush wedge]

I believe tms ideal r3 player power level is a bit lower than the current real power level, so this might come up a lot if changes are made accordingly in the future. Ala "what do you mean you are nerfing my ability to leap into a crowd of max delve scaled mobs and obliterate them and heal from any damage from my sloppy play well before the next encounter?"

[quiet orbit]

want? maybe
but it only has thundering legacy which is 15.5 base and it's barely noticeable

[raw bobcat]

“Destigmatize nerfing shit” feels like a strawman to me idk

[plush wedge]

Nah

[dry swan]

better to believe that it's stigmatized than the alternatives at least

the other answers would imply incompetence

whether that's true or not is whatever

[raw bobcat]

?

[dry swan]

if nerfs aren't stigmatized then TM has some other reason as to why balance is kept in this state

[plush wedge]

Helldivers 2 went through the same thing where people bitched about everything being nerfed. They listened and now the game is easier at difficulty 10 than on-release difficulty 9 which is weird because there's like 10 whole difficulties and for some reason the last one is not very hard at all

[dry swan]

whether that is due to ignorance or willingly keeping it in a state that has had the community constantly complaining signaling incompetence

[plush wedge]

Me when r3 is genuinely way too easy still

[dry swan]

or unwillingness to act/carry out changes, again incompetence

[raw bobcat]

Idk if its my grasp of the english language failing me or what but I’m completely failing to understand what you just said

[marble rover]

there's a thing called caution, maybe they just don't want to do wide sweeping changes at once

[dry swan]

me personally I could see myself hesitant to push a change because my community has contextualized the concept of nerfing as bad rather than necessary

furthermore if I separate making a fun game and making a balanced game it ends up worse in both ways

[amber geode]

I dont think thats true at all tbh

[dry swan]

true, but it has been literal years

[amber geode]

no one complains about deserved nerfs

like urn nerf

or the first vinelash nerf

[dry swan]

well then what is deserved

there's the problem

[amber geode]

was the 3rd or 4th nerf in a row really necessary

[dry swan]

what if I have a different establishment for deserved nerfs

[raw bobcat]

Ok but this isnt what’s happening here

[dry swan]

it is merely an observation made

[amber geode]

anything that makes sense

[dry swan]

I did not data the shit out of it

[fleet berry]

There has been nerf that people are content with, problem is that for the most part these items are often egregious that it overshadows every other item

[dry swan]

what makes sense

[fleet berry]

Vedhas having 25 base is expected to be nerfed, everyone saw how strong it was and it was gross

[amber geode]

a nerf with a good reason behind it and one that actually fixes the problem

[raw bobcat]

I’ll use pickaxes as an example since that’s probably the most egregious case this patch

[fleet berry]

No one wants Remnants nerfed, despite placing such a high bar as a shield because of its allocated budget

[raw bobcat]

The stated reason for them being nerfed is they were “too powerful for in combat applications”

[amber geode]

yeah because most other shields are dookie

[marble rover]

Don't worry I have a solution just give everyone mining fatigue in combat

[raw bobcat]

Which.. fine? If pickaxes are too powerful, nerf the combat power of pickaxes ok

[plush wedge]

The difference between people seeing the current power level as balanced versus the people who want difficulty to skyrocket in r3 🔥
Technically both are dissatisfied with the nerfs here. I think they are too milquetoast and not systematic enough

[amber geode]

even if remnants gets nerfed youre still coping with remnants

[trim flame]

pretty good way to put it

[raw bobcat]

Except they also collateral damage nerfed pickaxes out of combat too

Which was not stated to be an issue

So you’ve lumped a “deserved” nerf with an “undeserved” nerf, by their given reasons

[fleet berry]

This is why TM introduced Twisted 2

Powercreep the powercreepers

[plush wedge]

True

[fleet berry]

Mobs on the kill or be killed mentality

[amber geode]

imo the only classes that are unbalanced right now are warrior and shaman so idk what youre talking about

[fleet berry]

DIE ONE THOUSAND TIMES [💀]

[raw bobcat]

Similarly, haste got shot because it was too powerful for spawner rushing in content like cz, except again, that indiscriminately shot the overall mining speed of everything

[amber geode]

scouts forced to run bis rogues forced to run bis mage is balanced warlock kinda sucks clerics aight ig alch is also pretty much bis rn too

[marble rover]

Once again the solution is just giving everyone mining fatigue when they shouldn't be mining spawners, simple

[amber geode]

theres nothing that can really rush in point blank and suffer no consequences for misplays apart from shaman and warrior

[raw bobcat]

My complaint in this situation is, they nerfed something for a given reason… and then went and also nerfed a bunch of things adjacent to it that were unrelated because the nerf was so hamfisted?

“Collateral damage nerf” is the term i like to use

I would consider those undeserved personally

[plush wedge]

Being forced to run something doesn't mean anything if it is also highly effective anyways

[timber narwhal]

Exactly my issue with it, R1 and R2 catchin strays from these alch nerfs fr

[amber geode]

the problem is that its only effective when youre in bis

[raw bobcat]

Alch is another example this patch

[plush wedge]

Talking in circles now

[amber geode]

and then you get folded by a single misplay so its still balanced to some extent

[raw bobcat]

Was r1 and r2 alch actually causing issues? Why did their dmg get nerfed for r3 being too strong

[timber narwhal]

R1 alch is not even in a playable spot now after artillery nerf

[inner raptor]

again, i think there would be way less dissatisfaction if ppl were given any reason at all for why things were nerfed, i don't think we've even got a word from a dev for most why things were nerfed, leading people to just speculating why

[amber geode]

if I ran in to point blank volley on a starpoint elite in bis scout I'd get mogged

[timber narwhal]

R2 is fine, but still hurts

[plush wedge]

Yes I agree with this here. I want r3 nuked but r1 and r2 mostly unscathed

[amber geode]

also scouts just not that strong anymore after the sharpshooter nerf

[marble rover]

ranged player with no ehp surprised when they cannot go into melee range

[plush wedge]

Me when classes have strengths and weaknesses

[timber narwhal]

And I think the issue is just lack of communication and testing. I dont blame them not many ppl run alch in R2 from what I see atm, and even less in R1

But the small crowd of R1/R2 alch enjoyers kinda got nerfed more than r3 besides the charm nerf

[amber geode]

.

I was referring to this

[plush wedge]

Then reply message to it

[amber geode]

idk I feel like youre exaggerating r3 player strength

[plush wedge]

I think it's still true in 25pt but (yes here we go) the elites only threaten when it's 65pt

[raw bobcat]

I dont have anything to say about what a “deserved” nerf would be, because I dont know the answer to that

[plush wedge]

R3 players are leaps and bounds stronger against enemies and delve points compared to r1 and r2

[amber geode]

doesnt mob scaling stop at 25pt anyway

[raw bobcat]

But I think it wouldnt be an unreasonable claim that getting nerfed despite causing no problems just for being tangeantly related to something that is causing problems is a good candidate for an “undeserved” nerf

[plush wedge]

Modifiers do things too

I don't get your point

[glossy wraith]

Only loot scaling stops at 25pts.

[plush wedge]

Are you trying to say that 65pt is comparable to 25pt?

[amber geode]

the elites themselves are threatening stat wise is what im saying

[plush wedge]

Not at 25pt imo

[amber geode]

they have the same stats at 65

just more likely to get bs modifier interactions

[plush wedge]

Exactly

[dry swan]

I think the only R3 Elites that put on the pressure like in R1 and R2 are Lunacrest Captains and some of the Zenith elites

Captain because that thing is just overtuned and blows you up for fun, Zenith because they were designed to deal heavy damage

[plush wedge]

Because scouts anti elite options are on cd, things that create more elites make it perform worse. But baseline it always has enough to comfortably deal with them alone

This is assuming that ss nerf made it so it is no longer viable to use basic attacks to deal with them. This is the assumption I made when I completely dropped ss charms and the such from my hunter build post rework

[amber geode]

not really I'd say dreads are easier to deal with

[raw bobcat]

ss?

Oh sharp

[amber geode]

sharpshooter

[plush wedge]

Come to shadowcast bastille 65pt

[quiet orbit]

zenith elites try to do anything between one shotting and doing nothing at all challenge

[plush wedge]

I think the elites there are uniquely good against scout

[amber geode]

honestly I havent done bastille in like 8 months I dont even remember the elites

[quiet orbit]

its the uhh

[dry swan]

wish Zenith was more complex :(

[amber geode]

ive done it like 4 times ever

[quiet orbit]

red elite from mr that spawns a black one after death

[amber geode]

oh

[quiet orbit]

and some random ass golem that doesnt do anything

[amber geode]

yeah no I'd rather deal with dreads that guy is annoying

[plush wedge]

the black one perpetually tping behind you. It just so happens that it combined with legio/dread does make it hard to quarrel all the enemies into a kill zone

[quiet orbit]

the red and black one spawns a dread per stage so its 2x dreads which is funny

[plush wedge]

I considered that difficulty perfect. Too bad it was all the way up at 65pt and not 25pt.

[raw bobcat]

Separate from the issue of whether a nerf is deserved or not, i think ppl are also just kind of tired of so many of them in a row?

[amber geode]

you still use basic attacks for everything and sharpshooter charms are still the strongest

[quiet orbit]

dreads are like miles weaker than most elites tho so

[plush wedge]

oh that's disheartening to hear

[amber geode]

its just that its significantly weaker

[raw bobcat]

There’s not many carrots to go along with the sticks we’re being handed

[plush wedge]

even more nerfs needed then

[amber geode]

volleys good for crowds and when youre stuck in a bad spot I guess but I dont really see much use for it as an elite killer

[crimson cypress]

volley with that one gallery charm one shots elites

[void wadi]

tendon is shit now

[amber geode]

yeah but who uses tendon

[crimson cypress]

huh

what did they do to my boy tendon

[void wadi]

murdered

[crimson cypress]

how

[void wadi]

is not multiplicative anymore

[crimson cypress]

how bad is it

[void wadi]

so it adds like 2 dmg

[crimson cypress]

what

💔

[amber geode]

by this I mean I dont use this like specifically elites just big crowds

[plush wedge]

which spec

[amber geode]

pstrike on the other hand I use specifically for elites but its also just not that good and I could just shoot twice

hunter

[plush wedge]

crowds don't exist for me as hunter so I get volley for free against elites

[amber geode]

yeah but I'd rather just shoot once or twice more on elites unless theres a bunch of mobs already

[plush wedge]

where does your hunter struggle

[amber geode]

uhh

honestly its mostly just skill issue

I dont think the build itself struggles much

scout still having mscout skills is its main problem rn I think

and pstrikes kinda shit

[quiet orbit]

why is mscout like. a real thing

i dont particularly hate the playstyle or anything it's just

[amber geode]

its not

[quiet orbit]

monumenta has so many magic classes and so many melee classes

[amber geode]

not anymore

[quiet orbit]

and 1 (one) projectile class

why can not even the only projectile class be fully dedicated to projectiles

[plush wedge]

how many pts?

[amber geode]

if you're playing mscout after agility lost its damagd buff youre prolly just coping

[amber geode]

65

[plush wedge]

im trying to figure out if scout is even stronger than I consider it to be rn

hmm

[amber geode]

honestly I'd rather play arc than hunter it feels stronger

or elementalist

[quiet orbit]

there are still attempts to add melee to scout's kit and i wonder what kinda child trauma the guy who designed scout has with projectile weapons if they're not allowed to have at least 1 whole class

[amber geode]

errr

preferred alch too but now my artilleries do like 120 damage with 133% magic and brines so idk if alch even feels decent anymore

[quiet orbit]

how's hexfall alch dps

has anyone measured this

[marble rover]

[amber geode]

better than dshot hexbreaker but our hexbreaker comp was kinda cooked so we're gonna test again tomorrow

[quiet orbit]

better than hexbreaker is crazy work

weren't you the hexbreaker

[amber geode]

no czad

also not used to the class so theres that too

[fervent cove]

I think we can all read the "fuck you" between the lines

also yeah delete volley

[ebon charm]

Put me in coach

[fervent cove]

I do not see any real purpose behind the alch changes

besides the absolutely infernal hatred for the class

[ebon charm]

Where is this afformentioned shaman changes thread

[fervent cove]

shaman should be deleted

[ebon charm]

Shut

[fervent cove]

thats the change it needs

[hidden bridge]

its a fucking r1 item now

[marble rover]

no that's an r2 item

sob

[hidden bridge]

there is no way

[past lark]

Yeah but also I ironically feel safer on assassin than guardian for 65pt because you don’t get crit interrupted at all

[hidden bridge]

balance devs are NOT cooking

[past lark]

I think darkstar is fine getting nerfed but I would have preferred its damage to get slightly reduced instead

[dry swan]

foolish gorpea abusing stealth's lack of balancing

[steady rover]

And they are kinda costly 💔

Btw I think that discounting an opinion because it’s not delivered with proper grammar and spacing, and the upmost of sophistication is just an avoidance to the actual point being made.
Yeah someone is mad about something they are going to act upset. it’s not necessarily “mature” but it’s not a personal attack it’s an attack against something that someone did.

[sacred parcel]

darkstar making people explode from blaze fireballs is such a lie. no one ran it without duskroot and that had the exact amount of fire prot to cancel out the fragility

[steady rover]

If you as a designer of any type and cannot critically interpret feedback of this type, especially day one feedback like this, you just gotta.
Remember that people are less fiery does not equal they don’t care, they just don’t have the energy for it over trying to enjoy the game.

[dry swan]

dw eventually we'll get more than one proj magic class surely

[past lark]

Yeah I guess but it’s not really absurd that assassin can build so high damage with its current design which makes it kind of unique. Whether that’s an issue or not I don’t know

[dry swan]

the class shouldn't have to build like it does, it also shouldn't have so much stealth

for a strong single hit damage class, it has the lowest raw output of any melee class

[past lark]

You’re forced into it becuase of stealth being so powerful taking up so much of assassins kit

[dry swan]

if stealth durations were nerfed this class definitely would've been begged for buffs a year ago

even now, the state is super unhealthy and should absolutely change

[past lark]

It’s also just that bosses don’t really care about stealth making the reason you’d even run assassin for bosses pointless apart from twisted two

I guess, it would be worse off in clearing tho probably because single target isn’t exactly useful in delve content

[dry swan]

imo Stealth should be better supported but have its uptime in R3 nerfed

[crimson cypress]

what is stealth gonna do against the thirty mobs infront of me

do I just start crit chaining

[dry swan]

R2 Assassin had cool interactions with Twisted because you could utilize Stealth to get an opening for your team

[steady rover]

Reverb +stealth interaction when

[dry swan]

well Stealth means you don't get hit ever because in R3 you get too much of it

so yeah

get to work

[past lark]

Bro u know it’s infinite right

Like genuinely if ur hitting shit

[crimson cypress]

that sounds very unfun

!

[dry swan]

Echo of the Beast should be worth 12 charm power like lmao

Sporran should be like 5

[past lark]

I guess but it means you build full damage and one tap everything anyways

Also dthrow and reverb are pretty decent chip aoe

[crimson cypress]

that's what I do on berserker

[past lark]

It’s not as bad as it seems

[dry swan]

the double negative out in force, not punished for building fullglass BUT your class needs you to build fullglass anyway

[crimson cypress]

it does sound quite bad compared to the bunny hop that is berserker

[past lark]

Yeah I agree but it’s pretty unique for that where if you fuck up you are heavily punished and I don’t really mind it how it is

And I don’t really care if it’s not the best boss dps

[crimson cypress]

"if you miss a crit you DIE!!"

[past lark]

Even if it’s thematically weird

[fresh fiber]

especially when ppl really started dropping it

[dry swan]

I'm fine with heavy punishment gameplay but we can do better

[past lark]

Not really unless ur missing like three crits in a row

When most the mobs are standing still

[dry swan]

R2 Assassin was similar but it actually had limited Stealth

[past lark]

Bodkin lasts for a while and only has a 12s cd with nadir

[dry swan]

and you weren't forced into fullglass so you had variable defense to play into

[past lark]

I shrimpose

[fresh fiber]

ggorppea

[past lark]

Also with less identity with stealth I’m worried that ssage would just be flat out better than single target focused assassin with less stealth

Kinda just a problem with the balancing of mobs currently

Twisted two helped a bit

[amber geode]

yo hop on dress to impress

[past lark]

Hy

[amber geode]

yippee

[subtle epoch]

@past lark

[amber geode]

me when the balance update reduces item choice

[subtle epoch]

yo pookie