The Actual Causes Underneath the Lootrunning Consequence

[silver thicket]

no worries

[grave tundra]

This is true

there's also not great infrastructure to make the changes needed

[neat crag]

I really think just changing the way healing sickness is done is a great solution to the problem

[grave tundra]

is this the part of the thread where i reply to the message I sent 5 minutes into it last night

[neat crag]

🗣️

[grave tundra]

.

HoT = health over time

[neat crag]

Yeah

I find that 40% is fine if it had like a 30s-1m cooldown

[trim thicket]

I do admit at higher difficulties there is literally no breathing room to not require the necessity to spam healing.

[silver thicket]

maybe it's just me, but i feel tweaks to IH like the proposed above wouldn't really warrant massive sweeping changes to the entirety of the game's balance

[full lake]

What is IH?

[neat crag]

Likely not at all

[grave tundra]

instant health % = IH

[silver thicket]

Instant Health

[full lake]

@-@

[silver thicket]

like if anything hyc maybe

[grave tundra]

I can agree generally but also not sure

[neat crag]

I think some high-end gameplay will need to change a bit

[silver thicket]

some of the more inherently explosive damage sources

[grave tundra]

What I'd like to do is spin this into an Experimental for real this time

[silver thicket]

right

[grave tundra]

and do server-wide beta testing essentially

or a weird form of alpha

[silver thicket]

thats a smart idea

[neat crag]

You have clips like Fennec's where he got 2 shot to a cz pig in full tank and that doesn't really make sense

[silver thicket]

its a great way to utilize the wealth of players you have at your disposal

[grave tundra]

It wouldnt be 1:1, because we cant change items, but we could reduce IH effectiveness and put a CD on using it

[neat crag]

But that's an issue with or without IH

[neat crag]

I would say don't do both

[grave tundra]

ehh

[neat crag]

Or I'm curious as to why you feel the need to do both

[grave tundra]

possibly overshooting the target

I think just 1 or the other doesnt quite fix it

just CD is still 40% instant health immediately

thats a lot

[silver thicket]

the values on the potions themselves definitely serve to be reeled in

[grave tundra]

20% instant health no CD is spammable

[full lake]

I think reduce IH effectiveness will not help much
Cuz lr build is steadfast and steadfast benefit from low health, so smol heal will help it stronger. That is why spam ii work

[grave tundra]

Im not worried about lootrunning here as much as I am overall game health

I know this thread was written about LR in mind but I've been thinking about it in terms of the greater issues at hand

[neat crag]

I think this would promote, as devs like to say "soulful" usage of instant health pots. They still feel meaningful to use, but it's more important to know when to use them

[grave tundra]

I think you get your soulful word usage rights revoked

[neat crag]

[grave tundra]

I can hear you though

[silver thicket]

i agree i think this thread sheds light beyond just lr

[grave tundra]

anyway I am going to bug frossoli constantly to spin something up into a modifier

[neat crag]

I think IH potency is good especially if we were to keep the rest of the game the same, I just think the spammable nature of instant health needs to go

[grave tundra]

we also would need a way to apply the modifier to zenith/depths but thats probably doable

[neat crag]

What modifier

For IH?

[grave tundra]

,

[nimble quest]

get qwan to write it

[neat crag]

What's an Experimental? Test server?

[nimble quest]

professional experimental delves maker

[silver thicket]

delve mod

[neat crag]

Oh

[heady robin]

Experimental delve mod

[nimble quest]

like chance cubes right

[grave tundra]

An exp modifier that

• Reduces IH effectiveness
• Applies a hard CD to using IH

[neat crag]

Nah just push it to main

[grave tundra]

fo sho

[white canyon]

sounds like a pretty free modifier

[nimble quest]

that's just a free 5 points to people like me who don't use pots

[grave tundra]

(oh no)

[open niche]

What would this even accomplish

[grave tundra]

I could make it cost 1 point

[nimble quest]

as long as sapper exist

[open niche]

As in why make it an experimental

[white canyon]

even though you could probably just have it take up less points

[neat crag]

Wait this is actually great: Level 1 can be just hard CD on IH and level 2 can be a 50% reduction to all healing from IH.

[grave tundra]

Determine what elements of the game would need to change and to what extent based on players testing out the theoretical change

[silver thicket]

its important to not get tunnel vision by only looking at IH healing sources

[south ingot]

Yes I definitely agree that solutions shouldn't come from the sole perspective of "how do we stop lootrunning." Lootrunning is just the culmination of abusing independently-overpowered strategies. Virtually-immortal builds shouldn't exist, especially outside of a dedicated tank class. Healing is an issue for the same reason. Unlimited AOE is also a problem if you don't want to encourage massive mob grouping. All of these things are independently problematic, lootrunning is just the simultaneous abuse of all three

[grave tundra]

absorption is also on the table

dont know what to think about absorption

[silver thicket]

ofc that too

basically the same ig

[grave tundra]

class healing abilities are out of my realm

I know nothing

[silver thicket]

cant make it over time i think

[heady robin]

• Instantly take 20 damage when Sapper triggers !!

[grave tundra]

not 50% probably 25-30% but yeah

can make it 1pt / 2pt if theres worry about a full 5pt being 'free'

[neat crag]

Will pureshard be nerfed 😔

[full lake]

I feel like main problem is pi somehow.
And i think AOE problem is more importance
Cuz you will get reward for hit your ability at hoard of mobs

[grave tundra]

idk im not a balance dev

[neat crag]

My pureshard grind comes to a halt

[nimble quest]

armor is also kinda bs

[neat crag]

fairwell 1mil spawner goal

[nimble quest]

when do we get negative damage tank armor pieces

[silver thicket]

honestly idk if it was an idea mentioned but maybe sapper shouldnt be able to work if x amount of mobs are nearby

[neat crag]

I think that causes issues in high pt delves

[silver thicket]

i dont think sapper is something that should be abused mid combat

[white canyon]

psst

[silver thicket]

ya i saw this one

[nimble quest]

what would be the cd

[open niche]

Just sadmouse'd it btw

[full lake]

There is a spawner force you to break it to deal dmg to mobs :))

And a fast spawner have huge shield

[heady robin]

Sooooo true

[white canyon]

probably something around 8 seconds

[grave tundra]

I dont think thats the play personally

[celest pelican]

[south ingot]

Too specific and again theres other options. Sapper is big but people can do fine even just saturation healing, or abilities, or regen, etc. It's also another balance consideration you have to consider when designing new encounters (eg chokepoints)

[neat crag]

I guess the cooldown thing makes faster gameplay worse, it hits lootrunning but then also hits classes like rogue more imo

[silver thicket]

i disagree in the sense that it is too specific, i think it's a healthy way to target unhealthy playstyles personally

i do agree that this change alone wouldnt be enough

[neat crag]

Sapper is great for melee classes and allows you to sustain yourself in longer ecounters

[open niche]

I dont think so either, theres merit to using pickaxe offensively. In this case using a sapper pickaxe mid combat for a quick pinch of heal

[white canyon]

could also make it have multiple charges so instances where you fight mobs from multiple spawners and mine those together after don't get nerfed

[open niche]

Well its more defensively but the use in combat is really nice

[silver thicket]

i kinda like that but also don't

[grave tundra]

I do this as well

you'd be hurting valid uses in the name of hurting LR

[neat crag]

I agree with coco here, I use pureshard often to get a little bit of health while doing stuff

[open niche]

In the same way as using eruption pickaxe, except as a more offensive matter

[grave tundra]

pickaxes in r3 are kind of just a mess

r2 does sapper right imo

[neat crag]

They aren't so bad

[grave tundra]

1 dominates

1 is in the gutter

[silver thicket]

i think with an approrpriate tuning this wouldn't enroach on valid uses

[grave tundra]

the rest are fake

How is that not bad

[open niche]

Yeah i hate how strong adze is in terms of defensive stats

[neat crag]

pureshard dominates?

[grave tundra]

I'd say so

[neat crag]

idk my guildmates use a lot of them

stoneborn is awful

one of my guildmates mains the eruption one lol

[silver thicket]

a mob limit or something along those lines just stops people from being swarmed by a thousand things and still being able to tank through it

[white canyon]

I just use Evanescent ( r1 pick btw )

[grave tundra]

you have 45+ builds I dont think you're a good baseline

[full lake]

I thought r3 just have 2 pickaxes

[grave tundra]

no disrespect

[neat crag]

Yeah but I am also getting a pureshard hopeskin!

[grave tundra]

!!

[neat crag]

so all my build use it...

[open niche]

Ex stoneborn believe it or not is usable

[jade jetty]

pretty much

[neat crag]

Not really 😔

[gritty laurel]

pureshard for life i nerver used anything else other the shield break one for cz runs

[silver thicket]

anything is "usable" depending on the context and without providing context that is an empty statement

[neat crag]

It eats all your health man you can't use it without coping saturation/hunger items

[open niche]

Berserker and reaper then theres the context

Arguably cleric but i dont touch it, point is any class with decent built in sustain can use it

[jade jetty]

yeah but silly people think the answer to it is nerfing pureshard instead of making literally a single other good pickaxe

[silver thicket]

the time saved on spawners is not able to make up for the time you'd save healing or saturation stacking

[full lake]

It -1 heart per spawner

[silver thicket]

opportunity cost but sure useable

ive used it post nerf too

[neat crag]

To go along with this, I think there's a reason the other pickaxes aren't used.

(They are all mid or bad)

[wooden sable]

-1 HP, not 1 heart (2 HP), IIRC (Wrong)

[gritty laurel]

how is it usable on reaper i don't want something to eat my hp when i can't heal lol

[grave tundra]

Who out here using Boilerdrill

[full lake]

It is level 2?

[silver thicket]

i mean i think there's a little credence to this but pureshard is not innocent of being overtuned

[wooden sable]

It is...

[silver thicket]

kinda hard to make alternative "good pickaxes" too

not exactly a ton of room

[neat crag]

I mean there's a lot imo especially with the ones there

[open niche]

Dpact and soul rend, no?

[silver thicket]

a lot of room?

idk perhaps

[wooden sable]

When do we get an Ethereal pickaxe for Dumpling 💀

[jade jetty]

do you also think earthshaker is overtuned?

[gritty laurel]

if you have dpact up and its still at -100% you only heal 2 hp

[full lake]

Slow

[jade jetty]

pureshard is one tick faster than earthshaker

[neat crag]

Skysplitter is arguably bis in starpoint +, the more shielded spawners the more viable it becomes. Supernova needs a bit more damage and then it turns meaningful in combat. Overclocker would be cool but it should focus on adrenaline and speed more than it does. Gem tipped can be a good all arounder but it likely needs 1 more level of effeciency.

[gritty laurel]

pureshard is super good for reaper cuz if you are at -66% healing you still heal 0.5 hp

cuz it can't go any lower

[silver thicket]

honestly kinda is i don't really think sapper is easy to contest

[grave tundra]

you remember we stripped most shields from SP overworld right

[neat crag]

Yup.

Which is why skysplitter fell off a bit

[full lake]

I just swap it to skysplitter to mine shield

Break 3 shield per mine :))

[neat crag]

Also stoneborn really should just have a lot of fragility on it

Like all fragility at V or X

That way it's viable for normal gameplay but not viable for speeding through content (because you die really quickly when you hold it)

[south ingot]

yeah that was suggested a lot when the change came out but for some reason they stuck with anti sapper

[silver thicket]

semantic and unrelated but i personally dislike how much the word "viable" is thrown around

[grave tundra]

if we care about exalted items mimicing their r1 counter parts thats kind of not at all on line

[neat crag]

Crippiling also is a good option on it

[jade jetty]

theres like a million things it couldve had instead

[neat crag]

Hmmm why

[neat crag]

Curse of Crippiling could also be a good option on it

[white canyon]

because this

[silver thicket]

its just a very strong word, and viability is more of a binary thing rather than a scale or degree

and yes

ty

[neat crag]

I see

Okay well stoneborn is overall a generally bad pickaxe that I have never seen in use since the nerf

[silver thicket]

truly

[ancient kiln]

not viable !

[neat crag]

Maybe you hear about 1-2 people saying they use it on a specific build. So when I say unviable, I literally mean... unviable in all forms of play and content!

[full lake]

I think this is better

Cuz the pickaxe is design to tank while mining

Why make it less tank? @-@

[neat crag]

I would literally give it Curse of Crippling X (can't move if under 50% health)

[ancient kiln]

isnt tanking when mining kinda aganist tm goals

[neat crag]

Yeah

[full lake]

But that is how that pickaxe work

[silver thicket]

that unfortunately boils down to your definition and i suppose if you think the pickaxe simply cannot be used anywhere then i'd have to disagree

[full lake]

It evn have kbr

[white canyon]

Also a bit late but is spawner break abilities existing not the perfect example for why what you're saying isn't the case

[silver thicket]

it's easier to say that it just suffers greatly from opportunity cost

[white canyon]

unless you were talking about content outside CZ

[ancient kiln]

yes so it was used for lootruns a lot

and then nerfed to unusable cuz of that

[neat crag]

Content outside of CZ

But also I disagree with that statement as only flame spirit really enables it more than the other spawner breaks (and they are likely removing it)

[white canyon]

All of them somewhat enable it

[neat crag]

The other spawner breaks basically do not do anything to help "lootrun" and they do want to kill the playstyle more and more as they've been adding all these workarounds to try and stop people from doing it

Which is why we are here anyways

[white canyon]

and dungeons are pretty much untouched by anti-lootrun mechanics

[white canyon]

The way I see it, is they're just making it less effective

which in my mind is a positive for overall game balance

[silver thicket]

i dont believe anyone in balance or tm would directly seek to "kill" any playstyle at least one as broad as this

[neat crag]

I agree, I've just gotten a different mind from my conversations with devs and stuff

They do want to kill cz full rush

Like plain and simple have said so

[white canyon]

well so far the actions don't match up to what you're saying they said

[full lake]

But why lr is bad?

[neat crag]

That's not up for me to explain tbh

[white canyon]

thats true

but its my reason for why im inclined to believe those were hyperbolic statements and that they just want to nerf it ( by a lot )

[neat crag]

Charging may be able to explain more on that front as we've had some conversations on stream about it

[neat crag]

🫡

[celest pelican]

lring undermines the core gameplay of monumenta

[full lake]

What is monumenta core gameplay? I just play it cuz i like boss

[white canyon]

in the context of CZ, it's the most effective way of clearing

[celest pelican]

kill enemies -> break spawner -> loot chests
rince and repeat

[white canyon]

and I believe it should be nerfed

[nimble quest]

imo I think normal play should be effective

[neat crag]

(I enjoy CZ rushing so I am saddend by the changes) but I know generally they need to happen

[nimble quest]

rushing in cz only happened because early game cz was luck based

[celest pelican]

what if killing enemies granted bit of treasure score

[neat crag]

It may take my enjoyment out of the game, but if it makes it better for intended gameplay then so be it

[neat crag]

Still is to be fair

[full lake]

Still lr anyway cuz flame spirit

[neat crag]

Do you know what changes they are adding to F1 yet

Or when those are coming out

[nimble quest]

yeah I implemented it lol

[neat crag]

Because we have a feedback post in the works

[nimble quest]

in a few weeks

[neat crag]

🗣️

discount dev doing work

[nimble quest]

🥺

[neat crag]

[nimble quest]

it would be interesting to see if "rushing" is still possible

[neat crag]

After your changes?

[nimble quest]

having some insane shadow target twisteds and everyone else speeds by

[neat crag]

Oh right now?

It's still possible and being done 💀

[nimble quest]

does it feel harder

[ancient kiln]

nah its not possible anymore

no one fucking online

[nimble quest]

or does it feel closer to normal play

[neat crag]

TRUE

[full lake]

The reason for lr in cz work cuz main oject is break spawner, not killing mobs Y-Y

[ancient kiln]

feels like you reset more for abils

[neat crag]

everything dies anyways

[ancient kiln]

then f1 is a bit longer

[neat crag]

yeah this

[ancient kiln]

then f2 and f3 same

[neat crag]

f1 is longer because you reset 30 times and then punch a twisted with your wand for 30s

[white canyon]

this is why you need a melee set for f1

[neat crag]

(we have melee)

[white canyon]

4 people with melee sets

[ancient kiln]

this is why you reset for abilities

[neat crag]

You also shouldn't need to play like that

[full lake]

Don't force shadow to solo hit twisted Y-Y

[celest pelican]

this is kinda the issue here

[white canyon]

not really, because even that statement alone is just wrong ( since there's a mob kill requirement when opening rooms )

[full lake]

Yeah, and when player do ojective, TM mad, everyone mad

[celest pelican]

in my eyes lring is just boring so I don't do it

[ancient kiln]

hmmm

imagine if we had a strike with mob req

surely that is not gonna be lootrunned

surely.

[celest pelican]

I just kinda personally don't understand what people see fun in lootrunning 😭

[white canyon]

doing content fast is enjoyable

[open niche]

Optimization is pretty kino

[ancient kiln]

idk as someone inbetween lootrunner and antilootrunner

[full lake]

I don't like lr dungeon
But in cz, i do like lr

[neat crag]

Optimization is fun to us

[ancient kiln]

i just got tired of doing same things over and over and over again

[neat crag]

Doing things as fast as possible brings us joy

[ancient kiln]

even if it feels wrong it is faster

[open niche]

I remember SR's marathon where it would be optimized to hell and back

[full lake]

Why don't just ignore cz lr and hit sskt lr for fun again :)))

[nimble quest]

you want to be rewarded for having high? skill to lr

[ancient kiln]

i would say it brings me joy when yall add antilr measures which we just counter

its kinda just

literally

[full lake]

I think clear normaly is easier, and lr feel more stress

[ancient kiln]

adapt improvise overcome

[neat crag]

https://tenor.com/view/orange-cat-gets-flung-and-explodes-orange-cat-funny-cat-meme-explodes-gif-10706110874965244466

[full lake]

That make me want to lr (in cz)

[ancient kiln]

but at same time i would never rush or lr a content that i am not tired of

[full lake]

Not cuz it faster :))

[quaint yoke]

Well the goal is to harbor changes where the overcoming part requires more skill, which is very difficult in how monumenta currently is balanced

[wintry axle]

practically all balance talk is to nerf r3 player power in some way so you are gonna be disappointed I think

[ancient kiln]

cz rush always took skill and investment

now it takes more

and i am fine with it

[neat crag]

I think you’ve already do that to be fair with the twisted changes you barely see any now

[ancient kiln]

but just

make f1 less bs

and much less people will rush

instantly

[quaint yoke]

I don’t think the flame spirit sundrops stacking was the desired skill expression

[ancient kiln]

maybe not

[quaint yoke]

(Not that the current version is significantly better)

[neat crag]

Still can remove that and it’ll be done by the same people imo

[ancient kiln]

we did runs without either btw

simply cuz cz rng moment

[quaint yoke]

Well did those runs require playing more actively and skillfully?

[neat crag]

If the goal is to make it more skillful I think you’ve already reached that. Only people who can do it now are those who have invested thousands and know ins/outs of cz

[neat crag]

Yes very much so

[full lake]

Yea,

[ancient kiln]

id probably lean towards yes

[full lake]

Normal clear is way easier

But slow

[quaint yoke]

Them I would say making those tools less powerful was a good change

[ancient kiln]

but not really for my role in particular lol

ok im lying a bit here

[neat crag]

Your role is the same regardless

[quaint yoke]

Or atleast one trying to go in the right direction

[neat crag]

Fennec you’re out of touch

[ancient kiln]

it did take more contribution from me

[neat crag]

You’re the best steel player on the server

Someone tell this guy off

[jade jetty]

frush straight after hwinds nerf was so much more skill based then they added mob kill req and it became trivial 💔

[ancient kiln]

am i really

[full lake]

It is about speed i think, if you make it less powerful but it still faster than normal clear, people still rush cz. But now need more skill

[white canyon]

Isn't that the goal?

[quaint yoke]

That is the goal

[full lake]

To kill lr?

Or make it harder?

[white canyon]

why do you think in such a narrow way

[ancient kiln]

to have it take more skill

[full lake]

Cuz i have tunnel vision

[quaint yoke]

The goal is to make lr require proportionally more skill to the reward gained

[quaint yoke]

In my opinion

[full lake]

And i might say something wrong cuz i not fully understand English

[neat crag]

Understandable, you guys are close

[white canyon]

point is that the previous versions and the current version of "cz lootrunning" were and are too effective

[quaint yoke]

My second definitely more controversial opinion is that it also should somewhat represent the same gameplay loot as the normal clear of the content but quicker and more optimized. Which is significantly harder to pull off and is very distant

[south ingot]

It doesn't really make it harder, it makes it slower, and more boring. The optimization motivation stays the same, but now the optimal way to play is just a more boring version of itself. In my opinon the best version of lootrunning was before any nerfs, and without howling winds. More challenging than now (because you greeded for speed, and everything stayed alive) and substantially more entertaining.

The optimal way to play shouldnt need multiple targetted restrictions and end up as passively clearing in a tank set, which is where it will has ended up with simple door requirements

[neat crag]

Explain

[quaint yoke]

Me or oracore?

[neat crag]

You

[neat crag]

This

[quaint yoke]

Will do

[full lake]

Now i think about core monumenta gameplay, is it really kill mobs, break spawner, get loot?
What make monumenta fun and enjoyable?

[south ingot]

Thats a very personal question theres no right or generalizable answer

[full lake]

It is for me overcome a challenge :))

[celest pelican]

what you find fun

everyone has their own definition of fun

[full lake]

And get better

[white canyon]

If a new dungeon comes out and the Devs who made it intended for it to make a player 20har in an hours worth of playtime. And then players discover a method of clearing the dungeon that makes 50har/hour. The appropriate response would be to nerf the more effective method of clearing the dungeon.

[wintry axle]

okay the challenge is to click on a mob 500 times to kill it

[white canyon]

I see the current issue to be the same as that

[celest pelican]

I agree, bringing down the level between most optimized setups vs normal setups

[white canyon]

Lootrunning in the context of CZ is just a broad term for clearing something in the fastest way possible

[full lake]

Do cz oject to open next room

(Break spawner)

[wooden sable]

My original talent: Actually trying to play the game
Challenge: I am poor
My new talent that overcomes the challenge: Lootrunning 💀

[white canyon]

because you obviously still have to kill mobs, just not in the exact same way

[quaint yoke]

The loop of non speedran cz is quite similar to most of monumenta gameplay where you fully engage with encounters killing mobs fully clearing out areas and breaking spawners. On the other hand cz speedruning at its core tries to reduce the amount of engagement with the mobs and encounters as it’s simply not time efficient to fully clear and kill mobs in a somewhat convenientional manner. In my perfect world (which I have no clue how it could be achieved nor if it would be positively viewed by the majority) the speedrunning of cz would be closer to the conventional run in terms of gameplay requiring you to engage in challenging and difficult encounters clearing out rooms properly. Is this feasible? Maybe not, would it be more fun than the current system for the average player? Maybe not, but you gotta dream a bit

[grave tundra]

i dont see the vision

[celest pelican]

affects steadwind

-speed when under 50% hp

[full lake]

You still tank but slow

[celest pelican]

and damage

[grave tundra]

I see the vision

[neat crag]

👍

[celest pelican]

just put curse of crippling 10 on all the pickaxes

[full lake]

So why punish player for not killing mobs fast enough to break a spawner @-@

[neat crag]

Basically you can’t really play it where you guys wanted to prevent its use

[silver thicket]

i too would also prefer a world where the most optimal ways to play the game aren't by cutting out engagements and disrespecting enemies

[neat crag]

You’re forced to kill mobs and stay above a certain health percent or you literally can’t mine the spawners

[grave tundra]

I can see it

[jade jetty]

+1

[full lake]

Yea, colosus Y-Y

[grave tundra]

I think balance said they aren't changing pickaxes until 1.20.5+ though

[neat crag]

Doesn’t make sense to me

But ok

[grave tundra]

idk either

I'd rather see it changed now

[white canyon]

Just that it'd work normally on any non steadfast set

[full lake]

I really hate it

[grave tundra]

instead of waiting arbitrarily

[neat crag]

I just dislike the monthly aspect of balance changes

How do I get balance

I can fix the game

[white canyon]

blame the early r3 generation that complained about balance patches coming out too often

[grave tundra]

start with build shard access I guess

[neat crag]

Does build have custom items

[full lake]

I alway feel like monumenta delve want you to break a spawner first and kill mobs later

[grave tundra]

yeah

[heady robin]

You can make them

[grave tundra]

you have all the tools on there

[neat crag]

Like can I recreate a pick but change the efficiency, chance the build etc

[grave tundra]

mhm

[neat crag]

Can I run content on build

[heady robin]

Literally creative mode

No

[grave tundra]

no

well

[neat crag]

Ugh

[grave tundra]

you can make your own mobs put them in spawners

[neat crag]

You can’t really test then can you

[wintry axle]

yeah no, not when arcanic + carapace is a thing at high point

[grave tundra]

it does not have a testing environment, no

[neat crag]

That sucks

Do you guys even have a test server

[grave tundra]

yes

[neat crag]

Well that’s good

[grave tundra]

we have two beta testing servers internally

[neat crag]

Alright well I’ll apply for build

[wooden sable]

Arcanic + Carapace + Assassins

[celest pelican]

[neat crag]

Check mod help

[full lake]

Well, the only high point content i do is cz
And i frush cz :))

[neat crag]

Do you think I have a chance

[ancient kiln]

Nope :3 !

[neat crag]

[celest pelican]

as long as your reputation is not absolute shit

[wintry axle]

so your original point is irrelevant then

[neat crag]

It is

[ancient kiln]

lol, lmao even

[neat crag]

No harm in trying

[ancient kiln]

oh well not wrong

[neat crag]

I think I need to start experimenting with other classes

Might be time to learn warlock

[celest pelican]

the whole name for "build shard" is one big lie

[gritty laurel]

REAPER

[neat crag]

Anyways wtf off topic

[neat crag]

Bro I was finna dm you

I need your build

[gritty laurel]

ok!

[ancient kiln]

creating mobs is much more fun

[full lake]

So my life is a lie, i though people build in build shard

[ancient kiln]

kinda burnt out at the moment but still

[celest pelican]

theres been more mob creating than building recently

[jade jetty]

[grave tundra]

who snows

[jade jetty]

i wonder if the amount of lootrunners actually would decrease if you didnt have to spend so much time doing mundane stuff

aka spawner mining and eating

[jade jetty]

can i apply to beta test and then run shifting on test server constantly

[neat crag]

[grave tundra]

https://tenor.com/view/mario-dies-thwomp-mario-64-mario-64-thwomp-death-gif-14049040339050574490

[wooden sable]

I second this person's plans. What if Shifting actually is not fixed but that it is super rare?

Must make random mobstest!

[neat crag]

insta-eat soon

[neat crag]

[grave tundra]

that was a new record I think

[celest pelican]

speedrun any%

[neat crag]

expected

they dont like me

its cool

[frosty flame]

impressive

that's gotta be a new record

[ancient kiln]

who would expect that

[neat crag]

🗣️

[jade jetty]

free niamN 💔

[tight marten]

sorry i paid them to deny you

please forgive me

[zinc kraken]

late but I still think this is dumb

why do I have to wait until the imaginary 1.20.5 update that's never gonna happen just for the opportunity for Boilerdrill to be good like all the other options are 💀

[knotty ravine]

you kind of can? you’d have to make the mobs and spawners by hand, you could probably steal the layout from an SKR room or the copy of quelled that we have sitting around… or ask a dev to copy the environment over

[neat crag]

its okay I got rejected lol

[mossy ivy]

wow i wish i could test balance changes!

[neat crag]

off the table

[knotty ravine]

oh my days

rip

[neat crag]

kind of expected it but I thought I'd try

I just need to get my rep up and apply later

[timid sierra]

this post

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-24533171

[mossy ivy]

https://discord.com/channels/313066655494438922/1361491876036874260

[full lake]

It would be fun if we ignore lring

[last goblet]

Not when lootrunning gives you x5 efficiency idk
It’s fine if people enjoy that but it shouldn’t give you that much more resources
idk though I don’t really lootrun it looks like a lot more loot

[wintry axle]

we could nuke lootrunning by setting a mininum time for content to open the loot room and then ignore it and then itd be fun

[last goblet]

Sentenced to cutscenes

[wintry axle]

wait they'd like that

[full lake]

It is not that bad :))

[amber basin]

I'm a player who has reached endgame and only casually play R3. I don't bother with Hexfall, high level CZ, any content above 18 points, nor have any R2 or R3 QoL Epics. I play a lot of Tank from both extremes of high HP and low HP to have a high amount of EHP. I can defintely agree with Healing Bloat. PI feels wayyyy too powerful with how it can save your life. Being able to rapidly use potions without shifting through your inventory reduces a lottt of the challenge of inventory management compared to when you started out and makes recovery feel trivial. I feel like all healing, whenever it be from eating food, regen, sapper, etc should also be standarized to only heal based on HP% rather than flat HP. And defintely have a cooldown on healing pots. As for EHP stacking, that's where I have issues with. The great thing about Monumenta is all about making the build you want. You want to make a Tank for better survivability? You can go ahead! You want to make a Poise Set with high Armor with low HP but benefits a lot from Flat Absorbence to syngerize with eachother? You can do that, and discovering that magic is wonderful. That synergy is what allows Tanks to also invest some of their secondary stats into attack since a Tank set that takes 3-4 hits to kill a common enemy sucksssss. I do think rapid lootrunning is an issue, but I feel like that more in so is because it feels lie there no punishment for blitzing. By the same coin, it would be like nerfing all DPS weapons because someone is able to kill Silver Construct in 12 seconds with a bunch of buffs.

The tools your armour give for better EHP is important since it makes decision making for your build or what niche you want to make, all the more impactful. Instead of punishing the tools the game gives you like your skills that excel in AoE combat, the game should present a greater challenge, like reduced loot for not killing X enemies, or the more rapidly you spawn enemies in quick succession, maybe have mobs spawn in greater numbers or speed? I don't want the new players into R3 or players who don't have all endgame items to make things a breeze to be negatively impacts by those that do, and make it feel less fun and squish for those that take our time or want to try out harder content but find they are so squishy that they either feel forced to invest into full DPS that it feels like R3 is pushing towards.

[full lake]

Holy

[grave tundra]

reading through

[full lake]

I will put it in subway suffer video

[grave tundra]

I support this post because it conforms with my preconceived ideas

[south ingot]

They did give the nerf treament to DPS stacking with hard DPS/damage per hit caps pretty much everywhere, as well as additive. I really dislike hard caps exactly for the reason that it kills build variety. Its impossible to justify running full glass, even if you want and are able to, when it does literally 0 more damage than another build because of a DPS cap. That being said theres obvious limitations you should never reach in any catagory.

You shouldn't ever be able to kill bosses 5x faster than their intended runtime (see: hexfall, vesperidys, broodmother, etc...). You also shouldn't ever be virtually immortal, no matter what synergy you use. The only exception I can think of is for a dedicated tank class, since that is the entire point of the class. But this should be independent of the armor, and built-in intentionally to the class abilities.

Theres needs to be limitations, preferably soft, so that these obvious overpowered builds can't exist. Soft, so that you can still stack full tank gear and benefit for it, if you really want to, but not so much that you never die because of it.

[amber basin]

I tend to jumble a lot of my thoughts in full sentences xD
Tl;dr, don't harm player's choices because of a population of high end player because it harms players at the more normie side who want to discover how to use and specialize the tools given

[south ingot]

As far as this goes, solutions like rewarding less based on mobs killed is again another bandaid to the actual problem of stat bloat. Bandaids by their nature are going to be arbitrary, highly specific, and hard to balance (and then keep balanced through ever change forever after). What you'll almost certainly end up with following this path is a suboptimal solution and a harder time balancing around your overfitted solution. You aren't harming any average player by making overpowered builds unobtainable. If you're taking advantage of overpowered builds, you aren't playing in the average.

[silver thicket]

i personally believe bosses designed with a dps cap in mind are going to be easier to balance, and it encourages build variety if anything

[silver thicket]

jus referring to this btw

[south ingot]

And personally, I prefer keeping gameplay variety. For example you chose rapidly spawning enemies as an example of bad behavior, but why? Its perfectly reasonable to want to play faster paced and activate more spawners. The problem only appears when you don't get punished for it because youre in a 600EHP armor set with 3 AOE abilities to kill things with.

[silver thicket]

it wouldn't be a perfect solution alone (nothing presented so far would be), but i think tying rewards more toward enemies can help in certain areas of the game

[south ingot]

I don't think it encourages build variety, the meta just becomes: hit the dps cap, then min-max some other stat. You should be able to run full glass if you want IMO, hard DPS caps prevent this. Full glass doesn't need to be 2x optimal, but even allowing 5% extra damage gives a reason to run it, compared to none at all.

I do agree that it makes balancing a boss easier, I just think theres better less-restrictive ways to accomplish that

[full lake]

What is hard dps cap?

[south ingot]

Like 750 damage per second, all damage above that is pointless

or 500 damage per hit, bigger hits get rounded down

Theres never a point in building above that with those types of hard caps

[full lake]

It does that? Idk about that

[silver thicket]

i just don't see why not having a cap to enable full glass is a stronger form of build variety over the idea of minmaxing less straightforward aspects of a fight

hm but idk i guess i can see it

losing out on the glass i suppose is technically a loss because the game would just hard enforce it being pointless versus "oh you're not max dps ig you can contribute or something"

[neat crag]

I think if general EHP was worse and damage pieces felt more impactful then we'd see a shift in going towards mixed sets

[south ingot]

For the majority of bosses running 5% damage in exchange for all your EHP is not going to be worth it, but someone might want to anyway just to shave those seconds off their perfect run. Its not stronger variety to run full minmax damage its just a different choice that should be avaliable

[silver thicket]

i understand i think what you're getting at

but i think like i said if dps caps make balancing the boss easier, i'd say it's a worthy sacrifice

[amber basin]

I've tried playing a full tank set without any infusions on Warrior and it felt awful to play, because it took forever to kill an enemy, and when an enemy lives longer, the more damage you will often take. So unlike the DPS race, where you can be immortal since no one punishes you if they're dead. For Tanking, you are immortal with the astrik that if you don't have the damage, it's unsustainable. And again, I am speaking as a player who just does Fragments to improve their gear, I don't have any infusions or Consumable Epics/Rares other than KApple, so I feel like a lot of the issues come in to the mass ease that comes QoL Epics, which in that case, it fair since the player took the time to grind for that.

[amber basin]

and I brought up that example because if you are just able to murder everything on sight with just a single melee hit, you never get punished because enemies are dead before they have the time to punish you for your squishiness. So if your faster paced and never get punished, where is the challenge, compared to Tanky players having to outpace enemies for their lower damage.

[desert ore]

Full tank generally isn’t applicable for normal gameplay though

esp not on warrior which doesnt have non-standard forms of dmg

[hallow fjord]

It is sort of class dependant

r1 warrior for example can just run mostly full tank

[desert ore]

That’s more of an r1 thing though

And cwatchers existing partially

the meta is different there compared to elsewhere imo

[amber basin]

ye, that is true, but if you nerf one aspect, it nerfs players that use some Tanky pieces to become more well-rounded, to where you don't want to bother using it

[desert ore]

Not necessarily no

You can nerf something without it impacting other things

Targeted changes are a thing

changes dont have to be a blanket true or false, all or nothing

The simplest way for example would be to just start applying diminishing returns to ehp past a certain amount of defense

[south ingot]

This has not been my experience. Especially with basic infusions existing, a virtually-immortal build is actually only like half the damage of a more standard DPS build. And you can easily activate and group like 5 spawners at once. 5x efficiency at half the DPS is faster, and this is my played experience too (not just in zenith). You also aren't really outpacing anything, youre immortal- you have all the time in the world.

[desert ore]

It doesnt kick in unless you go above a certain amount of tankiness regular gameplay will never achieve

Idk about that being a good or clean solution, to clarify, it was just an example of a simple method of nerfing tanks without impacting more standard builds

[amber basin]

doesn't that already exist with the more Armor/Agility you invest, the less returns it gives? Or is the deminishing returns so slowly gradual that it's no-existent? :O

[desert ore]

It is not dimnishing

defense is exponential

Every defense results in 4% more ehp than the last

ehp can roughly be calculated as 1.04 * defense

[silver thicket]

not really related but i feel like warrior is one of the best classes to build tanky gear on anyway

[south ingot]

For example here's a very DPS centered clear set, versus its zenith tank set counterpart (steadfast 4). With full infusions you are still dealing over half the damage, and have like triple the effective EHP. They are zenith sets but honestly you can put berserker charms on them and they would function very well in overworld too

[silver thicket]

has so much inherent damage

[desert ore]

Every 17 defense doubles your ehp

Another maybe valid solution is to have defense start scaling linearly as defense goes up

So at some point it’s adding 4% ehp instead of x1.04 ehp or something once you hit a silly enough amount

[silver thicket]

is this counting full infusions on the standard damage set in fairness?

[south ingot]

neither numbers have infusions active, you can just image they have the +42.5% or whatever it is, plus more from delve

[silver thicket]

ngl i dont see a large difference in the ehp values for these ss

[south ingot]

steadfast is hard to show

[heady robin]

It’s without steadfast

[wooden sable]

What do you mean by this? It always will be a (1 / 0.96) multiplier on your EHP per armor/agility (assuming no mixing)

[silver thicket]

makes sense

[desert ore]

.

[amber basin]

Oh, I play on Guardian and only used Brute Force as my only offensive Skill to go full defensively build, got no idea how well Beserk does offensively :O

[silver thicket]

using Damage Reduction would be a much better measure for it

[south ingot]

if you want to mess around with the hp sliders:
tank https://ohthemisery.vercel.app/builder/m=EX Corrupted Scalawag's Hatchet-4&o=Crimson Tithe-4&h=Uriddan's Legacy-4&c=Stalwart Protector-4&l=EX Ironscale Leggings-4&b=EX Chains of the Damned-4&charm=None
normal https://ohthemisery.vercel.app/builder/m=EX Corrupted Scalawag's Hatchet-4&o=Aggripa's Gearshredder-4&h=Tarri's Windeater-4&c=Darkstar Pauldron-4&l=Melded Bronzeskin-4&b=Shrouded Sabatons-4&charm=None

[heady robin]

You can calc that with steadfast 4 applied to the whole HP bar though it’s like a 2.5x ehp boost total

[wooden sable]

Ah, as a proposed solution. I can see that, but it might be a bit harsh

[silver thicket]

i personally already understand the difference as an avid steadfast player

quite tankful

[desert ore]

For reference its 154 ehp at 50 defense and 1185 ehp at 100 defense

We are in fact approaching the point where it’s possible for tank builds to lean towards 100 rather than 50

I do not want to think about the issues mw 5 will bring rn

[wooden sable]

I have seen it before: it is an exponential curve when considering the relationship between armor and EHP

[wooden sable]

Well...half the MW 4 items will just lose some stats lol

[silver thicket]

yea it seriously is not sustainable to have armor remain on this curve with masterwork increasing values

don't need to get to a point where standard enemy damage output is like 70

[desert ore]

At mw6 we will likely have gotten over 100 defense

The only reason it’s not possible rn is there’s not enough double situational items that arent mutually exclusive

[knotty ravine]

i just had a realisation

[desert ore]

As items keep getting added and they run out of options more of them will trickle in and at some point you’re wearing 5 pieces of 5 defense + double situ non-mutually exclusive pieces

[silver thicket]

the steadfast 10 build

[knotty ravine]

if “looting chests without killing mobs gets me more loot”
why isn’t the solution “move loot drops to mob kills”

[grave tundra]

because thats not our game

[silver thicket]

its not necessarily the issue honestly even if it'd probably help in some cases

[desert ore]

We have this, it’s called RoD and gallery

[heady robin]

You can still kill mobs while rushing, whether that's from 1 click 1 shots or things like flame spirit/DoT

[amber basin]

Ohhhhh, that explains the difference. I use Offhand Shields, not offhand swords, so everytime I play Tank it feels like it takes 3-5 hits xD

[silver thicket]

this exactly

[desert ore]

But also tank builds in fact do not have issues with killing

[silver thicket]

maybe it ought to be a little more

[heady robin]

Rushing lets you gather all the mobs at once to clear them all instead of spawner -> cast -> spawner -> cast

[desert ore]

DoT builds, thorns cleric, blizzard stack for example all causes problems

blizzardstack got shot thankfully

[amber basin]

Even with Offhand Shields? :o

[grave tundra]

its one of the unique things thats makes us special, i'm not so sold on moving any further away from looting chests than we already have

[silver thicket]

not sure if it's something i want to discuss here it may be too offtopic

[desert ore]

Personally i think im fine with this playstyle existing

[silver thicket]

i dont find it as a "trait" that makes the game "special"

[desert ore]

Im not adverse to lootrunning existing even

[grave tundra]

I'd be fine with it if it wasnt so easy

[desert ore]

I just dislike that its so much more optimal than the alternatives

[grave tundra]

itd hurt my soul a bit but thus is life

[heady robin]

This is close to accurate btw

[south ingot]

Yeah I also think its a natural skill progression, if you can handle more mobs you can spawn more mobs and deal with the punishment. The problem comes from the negation of the punishment in a tank set, so much so that its unironically just easier to rush than it is to normal clear

[heady robin]

In this tank set, with steadfast fully active, you're going to have 67-75 armor depending on prots

[hallow fjord]

eh thats not so much armor maybe we should let steadfast stay 🥺

[heady robin]

I think there's something nice in greeding an extra spawner so that your AoE can clear it all but you should feel the risk in doing so

[hallow fjord]

its a valuable skill to have, although its kinda forced with chrono as a modifier when your playing with it

very relevant in cz where, you just cannot kill mobs without abilities so spawner rush is often not just the best but the only answer to problems.

[desert ore]

A double situ item has around 6 defense and 2 situ for 18 per piece

90 defense

Toss in a weapon with a situ for 96

[hallow fjord]

part of the problem is this armor being taking much further by things like wordly prot and class abitlies.

[desert ore]

That’s the theoretical hard limit for mw4

mw5 would put us at 100 once these items exist

[hallow fjord]

Also potions, a casual starbrew potion puts in insane work on a steadfast set

its so many things working together to create invincibility

[desert ore]

So we’re already ungodly tanky and not even close to the theoretical limit allowed yet

This doesnt account for carapace, tenacity, class passives, umm

potions i guess

[hallow fjord]

I love carapace infusion, but its acutally so broken

[desert ore]

anyway basically, your regular tank builds are starting to look a lot like full gallery tank armor

[hallow fjord]

people really out here running placebo +8.5 damage infusions instead of getting free ethereal on their sets.

[heady robin]

Carapace being 1.25 armor in question:

[desert ore]

Isnt carapace a bit over 1 point of defense

yeah

[hallow fjord]

Every bit adds up

[desert ore]

Its only really silly in situ stack

[heady robin]

I think we'd only apply a softcap system to armor/situationals first because those are the easiest to stack and it'd be simpler to handle

[desert ore]

Where 4% more ehp is uh

[heady robin]

Other sources are more a bit more managable

[hallow fjord]

I think the problem stuff like steadfast, reflexes and second wind have is that they dont have weaknesses, so they arent really that "situational" in the first place. For example evasion can make you very tanky, but your vulnerable at close range.

[desert ore]

Some of it is other things yeah

Those are being discussed in the delve mod thread

Reflexes should really probably get nerfed to have more granularity imo though

Esp if the legionary change goes through

My previous suggestion was have it scale to mob count past 3 up to a cap of 20%

[hallow fjord]

Reflexes is weird since its weakness is supposed to be that, it is not active when theres only a few mobs around. But monumenta is literally build around sending waves of enemies at a time; so it ends up being only inactive in boss fights only.

[desert ore]

5% per mob so u need 7 was my initial proposal

But those are just example numbers and can be freely changed

Steadfast.. i think second wind is honestly probably the bigger problem with it

Stead’s theoretical weakness was supposed to be getting nuked without it procing

second wind being both better value than regular defense and retroactively applying at 50% to conveniently put u at 40-50% hp range kinda throws that out the window?

Yer situ is no longer situ

[desert ore]

1 level of second wind is worth 2.5 defense to clarify iirc

stat budget wise i think it might be around 2 defense when we were comparing items but obviously i do not have the budget values TM uses

[hallow fjord]

it doesent help that second wind items, typically have like level 3 or level 2 of the enchant

I dont hate the idea of making reflexes scale based on the acutal amount of mobs present, although it makes the enchant much more complicated to play (which is maybe a good thing too)

[desert ore]

I dont have any good solutions for second wind either

Nor have i seen anyone make any good ones

Im kinda leaning towards it just getting shot at this point and replaced with 2 defense

[hallow fjord]

Secondwind becomes an agility situational so it no longer can be (easily) combined with steadfast

[amber basin]

As someone who loved Ability Healthstack (before it got nuked), I would have loved a buffed Reflexes ;w;

[desert ore]

Second wind isnt even classified as a situ

its not situational

[amber basin]

Second Wind feels so free with how you can reach highs and lows so easily on Cleric T<T

[hallow fjord]

this also makes the enchant no longer block stuff like fire damage

[desert ore]

Another issue 2nd wind would have with a theoretical defense soft cap is its not defense

[hallow fjord]

since ya it can just do that apparently. DOT effects which are supposed to counter situational stacking don't counter second wind.

[desert ore]

It should probably maybe modified a bit to fit better

[heady robin]

We can make it be treated as equivalent armor/agility

[desert ore]

Yeah

[desert ore]

Ah right this

[heady robin]

Stuff that would be hard to fit in is more so resistance effects since those exist in a different system

[desert ore]

I think that should probably go

[heady robin]

I do not really like second wind personally

It retroactively applies, so it’s not any different from pure armor besides making you get below 50% easier

[hallow fjord]

If this (or the things Lucent said) is not enough, go with full rework route instead

[desert ore]

.

[heady robin]

For which we don’t really even have anything that incentivizes you to play below 50% HP except for steadfast (and toughness u)

[desert ore]

Prismatic shield

[hallow fjord]

maybe make second wind, give like a temporary power boost when you reach below half health. so you have to manage your HP carefully to use it but at the cost of it being a risky play style and reliant on positioning to be powerful.

[heady robin]

So it’s more or less just a roundabout way of giving items more defense that specifically works with steadfast and other tiny things

[hallow fjord]

yes I am suggesting to make an armor enchant give buffs, its out there but I think its time for armor to get fancier things to do

[desert ore]

Its also run with sustain builds

[knotty ravine]

second wind is also budgetarily cheap asf

[desert ore]

You condense your hp bar into the last half so that each point of hp from lifedrain/regen is extra effective

At the cost of saturation being bad

[heady robin]

Yeah it’s kind of the ultimate cheat really

[tight marten]

can we nuke all current tank viability but also implement ewrath in overworld

[manic wasp]

i love ewrath

they killed my old voodoo bonds support chaos codex 😔

[coral sphinx]

ewrath is kinda bad tank design tho u just press button the tank is just professional afker

[mossy ivy]

please dont nerf armor scaling just make steadfast not ridiculous

[desert ore]

I think armor scaling nerf is an inevitable thing eventually, personally

esp as items keep getting added resulting in builds steadily approaching the worst case scenario for minmax tank build having 1000+ ehp

So for me, it’s more of a question of how it will happen, ideally I’d prefer it not affect normal use cases and only kick in for extreme scenarios where ppl are approaching silly numbers like 100 defense

A lot of the problems in both this thread and the other one kinda boil down to “exponents r bad for balance”

for delve mods it’s interactions resulting in exponential damage and enemy spawnrates

For players its exponential stat gain resulting in ridiculously large values

[heady robin]

I imagine one way of doing a softcap would be "each armor past X gives 0.97x, past Y 0.98x, past Z 0.99x" etc

[south ingot]

Yes something like no penalty up to xx armor otherwise sqrt(xx)*sqrt(armor) (or any other decaying formula)

[south prism]

halved in effectiveness after level 40 and halved again after 70

[mossy ivy]

40 is way too low what

[desert ore]

It depends on how future proof you wanna be i guess

[south ingot]

90% DR (56 armor, 200EHP/20hearts) seems like a reasonable tax-free zone

[desert ore]

Given a healing nerf is also being looked at in the other thread

I think something like a mix of linear + logarithmic scaling might work

So that early levels of defense give more value but fall off when stacked while not also becoming completely worthless to keep adding more defense

(For gallery)

If we’re losing a bunch of healing glassier builds will be even glassier so this would offset it slightly

[mossy ivy]

55 : 3%
70 : 2%

could work

[heady robin]

Out of curiosity this is "1 armor counts as 0.5 armor past 50, and 0.25 armor past 75" graphed for 20 max hp ehp

[frosty flame]

😒

[desert ore]

How about something like regionalcoefficient * 10 / (10 + defense stat) for DR

set regional coefficient to 2 for r1, 1.5 for r2, 2 for r3

20 r1 defense results in 60 ehp, 30 r2 defense results in 120 ehp, 50 r3 defense results in 240 ehp as starting points

Mmm 100 defense puts you at 440 ehp in r3

Any1 got any squishy builds i can plug in

[heady robin]

What does this value represent exactly

[desert ore]

Bleh starting over sorry

[heady robin]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/262010576295821312/1292946049056510093/augh.gif

[desert ore]

Its for linear damage scaling, your damage taken would be divided by that much

So the full dmg formula is basedmg / regional coefficient * 10 / (10 + defense)

Idk how this performs at lower levels of defense for a given region

May need to insert a log component so glass builds arent too glassy

[open niche]

Mastering the defense scaling formula (The lossus of Chaos tears me in half regardless)

[desert ore]

bis r2 agility dmg has 23.5 defense and 25 hp

Plugging that in…

Er

I think i typed that out formula out wrong somewhere

Let me figure out where i made a mistake one second

[south ingot]

shrug

[manic wasp]

c being cutoff?

[south ingot]

Yes, also the scaling factor if you want to do the same for r1/r2

[desert ore]

1 / 1.5 * 10 / (10+23.5) * 25 hp = 125 ehp hm

ok regional coefficient doesnt work, that’s too linear

[south ingot]

An issue in all these suggestions would be how the cutoff(s) might change from powercreep, so maybe a fully continous calculation would be more future proof

[desert ore]

Yes that is what im trying to do rn

[manic wasp]

why dont you interpolate between a fully exponential function (current) and a linear or diminishing function

although that would make the equation look terrible

[desert ore]

I suggest u actually read my msgs maybe

[mossy ivy]

please dont linear

consider how hard the armor is to get

[desert ore]

monkey pawl curls, it's logarithmic now

[silver thicket]

i had a rework idea for second wind that i think would make it more interesting while still preserving its synergy with current builds

-Second Wind (Rework): Taking damage equal to or exceeding x% of your maximum health multiplies all damage taken by .9%^LVL until health is recovered to the threshold this effect was triggered or until x seconds have passed. This effect cannot stack.

it should probably have a semi short duration

[knotty ravine]

i’m gonna be real i think most hits are 15%

[silver thicket]

the number i threw there isnt really the point

for clarity if it was procced within its active duration it would just overwrite the threshold as it does not stack

[ancient kiln]

Damn i wish

Most hits feel to me like 45%

[celest pelican]

scout speech bubble

[knotty ravine]

most hits are *more than 15% mb

[ancient kiln]

cee zee

[manic wasp]

me who support earth

[celest pelican]

earth... gigachad

[silver thicket]

about how much effective armor is it to have 95% damage reduction?

[mossy ivy]

1.256

[silver thicket]

?

[wooden sable]

~73.5 (more specifically, 73.385)

[wooden sable]

They asked for DR%, not % Damage Taken

[silver thicket]

i do personally play a couple builds for r3 warrior that surpass 90% damage reduction

the guardian set i've had fun with in particular sporting like a little over 95% against melee in the best case

[wooden sable]

90% DR is much easier to achieve, especially with the existance of protection and situational enchants

[silver thicket]

yea for sure

[mossy ivy]

oh

[silver thicket]

it isnt to be biased but i do honestly worry if theoretical soft cap changes would deal significant harm to my playstyle

at least playing like max point that sort of bulk with mega slow attack speed feels mandated

[mossy ivy]

i mean in overworld if that were to take into effect

it would make tanking much more harder

in a pure tank build

[silver thicket]

its like 3 tank pieces (2 still have damage anyway r3 item design moment)

[wooden sable]

@silver thicket If you want a general equation for the amount of armor/agility needed for a given DR% (assuming no armor-agility mixing or enchants), solve the equation 1 - y = 0.96^x, where y is the DR% and x is the amount of armor/agility

[desert ore]

Not necessarily no

[silver thicket]

tyyy im bad with complex math <3

[desert ore]

These hypothetical changes arent being done in isolation

There’s 3 different feedback threads going over 3 different components for a reason

[mossy ivy]

make damage infusions mult with gear

easy

[wooden sable]

You can also treat a protection level as 2 armor/agility without mixing and a fragility level as -2 armor/agility without mixing

[silver thicket]

ya ik that much at least but ty ;3

[mossy ivy]

situs are also 3/6

[desert ore]

Notably, a bunch of delve mods are getting nerfed and then having caps applied to prevent exponential runaway interactions

[mossy ivy]

i think the problem is also you being able to deal damage on a tank set because dmg infusions are additive now

so you get like 100% magic dmg on a tank set

[desert ore]

That sounds like a build issue

[mossy ivy]

no you just get 35 from threadbound

10 from cocoon

and like 55 from infusions

[wooden sable]

I mean, a lot of tanky pieces so happens to come with small amounts of damage stats, and additive changes benefits tankier builds

[mossy ivy]

which is 360% damage

[ancient kiln]

yea or threadbound

which is tanky with metric fuckton of damage

[mossy ivy]

which btw without infusions turns into a glassy set

[wooden sable]

💀
Add more items with ineptitude, they seem to have extraordinary amounts of stat budget!

[mossy ivy]

cowl aradian energized tome is 105%

[ancient kiln]

cloak is a bit overrated tbh

[mossy ivy]

but threadbound cocoon full persp is 90%

💀

[ancient kiln]

ineptitude is very real

[wooden sable]

Alchemist:
Rogue:
Probably most melee classes:

[desert ore]

I dont think that many builds can just ignore increased cds?

[silver thicket]

like what play berserker or smth

[ancient kiln]

rogue ironically is the class that cannot ignore inept

[silver thicket]

nothing else comes to mind that gets inept unscathed

[desert ore]

Brute force stack or gb spam probably get the closest

[wooden sable]

It honestly doesn't really feel any different with or without aptitude, so I assume the same can be said about ineptitude

[knotty ravine]

mscout?

[ancient kiln]

idk for me it does

a lot

[ancient kiln]

whirl

[desert ore]

Your aoe and mobility both get kneecapped

[wooden sable]

No?

[desert ore]

which part of mscout’s aoe is not on a cooldown again

[wooden sable]

Like, ~10-11% CD increase does not do much for an ability with a 6s CD

[ancient kiln]

and thats where you would be incorrect

because of how rounding works

its now 6.75s

[coral sphinx]

flame spirit lole

[silver thicket]

Buh!

the pesky spawner break abil:

[wooden sable]

Does it even matter? Practically, the ability just recharges by the time you reach the next encounter anyway. I say this in regards to <= 25 pts of R3 content

[coral sphinx]

i think the solution is to further nerf stoneborn 💔

[ancient kiln]

last time i played mscout in high pts without whirl you have mid asf damage

[wooden sable]

I said <= 25 pts

[ancient kiln]

yea ig

even in 25pts whirl is your everything

[coral sphinx]

isnt mscout without whirl just like 20% atk spd and like 70% from fully charmed swift cuts or sum

[desert ore]

A number of delve mods result in encounters having their length significantly increased

[ancient kiln]

also ee vuln

but yes

[knotty ravine]

60%

[coral sphinx]

oh yeah

[desert ore]

The longer you spend in combat with no downtime the more painful it is to have cds increased

[knotty ravine]

and it’s like 25% atkspd now sad

[wooden sable]

With <= 25 pts, you have a lot of leeway in what mods you can choose

[coral sphinx]

i mean okay but you could have like 60pt and just not pick legionary 5

[ancient kiln]

mscout only selling point is aoe i think

[hallow fjord]

mscouts selling point is stun spam

[coral sphinx]

yeah

[ancient kiln]

that too

this only cements the point of cds being important

[hallow fjord]

one hit one kill every mob and use mass stunning to defeat crowds

[ancient kiln]

onehit every mob part fail

[hallow fjord]

I always found it weird how scout has more impactful debuffs then warlock does

[desert ore]

I dont consider those items to be issues personally

[wooden sable]

It really depends. If you are dealing with lower-point content, CDs matter much less. You will clear the encounter by the time the penalty from ineptitude matters at all. I, however, can agree that it will become more painful in higher-point content

[desert ore]

you still have to trade away bits of ehp for them

[hallow fjord]

like warlock has one stun on a 30 second cooldown

[ancient kiln]

issue is armor becomes much better with every point you have in it

gets funny with situationals that are in given situation perma active

[desert ore]

For reference, using threadbound as a measuring point

[bleak kraken]

paladin alch

[wooden sable]

Erm, everyone knows that the Law of DiminishingIncreasing Marginal Utility must be followed

[desert ore]

If you could acquire 5 pieces of armor similar to threadbound putting you at 75 def, you’d still have half the ehp of a full tank build

[ancient kiln]

and you still would have enough ehp to tank all content in the game with few exceptions

[desert ore]

We’ll ignore the +50% cds there

[desert ore]

It might be less than half actually

x5 pieces of threadbound would put you at ~400 ehp and +175% magic dmg

[wooden sable]

...

[ancient kiln]

alchemists must be happy

[desert ore]

For reference, agility buzz warrior floats around 400 ehp and +168% melee dmg without the ineptitude 10, in exchange for needing to constantly get hit

[ancient kiln]

thats situstack with bblood?

[desert ore]

Yes

Eth stack

But thats also bcuz its has x1.2 hp

Its more like 300 ish without warrior passives

And your effective hp cries just a bit

[bleak kraken]

What is the point of these what ifs

[desert ore]

There were some claims threadbound was overstat’d

And i was giving reference points for how normal builds vs actual full tank builds compare

[bleak kraken]

it is if you compare it to other slots

but you're not meant to do that

[silver thicket]

idk if it was explicitly stated anywhere that slot base balancing was a thing

[ancient kiln]

it is overstatted on classes inept does not matter for

eg alch

but otherwise its fine

[desert ore]

Anyway my point is

However strong your “tanky build using strong items with dmg” build looks like

We dont really particularly care, they still dont match up

[ancient kiln]

the issue arent items

defense scaling is

[desert ore]

As new items keep getting added, the ehp cap approaches looking like a full set of gallery tank items

At 100 defense you have 1180 or so ehp

[white canyon]

I dont think we're ever reaching 100 def

[desert ore]

and we’re significantly closer to 100 defense being achievable now than we were initially

[bleak kraken]

you can kinda tell it exists naturally

[white canyon]

probably 70 max

[desert ore]

We went way over 70 ages ago

[white canyon]

are you just counting situationals being active?

[desert ore]

Yes?

Why would you not count a 100% active effect as being active

[white canyon]

are you talking about steadfast?

[desert ore]

That is one of them yes

[white canyon]

I just don't consider situationals like they're always active

[desert ore]

Lootrunning builds generally sacrifice ehp for speed normally but

If you wanted to just solely concentrate on being incapable of dying

You could for example run reflexthereal stack

https://odetomisery.vercel.app/builder/m=Blightblood Falchion-4&o=Echoes of Ru'Ten-4&h=Bismuth Mask-4&c=Crimson Ribcage-4&l=EX Soulmire Walkers-4&b=Souls of Silver-4&charm=None

90 defense, 912/840/714/840 ehp

[white canyon]

ye but obviously in the same instance

you could just as easily get 1 shot because non of the situationals could be active

and if you dont you're losing 90% of your ehp

[desert ore]

That situation is so unlikely i dont consider it reasonable to assume

like

[ancient kiln]

humble first hit from 3 mobs around

[desert ore]

If you seriously ask me to consider “but what if reflexes dont activate” i will clown you

[silver thicket]

the singular arcanic carapace mob

[white canyon]

you dont think an arcanic mob can deal more than 75 dmg?

[silver thicket]

you're not asking me that right

[white canyon]

and even then, that build might be immortal but it'd likely be horrible for clearing if it wasn't for certain other issues

[desert ore]

Without ethereal active you still run 400 ehp

That build is not for clearing

I dont know why you’re bringing up clearing at all whatsoever

[white canyon]

was rhetorically asking LucentGlow

[silver thicket]

ya jus making sur ty

[white canyon]

Just because then the build has no real use

[desert ore]

Sir

Have you forgotten what thread we’re in

[white canyon]

well people are talking about steadfast builds being used to clear cz faster than others

[desert ore]

multiple points can exist within a topic

[white canyon]

my point is that its not soo much a steadfast/situational issue as it is other minor stuff that enables those builds

like infusions giving +50% dmg

and certain abilities just having bloated damage allowing the semi tank builds to just kill everything

and sapper on adze

[desert ore]

which have all been discussed

and pointed out

And addressed

But i’m not talking about any of those currently

[white canyon]

and in any instance where for instance the build doesnt have enough damage to clear the mobs around it

[desert ore]

or interested in repeating those conversations either

[white canyon]

being "immortal" really doesnt help

and even that immortal part is a big if

unless you use a lot of potions

[desert ore]

Again i have no idea why clearing the mobs is relevant

[celest pelican]

what is the purpose of that build

[desert ore]

It was purely a showcase of high ehp can be pushed if needed

[white canyon]

I guess its relevant depending on the context

[desert ore]

Which atm isnt needed

[white canyon]

but generally if you dont have clear, you'll also be in more danger from the amount of mobs attacking you

[desert ore]

Lootrunning already achieves effective immortality by just outrunning everything way before that point

[celest pelican]

what if enemies started dealing true dmg

[desert ore]

the issues involving that with spawners not repriming and mobs despawning have also already been brought up too

[silver thicket]

yea i think the main painpoints with spawner rush isnt even necessarily how tanky you can get at the end of the day its moreso the other stuff previously discussed i feel

[white canyon]

are you talking about non cz lootrunning?

[desert ore]

all of those other things have already been discussed to death

[silver thicket]

because yeah honestly reaching absurd ehp values basically serves to enable next to nothing in this game

[silver thicket]

im including it yea

[white canyon]

question was for LucentGlow regarding this

[silver thicket]

er sorry

buh!

[white canyon]

in my opinion the only content that really has actual "lootrunning" is dungeons

[silver thicket]

yea because they have 0 protections to enforce playing them or engaging with the mobs

it at the very least is at its purest form there

[celest pelican]

zenith lootrunning is just speedrunning tbh

[desert ore]

It’s not just lootrunning

Though lootrunning probably showcases the problem I’m trying to point out

Have you been paying attention to damage mechanics in content releases over the long term

[white canyon]

wdym by damage mechanics

[desert ore]

Hexfall just one shots you in lieu of doing damage, for a lot of attacks and you have set lives instead

Hunts has banish/spoil mechanics

Godspore has Vitality

Vesp Corruption

Noir boss also corruption

[ancient kiln]

if you kill mobs and break spawners is that a lootrun

[desert ore]

etc

[white canyon]

ye but how does that relate to situational stacking sets

[ancient kiln]

that is more instaheal influence i think

[desert ore]

The problem that resulted in the increasing reliance on gimmick specific alternative hp mechanics

Is that however much damage they deal, you can just build tankier and than immediately full heal via pots between attacks

[white canyon]

so you think those gimmicks exist because of situational tank sets?

[desert ore]

and there is a lot of leeway to just keep building increasingly tankier due to ehp scaling exponentially

So they just dont bother at all

[desert ore]

Healing is also a huge problem but that is its own thread right now

[silver thicket]

i feel like most of these bosses present enough threat outside of these mechanics to say that these mechanics were likely not made for the sole purpose of countering tank sets

[desert ore]

If you want to talk about that problem, go talk about it there

[silver thicket]

i feel like its r3 now and standards for boss mechanics have just increased

[desert ore]

This thread is specifically about the ehp side of things

[white canyon]

theres also the most important mmorpg mechanic of optimizing your own spent time

[desert ore]

This was explicitly a stated goal of hunts having stuff like banish/spoil mechanics

Directly quoted from the devs involved

[white canyon]

how does banish and spoil counter tank playstyles though

[desert ore]

The recent buff to frostbite meter was explicitly because that fight is trivialized by being sufficient tanky, for example

[silver thicket]

i think on paper its fairly obvious but idk its whatever

"counter" in the most literal sense of "you cannot sit afk and do nothing"

[desert ore]

the devs were understandably not particularly happy you can full on afk fights in some scenarios

Anyway

Part of why this conversation is happening is that healing nerfs are looking pretty likely

[coral sphinx]

in theory they do counter it but in practice not at all

[silver thicket]

yea idk how to describe it

[desert ore]

And the somewhat obvious alternative to being able to heal less, would be to make your heals more valuable with more DR

[silver thicket]

im trying to put it into words

but i cant

maybe you can

[coral sphinx]

most the banishes are like

do one step

afk the rest of the fight

[silver thicket]

right its not like they're dps checks or anything

like yes it would one shot a tank build but

that doesn't like really change anything

[desert ore]

They were experiments at doing it in a variety of ways that arent a dps check

[coral sphinx]

uamiel u drink a pot afk, core elemental ire up hit it and afk, shulker .. afk perma, hawk take fall dmg and like walk around