The Actual Causes Underneath the Lootrunning Consequence

[ancient kiln]

instantly heal then cant heal from pots for next 60s

[mossy ivy]

bruh thats not it

[ancient kiln]

nah thats it

[mossy ivy]

basically a 60s pi cd?

[ancient kiln]

pi or ih pots

yea

[mossy ivy]

ok no

[ancient kiln]

why

[mossy ivy]

i get where ur coming from

but i think its going to cause too much situations

where it would be bad

[rigid moat]

terraria also doesnt have you take chip damage very often

[ancient kiln]

does it not really

[mossy ivy]

also idk how terraria works can we please make it understandable for ppl who dont play it

[rigid moat]

basically just bossfights

[mossy ivy]

first of all

idk why they reworked pi in the first place

[rigid moat]

what was it b4

[ancient kiln]

pi is not a problem, pi is an enabler

[mossy ivy]

pi exclusive potions

[rigid moat]

ic

[mossy ivy]

i think it was 1ccs per pot for either str regen or haste speed?

[rigid moat]

haste 💀

[mossy ivy]

just make instant health pots 5x harder to get

like idk why that wouldnt be the solution

[ancient kiln]

idk why that would be a solution

i can buy them even if they cost 10x

[mossy ivy]

if u want to use pi and spend 1 har for 4 pots ur kinda like

making it not worth

[zinc kraken]

if you can't understand a 60-second cooldown I have no idea how you play Monu

[mossy ivy]

why not just drink casino and reynart pots atp

[rigid moat]

that would just make high difficulty content more inaccessible for new players

[ancient kiln]

the probelm is pots directly affect game design

insta heal is the reason why hycenea is like that

[mossy ivy]

if pots are too expensive no one will expect you to use them

[ancient kiln]

and a lot more bosses just oneshot you with most attacks

inb4 cz a17 1/4 must be rich enough to use ii

[white canyon]

Isn't that kind of just saying, you can't fix something being broken op because then new players can't abuse it to make the game easy

[mossy ivy]

me when i lootrun and lose money

[ancient kiln]

found new har sink

ofc you would use less pots in lr

well

no pots

but for challenging content you would still buy

thats the issue

it does not matter if i pi in lfg mr 6pts

[rigid moat]

most people don't feel the need to min max to the point of abusing it

[ancient kiln]

it matters because difficult content must be designed with accounting for player being able to press a button and waow max hp

[white canyon]

and you're saying new players would and that's why it shouldn't be the case?

[rigid moat]

i hardly even use mine, just pull it out for some content and pray it has pots in it

[mossy ivy]

i use it because if i dont ill be at a disadvantage

[ancient kiln]

well yes

and if there were a fuckton of cd on it why would that be bad

you cant really crutch on it its not an option if we do that

but if we just price up well

first of all people have like infinite barrels of ih already

[rigid moat]

i'm saying that if you make pots worse, the content balanced around meta players using pots will become nigh impossible without external help

[ancient kiln]

second it does not fix the issue of you being able to outheal everything if you left click enough

[zinc kraken]

content shouldn't be balanced around those people

next prompt

[ancient kiln]

terraria healing sickness maybe not the best option but price increase is not even a bandaid

[rigid moat]

💀

[zinc kraken]

what?

am I wrong?

[ancient kiln]

removing a8-18 rn

cya hexfall and sskt

[white canyon]

that argument kind of just applies to everything at any time

[zinc kraken]

SSKT is incredibly doable without meta players usin' pots

no points for guessin' how I know this

[white canyon]

obviously if you nerf something its going to make it harder for both groups of players

[ancient kiln]

sskt is soloable now ofc

[mossy ivy]

im thinking common ih pots get reworked rare ones stay

[white canyon]

what should be talked about is which is effected more

[ancient kiln]

which rare ones tho

like shulker soul level rare

[mossy ivy]

pots that dont drop from poi and dungeon

so you need to go out of ur way to buy

[ancient kiln]

i mean

[mossy ivy]

and also obviously increase npc price

[ancient kiln]

i could buy 999 heal pots from npc rn

then you will roll the update and i'll keep pi'ing

[fluid gate]

if ur in a solo run, u also get the cdrate amp so yes u can get ur spark back within 5 second.

[ancient kiln]

also those are same pots if we talking buy with ar

[mossy ivy]

no those pots should be reworked

since they drop from poi and dungeon

[ancient kiln]

i still didnt saw why would we not just put big cd on instaheal instead of making rich more privileged

[knotty ravine]

i’m gonna be 100% real with you. i do not use instant health at all in my playstyles (of which many have been uploaded as examples) and i do just fine, if it was completely shot i don’t see why game balance would be affected outside of extreme areas like high ascension CZ and 65pt and loot running

and we want to shoot 65pt and loot running either way so whats the issue?

[rigid moat]

that doesnt make it a bad argument

[knotty ravine]

high ascension CZ of course needs rebalancing but i don’t think it’s the “whole game sweeping rebalance” that people claim it would need to be

[zinc kraken]

I mean

[ancient kiln]

i mean i'd say normal base mobs dont really need rebalance even with no instaheal

[zinc kraken]

we've heard TM explain it to be that sort of game-wide rebalance, too

[ancient kiln]

but delve scaling could be toned down

not majorly but some amount

and cz aswell

[white canyon]

toned down?

[ancient kiln]

yea

less hp dmg gain per point

[white canyon]

as in nerf higher delve point difficulty?

[zinc kraken]

no more abominable Isles delve scalin'

[ancient kiln]

so

cap would be same

but per point increase will be less

high points stay as is but current 25pts stat cap is achieved at like

35pt

[white canyon]

how does that solve anything related to the post

[ancient kiln]

that isnt related to the post thats just hypotetical changes after removing/cding instaheal

which is related to the post

[white canyon]

do you then believe lootrunning in CZ solely exists because of instaheals?

[ancient kiln]

no

but they are one of enablers

one of but not the only reason

[elder valve]

ngl IH pots can stay if they are unable to be purchased with a normal currency (shulker pots), or if they drop from content

and the ones that can be purchased with not hard to get mats, like the ones from drask, be nerfed

[celest pelican]

this does not address the issue at hand, this is very bandaid since you just make people pay more

[knotty ravine]

it doesn’t, i was replying to a comment saying that IH being nerfed would necessitate the reworking of all content by arguing that it would actually only need reworking high ascension cz

[white canyon]

ye that makes sense

[celest pelican]

side note, nerfing instaheals is one of the easier things to do without chaging too much of the overall game just for the sake of nerfing lootrunning

[knotty ravine]

it would also hit lootrunning, but i also argue that that’s a positive side effect

[zinc kraken]

you say this

[elder valve]

or just add terraria healing sickness but its 30s and gives -healing to using an instant health potion in general (in or out of PI/II)

[zinc kraken]

but surely the Injectors wouldn't be such a popular purchase if this were truly the case

would they?

[ancient kiln]

instaheals removal will also unlock better boss design imo

potentially

[celest pelican]

I think insta heals should just go

[knotty ravine]

no more stupid “health bar #2” creeping death

[ancient kiln]

either go or be on long ass cd

ruten is actually one of better bosses even with that

[elder valve]

if you try to use an IH pot with healing sickness, you take that % health as damage

[ancient kiln]

hycenea is a prime example

[rigid moat]

what about regen pots

[zinc kraken]

frankly I think percentage-based insta heals on potions are

extremely difficult to make sensible to balance ever

[white canyon]

Also in my opinion HP aren't too big an issue but I'd probably be fine with a longer term less effective healing debuff similar to what was mentioned in the post

[elder valve]

there are maybe 5 sources of regen that last longer than a minute

i'd have to look but i can't be bothered to open mc and go to my plot

[knotty ravine]

i would put up a poll but yknow i don’t have the perms to do it

asking when injectors are used

• i dont use injectors
• i use injectors only in high ascension cz
• i use injectors only in lootrunning
• i use injectors only in high point
• all three or some combination of above
• i use injectors in normal content

[elder valve]

i think if you have to use injectors in normal content, theres something wrong

[white canyon]

I think there's just faulty item balance that promotes lootrunning builds

like infusions being way more effective on tank builds

[zinc kraken]

the biggest question I have, now that I think about it, is this

I've heard a good few people bitchin' and moanin' about how steak shouldn't be better than an epic potion (Forgeflame nerf), right

so allow me to apply a similar question:

[white canyon]

also infusions giving the same amount of damage bonus despite being different damage types ( you get same amount of magic damage as attack damage, despite them being weighted differently on items )

sapper should probably get life drain treatment and generally just be nerfed on pureshard adze

[zinc kraken]

why is a silly little potion category that can drop from any content in the world better, save for with my Berry Basket in the Ring, than my Heart of the Jungle

[white canyon]

and then probably also a small flame spirit nerf

[knotty ravine]

adze could just lose it’s eff 1 imo

price to pay for sapper 3

[ancient kiln]

the humble haste

[ancient kiln]

both can be bullshit

not mutually exclusive

[elder valve]

branch of life users are sobbing (they do not exist)

[ancient kiln]

gpt potion change is bad

instaheals are bad

[white canyon]

I mean if the enchant got adjusted they'd probably balance all sapper picks accordingly

[knotty ravine]

idt there’s a point in making sapper sqrt scaling since it’s not like ld which appears on armour too

[celest pelican]

now it would be slower than earthshaker

[knotty ravine]

if adze sapper 3 is too much healing then it would just have to be sapper 2

[white canyon]

soo I'm more so just asking for adze nerfs

[knotty ravine]

with you on that one

[compact spoke]

funilly enough already planned

[white canyon]

ye thats to be expected

[zinc kraken]

exCUSE you I used Branch of Life before I got Earthshaker

[compact spoke]

well, at least an overview of r3 pickaxes, wont say more on the specifics

[zinc kraken]

it's peam

[ancient kiln]

specifics are kinda already said i think

[white canyon]

now that I think about it

[zinc kraken]

me when I heal myself for 4 hearts after breakin' one spawner

the caveat with Branch of Life and its monstrous Sapper VIII (8) is that it is extremely slow

[white canyon]

sapper could just have an internal cooldown and it'd be a nice lootrunning targeted nerf

[elder valve]

my condelence

[zinc kraken]

that slowness is why I eventually got Earthshaker

not nearly as potent on heals but it actually breaks more than one spawner per minute

[elder valve]

dioneas graft

[zinc kraken]

I've never actually tried Graft

[elder valve]

but uh yeah

[zinc kraken]

I should try it sometime, I think

[elder valve]

I don't think sqrt sapper is the way to go

[zinc kraken]

it seems like a fun item

[elder valve]

i think the better way is to sw it, (unless its also sqrt)

[rigid moat]

maybe w a second pick

[celest pelican]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/575516687676211215/1246914909871280239/spawner_speeds.gif

[zinc kraken]

square root Sapper is
not it, I don't think

[rigid moat]

one to heal, another 4 fastbreak

[celest pelican]

hotbar slots are limited

[elder valve]

people already complain about hotbar space lmfak

[zinc kraken]

(sqrt Sapper would make Branch of Life even more ass than it already is unless it gets upgraded to like stone or something)

[celest pelican]

what is the point of making sapper sqrt

[ancient kiln]

me with my dew and fol as only food in hotbar in cz

started dying of starvation after those changes

[white canyon]

@zinc kraken

[elder valve]

mfw you have to use actual food instead of buffs

[zinc kraken]

me havin' no idea how people run like 6 consumables in hotbar when I only have space for my trusty HotJ and GDC

[rigid moat]

GDC?

[ancient kiln]

mfw when we make 50 har epic pot worse than steak

[zinc kraken]

I mean yeah but like

how do you make Branch of Life good with sqrt Sapper

[zinc kraken]

mfw silly potion that drops from any content ever is already better than HotJ

[elder valve]

hm yes, 15 hunger/sat on a 27s cd

[ancient kiln]

did i say that is good

[ancient kiln]

and how much is steak with no cd then

[celest pelican]

isn't it 12 now

[ancient kiln]

now yes

[elder valve]

no idea

[zinc kraken]

only as much as you can eat

[elder valve]

my hunger bar go up

[zinc kraken]

which, if you're keepin' an eye on your hunger bar, isn't much

[white canyon]

sapper L ( 50 )

[white canyon]

but more likely this would be a better solution

[celest pelican]

you can't really use forgeflame when you partially are missing hp

[rigid moat]

also if pots get nerfed, whats stopping sat stacking

[zinc kraken]

I think the biggest advantage Forgeflame has compared to normal food is and always has been that you don't have to be hungry to drink it

[ancient kiln]

steak is 12.8 sat

[celest pelican]

sat stacking ins't as crazy as insta heals

[ancient kiln]

if google is to be trusted

so now you have overtime LESS sat and hunger on CD than fucking steak

even if you can drink it with full hunger that is not worth

[zinc kraken]

Forgeflame still gives more hunger

[elder valve]

sat stacking is only really good with sus levels

[celest pelican]

forgeflame is still decent since you can eat it before a fight

[elder valve]

you can drink ff whenever

[ancient kiln]

literally does not matter

sat heals not hunger

[zinc kraken]

:v

why did you bring it up in the first place if it doesn't matter

[ancient kiln]

well

[celest pelican]

I never eat food for hunger

[ancient kiln]

hunger could be forgotten in both honestly lol

they both give more than enough

[zinc kraken]

meanwhile it's basically the only reason for me

[coral sphinx]

sapper curse of exhaustion or whatever the pickaxe curse suggestion was called would b cool for that specifically to target lootrunners and not affect normal gameplay much

[zinc kraken]

aside from occasional heal from HotJ

because GDC has no other effects and HotJ resistance isn't a real effect

[coral sphinx]

the cd thing

[rigid moat]

what is GDC

[knotty ravine]

GCD

[zinc kraken]

fuck it's GCD not GDC

blowin' myself up instantly

[ancient kiln]

global cooldown

[knotty ravine]

also why aren’t you using like fotc

[zinc kraken]

I don't have Fruits of the Catch :(

[celest pelican]

why would you use that thing

[zinc kraken]

and I don't have enough rares to gamba for it

[ancient kiln]

when you run like 12 pts max it doesnt really matter anyway

[celest pelican]

isn't lamb chop better than that

[ancient kiln]

you can eat 7 grain

and still it gonna work\

idk

[celest pelican]

lamb chop...

[ancient kiln]

i really dont want to spend on flex item but since now its not flex i have to

[zinc kraken]

does Fruits of the Catch have a cooldown

[ancient kiln]

no

[rigid moat]

no

[zinc kraken]

also which fish is it again

I fogor

I wanna say salmon but I don't know if that's right

[ancient kiln]

cooked salmon

6 hunger 9.6 sat

[zinc kraken]

...that's kinda insane, actually

[ancient kiln]

25% decrease from steak

but you get entire 10% res for entire 8 seconds

[zinc kraken]

infinite no-CD cooked salmon that gives resistance as well?

[rigid moat]

mhm

[zinc kraken]

good lord that's good

[rigid moat]

synergizes well w weaker hunger pots

[ancient kiln]

its so good like 5 people used it in total

before

[zinc kraken]

me on my way to make that statistic 6 instead

[celest pelican]

Sliver is a expensive piece of meat that gives +30% kbr for 10s...

[zinc kraken]

[sterile holly]

I made it as filler for people that did not have sliver

[ancient kiln]

i am now delegated to poor category

smh

[zinc kraken]

gives a more useful secondary effect than Sliver at a far cheaper price so very worth tbh

[sterile holly]

Sliver was made only as a pure money sink, i added the secondary effect way later just because it seemed fitting

And so it wasn't just a steak

[ancient kiln]

now its unironically

best food

lmao

[rigid moat]

but imagine if you are starving while standing at the edge of a cliff with a chiv mob coming towards you

[celest pelican]

Waiting for the day when we get an arrow with infinity

[zinc kraken]

honestly?

I think that's really funny

[ancient kiln]

it will work like hex eater on hf arrows

[zinc kraken]

silly item made as a pure money sink is now unironically the best infinite food in the game

[ancient kiln]

meaning not work

[celest pelican]

Always has been

[zinc kraken]

STILL waitin' for Hex Eater to be able to work with magic btw

[sterile holly]

I mean, you can just use actual steak aswell

[ancient kiln]

no

not anymore

there are ichors now

[celest pelican]

Steak ain't infinite

[rigid moat]

but FoTC doesnt have riceball hopeskin, therefore worse

[ancient kiln]

whatever

[celest pelican]

Also isn't something like twisted pomes technically the best food in the game

[ancient kiln]

i guess time has come for steak

[ancient kiln]

ambrosia

[celest pelican]

True

[ancient kiln]

pomes arent bad but

[celest pelican]

Society if there was a kapple upgrade turning it into a golden apple

[ancient kiln]

they unlike fflame and sliver dont replenish hunger nearly enough

can we upgr loom instead

[celest pelican]

Can be consumed whenever

Since they are golden apples

[rigid moat]

what would that be like

[ancient kiln]

yea but if you lost like 10 hunger

you have to eat 3

[celest pelican]

Toggle mode to swap betweem firm and loom

[ancient kiln]

50% chance to not spend blokcs

[rigid moat]

cool

[ancient kiln]

or faster cd

or firm loom

[celest pelican]

Remove cd

So I can fortnite twisteds

[zinc kraken]

finally. the epic build-off between uurik and a Twisted Sentinel

who will win

[ancient kiln]

gravity

[rigid moat]

dynamic loom mode w no cooldown = new class

[celest pelican]

[knotty ravine]

don’t you drop several stacks per zenith

[celest pelican]

yes, but some people don't play zenith

[mossy ivy]

drask doesnt even have healing pots but ok

[mossy ivy]

another reason why saturation nerf should be reverted

[elder valve]

idk

[heady robin]

Why is armor exponentially scaling anyways

[elder valve]

i haven't played in a week

[heady robin]

You’d think going to the extreme would have diminishing returns, not exponentially increasing returns

[mossy ivy]

no its just .96x regardless of how much you have

what would u even change

[heady robin]

0.96^x…

[mossy ivy]

yeah its .96x per defense point regardless of how much armor you have

i mean do you want to rework every single item

[heady robin]

Yeah this makes it exponential as each multiplication makes all subsequent ones more valuable

Your ehp scales with .96^-x

[mossy ivy]

i know how the formula works

but you cant just suddenly change it when different regions and stuff exist

its going to be like item rework v2 and probably out of scope of this thread

[heady robin]

Would having a soft cap at 40-50 affect different regions and stuff

[mossy ivy]

yes

[white canyon]

it also has to be exponential or else it makes building damage more effective

[mossy ivy]

i mean caps are generally not good design imo

[heady robin]

Are you sure

[elder valve]

me looking at the lootrunning set.

[mossy ivy]

yeah if you change it to be not exponential then you would have to do some major item reworks to the point that solving healing would seem easier

[heady robin]

What about this means it has to be exponential

[mossy ivy]

also consider that 50 armor is 153 ehp

which id consider a minimum for a build rn

if the build has no situs

[heady robin]

It’d definitely have to be higher

Just to take into account situationals/second wind/prots

[mossy ivy]

65 is 284 ehp

[mossy ivy]

also poise

and half situ effects

[celest pelican]

poise is a situational

what

[heady robin]

Would that not be… a situational…

[celest pelican]

I think situationals like steadfast shouldn't be given out so freely

[white canyon]

because then it just makes the incentive to build tankier non-existent

[heady robin]

But why would unlimited exponential scaling be necessary for that, if it even is necessary

[mossy ivy]

but works differently usually

[desert ore]

It’s when u have both steadfast and second wind together that problems happen, second wind’s guaranteed effect allows steadfast to activate without you dying turning it into not a situational anymore

[last goblet]

I’m thinking we should add more +max hp and decrease armor/agi
maybe the standard going from 20hp/50armor to 30-40hp/30-40armor

this does the following:

1. max hp is additive so you can’t effectively stack it unlike armor/agility
2. healing is less effective (except IH which I think everyone agree to nerf em)
3. Situationals are not as easy to get full 6 armor/agi because you need more to reach 30 armor/agi.
4. more linear handle to tweak with compared to a soft/hard cap or formula change

[desert ore]

Imma be honest, that would probably kill the game for a lot of ppl

Any class without access to % based healing will be forced to rely on kapple and a lot of sitting around between encounters for saturation to regen back up

It’s not really good design to make ppl wait a lot

[last goblet]

That’s true

[heady robin]

It’s interesting to think about I think

[desert ore]

Isn’t it a linear increase in ehp for each point of defense

[knotty ravine]

no it's multiplicative

[heady robin]

No, it gets better the more you have

[last goblet]

You could definitely slap some out of combat fast regen or sth but I think that just make the solutions not elegant

[desert ore]

?

[knotty ravine]

each point is marginally better than x1.04 ehp

[heady robin]

Besides saturation healing getting cut in half it would be fun to imagine regions going 20/30/40 hp, you can feel the progression and that bulk is more interactable instead of being hidden away as some damage resistance stat

Just hypothetical though I don’t think that should actually happen

[celest pelican]

Completing each dungeon grants player with +1 heart

Where have I seen that before

[last goblet]

Oh I actually meant more on gears not on the actual player
If you wear nothing you’d still have 20 hp
But not like it matters a whole lot

[knotty ravine]

if you look at ring gear you realise that some of the good tank stuff has max health on it (Primordial Treads, Samsara Vessel, The Hollow Rings, Immortal Flame)

[last goblet]

There are also some -hp gears

[knotty ravine]

just people dislike using max health gear

[celest pelican]

hp bloat tends to just slow down pacing

[knotty ravine]

but if you choose to use your one tank piece slot on it it's probably the most bang for your buck

[last goblet]

Yeah I agree that penalty being having to wait is not good
See shaman as an example

[knotty ravine]

How To Slow Down Pacing: A Guide In One Item

[celest pelican]

[desert ore]

At 20 hp,
1 defense = 20.83 ehp
2 defense = 21.70 ehp, +0.87
3 defense = 22.61 ehp, +0.90
50 defense = 153.98 ehp
100 defense = 1185 ehp

hm

[lunar cypress]

Fuck it lets just do terraria defense too, 1 armour = -1 damage

[last goblet]

Power of exponents

[desert ore]

That should probably have diminishing returns thrown in yeah

[celest pelican]

[ancient kiln]

agree but only if we get terraria bosses

[knotty ravine]

every 17 or 18 armor/agi is a doubling in ehp

i forgot the number 🔥

[last goblet]

Removes kbr as a stat
The more armor you have the less you get velocity change
No recoil, no dashes no kb

[desert ore]

that would be terrible

for so many reasons

[knotty ravine]

it's 17

[jade jetty]

can we please get a fast pickaxe im begging

[heady robin]

A fast pickaxe you say...

[jade jetty]

anyway mfw thread about underlying causes of lootrunning and i skim through all 1400 messages and everything people suggest is bandaid solutions

[grave tundra]

oracore’s messages attack the roots

[jade jetty]

yea

[grave tundra]

things have wildly spun off but the IH seems like the next obvious step to take

[jade jetty]

the next 1400 messages were kinda just mostly nothing

[celest pelican]

I rather not see huge reworks that might affect normal players negatively just to eliminate lootrunning

[jade jetty]

not whati had in mind

[heady robin]

Terraria healing sickness and DR softcap fr...

[jade jetty]

imo the biggest issue is near bis speed in r3 has higher ehp than average clearing sets because you need to stack so much damage to kill things even in non 65pt content

[tall linden]

What if we make PI insta hp more drag out
Instead of healing you instantly, it heals you over the course of 4-5s until reaching full effect.

[ancient kiln]

that is 4th such sugg in this thread

[celest pelican]

at that point just replace insta heals with reg...

[jade jetty]

iirc ppl used to use antidote for that and then balance devs killed it

maybe there was another reason idk about for that

[celest pelican]

antitodes couldn't remove higher levels of poison

[last goblet]

It’s now poison immunity

[grave tundra]

I think it was just because it was jank as hell trying to achieve its original purpose of clearing poison

[gritty laurel]

my reaper builds 😦

i think just Make healing sickness actually real

[open niche]

I see the vision for this , imagine having to work to hit the 30 agil/armor for situational scaling

R2 but awesome...

[grave tundra]

well that’d help in part but if healing is still really powerful if we just did that

the 40% ih + hot pots:::

[gritty laurel]

25%? 30%?

[grave tundra]

yeah something like that probably

and convert some to HoT

idk what to do about absorption but it needs to also be considered

[gritty laurel]

i only use absorption cuz reaper

[knotty ravine]

would yall consider implementing custom HoT instead of just vanilla regen

[grave tundra]

Ideally

although regen is flexible enough

[mossy ivy]

no

[grave tundra]

I’m sure we could get the plugin guys to write something for this though

[last goblet]

IH are % based so probably custom imo
Otherwise low max hp builds would be even better

[ancient kiln]

game pace will become game crawl

[open niche]

Wtf

Kang reacted

[heady robin]

(We already have custom heal over time effect capability)

[jade jetty]

i think suggestions like this ignore the fact that sitting there waiting for your health to tick up is really fucking boring

[ancient kiln]

^

[open niche]

Or u can assume saturation exploded for a more favorable healing system

But thats just dreaming

[ancient kiln]

you regen health fast if you eat but to eat you need to stand still for like 2.5s

[mossy ivy]

it cost one soul thread per

[grave tundra]

is the more favourable system in the room with us

[ancient kiln]

so if you managed that in battle you deserve the heal

[last goblet]

Yeah that’s the downside to the sug
I honestly don’t mind I just go in non full health anyways

[mossy ivy]

its 1 soul thread per for regen 3

u could literally spam it and sustain the cost

[open niche]

Idk if rot is still here

[ancient kiln]

only of brain variety

[open niche]

[jade jetty]

i think a solid 80% of my pi usage is just from not wanting to sit afk for 5s while i wait for my hunger to drop so i can eat

[heady robin]

What if we made it so that taking damage had doubled penalties on saturation and hunger

[jade jetty]

and the other 20% comes from overestimating my clear power and then realising its r3 i cant run away from the mobs

[mossy ivy]

no

that wont solve anything

[jade jetty]

do you mean something like the mobs that give hunger when they hit you?

[grave tundra]

I think he means doubling the hunger/sat cost for natural healing

[mossy ivy]

looking at this thread.. oh god its not just the balance team having terrible ideas

[open niche]

Nope clearly you cannot fathom my sheer awesomeness

[ancient kiln]

sooo healing -50% effect

[open niche]

[ancient kiln]

for x amount of seconds

[open niche]

Monumenta the New World

[heady robin]

No I mean the mechanic that exhausts some saturation when you take damage

[mossy ivy]

that would make gameplay worse

[jade jetty]

idt they're balance devs

[mossy ivy]

no

[ancient kiln]

saturation damage lol

[mossy ivy]

thats the point

[mossy ivy]

please no

thats terrible

you already spend so much time eating

[ancient kiln]

im ngl that would feel so weird

[heady robin]

It would be interesting to have hits whittle down stored up healing so you can't have too much while tanking through attacks I think

[open niche]

What if saturation healing only happened out of combat

[grave tundra]

more pi usage really

[ancient kiln]

you just made hotf only usable consumable

[mossy ivy]

i dont want to do a bit of combat in my eating gameplay

[grave tundra]

and if we kill pi you just chug pomes probably

[mossy ivy]

no

[ancient kiln]

imagine how fat is avg monumenta in game player

[last goblet]

ok so problem
if time cannot be the penalty of taking damage (you have to eat/wait to heal, etc)
what can be?

[ancient kiln]

literally eats every 15s

[mossy ivy]

pomes is closer to regen

[open niche]

Pome usage is insane i think thats a net win

[mossy ivy]

idk but i think time is already kinda bad

[grave tundra]

and that wouldnt be used as a replacement for pi ?

[mossy ivy]

because a lot of your gameplay is simply eating

[open niche]

Well its not as egregious is it

[grave tundra]

I think they totally would see a big increase in use

[mossy ivy]

and making it even worse would just be bad

[mossy ivy]

0 times something still 0

[jade jetty]

iwonder how long it would take me to eat through these if i started using them

[mossy ivy]

pomes cant save you from a bad decision as well as pi does

like its a better forgeflame

[last goblet]

well then how should we kill healing
if we don't want to take time and heal

[mossy ivy]

other ways

but not more time eating

[last goblet]

[mossy ivy]

if the only solution you have is more time eating

i think id rather not touch healing

[heady robin]

Perhaps epitome of "this should be fixed but not like that" I think 👽

[ancient kiln]

this should be fixed somehow

[mossy ivy]

there are other ways to fix it and more boring gameplay is not one of them

[grave tundra]

we are all ears

[ancient kiln]

make it happen i dont know how

[open niche]

Im all tears

[ancient kiln]

can confirm we are indeed all ears

[jade jetty]

i wish eating and spawner mining werent such big aspects of the game

[last goblet]

and typers

[jade jetty]

can we turn sliver into kelp but keep the hunger and saturation values the same

and can we bring back boreas mattock and give it worldly prot

[ancient kiln]

balans

[last goblet]

can we slash creative

[jade jetty]

i should apply for bvalance dewv

[open niche]

Monumenta without spawner is a pipe dream

[ancient kiln]

can i kill every mob with my mere aura

[ancient kiln]

actually nvm that was removed this balance patch

[mossy ivy]

they will never revert saturation nerf will they

blindly nerfing

[open niche]

Pr sure its the will of whatever dead God is inside the calculator

[ancient kiln]

on gpts? and fol

[open niche]

Gpt nerf was to be expected im gonna be real, fol not so much

[ancient kiln]

i do not see how fflame nerf is deserved

or fol

or dew sat and hunger

[mossy ivy]

yeah

[mossy ivy]

i dont either but its not getting reverted i think

because not a lot of ppl think much and just go oh well too bad

[mossy ivy]

idk how

[ancient kiln]

now i can justify sliver purchase!

[mossy ivy]

see this is the problem

they ignore gpt nerf and overide it with "omg sliver usage"

[ancient kiln]

which was btw supposed to be purely flex item

[mossy ivy]

sliver should obviously be worse but no one thinks about that

[open niche]

It is supposed to be a flex item, its glorified steak

[ancient kiln]

yes

but why is it suddenly bis

[mossy ivy]

yeah

[open niche]

Its... steak

[ancient kiln]

yes

[mossy ivy]

they just compared the price idfk

literally doesnt make sense

[ancient kiln]

and epic 50 har casino pot is supposed to be... better than steak

does that make sense

[jade jetty]

as a sliver main it shouldnt really be competitive with ppl using like 4 hotbar slots for consumables lmao

[mossy ivy]

^^^^^^

i dont get how ppl like it

[open niche]

Now you are intentionally increasing sources of saturation

And with their other side affects beyond just healing they are pretty strong, no?

[ancient kiln]

steak gives 13 saturation

just as a reminder

instantly may i add

[mossy ivy]

i use 3 hotbar slots i should get at least 2 hotbar slots of healing

and i dont even get 2 now

[celest pelican]

I don't even use fol for its damage

[last goblet]

maybe the gpt potions are
you know
potions

[mossy ivy]

i used to get 2 by spending 3 slots and eating 3 times as much

[open niche]

See this is why i lowkey dont like FoL nerf

[ancient kiln]

ok fair

[mossy ivy]

now its not even 2 its like 1.6

[ancient kiln]

cap the hunger and sat harder but

increase the effects?

[jade jetty]

i could understand forgeflame nerf if they also slightly buffed other consumables to redistribute their power but just blanket nerfing them i cant understand

[mossy ivy]

they would never do that lmao

[ancient kiln]

also fflame in particular

whats its effect

[mossy ivy]

see dew

they also wanted to nerf the effect as well

[ancient kiln]

what are you using it for if not sat

forgeflame was never op

[celest pelican]

dew was not a straight nerf

[ancient kiln]

dew was not but then they also hit sat and hunger

so now it is

[mossy ivy]

but the developer notes say they wanted to nerf or smth i think

[open niche]

Gossip told me it was a buff for certain classes mdew cdr changes

[celest pelican]

they wanted to make it healthier for game balance

[ancient kiln]

it is a buff

[open niche]

I dont use mdew personally

[ancient kiln]

for some classes

for some its not

[mossy ivy]

only good on arcanist with how good moonblade is rn and how its the only way to play the class

[desert ore]

Breaking a spawner while none of its mobs are alive should be faster

😭

[mossy ivy]

and for other classes it either doesnt change or doesnt matter

[ancient kiln]

might be related to warrior main icon

[mossy ivy]

maybe save 1s on tene but thats tene

[open niche]

? Classism...

[celest pelican]

scout...

[mossy ivy]

no.

[last goblet]

spawner shield for each alive mob
👍

[desert ore]

I cant even be bothered to mine spawners in non-vital pathways in dgns anymore

[ancient kiln]

yes actually

scout is a big fat yes for new mdews

[mossy ivy]

its fun but i dont see anything practical

[desert ore]

Its so much fucking time wasted for no gameplay

[mossy ivy]

because you need to actually eat it

[celest pelican]

this thread is just gameplay discussion DLC

[ancient kiln]

you do it before some fucked up encounter

[ancient kiln]

its free shut up and take it

[mossy ivy]

idk i dont like it but whatever

they will never change it

i know that for sure

[celest pelican]

this is not what I wanted 😭

[mossy ivy]

they specifically wanted to remove instant cdr so

but please revert saturation nerfs

[ancient kiln]

dont believe that will happen ngl

[mossy ivy]

see we already all know it

and thats sad

[ancient kiln]

idk sat stack does not equal gpt people forget about that

[mossy ivy]

yeah isnt like

sliver bsb actually better

[ancient kiln]

13 sat steak:

[mossy ivy]

see i think the consumables variety was actually really good

before the changes

i mean everyone had their own preferences

[celest pelican]

is consuming elixir good

[mossy ivy]

before eating mungfish idk

[open niche]

Idk if anyone uses celixir save for a few sliver users (probably)

[mossy ivy]

they either use no starvation or just bsb(rare)

[wintry axle]

Cool then pi is finally factored into all content and not just edge case content like hf. And hit it with a 60s cd too and now we are talking

[ancient kiln]

this thread is a multiple laps race atp

[mossy ivy]

60s cooldown the best solution so far

[grave tundra]

cd would be on all self healing I'd imagine not just pi/ii

[spice onyx]

60s cd on instant health pots would be needed as well in this case

[wintry axle]

Yep shorthanded it

[grave tundra]

this is my take from last night

[spice onyx]

otherwise a basic shulker would just become the next pi 🔥

[grave tundra]

mind you 60s feels rather high as an out of the gate number

probably start at 20 or 30 in conjunction with other changes to the values on the pots themselves

[spice onyx]

honestly true, dont think anything higher than 20s is needed tbh

in that time you will either die, escape, or kill the remaining mobs either way (in most cases)

[mossy ivy]

only for ih/abs right

[grave tundra]

yeah

[ancient kiln]

yea

[grave tundra]

no reason it'd be for all pots

[mossy ivy]

ok i think just make that 25s

[ancient kiln]

number can be tweaked

[knotty ravine]

number should not be 60

[mossy ivy]

and nerf ih pots to 35% if 40 is too much?

[knotty ravine]

30% imo

[ancient kiln]

60 is too much yea

[grave tundra]

35 too high

[mossy ivy]

tbh 60 or 30 does the same thing its just 60 more annoying

[ancient kiln]

terraria is different game

[grave tundra]

25 or 30

[spice onyx]

30% sounds good, 20% would prob feel too low with cds

[mossy ivy]

like theres no way the lower cooldown from 60 to 30 saves you from death

[ancient kiln]

30% 30s cd

[jade jetty]

hmm

[mossy ivy]

true

[jade jetty]

ppl could try with the 20% heal/abs pots that are already available and see if it feels balanced

[last goblet]

what are the chances of a feedback post saying that having to wait for IH to come up is too long

[heady robin]

80%

[mossy ivy]

btw strong warcry exists

[heady robin]

But not immediately I think it'd come some weeks after the change

[ancient kiln]

yea but idk dont think its buyable

[mossy ivy]

so u can get an idea of it using that

[mossy ivy]

do u want some

[ancient kiln]

potentially

could use them in cz

[lucid moss]

yeah wtf why does PI get to be the way it is

KApple is what a 20s cooldown and you need to be hungry

[jade jetty]

yeah theres 30%/20% absorption pots from r3 too

[mossy ivy]

it costs monopoly money

[jade jetty]

imo devs should let me beta test by repeatedly lootrunning shifting with nerfed pots

[spice onyx]

PI/II are not the issue though, the potions are

[lucid moss]

chat

[heady robin]

PI just lets you better access what already exists in potions

[knotty ravine]

30

[grave tundra]

pi is a bit of an enabler

[ancient kiln]

imo dev team lacks hvn members !

[last goblet]

yeah you can effectively do the same with a shulker full of potions and just take them out 1 by 1

[jade jetty]

ill leave haven and apply for dev and rejoin

[last goblet]

I have done that
it's not hard

[lucid moss]

you know what delete healing pots

fuck it

[jade jetty]

and then buff lootrunning and cheating and add more bugs to abuse

[ancient kiln]

writing that down

[spice onyx]

PI is kinda like firm, except firm consumes resources faster in my experience

[grave tundra]

I dont think thats really comparable

[open niche]

Its clear we need to turn all splash heal pots to normal drinkable pots

[mossy ivy]

yeah its not

[grave tundra]

all the IH pots for reference

[mossy ivy]

just do a 30s cooldown on instant healing and nerf them to 30% zzz

[grave tundra]

and fis

[open niche]

Shulker soul bis pi/ii

[heady robin]

So fishy

[grave tundra]

shulker souls/essense should stay as is

no one using those even if they got buffed

[mossy ivy]

actually make dark thunder an exception i like me my races

[last goblet]

man
sentenced to more texturing potions

[grave tundra]

::::

[lucid moss]

chat do we really need 42 healing potions in the game

[ancient kiln]

they are like

[open niche]

Yes we do I use maple syrup as my goto pi healing pot

[ancient kiln]

all the same

[lucid moss]

exactly

[heady robin]

Most of them are pretty fake

Dunno why we have so many though

[grave tundra]

the VR ones are cute I like what they're trying to do

[last goblet]

yeah some are either heal for 10% or knockoff of another for lore reasons or sth

[lucid moss]

honestly unless saturation gets killed first which forces health pots to continue living in one way or another, maybe just delete or kneecap healing pots in general

[last goblet]

which is fine they are not gonna shake meta
they better not

[zinc kraken]

fun fact: the vast majority of these are straight-up better than Heart of the Jungle due to preferable secondary effects with little to no cooldown

[lucid moss]

when are people using healing pots outside of a bandaid PI panic button

[grave tundra]

i am not a fan of this but for every resistance and costing 6 ar

[zinc kraken]

Shulker Soul Essence is so genuinely abhorrent to grind that it could survive the war on Instant Healing entirely unscathed and would STILL never get used

[grave tundra]

exactly.

[lucid moss]

kid named the 1%

[last goblet]

I actually run splash potion in kaul and some cz I think
usage
splash otheer people
legit kinda good strat

[lucid moss]

just vanilla or with Boon

[grave tundra]

new Healing Sick wouldnt apply to others if you splash it on others

[ancient kiln]

i think most potion could stay with some changes

if we do cd thing

[grave tundra]

yeah they dont really need to die entirely

[last goblet]

vanilla
throw em

[neat crag]

[zinc kraken]

and tell me, friend
how many people are actually goin' to grind out shulker shell frags for the 1%'s money
when an infinite number of better and more engagin' ways to make money exist

[grave tundra]

% ihs reduced, some to HoT, and then real CD on healing sickness

[ancient kiln]

maybe even lean into stats other than healing

[neat crag]

I just read this post

[open niche]

Me. Speedrunning story skt as we speak

[grave tundra]

the running in circles in this thread is immaculate

[ancient kiln]

so like you heal less but secondary effect is better

[zinc kraken]

god damnit

[open niche]

[ancient kiln]

you are illiterate dont lie

[heady robin]

https://tenor.com/view/sisyphus-rock-mp4-transparent-color-gif-11114772717737196968

[zinc kraken]

this response was NOT fact checked by REAL Monumenta patriots

[neat crag]

Today is a sad day

[wintry axle]

I feel like this would reach an inflection point and that then we would have wished we made it apply sickness on top of having a peb option for accepting splashed heals

[lucid moss]

he's learning he just finished after starting last night

[grave tundra]

wouldnt

[ancient kiln]

yea like 200 words per 13 hours seems accurate

[grave tundra]

if someone wants to throw splash ih on me in kaul, let them

[last goblet]

hope the day get better

[grave tundra]

I dont see that as an issue

[wintry axle]

I read it

[zinc kraken]

the Sisyphus principle

[grave tundra]

is forite making a joke that I simply goes over my head because I cant read

[wintry axle]

Splashing bypassing sickness is a big deal in optimized content

[grave tundra]

I think if it becomes an issue we dig into it then

[wintry axle]

Like the way I mentioned

[zinc kraken]

every Monumenta feedback thread will inevitably spiral into an infinite circle of balance discussion centered around a select few items

[neat crag]

Other players splashing you in optimized content will never happen

😭

[wintry axle]

It will if it's heads and shoulders faster at healing

[last goblet]

idk but also like
you don't want a coordinated 2 player team be too much better just because they spam splash on each other

[ancient kiln]

yea i wouldnt want to heal people like u

[grave tundra]

I mean if you put a 25s cd on self healing pots

[neat crag]

Fennec!!! Heal me!!!!

[ancient kiln]

nah die

[neat crag]

Still won’t happen

[zinc kraken]

maybe not for you

[open niche]

This how samwell felt ?

[ancient kiln]

you kinda have to have hotbar slots

[lucid moss]

we've come full circle, spamming HEAL in the chat on Wynncraft has made it to Monumenta at last

[grave tundra]

okay niamn I'll take specifically your word for it and you'll be fired if its not true

[neat crag]

It’s too difficult to coordinate at that level

[zinc kraken]

gettin' trolled by your team is better for content

[neat crag]

[ancient kiln]

to heal someone

[wintry axle]

Now that's a lie not a incorrect statement

[spice onyx]

early hsb dungeon healer moment 🔥

[last goblet]

I saved soooo many players
running away from v demise
from activating too many spawners in cz
it's crazy how effective it sometimes is

[knotty ravine]

it’s like what people used to do w Clucking back when it healed 40%

think about it

[ancient kiln]

i dont think healing people is a problem

at all

[zinc kraken]

I'm pretty sure this is like half the reason I carry around a box of Potions of Perseverance

[ancient kiln]

if it becomes one deal with it then

[neat crag]

Ok when people start splashing each other in optimized play I’ll admit I was wrong 😭

[zinc kraken]

(that I will never use for myself because I'm too much of a stickler about not usin' consumables unless absolutely necessary. same with my box of Twisted Tepaches)

[wintry axle]

Not right now because you carry a god mode worth of instant health for yourself already

[grave tundra]

if it becomes a problem we will attack it then

dont think we need to preemptively go for it

[lucid moss]

is this so far off from using Hallowed Beam on players

[ancient kiln]

even post the hypotetical change

hotbar space is a resource

[wintry axle]

Me when hypothetical events are talked about in context to hypothetical changes and thus aren't currently relevant

[last goblet]

you can run it on any class
in cz
with no abils also

[knotty ravine]

hallowed beam healing is fair because you’re giving up a portion of your class budget and ability to do it

[neat crag]

So what’s guaranteed next update? Nerf all consumables, nerf insta healing, nerf sapper stuff, nerf armor, buff mob HP?

[wintry axle]

Are you telling me HEALING to survive that bypasses all restrictions wouldn't be worth inventory micro and hotbar space? That's naive

[knotty ravine]

pot splashing can be done by anyone

[ancient kiln]

its r3

[lucid moss]

inventory drink still exists

what hotbar real estate

[last goblet]

if you have HoL or similar you kinda don't need it though
but when you have no way of healing otheer people
it becomes pretty good

[ancient kiln]

by the time you pull the pot out your teammate is dead

[zinc kraken]

skill issue

[ancient kiln]

if you do that you deserve to heal

[wintry axle]

That's a skill issue I think, why even bring it up in a hypothetical

[zinc kraken]

whether it's on the part of yourself or your teammate is a coin flip

[ancient kiln]

i mean

[wintry axle]

This too

You can splash from inventory

[lucid moss]

if you run Cleric it's free too

[ancient kiln]

i dont have much of an opinion of team heals cap it if its such an issue

[desert ore]

Doesnt inventory drink splash on your feet

[zinc kraken]

I can right-click twice and have splashed everybody around me with a Potion of Perseverance

this takes me about 2 seconds, 3 if I'm slow, because I carry around with me a box of these at all times that are otherwise useless to me

[ancient kiln]

it does

[lucid moss]

when the team synergy so shit that your boy is unable to retreat to your location

[ancient kiln]

your teammate stood still for 2 seconds on low hp

and you stood on him

[lucid moss]

also run Cleric for free safety net for inv splash

[knotty ravine]

it’s r3 ain’t no one retreatin

[zinc kraken]

skill issue again

[desert ore]

Idk man, if you’re free to do that i think its not a big deal personally

[lucid moss]

R3 moment fair enough

[knotty ravine]

seriously i don’t see anyone around me when i do mr

it becomes solo content after the first minute

[ancient kiln]

social outcast

[desert ore]

That’s like enough time to also just take a moment and eat food too

[wintry axle]

R3 is too easy true I don't even need ih in MR and similar

[zinc kraken]

MR is a giant timed strike

and the boss is kinda

not one you need to care about coordination for

so it's not a surprise in the least that you're not really gonna be around people for the vast majority of the run, nor need to heal anyone with splashies on the spot

[wintry axle]

I wasn't even thinking about any normal content when I considered group healing because that content is so easy. I was thinking hf and high asc cz where the important times are when all the players are really close together anyways and they have to be somewhat coordinated so a splash heal is not out of question as a move

[zinc kraken]

yeah

[desert ore]

Isnt it usually a sign things have gone incredibly wrong if you need emergency healing in hexfall normally

Given like everything from the boss is basically a oneshot the only thing doing actual hits is floral and mobs

If u get hit by floral u can just eat food usually, u arent gonna get multihit barring massive fuck up

And if ur hit by mobs, scout has made a grievous error

I dont play high asc cz so im not qualified to make informed comments

As for coop splash heal.. idk i feel like you being rewarded for that level of cooperation is fair

[zinc kraken]

personally

I can't help but wonder if part of the problem is that like

all the I.H. potions?

they're all percentage-based

why?

[desert ore]

Because being nonpercentage would be an even bigger headache

[ancient kiln]

you dont suggest that if they were flat there wouldnt be a problem do you

[zinc kraken]

no, no

[wintry axle]

No it's a sign that you are playing more recklessly becsuse you can rely on a predetermined coordination effort to group heal and so you get to do more damage kill more ads ignore boss mechanics yadda yadda

[zinc kraken]

moreso just. thinkin' aloud. tryin' to think about what problems might arise if instant heals were flat instead

[desert ore]

Group heal to ignore boss mechanics?

Errr

[lunar cypress]

Because tank builds with -hp turn into 100% heals lol

[desert ore]

I dont get it

[zinc kraken]

ah.

right.

[wintry axle]

Don't ignore that this is a hypothetical issue after ih is nuked and boss design can be made with that in mind

[zinc kraken]

I. briefly forgot those were a thing

[desert ore]

How does being able to heal ppl result in ignoring one shots

[wintry axle]

^

[desert ore]

In this hypothetical scenario, cleric would still exist and would thus require content to still be balanced with in mind

[wintry axle]

Don't ignore that hf is the way it is because of ih right now so that implies there'd be boss mechanics that don't one shot if it weren't for ih

[wintry axle]

I'm sure clerics full ass heal would get cut down if it resembled the issues that made one shot mania the only valid hard boss design

[desert ore]

In which case splash healing can be cut down then too?

🤷‍♂️

[wintry axle]

Oh my God that's the point I was making

Okay we agree cool

I hope you didn't think I sighted on group splash heals as a real issue in this current age and time

[desert ore]

In a hypothetical scenario where something is a problem, obviously you deal with the problem

[wintry axle]

Yes that was my stance

[desert ore]

But like

A bunch of ppl are acting like it already is one?

[wintry axle]

No

[desert ore]

Or that was the impression i got reading chat anyway

[wintry axle]

It only came up when referencing the potential ih fixing specifically not doing anything for splashed instances of ih

And time to rehash what was said, I said that it should and that you should get a peb for whether you want to receive splashed heals so that we can just nip any potential exploiting in the bud

[silver thicket]

something i feel has been only lightly brough up here in this thread is player access to raw movement speed, or the fact that movement speed buffs tend to be multiplicative

speed being prevalent on tank sets was mentioned

even with no extra base speed, speed buffs oversaturate the game to compensate for it

i am quite interested still with the "armor weight" concept

[sterile holly]

Ngl if there was an armor weight concept that would separate agility and armor between eachother that would be cool

Like armor having innate kbr but less mobility and agility being more mobile but having other downsides

But it's too much work and it's never gonna happen

[desert ore]

true kb:

Vertical kb:

[gritty laurel]

😦

me when im in the air to crit a mob and i have 10bkr and then i get hit into THE FLOOR so i can't crit

[desert ore]

Oops negated advantages so now ur just slower for no gain

[gritty laurel]

kbr is still good but if 1.19 didn't cook it it would be so much better 😦

[silver thicket]

for real

[wintry axle]

mojang loves cooking pve

I still can't get over 1.20.2 attack ranges

[silver thicket]

but yea i think a logical first step would honestly be healing rates in this game. IH/sapper has been contributing a lot to the problem, but I think health recovery overall could also be looked at

[grave tundra]

neva say neva

[sly moat]

no

that's the opposite of cool imo

i rather liked how armor and agi are only there to separate builds into 2 categories

you're not bound to either by anything other than items

[gritty laurel]

@grave tundra is there any way for mm to go back to old kb before 1.19

[grave tundra]

can we go back to bronze / gold armor in R2

[grave tundra]

I think we use the vanilla system and not using it would mean writing something custom from scratch I'd imagine

[gritty laurel]

and is that 50000000 hours of work

kbr for players on high ping is sometimes even worse then having 0 kbr 💀

@golden hound knows

him and his 250+ ping

[golden hound]

It is truly

Unless it is mandatory on things like reaper/paladin you really just cannot rely on it

[grave tundra]

idk I dont do plugin work

[golden hound]

I am still so mad that mojang decided to nerf KBR as a whole instead of just nerfing netherite

because that was the entire reason they changed it

[gritty laurel]

ms do you know if making a custom kb thing would take 500000 hours to make

[golden hound]

i do not

[gritty laurel]

who do i ping to ask

[golden hound]

idk any plugin dev?

[gritty laurel]

is nicknon one

[golden hound]

i guess

[gritty laurel]

@proper cloud

[south ingot]

off topic but could you not just copy some cheat client velocity plugin but server side?

[golden hound]

you could piong him

[gritty laurel]

yeah sorry i know that kbr stuff is off topic but i saw charging typing here so I wanted to ask him

[golden hound]

on topic because the steadfast set becomes even better at lring 😄

totally the problem at hand

[gritty laurel]

https://tenor.com/view/pikachu-gif-13575853101874488635

[trim thicket]

Strongly agree with the acknowledgement of the problem, strongly disagree with the solutions. While EHP bloat, abundance of healing options without drawbacks, and low risk high reward damage outputs do SUPPORT this style of gameplay, it is not the cause of it or main enabler of it. Monumenta at its core has many mid-late game means of progression tied to repeating content (you must do dungeons multiple times to get materials for expensive epics, you must do dailies multiple times to get certain rares or artifacts, delve infusions requiring multiple clears of CZ/DD and dungeons) with many rewards for time dedication being utility or QOL related that further aid in making the repetition of content easier. Delve modifiers are meant to make repeating content fresh on the next run. The more that repetition of content is encoruaged, the more people repeat content, get progressively tired of it, and want to complete it efficiently when its required to achieve a specific long-term goal.

[silver thicket]

old kbr and removal of dead mob hitboxes are the cookies melee gameplay deserve versus aoe slop

[trim thicket]

The larger issue is that things while things are being implemented to better align the "the most efficient route" to normal clear, most of these implementations are solely reducing options players have in terms of viable ability selection, experimentation, etc.

Rather than simultaneously creating alternatives or new ways to play that are in better alignment with whatever the definition of normal clearing is.

[silver thicket]

the classic "buff other things instead of nerfing outliers" argument

[trim thicket]

Please point to where I stated that

[silver thicket]

"rather than simultaneously creating alternatives or new ways to play that are in better alignment with whatever the defninition of normal clearing is"

in an ideal world sure

would love to hear ideas

[trim thicket]

Reading comprehension moment

[silver thicket]

that is what you said is it not

[trim thicket]

I am not arguing for one or the other

[silver thicket]

like summaraized greatly

just moreso pointing out something?

like pointing out what you view as the "larger issue"?

hm let me see

[trim thicket]

I mean the obvious solution is just yeah, nerf outliers or whatever is being "abusable" whilst simultaneously buffing things across the board but 1) big ask and 2) there seems to me a looking idea of "buffing everything will create more problems and is harder to manage"

[silver thicket]

reading the second more closely i believe this is in reference to the game as of current

and not tying in with your disagreements of the proposed solutions from oracore

but i basically assumed that tied in

[silver thicket]

is this a notion you feel from monumenta itself or the player discussions here?

both?

[trim thicket]

Both

[silver thicket]

i see

[neat crag]

The issue (or rather maybe not an issue but how things are) is that monumenta's main end game focus is replaying it's content at "harder" levels. There's no world where you can shift out the replayability of the game. And even if you do, the issue will still persist that people who want to replay the content as efficiently as possible will figure out ways to do that. And it will end in the same way as it is now, because it is possible, it will be done. Instead of making rushing/lootrunning unviable, they want to make it **impossible **through technical and stat limitations. Of course this is bound to bring up actual issues with the game as to why lootrunning is so prevalent (which we are already seeing on f1 zenith) but it opens the opportunity to fix those issues instead of ignoring them completely.

[south ingot]

It is genuinely impossible to change how people want to play, and all people do not play the same way. Its naive to say that people lootrun because of x specific preferential reason. People will play how they want to play, and at endgame for any game that ends up as min-maxxing. Even in single player no-economy games people will still speedrun, which is effectively the same thing. The ONLY way to prevent this is to make it impossible or inoptimal, not harder, not less 'worth-it.' People aren't playing the game like a job, they choose to play they way the play entirely optionally and of their own accord.

Sure, for some people (some, not everyone), economy or repetition boredom might be the last straw for choosing to lootrun. Yet in either of these cases the common denominator under why they lootrun is the same. Lootrunning is a) possible b) optimal. You wouldn't lootrun for money if it is slower than normal clearing in a real set. Likewise you wouldn't lootrun if it wasn't humanly possible, since you literally aren't able to. It doesn't matter what your personal reason is, if you can't do something anymore you necessarily won't do it anymore.

If you can't survive lootrunning because you aren't immortal anymore, you won't lootrun.
If you can't kill mobs/clear rooms better with a tank-first set rushing strategy, you won't do that.

And those who still try to lootrun under this conditions would be doing so out of enjoyment, no longer because its optimal. Which is fine, not a problem to be fixed, and also impossible to change.

[silver thicket]

im sort of confused by what you mean with the line "The ONLY way to prevent this is to make it impossible or inoptimal, not harder, not less 'worth-it.' "

[trim thicket]

Also confused with the wording on that

[south ingot]

If something is possible, it will be done. Someone will eventually want to do it anyway. It's almost always more complicated than reducing it down to any single reason. Whether that be an item, gameplay direction, mechanic, whatever. You really do just need an all-ecompasing impossibility (or massive impracticality) if you want something to not be done.

[trim thicket]

I agree with you Oracore nonetheless

[silver thicket]

maybe it is semantic but i feel like making something inoptimal is exactly the same as making it "less worth it" but to a certain degree

[trim thicket]

And what Niam bounced off of me is kind of the elephant in the room

"Instead of making rushing/lootrunning unviable, they want to make it impossible through technical and stat limitations."

[silver thicket]

i agree that making it "less worth it" and not crossing the threshold of being "unoptimal" doesn't necessarily accomplish anything but it's kinda required as a step

[south ingot]

Harder: if you nerf items, people will just get better and use new strategies
Less-worth-it: the recent bandaid requirements, rushing is slower, yet still optimal. The nature of the strategy makes lootrunning always optimal, because you do half the damage but can group up 10x the mobs

[trim thicket]

I'm all for optimized gameplay being in somewhat alignment with the typical core monu game loop of kill mobs, break spawners, repeat but I'm not a fan of the recent inorganic implementations to do so in things like CZ.

[silver thicket]

mkay i figured that was what you meant by these terms

it was just sorta vague to discern the exact definitions

im glad this discussion is being held with the intent of helping the developers achieve the vision of the game instead of being filled with bias and narrow opinions

this instead seeks to address core issues over "inorganic implementations" or "band-aid fixes"

something like blocking off the door when a twisted spawns in cz is never going to discourage players from the playstyle

[celest pelican]

I don't think tm wants entirely eliminate lootrunning, since that would require very big changes

[trim thicket]

Lowkey if there was a way to enable it so that players will always "passively" kill enough mobs to unlock the door that would satisfy both parties.

[neat crag]

They do

[trim thicket]

I genuinely felt that the mobs blocking door thing was fine and healthy for the game until it got a little silly when I always reached the door after killing a "reasonable" amount of mobs and still being blocked.

[full lake]

But that will make people just throw potion normaly, no?

[silver thicket]

this game really just fails to incentivize the player for killing mobs beyond "they might kill you otherwise"

[trim thicket]

so true

[silver thicket]

or (insert artificial mechanic here)

[neat crag]

All the talk I've seen here is about removing any items that make lootrunning possible in any way. If it all goes through at once, it will likely kill lootrunning entirely and/or make it much moredifficult. The issue is that the changes will bleed over onto normal gameplay, and that is probably what matters more to them

[silver thicket]

right, that is a concern for me as well

[neat crag]

It's about finding the balance between killing speedrunning and allowing normal gameplay to feel "okay"

[trim thicket]

I guess that's what I'm hinting at overall

[silver thicket]

its easy to throw a vague softcap system for something like armor damage reduction as an idea but

[neat crag]

And I am afraid about some of the suggestions here as I do think they will hurt intended gameplay

[trim thicket]

The tools used for lootrunning are objectively ingrained in Monumenta and removing them will do a load of destruction and necessary reworking.

[silver thicket]

where is "excessive" defined?

[celest pelican]

😭

[neat crag]

Proves my point

[trim thicket]

When my mom asked me if I did the dishes, I told her "EX Stoneborn Sculptor." She smiled at me, with a firm acknowledgement that they were washed.

[full lake]

It have cool hope skin

[grave tundra]

Most of what I've participated here is looking at root issues, not looking to block whats enabling lootrunning specifically. we all know IH is unhealthy for the game for example

[trim thicket]

...also another elephant in the room is that lootrunning in Monumenta is actually a subjectively enjoyable experience.

[full lake]

IH

[full lake]

What is it?

[silver thicket]

i think the core of this feedback has certainly been focused

[neat crag]

I don't think IH is that unhealthy though that's the thing. I think it's unhealthy that you can use it as often as you can

[silver thicket]

that's basically what they mean

[neat crag]

Ah

[grave tundra]

a bit semantics but sure thats what I mean

[neat crag]

My apologies

[grave tundra]

40% Ih on essentially no cooldown is gross

[trim thicket]

I mean the first step is acknowledgement. This is a really complex issue to solve with a lot of solutions being underdeveloped.