I like Bloodthirsty
#The Great Delve Modifier Feedbackening
hollow bane
cursive frost
all but one chittering shulker is not delve immune
i’ve seen em be legionary i’ve seen em have carapace
hollow bane
Bloodthirsty is one of those mods that is prime time for silly potential
cursive frost
i even saw one hop on a bee and start floating at me
hollow bane
...and is also the main thing keepin' a lid on how far people can get in EEC
cyan creek
I like Bloodthirsty
all 3 players who liked bloodthirsty in this thread played berserker
hollow bane
all the preparation and AoE in the world can't prepare you for a Tidal Terror suddenly turnin' into an ICBM
cyan creek
the totem of undying
hollow bane
all 3 players who liked bloodthirsty in this thread played berserker
do I really count if I play Bers extremely incorrectly and still like Bloodthirsty even in the Valley
cyan creek
yes, valley no
inner crypt
I don’t dislike bloodthirsty I just find the name kinda weird
Like what it does doesn’t have a lot to do with bloodthirsty
hollow bane
wtf I get to have an OPINION without bein' GOOD AT THE GAME this is insane
anyway yeah I think Bloodthirsty is
mostly harmless
cyan creek
wtf I get to have an OPINION without bein' GOOD AT THE GAME this is insane
rampage is kinda real with buffed skr charm
carmine tartan
all 3 players who liked bloodthirsty in this thread played berserker
i also play shield wall guardian and tcleric and sustain mscout 
lapis pier
I'm gonna be fr shulkers having a bigger chance of being bloodthirsty would be 🔥
untold kraken
they should also deal contact damage when moving at high speeds
solid shadow
Idk . I like specters as a modifier apart from malediction. Who cares if the poi/delve is 10 s longer . More things to fight. Maybe they are overtuned in r1 . But r1 balance for delves is really bad rn . Like 2 classes are "viable" and everything else sucks.
carmine tartan
?
languid cape
ya I dislike how in r1 its really hard to keep up with the scaling
hollow bane
what.
carmine tartan
Feels like we’re playing different games
languid cape
melee classes (expect warlock, goated class) dont have the tools to keep control of the situation, they tend to get overrun by legionnaire mobs that dont die in 1 melee swing. I blame the problem on classes having their aoe mobs tied too their specs rather then their base kits
hollow bane
have you considered:
languid cape
maybe we need to unlock specs in region 1 to achieve balance
languid cape
not considering legionary is not viewing the whole picture for balance though, we have to consider all modifiers.
hollow bane
that's what I do, as someone who plays predominantly Warrior and a lot of Valley content, dungeon delves included
solid shadow
We did a 25 pt reverie and got humbled . It didn't feel like that before additive
hollow bane
normal Reverie overruns you with normal mobs anyway
solid shadow
It felt harder than any r3 65 pt
hollow bane
fun fact: there are no elites in normal Reverie at all aside from the harbingers. nope, not even those giant-ass ghasts count
languid cape
ya I dislike how in r1 its really hard to keep up with the scaling
delves are built around adding more mobs and making those mobs stronger, but with several of the classes being basic brawlers its hard to justify playing them, in context that was designed after those classes where.
solid shadow
Specters were 2 tapping us , dreads as well
hollow bane
r1 player power is way more in check than r3
this, predominantly
carmine tartan
You absolutely should not be getting 2 tapped by delve mods
languid cape
cleric, warrior, rogue, melee scout they all are kinda interchangeable once we get started talking about r1 endgame. I'd say they are all pretty even classes, which is the one thing that is balanced well. However they are even on the weaker side
hollow bane
the Valley has a very clearly observable power spectrum which isn't nearly as variant as the spectrums in later regions
solid shadow
r1 player power is way more in check than r3
I'd argue player power doesn't exist. You just have no output
carmine tartan
additive shouldnt have changed anything for that
solid shadow
Like r2 is where power is checked
hollow bane
no
the Isles are where your ability to grab the nearest Buzz Lightyear aisle build off the shelves is checked
languid cape
cleric, warrior, rogue, melee scout they all are kinda interchangeable once we g...
like r1 cleric just wasent built to deal with the mob spam of delves with it's spells, illuminate seriously struggles to do half of an enemies health, much less be an aoe move; to say nothing about hand of light.
hollow bane
the Isles are where it feels genuinely abysmal to try to do something creative with a build
languid cape
I was trying to play sote today in a 30 point, since I wanted to give it a second chance. I wanted to die
solid shadow
the Isles are where your ability to grab the nearest Buzz Lightyear aisle build ...
That is cause ppl don't try to make their own builds . You have enough good items for variety. At least more than 1 king set
carmine tartan
What builds are you using for r2
hollow bane
for all the "good items" you have available
they sure are all good at bein' absolute shit in practice
solid shadow
for all the "good items" you have available
I have 3 dif builds for magic classes alone
brisk crypt
I'd like to see both r1 and r2 get some of the cooler enchants in the future
hollow bane
I'
solid shadow
4 if we count dd
brisk crypt
and open up build options
hollow bane
no matter what artis and epics I pull up with there is nothing in the Isles that feels comfortable to play
carmine tartan
Can i have these builds
hollow bane
hilariously, the Valley feels like it has more build options despite havin' fewer item options than both of its successors
languid cape
no matter what artis and epics I pull up with there is nothing in the Isles that...
scout is always comfortable to play 😎
hollow bane
largely because the Valley, get this, isn't super reliant on what gear you're usin'
languid cape
hilariously, the Valley feels like it has *more* build options despite havin' fe...
thats because all of valleys items are defensive 
it just has a greater ratio of defensive items to offense items
carmine tartan
I like to do my delves in rares sometimes
hollow bane
you can walk up to the average delve in like
carmine tartan
I might be just a tiny bit of a masochist idk
solid shadow
no matter what artis and epics I pull up with there is nothing in the Isles that...
Arcanist , scout,warrior, swordsage felt balanced . Elementalist is god in that region . Reaper is okay too I think . Shaman would be okay if it wasn't afk .
languid cape
largely because the Valley, get this, isn't super reliant on what gear you're us...
it honestly is tbh, you can do a lot better if you think carefully about the gear you choose instead of just slapping on full kings
maybe to a slightly lesser extent then in other regions, but your build does matter
hollow bane
I don't use any of the King's pieces
I don't even have Greaves yet because that's 30 Pulsating Gold I'd have to spend
on a pair of pants that will go directly into my Rock's Little Casino storage room section and never be touched again
solid shadow
Like id agree on some classes like assassin and paladin being unplayable in the region
carmine tartan
?
languid cape
Assassin is lowkey unplayable based
people say, oh its so fun and sure its fun to play but you get vaporized if you put on more then like 15 delve modifiers since the classes damage is sad post additive changes and you have to be glass
Unlike in region 3, the colossal are not rogue fuel, its a very dangerous modifier that will kill you since the tower of terror outputs 120 damage per second.
dreads mess you up without a weapon like clockblade or special charms for more splash damage
hollow bane
people say, oh its so fun and sure its fun to play but you get vaporized if you ...
...yet, when that's been my experience as Warrior in the Isles since day one of me gettin' there, it doesn't matter
carmine tartan
Without a weapon like clockblade?
languid cape
paladian though, nah that class is overhated. Its flawed, but it does function
solid shadow
...yet, when that's been my experience as Warrior in the Isles since day one of ...
Are you bers or guard
languid cape
(r2) pala is like B- tier probably its aight
hollow bane
Bers
but I play Bers really incorrectly I think
languid cape
main problem is getting smoked by the twisteds, its really bad at dealing with those
solid shadow
paladian though, nah that class is overhated. Its flawed, but it does function
In r2 max li can barely kill rod mobs
languid cape
and also getting smoked by your teammates who eat your fuel for luminous
languid cape
harbringer is, apoth feels bad
r2 harb feels like a good metric for powerlevel the classes could be balanced around. The class is good at what it does, but needs to play intelligently to not over extend itself and deal with its problems.
apoth kinda just runs out of potions all of the time
solid shadow
I just play apoth in a squishier set without ee and it doesn't struggle much with pots
1.5 s recharge rate + bezoar and ua
fiery dust
i still dont quite know how cara interacts with piercing
does it go and hit the next enemy and break on cara
or does the cara stop it
or does it pierce carapace and do damage
like because failnaught fires so fast i often just pinning shot enemies in different areas just to split arrow them
which just tears through carapace
additionally teal arrows just let me shred through mobs
i spend too much money on delve arrows…
stuck pumice
what am i reading
fiery dust
carapace piercing
like im fairly certain it just negates the damage on the cara enemy
stuck pumice
please for the love of good use tball like all people do
fiery dust
but does the arrow go through
stuck pumice
yes
fiery dust
okay so thats why carapace has been so irrelevant
because the split arrow breaks cara and i kill on the next shot
stuck pumice
i dont even use tball myself but teal arrows failnaught is a brand new sentence
fiery dust
i dont even use tball myself but teal arrows failnaught is a brand new sentence
i have 6000 shifting arrows for specifically shifting purposes
i spend maybe 1500-2000 shifting arrows per run
the true failnaught experience
fiery dust
lmaoo
stuck pumice
tbh i dont run anything now
fiery dust
im too used to failnaught i tried prismatic enigma and it felt like shit
stuck pumice
prismatic is perhaps
fiery dust
give witchbane piercing 4 !!!!
fiery dust
the worst proj weapon in the region
fire
stuck pumice
give witchbane piercing 4 !!!!
use brown arrows
solid shadow
shifting is cool unless it is 90% water . gives like 20+ mats per player usually as well
empty galleon
oh no, a 90% water shifting! Whatever shall I do?!?!?!
the ever reliable seafloor sabatons:
cyan creek
even gas mask is good enough
blazing prism
oh no, a 90% water shifting! Whatever shall I do?!?!?!
the ever reliable seafloo...
seafloor sabatons enjoyer spot
cyan creek
abbysal, gills, aqua affinity and depth strider on the same armor piece? in this shifting economy? satisfactory.
native ingot
meanwhile coral crown is given less water stats just for fun
solid shuttle
i got a suggestion + feedback
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VLCxFocrxo31nWQp4rXKamE2wcAvVsw9_Ban61-a9w4/edit?usp=sharing
solid shuttle
o oops mb
brisk crypt
I'd argue you can see a vengeful mob coming ahead of time given the giant red banner on their head
I can agree though for arcanic / embers
solid shuttle
I'd argue you can see a vengeful mob coming ahead of time given the giant red ba...
ye i do agree that the banner is a big help, but i thikn its more so if the vengeful mob is arcanic
brisk crypt
is that so much indicator or is that modifiers multiplying with eachother in bad ways
solid shuttle
its a bit of both, if there was an indicator that the spawner had arcanic and it spawned vengeful mobs, it would give a clearer warning that mobs can be arcanic
so deaths would feel more justifiable as the player had foresight of a possible arcanic mob spawning
but also a problem with modifers multiplying with eachother in bad ways
brisk crypt
arcanic not having an indicator until the spell procs is fair
solid shuttle
ye also with the scout gallery eagle eye enchance cosmetic
u cannot tell if they are casting a spell at all
brisk crypt
that cosmetic is maybe a horrible blunder
leaden shore
i agree
solid shuttle
😨
brisk crypt
related but related
embers have issues in and of themselves
they aren't addressed in the pinned planned changes in part because we dont know what to do really
blazeeper is cool but kinda a non-threat and meteor is cool I can't say the same for the other two
solid shuttle
i think if the spawner had an indicator that an infernal mob can spawn
u can probably compensate the ember mobs by buffing them to be stronger
- give them more atacks
it would be more fun to fight cuz rn u can just one shot ember mobs
brisk crypt
that could be a cool shift
Arcanic
If Arcanic is going to stay the same, then the mob that is Arcanic should be a different glowing color or have particles indicating that they are Arcanic. With all the particles and mobs going around it's sometimes hard to see which mob is actually Arcanic.
Is adding more particles the correct play here when we acknowledge that there's already a punch of particles going down?
Or shift the Arcanic spells onto a unique mob, similar to Infernal. But still give a clear indicator that they are going to spawn.
I don't think adding net more mobs to delves is wise, feeds the same-y ness and mobspam issues
Another suggestion can be turning the Arcanic mobs from being offensive attackers to support for other mobs as we don’t have any of those (other than Twisted Cleric).
Such as minor healing, damage boost or speed boosts
lol arcanic has a heal & charger ability it can apply already
solid shuttle
> Arcanic
> If Arcanic is going to stay the same, then the mob that is Arcanic ...
maybe not particles but a different distcint glow perhaps? cuz i do understand that with more particles it can get very messy
stuck pumice
> Or shift the Arcanic spells onto a unique mob, similar to Infernal. But still ...
same-y ness comes from abilities itself not from looks
look wynncraft
brisk crypt
same-y ness comes from abilities itself not from looks
dont entirely agree
stuck pumice
its both i guess
brisk crypt
if a base mob gets arcanic and said base mob has an ability, its going to be different than a different arcanic in different content
If you replace that with an arcanic "mob", that spawns the w the same abil in every content, you've added some same-y ness
stuck pumice
if a base mob gets arcanic and said base mob has an ability, its going to be dif...
its gonna just be a ability soup mob i think
brisk crypt
that too
brisk crypt
look wynncraft
havent really wynncrafted to be honest
i have a level 40 I played a year ago for a week or two
and another level 40 I played two years ago for a week or two
maybe I need to play wynncraft
stuck pumice
every mob looks different, approach to every mob does not look different
brisk crypt
Gotcha
stuck pumice
wynn isnt bad for one playthrough id say
was primary reason i actually bought minecraft
stuck pumice
stuff just feels bad after monu idk why
brisk crypt
we have some good things going for us for as many problems as we do have
iron glacier
stuff just feels bad after monu idk why
monu goes way further on skill reqs than any other server dares to
so all the other combat just feels dull
stuck pumice
i do prefer nicer contains than nicer wrap
iron glacier
(basically monu over wynn statement)
stuck pumice
and wynn is definition of wrap is much nicer than what is behind
brisk crypt
wrap? contains?
stuck pumice
mmm
iron glacier
the wrap being the first experience
brisk crypt
you speak another language
stuck pumice
think it did not translate well
iron glacier
contains being whatever comes in their """endgame"""
iron glacier
wynn is not made for people who invest time into endgame, their devs just barely care about it
stuck pumice
we have actual skill going into gameplay
iron glacier
its like super focused on earlygame and playthrough experience and it really shows
but not beyond that
stuck pumice
when i first logged on monu i thought i am not playing that trash
brisk crypt
which, tbf, we're working on
brisk crypt
when i first logged on monu i thought i am not playing that trash
lul
stuck pumice
tf is this vanilla adventure map
brisk crypt
"trust me bro it gets good"
iron glacier
when i first logged on monu i thought i am not playing that trash
i logged on monu after someone sent me a samwell clip i think?
normal belfry
I mean monu end game is okay but it has replayability built into everything which is kind of where it comes from. That I can appreciate
brisk crypt
20 hours later
stuck pumice
"it got good"
normal belfry
Wynn just doesn’t have replayability imo
That’s why it’s first playthrough is so good
hollow bane
I think it'd be cool if Arcanic had, like, different effects for different enemies instead of bein' the same three spells
but that leans into a larger sort-of-but-not-really-suggestion I want to at least talk about sometime with regards to how delves are handled (and how same-y they feel)
brisk crypt
i got a suggestion + feedback
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VLCxFocrxo31n...
The vengeful rework here is just an entirely new modifier really
stuck pumice
yea whatever you do on wynn do not touch proffs
brisk crypt
I'd rather fix the issues with current vengeful as a mechanic
I mined two trees I think
and said "people do this?"
and logged out
normal belfry
Past getting the requirement for the two quests that have that
stuck pumice
true
iron glacier
i touched profs in wynncraft. my fingers are now burnt
brisk crypt
Or a simple solution can be keeping the HP boost but removing the DMG boost.
Though I can see an issue in class disparity. Mages and Alchs have a much harder time dealing with these higher HP mobs compared to Warriors and Rogues.
this is what we're going to try
I think some class disparity is fine
stuck pumice
one dies if it does not kill
brisk crypt
can r1/r2 alchs deal with high hps fine
iron glacier
> Or a simple solution can be keeping the HP boost but removing the DMG boost.
>...
god dang it still annoying for mage i think
stuck pumice
one throws one more pot
iron glacier
altho without the damage buff i may just skip them for good
brisk crypt
genuine question as I dont play alch
normal belfry
Alch is better than rogue by far imo
stuck pumice
wait theres regions beyond r3
brisk crypt
skull
normal belfry
brisk crypt
thats the other problem we dont want to fuck up r1/r2 by focusing on r3
brisk crypt
but inevitably most of this feedback will be about r3
stuck pumice
just shaman things really
brisk crypt
havent played r1 shaman but i heard its just op
iron glacier
r1 anything that relies on abilities is kinda bad
just because you dont get enough of them
iron glacier
havent played r1 shaman but i heard its just op
throw totems > run around (break spawners? run away if danger) > mobs died
iron glacier
i played that in eec it really is limited to that
iron glacier
frankly it's probably that good just because its the only ability class that is allowed to have good uptime in r1
stuck pumice
but who cares playtime is still on rock bottom
iron glacier
i dont think there is an easy fix for ability classes lacking in r1 unless you like, allow specs in r1 but lmao
brisk crypt
cue the gif
stuck pumice
i went through r1 three separate times
iron glacier
you just dont get enough abilities for a remotely proper cycle, especially on your first playthrough
brisk crypt
Most* r1 classes just require vanilla combat
iron glacier
i went through r1 three separate times
my condolences bro
brisk crypt
there is progress
wdym
normal belfry
stuck pumice
some quest do still feel like why tf i have to do that
normal belfry
That was me dying on my third attempt deathless play through
brisk crypt
we have more sweeping things in the works
stuck pumice
That was me dying on my third attempt deathless play through
well i died later than you so skill issue really
normal belfry
What did you die to
stuck pumice
light blue charged creeper
iron glacier
doom
normal belfry
I died to an orange insta boom that spawned on top of me
brisk crypt
Bloodthirsty
Bloodthirsty is actually fine, it can lead to some funny moments and it adds quite a lot of good chaos when doing dungeons. It's good in concept but sometimes the mobs fly way too far. Slightly toning down how far they can fly and increasing the audibility of the horn before they pounce can reduce frustration.
bloodthirsty has value in what it does I can agree its execution needs work
rn it applies a tag to a mob and that mob will initiate launches on up to 4 other mobs nearby
stuck pumice
not the horn sound...
iron glacier
does bloodthirsty respect line of sight?
brisk crypt
who knows
stuck pumice
yes and no i think
brisk crypt
check the code for boss_coordinatedattack
iron glacier
sometimes feels like the mobs just materialize out of thin air
brisk crypt
its public probably
stuck pumice
initiator could respect but mobs around def not
iron glacier
maybe if they all did it'd cause much less issues
stuck pumice
mmm
brisk crypt
let me check the code
brisk crypt
yeah that'd be plugin stuff
solid shuttle
> Bloodthirsty
> Bloodthirsty is actually fine, it can lead to some funny moment...
ye its good in concept and good for shaking up the delves cuz it can lead to some funny silly moments, but sometimes the mobs fly way too far
carmine tartan
> Arcanic
> If Arcanic is going to stay the same, then the mob that is Arcanic ...
Would it be possible to do something with mob stacks
Like a reverse mount effect
lament quail
I wish it wasn't a dash though
brisk crypt
Would it be possible to do something with mob stacks
So check if the mob is riding another mob and block it?
lament quail
the dash is either one dimensional "the mob lands where I am so I back up and nothing comes of it"
or ludicrously overtuned and launches mobs dozens of blocks in a single second
carmine tartan
The issue is partially due to limited number of indicators possible to denote a mob with modifiers, yes?
leaden shore
you mean like having a mob on its head to indicate its arcanic right?
carmine tartan
you have glowing, and particles rn, and vengeful has the banner
so stack a reverse mounted invisible mob with a mob head onto a mob modified with delve mod
lament quail
you have glowing, and particles rn, and vengeful has the banner
if Carapace gets replaced, you can move the charging noise to Arcanic mobs
carmine tartan
to open up a 4th option for indicators
carmine tartan
So for arcanic they’d have like a magic ball floating over them
Optionally make the magic ball the thing that casts magic abilities for arcanic idk
leaden shore
lucent u are cooking
brisk crypt
I dont think it makes any sense for the indicator to cast the ability
carmine tartan
thats what is done for vengeful banners afaik
Is it possible to do both this and vengeful
brisk crypt
I dont see why not
carmine tartan
I dont think it makes any sense for the indicator to cast the ability
Flavor wise its maintaining a spell floating over its head that is constantly shooting things at u
it’d be like uhh
brisk crypt
arcanic isnt just two proj spells
carmine tartan
The reworked blizzard frozenearth shoved off
brisk crypt
its a heal and a charger as well
unless you are just referring to making the projectiles shoot from the orb
idk I dont really see the point in that frankly
carmine tartan
Its just kind of a flavor suggestion
brisk crypt
sure
carmine tartan
Cuz atm all the abilities cast from an enemy’s torso i think
I really liked the spikes being shot from around/above u from frozen’s rework of blizzard into ice spikes idk
brisk crypt
kind of like an elden ring phalanx spell?
carmine tartan
It’d be like umm
One of the traditional wizard things is to have a focus
A wand in our case i guess
But the wand is a floating ball
brisk crypt
brisk crypt
ok
carmine tartan
Idk it was just a visual suggestion
carmine tartan
I dont see why not
How does the banner work exactly
Is it like the pillager banner thing
brisk crypt
no its either a baby armorstand riding the mob or a display of some kind
same thing that the vilerot warden whatevers in chittering do
carmine tartan
Its not an invisible illager captain?
brisk crypt
cause if you put a banner on a head slot of a mob that means no playerhead vanity
brisk crypt
Its not an invisible illager captain?
no
rancid jay
It’s an armor stand passenger equipping the banner
carmine tartan
Oh its on chestplate slot i see
So player head works fine with it together
Cool
brisk crypt
no its not on the base mob
its an armor stand riding the mob with the banner equiped on its head slot
carmine tartan
I know its on an armor stand
I just thought banners attached to a mob was a mechanic either specific to illagers or required head slot
Mostly cuz i never looked it up or tried
brisk crypt
yeah its just a specific model? for how that banner is displayed
a bunch of items have them in the base game
rancid jay
Oh its on chestplate slot i see
It’s on head slot…?
rancid jay
Yes
carmine tartan
To clarify, they would overlap each other and not work like the blaze stack colossus yes?
rancid jay
Yes
carmine tartan
Ok
rancid jay
But it is the head slot and barriers only display like that in the head slot, wherever you’re going with this
carmine tartan
In bedrock chestplate slot works too so i got confused
carmine tartan
But it is the head slot and barriers only display like that in the head slot, wh...
I made a suggestion to make arcanic work like vengeful’s visual indicator
I wasnt entirely sure how that’d work but charging said it would so i got curious why
rancid jay
Yeah I’ve thought about that too
Unfortunately that was also at the time we had crazy mob unloading/reloading shenanigans with vengeful banners so I shelved that one quick
carmine tartan
What about bloodthirsty
rancid jay
I think marking bloodthirsty mobs is unproductive when it’s all other mobs that jump at you, not the bloodthirsty mob itself
rancid jay
If bloodthirsty did just give the mob itself the jump ability then that would make more sense I think
carmine tartan
I wouldve assumed it just made the mob that spawns bloodthirsty throw itself at u
carmine tartan
Even purple challenge seems to assume that
Given the uhh 100% bloodthirst resulting in 0%
rancid jay
The way it currently works is wacky I think because 1 bloodthirsty mob being spawned means 4 being launched
And more for a double one
carmine tartan
Is it getting a heal cap? Heal cd?
carmine tartan
And more for a double one
Double?
rancid jay
Double bloodthirsty spawn
carmine tartan
I’d have assumed they’d try to throw the same mobs or something
Or maybe each other
And then fail to throw cuz bloodthirst immune
rancid jay
Is it getting a heal cap? Heal cd?
Damage increase removal for sure and max amount of times it can heal maybe I think is what I’d go with
rancid jay
And then fail to throw cuz bloodthirst immune
No they’d just throw different mobs
I’m more just pointing out that 1 spawn actually means many more mobs being affected
Like imagine if 1 arcanic “spawn” meant 4 other mobs became arcanic
carmine tartan
Damage increase removal for sure and max amount of times it can heal maybe I thi...
Wouldnt a dmg increase removal make it not very threatening
I think the issue was more of said dmg increase interacting in questionable ways with other mods wasnt it or something
brisk crypt
i am torn on if we remove the health on death or the damage on death
root cause of concern afaik is the shitty interactions
rancid jay
2x health and healing is already fairly challenging
brisk crypt
chittering spiders really
rancid jay
Doesn’t need to sit at the edge just beyond your range only to pumped up and spam 130 damage arrows at you
And this is on top of the 1.36x to 1.75x or higher delve damage mult
carmine tartan
I guess so
rancid jay
We could also just split the difference and halve the heal and damage on death for funsies
carmine tartan
That doesnt really properly fix the issue with bad interactions though, just delays it
rancid jay
The cap would be halved too and cap would still apply to healing I imagine
solid shuttle
That doesnt really properly fix the issue with bad interactions though, just del...
i think if the vengeful mob has an indicator that its arcanic, the dmg boost they get wouldnt be as frustrating
rancid jay
The current stats are 10% heal (no cap), +7.5% damage (max 12 kills)
brisk crypt
max can be what 4, 5?
rancid jay
Perhaps something like 5% heal, +4% damage, max 5 times
carmine tartan
+5% dmg and hp w 10 stacks? Idk
rancid jay
Or +5% heal +5% damage or +10% heal +5% damage
brisk crypt
at frozen can I spin a giant wheel to pick
rancid jay
Or +5% heal +5% damage or +10% heal +5% damage
If it’s between these two I think
carmine tartan
x1.5 dmg and max of x3 of a basic mob’s hp if it’s 5%
rancid jay
And 7.5% heal as the third option
brisk crypt
well are we keeping the double base health
rancid jay
Yes
carmine tartan
im assuming yes
10 stacks of 5% heal is 100% of a base mob’s hp if u kill 10 other mobs beforehand
rancid jay
It’d definitely be 5 triggers max I think
carmine tartan
Alternative option im bringing up would be to slightly nerf vengeful rate instead for higher caps
rancid jay
Another reason vengeful gets ridiculous w/ other delve mods is that higher delve points just have so many mobs to feed those stacks
carmine tartan
My primary complaint is the uncapped healing
Because that allows runaway chain reactions spiraling off into infinity
everything after that would kind of be a bonus from my point of view, and i dont play 65 pt very often so idk how much of an issue the dmg stack is there
brisk crypt
Or +5% heal +5% damage or +10% heal +5% damage
10% Heal, 5% damage, cap of 5, base 2x health is fine for now, then we go from there imo
brisk crypt
we are brainlinked
carmine tartan
So uh infernals
Can it maybe not work like legionary
Its a pretty big offender for mob bloat imo
brisk crypt
infernals....
carmine tartan
It rolls a chance for every mob spawn right now right
rancid jay
Dies I think
carmine tartan
Esp if the plan is to make legionary semi inbuilt to deal with multiplayer scaling
rancid jay
Maybe they go back to being mob abilities and it was all a stunt
carmine tartan
Oh ok
idk i kinda like the creeper
Infernal fire dmg buff, spawns and immediately fills the area with fire and leaves
rancid jay
I like it too, it is my favorite
carmine tartan
basically adds fire environmental hazard to maps without a lot of fire
brisk crypt
I like the meteor caster
carmine tartan
if we make a mob ability it should make mobs self detonate to spread fire 
rancid jay
I can do it with the transcendent missile true kb change
If we’re fine with doing that this week
carmine tartan
Do they carry over the vanilla behavior where any dmg done by a creeper also applies status effects
rancid jay
can't be both?
It would be both wdym
soft burrow
ok cool
rancid jay
o yeah earth any updates on the dpact bug
Effect is reworked to be more like snowstorm stacks so that should function better I think
rancid jay
Do they carry over the vanilla behavior where any dmg done by a creeper also app...
Pretty sure this is disabled because otherwise invis creepers would Do that
soft burrow
i have not played cz in like 5000000 years how do snowstorm stacks work
rancid jay
It’s basically just implemented in a way that you have a unique effect that handles everything instead of trying to set and reset durations
soft burrow
so the bug SHOULD be fixed
rancid jay
Should
rancid jay
Going back to infernal though
soft burrow
@rancid jay
ricar — 3:36 PM
ask him if focused charm of the contract works
cause like
that modifies the duration per stack
rancid jay
1st iteration was just arcanic 2 and 2nd iteration mobs are kind of mob count bloaty
rancid jay
ricar — 3:36 PM
ask him if focused charm of the contract works
cause like
that m...
Yes
brisk crypt
One thing frossoli is you could make them big and scary
1 per spawner on X chance
visual indicator ahead of time (flame inside spawner)
rancid jay
1st iteration was just arcanic 2 and 2nd iteration mobs are kind of mob count bl...
I think there is some coolness to the notion of the spawner itself being “enflamed” but idk what that would entail or be too close to riftborn
Yeah there is also the idea of making them rarer
brisk crypt
I had an idea about spawners becoming something as well
hybrid moat
Spawner gate modifier
carmine tartan
I think there is some coolness to the notion of the spawner itself being “enflam...
Spawn infernal mob independent of mob count
Soup up the infernals a bit maybe
iron glacier
Infernal fire dmg buff, spawns and immediately fills the area with fire and leav...
I will be honest I don't think I, or anyone else, let's the creeper blow up to be that hazard
carmine tartan
I like the idea of it, not the execution
iron glacier
If they really wanted it to be a hazard it'd be instant explosion, no explosion damage and no blocks broken so you can't jump over it
Maybe buffed radius to compensate but idk
But explosion damage is just way too dangerous to let it blow up
And the delay on its explosion makes killing it pretty easy
carmine tartan
Honestly im not even sure what the other infernals do besides the creeper
Its a bit hard to tell what theyre doing under the chaos
iron glacier
The meteor guy pisses you off from across 20 rooms cause he doesn't respect line of sight
Sometimes blocks your way with his magma if there is vertical elevation in the area
carmine tartan
I think there is some coolness to the notion of the spawner itself being “enflam...
Random suggestions:
iron glacier
Others do nothing idk
little relic
I wonder if we can have textured spawners
carmine tartan
Enflamed spawner spawns a few infernal mobs, independent of the original enemy spawns, and soup up the infernals a bit
iron glacier
Technically yea minecraft allows that
But idk if that's a step they'd wanna take cause of no rp players
normal moat
We'd stick to particles for spawner tells
carmine tartan
alternatively, soup up the infernals a lot, but not to full elite status, and have them buff enemies while alive with various fire related effects
little relic
We'd stick to particles for spawner tells
not just tells, just cool spawner textures !!
iron glacier
?
Some people don't use the monu rp and the official stance on that as far as I know is to not ignore them
Oh I thought you meant for different spawner kinds
little relic
I did mean it for both but I see your point
lapis pier
Enflamed spawner spawns a few infernal mobs, independent of the original enemy s...
this is exactly what I was thinking but I think you'd ask a lot of the devs to tag spawners that can be converted into delve encounters
lapis pier
like a "shielded" spawner but its "encounter_allowed"
brisk crypt
designated spawners in dungeons/every content ever
I had a similar idea except instead of tying it to spawners it'd just be combat areas
lapis pier
designated spawners in dungeons/every content ever
debt of not making changes universally possible is gonna hurt
wait it already does probably
hollow bane
's gonna hurt harder the bigger the plans get unless the tech debt's paid beforehand
fiery dust
thats the other problem we dont want to fuck up r1/r2 by focusing on r3
r1 alch i have bought a whole ass roar of the valley for
because 8 damage pots are not it
pine flume
just play shaman 
untold kraken
because alchemical Artillery needs a bow to work, silly!
fleet kite
memory maker ...
jade forge
r1 memory maker real
pine flume
doesn't cleric already have that?
lament quail
no
genius cleric rework removed attack/proj scaling "in an effort to make attack/proj items more worthwhile to use"
that is almost verbatim
pine flume
hallowed beam 🥺
pine flume
@ Ian1KV
rancid jay
Should hallowed beam even have it
If it was intentional then the description should say that it scales off of both projectile % and magic damage % like hunting companion, but it doesn't
So maybe it's a bug and should be removed !
zinc jetty
gleaming cobalt
It was intentional
lament quail
I mean proj cleric was killed with the DJ rework anyway and all it is now is Beam drone
cursive frost
and ranged LI popper
lament quail
sure but that stupid self cycling LI build is an abomination
lyric grotto
i havent read any of the message but did anyone bring up teh change of
"instead of vengeful gaining dmg and speed & healing, have it so that it heals and gains significantly more max hp"
untold kraken
Wow that sounds much worse
brisk crypt
i havent read any of the message but did anyone bring up teh change of
"instead...
Vengeful: now is 10% heal, +5% damage, both max 5 triggers. x2 base health on spawn remains
gleaming cobalt
Makes sense, removing the damage completely would kill it
untold kraken
what if killing a mob had a 7% per level chance to spawn an avenger
10% is respective to 2x right? So it's 20% of base?
lyric grotto
that... sounds a bit weak but alright
brisk crypt
that... sounds a bit weak but alright
its -2.5% damage and lowering the cap from functionality infinite to something realistic
lyric grotto
wasnt it capped at 12 stacks previously?
brisk crypt
Yes
lyric grotto
except for healing
untold kraken
I think speed should scale exponentially and infinitely
cyan creek
what if we get reverse avengers - dying mobs buff others around it
lyric grotto
bruh
untold kraken
ok then they should unlock a targeted leap vs the player who killed the most mobs recently at 5 stacks
lyric grotto
if ur nerfing the dmg and healing then speed couldve stayed there tbh
untold kraken
Twisted champion style
brisk crypt
if ur nerfing the dmg and healing then speed couldve stayed there tbh
it hasn't boosted speed in years
brisk crypt
presumably because its wrong
lyric grotto
brisk crypt
@lyric grotto I think u might be wrong
lyric grotto
heh
when was the last time change was made oin that file
wait is that also in public repo
brisk crypt
wait is that also in public repo
ya
it was like that in 2022 if I am reading it correctly
I think you've lost it
empty galleon
i think vengeful should summon 2 twisted rogues
split marsh
Vengeful: now is 10% heal, +5% damage, both max 5 triggers. x2 base health on sp...
hmm 10% on 2x health is still effectively 20% compared to a regular mob
brisk crypt
yeah
split marsh
what was it before?
untold kraken
also 10 I thought
brisk crypt
it was exact same before except didnt respect the cap i think
split marsh
ah okay so only 300% hp total basically
split marsh
after damaging it for half its hp
tawdry cove
Vengeful: now is 10% heal, +5% damage, both max 5 triggers. x2 base health on sp...
the thread was worth it ❤️
i want to do more of these community bulk posts but barging into 60 peoples DMs every time is very rude
brisk crypt
tbf
what nicknon pinned was planned
but good changes came of the post regardless
and help reinforce the direction
Legionary moving to base in some reduced capacity is probably the one we need to hear the most voices on
carmine tartan
Legionary moving to base in some reduced capacity is probably the one we need to...
I’m assuming the base legionary will not be reflected in the delve point score right
Will legionary still be an additional option on top of base legionary
Will challenge delves be adjusted to account for the higher mob count
untold kraken
MORE MOBS
Legionary could be a cursed weekly mod
Every enemy is now 2x but reduced stats
tawdry cove
hybrid moat
every mob splits like slimes on death
brisk crypt
I’m assuming the base legionary will not be reflected in the delve point score r...
it’d scale w/ points the same way health/damage do, just with custom scaling
no it wouldn’t be available as a modifier
untold kraken
Mobs have a chance to implode on death 🥺
(which can also hurt other mobs)
actually nah that favors certain classes too hard
carmine tartan
it’d scale w/ points the same way health/damage do, just with custom scaling
Is this going to just be r3 to start with or everywhere
brisk crypt
Is this going to just be r3 to start with or everywhere
in theory it’d be everywhere though it seems spawned from r3 concerns
untold kraken
Presumably it won't be more than the current 75%
Or if it is not by mych
so it should be fine... Probably
will challenges with high legionary just get higher scaling? Or will their points be changed
brisk crypt
Well you’d design it for 12pt / 18pt /22pt in mind
and it wouldn’t resemble current legionary in Count I’d imagine
could easily be tied to the spawner instead of each mob spawned as well
carmine tartan
It’s already very easy to just randomly get firing squaded by r2 at 25 pts
And given how many delve mods add ways of bypassing shields or add dmg
Uhh
No but seriously
Can r2 please stop catching collateral hits from r3
I’m getting like really fucking tired of it
brisk crypt
Its annoying as hell
carmine tartan
r1 at least has some minor leeway, however dubious it is
But r2 absolutely cannot
lapis pier
Isn't legio x2
normal belfry
Legionary in all content is pain
untold kraken
15%/level
carmine tartan
If r2 difficulty keeps going up, can the universal delve mult on dmg at least be nudged downwards to compensate
lapis pier
Legionary in all content is pain
How
carmine tartan
you get like 5 hits on a normal build, and 10 max on full tank
normal belfry
How
Basically double mobs in all delves? That's kinda crazy imo and favors AOE classes extremely
lapis pier
What regions do you play
normal belfry
Mostly region 3, but all of them
lapis pier
Also wouldn't you think a scaling mob count might not immediately make all content have double mobs?
brisk crypt
I think if that was the case we’d have failed
normal belfry
At the end of the day, isn't that basically what it means? More mobs is not always the right thing to do
untold kraken
Also wouldn't you think a scaling mob count might not immediately make all conte...
this sounds like you're assuming that it's somehow going to be worse than legionary immediately
at low point it'll probably be a slight amount of mobs and you only feel a difference at very high points
normal belfry
this sounds like you're assuming that it's somehow going to be worse than legion...
(That's basically my assumption but I know it's on the far end of things)
untold kraken
Past the four person maximum
lapis pier
Acting like legio 5 is just gonna be extra on top sounds myopic
untold kraken
Legionary 5 is getting removed?
normal belfry
Acting like legio 5 is just gonna be extra on top sounds myopic
Isn't that what it would be if legionary is removed?
untold kraken
legionary is being changed from a delve mod to a passive scaling
zinc jetty
(What does Myopic mean)
untold kraken
is the gist of it
normal belfry
(What does Myopic mean)
nearsighted
zinc jetty
Wow there's just a lot of confusion
normal belfry
I think it's just a conversation but the plan from my understanding is to make legionary inherent to delves
zinc jetty
Probably would be nice to fully flesh out legionaire base scaling a little more
carmine tartan
I thought it was just a mob count scaling component added to delve scaling
brisk crypt
If it moved to base I can’t imagine it’d be nearly as powerful as current legionary five At 25pts. You’d balance it around the least aoe classes in the least aor regions
normal belfry
And it will scale with the number of points (12, 18, 22, 25)
untold kraken
i assume from this that inherent means changed to passive
carmine tartan
Similar to dmg and hp
untold kraken
not kept
tawdry cove
what about additional rotating modifiers to incentivize trying different item subsets
like uh
carmine tartan
I see
untold kraken
monthly modifier: +100% life drain healing, +20% ethereal effectiveness
lapis pier
what about additional rotating modifiers to incentivize trying different item su...
How about rotating modifiers that you are forced to pick
normal belfry
I'm still thinking that carapace change basically does the same thing as it does now and is still bad
tawdry cove
"Mobs take reduced damage beyond 6 blocks away, but Stamina and Point Blank enchantments are increased in effectiveness"
for like 3pts or something
untold kraken
that would be cool
untold kraken
until you realize that not everyone has build variety
stuck pumice
Skill issue tbh
untold kraken
if it was intrinsic i would slit my wrists im sorry
tawdry cove
mods
carmine tartan
I cant see making inherent legionary in r1/2 working well in any way
plucky flume
.
stuck pumice
anything silly
normal belfry
tawdry cove
I cant see making inherent legionary in r1/2 working well in any way
legionary is actually so much worse in r1
that inherent legionary definitely needs to be toned down in r1
carmine tartan
Government mandated shaman meta
tawdry cove
like, massively
normal belfry
It's actually so bad in lower regions 😭
stuck pumice
It's actually so bad in lower regions 😭
Lower regions
untold kraken
"Mobs take reduced damage beyond 6 blocks away, but Stamina and Point Blank ench...
If there was a gear loaning system I think something like this would work but since there's no real way to do that without giving out gear itself it's :/
normal belfry
Lower regions
man
tawdry cove
if you make me do a highly legionary scaled light blue in r1 i might go ballistic
normal belfry
get your head out of the gutter fennec-sama!
tawdry cove
CURSE OF BABY ZOMBIE
normal belfry
CHICKEN JOCKEY!
untold kraken
nah I'd magic class
stuck pumice
get your head out of the gutter fennec-sama!
Get your head out of your lower regions first
lapis pier
Me when delve scaling is different already between regions so there's already a precedent for this thing
zinc jetty
🤔
Would this mean the built in legionary would scale less for something like Reverie than White?
carmine tartan
I dont like legionary in general to be honest
But r3 already involves a lot of mob spam in encounters anyway so i cope
lapis pier
Wait never mind i see charging posted a message that said "both r1 white and calders palace will have 2.0x mob spawns"
carmine tartan
But r3 already involves a lot of mob spam in encounters anyway so i cope
You’re already being spammed with mobs anyway, what’s a bit more?
stuck pumice
I wonder whats gonna happen if we take that well designed encounter
untold kraken
Persona
stuck pumice
I wonder whats gonna happen if we take that well designed encounter
And double all mobs in it
Including elites
Could add some spice like transcendant vengeful and carapace to it
untold kraken
Player shocked when delving a dungeon makes it harder
stuck pumice
Truly
carmine tartan
I think it’d be fine if delve scaling had the option of setting a mob count value to it
And it was used where appropriate
But blanket applying it to everything sounds like a disaster
untold kraken
I think it should scale with delve points a little and player count a lot
stuck pumice
Well first of all it should not apply to elites imo
untold kraken
(in the area)
untold kraken
It would be so funny
carmine tartan
Elites scaling with legionary is going
stuck pumice
Good
untold kraken
A shame
having twelve elites per encounter made them even less threatening thank you rogue
stuck pumice
Nothing shameful in that
normal belfry
I think it should scale with delve points a little and player count a lot
I think that this will just incentivize solo play more, though I'm not completely sure. Of course it depends on implementation
carmine tartan
Where is it appropriate to you?
R3 content is partially designed with mob spam taken into account
encounters usually happen in relatively open areas with easy to navigate terrain
You can kite around piles of enemies, force them into a chokepoint around a corner, whatever
in r1 and sometimes r2, the terrain is often specifically designed to be hostile to the player
Vines placed with the intended purpose of slowing the player down, pits in the middle of rooms full of webs and spawners with chests to lure you in, knee high water flooding rooms to slow you down, open lava and void, lots of vertical design to allow mobs to drop in from above or pile up below
Open ledges and cliffs with kb mobs to knock you off, precariously placed bridges, etc
Fundamentally, i do not consider r1, r2, and r3 design to be compatible
Seeing r1 and r2 repeatedly have global changes forced onto them as a result of r3 problems really pisses me off because those changes often dont mesh well with the design and flow of r1/2
In r3 if you get overwhelmed you can just throw yourself out of the situation with a mobility skill to a safer location and reheal
lapis pier
R2 too ngl but it was less "r3" as you mentioned
carmine tartan
Of course, PI and recoil exist
But PI has an entire feedback thread dedicated to its problems for a reason and recoil has a cooldown and reload and is nowhere near as mobile as skills
lapis pier
I love r1 and r2 I'm assuming since charging does too that anything he spearheads is necessarily gonna be not as impactful in regions already solved mostly
carmine tartan
And is an r2 thing that happens to work in r1
r2 is somewhere in the middle of r1 and r3 on that spectrum
But also has its own added challenge of mobs doing significantly higher % of player’s hp unique to it
so it has its own layers of r2 vs r3 separate from r1
in r1 if you get overwhelmed, getting away to reorganize is the difficulty
In r2 if you get overwhelmed realizing it’s happening in time to do anything about it is the difficulty
For r1 if you increase mob count, those mobs are now eating up even more of the limited safe terrain in an encounter
in r2 if you increase mob count you get punished and blown up even faster if you make a mistake
pine flume
r2 is dubious
carmine tartan
Pern is funny in r1, as a side tangent
On one hand, your encounters now have more mobs intruding from neighboring rooms, but on the other hand the mobs are also making the terrain safer by deleting hazards and opening up more escape routes and room to manuever
I like delve mods with a give and take dynamic, personally
cursive frost
If r2 difficulty keeps going up, can the universal delve mult on dmg at least be...
purple oarsmen are 27 melee x1.05 purple mult x1.36 12pt scaling = 38.6 melee damage, or about 3 shots to any normal build
small herald
purple oarsmen are 27 melee x1.05 purple mult x1.36 12pt scaling = 38.6 melee da...
No way it is only 36.8 damage. I remember literally having 90% of my HP being taken out with 1 hit from a 12 pt Oarsmen. My melee EHP was ~65
carmine tartan
purple oarsmen are 27 melee x1.05 purple mult x1.36 12pt scaling = 38.6 melee da...
To be fair those mobs hit hard as their gimmick
Theyre slow but hurt
small herald
Theyre slow but hurt
Corrupted Warlock v2
carmine tartan
I think most mobs end up hitting like 20-25 dmg base for the last few dgns
small herald
I think most mobs end up hitting like 20-25 dmg base for the last few dgns
Me when you have like 80-100 EHP on average...
cursive frost
Theyre slow but hurt
the devious speed multiplier:
small herald
R3:
carmine tartan
What speed multiplier
cursive frost
delves give 0.4% speed per point
brisk crypt
delves give 0.4% speed per point
this might be stupid
cursive frost
the inherent mult on purple is actually 1.1
cursive frost
No way it is only 36.8 damage. I remember literally having 90% of my HP being ta...
so 40.4 damage
carmine tartan
r2 buildcrafting sucking ass is a nice cherry on top of a shit sundae 
small herald
so 40.4 damage
??? 90% of 65 is 58.5
lapis pier
man I remember old delves just being moronic with speed
thanks to "relentless is free points" or something
cursive frost
this might be stupid
it is kinda stupid imo it erodes mob identity and makes melee harder to play
lapis pier
big issue with delve mods in general is that they often do this
cursive frost
are white mobs genuinely slower than yellow or reverie ones
small herald
I think so
cursive frost
fun fact about delve mob health scaling is that it just checks for whether you have enhancements or specialisation enabled instead of whether the shard is isles ring valley
so theoretically i think you could drag a player in r2 who hasn’t done Master of One and just
make them trigger all the spawners
then the delve mobs spawned will be r1 tier instead of r2
small herald
fun fact about delve mob health scaling is that it just checks for whether you h...
Wait, WHAT
cursive frost
getHealthMultiplier(level) * (ServerProperties.getClassSpecializationsEnabled(nearestPlayer) ? (ServerProperties.getAbilityEnhancementsEnabled(nearestPlayer) ? DELVE_MOB_STAT_MULTIPLIER_R3 : DELVE_MOB_STAT_MULTIPLIER_R2) : DELVE_MOB_STAT_MULTIPLIER_R1) :
it checks the nearest player
small herald
Wait...so if I just turn off all my spec and enhancement points...
cursive frost
Wait...so if I just turn off all my spec and enhancement points...
i don’t think that’s how the check works?
it might be for “have you unlocked this system yet”
small herald
i don’t think that’s how the check works?
But then how would the above work? I believe if you go into another region early, you automatically have all the skill points and (if applicable) enhancement points of the previous region
inner crypt
yeah I think that's just if you unlocked it or not
because that changes how class menus shows
rancid jay
That's not how that works
Those methods go off of predefined properties of what shard you're on, it's not based off of actual game progression
The player parameter's just there for the case of player plots where you can change your region
brisk crypt
🏇
tawdry cove
Vengeance: Now capped at 5 stacks, healing 10% HP and gaining 5% damage per stack
Arcanic: Arcanic Missile damage reduced from 12/30/40 to 12/25/35
Transcendent: Transcendent Missile knockback now respects KBR
languid cape
hol up why did r1 arcanic missile not get nerfed too
fiery dust
quick question
if i hit 5 enemies at once with piercing 4
how many of the split arrows actually proc
and would they proc i frames
cursive frost
quick question
why are you in the delve modifier feedback thread
jury is out on whether split arrow procs its own iframes
fiery dust
shit
fiery dust
why are you in the delve modifier feedback thread
i was reading this and it uhhh reminded me of gameplay discussion…
carmine tartan
hol up why did r1 arcanic missile not get nerfed too <:OhTheMisery:1164304973425...
it did
indirectly
languid cape
i'll take it