#Have we backed ourselves into a corner with the charm system?

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

signal wolf
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Quite a few people people complains about the charm system, or the balance of some charms. While some charms can be fined tuned and be good again, I believe there is a more fundamental problem with how the charm system works that inhibits charm balance. The current system, while being pretty interesting, have its flaws that can potentially get wore with time.
I will list three main problems I see with the current charm system:

I: The Start System
I was fine with the system until I realised how inflexible the system is. Especially when you bring transformation charms into play, its really hard to quantify how much power a star should give in order to balance them. Many times its somewhat difficult to measure how much stars should a charm cost (and you are often stuck with the "should this be 1 or 2 star" dilemma), and looking at some of the current charms it feels like TM does struggle to do it right. I still think this system has its merits, but it is just too hard to get the right amount of costs.

II: The Synergy
People sometimes think you can never have too much synergy, but the charm system is an evidence that it does happen. Firstly, most charm effects can stack, allowing people to superstack one specific skill to be super powerful. This isn't always bad, however it does occasionally cause headaches for the balance team. Whats worse is that they stack additively, giving some pretty wild combos (for example, +50% damage doubles the damage instead of +50% damage when combined with -50% damage, -10% cooldown is much more powerful when combined with -70% cooldown). This means that every charm when balanced or when being designed must reference other charms for potential synergy. This can be really fun, but also severely limits future charm design and makes things over complicated.

III: Not all skills are equal
Not all skills are as important to your base class. If I play tenebrist my hex is likely more important to my class than other classes, and it would be a better idea to invest charm power in it compared to lets say, choleric flames. (Alternatively, who charm stacks frost nova mage?) Some skills just carry the class more than others. If I have limited charm power, the best way to spend it is to boost the skill that can improve my class more. Charms for a lot of skills are just overlooked because people don't have good amounts of charm power to spare. Its ok for skills to be secondary/support in nature but it does send their charms to the shadow realm. Even worse, if the skill is underpowered, then say good bye to charms for that skill I guess.

Do these problems warrant an immediate rework for the charm system? Not really.
Are these problems hurting charm design? Yes, and it will get worse as more charms are released.
What should be done to improve charms? I don't really know for the best, have some ideas but we are bit too late to do any major changes. If you do have good ideas though, please comment.

brave raptor
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change values of some lesser charms

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im not going to charm lesser tstep charm when i can use lesser omen charm or lesser blizzard/earrows

modest sorrel
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thank you for putting into words my grievances with charms as a system

junior turtle
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i agree with part 3 definitely

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like lesser charms have basically the same +% damage for most damage dealing skills across a class, even if those skills are not equal at all

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like +10% mana lance damage vs +10% magma shield damage (i dont play mage anymore dont shoot me if this is wrong but you get the idea)

brave raptor
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but yeah 10% mana lance dmg is worse than 10% omen dmg

pseudo pecan
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My issue with charms is that, tmk, closest we’ve gotten to a charm that ‘changes’ a skill is vires

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Call me insane, say i belong in a padded room, whatever

But i feel like at least some charms should change how skills function rather than all just be stat increases

smoky lion
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Charm system is relic item better but limited in skill

terse kernel
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i think the fact that lessers just give straight upgrades is rough because it means it’s hard to justify spending charm power on ways to change a skill

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Vires gets away with it by being a 1 star

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but take something like Harrakfar’s Roar, the utility it provides is cool and almost a neutral trade with the +50% cooldown but if it’s gonna eat 3cp that’s 3cp that could have been spent on Sharpened Marksman’s Charm for more damage

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if it was 0cp i’d be willing to run it more

red basalt
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That is an enhancement point and 3cp you spend on mediocre skill

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That might aswell be spend on something which just gives more benefit straight up

mild olive
sly aspen
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I recognize that the rampage charm fucking sucks but I respect it trying to change the ability

pseudo pecan
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I use it

pseudo pecan
pine comet
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I've said that lesser charms are a problem capping creativity before and still believe so

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Like charms should all have red stats nothing should come without a price

dusty blade
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wouldnt that limit the charms that can be made even more?

lean breach
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I noticed a problem where some abilities just need to be charmed to do anything . My main example is holy javelin . With charms it is a death beam on a 4 second cooldown . Without charms it is a mana lance on a 10 second cooldown.

terse kernel
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like, sure, you can argue that charms should instead all be upgrades. but then TM likes to say things like “harrakfar’s roar provides a niche which can’t be obtained otherwise and is best in slot for its purpose” and then leave the charm as a sidegrade instead of a true upgrade

brave raptor
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no i disagree

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i think the problem is just the numbers not the charm system itself

shut scaffold
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The answer to the title of the thread is Probably I think

terse kernel
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the numbers on some charms are definitely a problem

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but i’m saying it’s damn hard to get the numbers right and balance team is. small

brave raptor
pine comet
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I just find the charm system to be very umm

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restricting

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like only fine tuning the stats can be kinda cool if you get creative but man why cant we just get some words in there

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idk

brave raptor
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cant do anything about it

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balance team has limited resources and isnt looking to expand them

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and changing the system is even more consuming

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nothing can be done

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outside of changing like 5 charms

pseudo pecan
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Imagine a charm that changes rampage from a 360 aoe to a directional blast, or makes dagger throw multiple single daggers in succession instead of all at once

shut scaffold
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Hmmm… seems very Major

pine comet
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ok frozenearth

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i remember that legendary charm concept discussion we had

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so im gonna guess thats a hint at "major charms" that do exactly what we arer talking about

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or myabe im stoopid asf

shut scaffold
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Whar

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I mean I was just saying Major Identifications

pine comet
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BOMBOCLAT

shut scaffold
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Of course it would be code shenanigans (and wynncraft certainly has its share of major ID bugs) but I mean it’s been pretty clear that charms are not really sustainable the way they are

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(Sharing that with other systems in r3 that were nice at first but are now starting to get rather bothersome)

shut scaffold
tired pilot
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My honest reaction

pine comet
obtuse hazel
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honestly, yeah I agree with this, and idk if this has been said but I think Lesser charms of the same type should not be able to be stacked on top of another

brave raptor
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no i think charm stacking isnt bad

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its only bad when its the only way to do something

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which is just a numbers issue

obtuse hazel
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Idk I think lesser stacking hinders interesting charm design, it's so easy to straight up bypass any downside you get from rare charms by just stacking lessers

brave raptor
obtuse hazel
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Lesser should compensate for downsides, but not invalidating them

brave raptor
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no i think it can invalidate them

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if you use all your charm power

obtuse hazel
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yeah but there is no fun in that is it

brave raptor
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your fun?

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i think trying to invalidate downsides also creates another layer of interesting

obtuse hazel
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???

brave raptor
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you cant say that lessers shouldnt invalidate downsides

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because its not fun

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lessers arent even that much popular anymore

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i think the existence of lessers is good

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allows you to spend some leftover charm power

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or allows you to tune some stats without any downsides

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like tuning points in hypixel skyblock

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the entire thing about just being stat boosts is what makes them useful and good in the first place

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and if you want to remove that you have to rework the entire charm system

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while keeping charms less interesting

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because you deleted 80% of charms

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like i said the problem is numbers not the stats itself

obtuse hazel
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like for example you have a lesser innate charm, no other non-rare innate charm should be able to be placed

hardy bluff
dusty blade
pseudo pecan
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Yeah im with red here

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Locking it like that restricts the ability to bring up weaker skills

brave raptor
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^

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you can tune some numbers, introduce more rare charms

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because scout 😭

obtuse hazel
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after careful consideration, yeahhh I see your point now

brave raptor
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like alch is the one that doesnt have that issue

terse kernel
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if there were enough good rare charms then i think alyssa’s idea has some merit

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problem is that there sometimes just. aren’t. see shaman

brave raptor
terse kernel
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also cleric

brave raptor
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true

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the experience of finding out what does the most dmg in sharpshooter rending razor pstrike and qd lesser charms

terse kernel
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see the thing is i Can fill out a scout loadout without duping lessers iirc

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two split arrow charms harrakfar’s loci carving and swiftwood arrow

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if you are not wind bomb pilled then harrakfar’s -> sharpened marksman

brave raptor
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you cannot make a scout set without lessers

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that isnt terrible

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maybe 1 set ok

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also shaman lmao

terse kernel
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shaman lmao

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okay the problem is that shaman charms all buff the bits of the class which don’t matter

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Mist of Dawn is an equal tradeoff for 3cp

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flame has No Charms which aren’t like ritual chalk which isn’t even a flame charm it’s just a generalist thing

last mist
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Charm problems are kinda on a per class basis imo

slate fiber
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what I like about lesser charm stacking is that it allows more niche playstyle with single skills sadcat

crisp crow
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So whats really lost are meme builds, which I guess is a shame but if a better system can take its place thats a worthy sacrifice I think

crisp crow
# brave raptor allows you to spend some leftover charm power

Not so sure if this is a good thing. It's not really creative class building to just use your last 3 charm power slapping on a focused charm for your strongest move. Plus there will always be something worth using for filler if you really need it (like for melee scout). A good example of a filler charm is Nihilo core

crisp crow
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Which frustrates me since I want flame totem charms, but it just cannot happen since it would be so unbalanced

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Vicious combos is another example of a skill that can just never get more charms without the game breaking

terse kernel
crisp crow
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flame totem is what the class is built around, i'd hesitate to call it overpowered. Nerfing its lessers just forces shaman to invest in other totems, nerfing all of its lessers just kills the class in r3 since shaman is left with no good alternative play styles

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You could nerf lessers across the board, that still makes shaman weep but if the classes are hit evenly then shaman doesent fall out of viability at least

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You could try to buff shaman's other lesser charms (to ether counter balance totem charm nerfs or just in general). Like making chain lightning charms do like 30/60/90 damage and same for tremour. That might work honestly but its a really slippery slope to take giving skills effectively triple damage to help them compete.

crisp crow
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Thats why i'd favor a complete removal of lesser charms or reworking them to have trade offs instead of just just dishing out nerfs.

slate fiber
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imo nerfing lesser charms crosses the line of balancing the game for the sake of "everything must be in perfect balance" and sacrificing huge amount of fun factor

crisp crow
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well the question is really just about having variety in choices vs variety in meta choices

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Lesser nerf takes away from the former but is also necessary for the later to happen long term

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So its about what you want in the game, I personally want a more refined metagame so I favor culling lessers in some way

slate fiber
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I just want to have silly builds in the game, and don't think its a good thing to nerf lesser charm for the sake of "meta"

crisp crow
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Thats a valid opinion to have and I think could be the one most players have right now

brave raptor
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lesser charms are meta only because a problem exists with those skills

crisp crow
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I'm just trying to think long term how the game could address power creep

slate fiber
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I think the lesser charm issue should be addressed once we delve deeper into r3 progression

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like once we reach the point that we have monument in r3 sadmouse

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there isn't enough charms in the game currently to justify lesser charm nerfs as of now

crisp crow
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wouldnt it be too late by then? I'd argue it may be too late already even

brave raptor
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ppl using like blizzard stack and cloak

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is a problem with the skill not lesser charms

slate fiber
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blizzard stack is broken due to a single "rare" charm

crisp crow
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how can it be the skills fault when they are not op in region 2?

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like surely its the charms fault

brave raptor
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or urn ig

opal smelt
brave raptor
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but its just the playstyle

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now you can have a max -25%

slate fiber
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lesser charms should be observed at per-cases instead of a global nerf

brave raptor
crisp crow
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I mean, you would have to do like 20 per cases that way

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also in the past they have ether failed to nerf the lesser enough (like with divine justice) or took the strategies out of commission completely (like what happened preemptively with as lessers)

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really wish I could use otm screenshots right now 😭

red basalt
crisp crow
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True, we need to apply

slate fiber
red basalt
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it really does not seem that hard to balance lessers with enough people who actually know and play the class

slate fiber
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for example melee paladin sucks ass without dj stack

crisp crow
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Paladian's issue is not having much to do outside of justice and luminous since it lacks charms (including lessers, most of them are underpowered on cleric)

red basalt
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because for some reason there is this obsession with making hybrid classes which simply do not work

slate fiber
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a lot of classes would just suck ass without them

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yes, it might make building less creative

crisp crow
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yes, thats why it nerfs happen I think it should be universal. So everybody gets nerfed rather then just clubbing a random class

slate fiber
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we need more rare/epic charms in the game before we can truly nerf lessers

red basalt
crisp crow
crisp crow
red basalt
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yea as a scout main i wont even notice much ngl

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qd was the epitome of lesser spam but its gone now so

slate fiber
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I personally just like more niche playstyles lessers allows

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like making single skill powerful

red basalt
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the root of problem is just lack of region scaling for skills i think

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charms are treated as region scaling

crisp crow
red basalt
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but some skills just are stronger at base (mostly spec skills) so if you arent charming that you are losing efficiency

crisp crow
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Charms having to act as scaling is what limits design so much. Cannot make cool charms that offer new things for skills to do, since they come at the cost of too much damage

red basalt
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charms overall should be weaker and skills overall should be stronger (meaning scaled up in r3)

crisp crow
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Also means that classes like scout which have better scaling in the form of weapons and armor rely on charms less (compared to a class like shaman, who only scales with armor really)

brave raptor
red basalt
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that is the joke

brave raptor
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oh

red basalt
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scout just does not rely on active skills tbh

crisp crow
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scout just does not rely on active skills tbh

red basalt
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like i could play scout at 2 spec points and 0 skill points and it would still be good

brave raptor
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volley in question

red basalt
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you can absolutely live without volley

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super overhyped skill, 15s cooldown is not really it

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its not alch where you fling nuclear bombs once per 6s

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unless you do the funny volley stack build

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with our favourite lessers

crisp crow
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People used to just run the haste 3 charm on ranged scout, even though it offered no combat benefits just because the classes fundamentals where so good it could hang with only 10 charm power used. Which says alot

red basalt
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its a combination

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fundamentally scout is very good and most of charms just do slightly south of nothing for scout

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except split +1

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which is 1cp anyway

crisp crow
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The split arrow charms....

red basalt
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ranger currently is an even better example of a class purely held up by lessers

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epic somehow ended up as a direct downgrade of swift upgraded for razor

brave raptor
crisp crow
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Lesser splitting charms are also very very powerful cuz they get to pair with the great rare charms

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good example of a skill getting pushed really hard by charms, both lesser and non lesser types

red basalt
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yea tbh in r2 split is kinda just mid

brave raptor
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because the rares are op

red basalt
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you can still play ranger in r2 and not feel like you are the defective cousin

crisp crow
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the rares kind of had to be OP to justify existing at all because the lesser's where already so good (and those lessers are already at 5 / 10 damage already, how could you nerf them even more?)

red basalt
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I personally dont really notice the difference between having 2 rare split charms and between having all lessers for split aswell

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like yea on paper it is kinda insane

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i just get enough damage from pinshot 2 anyway

signal wolf
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wild take but what if 1 charm per skill

slate fiber
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you mean like 1 charm should exist per skill or like players should be able equip one charm per skill

compact elbow
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the latter I'm guessing

signal wolf
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refer to drg