Shattered Feedback Post #3000

[novel parrot]

Is it time to remove Shattered?

Shattered is a broken mechanic. There are numerous problems with it—it unequivocally hurts newer players, does not affect late game players, it overall accomplishes nothing except being a nuisance. It does not work at what it tries to do—it is a terrible punishment system.

 One of my friends quit the game because of Shattered. She played up until White, truly trying to enjoy the game. In White, she expressed that she was having some fun . . . but had to quit because a mechanic was getting in the way—Shattered. She wanted to play the game at her own pace, and her attempts to play the game were constantly being attacked by this system. Dying was extremely unfair. White is already an insanely difficult dungeon for new players, but with Shattered tacked on, it is unbearable. One death—you deal 20% less and take 20% more. You are more vulnerable than before, and enemies are already brutal. You are swarmed in an attempt to get your graveyard, and you are dead again. 40%. A third time? 60% and mining fatigue. You are in no spot to pay for anvils, so you have to toss your gear away. Shattered does nothing if you simply grab your grave the first time. Yet, if you die again, it becomes a world of pain, and the more you play, the more deaths and opportunities to get into situations where enemies make you enter Shattered 2. White also has lava which is an automatic Shattered 2 if you die to it—even if you retrieve your grave, you still have Shattered 1. This causes so much stress and hardship for the player, especially for how dangerous lava deaths already are (or rather, dying to lava is kind of easy?). Death comes with an immeasurable penalty if you, for some reason, can not get your grave/die to something that Shatters you multiple levels. Another issus is there is only so much gear in chests before you run out . . . Although this is less a loot problem and more a Shattered problem.

Word limit.

In what might be a terrible argument, I will bring up Wynncraft. They also had a terrible death system (better than Shattered, I may argue). You had 10 soul points, gaining 1 every 15 levels up until 15 soul points. Each death dropped 2 that would rejuvenate 1 every 20 minutes. Except, the lower your soul points, the more of your inventory you dropped, until you lost everything. Essentially, you could die a few times, but then you were forced to quit and come back later. What was this, a mobile game? It could be solved by AFKing, or jumping worlds close to new days to get soul points quickly. Orrrr you could just swap classes for the time being. What exactly was the point of this system? It was a nuisance that never really added to anything. If you were ever in any danger, you could just do one of the methods above (unfortunately, new players cannot just ignore Shattered). Soul points were never really dangerous, just annoying. They made the decision a few years ago to remove them. Death still has penalty. Dungeons and raids kick you out—and walkback is a thing. This is true for Monumenta. Without Shattered, death will still have these penalties. Death will kick you out of world bosses and strikes. You will be forced to walk back in dungeons and the overworld. Additionally, you lose your experience points—crucial to getting marginally stronger with Infusions. Losing your experience points means delaying Infusions or needing to purchase experience—albeit more of a late game problem, when Shattered ends up becoming worthless, a point I will get to later. Death has other strong penalties.

Dungeons can still be difficult as well, dying itself already feels bad. Dungeons can be the lower stakes content. Challenge delves may continue to be miserable without Shattered, because of the sheer difficulty of enemies (people may be more incentivized to rush, or death-clear. Although, Challenge dungeons have a spawner requirement. Would people rush spawners without care for their safety? People may do it, but also not, by virtue of being boring gameplay. People who rush will rush, and people who want to clear in the face of difficulty will. Shattered does not need to exist to punish rushers.) Does Shattered still need to exist? It only seems to exist to push away new players.

 Shattered means nothing later in the game. The Lime Tesseract lets you convert your levels into anvils on the spot, which can repair your Shattered. You are more likely to amass anvils than a new player without the Tesseract. They need to talk to an NPC in Sierhaven to do what you can anywhere. I have ~2100 anvils in my Lime Tesseract (u). I do not have to worry about Shattered again, if it ever happens to me. So, sometimes I will play with a random 80 levels, hoping to save for infusions . . . to die and lose them. That feels terrible. Shattered? It means nothing to me. Yet it is a bane of new players.

When I started playing, I played through the entirety of region 1 in various states of Shattered. This was before a lot of the reminder text and status in tab I believe. I Shattered 3 in White's final room, and wondered why I had mining fatigue. I had already quit Monumenta once. I was about to again. Someone said the mining fatigue was because of Shattered. So . . . I took my shattered gear off and bridged up to the serpent's mouth, skipping that room (I was so fed up I also skipped all the boons (I didn't understand what the boons would give either or where they could be found, as well). After, I thought Shattered was just a warning, counting up until 3 where you got fatigue. I never guessed that 1 or 2 also debuffed you. (Yeah, Nyaalma, that random enchantment you get when you die does absolutely nothing until your third death/2nd lava/1st void whatever. It's fine. Ignore it.) I would quit again in Reverie. It wasn't until I came back and I think was somewhere into early region 2 when a friend told me shattered 1 and 2 also debunks you . . . Wut. Nevermind, he told me when I quit the first time in White. (Is Nyaalma stupid? Yes.) It is much better explained now. However, the reminder text does not fix Shattered's problems. Shattered? Swap gear. Out of gear? Do you wear the Shattered gear and suffer or do you take your armor off and suffer until you can get more? So you died. Unfortunately. You lost your levels and have to walk back . . . Why does Shattered exist? Anyway, these reminders were nice additions, but only explained the bad system—not remedy it.

[dapper radish]

You shouldn’t be getting swarmed getting to your grave typically?

[novel parrot]

Shattered is a flawed system—Monumenta’s players do not need it. Shattered only pushes away new players, while being unnecessary, there are other death punishments. Remove Shattered!

Will this essay get Shattered deleted? No. Have all these points been brought up before? Probably. Will this influence anybody? No.

Screenshots are me quitting for the first time and then Mardeknius quitting and the debate around Shattered as a successful death system. She had positive things to say otherwise.

[dapper radish]

I am confused why this complaint is a reoccurring issue, this situation shouldn’t even be happening to begin with

[gray mortar]

This does happen

[austere talon]

^ unless you die next to your respawn

[gray mortar]

Sometimes mobs just do not despawn

[austere talon]

^ to this, not the nv

[dapper radish]

You aren’t supposed to trip spawners while doing a graverun

And if mobs aren’t despawning when you die that is a bug unless its coop

[delicate canyon]

to fix shattered we've decided to make it so that your gear drops on death and you have to pick it up within five minutes

[quasi ravine]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/754490987069308959/1341903874491027526/wegg.gif

cool post

[dapper radish]

If it is coop, your team mates are supposed to help

[austere talon]

i mean a "reasonable " fix is to just disable shatter on white for the first run which makes 0 sense but still is a fix

[hasty lion]

I will say for xp loss from death being a punishment:
Later on it quickly doesn't become an issue imo, a bit later than shatter not being an issue but still.
a) You can get a lot of xp from just running r3 pois and other stuff
b) Crimson contract
c) Hekawt boss enchant.

[gray mortar]

New players also do not know the exact layout of dungeons so they can get lost and trigger inactive spawners while shattered

[austere talon]

that's a sense of direction issue

[dapper radish]

I would personally like for limited lime tess to be added similar to apparition runes

[austere talon]

not a new player issue

[dapper radish]

They moved experiencator to white to attempt to combat having to go back to sell loot so often but u still have to do it anyway for anvils, even if less often than previously

[molten girder]

maybe if white layout wasn't "throws you into a huge fucking mess in the first dungeon"

[dapper radish]

And yeah half of the problem here is actually white

Lotta lava so your first real brush with shatter is getting spammed w shatter 2, at a point where u do not have the ability to stockpile anvils effectively

[molten girder]

anyway i think the other time this was brought up my solution was to make tiered items never shatter

the difficulty curve is already tough enough as it is

[gray mortar]

Tiered and uncommon

[dapper radish]

Ive made this suggestion too

[molten girder]

i think uncommons can shatter

[gray mortar]

Ig it doesnt matter that much

[molten girder]

it's a low stakes way of teaching you "yeah you could get rid of this but it's good to try to keep it in working order"

[gray mortar]

Only uncommons new players gonna use is labs stuff

[austere talon]

max 1 shatter

they need to learn that dying is a penalty

[dapper radish]

To be fair here, white’s themeing in part 1 is consistent enough that i still occasionally take a wrong turn after dozens of clears

[molten girder]

yeah, labs uncommons are better than the tiereds you get there but not so much better that you're going to try to sink all your anvils into it

[gray mortar]

Except dying is actually not a penalty in r2 already

[molten girder]

stone brick syndrome

[dapper radish]

The central room has a distinct lack of landmarks to pathfind with and ur constantly going in and out of it

[molten girder]

white is kinda the epitome of "everything is made out of stone brick" builds that are incredibly common in minecraft and i think it's not the greatest thing for a new player to be seeing right off the bat

but that's a separate issue

[gray mortar]

R1 dungeons are just dated

[real marten]

I'm fine with shatter going away just because it's meaningless to end game players and devastating to new ones. Bring it back once it disproportionately targets people doing hard content in good gear

R1 dungeons are more than fine though

[austere talon]

the question becomes: what to do with anvils?

especially with empowered

[molten girder]

i will also say while redoing mainline with a non monumenta player friend, she did fine with just keeping good spare gear on her to swap out in case of double shatter, but if you're not used to the CTM genre etc. then you're probably not going to do that (and i basically warned her to keep a ton of extra gear on her)

[austere talon]

what if the issue was we never told the new players to save extra gear on them

*the game never told

[dapper radish]

Another issue is tendency for newbies to beat their head against the wall when theyre stuck instead of trying to actually fix the situation

[real marten]

It isn't apparent how bad shatter x3 is... better off with no armor on

[dapper radish]

Treating equipment as a resource to go acquire more of is a thought process that a lot of ppl fail to grasp for example

[real marten]

They'll death run with the shatter 3 gear and wonder how anyone likes being annihilated by spam mobs

[austere talon]

and then their inventory gets shattered which is worsens the problem

[dapper radish]

The intent for labs being repeatable was to help with this, unfortunately

1. ppl dont like labs
2. ppl dont think of this

It also doesnt help that figuring this out isnt helpful in the long run either, since post tiered u stop doing this

[real marten]

Labs revamp has probably been talked about since I did labs in 2020

[dapper radish]

Feels like being punished for not solving a puzzle u didnt even know existed and with no reward either

[vestal field]

I feel like new players get punished not only by dying, but also by making bad decisions to spend anvils. Some players don’t think about how to use their anvils and just use them incorrectly and it’s not necessarily their fault because it’s not immediately obvious that is how you should use them.

There are so many things where it’s only really an option for the beginner and not everyone else
And the beginner themselves don’t even think of that

• they need to keep extra gear in case they shatter
• they can run labs or pois for extra levels to repair their armor/get new gear
• they will have to choose to use experiencinator or selling station
• they need to be careful about durability

Endgame? Lootrun baby
Unironically I like early game as the real monumenta more
But well what can I do

[real marten]

Yeah same about real mm

[craggy cobalt]

why is lootrunning even in this

[vestal field]

I don’t know enough about lr to say anything
I just mean being reckless and not care about dying ig

[craggy cobalt]

its same for any content where dying doesnt kick you out

lootrun is more of a penalty because you actually lose time (the reason u lootrun is to save time)

[austere talon]

also you get less loot

[vestal field]

Ok I don’t understand lol
It’s fine that’s a little far

[real marten]

Can anyone decipher this for me

[austere talon]

i think days is trying to say that since lootrunning dungeons is not worth due to the fact that you end up getting less loot than if you wre to play with a teammate

since mats are like 24-32 ar (12-20 cxp)

compared to the 5har throughout the whole dungeon

[real marten]

Are you lootrunning in spite of that or because you don't have the occasion to duo

[austere talon]

me? no i solo clear all dungeons

arguably the worst money to time ratio mnethod of clearing dungeons

[real marten]

I think she miswrote it honestly because it claims x and not x at the same time to me

[thick totem]

"In lootrunning dying is more of a penalty compared to normal playstyles, since losing time goes against the whole purpose of it" is how I understand it (nonsense)

[real marten]

Oh that makes sense, its connected to death penalty

[austere talon]

"This is the first line
But this is not the first line" kinda vibe

[craggy cobalt]

no

that is not what i am trying to say

[craggy cobalt]

this

lootrunning or not theres no penalty for dying

and at least if ur lootrunning ur at least a bit more slower

[naive inlet]

this was practically the old grave system

except exploiters managed to create dupes with that shit

so they made it so the graves do not drop items and introduced the shattered system instead

[upbeat mural]

(that's the joke)

[naive inlet]

i think the old grave system was more forgiving for new players

as long as they are advised not to unshatter their tiered gear

(which costed alot more than anvils)

say i had a full set of epic/artifact gear and a shit ton of other utility epics in my inventory

that would amount to 128+ HCS in unshatter cost

it was brutal but it forced players to be careful and allow their teammates to tap their grave to save the items from shatter

they could even use the cyan tess to send their graves over

[vestal field]

What if r1 tiered gears and uncommon gears takes durability damage instead of shattering. the higher the tier, the more damage it takes.
You’ll use anvils on the rarer stuff and not as much on the tiered stuff, lowering the early game anvil cost and have the cost increase through progression

[bronze edge]

This honestly needs to be talked about more, the fact orange and magenta and light blue and yellow are easier than white (imo, both as base dungeons or how far you progressed for each respective dungeon) is such an issue

[gray mortar]

For your current at the time stage of progression yes white is hardest

However as base i can only give you that orange is harder

[clear hill]

yeah man, i think this is more of a white dungeon issue rather than a shattered mechanic, I seriously couldn't understand why does white have to be so difficult-it's the 1st dungeon bruh

[vestal field]

I always considered yellow much harder
But I also have a slightly weird way of experiencing early game the first time

[delicate canyon]

what if white gave an invisible damage reduction buff to everyone

for all types of damage

[bronze edge]

I also think it's a shatter issue, endgame shatter is literally meaningless

[delicate canyon]

something something some souls are trying to help you

[bronze edge]

Bandaid

[delicate canyon]

indeed

[bronze edge]

The dungeon should be reworked to be easier rather than just slapping a dr

[gray mortar]

Make lava magma instead

[clear hill]

yes, i agreed

[bronze edge]

Is that the wool kicking coyote typing

[gaunt crag]

We have been working on improving the early game which includes many things, one of which is to see if we can modify or rework the death system.

[bronze edge]

Loses its touch tbh

[gray mortar]

Atleast do half lava half magma idk

Too much environment danger for first dungeon

[vestal field]

But yeah for this I think my opinion is always just

1. Add traps to other dungeons if they have too less of them
2. White needs to trim out some of the rooms that feels like just lengthening the dungeon
   e.g. the small statue room and the lava rings downward room

[clear hill]

i think they should give white less trap and spread spawner out a bit more, the amount of trap in white is stupid

[vestal field]

White traps has been reduced in fatality by a lot now I think

[gaunt crag]

I personally think it would be unwise to completely mitigate the penalty of death but the current system that punishes newer players and does nothing to endgame player is subpar to say the least

[bronze edge]

Add more traps definitely rather than reducing them from white, because a lot of the point of CTM is having traps

[vestal field]

I’m a big fan of endgame should also suffer like new players
Death just feels yeah whatever I died

[gaunt crag]

Yeah, the goal is to make it less of a punishment for newer players and more of a punishment for endgame players

[vestal field]

And as someone who plays no gear challenge
If you know how to avoid shattering
You can make death has no consequences as well
With 0 anvils

[gaunt crag]

Yeah, it is way to easy to circumvent the death system completely

[clear hill]

can anyone give me an example of a good death mechanic?

[gray mortar]

You lose exp on death!

[hoary knoll]

Make infusions and masterwork beyond base (only count the player paid) increase anvil cost to repair shatter/dura

well im not sure bout mw

but infusions increasing repair costs is imo

[gaunt crag]

Like in any game? I personally enjoy the holllowknight one

I think RC4 also did it well

[hoary knoll]

souls games? (never played them)

[thick totem]

rc4 had absolutely no punishment for dying (walk of shame doesn't count)

[clear hill]

this could be good, i like this kind of idea

[clear hill]

also Hollow knight have super cool death mechanic but i dont think its that punishing tho

[upbeat mural]

That doesn't sound balance-able at all really

Is pers 1 going to double the anvil price

The difference in increment is too large for that to work I think

[thick totem]

how about region locked anvils, with higher costs in r2 & r3?

[upbeat mural]

Also just nerfs infusions and I don't see why we'd do that

I think there's simply something flawed about using anvils entirely

[hoary knoll]

just gonna further punish players but now at the start of every region

[upbeat mural]

Anvils are the root cause of the difference in impact between new players and endgame players

If we continue using anvils I think that won't change

[hoary knoll]

lime tesseract is a big component too

[vestal field]

Ok gonna post it here
I sometimes uh
Procrastinate doing things and type long posts that I will never post

Anyways suggestions

1. Make it so endgame players suffer the same
   basically limits how many anvils one can have at a time. if you're an endgame player and you died, better wish you have a lot of levels in your contract.

• Players can now only have at most 15 anvils at a time (locks any obtaining methods)
• Lime tess (u) is reworked:
  • (u): swap to apply anvils to all your shattered gear. If there are no shattered gear, repair all of them. (QoL)
• Existing anvils are now legacy and can be exchanged for legacy trophies depending on the amount of anvils you own
• exp stashes and solidified exp is nerfed.

2. Make the early game better fit the late game
   The initial cost starts too high for new players. These changes aims to reduce early game costs of anvils, but still let the demand increase as you progress.

• r1 tiered gears and uncommon gears takes durability damage instead of shattering. the higher the tier, the more damage it takes.
• r1 Tier 1-3 gears will disappear when out of durability. Tier 4 only shatter 1 instead of shatter 3 when running out of durability. Tier 5 only shatter 2.
• r1 unique gear with their corresponding quest labeled as easy or medium is considered tier 3, tier 5 respectively.

[gaunt crag]

if you played it right and didnt rush through things yes. I would say it worked very well in the RC4 environment filling the purpose it was supposed to fill

[hoary knoll]

both of these combined might be the best of both worlds

[gray mortar]

This will affect me and my 400 levels in contract

[hoary knoll]

maybe make so that lime tesseract u can store up to 30 anvils

[tacit knot]

respawn timers :,)

wait 30s as punishment for dying like a dumbass

dunno I think shattering as a mechanic is odd and most of the solutions kinda feel contrived

especially as we get more and more shatterless content

die to a flower guy in hexfall? get shattered lol. die to the FINAL BOSS of hexfall? nah dw G, you're good

[finite lark]

What if shattering was only one level and you had to pay money at the master repairman to unshatter instead of anvils

I have literally NO idea why tiered gear can shatter 3

What’s the point of it?

In every other shatter feedback thread it’s been said that capping tiered gear at shatter 1 would fix a lot of these problems

[vestal field]

Just don’t die

[gray mortar]

I meant i could just swap and quick repair if i got shattered

Then swap back

So it wont actually affect me i can always just frush a17

[quiet jay]

shattering on death should just be removed having to walk back to ur death spot and losing all ur xp is enough of a penalty

[finite lark]

Not really

You don’t even lose all of your XP if you phylactery

And you don’t care about XP if you have the infusions you want

And if you want another infusion just run Zenith where you don’t lose XP

[dapper radish]

Or manage contract properly

[finite lark]

So then the penalty is walking back?

That means I’ll just, not care about survival

[dapper radish]

Cyan tess moment

[finite lark]

Max glassy

[desert maple]

shatter penalty update every Dungeon cp removed cyan tess rework

[finite lark]

Put psycho mask on or smth

[oblique kestrel]

The conclusion we've come to recently in internal discussions is shattered should really just go. Having variance in what happens to different types of gear adds complexity, which is an issue with the current system

[dapper radish]

Variance?

[tacit knot]

having random gear get shattered/not

stori's system is crazy convoluted

just get rid of shattered

gordion knot

[delicate perch]

can’t believe i really miss graves

[dapper radish]

stori?

[finite lark]

So then what’s the reason to build defensive if shatter is gone?

[tacit knot]

lol what

[quiet jay]

not dying

[tacit knot]

not dying

how frequently do you shatter w/o retrieving your grave

its effectively not a system rn because you can just use movement skills to charge through mobs anyways

[quiet jay]

its not like shatter adds anything of value

earlygame its annoying af endgame its basically not even there unless u forget to unshatter

[tacit knot]

i probably use 95% of my anvils for repairing durability

genuinely haven't used anvils to unshatter gear in months

removing shatter isn't going to suddenly make me reconsider my builds

losing 100/60% of my XP is already incentive enough to not die. also just not having to walk my ass back and slow down my clear speed

[gaunt crag]

I think it is worth noting that when we say that shatter should go it doesn’t necessarily mean there won’t be a substitute mechanic

[dapper radish]

Is dying unpriming spawners going to be removed then

[oblique kestrel]

Shatter does currently play into dissuading death-running though

[tacit knot]

dying could deal a shitload of durability damage

[tacit knot]

only in the same way that speed limits discourage rich people from speeding

oh no i'll have to pay an insignificant fee

the horror

15ar.....

[dapper radish]

I dont get it

[tacit knot]

death-running is discouraged by the simple fact that dying and backtracking is just intrinsically boring and frustrating

[dapper radish]

That seems like an overly personal view idk

I dont do lfg challenges anymore, personally, because a fairly common situation was ppl in fact did just start death running because they found it less frustrating than trying to do it properly

So a bunch of other ppl seem to disagree with you on that take i guess

[vestal field]

It’s like
Playing normally and died
Oh man I died that sucks
Well not really
Becomes not as locked in
Died again
Died again
…

[delicate perch]

death running isn’t a profitable activity in 2025 monumenta. there are inexpensive sets for every region that trivialize simply loot running, which is more time efficient and less annoying to do

[tacit knot]

👍

slap on EHP

play a class that has decent mobility

you will never die and you can lootrun to your hearts content

[tacit knot]

what

[finite lark]

i genuinely dont see this as something to care about avoiding without shatter

Just place a bed.

or cyan tess

[tacit knot]

more of a cyan tess issue at that point

[dapper radish]

That’s a separate issue, no?

[delicate perch]

should be but not when it is possibly at the forefront of their philosophy of whatever the next mechanic will be

[dapper radish]

or well, an issue on the other end of the spectrum

Being tanky enough you can ignore the enemies vs using death to despawn enemies as a clear method

[ripe surge]

Every view on death is personal and very hard to fine tune which is what makes it so hard to come to conclusions on death system changes. I'd always dreamed of a Monumenta with immensely more punishing death system to players in the late-game, but the balance of everything else doesn't lend itself to that. I've seen a number of death systems used in CTM maps and I don't think I've seen anything that I would call perfect. A lot of the more modern CTM systems for death I think do things pretty ok though.

Disclaimer: all of my opinions on this subject come from my time as a player/playing CTMs and not a dev and have no bearing on any development ongoings (i am inactive).

[oblique kestrel]

A big thing we run into in a designing a new death system and part of the reason why we made the current death system) is that dropping items on death in R3 and running back to your grave naked would be particularly difficult/annoying

And we've not really had a non-band-aid solution to that

Though some of us do like systems that have items dropped on death

[dapper radish]

I feel like it’d help if at least some of the issues separate from the death system were tackled so its easier to tell how much of the problem is actually the death system idk

[finite lark]

So delves should have harsher death penalties than non-delves.

[vestal field]

Well that’s the point of dying
You lose stuff which make you scared of dying
You gotta have extra gear to get them back
Or you gotta pay up for your loss

[delicate perch]

what was wrong with the old grave system?

[bronze edge]

apply fragility to every delve

[finite lark]

The problem for "paying up" for your loss is the payment is upwards of 700 har

[dapper radish]

Dupes?

Also that yeah

Discouraging ppl from upgrading their gear if theyre poor

[finite lark]

If i lost my inventory right now my wallet would probably cover it. If i lost it again, I'd probably be unable to afford it. I am pretty rich.

[bronze edge]

I remember shatter 3ing my entire inventory including a borrowed kings set from comex and only god knows how I paid for that

[tacit knot]

modhelp my corpse loot clipped through the floor

[gray mortar]

If my full infused set burns in lava then well i dip

[vestal field]

That’s just ctm
gg you lost it get a new one
Maybe I’m just embracing too much idk

[bronze edge]

But here you're not exactly losing it no?

[finite lark]

No normal CTM has items that take more than a month to get solo

[gray mortar]

Not cuz i cant afford to replace it but its just too much of a waste of time

[tacit knot]

Some opinions should be kept to yourself

[bronze edge]

?

[dapper radish]

This isnt just a ctm, its also an mmo

[gray mortar]

Overreacting a bit

[vestal field]

It’s fair I’ll take that it’s a bit extreme

[dapper radish]

And furthermore its increasingly more common that ctms add death systems of their own because wiping your entire inventory is fairly extreme, so ctm devs apparently dont all agree with your take either

[gray mortar]

R3 is not ctm at all id say

[hoary knoll]

it doesn't even have a monument

yet

[finite lark]

monumenta has always been a CTM in story and an MMO in gameplay IMO.

[gray mortar]

Do we need a punishing system actually

[oblique kestrel]

Also by dropping items we def recognize that long-grinded for, valuable items shouldn't be straight up destroyed

[finite lark]

Since the R3 story is realtively young it doesnt feel that way

[gray mortar]

What would it accomplish

[dapper radish]

We dont

[finite lark]

without a punishing system you dont have any need to have build diversity

which makes balancing hell

again, "not dying" is not convincing to not build maximum glass.

[gray mortar]

We do not have it now

[dapper radish]

Its more that ppl are having difficulty with alternative methods to discourage certain things being kept in check by current death mechanics

[gray mortar]

Still some diversity is present

If you really want ppl to feel bad for dying just put a 30s forced wait before respawn or smth

[hoary knoll]

thats just annoying more than punishing

[tacit knot]

in a world of infusions that is quite literally everything

[dapper radish]

Annoying is a form of punishment

[gray mortar]

That is the point

Will you want to die and sit in a death screen for 30s

[dapper radish]

Idk about it being a good one but it is one

[vestal field]

I think it’s just what I like about ctm and to a certain extent monumenta
Actual challenge
Actual risk be reward
Actual resource management
Instead of farming for certain item and then another

[gray mortar]

Its not a good one certainly

[oblique kestrel]

Yes and?

[finite lark]

Maybe we just need to punish repeated deaths harshly

First death does nothing

Second death is really bad.

[hoary knoll]

erm

[gray mortar]

This maybe was true back then where there was no shatter

[tacit knot]

why would you even consider an item-drop system if literally everything in my inventory is the exception

[hoary knoll]

Several people are typing...

[gray mortar]

It is still true for new players ig

[bronze edge]

Honestly for a quick temporary solution I think the effects of shatter should be nerfed in labs/white like everyone said in one way or another

[gray mortar]

Ctm has resource management because it is a map that will end and all your resources will be irrelevant after that

[finite lark]

Tiered gear capping at shatter 1 is better

players dont magically fix their gear by orange

[bronze edge]

Yeah one of those solutions players proposed

[delicate perch]

if the dupes weren't a thing would graves have ever been removed to begin with

[finite lark]

(its me, im players)

[hoary knoll]

cover final white room lava with 1 layer of magma blocks so ghasts can play spleef with u

[oblique kestrel]

I said that they wouldn't be perma destroyed, didn't elaborate past that yet

[bronze edge]

I meant not having shatter be a huge problem early game one way or antoehr

[dapper radish]

I liked the earlier suggestion to replace a bunch of the lava with magma in white

[bronze edge]

Ruins the feeling of white imo

Maybe some of the lava but not all?

[hoary knoll]

prob

[gray mortar]

50/50 split

[bronze edge]

Like small islands of magma perhaps

[gray mortar]

Magma lava

[dapper radish]

Some of the lava pools being made 1-2 blocks deep instead of deep pits would help too

So u can actually escape

Notably the end room

[finite lark]

1 block deep lava gives fall damage

i think

[vestal field]

Yeah
Any gives fall damage actually
But you have to hit the ground

[finite lark]

deep enough lava slows you down fast enough where you cant take fall damage

[dapper radish]

Someone else also made a suggestion earlier about delves modifying the death system i liked

Would result in partial implementation of death mechanics scaling with progression

[lapis mountain]

As someone who enjoyed it, primarily because of how it encouraged teamwork/sticking together:

• I think the difference between solo and team play was a bit extreme, in both directions. Cyan tesseract the majority of the time made deaths too quick and easy to recover from while in a group, while solo faced higher risk situations a lot more often.
• Fairly high complexity within the limbo system, even if it is somewhat of an extension of vanilla mechanics (not as bad as Shatter though)
• No clean solution for R2 delves/all of R3 having high enough damage that you'd be one shot when running back
• Sometimes crippling when you fullshattered (the easiest out of all the problems to fix)

and I think in general a lot of people are averse to the idea of temporarily dropping items

(For all its issues, I do think present shatter has a lot more design flaws, they're just often more ignorable)

an idea I was fond of a while ago but less sure of now was essentially having the RC4 system for non-delves and a newer version of the limbo system in delve content

as well as introducing something like the soulcatcher which fills a similar role as the old cyan tesseract but more balanced between solo and group play
edit: I just remembered this also had a totem like RC4 in capital cities where you can pay a price to retrieve your grave from anywhere

[odd estuary]

It might have been eluded to earlier, but the issue with graves other than dupes is that a freshly dead player stays the same across regions, but the enemies don't. So while dying in R1 you can pretty safely get your grave, in R3 literally everything will just 1 tap you. The baseline of a player doesn't scale, only their gear so when you take that away (especially for most classes requiring an item to cast abilities with) it's a bit cooked, hence why we started keeping gear on death, but it's a bit nerfed (and also the dupe bugs lul)

[dapper radish]

Rather than applying debuffs, what do u think of shatter progressively disabling an item’s stats ala mainhand offregion penalty style

[finite lark]

this is effectively the same

[dapper radish]

It is not

Wearing shattered gear is worse than being naked

disabling item stats at worst case scenario puts u at the same as being naked w full shatter 3

[dapper radish]

Which admittedly does run into this issue

[finite lark]

technically the baseline does scale as you get more skills and level up, but its not significant enough to really matter.

[vestal field]

Disabling 6 agility is like
27% more damage
Just by -6 agility
As a reference point

[odd estuary]

Me when "while holding two swords"

[dapper radish]

Would having shatter repair costs scale with the amount of xp invested into infusions on an item be bad

Something like x% of infusion xp cost rounded up or down in anvils i guess

[finite lark]

then players will like just not infuse to level 4 so it doesnt cost as much

[dapper radish]

If u want to do that, go for it honestly

[delicate perch]

what if naked (or recently deceased) players had a certain level of resistance in r2/3 until their items were retrieved. could give them mining fatigue as well or otherwise prevent clearing/looting until the gear was collected

[lapis mountain]

that is the obvious fix but its not very elegant

[tacit knot]

mining fatigue to prevent clearing.... so you can softlock yourself!

eureka!!!

[delicate perch]

the simple solutions will come with too many issues and the convoluted ones will be inelegant. idk that there is a perfect answer

[lapis mountain]

there is an answer with too many issues that is convoluted though

[gray mortar]

The simple solution is leave late game shatter as is and remove/cap shatter on tiered and uncommon stuff

[tacit knot]

shatter of theseus

[vestal field]

I mean
would probably just use my other gear at base and kill the nearby mobs first
and then retrieve

[tacit knot]

imo if you're going to cap shatter on tiered/uncommon gear you might as well just cap it everywhere

[delicate perch]

why do shatter 2 and 3 even need to exist? its pretty inconvenient fighting anything with shatter 1 and you certainly wouldn't be incentivized to clear with it

[tacit knot]

that sounds genuinely horrible

and incongruent with how monumenta plays

[gray mortar]

Ngl with some of systems offered here i would just stop clearing normally and lr all pois and dungeons

[dapper radish]

I hate that lava and void r more punishing

Lava is a nonissue for pretty much anyone who can afford soulthreads so this punishes mostly newbies

[tacit knot]

i'd much rather use inexpensive anvils to cheese shatter than entire secondary/tertiary/quaternary gear sets

[lapis mountain]

I have never been fond of backup gear either though some people do associate it strongly with old graves

[finite lark]

technically if we simply remove death then there wont be any issues with death anymore

[dapper radish]

I also feel like shatter would benefit with more granuity

[tacit knot]

i speak in no uncertain terms that regressing back to item-drop graves will kill off my interest to play Monumenta

[delicate perch]

i never found using backup gear to be efficient but i do remember it being a common practice (or maybe im just thinking of ari)

[dapper radish]

Eg having it to be out of 100 instead of 3 and split the penalties accordingly so that shatter 100 would work the same as current shatter 3 so there’s more room for complexity

Or something

Would at least open up more options imo

[tacit knot]

shatter 100 🔥

[lapis mountain]

I think the initial reason was for lava/void to have a harsher punishment to simulate them previously being hazards

and repeat deaths give mining fatigue as a bandaid fix after someone saw a player rush through magenta or something with no care for dying in the slightest
(no one should take that as an invitation to say that its still possible to lootrun or any other variation of that same sentiment)

[odd estuary]

Yeah beforehand you had hope to save gear from lava/void. Dying normally was normal, dying in lava burnt most of your gear but kept some stuff and void was the same but with worse punishments - that was attempted to be kept across the changes

[tacit knot]

you died in nadir void, goodbye 180 pdia

[lapis mountain]

ian are you aware that your gear items never actually fully disappeared/deleted under previous graves

[dapper radish]

Whatever the death changes end up being, imo it’d probably be good if it was a system that allowed more room for customization

3 tiers of shattered doesnt exactly allow for much room for change

[odd estuary]

Hope is also another problem with current system - it's turned into being primarily for skins now lol whereas it was the best enchant ever to prevent death punishments before and it came free of charge on all epics

[naive inlet]

it doesnt seem right that this lava penalty is introduced so early actually

it just seems unfair to early game players

[tacit knot]

what am I missing

[lapis mountain]

the entire context

[tacit knot]

That’s just ctm
gg you lost it get a new one
Maybe I’m just embracing too much idk

[odd estuary]

That was pre-graves

[lapis mountain]

It was not 1-to-1 vanilla that was like 2017 monumenta

[delicate perch]

i understand the reaction to that but i don't think it really bandaids the real problem either-that the shatter system is entirely unintuitive to a newer player and without strong arming them into learning it with those pentalties they don't care enough to read what's happening to them. maybe that's their problem to bear, but i feel like its one of the mechs that cause people to part with the server

[odd estuary]

Graves would collect your gear inside of it if it got destroyed by lava/void/explosions etc and then apply shatter to them

[lapis mountain]

Yeah I mean I agree the current one is bad in a lot of ways

I saw someone stream monumenta and literally just play with mining fatigue

[tacit knot]

i assumed so, but the discussion was muddied with people posting that unironically

[naive inlet]

Topic: The Great Filter

How do we narrow the gap in difficulty between labs and white?

[finite lark]

buff labs nerf white

[naive inlet]

that's too easy a fix isnt it?

plus it doesnt seem right in terms of progression

you'd put labs at 2 stars at that point and white would be 3 stars instead of four

[finite lark]

i mean labs mobs are weaker than vanilla mobs

they move slower deal less damage and some have less hp

[delicate perch]

pre grave era was actually my favourite time on the server, but after they added infusions and quintupled the number of epics in the game it was clear that they couldn't continue that way

[naive inlet]

i think newbies should be given the directive to explore the overworld first before tackling white

that way the difficulty jump isnt too steep

[tacit knot]

the tutorialization in Monumenta is generally pretty bad, having multiple sets of "tutorial content" that doesn't really explain much and then completely disappears once you leave labs

[naive inlet]

and newbies can pick and choose which pois they want to conquer first too

[tacit knot]

the nexus is not a tutorial

[lapis mountain]

wouldn't it be so cool to rework the tutorial...

[tacit knot]

😁

[dapper radish]

I dont think labs needs a buff

[naive inlet]

what if newbies were introduced to king's bounties before white?

[dapper radish]

Apparently ppl have issue with labs, even

[naive inlet]

i feel like that progression seems reasonable

[naive inlet]

labs is too dirt easy even for an early game player

[tacit knot]

the dungeons themselves aren't even really the problems so much as the earlygame quest routing kinda slightshots players towards white in t2 gear when doing something as simple as grabbing the watcher's sword is a masssive advantage

[dapper radish]

So its not doing a very good job of introducing monumenta concepts apparently

[dapper radish]

For you maybe

[vestal field]

but then you have orange
clearly the problem is white not the build up or anything

[dapper radish]

The quit rate for labs says otherwise

[tacit knot]

labs is just a pretty boring dungeon i'm not going to lie

[dapper radish]

U need to remember ctms are a novel concept to most ppl

[naive inlet]

white itself is super punishing, the build up to white is just too little

which steepens the difficulty

[dapper radish]

A lot of mechanics are in fact not intuitive to ppl in monumenta

[vestal field]

and it's downhill from there
the hill is white and we want a slope

[thick totem]

labs is undeniably easy, it's simply too boring and the layout is awful with all the dead ends/backtracking

[naive inlet]

id like to think the traditions in ctms shouldn't translate to monumenta in full, but rather in spirit

[lapis mountain]

I wrote this rough explanation of the previous system specifically for you half a year ago @tacit knot

if it was unclear clicking a grave also restores the items in limbo
and "team experience" is more like an optional extra set of points if you have Friends

[tacit knot]

thanks nicknon

[delicate perch]

independent of the death/shatter system, i don't think monumenta has ever been new player friendly. even when i joined it felt like you really had to want to learn about the server to appreciate it properly, and i don't think that has changed even if the mechs have

[naive inlet]

i honestly preferred this grave system more

[tacit knot]

so the two major punishments that aren't present in the current system
inventory shatter and respawning naked

[lapis mountain]

as well as not costing pennies

[vestal field]

yeah repairing shatter used to cost an arm and an leg
maybe even more

[naive inlet]

true enough but the server doesnt have to nerf its early game experience to cater to newbies who are still getting the hang of it, some things could just be rearranged to set the player in being "shown the ropes"

[tacit knot]

the cost is kinda superficial it just sets the bar for irrelevancy higher

[lapis mountain]

can you lose 50 hcs right now ian and not worry about it

[tacit knot]

liquid or in items

[lapis mountain]

liquid

you probably can tbf a few times but its not superficial

[naive inlet]

first timers in white have two skills, the shatter system isnt friendly to new players so why not give players the opportunity to gather more resources before embarking on white

[tacit knot]

fair enough

i dunno, i think there's ways to make death punishing in ways beyond

pay a toll of arbitrary value

[delicate perch]

i agree i think they shouldn't nerf early game, but layers upon layers of mech's like there are now don't necessitate difficulty as much as they do confusion

[dapper radish]

Technically, explaining things is a nerf in difficulty

One I am all for

[delicate perch]

which is why things should be more intuitive, not requiring excessive explanation. this of course is easier said than done

[naive inlet]

real question is where the fuck is that early "roguelike" content Michael288p was working on ywars ago?

[tacit knot]

like for example i think it'd be more interesting to tax the players in the dungeon loot they're about to earn rather than their existing wealth

[naive inlet]

yeah but it isnt exactly healthy to the experience

[dapper radish]

Delete an endchest whenever u die

[naive inlet]

could you imagine being bombarded with walls of text just to understand how the server works

i wanna play the game not read a fucking manual

employ the socratic method in the early game

[lapis mountain]

this happens while you are in a gui

[naive inlet]

FUCKING EXACTLY

[tacit knot]

but then you run into antisocial behavior where you gatekeep people out of your instances because they can literally throw

[tacit knot]

and this doesn't even explain the new auto deletion behavior :)

[dapper radish]

Endchests are per player so also doesnt have that issue

[naive inlet]

the idea of taxing the lootroom as punishment to death is already antisocial

[tacit knot]

that is what i just said

[naive inlet]

no not precisely

the grave system at the moment isnt perfect but changing it isnt the correct approach to ensuring newbies dont ragequit

the real problem at hand is the gap between labs and white

[dapper radish]

Multiple problems can exist simultaneously

[gray mortar]

In my opinion experience should have been much more applicable from the start and also be lost in strikes/cz/gallery and everywhere

And crimson contract would not exist

[naive inlet]

yeah but the bottomline is the ragequitter wouldn't game-end if they were given the opportunity to prepare for the first wool dungeon

[dapper radish]

Dont u lose xp in strikes

[thick totem]

a problem with delaying white is that most people view dungeons as the "real content", while quests and overworld is filler and bad. Especially those with CTM background

[naive inlet]

which pois do players run into before white

[gray mortar]

Dont think so but you certainly do not lose it in cz

[dapper radish]

Pretty sure its just endless content that is xp safe, no?

cz is an exception

It is the only nonendless content that doesnt

[tacit knot]

cave of secrets now is better than most of the r1 dungeons 😄

[naive inlet]

doesn't this just mean players shouldnt be taking white too lightly then? if its the "real" content then why are newbies thrown into it after only two quests

[tacit knot]

maybe recency bias but the only reason people disregard r1 overworld is that it's 2016 SMP quality builds, at least it used to be.

[vestal field]

we used to have filler fetch quests
they are massively reworked from the ground up and is now more concise

[delicate perch]

CTM background probably describes something like 2% of players, but regardless of that i still think a majority of players would agree that quests are considerably less interesting than dungeons

[gray mortar]

Well

[naive inlet]

there has been an effort to improving the r1 overworld

[gray mortar]

You are most likely correct

[tacit knot]

that's what I said

[naive inlet]

not precisely

[gray mortar]

But the point is not really about that its more about just losing exp should feel worse because it is used in more things

[thick totem]

they aren't thrown into it, they jump in there head first because that's how you progress, that's how you get skill points, that's where the good gear is

[gray mortar]

And endless content should not lose or gain exp

That is my idea for punishing system

[oblique kestrel]

• it feels good to get started on the path to completing the game

[thick totem]

and then they hit the absolute beginner unfriendliness

[tacit knot]

Correct

[naive inlet]

yeah but this just becomes a stereotype for newbies who go into white willy nilly

[twin sedge]

I didn’t read everything but was not making tiered items shatter said

[gray mortar]

It is probably not feasible now that people have thousands of levels lying around

[naive inlet]

there's a difficulty on the key no?

[delicate perch]

don't most people seeking help in global chat get directed to do the white quest by like everyone too

[gray mortar]

It was

[tacit knot]

There are actually a lot of good R1 uncommons that you can find if you know which PoIs to look in. But there's no way you'd be able to discern that without prior knowledge

[twin sedge]

And was it denied

[gray mortar]

Kinda

[twin sedge]

Why

[naive inlet]

which is exactly why i think players should tackle the overworld first before engaging the "real content"

[tacit knot]

Correct

[oblique kestrel]

Band-aid fix that adds complexity to an already complex system

[twin sedge]

What was the proposed solution even then

[tacit knot]

There are a lot of quest uncommons and good PoI gear that could be routed through
at the very least you could have a subsection of the mainline quest GUI that says "recommended upgrades :)"

[gray mortar]

Dont think there were any that majority here liked

[naive inlet]

anyone think its stupid that players get warned not to go into the Narsen Sea? why isnt there a warning at Grove?

[twin sedge]

The game used to drop all your items on the ground, like

[gray mortar]

Original was just delete shatter

[twin sedge]

Shattering is far better than that system

[vestal field]

death system is just hard to make everyone agree at once

[gray mortar]

Yes

[twin sedge]

I’m ngl, the game is difficult, but how can you remove the only thing that makes it bad to die

[naive inlet]

the current death system was only ever implemented cuz dupers kept exploiting the previous one

[gray mortar]

It doesnt make it bad to die tho

Its like whatever let me use 5 anvils from my 375 stacks

[twin sedge]

That’s end game though

Isn’t that fair that you can bypass it at some point

[gray mortar]

That is all game since market unlock

[naive inlet]

the old system made it so even endgame players would get their wallets broken in half if they shattered

[vestal field]

it started to feel that way really fast
like maybe mid r2 if you're good

[twin sedge]

I guess, I still collect my grave

[vestal field]

and majority here I believe are endgame

[twin sedge]

Fennec

[gray mortar]

Yea same it probably feels lonely

[naive inlet]

i havent beaten hexfall am i endgame

[twin sedge]

Fix the game

[gray mortar]

???

[twin sedge]

@gray mortar ^

That’s your job

[vestal field]

I haven't either I'm too irl busy and allergic to infusion

[gray mortar]

Bruh go wake up properly and take your meds

Im not a dev

[twin sedge]

Ok

[gray mortar]

Actually read the convo aswell

[twin sedge]

I mean what’s the goal of shatter

[naive inlet]

r3 infusion costs are egregious

[naive inlet]

current one fucks over lootrunners but not as well as the previous one did

[gray mortar]

Nah like two cz rushes

[twin sedge]

Is that the goal?

Lootrunners don’t die like ever

[naive inlet]

not precisely

[deep geode]

Because the Narsen sea is very much accessible to a blind lvl 2 player while grove is not and is generally pretty hidden.

[dapper radish]

This was already covered extensively

[naive inlet]

good point, a warning at Grove could still be implemented regardless

[deep geode]

That's what I think is the reason at least.

That is true but that is if someone wants to do that

[gray mortar]

Nothing fucks over lootrunning in this game

If you implement a punishing death system people are actually gonna be more likely to lootrun

[naive inlet]

previous system cucked loot runners if they ever perished by making them butt ass naked on death

[gray mortar]

Because you simply do not die

[dapper radish]

So irrelevant then

[gray mortar]

So just deathrun instead of lootrun?

[twin sedge]

Previous system was just vanilla…

Was it not

[naive inlet]

no it wasn't

[gray mortar]

Vanilla but with items stored in grave

[twin sedge]

Didn’t you drop your inventory where you died in a grave

Tag

Yeah*

[gray mortar]

Thats not vanilla...

[twin sedge]

So vanilla without it running out of time

[vestal field]

^
not vanilla

[naive inlet]

that system was much more cooler imo

group dungeons were fun

[twin sedge]

So complicated

[naive inlet]

teamwork fucking mattered in that one

[gray mortar]

Its not complicated

[twin sedge]

Complicated for my pea brain

[gray mortar]

Its just grave loot with shatter

[naive inlet]

average lootrunner

[naive inlet]

limbo*

[gray mortar]

Do not insult yourself that is my job

[naive inlet]

grave loot isnt shattered yet until the player died again

[twin sedge]

Hey, I haven’t loot ran since I came back

Oh wait nvm I did in willows

[naive inlet]

so much of the time waiting for your items to get saved was when someone in your dungeon picked up your shit and tapped your grave to save them from limbo

then they'd send your grave over with cyan tess

fuck i miss that system sm

[twin sedge]

Is that not more punishing than shatter

[gray mortar]

It is

Some people here want more punishing system

[twin sedge]

So then… does it really solve the issue. Also is this even an issue

[naive inlet]

if you died with your shit in limbo you'd spend upwards of 128+ HCS to unshatter your entire inventory

price depending on how many epics, shulkers, artis you have in your inventory that got shattered

i invested in a second inventory cuz of that shit lol

[vestal field]

it's a little complex yeah
so
when you die you drop items (besides everything with Persistence)
if you get it in time nothing happens
if the item were to be destroyed (lava, despawn, etc) they will be in limbo
if you die again they shatter
and shatter is 100 bucks

[naive inlet]

that way i didnt have to spend that much ASAP and i could still continue playing

[twin sedge]

Ahh that makes sense

Thanks

[naive inlet]

the golden age of monumenta died when the grave system got changed

group delves practically became just a bunch of solo players that didnt need to coordinate well

if you had a boatload of anvils then you wouldnt fucking need to worry about shatter anymore

game just becomes too easy

current grave system ushered in brainrot

since the game got too easy, players raked in mats super fucking quickly

[lapis mountain]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1134852913735421963/1346139463168036885/image.webp?ex=67c71992&is=67c5c812&hm=1c7d0dabfdc7ffa1838e5b35ad6c01f48f642003e43ede5adcb744a28ab69be2&

[naive inlet]

mats being less than 32ccs per is still weird to me

back then seeing a mat in a chest was like striking diamonds in survival

like fuck yea a mat

[gray mortar]

I fail to see how that system would actually stop lootrunning

[naive inlet]

nowadays it's pretty much, "cool, a mat"

[gray mortar]

If any it would encourage it

[naive inlet]

lootrunning was less efficient in that system

[gray mortar]

Wasnt it actually less risky and more effective

Since mats cost more and you get them much faster and risk less stuff

[naive inlet]

losing your entire inventory and risking spending 2hhcs for some loot?

[vestal field]

well no cuz all the mobs you don't kill will guard your stuff

and you have nothing on you

[naive inlet]

yea it was less efficient

[gray mortar]

You do not need your entire inventory to lr

[vestal field]

so if you ever die its gg

[gray mortar]

You dont even need half of it

[naive inlet]

you do need to not be naked

[vestal field]

you drop everything on death
besides compass and sliver

[gray mortar]

This is not wrong but it would also apply to full normal cleaf in that system just aswell

[rough spire]

https://tenor.com/view/whiplash-milesteller-jksimmons-gif-5318252

[gray mortar]

Esp solo

[vestal field]

in normal clear you kill mobs so it's way easier to get to your grave

[gray mortar]

Didnt they despawn

[naive inlet]

does bro know

[vestal field]

you also mine spawners

[gray mortar]

If they did not then you could still get there in second lr set

Also in r3 at least to actually die in full lr set you need to actively try

[naive inlet]

yeah up until you die in that one as well and now the 1st lr set flooded your inventory

[gray mortar]

Right now

Maybe

[naive inlet]

that shit dont go to your shulkers in the end chest no, they went to your inventory and flooded it

so even if you had a 2nd lootrun set you'd still be halted

[gray mortar]

I cant say for certain are you correct or no because i started actually playing around cz release

[naive inlet]

ive been playing since 2020

back when graves never existed and yellow was scary cuz you'd permalose your shit

[gray mortar]

I can agree that prev system was better for coop

For actual teamwork

[vestal field]

boy I tunneled a lot of dungeons
pink lg yellow

[naive inlet]

dungeon coop is dead in monumenta

[gray mortar]

Mm ig so

Never experienced actual coop

In dungeons, in cz rush there is coop

In gallery lmao

[naive inlet]

i actually like gallery

[gray mortar]

I do like gallery

But it is a buggy mess and undercooked

[naive inlet]

calling it dinosaur content is harsh but its more fun than whatever the fuck ec or rod is

[gray mortar]

They both suck, ec and rod

[naive inlet]

i have no idea how TM could implement a grave system that worked as well as the previous one but still do right with the benefits of the current one

it just doesnt seem feasible

[gray mortar]

My suggestion was making exp more valuable so you actually lose money from dying

[naive inlet]

i doubt there was any thorough consideration for the implications of implementing the current grave system

[oblique kestrel]

Oh there was

Some foreseen and disregarded, some not foreseen

[vestal field]

when I saw the grave rework I was shocked
cuz it's so much more free and there's no way it's that cheap
and it is

[naive inlet]

killing dungeon coop along with the old grave system didnt seem like it was ever thought of in its full gravity

[naive inlet]

the mat economy fell along with its implementation

[upbeat mural]

I have no idea how you're making that connection

[naive inlet]

lootrunning was much easier with the current grave system

[proud urchin]

It was always easy?

[naive inlet]

and that just continued over time

[proud urchin]

Its not as skill based as you make it out to be

[thick totem]

dungeon coop aka nullifying the consequences of dying and putting solo players at a MASSIVE disadvantage

[naive inlet]

id argue solo players were actually good at that time and wouldnt take a delve that was too much for them to handle

[gray mortar]

I doubt average player skill went down

[thick totem]

lava and void are the same, delve or not

[naive inlet]

no its just that deaths dont matter anymore

[gray mortar]

They dont matter yea

[naive inlet]

back when dungeon coop with randoms incentivized being communicative
"ill get your grave sit still"

now its "lmfao how did u die to that"

[gray mortar]

Idk from one side i can see where you coming from but if i want to get destroyed in a high pts i shouldnt be forced into 1000 hcs debt i think

[naive inlet]

choosing to get destroyed at the risk of that cost is already rather questionable

[gray mortar]

Exactly why i can do that right now with no consequences

There is less coop and communication now but there is also more freedom

[naive inlet]

dying isnt consequential to an end game player anymore

[gray mortar]

Yea im not arguing against that

It really is not

[naive inlet]

then there's the fact that newbies cant fucking deal with dying so much in early game

the scales are tipped

[gray mortar]

White is badly designed difficulty spike

[naive inlet]

it isnt a bad dungeon, again, id rather there be a proper build up to the "real" content rather than going in headfirst

almost all the fucking time a content creator suggests this server they say "bring your friends" why? because the fucking early game sucks when you're doing it alone

[gray mortar]

If we actually had content creators...

[naive inlet]

youtube.com/Leiyam

[naive inlet]

derailious and looniitick both suggested to bring friends in their videos on monumenta

[gray mortar]

They also both kinda left

[gray mortar]

Cool videos

However two uploads in 10 months

[naive inlet]

yeah because the server got boring after realizing its too easy at endgame

[gray mortar]

Ngl i wanted a real challenge from skr

[naive inlet]

infusing your shit feels like a reward after not dying like a bellend so much

[gray mortar]

Not a pushover

[proud urchin]

Too easy when people shat brix at hexfall

We live in a society

[gray mortar]

Only challenge rn is a18 ig

[naive inlet]

i never conquered hexfall

[gray mortar]

Hexfall is not difficult

[proud urchin]

[vestal field]

doesn't looni said that he want to see early game fixed before he can suggest it

[naive inlet]

yeah

[gray mortar]

Rather it is difficult only for first clear

[naive inlet]

and where are we rn in this discussion

[gray mortar]

Around that topic yes

[naive inlet]

early game still being unbalanced as shit

[proud urchin]

What exactly is shatter supposed to accomplish besides being a penalty for dying

[naive inlet]

it isnt even a penalty if you're loaded on anvils

[thick totem]

it doesn't need to be anything else

[naive inlet]

they nerfed anvil costs as well

[gray mortar]

It is penalty for dying that is what it accomplished

[naive inlet]

from 30 to 25

[proud urchin]

Yet it gives debuffs for being shattered and level 3 gives nasty debuffs

[gray mortar]

Well its not in endgame yea

[naive inlet]

whats the point if you have an entire shulkerbox band aiding your skill issues

[vestal field]

yeah it's just penalty for dying
so that you fear death
and is encouraged to play better and not die

[gray mortar]

Or play slower

[naive inlet]

you dont fear death in the endgame, you can just purchase your soul at the cost of 15 anvils

[proud urchin]

Pretending anvils doesnt exist (because atp they are also at fault here), it just discourage dying because of the mean debuffs

[vestal field]

yeah so this system does not do a good job at it

[naive inlet]

it punishes the poor, and tickles the rich

[naive inlet]

punish the rich by making it so you have to pick up your grave in order to repair your shit, otherwise anvils wont work

if i suggested this itd be down voted because society would rather see the poor suffer than suffer with them

the fat line their pockets even more

[proud urchin]

Wtf 😟

Its a video game i think theyre supposed to be fun

And if losing isnt fun then ermmm wtf !

[thick totem]

🍵

[real marten]

Monumenta classic when
R1 and the r1 dungeons, no infusions, drop items on death, reset monthly

[finite lark]

wither white

[real marten]

The actual way to make death meaningful is to make harder content kick you out if you die too many times (or vanish the rest of the loot chests so you can still complete it and grab anything you left in it

Because you can't reset terrain in instanced content to a previous save state

And it would be insane to rework all instanced content to have resetable encounters

[proud urchin]

If you mean content like dungeons then I just 'd

[real marten]

It'd be like 15 deaths at 25pt and 5 deaths at chall

You can still play it for the thrill you just don't count to loot scaling anymore

[cinder gyro]

surely I won't implement "layered" worlds (immutable, base layer + deltas) and make this feature feasible

[rare bronze]

even then i think people doing challs (in lfg) don't care about the loot anymore, they just want to get the clear over with

the few i remember doing in lfg i asked if others cared about loot and they were basically like "nah" so for something like forum we all ended up at 4 mats each or something, pretty much a pitiful amount

[craggy cobalt]

well yeah you wouldnt do challs for loot

its a bonus

[proud urchin]

I totally f w/ the idea that theres limited lives in challenge delves, rather than losing loot you lose the trophy

[craggy cobalt]

will be too much pain for how the delves are implemented

especially stuff like chall forum

where stuff literally one shots you randomly

dying in delves isnt just a skill issue it just happens sometimes no matter how good you are and thats just delves with arcanic vengeful carapace mobs

and you wouldnt want to make challenges 2x longer than it currently is

if you "just be careful"

which is kinda impossible with how they are currently

[dapper radish]

this is the wrong feedback thread oops

[real marten]

it is unironically a skill issue

especially with 4 ppl

[austere talon]

It's the opposite, dying is a skill issue with solo

4 people suck ass if some idiot rushed ahead, ignores mobs and just loot runs and dies

[real marten]

thats the idiot's skill issue

yes I run lfg challs because I want more challenge, so I appreciate people being bad at clearing

[austere talon]

Not according to your logic

[real marten]

what logic

I dont use logic

I use feelings and vibes

[austere talon]

You said "it's a skill iss-you no matter what kind of death, even if the idiot leaves behind all the mobs"

And left you to handle 4 twisted clerics

[real marten]

yeah its a skill issue, it just isnt yours

someone played bad and now the team gets punished

[austere talon]

hmmmm

[real marten]

exactly how hard content is like

[austere talon]

well then playing 4 players is bad cuz there's people like that (unless everyone plays lr build)

[real marten]

I guess you should solo HF too

oh wait

[austere talon]

We're talking about soloable dungeons

[real marten]

there's such a thing as having a good team

if you can't handle 3 people running off and triggering spawners and dying, you can attempt the chall with said good team

[austere talon]

Yeah but there's a good reason to kick a bad player in hf, but not in normal dungeons

[real marten]

have you ever heard of vetting

[austere talon]

You can't claim all loot for yourself becuase the other 3 was being bad

No I'm not an animal I don't go to the vet

*own an animal

[real marten]

I think you just want to be a contrarian and not even about something fun like "actually challs should fullwipe you"

Ill come back once it's fun

[austere talon]

No I just hate teammates

*human

*humanity

*don't trust in

[shy bay]

Someone may have already said this, but if anything I think the mining fatigue could be removed

• There is no reason for it to exist
• punishes people trying to get back to their grave in the first place
• doesn't do anything to endgame players that have hundreds of anvils that will just repair their gear instead of dealing with the fatigue
• puts a bitter taste in early game players' mouths after dying multiple times to get back to their grave to no avail

I really don't see why the mining fatigue is a thing in the first place, 60% less dmg and 60% more dmg taken is enough of a "punishment" for dying when progressing through the game

[craggy cobalt]

so true

[delicate canyon]

I think capping shatter at level 1 until they complete orange (where it goes to 2, and then maybe lb -> 3) could also help

[craggy cobalt]

no i think rarity based cap is good

tiered shatter 0 uncommon shatter 1 rare 2 arti+ 3

[delicate canyon]

I think that's also good

[odd estuary]

fr you do them for guaranteed astral

[rare bronze]

the pictured comment aside, while a cap of 1 would be great i think the whole point of lava in white is to teach you that you shatter twice in lava. players would be confused later if they somehow fall in that lava pit in orange and suddenly get shatter 2

[naive inlet]

so basically 0 punishment for dying now yeah?

[oblique kestrel]

No I meant the whole shatter level system would be replaced

Death should still feel meaningful/punishing

Whether you're new or endgame

[dapper radish]

This was already covered

#1346011206418432031 message

[cobalt mica]

It’s over 700

Any tl;dr

[gaunt crag]

this part

[cobalt mica]

Isn’t correct shatter system design for easier lootrun progression catch and no spawn kill

Oh shatter mechanism is punishment? Not just lose a few levels and anvils hmm

[oblique kestrel]

One of its goals was to be easier on new players, but because of anvils and its design complexity it kinda failed to do that

[quasi ravine]

the actual problem is no player is going to leave the dungeon when they hit level 25 and acquire 1 (one) anvil

[oblique kestrel]

Losing anvils hurts as a new player, but so does just dying on its own, as it means you can't build up enough levels to buy anvils. Though you could argue new players should be p. crys-ing their shattered gear and replacing it with fresh stuff, there is something to be said about player attachment to their gear

[cobalt mica]

Ikr the works and effort put in so what I said is half joking

I do not have good idea to “solve” it either

[oblique kestrel]

Oh lol I get you now

Yep

[cobalt mica]

Tho one of change I forgor when added , move experimenter into white is one of good move

[oblique kestrel]

That was super recently, maybe a month ago

[cobalt mica]

Only thing I have negative experience of current shatter despawn mech buggy on golem type enemies

[cobalt mica]

oh when I was beginner I really hoping gatekeeper can help me exchange exp to anvil

[quasi ravine]

honestly a great idea

[cobalt mica]

@ panderz
Any opinion before I add this to sug bot

[vestal field]

That’s probably a good idea
Unless tm started working on a new death system already

[cobalt mica]

Ye not need rework whole system but good QoL and not broken change for new players

[vestal field]

Problem with these qol changes is that who is to tell said beginner
And how many qol features do they have to memorize

[oblique kestrel]

I'm surprised we haven't done it before, there may be a reason

But I don't recall it atm

Might be putting a little too many features on 1 NPC

[cobalt mica]

ye just a minor thoughts ,

[rare bronze]

the multitool npc

[molten tinsel]

I remember playing R1 when the more comfy version of Graves System existed, and honestly? I really miss early game R1 back in the day. I didn't use Rares until Light Blue Dungeon, and used mostly T4 gear after Orange. Something I really liked in early game R1 with Graves V2 was how cautious it felt using higher end gear. So I stuck to having back up gear and keeping the sets that are really powerful but had Curse of Binding for harder dungeons was neat. It felt like everything had weight and decision making to play it safe and that pushes players to find ways to find and discover ways to get stocked up for harder content like Dungeons. I remember farming Ziggurant POI to get tons of back up T2 sets, potions, and food using White Dungeon overworld teleport. I remember going to the NPC in Sierhaven to fuse T1 and T2 gear into powerful T3 and T4 gear for early game. I remember setting up a Cow Farm in my Plots and using Searing Sword to get a Steak supply. I remember doing Weekly Alchemy Labs for more resources and the free Anvil. I remember loving ow T2 or lower gear isn't dropped on death. In Early game, it was never worth repairing Tiered gear so better to just sell and have backups, and Anvils were a luxury as 30 levels was a lot for a single piece, and having to travel all the way to the Repair Station made having backups a lot better. Shattering was also way more costly, costing 1 HXP to repair per Rare. But, that what I liked about R1. It felt like everything had impact and when it pushed you to find ways with either Survival Minecraft knowledge or neat tricks you can do Early Game to push forwards.

[craggy cobalt]

me when i either lose my 500 har full infused set or pay 150 har

[molten tinsel]

Every hit, every stat difference, every decision you did had weight and matter in gameplay. You were rewarded for thinking and the inherited risk vs reward of using higher end gear but it being devasting when you die with it. And, when you did have to use Repair good items, there's always a part of the player that makes them think, "If I squeeze a bit more durability out of my gear, I can save myself the trip to the Repair Station. I remember having to buy Anvils and it takings a chunk out of my wallet in Reverie and Early R2, and that pushed me to play a different class and optimize my class's toolsets. Nowadays, tons of QoL changes and Lime Tesseract makes the risk and reward of choosing to use Tiered gear over Rares nonexistent, which makes me enjoy classic CTMs that don't have the current Grave system. However, I understand the current system is made to be more welcoming to new players. All ofnthe things that I said tho, like backup gear, fusion trading, cow farming. Is still all possible before White Dungeon, and if anyone is struggling before White, best advice to give them, is to guide them to think outside the box. That's the magic of Monumenta, it's very Survival Minecraft rooted and encourages players to explore it's systems :>

[craggy cobalt]

obviously it doesnt work right now

[molten tinsel]

I remember the devastation people in King's Armor had when they had to Repair using 16HXP, not including the various Shulker Boxes that had to be repaired xD

[real marten]

that was so fire

[quasi ravine]

i remember my first experience with monumenta was dying, seeing like 9 billion hxp cost to repair

quite literally going:

https://tenor.com/view/money-wallet-broke-gif-7855913

and logged off

[molten tinsel]

Oh, another thing I forgot to mention, something also magical about R1. It really sells the CTM magic of "always practice caution." White's traps like the glass floor with chest, to be ambushed by a bunch of mobs, and greedily trying to mine that spawner above Lava that spawns Blazes teaches players to think a lot during combat and encourages players to either adapt or overcome, pushing further the feeling of "your decisions matter a lot in gameplay and thinking is rewarded" that I loved a lot of R1 <3

[molten tinsel]

And yeaaa, it was a rough world to repair (thank gods Rares only costed 20 Levels to repair from Dura ;w;)

[vestal field]

This is also what I have enjoyed, the need to think about everything
The only bad thing about the previous death system is that it costs specifically money
I wish it cost something else while being on the same level of punishment
But I did not think of anything that would fit

[delicate canyon]

Go fight your shade in the gulag otherwise your gear gets a shatter level

[twin sedge]

I mean if it costs a fair bit of anvils then it can’t be that bad

But that will bring the same issues as the current shatter system so

[vestal field]

Yeah new players just gonna suffer even more

[cosmic wedge]

do a skr combat room to get ur gear back

[molten scaffold]

some new player thoughts about what I like about current systems
context: I just finished blue, haven't done brown yet, mostly play solo or with one other friend. I am bad at minecraft combat but think I generally make decent decisions on a strategic level and a big part of why I like MM is that I feel like this matters

1. white is very memorable. would not like it to get significant nerfs (other than help dealing with shatter). I had a very good experience even as a fairly bad player. maybe it feels generic now to people who have done a lot of monumenta content but it is what sold me on the game. this post is basically how I feel <#1346011206418432031 message>
2. at the point I'm at shatter has mostly started not mattering to me - but I do like it a lot as a "scoring system", if that makes sense. I do actually try to avoid it, I specifically care about not dying on the way back to my grave/not dying in lava/void. and I feel like that's sort of a fun play pattern, sometimes you need to play carefully and sometimes it's not a big deal if you die
3. less about shatter and more about xp but saving up xp for infusions is a form of death penalty that specifically matters more for skilled players/easier content? when I'm in a dungeon I do not even consider trying to get a lot of xp to store in contract or get infusions, I am generally just making anvils as appropriate. but when I'm in a poi it is often a question of "will I die once or not" that makes "try to stack up xp for an infusion" an appealing goal

[twin sedge]

In end game, XP is the large deterrent from death, more than anything else from my experience. Having your levels wiped is very annoying and a waste of a lot of time. Basic and delve infusions both requires immense amounts of XP to max each piece of gear so that’s where it really comes into play.

Before that, when you’re still unlocking basic epics and doing the content, infusions are irrelevant and so is XP, you should be converting all your xp to anvils until you feel ready to start infusions. Once you reach that point, XP pretty much all goes into infusing.

[molten scaffold]

(at the moment I am still unlocking stuff but like to get the first 40 level infusion on anything I intend to use for a bit)

[coral rain]

we should go back to dropping everything

[naive inlet]

finally something i can agree with

[pine laurel]

imo just keep the grave and shattered but add a new single use item that are given to the new players for free, which after consuming the item it will deduct 1 shatter from ur whole armor set

u could decide to sell this item to get the currency to buy better gears. Since old players don't really need this, it shouldn't impact the game that much

[vestal field]

said single use item is called 5 anvils

• one time use to repair your armor
• can be sold for money at stonkco
• given to new players for free in mainline quests

[pine laurel]

new player got way too less anvils and they offen have to swap armor when they got shattered because of this

maybe giving more anvil is also a choice, so ur right

[coral rain]

what if like

we still drop a grave like now

but everything on you goes into it

you must click it to get it back

as compensation nothing gets shattered

ever

[gaunt crag]

How would you intend this to work with lava and void death?

I think the extra threat of hard shatter from those hazards is a pretty important part of monumenta, even though it probably is less existent than wanted currently due to anvils being dirt cheap

[vestal field]

I think the point is that you have to get to your grave
if you die in lava or void you also don't have the greatest way to get to your grave without dying again

[finite lark]

realistically most lava deaths would be very similar to a regular death

[vestal field]

yeah since fire res is so accessible

[dapper radish]

Anyone who carries their stuff on them is gonna have a really bad time

[coral rain]

its never gone

you just need to get them

[dapper radish]

With what

Experiencator is post white encouraging newbies to sell their items frequently instead of stashing it at spawn, shulkers encourage you to carry your backup gear on you, your quiver was probably on you, your utility items and loom/firm were probably on you

You better have known to carry a backup supply of armor, weapons, tools, blocks, arrows in your echest

And there better be an echest available nearby to access it

If u cyan tess or slept in a bed you’d better have remembered to plop an echest down too

[last bloom]

make death real in endgame fr

[vestal field]

I mean that is just old death system without the shatter part
Honestly 🤔
People who full shatter all went through a terrible process of retrieving, followed by a terrible process of paying that debt
We can dip the last part and keep the former part
It solves issue 1 of having to pay tremendous amount to unshatter
But the other issue of r2/3 mobs one shotting you is still there

[twin sedge]

IMO the system doesn’t work well with R2 and R3 because everything is buffed up

Not only the one shots, but content is longer, more punishing, and overall just more difficult. By removing all gear on death you risk either locking people out of content or making the retrieval process extremely taxing. I think it will push more people away rather than solve the core issues with the shatter system that were highlighted in this post.

[molten girder]

yeah i think a lot of solutions here are only addressed towards "death isn't punishing enough for endgame players, make it worse" and not "death is too punishing for beginner players, make it better"

[hexed ether]

Punishing endgame should be ability wise than gear wise

[naive inlet]

would it be feasible to make the death system change in difficulty per region