#Why aren't bosses designed with multiple hitboxes?

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frigid spruce
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Genuine question here. Why aren't some bosses designed as multisegmented or with multiple hitboxes?

tl;dr: Class variety would be improved in applicable boss fights if some bosses were given multiple weak points that could be hit with a single ability, given optional weakpoints that only certain classes can fully benefit from, or occasionally spawn weakpoints temporarily that certain classes could take advantage of.

Before you Mage speech bubble me, please hear me out.
I get that some bosses like Harrakfar and Orasomn where you do have to kite should be single segmented for practical reasons. I also get that some bosses should be single segmented based on design.
However, what's stopping a boss that contributes very little with its melee attacks, moves very little, or is literally a giant hitbox from having multiple segments or multiple hitboxes. Throwing out a few here, Sirius, Vesp, or even Ru'Ten to a degree.

I really don't think this is a shocking thing or something unprecedented. In fact, I feel like it's quite a common solution in other games to solve the single target vs aoe issue. It's quite common in Turn Based Games to have Bosses that can be hit multiple times with a single move to prioritize different abilities at different points. Other bosses in action games have multiple parts on their body (arms, body, head, etc.) to give a little more priority to AOE abilities.

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Yes I know there are bosses like Godspore and Broodmother which are multisegmented. However, their segments tend to be spread out to a degree. Yes I know you can hit both segments at once on Broodmother (and maybe more with a few abilities), but that's generally rarer and only with certain abilities. And yes I do understand that Godspore's segments can spawn relatively close to each other, but that's generally when no one kills any weak points. Even then not many abilities can consistently hit multiple at once.

In my eyes, a multi-segmented boss is a boss with multiple hitboxes for a purpose. This does not just mean a stack of 3 creepers sitting on each other. Two or three weakpoints could be put next to each other. The boss could have weakpoints in the form of vexes. The boss could occasionally spawn a ring of weakpoints around it to deal extra damage to. Weakpoints could also be in a line to prioritize straight abilities with piercing. Consider an eldritch star abomination like Sirius (fyi I'm not saying that Sirius needs to be changed or is a bad boss). You could make his main hitbox be two magma cubes next to each other and have a tentacle eye ending in a shulker above him.

Even if it's difficult to implement and balance a boss that takes damage from all its segments, there are bosses that already take damage from weakpoints. There's even bosses like Svalgot and Ghalkor which already work well with the "multiple hitboxes" idea (even though they are two separate bosses). I understand that multi-segment enemies are not the easiest to fight as a melee class, though this could be remedied by having a main hitbox that serves its usual purpose. The weakpoints could be beside the boss, pop in and out during certain attacks, or be something difficult to hit normally (like a small mob).

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As far as I can tell, the common "solution" TM tries to making aoe classes viable in boss fights is to spawn a ton of mobs and give the aoe classes something to wake up and do before going back to sleep. While that works for some bosses, most of the time it's either "way too many mobs, game is laggy, no one has fun" or "way too little mobs that make aoe a necessity". The way I see it, multiple hitboxes is a natural solution to the problem without having to resort on some unique class lock or damage type resistance.

The common solution for ranged classes is to make a little minigame section where everyone has to pull out a bow to avoid death or progress the fight. Another one is putting the enemy in a location that is more dangerous to get to is also a decent solution. However, is it not impossible to apply the same multiple hitboxes idea to ranged classes as well? Consider a weakpoint that spawns above a boss that takes extra damage or has less health. It can be constantly hit by a ranged class or a different class could drop some burst up there then return to blitzing the main hitbox.

While it may make the designing of bosses more challenging, it will increase the class variety in bosses. While aoe classes was the main focus here, there's other things it can apply to to. Multiple enchantments and builds may become more viable even to non-aoe classes. Classes with more burst rather than constant dps will become more useful if more weakpoints spawn during a certain phase of the fight. I'm not saying "LETS KILL SINGLE TARGET DPS I HATE SINGLE TARGET DPS". I'm just saying there's a pretty big gap when a class can deal 2-10x your maximum dps that can be lessened without nerfing any particular class. Even if you put two weakpoints next to each other and made them take half damage, a class like Mage would still deal more damage due to how its abilities work

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I know some people will have some obvious replies to this so I'll do my best to answer them ahead of time.
"Ranged classes and aoe classes take less skill / are easier to dodge on" Well that's a design choice. I don't see why that has to make them completely unviable especially when enemy ability creep has gotten so significant in r3 that standing further away from a boss rarely makes you safe anymore and many bosses already have anti-camping measures. Regardless, if a class is too easy, then perhaps the problem is with the class itself or its low skill expression abilities. Many competitive games at much higher skill ceilings still make their lower skill ceiling characters decent or semi-viable in most scenarios.

“Some content is made for some classes to excel in than others”. Alright, let’s turn this around then. Is it way, way slower for dps classes to clear pois? Is it impossible for dps classes to clear max pt delves? I will agree that there is content like RoD and Gallery that do indeed have a heavy bias for certain other classes though.

"Caster is already strong in CZ!" Again that's a design choice and I'm not saying caster or any archetype needs a buff. I'm just suggesting that there may be multiple ways to make a playstyle viable.

"Ranger is already strong in Hexfall!" Well that's a good thing then. Good job TM.

"X would be BROKEN against this" Well then that's an X issue.

"I hate mobs with multiple hitboxes!" / "This goes against TM's design philosophy." Fair enough, nothing I can say to that.

lean perch
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“Some content is made for some classes to excel in than others”. Alright, let’s turn this around then. Is it way, way slower for dps classes to clear pois? Is it impossible for dps classes to clear max pt delves? I will agree that there is content like RoD and Gallery that do indeed have a heavy bias for certain other classes though.
Uhh try clearing with dps rogue or cleric or warrior. tell me the results

marsh vapor
hasty comet
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In other words, I can make my set tankier with less damage on rogue. I can't make my set have more damage to compete as mage

marsh vapor
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This is quite an interesting boss design that wlmp point out tbh, i'd love to see a boss with multiple weak point that u can deal dmg to simultaneously but like they said b4, i dont this fit TM design philosophy (i dont actually know TM philo i just pick this up viewing all the other boss that they make, it'd be nice tho if some dev can confirm this.)

hollow crystal
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Haven't personally played and turn based game where an enemy possessed multiple hitboxes/health bars that could simultaneously be hit by one input/attack selection, could you provide some examples? Multiple health bars I have seen, but not one that allows for multiple to be damaged with one attack unless they're truly separate enemies but "one boss together".

I could sort of see some monumenta enemies (namely the blaze stack in Exalted Yellow, or the Shulker stack in Exalted Willows)

If a hypothetical boss is given multiple segments, there is a small concern over the specialist classification (magma cubes looks "nice" as cubic targets but imply slayer, which may not match with the boss' type), and if they aren't given resistance, seem a little awkward as damage would be directly multiplied by 2x or 3x which is not a fine lever to use for balancing (but again, easily solved with some level of resistance for AOE intended weak points). I can see this idea being a better solution than mob spam to cater to the AOE classes, and I think it should be considered in the future.

lean perch
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Also arent boss passive mobs spawn catering to magic?

hasty comet
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That was mentioned in the post...

lean perch
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woops

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but mobs don't cause lag??

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i'd say you can't ignore hexfall mobs too

dire hemlock
# hollow crystal Haven't personally played and turn based game where an enemy possessed multiple ...

Not op but: In darkest dungeon, there's a boss called the flesh https://darkestdungeon.fandom.com/wiki/Flesh#Head_
Basically it's made up of 4 body parts that morph into different forms each turn, but they all share 1 lifebar
This makes your party's aoe abilities much more valuable, whereas for the rest of the bosses they're usually outclassed by single target ones
I would really like to see something similar to op's suggestion in future - classes should definitely have strengths and weaknesses, but the difference in dps and thus contribution between e.g. mage and guardian in a boss like ru'ten is just too great

zenith harness
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We do have worm enemies and miniboss in ex bw, something like that on larger scale would be incredibly cool to fight tbh

hollow flint
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yes i agree make aoe viable in bosses

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looking at you drask

chrome nimbus
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if you break both of his legs he falls over and the DPS classes can attack his head directly

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  • large monstrosity
  • found in an icy climate
  • has a ton of HP and can be fought with friends
  • breaking legs allows you to hit their face
    Welcome back fire giant elden ring
placid aurora
daring gate
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Octopath traveller 2 spoilers

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Well, maybe it goes under the spawning adds umbrella as ||the boss spawns 2-4 hands which needs to be killed in order to unlock the boss' weaknesses, otherwise you cannot break the boss||

swift depot
lean perch
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what?

swift depot
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you can just Volley (u) and kill all the mobs

lean perch
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that's not really ignoring

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you used an ability on them

swift depot
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you would be volleying off cd for the extra damage anyways