3 Months later and the least hours in any spec. What needs to be done with Reaper?

[subtle nest]

It's been 3 months since the last feedback post on reaper, and from the recent reveal of time played per class, and per spec in the month of August, Reaper is suffering as the lowest time played spec in the game. I believe the mini rework it got was widely successful in sprucing up some of the old design and making the spec more interesting, yet this hasn't seemed to bear fruit with the playerbase, so what's happening here?

Previous feedback: #1251593201630974043 message
Hours played per class/spec: #monumenta-general message

In this post I'd like to collect some of my thoughts regarding the spec that I went over in general earlier today, expand on them and open discussion for further feedback for the spec.

I believe that reaper is struggling in 3 different ways:
1.) The abilities of the class it comes from
2.) The numbers within the spec itself
3.) Scythe design not being favourable in R3

## 1.) Warlock's FocusThe base class of warlock has numerous skills that focus on debuffing enemies, culminating in a magic damage burst aoe in the form of Amplifying Hex. Choleric, Lament, Grasping, and level 1s of Sanguine and C.Wound all focus on applying debuffs with minimal chip damage, with Grasping being the core grouping tool used to apply hex with. From there, Soul Rend and Sanguine level 2 focuses on healing, Phlegmatic provides resistance, and C.Wound level 2 along with a few of the debuff abilities' level 2 provide small additional benefits on a scythe attack once per cycle.

These abilities provide a clear gameplay loop for warlock:
-Group targets together
-Apply as many debuffs as possible
-Nuke them to the grave

And if you're struggling for survivability, put points into either of the healing or resistance skills. Every skill funnels into this pattern, with the base class really only requiring melee hits to apply more debuffs, or finishing up any leftovers. This is somewhat similar to mage's gameplay and sets warlock along the path of becoming a caster with a unique twist on things.

## 1a.) Tenebrist's UtopiaThis leads perfectly into Tenebrist's role by furthering this gameplay loop with more debuffs, more healing, more damage, and transferral of those debuffs to the next fight. This spec takes everything Warlock is trying to do and improves on it in every way making it more effective and helping it scale into the next regions.

## 1b.) Reaper's DespairOn the other side of things, Reaper attempts to take all of the secondary parts of Warlock and improve them.

-The displacement of Grasping is mirrored and better with Judgement Chain
-The defense and aoe scythe attacks from Phlegmatic and level 2s are enhanced into a team setting with Voodoo Bonds
-The pure scythe damage of C.Wound level 2 is boosted into Dark Pact's trade, with Soul Rend creating a risk/reward playstyle.

## 2.) Reaper's DefeatThe obvious issue with this structure, is that the base class does not provide many avenues into this approach, so the spec needs to make up for that by providing lots of value because otherwise you'd be playing hybrid of two playstyles where the core of the class is a distraction rather than support.

However, compared to Tenebrist gaining a sizable damage increase with skills providing 10% vulnerability/10% damage, 10/15 single target, and a 12/16 damage AoE DoT, ignoring all of those also aiding Amp Hex, Reaper gets swindled with 10/20% against chained mobs, 3 initial + 15/20% of an attacks hit in an AoE, with 9 damage on repeat casts, and a deceptive 35/55% melee boost.

Not only is the damage roughly the same, but all of Reaper's buffs have much more conditional applications. Shades and Gaze are large AoEs that are difficult to miss, with vex souls scaling with encounter size, whereas Chain is 1-3 targets, Voodoo is a much smaller AoE than gaze, albeit it spreads, and Pact is entirely buffing the player's melee attacks which is single target and comes with a hefty anti heal penalty.

With minimal help from the base class, and lacking enough benefits from the spec itself, Reaper ends up falling into a dilemma:

-Cope with a stunted, but functionally cool melee class
-Cope with playing worse Tenebrist hybrid

I think Reaper's abilities themselves are all functionally cool, but deserve a respectable damage increase across the board, especially after the additive rework, to bring it up to par and become desirable to play with, because I believe Warlock's skills are the core of the issue with not bringing anything valuable to the table when looking for a displacement brawler spec, but asking for a rework this soon, when the base class and tenebrist function so well together is depreciating the work that has gone into this class.

## 3.) Scythe's FlawsAnother balance concern bringing reaper down in region 3 is the design of scythes. Reaper has no added attack speed, and is focused on dealing damage with melee attacks in close range. In total there are 10 rare scythes to pick from. Out of these:

-4 have an attack speed of 1 or below, these are borderline unusable to melee with without building your entire kit around attack speed. Of these 4, 3 of them are the specialist scythes, with the smite option trading 1/3 of its damage for mending and magic protection and the other two are similarly depressing. The last is a pretty solid option from zenith, surviving the mending tax.
-2 have an attack speed between 1.2-1.3, these are more usuable, but still require attack speed gear to be useful, and one of them is much more appealing on Tenebrist with bleeding and inferno, and the other is a pass artifact which for the purposes of common builds is unattainable.
-2 have usable attacks speeds between 1.5-1.6, although both make trade offs to defense/utility making them less appealing.
-2 have an attack speed of 2, with one clearly being useful for tenebrist with hex eater and +15% magic damage, and the other also trading some of it's potential for defense/decay.

Out of these options the majority of them have attack speeds of an axe, which unlike Warrior with 40% attack speed very frequently, Reaper (or Tenebrist for that matter) has nothing in it's class to aid in making these feel workable without building primarily into attack speed, potentially forgoing damage or defense, or coping with attacking every 2 seconds. If you instead try to use the 2 attack speed scythe, you either massively lack damage, or end up listening to decay proccing every single fight, so you're left with 2 options, both of which have the stat budget of a sword, but without the class skills to come with it.

## 4.) Reaper's FutureTo conclude, Warlock is class all about applying debuffs to set up for a big AoE burst of damage, and Reaper tries to alter that gameplay into a blend of melee and caster, without the melee power, and without the caster scaling that Tenebrist has access to, and as such the spec is left with nothing really going for it when you could play another melee class for vastly superior clearing power or Tenebrist to live out your hexing power fantasy.

I believe what Reaper needs that is feasible to achieve, is some noticeable melee damage increases across the spec to allow the change in playstyle to better flourish, and rebalancing several of R3's scythes to higher attack speeds to allow for more diversity to allow the spec to better stand out from other melee classes and from being overshadowed by Tenebrist.

Sadly as I alluded to earlier, I think the core issue is how hostile the base Warlock kit is to separating into 2 unique takes on the class, and a deeper solution would require reworks or skill replacements to add higher melee functionality to the base class more than minor additions to level 2 skills in the same way a class like scout has multiple playstyle options.

I think Reaper as a spec is tremendously designed and implemented, I personally adore displacement themed melee classes, I really think Judgement Chain is one of the coolest skills to exist in the game, but unfortunately the environment and conditions around the spec make it unlikely to provide enough value to be worthwhile in its current state, as evidenced by how little it gets played.

Thank you for reading ❤️

[plain tinsel]

Unrelated but I have been playing rivals of aether again and I do like how their designs are very synergistic and based around a central mechanic

[gilded narwhal]

I just gotta agree with this

[fading thicket]

Pls buff threadreaper, it looks so cool but the item cant compete with vermin waltz

I wanna propose a suggestion to make scythe exclusive to warlock like how wand is exclusive to mage, this way tm can mess around with scythe without overbuffing it for other class that doesnt have a weapon req

I also feel like r2 reaper suffer a lot of scythe problem that tkt point out too

[spiral brook]

am I the only one that dislikes Phlegmatic resolve? its a decent abitily, granting 15% resistance for free. But to use it on reaper you are encouraged to take magic attacks and then cast them just for the resistance; which means your using multiple abitily points just for some damage reduction. It feels pretty underwhelming, but theres nothing better to take then it

I feel like if that skill was replaced with something that benefited melee in some way it would help reaper later on.

idk maybe give warlock the abitily to throw its scythe; that would give reaper some range

Phlegmatic resolve is probably pretty good on tenebrist, I don't know I have not played it much. But like would tene really be that badly hurt if it lost its free dr?

[gilded narwhal]

what

[dim mirage]

I honestly don’t see much of a problem with the r3 scythes’ designs. With both the both overabundance of high atks items in r3 and the lack of reaper skills scaling with attack damage (which I suppose is a problem by itself), you’re free to just build attack speed without sacrificing ability damage.

[spiral brook]

like you throw a copy of your held scythe, effectively acting as a basic attack but at long range. Reaper currently only has judgement chain to "reach" enemies.

I'm just spitballing ideas

when it comes to reworking base skills, resolve is the only one I think that can be touched. All of warlocks skills are useful atm and thats just the one thats the least interesting (dr for doing nothing yippee)

cuz like if you dont make warlocks base skills better for melee; then how do you help reaper without just over buffing its specialization skills?

[simple turret]

if reaper is underperforming, just give it a spec passive!

[fading thicket]

I dont think phleg is that bad, u still need to use alot of spell to proc cwound either way

[fading thicket]

Also thats silly, reaper is a melee class why throwing in a range skill

[spiral brook]

using spells that do 3 damage for the sake of activating passives feels bad to play.

[simple turret]

minor idea: what if dpact also gave some attack speed

[fading thicket]

That'd be so awesome, that'd be so cool

[spiral brook]

well your throwing your melee weapon, so its still a melee class!

what else are you gonna do, reduce judgement chains cooldown to 5 seconds per charge? (wait acutally do it that sounds sick)

[spark solstice]

If u look closely resolve have skill cap

[simple turret]

https://tenor.com/view/ego-meursault-limbus-limbus-company-gif-13129929207660926900

[spiral brook]

yes thats why I said 15% dr because I read the abitliy

[fading thicket]

Hell ye that'd be nice

[fading thicket]

Cwound proc a substancial dmg, 30% more dmg is not small

[spark solstice]

Given how many skill u need for reach cap, u don't really need choose those skill u don't want

[fading thicket]

If lvl 2 that is

[spiral brook]

but normally you only have 1 or 2 spells on cooldown as a reaper if your not using magic attacks to fuel your passives.

[simple turret]

Reaper is a pseudo tank already
Why not give it a steadfast-scaling damage boost while in dpact to incentivize playing risky

[spark solstice]

No, not really

[spiral brook]

you sure can use your magic attacks for the sake of passive activation, but it feels bad to use spells that do nothing

[simple turret]

Or attack speed lol

[spark solstice]

Doesn't really related to topic but I have interested on what skill u pick and how do u play

[gilded narwhal]

also, are you just ignoring that reaper alos has skills

[fading thicket]

Soul rend is a must, dpact is a must, now use one more flavor then it'll be enough

Oops wrong reply mb dumpling

[spiral brook]

skills that are situationally used, I'm not using dark pact to kill lone mobs

[gilded narwhal]

no, but jchain exists, voodoo bonds has multiple charges

soul rend is basically perma on cooldown

[spiral brook]

I said 1 or 2. From what I have played voodoo bonds and soul rend are the spells you always have on cd. Then your ether using a spam magic abitily to get to 3 or using another reaper spell

the part I dislike is having to take spam magic abilities because I don't have a better choice to take

like they offer debuffs but only debuffs (vs tenebrist gets debuff + damage); which makes using them feel underwhelming

it reminds me of mscout; it hast 7 skill points that are locked in and then it just takes filler

[spark solstice]

Cool

[spiral brook]

also reaper has to work to get phlg but warrior just has a better EHP passive for free at all times 🤷‍♂️

not saying that phlg should also be free, since thats just lame

[fading thicket]

I guess i can see why u feel like its a waste of point, but usually im fine with it because warlock at its core is a magic melee hybrid, thats the class whole identity, reaper spec just play into the melee part more so i think if they wanna buff reaper they should change the class skill spec rather than the warlock skill

[fading thicket]

Ofc warrior have free ehp, its warrior the identity is different than warlock

[gilded narwhal]

pinged. whom.

[spiral brook]

ya this is just me saying it feels bad to play; rather then the skill is weak

[simple turret]

it turns out that people actually don't want to play average melee-locked classes with no movement

[spiral brook]

fr give reaper wings and the abitliy to fly

[fading thicket]

Actual good opinion pls give reaper tjunderstorm

[simple turret]

Give reaper stacking speed when killing while under dpact

[spiral brook]

cursed wounds could give attack speed maybe?

[spark solstice]

would like to give feedback based on my experience with r3 melee reaper

for skill itself, i quite like before different spec skill has collabe effect, i believe add it back with some tweak would give more reason to use different spec skill set.

The reason i bring on this is because i mainly use 211(dpact 2), reason here is as a melee reaper, i tend to kill mob as quick as possible, which need dpact 2 to achive, jchain and voodoo do offer funny, unique support way, but as melee focus spec, get lvl 2 doesn't really work

For voodoo bond, and it's epic charm Chaos Codex, u obuvislly want hit teammate with it, but

1. voodoo bond is straight line with small width, in r3 where melee class has movement skill, high speed, magic and proj class has even more movement, reaper as class doesn't have speed and movement suffer hit player with voodoo.

2. aoe part is good, but that's more kbr issue, with how many thing can hit u in r3, sometime its really hard to crit mob to spread curse and deal aoe damage

3. although repeat add voodoo would deal extra damage, even has charm boost it, but that part at most is favor, 9 damage (somehow doesn't really scale with my melee % on gear) doesn't really work as it require repeat hit and 12sec cooldown

For Jchain

1. Lvl 1's pull mob and taunt is really good in fight in my experience, debuff really work well to prevent pull mob over won't make reaper itself in danger. But Lvl 2 pull extra mob, since it only check nearby mob, it can pull creeper right over and fuck u up because we all know blast prot in r3 is such a joke

2. i still quite like old jchain(but it feel fit "voodoo" more though), it offer very unique way to deal group mob

3. although portal charm reduce jchain cd, but i belive what make jchain good is debuff, without debuff it really fuck player up, especially those have asian ping

[simple turret]

Oh yeah
This charm

Chaos codex is weird
It turns reaper into a pseudo support but disables your only real AOE damage

which, at that point... Just play a support class? Or even warrior?
Dline, crain, hallowed beam, will probably help an equal amount and then you can still do good damage in clear

[spiral brook]

ya Voodoo Bonds having support tacted on feels weird. Its fine as an offensive ability but awkward to use to help your team (since you give up your aoe and health)

[gilded narwhal]

reaper def suffers from movement, where almost every class has access to speed, movement abils, or even just speed on armor

[spark solstice]

reaper focus on melee and support, rn i play 211 like i said above, jchain in fact feel more "support" to me as it have longer range, allow me pull dangerous mob out of my teamate, while voodoo bond offer "prevent hit", is really hard to hit player with it most of time

can voodoo bond stack support good? in my friend's experience answer is yes, as long as voodoo HIT player

and the problem, is it can't really hit player

[simple turret]

Voodoo bonds should fire a separate autoaim projectile at the player closest to your center of vision with a longer range, but it doesn't deal damage or apply curse

finally, voodoo bonds modes: default/healing/damage
Swap them with shift q

[spark solstice]

so, that's why i bring up different skill's collabe effect appear before, because rn only 211 feel work in both single and group play for me

[simple turret]

Oops, all hallowed beam

[valid maple]

you want a central warlock mechanic? turn amplifying hex into a status effect instead of an active, and have the abilities play around it or something
say, like it detonates after its timer runs out or once a certain number of debuffs are on a mob, and the detonation deals as much damage as debuffs. Then the warlock skills can play around inflicting amplifying hex in ~3 ways and forcibly detonating in ~3 ways
Ive never played warlock before but I think I am right and TM praise me

[spark solstice]

u know my friend even tried magic reaper(it work), because main magic trick is in warlock itself not spec

Let me quote my friend: Reaper's diversity is completely gone now.

[fading thicket]

I believe tm view for reaper is a more selfish guardian/paladin with the weird support capability of vbond, which is why i dont think they gonna any mobility to the class

[spark solstice]

i am fine with it doesn't have movement skill honestly

[fading thicket]

Same

But i think they should scrap the support thing i dont really see the point, they want reaper to be use as.support but also a high risk high reward spec?

[spark solstice]

https://ohthemisery-psi.vercel.app/builder/m=Vermin's Waltz-4&o=Crimson Tithe-4&h=Uriddan's Legacy-4&c=Broodhide Tunic-4&l=Vilepriest Garments-4&b=Flight from the Capital-4&charm=Tom-n_Vows-5-W,Ket-r_Core-1-G,Sci-_Stars-3-W,Les-ntract-1-W,Gre-ntract-2-W
that's what i end up get for reference, dpact damage charm swap to cwound charm to boost damage when not active dpact

[spiral brook]

if the support is dropped; you could then justify buffing voodo bond's damage!

[simple turret]

Voodoo bonds now inflicts a certain percentage of the damage you take onto cursed enemies

[fading thicket]

Stop trying to thorn reaper dumpling

[simple turret]

alsodpactnowgivesthornsdamage%andheals20%ofyourhealthonretributionkill

[gilded narwhal]

stop that

[spark solstice]

i think rn all 3 skill work, but can perform better, like dpact can have atks build in, i guess more damage. Voodoo bond make hit player more eaiser, maybe X block radius around player, and make repeat hit damage scale with player melee damage if that gonna stay. Jchain's Lvl 1 really work well for me, i would pefer lvl 2 give charge rather then extra mob pull to make it more controlable, or give player resist to mob, because weaken only work with melee/proj damage

[simple turret]

what if jchain stunned enemies instead of slowing them so you dont get CREEPER TO FACE

[spark solstice]

would also work

i also would like to mention this, it do offer good survialability as long as u can kill mob, but this + usually see cwound/dpact charm, make charm thing on warlock really boring

[gilded narwhal]

(also 5 stars)

[spark solstice]

surely i can use other charm, so that's why i now have sirius's warlock passive charm, but many of warlock just doesn't fit melee aspect, too expensive, or not fit my play style(this is more on me, like i believe portal charm is good)

like this one, it really give me a why after voodoo bond change to what it is now

the ping damage doesn't really work, so i only see rest 3 stat, which is not really worth to me as 3 star

[simple turret]

I assume that's a sidegrade for shorter encounters

[spark solstice]

i suppose, but in my experience doesn't really need

[simple turret]

so supposedly for clearing better

but that's the only time you need vbonds lol

vbonds cooldown/cycle is already quite good

[spark solstice]

also can't find usage for this

[simple turret]

Support tene

[spark solstice]

but that's more a stay with teammate problem,not really realted to reaper here

[simple turret]

Finally, I can have passive cleansing rain and a worse hand of light

[fading thicket]

So real amd true

[lapis spindle]

ah thank you for making the thread for me

[broken cobalt]

[subtle nest]

This is definitely the big part for me that I was getting at in my post. Reaper feels like it would do better as it’s own class because it currently kinda just feels tacked onto the obvious warlock -> tenebrist pipeline.

If I make my reaper setup I look at warlock skills, pick up grasping, soul rend, cwound and then realise I have barely anything actually helping me unless I take amp hex to juice up the damage, and then I’m just playing worse tenebrist. Warlock skills don’t really synergise with reaper at all because they are trying to do different things

The trouble is if you were to take away power from amp hex and distribute it and change it more on the base skills not only would that be extremely unsatisfying and make the class less unique, but that might end in the exact same spot with a bunch of magic skills that don’t work with reaper and feels counter to its goals

[spark solstice]

talking about skill choose, lament for taune + weaken, allow taking aggro(support!) and more damage + survialability, harvest 1 for bleed which is kind of more survialability, heal and a skill that can often in cd

claw 2 does give some aoe, but everytime i test it just doesn't work/unnoticeable, so i drop it, end up get harvest

[lapis spindle]

no grasping is crazy

[spark solstice]

i have grasping 1

[lapis spindle]

ah

[spark solstice]

(i do honest think about drop it and test it but put it on other doesn't make thing better)

[subtle nest]

Changing amp hex to a passive timed explosion on mobs after they reach a certain debuff threshold could be an interesting idea to tweak the power it has over reaper

I also thought of a change to dark pact last night that idk if it would help or not:

Dark Pact:
Passively deal 10% more damage to mobs per debuff they have (max 50%). Additionally after amplifying hex is cast, you channel a dark pact, stripping all debuffs from affected enemies, giving 50% extra melee damage and gaining 20% speed and attack speed for 8 seconds. You heal at 25% effectiveness during this time

Level 2:
Passive damage increased to 15%, cap increased to 90%, pact damage increase to 75%, healing effectiveness penalty reduced to 50%, and soul rend ignores this penalty.

This would go kinda hard with a less effective amp hex I think

[scenic bear]

so wait

you debuff for bis damage, strip debuff get bis damage buff and re-debuff for even more damage

[subtle nest]

This would go kinda hard with a less effective amp hex I think

[near furnace]

Even when reaper was strong I didn't enjoy playing it . It felt extremely slow but sturdy. The pacing was terrible despite being close to invincible.

[scenic bear]

i stopped playing reaper after they removed the ability to ignore instances of damage with the one skill

forgot the name

was like the only reason i played reaper over bers/paladin

[near furnace]

It also felt annoying to use the abilities just for a small debuff . Why not just use mage and kill the mobs without the extra crits afterwards.

[scenic bear]

that and the asorption on kill was admittedly silly

[lapis spindle]

i think we should give Withering Gaze to reaper tbh

after sprucing the skill up of course

[scenic bear]

lets give reaper reckless swing and see what happens (trust me)

[lapis spindle]

[near furnace]

Withering gaze is not a skill thought for r3 . I think it should straight up be reworked . It is quite old and doesn't serve much of a function apart from an extra debuff for amp

[scenic bear]

but yeah i think some form of other melee buffs for reaper would be quite nice

reaper had a rough time hitting for more than 120 (when vermin didnt exist) while keeping good tankiness before the mult --> add change

now its kinda just

hitting things with a pool noodle

[lapis spindle]

reaper did plenty of damage pre additive

[subtle nest]

Which is fine for Tenebrist tbh

[scenic bear]

i fixed my comment

back when vermin wasnt a thing

[lapis spindle]

lol

[scenic bear]

that was my experience with the class anyways

its obviously different now

[near furnace]

I am not a huge fan of current tenebrist either . It just gets outclassed by the other magic classes

The spam everything and wait 10 seconds playstyle of tenebrist is both uninteresting and slower than alch/mage

[scenic bear]

imma be completely honest i like this more than vermin

idk bout yall

feels like its the only not bad not slow melee scythe lol

[lapis spindle]

i think we should replace vodooo bonds with a single giant scythe slash A la Moonblade

nice and visually pleasing too

[scenic bear]

also is grace 4 enough on its own to get that to 1.6

havent tried

[lapis spindle]

base damage of the swing increases by 1 for each debuff applied on an enemy and deals pure melee damage

if inside Dark Pact, this slash will immediately consume 2 hearts and heal you for 0.5 health per debuff on an enemy, up to 5 health. any extra debuffs will instead apply absorption

[scenic bear]

am i slow or where is the damage scaling

[sand smelt]

Hi obligatory yui yap jumpscare
I think theres also the issue that reaper just does poorly at it's job.
Theres a reason why I played "melee tenebrist" for a while, tenebrists kit is so absurdly powerful that just going towards attack and getting one random 15% magic piece is enough to make you absurd in all fronts
Reaper however relies more on it's silly gimmick skills
"Chain up mobs"
"Damage buff but you die too easily"
"Aoe but only at midnight every year for 4s"
They all need reworks and buffs,
Base kit of Warlock is fine, theres good skills and utilities you get for reaper playstyle, Melancholy 2 for cleanse, Rend for nice heals, and free 15% dmg and dmg reduction

And thats where Reaper skills come into place:
Right off the bat, Dark Pact is terrible.
You get 50% dmg bonus, but you can't heal.....then the devs instantly remembered that the spec had lots of heals and had to make the downside non existant because too many sourced of BS damage exist in this game to make this work for a melee class.

Next up, Chain, absolutely great fucking skill but is slightly annoying to use, especially since 90% of players just kill Reapers chained mobs.

And finally, Voodoo Bonds, a shell of it's former self, now being just an poor aoe skill working once every blood moon during chinese new year but only between 1st and 2nd AM

add to that what TKTOM said earlier about scythes, they just suck. I wouldn't be suprised if devs handicap them because of that 50% free damage bonus from Dark Pact. They just need more love, like, A LOT more love, especially in r3

Now, since just like cleric, I absolutely love melee based supports/healers that can also kick ass
I do want to see if I can help somehow, thus, heres my few ideas:

Dark Pact
I hate that skill and I think it's just poorly executed on top of screwing up Scythes, Just make it a toggle with 50% healing penalty like Taboo or, a funkier one:
Lv1: Press [Keybind] to curse your next strike for 10s. Hitting enemy while in that state will Curse the enemy dealing 5 Melee Damage, and leave 3 Cursed Daggers that will home on to nearby enemies (Spreading Curse further and dealing 5 damage as well). While the enemy is Cursed, it gets 30% Vulnerability and 20% Slowness (20% Vuln and 10% Slow for Elites, doesn't work on bosses) Additionaly, killing Cursed enemy gives warlock 20% Absorption for 3s (not stacking) and 30% Melee Damage bonus for 8s. Cooldown: 15s
Lv2: Absorption increased to 30% for 4s. Melee Damage increased to 40%. Skill now has 2 Charges.

Judgment Chain
Lv1: Press [keybind] while looking at non-elite mob within 8 blocks to Chain it up. The mob will begin to glow Black, and be immune to all damage sources outside of Reaper. Warlock gains 10% Resistance when a mob is chained, the Mob gets -40% speed (-20% for Elites) for the duration of Chain, and gets teleported 2 blocks in front of Warlock, and Warlock deals 20% bonus melee damage to that mob. If Mob is hit while there are mobs nearby, it does not take damage and instead spreads damage with -65% Penalty to all mobs around it in 3 block radius. Press [keybind] while mob is still chained to whip the chain, dealing X Melee damage to mob chained, breaking it and dealing additional Y damage to mobs around the Chain and Warlock. Duration and Cooldown: 15s

Lv2: Damage Penalty reduced to 50%, Radius increased to 4 blocks. Additionally, any non-boss not-chained mob that gets caught in the chain will be ensnared, stuning it for 1s (0.5s for elites) and applying 20% Vulnarability for 7s.
Skill now has 2 charges.

Voodoo Bonds
Lv1: Passively you deal 5% Melee Damage more per debuff on enemy (up to 25%)
Press [Keybind] While looking at nearby Player to teether with them for up to 8s. Any damage that isn't Ailment or True Damage taken by that player will get split 50/50 between you and them, gain 10% Resistance and 20% Speed when in teether. Press [keybind] to end teether early. Cooldown: 14s
Lv2: Damage per debuff increased to 7%, up to 35%, Resistance increased to 15%, Cooldown: 10s
Additionally: Teether Player gains 10% Resistance and 20% Damage Bonus for the duration of Teether.

Do note, those are just ideas, maybe blatantly overpowered, maybe just straight garbage, I wanted to keep the idea of Reaper having some utilities and support capability, das all.

[scenic bear]

i love resonant scythe

too bad its worse than most swords

[scenic bear]

like genuinely, it has good stats technically

its just that ugg

uhhh

15 damage is lower than 85% of swords

💀

[sand smelt]

as I said the yapfest I belive that's because of the free 50% melee damage TM assumes "all reapers" take and thus they need to get nerfed in dmg

[lapis spindle]

-base dmg
-pure melee dmg which means it scales with dmg%

[scenic bear]

yeah i saw that and i hard agree

50% also isnt a meaningful amount anymore

[scenic bear]

makes sense, i am just slow

[unreal lintel]

For those who have tried it, how does the voodoo rework feel mechanically? Is the pin Cooldown/charges accessible enough aoe or do you find yourself running out of uses? Is casting it engaging, aiming for lines of mobs/deciding whether or not to use it or reserve it? And any R2 vs R3 experiences?

[bold garnet]

The intent of this skill would not be a "ranged" skill, but an initiation skill. Think something like illuminate on cleric

[scenic bear]

i stopped playing reaper when they reworked it

i always just used it for the free no damage hit

(i think it was that skill)

its been a little while

[sand smelt]

without you backing up for 5 seconds to line up mobs, (especially on clock with Dark Pact) I found myself to just use the Voodoo whenever I can for the "free" damage buff, thus often just did not had the aoe when needed, not like it provides a lot of that aoe anyway

[bold garnet]

I read about a warlock-like class in a work of fiction once, similarly focused on debuffs but applying these debuff through talismans, which can be either thrown along with the scythe (the scythe comes back) or be applied to your hits

One of my favourite mechanics of warlock right now is the lament level 2, which works similarly, enhancing your hit

I think something like a (skill passive ideally, but lets be honest that's not gonna happen so just a reworked skill like dpact or something) a skill infusing your next 3 hits depending on a skill used would be cool

[sand smelt]

oh ye I forgot to mention claws in my yap fest

[bold garnet]

Would add some depth outside of "vomit all skills then crit"

[sand smelt]

I like them because they let you become sukuna for one hit to yell CLEAVE irl and then forget about that skill until it's up again

[bold garnet]

That said, these 3 infused hits would have to have some really good functionality to warrant not vomiting skills every crit

[sand smelt]

(seriously though, it's great help but fuuny low dmg in r3)

[sand smelt]

my Dark Pact idea went somewhat similiar

[bold garnet]

Link

[sand smelt]

.

[scenic bear]

i want to be able to hit mobs with more than a wet pool noodle please 😭

[bold garnet]

Also I agree somewhat with moving around stat budget with scythes and the warlock passives

Taking scythes warlock exclusive is a good first step

[sand smelt]

but instead only one hit is Cursed, however hitting the enemy Curses them, and then drops the 3 cursed daggers that will also go 3 new enemies to curse them, making it 4.

[bold garnet]

Then the free Dr and free melee damage can be moved around to be useful not exclusively to a caster playstyle

I like your dpact idea

Pretty creative

Cant say if it'd be good in the game though

Also the judgement chain idea similar to the old one I love

I'm surprised at how much I like the full reaper rework you made

Especially the hex eater-esque passive, that'd be what reaper needs

Also maybe interesting idea is making reaper the blood acolyte from wynncraft - Dpact now drains %hp like taboo, but you gain more healing effectiveness and heal on crit (independent of life drain)

[unreal lintel]

Should state the damage of the daggers or state that they curse mobs, unsure if you should state that they will try to target different mobs (I'm assuming that is the intent)

[unreal lintel]

Might be nice if tether automatically breaks if it would kill you, could argue for a player skill component but current voodoo just leaves you on death's door

[sand smelt]

there

Current and old voodoo was basically "abuse on others and never die to it"

in my idea, the skill is centered about Benefactory "teether" between you and some other player.
You both gain nice bonuses, however the skill now needs you to actually be careful
However yeah, it breaking if the damage taken would kill the caster is fine
so just:
If damage taken would kill caster, instead the damage still gets split, you are put to lowest hp possible and the teether breaks.

Still, as much as I may dream those are just ideas, quite flawed ones too, TM won't look at them so I was free to run rampart and think what I want on reaper the most
Which is:
More Aoe
More Damage not tied to the fucking Dark Pact
Better Support

[sand smelt]

(yes to all)

[lapis spindle]

lets turn dpact into taboo with taboo burst

literally

copy the skill 1:1

while dpact is in burst mode it drains your hp, nerfs the healing from soul rend but it has no cooldown

[sand smelt]

so....the old taboo.

It used to be the same except constantly draining hp (not killing) and having the heal penalty

[lapis spindle]

pretty much, but you have to play the game to sustain the burst for long periods of time

[unreal lintel]

I have strong doubts on how effective your proposed reaper would be in practice specifically regarding AOE and distance closing. Judgment chain now being an AOE conversion tool instead of single target redirect helps (probably), but restricting your AOE to a 15s Cooldown may be tough to deal with. I can already envision an R3 ability laden mob or delve mod causing the chained mob to break away and killing your AOE for a long time and leaving you dead in the water. The level 2 definitely has too much value relative to level 1 (3 to 5 radius is huge, more damage transfer, incredibly generous ensnarement stun).

Reaper not getting any speed from your Voodoo bonds level 2 might be thematic aligned, but many classes just move much faster than before and with judgment chain being changed from the telepull, distance closing seems like a lot of work

Would rather not see a double trigger on a skill like taboo, feels..m sloppy to me conceptually

[sand smelt]

what if the lvl 2 changed the radius to a second charge? could help resolve your issues

and ensnarment is defo too good I agree, 1s or 0.5s would be fine already

[unreal lintel]

Second charge could work, moving some of the radius to level 1 (4->5) could also work, with the broadened offerings from these skills compared to "you just aren't killing things without this 55% damage" of current dpact, I'd like to see the spec variety kept a little looser

One thing that's current stewing in my head is to make a form of debuff pool to snowball debuff gameplay in a mostly organic way. Cursed Wound enhancement transferring debuffs helps, but perhaps it could do more

[sand smelt]

ok reworded and changed the judgment chain a bit

also my Voodoo Bonds no longer provide speed to the Teethered player ,but the warlock himself

(and chain tps mob, I forgot to write that from the start but that was intended to be just like the old and current chain)

[unreal lintel]

Here's a first draft of this implementation

Plaguebringer (replaces Dark Pact)

Level 1: When you kill an enemy with a debuff with a scythe attack, a debuff pool corresponding to that debuff is left on the ground lasting 8s (Radius 3 blocks). While you stand on that pool, your scythe attacks inflict that debuff on enemies in a 5 block radius, and you are immune to that debuff. Each pool you enter grants a 15% damage bonus for 8s, stacking up to 3 times (applying once per pool). Only one pool for a given debuff can exist at a given time, and if an enemy has multiple debuffs, the most recent one applied is chosen for the pool.

Level 2: Now stacks up to 4 times. Debuffs on enemies within 10 blocks now inflict 1% health loss per second, up to 4 debuffs. [Trigger] to consume all pools you are standing in and emit a debuffing cone (range 8) that applies that debuff to all enemies hit, and refreshes the duration of the damage gained from being in that pool.

[sand smelt]

cool but one problem, main debuff that reaper has is pretty much bleed.

depends on playstyle though, this could defo push people to play hybrid with some skills a bit more

[unreal lintel]

The design goal for this skill is to cast out a debuff (or use a debuffing scythe to begin), pick up a kill, and build up pool damage stacks. Debuffing is "slow" because you can only get them reliably from your skills which each have their own cooldowns to worry about and utility you may not want to waste (lament taunt, grasping pull). By recasting the pools (or just fighting in one for an extended engagement with respawning mobs like specters, dreads, even colossals) you can get more mileage out of your debuff spells, but Amp hex isn't made significantly better to step on the toes of tenebrist.

The damage of dark pact is mostly retained, but built across debuff management, bringing back the debuff theme while hopefully accelerating the pace for R3. The level 2 doing max health damage is both a way to chip and a way to get some quick soft aggro pull in without burning your skill cooldowns, by consuming a pool.

[simple turret]

great, except you need to secure kills nearby recently for this to do anything

[sand smelt]

now that you said it

it kinda makes reaper even slow than it already is...

[unreal lintel]

Amp hex isn't going to be powerful in a melee set but should still be some decent damage that could set you up for the first kill(s). Judgment chain also repositions mobs which can help setup for pool positioning.

The pool positioning gameplay may be too idealistic for R3 but I'm trying to keep debuffs as a gameplay element

[simple turret]

also it might run into the same problem as transmutation ring where either mobs are outside the ring or the rings are constantly behind you as you clear
But jchain will help with that yeah

[unreal lintel]

For the pool damage/durations, I went with conservative numbers since I think it would be enough with R2, but charms may help if needed for R3

[scenic bear]

boring semi-solution

[simple turret]

In an optimal situation with a constant stream of mobs this would be pretty good ig

[scenic bear]

give reaper frenzy :3

[unreal lintel]

The level 2 mostly solves this by "throwing" the rings forward, and you still get the damage by entering the pool once

But there could be pacing problems if the next spawner isn't triggered yet- I would consider a sort of sticky bomb or projectile to run with if this idea doesn't play out well in practice

Absorbing the pools for your next melee feels a little too close to cursed wound u (which could change, if needed), and I wanted to have ways to debuff that weren't limited to melee range so pacing could be kept up

I had another idea that's just not baked enough yet, where judgment chain becomes essentially a work between you and the mob, and shoots out debuffs in thin projectiles like Borderlands 2 Conference Call, but that's likely a lot of text and I'm not sure if it would be a good idea

I really just like worms lmao

[unreal lintel]

Perhaps this could save on words and help effectiveness-

Plaguebringer (Replaces Dark Pact)

Level 1: When you kill a debuffed enemy with a scythe attack, a Plague Pool corresponding to that debuff is left on the ground lasting 8s (Radius 3 blocks). While standing in a Plague Pool, you are immune to its corresponding debuff. Plague Pools grant you 15% melee damage and cause your scythe attacks to emit a 3 block cone that applies that debuff at 20% potency for 6 seconds (Buff lasts 8s). You can benefit from 3 unique Plague Pools at once. Only one Plague Pool can exist for a given debuff at a time. If an enemy has multiple debuffs, the most recently applied one is used for the Pool.

Level 2:: Max Pool buffs increased to 4. Debuffed enemies (except bosses) within 10 blocks lose 1% health per second, up to 4 debuffs. [Trigger] to consume all pools you are standing in and emit a debuffing cone (range 8) that applies the debuffs of all Plague Pools to enemies hit.

Rework makes debuffs easier to spread (wondering if it's too easy and if it's a problem, but this is where your main damage as the spec is now so it should be accessible), and frees you up from having to be in the Pool to apply the debuffs to loosen positioning and relieve line of sight issues when moving from one combat area to the next and throwing pools/waiting for spawners.

The skill is still slower than "press for 55% damage", but there's no heal nullification.

With cleaving debuffs, a big concern is whether you can keep refreshing given debuffs, or if it'll keep selecting the same one on your melees. This probably adds inconsistency, but I think you should also still be using your actives so maybe it's ok to run out since you can reapply them.

As for charm potential:
Plague Pool duration
Plague Pool potency
Plague Pool radius
Plague Pool damage buff
Plague Pool buff duration
Plague Pool buff count
Plague Pool debuff cone radius
Plague Pool health loss (should be used very sparingly)
Plague Pool cone recast radius
Plague Pool cone recast angle

Plenty of options there

For base skill synergy:
Amp Hex could be some reliable chip with the debuff spread
Cursed wound/phleg may be slightly more awkward when skill cooldowns are rationed, but voodoo bonds having charges and soul rend being used so frequently makes me confident you'll get the buffs reliably
Grasping: you can source slowness from Judgement Chain, so you can reserve this debuff for situations rather than feel forced to spend it for debuffs. Same logic goes for-
Lament: Weakness can be preserved, but the soft aggro pull from debuff spreading (accomplished through ally debuffs or thrown pools) means your taunt can be reserved further

Overall, I think this skill will be less consistent damage than Dpact, but without the anti heal risk, add a lot to the gameplay loop through debuff juggling (yay theming), and result in some kills due to dot (decay debuff, maybe some inferno, health percent loss) that should feel distinctly different than critbot reaper

Added a "no boss" clause to the level 2, because it would be really silly to kill any boss in 25 seconds with 4 debuffs going

[sacred ether]

read /s /j

[sacred ether]

overall agree with everything posted here
won't be commenting on skill change ideas as those are too much words for a saturday 1:00 am read

1. regarding BOTH dark pact and scythe base damage.
   yes I'll admit, I fucked up and it's the oversight of still assuming reaper having a huge multiplier on melee damage and most scythes are balanced with a base damage reduction due to that. currently I can think of only 1 scythe that dodged this bullet, and it's frankly quite nutty even compared to swords (air-purified)

expect quite a bit more damage on scythes (and maybe some rework since I don't like the slow scythes as well, relic of old stick design) for the next balance patch :)

2. dpact again, but design
   the skill have a unique attribute of antiheal for giving said buff. after the additive change I agree the upside is worse than the downside, but making a alot higher just to make it work will put it into overpowered once again. tbf forcing a magic class with melee support into a melee class with magic support is a very hard maneuver

gonna need a while to think of synergistic buffs while keeping the melee focus of reaper. work life is draining and I don't really have the energy to brainstorm much during the weekends, might take some ideas here but will have to discuss this internally to make sure all is well

2a. reaper design
the overall design of the class is fine actually, just a few kinks dragging it down alot (scythes, dpact)

I actually want to believe fixing the aforementioned issues will at least put reaper into a better state, and there might be something I can add to the 2 other skills

3. tenebrist (even though it's a reaper thread)
   tbh, I think the current tenebrist design is flawed, but synergizes with the base class well enough to make it work. a class based purely on amp hex is going to have clear speed issues no matter what I do

I will say that I don't like the current design of tenebrist and you can look forward to another rework, whenever it may be

[unreal lintel]

Thanks for your response Fwap

If ability reworks are being considered I'd like to think of some, what kind of goals would you want to see in Reaper skills other than keeping to a melee focus?

[plain tinsel]

I think warlock overall deserves some base class changes as well as changes to the specs themselves to facilitate better design all around

[sacred ether]

skill reworks will most likely not be considered

skill additions to make it better do

for dark pact, I can already think of 1 addition and 2 new charm stats to make it better and make tome of broken vows an actual 5*

1 addition for voodoo bonds as well to make it less bad

judgement chain needs a bit more time to think about

[broken cobalt]

love for r2 reaper???

[bold garnet]

good response, i love dev-players communication ❤️

[sacred ether]

maybe

[sand smelt]

This is a good hope for Reaper enjoyers

[broken cobalt]

Did someone say absorbtion added to base dark pact.... 🥺

[simple turret]

does it not do that at base?

[broken cobalt]

sorry I misspoke

TOBV being added to the base kit...

[daring steeple]

remove dark pact healing so it can be allowed to be good

[simple turret]

finally, taboo 2

[spiral brook]

why is the solution to warlocks problems just "give it a 55% damage boost, with a duration that self extends that has no drawbacks and also give you absorption" 😭

removing dark pacts downside does help the skill, but its also extremely silly

[simple turret]

Dpact is something that should be on rogue, game design wise

[spiral brook]

also is reaper intended to be a hybrid spec, or a pure melee spec? its design seems to be a hybrid spec with a melee focus, but gameplay wise it is investing into being a pure melee spec

likely because hybrid just gives you the worst of both damage types and its better to be good at one thing then mid at 2 things.

I bring this up since a lot of people (including myself) have suggested giving it more melee support in some form, but doing that does not help its (warlock) spells in any way

[simple turret]

personally I think its melee/magic hybrid
Which is why I'm advocating for a new passive that deals a small amount of damage + a % of your crit damage to enemies whenever you crit a debuffed mob
It's called "Dark Punishment"

[spiral brook]

also on the flip side, tenebrist being playing close to a pure magic build. Its only really r1 where I feel warlock is truly a hybrid class

[broken cobalt]

give warlock scout's passive but for melee and magic damage thinkies

I'm assuming what FrozenEarth was referring to earlier was to just outright bake in melee features to base Warlock to give enough room for Dark Pact to not literally be the only thing augmenting Reaper melee damage

Then you can also make hybrid tenebrist a lot easier to achieve

Then you don't need to make DPact do a shitzillion melee damage to compensate for additive changes

[spiral brook]

also reaper has noticeably less scythes then mage has wands. Mage has an abundance of wants and only ends up using a couple of them (because wand balance is fucked). But reaper should be the class with more weapon variety because reaper encourages you to use melee focused scythes (and tene has even less weapon varitey then reaper)

[simple turret]

change culling to this + when dealing magic damage right before melee damage gain resistance

[spiral brook]

not including reskins, mage has 99 wands (38 in r1, 44 in r2 and 17 in r3). Warlock has 76 scythes (25 in r1, 35 in r2 and 16 in r3)

23 more weapons is a pretty big difference considering that both wands and scythes are basically class locked (shaman uses a couple of scythes but thats another issue with that class having 0 weapons)

[broken cobalt]

dont worry hexfall will only have scythes

[spiral brook]

shaman has 4 viable weapons as of right now (in the whole game, a single r1 weapon, 2 isles weapons and 1 in r3). Please help us

[bold garnet]

ukhm, akshually... 🤓 the dark pact makes sense since the whole idea of warlock is making dark deals with higher beings, and in this case it is a tradeoff of healing for pure offense, thematically perfectly fitting the dark warlock stereotype and theme

you know, how like some dark warlocks trade their health (not hp, health in real life) for power

or their soul

[subtle nest]

Tbf the over half of those are R1, the the rest is mostly in R2, only 1 extra wand in R3 is pretty good

And most of those wands are like random uncommons

[tight kiln]

arcane fish

1% spell power goes hard

[spiral brook]

ya its not bad in r3. I suppose I could count practical weapons, but lock would win that

theres acutally a ton of uncommon and patron scythes in r1, like 15 of them

[subtle nest]

Also those are all counting tiered/gallery/maybe dd weapons, which aren't exactly staples

[spiral brook]

I counted everything thats not a weapon skin

so stuff like soul of ishnir is not counted 3 times, only once

[simple turret]

I know the thematics of the skill is supposed to be "oh you make a deal with the devil and get power but you are cursed"
But

Gain melee damage for a short period of time
No longer able to heal, so you go full offense
But, you're rewarded for being very aggressive with a duration extension, increased healing, and absorption
Which is what rogue is about - full offense and getting rewarded for going full offense so they can full offense harder

[bold garnet]

i think youre slightly mistaking the lore/in-universe theme and gameplay theme

rogues in fictional universes are thieves/assassins, playing dirty, attacking from hidden spots and preparing ambushes

not killing machines, which fits in the case of reaper since reaper is basically killing the enemies and using their essence to fuel the slaughter

[spiral brook]

theres also this thing, one of the weapons of all time and the only scythe wand hybrid (i'm not sure if it acutally works on warlock though, since its an "iron hoe" but its classified as a wand? it should work though)

wands and scythes are were popular for patron items (9 scythes and 10 wands), but despite this mage has over double the players lock has

[simple turret]

?
I'm saying dpact fits reaper's aesthetic but also would fit rogue's gameplay

[bold garnet]

in terms of gameplay themes? yes it fits, in fact the current advancing shadows enhancement playstyle is exactly what you described

rushing through enemies, killing everyone, teleporting throughout

[simple turret]

Any hoe is a scythe

[tight kiln]

there is a rare wand scythe in gray

[spiral brook]

oh wow. It acutally kinda cooks too, life drain 3 on a wand?

[tight kiln]

usual gray item ld

[spiral brook]

this thing has it beat for life drain on reaper though. Bloody fang is for sure good enough to use as a side weapon in r3, its a nice buff for reaper when its legalized

full heal on crit! 😋

[tight kiln]

ld 4 is 2 hearts

[spiral brook]

2 + soul rend though is 7 heath!

[plain tinsel]

(1 heart) (sqrt 4 = 2 hp)

[tight kiln]

ah yez

i meant hp

[wooden dirge]

what if an ability removes 1 hp/second, and you can toggle it at any time, but it has a 6 second cooldown, and while the ability is active you gain attack speed/damage

[simple turret]

Taboo (trademark pending)

[plain tinsel]

If only there was a name for forbidden dark magic a warlock would use

[wooden dirge]

does this already exist

nice im so smart

[rain locust]

(anyone remember when dpact used to give attack speed?)

[fading thicket]

U capping

[near furnace]

I also find the hybrid design of warlock a little weird . On the other hybrid classes you have synergy between the stats . On paladin your magic helps scale your melee and on scout both stats scale into one another . On warlock you get none of that so you are practically forced to scale into one . Otherwise you are less than mediocre at both and will do significantly worse .

I think cleric is the best example of that synergy where you can invest into both stats and not be worse off for it

[obsidian violet]

before i was born

[rain locust]

I'm not. It used to a long time ago

[fading thicket]

no way

that's op

[rain locust]

(back all the way in october of 2022)

[fading thicket]

can we get this back pls :beg:

[bold garnet]

no way its been 2 years since then

wth

time flies

[rain locust]

(dpact damge ended up also getting nerfed a couple of times afterward)

[sand smelt]

dear god I cannot imagine what scythes used to be like when dpact gave attack speed

not only damage shot, but also attack speed shot...

[tranquil gyro]

So as someone that has been playing the spec, I think 2/3 of its abilities are unusable and judgement chain is carrying the entire thing for me.

At least for me, Reaper has this issue of not catering to what this spec (i think) tries to be. Instead of a mobility focused melee guy, it is more of a pulling enemies to me tanky person. Both voodoo and dark pact have SOMETHING that resembles that but those things do not actually feel well to use at all. Dark pact is very situational as it is mostly a skill I use on enemies that are weaker, as turning off my healing and putting a timer on it is brutal. While voodoo is also more AoE damage, although I wish I could see the enemies that are cursed more, I do not know how bad it is balance wise but it doesn't feel like it is doing a lot, even if it might be.

What I personally dislike is that Dark Pact doesn't give the single-target damage this spec needs.

If I had to suggest something, I wish that Reaper had a single-target damage ability, even if it would be a burst/on a high cooldown.

Also for a class that is about doing damage in bursts and gathering enemies to itself, the class has literally no mobility. This is an issue when playing Reaper, and why the class strays into being more of a Tank in general, as if you do not have enough health you literally can't escape if the enemies you have forced onto yourself haven't been killed.
(This doesn't have to change, I do not think this spec should get a mobility thing bcs well, it would change its identity imo)

[lapis spindle]

holy fucking shit, out of everything you think jchain carries the class?

[tranquil gyro]

it is fun to use

smh

[lapis spindle]

lighted is based beyond belief

[tranquil gyro]

My thoughts are not about balance, at least I hope it doesn't seem that way

I am too inexperienced to talk about numbers and stuff like that

but judgement chain is just fun to use

[fading thicket]

i dont think jchain is the thing that carries the class but it's sure is fun to use

[tranquil gyro]

it carries the spec for me, not the class

[bold garnet]

when i tested it its targetting was slightly inconsistent so it wasnt that fun to me, but the depths version is one of the most fun skills maybe ever

[subtle nest]

The JChain change to a pull is like the only fun factor on the spec, I agree it's probably the coolest of the 3

[tranquil gyro]

idk i didn't really have too many issues with it

but maybe I haven't been focusing on that enouhg

ngl

lmfao

[bold garnet]

last i tested it was right after its release so thats a factor maybe

[fading thicket]

ye same, i mostly use chain for flying target and elite so i dont have much issue

[tranquil gyro]

^^^^^

[subtle nest]

Spitballing, but what if Dark Fact was a toggle instead of a duration skill. So you could freely enable/disable it, but upon disabling it, it goes on cooldown for 3-5s so you can't like turn it on for dealing damage, turn it off for taking damage. That might help the flow of the class instead of being suped for 8 seconds, then useless for 8 seconds

[tranquil gyro]

My biggest issue is that Dark Pact is a lot of risk for not too much damage

[fading thicket]

like that alchemist class abil?

forgot the name

[tranquil gyro]

It could be a toggle

but the reward of the pact would have to be higher

or the risk lower

[subtle nest]

The biggest problem with JChain is that in endgame like 50+% of mobs are immune to it

[tranquil gyro]

what

[haughty jetty]

Dark Fact

[tranquil gyro]

i am fucked

:(

[subtle nest]

Most delve mobs are cc immune

[tranquil gyro]

honestly, this makes reaper as a spec not work

if it is supposed to be a "pull enemies to me" melee type of spec

[subtle nest]

Tbf being able to choose when to turn it off would innately make the risk lower imo

[fading thicket]

honestly having it toggle would be nice, an issue that im having with reaper is that i cant finish off a target quick enough to sustain dpact, i either have to go more dmg and be paper or be more tanky but hit like paper

[tranquil gyro]

^^^

it feels like a glass cannon at times without the cannon part

like Jchain is fun so

i will keep playing it till I can't

[haughty jetty]

can we talk about soul rend trigger on reaper? I have probably never gotten 100% benefit from the healing

[tranquil gyro]

and I wanted to suggest some changes to reaper, but if this is the case than it is basically pointless to make that the core of the spec,

it is doomed to suck (in that scenario).

[fading thicket]

ye the new soul rend is ok, but i dont think it need change, im fine with the soul rend in long encounter and in short encounter i just use dpact to finish them off

[subtle nest]

Well, that's a bit of an exxageration on my part, like it'll still work on majority of normal mobs, but I feel like JChain should be used around key targets like elites or dangerous delve mobs, so when within the pool of good targets, most of them are cc immune, the skill loses a lot of it's functionality

[tranquil gyro]

Well looking at the three abilities there is
Dpact --> aoe against normal mobs
JChain --> only works on normal mobs
Voodoo --> aoe against lots of mobs

I haven't been feeling the struggle with reaper too much BUT I also haven't played a lot of the endgame content

[bold garnet]

i fail to see how dpact is aoe against normal mobs

its just... damage

against everything

[tranquil gyro]

healing

U only get health back when u use it against easier enemies

[bold garnet]

oh fair

[fading thicket]

dpact is dmg and survivalbility

[tranquil gyro]

which makes it the best time to use that ability

[fading thicket]

actually i think dpact is the thing carries reaper

[bold garnet]

it CAN be used on elites though

and woirks reasonably well

as just pure damage

if you 2 shot the elite (like most classes do at this point) and it cant deal damage to you then the -heal doesnt matter

if you cant, thats a numbers problem

[tranquil gyro]

if I get hit twice by a PoI boss I am like almost dead and have to sit down in the corner and wait till soul rend comes back

or till I can heal

[fading thicket]

I love it when reaper can just walk into a hoard of mob and came out with a slither of health with bunch of absorption by using dpact

[tranquil gyro]

this is cool but it happens too rare for me atm

[subtle nest]

Which is a huge issue when the skill is "risk dying from lack of healing to do a fraction of what other classes can, worse"

[bold garnet]

i agree with the poi boss thing, but a single target burst skill you suggested wouldnt do more anyway

[fading thicket]

ig it is, but i play alot of 65pt poi solo so it happen alot for me

[fading thicket]

ye that's why reaper feels bad rn, the + change really kills a lot of dmg

[subtle nest]

Why run the risk of using DPact when I could just be playing rogue and BMB for triple the damage every 3 seconds with no anti-heal, or play warrior and do the same damage with extra healing instead of less healing, or play melee scout and stun everything in an aoe etc etc

[bold garnet]

this is what it felt like to play reaper for me a long time ago. you walk into like 100 mobs, think youre dead but crit anyway, somehow everything is dead and youre alive

but after like starpoint released when i tried to pick it back up... i just died

i felt glassy

while dealing mediocre amounts of damage

[tranquil gyro]

well this is what the spec should be, at least from what I played and I am told

[bold garnet]

plus old voodoo was much better fitted for that playstyle than it is now

with all the hit blanking

[deep pelican]

I think ever since R3 release pretty much it was extremely broken and they finally shot it but it didn't really become interesting and it also just lost a ton of power

[fading thicket]

u see that's the fun part, the andrenaline from surviving a hoard of mob and came out barely alive is fucking awesome

[subtle nest]

This is definitely a really cool and unique playstyle that I think should be kept, but the issue comes when it's too strong and is annihilating things, but then if it's too weak you might as well just play something else. I think it's possible for there to be a sweet middle ground when you can clear through content faster than other classes with high skill, but against bosses for example you get countered

[bold garnet]

correction, both voodoo and jchain (not that i used the second one much)

[deep pelican]

My issue is it wasn't this "risky" playstyle you would just remain on full health with overheal taking all the dmg

[fading thicket]

agreed, reaper is really bad against boss

[deep pelican]

Reaper was useable against boss for sure

[fading thicket]

but i dont reaper should be doing the role of dmging boss

[tranquil gyro]

it is bad against anything single-target

[bold garnet]

reaper never bossed much tbh

[deep pelican]

for a short moment in time it would murder golem in like 2 dpacts in savage

[bold garnet]

what lighted said, 2 hits and youre running waiting for dpact to end to heal

[subtle nest]

Agreed, but why would you bother with the exhilarating playstyle when you could not play at such a risk and do better on top of that, that's the issue

[bold garnet]

(non-team setting)

[bold garnet]

... for fun?

people dont always play the meta

if that was the case reaper would have 0 play rate and everyone would swordsage

[tranquil gyro]

well i would say only jchain is fun

[deep pelican]

Nah bro reaper was my go to braindead class its just run in have 100% passive dr and dmg and just crit and do mass aoe heal and overheal

[tranquil gyro]

TRUE

[deep pelican]

im confused is this reaper now or before?

[subtle nest]

Well that's the whole point of the post, reaper basically does have 0 play rate. I agree it can be fun, but there's a limit on how bad, but fun something can be before changes need to be made

[fading thicket]

before, reaper now cant do shit and just died

[deep pelican]

well b4 i think it was very unbalanced and warrented nerfs for sure

[bold garnet]

i feel like the problem in this statement is "skill". how to introduce skill to such a playstyle?

[haughty jetty]

to me reaper just feels bland and bad

[fading thicket]

i think b4 + change reaper feels ok, post voodoo change reaper is op i agreed

[deep pelican]

reaper is way too forced of a playstyle and will be impossible until they actually add a base for it on the base class. you cant expect to force a whole playstyle from one spec

[bold garnet]

well just the fact that we have a discussion here shows that there are reaper players outside of what numbers show. this is not an issue of "this playstyle is different and riskier so people dont play it", its an issue of "this playstyle is bad and has soo much more risk for little reward"

[deep pelican]

Dpact is literally 2-3 skills in one

[tranquil gyro]

maybe they should change claws lvl 2 boost damage from magic to melee

[haughty jetty]

same goes for voodoo

[deep pelican]

well voodoo now is a little more fleshed out

old voodoo didnt even try to hide that its forcing melee stuff in

[subtle nest]

Exactly

[fading thicket]

that's a fair point

[bold garnet]

should be pinned

[tranquil gyro]

me rn

honestly

i thought it was melee

until i checked now

lmfao

[deep pelican]

i didnt even know it did that im gonna be 100

[tranquil gyro]

i did

:)

[bold garnet]

mfw warlock players forget about the gamebreaking silence on hit after casting lament

[subtle nest]

Yeah grasping + lament give buffs to the next scythe hit

[bold garnet]

yes, remember that broken coven elite that shits slimes and spiders everywhere and poisons you? for the price of CASTING A SKILL ONCE, you can get rid of ALL OF THAT

[subtle nest]

But like they don't make up the colossal difference in melee power

[bold garnet]

but yeah they werent really reaper buffs per se

they made the class as a whole more interactive, and while reaper uses that better than tenebrist its still kinda joever

[tranquil gyro]

tbh

only lament

does boost

[subtle nest]

It'd be like rogue having an addition to dagger throw that said "the first bow hit against a mob hit by this ability takes an additional 20% damage" and then giving rogue an entire ranged spec. It just doesn't work

[tranquil gyro]

bcs cursed wound enhancement is also magic

I honestly thought this boosted melee damage too until now -_-

[deep pelican]

i mean at this point reworking reaper into a tank spec would be better

[bold garnet]

and what would it do besides tanking

support like voodoo does?

i dont think the idea works with how anti-tank the whole game is

itd be used in like 1 boss in the entire game, leaving warlock with 1 spec

[tranquil gyro]

I think that is what reaper was going for???

[bold garnet]

not that i think reaper shouldnt have more tanky parts

[tranquil gyro]

like

[bold garnet]

just not pure tank

[subtle nest]

Displacement brawler tank with no damage

[deep pelican]

well damage negation is a very strong tool

and on top of that cc is also quite underrated

[tranquil gyro]

do you think a purely tank spec will be fun?

[deep pelican]

reaper could really pull off a tank spec way better then garudian

[bold garnet]

what are you gonna do with damage negation though

[deep pelican]

yes for epople who enjoy tank specs

[haughty jetty]

its a strong tool, on a terrible spec 😭

[lapis spindle]

a tank that gets its damage purely from retaliation mechanics, you must take damage to deal lots 👍
basically Stamina: The Class

[tranquil gyro]

like isn't killing enemies the entire reason to play monu -_-

[bold garnet]

like in clear, either damage negate yourself, but you build tanky anyway

[deep pelican]

the reason the powerhouse damage specs are widely played because thats what the majority finds fun

[bold garnet]

or build full offensive so you make the best use of damage negation and... we have reaper again

[deep pelican]

some people find guardian or hiero fun

[tranquil gyro]

that would be fun

[haughty jetty]

guardian is fun with its simple kit

[deep pelican]

I mean reaper having voodoo bonds and then 2 cc skills would be quite interesting imo

[bold garnet]

pretty sure noone plays guardian as a pure tank

always damage mix

[fading thicket]

Reaper is a really odd class, having the tanky capabilities of warlock and a hybrid melee magic class that lean in on melee more but cant do any of the tank or the magic well enough so ppl just lean on melee

[deep pelican]

yeah

[bold garnet]

i enjoy earth in cz, but i dont think a tank playstyle would fly high outside of it

[fading thicket]

Tank playstyle might work in team content but reaper design rn dont is selfish and cant fit on team content

[bold garnet]

i dont think it would work in team content

tell me you need a tank while clearing sskt

you dont

you clear just fine

the only use a tank has is standing still in orasomn 😂

being a tank feels good for me

but only if its necessary

[snow thunder]

you used to!

[bold garnet]

i dont remember my first sskt clear needing a tank

[fading thicket]

Maybe on chal content or world boss? Some chal i run with my m8 we used tank guard and it work fine

[bold garnet]

that is very niche

[fading thicket]

Not that niche

[bold garnet]

most people run challenges once, if ever

world boss a specific tank is unecessary. just do damage guardian or paladin or something and... run

monumenta does not have mechanics that guarantee damage, which means it is not worth to build pure tank when you can "dodge"

[deep pelican]

i mean having a tank is just like a training wheel in this game in every content pretty much

aka zenith and sskt

[bold garnet]

even in cz, the only place i have enjoyed tank it gets pretty useless on hugh asc, because everyone is so good they dont need one

[deep pelican]

in sskt a tank that can consistently take aggro for the assassin is just "nice", in zenith earth does make it baby mode but u really dont need it + what will u do when u dont ahve it up

[bold garnet]

and killing mobs would be better

[deep pelican]

even in delves arguably its just training wheels for newer players really

old spawner rushing tank set guardian days went crazy

[tranquil gyro]

weird for a spec to be only playable in a team

[fading thicket]

Isnt there one? Like heiro

[tranquil gyro]

idfk

i feel like there shouldn't ever be one

but I am also a mostly solo player

so

.-.

[fading thicket]

I think its fine to have a spec that better on team.content

I just dont think reaper fit that category

[tranquil gyro]

i mean, not better on team content

just dependent on being team only

[fading thicket]

Ye i dont the tm would go that route

[bold garnet]

i mean

hierophant i think shows a pretty clear picture of tm's philosophy on support classes

its obviously very good in teams

but it does have some solo functionality

biero exists (tbf i dont think it was intended, but nonetheless)

the buffs from thurible apply to self, prayer applies to self, beam has both offensive and defensive (heal) modes

i dont necesarily think the idea of turning reaper into a cc/tank spec would be bad

if warlock at base had better tools to give melee damage

think about it, if reaper with all its spec skills is turned into a tank rn

itll probably go tank items

and deal damage through hex

which is just a tankier version of tenebrist

not creative at all, doesnt give a variety

or even worse, if its tankiness is based on blanking hits itll go full magic damage and be tenebrist but tankier

as for the cc and teammate hit blank? itll be a niche use case in very hard content or bosses, which isnt even needed unless tha plyers are bad

thats why in its current state i believe turning reaper into a tank spec is a bad idea

[fading thicket]

Good argument vara i agreed with u right there

[bold garnet]

the tank playstyle in and of itself is ETREMELY disadvantaged by the current state of the game, and unless that is fixed first it will be a bad idea no matter what

[tranquil gyro]

so reaper needs:

• something in its base class to make melee more usable
• give it more reward for the risk, or lower the risk of Dpact
• voodoo bonds? does it even work properly -_-?

like i do not get enough feedback on voodoo

even if it works the curse spreading thing is something I forgot about

[fading thicket]

Ye ppl.kinda ignore vbond cause its just a amp hex with cursed

[bold garnet]

as a person who has tried tank reaper, voodoo bonds in my opinion need at least a buff to their hitbox that hits teammates

its very tiring having to hit it to blank hits

(it would probably be tied to chaos codex)

oh, one cool interaction of voodoo i found

is that it transfers ALL damage types

so your single target assassin, mage, scout can all benefit

(this gets removed with chaos codex and cracked pocketwatch)

and is niche on normal reaper at best

but neat

[deep pelican]

i think dpact is already extremely rewarding for how much risk it gives it just no longer has the tools to bring out its potential i would not change it

in fact if they actually buff everything around dpact it might need another nerf

[fading thicket]

we can only hope for fwap and frozenearth cookery and hope its edible

i believe in u guys

many love

[scenic bear]

i miss that so fucking much

i love warlock passive

imagine how bad reap would feel without it lol

[unreal lintel]

Voodoo Bonds was reworked to have the pin/cleave/projectile mechanic, do you feel like the AOE is not enough? Is the skill itself not that interesting to use in practice? You said you didn't get enough feedback on Voodoo, do you feel it contribute on low health targets like dreadlings?

[tranquil gyro]

i do not feel like it does anything tbh -_-

a lot of skills in monu imo have this problem

[rain prairie]

cant wait for tene rework

[arctic sleet]

This was really well-made TK, thanks for doing it!

[zealous tendon]

I think the "all in" version of dpact was very good.
No healing in exchange for a couple buffs, it is after all a dark pact. But it will naturally be too strong in some situations because you can just not take damage.

A different idea :

I don't think reaper should ever be a purely melee class because it's built on top of warlock; a magic class and that is kind of the path it has taken. It would be good to see an incentive for a hybrid, a throwback to R1 warlock, the original shape of the class. Not the sort of "melee spec" and "magic spec" branches that we have which can certainly be forced into a hybrid but do not support it very well.

I think it could be fun to see something along the lines of deal magic damage to unlock melee damage and claim it with dark pact, just a vague idea, but something like kill or damage enemies with hex to enable dark pact which would be melee damage. Further developing the idea : Deal magic damage to gain a stack of X, deal more melee damage per stack and consume a stack on hit.

@sacred ether

[broken cobalt]

I'm assuming that was what FrozenEarth was talking about when referring to changes to the base kit

Give base Warlock a bit of melee oomph in the base kit to incentivize hybrid

[bold garnet]

Yes, and I just want to say that ccwound doesn't really count... 15% (or 30% is not really that much, especially after additive)

[tranquil gyro]

honestly I wish Sanguine Harvest was like a melee focused skill

[bold garnet]

Sanguine Harvest is pretty fine as it is tbh. Its level 2 is also melee focused rn

But ccwound I think should maybe be reworked for a more interesting way to amp melee damage

And maybe another skill like choleric flames?

Just to have an addition to melee somehow

[tranquil gyro]

idk it the only one I don't use

and it kinda sucks as a spell

[bold garnet]

WHAT

Sanguine is like one of the best spells

In warlock's kit

It basically gives free bleed to EVERY spell

And gives quite a lot of health on kill

And on hit if not on kill

[bold garnet]

Which, TBF only activates if the mob is below half, but works for hex or hex eater, and if it does activate its both weakness and slowness, both really good debuffs

[tranquil gyro]

wait i will show my build once i come back home

[unreal lintel]

Well it's really one of the more impactful passives, as an active sanguine is caught in a very strange place once specs come into play

As reaper you get no benefit from the healing while in dark pact, and as tenebrist your amp hex will delete most mobs outright

You could save it for follow up mobs like specters or high speed spawners, but haunting shades already applies healing passively and has near 100% uptime as is

Region 3 doesn't have any charms that alleviate this for reaper, but ghostly eminence removes the healing so it could theoretically matter more. In other classes the healing potential would be very desireable, but with soul rend and spec gameplay deviation, it doesn't show itself to be a very strong skill. Bloodletter's Blade is one of the craziest charms for value cost with 50% faster Cooldown and extra radius with knockback as a maybe downside, and is 4 charm power, not 5 despite those massive advantages

[bold garnet]

Yeah for reaper the healing is useless (common reaper healing L) but for tenebrist its been really useful if I lose any health while setting up a hex, hexing a group of mobs is basically a fullheal straight up

[plain tinsel]

I do not like sanguine harvest at all personally lol

[bold garnet]

Its one of my favourite abilities from warlock

[plain tinsel]

The nice part is that you get to mark things and then harvest them

And synergizes with amp hex u well

[subtle nest]

Only thing I don't like is that it's visually unappealing at base with just a red orb/line lol. As a skill, it's pretty handy as a mid-post fight supplement to soul rend

[plain tinsel]

But the completely free bleed is the most trivializing of debuff applications, it doesn’t have a use in bosses, nonexistent on reaper, requires mobs to mark after soul rend has taken care of most things already (i.e. only dreadlings)

I’d probably say amplifying hex is the most in need of a visual upgrade

[bold garnet]

Both are tbh, and most warlock skills are pretty bare bones in their current form

[zealous tendon]

my new favourite warlock ability

[scenic bear]

new judgement chains charm singlehandedly made the class much better i cant lie

[tranquil gyro]

^^^^^^^^^

[thick forge]

its so rageful

iv even

big fan of not-shadowgrasp

[fading thicket]

i cant seem to chain more than 2 target or u need jc 2

ye u need jc 2

[scenic bear]

yeah i realized

charm is actually not nearly as good as i was hoping

[sand smelt]

I personally don't use dark pact so it looks tailor made for me

[fading thicket]

ok new jchain charm is pretty good, although u have kill vbond, the +2 target with 2 charges make chaining group of enemy very fun, it also bring some mob up to one shot potential with the vulnerable

[scenic bear]

killing vbond is a no for me unfortunately.

[fading thicket]

Losing vbond for me is fine since im using hex on reaper i still got some aoe

[sly token]

reaper is like moving mobs cleric right?

[fading thicket]

Wdym moving mob, chaining them only pull them closer, u cant drag them around

[haughty jetty]

would be funny if jchain pulled enemies torwards you if theres enough distance between you and the targets

becoming a leash

[simple turret]

somewhere, in an alternate timeline, reaper has to play a fishing minigame and slowly reel mobs in whenever they use jchain

[fading thicket]

My god that so silly

[sly token]

Reaper becomes a fishing rod class

[scenic bear]

my dream reaper scenario is a world where reaper operates similarly to how it does now, but with real damage

[haughty jetty]

they should make dpact give more damage the more kills you get during dpact 🥺

[zealous tendon]

my D.R.E.A.M. scenario

[thick forge]

dpact atks

is where its really at

[tranquil gyro]

make it so kills give more saturation, and then buff the dpact attacks on the amount of saturation you have

[sacred ether]

saturation will never happen

[spiral brook]

whats wrong with skills that interact with saturation?

[simple turret]

because saturation regen is busted
and getting saturation from dpact kills basically means you'll have full sat when the skill ends

[spiral brook]

is healing normally not also busted then? I'm just asking whats wrong with them in concept anyways; adding it to dark pact would just bloat the skill even more.

[simple turret]

Saturation regen, if you don't have to eat, is a constant high regeneration effect with no downsides
Imagine being in a town, permanently, with no resistance though

idk if that's the reason why skills don't have it but it's very strong

[spiral brook]

Other classes get powerful buffs permanently, like scout is just naturally faster can can jump higher. Saturation is for sure extremely powerful though.

You get numb to it after playing; but you really do spent a lot of time watching the eating animation in minecraft. Its a second and a half per item and with most builds running 3 consumables and eating them once a minute on average; thats a lot of time spent crunching. Having a class that doesent need to constantly eat could be a interesting change of pace from the gourmet norm.

I main shaman and about an entire 13th of my play time is spent being gluttonous, since magic classes are encouraged to just eat when their spells are on cd since its something productive to do.

[tranquil gyro]

OHH I MEANT LIKE

THE GOLD HP

I FORGOR

Like the temp hearts

Make reaper based on that

[simple turret]

not a bad idea if there's something like Convert all health into absorption that decays quickly

For dpact
this is a dumb idea lmao you just die instantly unless you heal per kill or get dr nvm

absorption is kinda a side thing tacked on reaper rn to make sure dpact doesn't kill it outright so good idea

[subtle nest]

Yes, Monumenta massively struggles with how overpowered healing is, and a good chunk of that is just normal vanilla food healing

[tranquil gyro]

Instead of Dpact being cooldown based

you would convert 50% of your health into like absorption, and dpact damage would be based on that.

or smth like that

[lapis spindle]

big fan of warlock because you can make hugely overcomplicated ability descriptions and it won't feel out of place

[tranquil gyro]

LMFAO

no but having an absorption based melee spec is

that seems v simple as a concept

and works with the life-steal stuff, especially that it is absorption (bcs well it is much easier to lose and it runs out of combat)

[scenic bear]

💬

[tranquil gyro]

the smallest speech bubble to exist

lmfao

[sly token]

mapoth?