Celestial Zenith Feedback Thread

[flint trellis]

Last Breath because I like a good few Wind abilities anyway
Steel Stallion because...mate, it's Steel Stallion, do I have to explain myself

[delicate timber]

every tree, expect maybe steel

[fallow plume]

Steel and wind were the two I wasn’t sure about, idk what other abilities are worth taking instead

[delicate timber]

wind wants aero, thundercloud + movement spell of your choice, has 1 flexible slot. It could take last breath if it had too but would rather keep it open

[quaint flicker]

last breath is really cool on wind since its a full ability cooldown reset even at common

would be cool if other trees had similar kinds of interactions in-tree

[wise quiver]

it’s also just . a lifeline that does its job decently

i like it everywhere

[shy trellis]

shadow has high demand low play, no idea why though

shadow can surely do some on clear, if u got good charm blade dance can do decent aoe, advancing shadow combine other damage boost can do high damage to elite mob(target shadow mainly attack), but it require u get good enough charm, which matter for high asc

it surely can do some, but generally caster just does way better, i honest don't see which part shadow does better, even in quickly kill elite part, i will said shadow suffer from single target when zenith has shit ton of mob, it does good at boss, but that's only part i feel need when i play shadow

[quaint flicker]

shadow will never be as good as a caster playing equally as effectively (casters just have way more aoe options), but if you play like a teneberist you can clear very effectively and often more effectively than a caster not playing so aggressively

encounters are limited by how fast you can break spawners and move on so even though casters can kill stuff easier flurry is on a low enough cooldown that you can go spawner to spawner pretty comfortably

[shy trellis]

to make shadow more "fun" during room clear, i think it can more small radius aoe option like ronde, or tweak spawner placement so elite doesn't cover by shit ton of normal mob, since u need get close to mob, maybe also do some to room layout

[quaint flicker]

yeah the biggest issue with shadow clear is that your only two options are chroma blade and blade flurry (both on the same slot), so if you dont get either of those clearing just takes forever

[shy trellis]

one often meet problem i play shadow but didn't get flurry is my sight always cover by my caster teammate, they do great job on clear and push really fast, but since they block my sight i can't really melee mob, so i go be a shadow digger, at least phantom force does feel like doing something

[delicate timber]

fix brutalize radius

"but it would be too op if it worked correctly"! then why is there a completely dead charm stat in the game?

[quaint flicker]

they actually did last patch

[delicate timber]

oh?

[quaint flicker]

but it isnt that great compared to just flurry

[delicate timber]

💔

[quaint flicker]

Fixed Brutalize dealing too much damage to the mob hit
Fixed Brutalize not taking many multipliers into account on splash damage

[delicate timber]

idk maybe they could make decoy dummy explode when its expired and have that be some extra AOE for shadow

[quaint flicker]

tbh i didnt test but it feels like the brutalize damage% is capped based on the max health of the mob you hit

[shy trellis]

decoy should ge tweak when 99% it got nuke by your caster teammate

[quaint flicker]

so like if you do 20000 damage to a 200 health mob it only takes the %damage of the 200

[shy trellis]

test it!

[delicate timber]

Thats just poor placement most of the time. Decoy dummy does its job, it just cannot accomplish anything extra and has a long cooldown (making it unappealing when we have an abil cap of 4)

[shy trellis]

its a good skill in dd for me, but in zenith is uhhh, abil cap is one of reason

[delicate timber]

Also decoy dummy being able to proc deto makes it better to take off class!

[shy trellis]

true!

[delicate timber]

I've used decoy dummy then destoried it on purpose to trigger a deto chain reaction before

[quaint flicker]

im just guessing since i cant kill dreadlings with brutalize before they just die 1 at a time but on a dummy i was able to do like over a hundred damage in aoe with epic brut (should be 1 shotting dreadlings)

[shy trellis]

or go do a bug report see what happen if that's the case

sounds bug to me at least

[quaint flicker]

yeah decoy could be actually worth it compared to just building stealth if it wasnt such a massive cooldown

[delicate timber]

I wonder if changing its charms could help somehow. Right now its charms improve its stalling power and durability but outside of speedruns those things are not that useful.

It would be cool if we had a +dummies stat letting you throw out multiple dummies

[shy trellis]

sounds very fun

i do think charm somehow limit itself, it could get more unique thing to work with

instead just buff your skill, but that also due to unique modifer are less useful then big damage big radius low cd

since zenith really encourage clear faster

[delicate timber]

decoy is worth casting; being able to manipulate mobs is really useful when you use it right. If you time it to let a creeper explode you can use it to kill a group of mobs while also being completely safe in the process AND take out the spawners the mobs came from. But its limited by its super long cooldown and its also in a competitive slot.

[shy trellis]

yeah itself is a good design and fun skill to use for me, but the explode due to teammate problem really hurt, and i would like to pick up other option when play caster

[molten sand]

I will take this chance to necropost and say this again, please for the love of god

[delicate timber]

no, instead in a19 the game will view all of your charms before the run starts and give you a block on your best ability at the start of every run!

and in a20 they remove cleanse!

[molten sand]

There is such a stark difference in the quality of a run when you roll an ability for which you have no use on an important trigger compared to rolling a passive or an ability for a dead slot you wouldn't use anyway (A14+)

Let alone an ability that is actually relevant to your tree

I'm not going into runs hoping to get something good, I'm going into runs hoping to not get something bad

[teal plank]

this is fax i love tanking calli 😄

[empty sentinel]

Decoy is kind of lowkey broken like that

If you and your team let it do its thing

[quaint flicker]

f2 hoglin completely ignoring its aggro:

[delicate timber]

eh, consider that disco ball will just outright kill the enemies with a faster cooldown, less brain power, regardless of the context and can scale tremendously. Even pyroblast can clear out normal mobs just fine with no charms. Decoy dummy does work without needing magic damage, but shadow cannot take it because of the abil cap.

in practice decoy dummy's cooldown is even longer then 18 seconds because its situational and it being situational means your not encouraged to use it recklessly so your holding onto it while its fully charged for even longer.

[red wyvern]

Twisted Decoy gets 2 tapped by Davey undelved lmao

it's cool when it works but it doesn't last more than a couple seconds

[delicate timber]

also skyhook exists. Its pretty hard for any tree to pass up on it unless you have a good reason to do so (like having a charmed bow abil or disco ball)

decoy dummy still far better then piercing cope and earth quake; but I think all 3 of those bow sneaks are just underpowered in zenith.

[shy trellis]

and the problem is u don't need it do its thing, damage > everything

and its gonna explode by my teammate anyway

[shy trellis]

good start, we'll see how it work out

for the upgrade to next rarity, what will happen to orignal stat? Will stat reroll or get update/new stat

[zinc rain]

prob just stat upgrade ngl

but W patch

[glacial sun]

new stats cannot be added and existing stats' rarities are increased

not sure on the exact way the latter happens that might be frozenearth question

[shy trellis]

so oringal stat will be upgrade(cause rarity increase give more budget), it won't get reroll

for Shattered Gems, does higher asc increase drop rate

[glacial sun]

yes

also the 2 tweaked rooms are f2 train and f2 gray-colored featuring pygmy burrows

[shy trellis]

have 0 idea about gray color one...

[shy trellis]

may i ask the excat data

[dusk bay]

I pray for the train room

[shy ibex]

Train room now features trains which move randomly and may one shot you at times

[glacial sun]

train room makes you play frogger

[shy ibex]

Train room was reworked by charging UV adding exciting lava lakes

[glacial sun]

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/dtpujgdazk
t = treasure score (54 is default winning run treasure score)
a = ascension
r = treasure score requirement (if not met, the chance for getting the item is (treasure score*asc multiplier)/requirement)
b = daily bonus (set to 0 if without)
y (result) = chance of obtaining a gem (1 = 100%)

270 requirement, 10% ascension scaling, 0.6 daily bonus

3 can be combined with some currency to make a full charm upgrader

Without daily bonus it's: 0.2 a0, 0.3 a5, 0.4 a10, 0.5 a15, 0.56 a18 - a10 is an important breakpoint for being the first ascension to have a guaranteed daily

[abstract stratus]

train room but its back to being rainbow coloured

[glacial sun]

We wanted to make it require multiple so that you can purchase a fraction of one from others and to not make it feel like a single rare drop you could go for a while without finding, and put most of the value on the daily bonus so that it can't be grinded as much

Celestial Zenith Feedback Thread

[arctic sierra]

Is it 1:1 for drop -> upgrade, i assume with bonus currency?

[quaint flicker]

Is it possible to roll a lower stat from upgrading a charm if you had a high roll lower rarity stat?

[arctic sierra]

oh

i cant read

3:1 with currency, but 1/day at 100%

[left phoenix]

I think the mech uses the using unspent budget to upgrade thing

[empty sentinel]

Doesn't change rolls at all

[quaint flicker]

Whats the point of upgrading then

[glacial sun]

rarity increases the values
"rolls" are a flat variance added/subtracted from rarity values

[quaint flicker]

Ohh

[lucid anvil]

Increases values, doesn't increase overall roll

[wise quiver]

wynncraft ids

[shy ibex]

Its like recombobulator

[lucid anvil]

so 30 to 35 for damage epic to legendary

[wise quiver]

if you are aware of how they generally are

[empty sentinel]

The internal roll stays the same, it just boosts the effects' rarity

[wise quiver]

the % or whatever

if my understanding of it is correct then the base value is bumped up

to the next rarity

[arctic sierra]

do we know how many wildcards are offered on average?

is it something like 3 or 5?

[empty sentinel]

What

[arctic sierra]

wildcard rooms give +1 tresure socre

so how many are offered on average per run

[quaint flicker]

Also can we get a charm rarity% buff for a18 its kind of silly that it doesnt change from a15

3 curses for the same charm rates

[lucid anvil]

3 curses is so bad 💀

[fallow plume]

is it visible on the item when it has been upgraded with the upgrader?

[glacial sun]

Yeah

[empty sentinel]

Yes

[glacial sun]

I will think about it (probably)

[empty sentinel]

It's very cool I think

[shy ibex]

Yeah

[pseudo temple]

we get more charms tho

[shy ibex]

Its gonna be like pet candy charms are gonna be worth 50% less for real

[arctic sierra]

100% leg

[wise quiver]

theaz1 are your charms natty.

[shy ibex]

What does that mean

[arctic sierra]

yes or no, are they natty

[delicate timber]

why are the old charms not upgraded too?

feels kinda bad to buff charms tremendously but leave all of the old charms terrible

[shy trellis]

player go: my xxx har charm turn into shit, riot and burn dev

i would perfer it don't touch old charm

[delicate timber]

it not touching old charms means that everybody is starting over since our potential power has increased by a a lot. Most old charms are just going to be mog fodder unless they where already insane to begin with.

well in the long term, short term we are still using old stuff

its kinda like a soft reset for zenith charms

[shy ibex]

Not exaclty

[dusk bay]

It would be neat if there was some way to discuss a room other than "Notable feature of the room", there's floor/room numbers for rooms detailed in the github (depths/f1r5, depths/f2r19, depths2/d3r14), but they don't really mean a lot to players without other context (you could probably figure out which room is which based on their bounding box/interior space, but that's a gross way of going about it)

[glacial sun]

kind of unlikely to happen

[shy trellis]

what's floor mean here

[glacial sun]

round down

because I think treasure score does that

[shy trellis]

i see

[quaint flicker]

How does charm upgrading work on multiple stats? Like if i had a charm with epic and an uncommon stat on a charm, do they become legendary and rare or both legendary?

[glacial sun]

@empty sentinel question

[empty sentinel]

It depends and it's random

[shy ibex]

I love rng

[empty sentinel]

Depends on if the upgrade provides enough boost to upgrade both or just one of them, and random (technically not) on which stats it chooses in particular

[delicate timber]

oh wait by "existing charms are not effected" that means we cannot upgrade them right?

[empty sentinel]

Where does it say that

[glacial sun]

Zenith Charms will now generate with 10 stats maximum. Existing charms will not be affected.

[empty sentinel]

^

The whole sentence

Or well, line

[delicate timber]

oh so then this is not nearly as severe as I thought then

its only a minor buff to charms overall, new ones will roll a bit better then before though

and epic charms are now insane because they are acutally just cheaper legendaries to produce. Much easier to get a good epic charm then a good legendary charm

[shy ibex]

With the info you have i think you should think again

[delicate timber]

"Added Shattered Gems as a rare Zenith loot drop. You have a higher chance of gaining them on your first Zenith clear of the day.

These items can be used to purchase Celestial Gems, which can be used to upgrade any Zenith Charm to the next rarity, but can only be used on the same charm once.

Zenith Charms will now generate with 10 stats maximum. Existing charms will not be affected."

I don't think its implied that legendary charms are upgradeable too

[shy ibex]

They should be relatively expensive

[delicate timber]

well sure, but I'm just saying its easier to get a god roll epic (which can now be upgraded) then it is to get a god roll legendary

[shy ibex]

Well not really because the bad epics turn into leg fuel, and good epics wont Always get better

[delicate timber]

its not really explained how upgrading charms works, I would guess it just bumps up all of the numbers and not rerolls them completely?

like if you took this charm it becomes 33-35 split arrow damage

[shy trellis]

.

[delicate timber]

oh I can't fucking read sorry I'm a monumenta player

so that charm has a reasonable chance to upgrade split arrow but if it was a 5 star charm the upgrade would be pretty risky and not likely to pay off

even then its still easier to get charms, even if not as much as I thought it would be from my knee jerk reaction

[empty sentinel]

It's always guaranteed that you have one charm stat at the rarity of the charm

So epic -> legendary will always boost at least one stat (probably one that was epic already) to legendary

[shy trellis]

Credit: Carefreemiau

[delicate timber]

can the budget of a charm go down in that transition? for example if that became max split arrow damage, would one of the other 2 stats get reduced?

[empty sentinel]

No

Budget never goes down

It's an upgrade

[delicate timber]

oh so its not acutally that risky then

[empty sentinel]

Well don't confuse budget and charm effect rarity though

[shy trellis]

Credit: Carefreemiau

[delicate timber]

also I wonder if we will ever see earth charms again now that people are just going to mog charms for their own tree

[fallow plume]

its 2 har 32 blightdust

they're only gonna be used by ppl playing ironman

which is fine imo

[quaint flicker]

Could be worth for leg mogging

[fallow plume]

well worth the cost tbh

[left phoenix]

That’s honestly more expensive than I thought
probably still worth for like rare+ mogs
But yeah it’s probably not worth for non-ironman

[shy trellis]

I think is worth if u have spefic want

Money is like 1 high asc run, dust doesn't have much use outside of delve infuse

[wise quiver]

realistically most people are only going to use candles on the higher rarities

so

[molten sand]

These seem like very good changes

I'm still a little worried about new player progression but we'll see how that works itself out now that gems are included in the daily bonus

[flint trellis]

the ability to guarantee that a mog results in a charm you might actually be able to use seems really nice for

well, bluntly

people like me who don't have hundreds upon thousands of HAR to throw away on god charms or the time to run one billion high ascensions for said god charms

[lucid anvil]

Do you not think it’s too expensive when you could buy a half decent charm for 10-15har with the specific stats you need

[shy trellis]

No

[lucid anvil]

I already know your opinion

I’m asking Thomas

[shy trellis]

BecauseI generally hate zenith charm ask player use market

Yeah just for... record

[lucid anvil]

Gotchu

I mean, makes sense but good cz charm sets are impossible without market. I just think you’re losing a lot of money by buying these candles. You’re basically scamming yourself, it’s more so a recommendation not to buy them

[shy trellis]

So I consider make get good charm easier to get is important to reduce market need, which is what candle do. I understand your point but that require market

Candle Price seems fine to me, if dev gonna change it I am fine also

[pulsar elm]

Damn

[shy trellis]

~~Accroding to my friend leg charm can be upgrade, is this a bug or?~~seems not a bug

[summer hazel]

Yeah I'd make them cheaper and rather just add another epic cosmetic ad money sink.
Gatekeeping new players from getting usable stuff by forcing them to pay tons of cash will only screw them up, while already setup rich players continue to be rich

[glacial sun]

unfortunate timing with frozen going to sleep but he'll look into it

[shy trellis]

I see

[summer hazel]

This is not the solution, but i am very happy to see this new feature

[molten sand]

A possibility could be to make this new mogging thing a little less expensive and then make it able for rich players to reroll stat ranges on charms to aim for perfect rolls (within the modifier's rarity), but very happy with this so far

[left phoenix]

The candles do eliminate all wildcard charms
If that’s valuable enough for the price

[delicate timber]

thats only worth it for leg + leg gamble

with 15 har on the line (mog legs are 15 now lmao) its worth using the new candle to avoid getting an adapt charm

[teal plank]

probably

im gonna spam only flame candles idc how not worth it is

[shy trellis]

ok it seems pic my friend post is in fact a charm from another friend, i think he mistake, proably no bug here

yeah my friend just confirm is epic upgrade to leg, sorry for misinformation

[runic tartan]

[mild oar]

is it normal that I upgrade my charm but the firedura ate the budget and upgrade instead of dmg and range stat

[molten sand]

tragic

[mild oar]

this is so dumb that will make -firedura charm unworth to upgrade ngl

[molten sand]

Sounds like not every stat is guaranteed to get upgraded

[charred ravine]

that's hilarious

[mild oar]

yea but Im crying now

[molten sand]

sorry!

-96 bdust -10 har

[mild oar]

mone doesnt matter, but that mean it's not worth to upgrade most of the -firedura flame charms

[molten sand]

I mean, we don't know how it works

You can't be certain it always upgrades fire dura

If it can upgrade damage or radius it's probably still worth to gamble

[mild oar]

yes so Im here to ask if it's a bug or wut

[hollow wagon]

Seems intentional, you just got super unlucky sadly

[hallow sphinx]

seems like intentional behavior to me

[dusk bay]

There's a sense of accomplishment when you earn something that is decidedly not there if you have to buy the majority of your charms because you never see worthwhile charms after dozens of runs

[molten sand]

Couldn't have said this with better words

Sorry for the ping oops

[shy ibex]

huh

[shy trellis]

?

[shy ibex]

they upgraded a legendary?

[lucid anvil]

I understand

[shy trellis]

no, they upgrade a epic

[shy ibex]

well thats normal

[shy trellis]

and from their word i thought they upgrade a leg which is bug i think

at the end i found he mean upgrade a epic to leg

so i said not a bug

[empty sentinel]

Monumenta has 0 bugs

[empty sentinel]

Well... it's upgraded, so yeah

Btw anyone seen glowed up lightning bottles yet

[coarse quartz]

❌

still think it would be cool to have this system anyway not even just for novelty or rich people twisted charms just sound so cool

[shy ibex]

candles and celestial gems are mad expensive

the candles are gonna sink a whole lot of money

[coarse quartz]

yeah i just logged on and saw i was very much sleep deprived while reading this changelogs

[molten sand]

candles have sunk money indeed

[shy ibex]

twisted charms sound pretty cool but i think itd have to be something cooler

prismatic ability stats?!

[molten sand]

3 rolls and I got phantom force duration twice

[coarse quartz]

i was under the impression that celestial gems dropped staright up from zenith but no u need 3x and u need to sink a bunch of har into upgrading the shattered gems into a celestial gem

[molten sand]

It's 10 HAR 96 Bdust for an upgrade

[coarse quartz]

still neat changes

but still not fixing the charm jealousy

[molten sand]

correct

[shy ibex]

i did like 5 rolls and got 5 star mog fuels its ok

[molten sand]

nothing has changed lol lmao

[dusk bay]

You're 90% of the way there, surely the next roll will pay out

[molten sand]

surely

[hollow wagon]

Just did the math, taking blightdust at 8ar per, a specific candle is 96x the price of the regular 4ar one, but you do need to factor in the "value" of keeping all of the other charms you would have mogged in the rng situation

[molten sand]

Yeah it's about 20-25 HAR for a Legendary roll taking that into account

Maybe more if prices skyrocket

It should self fund itself though, because if there's a shortage of mats on the market people will want to play more

[warped swallow]

I really love the UI changes and they're pretty!!!
... but they also seem to reset to 0 every time you open a new room due to a bug, or something similar, will bug report properly once I have had more than a few rooms to test it

A small price to pay for aesthetics

[empty sentinel]

That has been fixed

Effective immediately

[warped swallow]

🙏

Now I can look at my pretty bottles go splash splash

[mild oar]

now I need to consider a lot of thing before upgrade my flame charms

[jolly ibex]

Just do calculations

That shrimple

[agile rock]

Celestial gift rework when 🥺

[shy trellis]

before after

[delicate timber]

seems pretty good

silence dura ate some budget but not too much so its fine

[molten sand]

It's unfortunate it was already epic before

Still though, pretty good

[fallow plume]

does anyone have the list of stats that dont roll on legendary charms anymore?

[teal plank]

Wdym

[fallow plume]

@empty sentinel was this supposed to apply retroactively? i still have a legendary charm with bottled sunlight velocity

[empty sentinel]

No

Only new generation

[fallow plume]

ah ok

[maiden flare]

can someone post a charm pre upgraded with a negative roll then one after upgrade

will it like

be less negative

LOL

[quaint flicker]

It can be you can see the upgrade order by viewing the nbt of the item

[fallow plume]

#1263773425411948595 message

[surreal kiln]

My charm that was negative got rid of a stat and became no negitive instead of switching over which it should have had the budget for

[maiden flare]

Okay okay ty

[surreal kiln]

All charms are meant to use there full budget now right?

[empty sentinel]

To an extent yes

There are a couple of situations where the charm will have 1-2 budget left, which isn't enough to trigger an upgrade to the next rarity

But anything with 3 or more remaining budget is a bug, since that means the upgrading portion of the generation didn't work somehow

[pseudo temple]

what if there are charms with negative budget

[empty sentinel]

What does that mean

[pseudo temple]

what happens if you upgrade a charm that has negative budget already

[empty sentinel]

How does a charm have negative budget

Budget starts at whatever value (based on charm power, rarity, and charm type) and goes down by adding/upgrading effects until it reaches 0

[surreal kiln]

You can have a net negitve charm but it still uses its budget

Some common rolls can be -

[empty sentinel]

Yeah that's just some common effects having a low enough value that enough variance can make them negative

They are still counted as common effects though and will take away budget

[pseudo temple]

ok so single ability 1 star epic would be 2 * 5 = 10 budget right
so it can have one epic (free) and one uncommon (-8) trait right

am I doing this right

[empty sentinel]

Yes

[pseudo temple]

then how does this exist

[empty sentinel]

Idk

[pseudo temple]

upgrading it just increases the budget and rerolls right

[empty sentinel]

Doesn't affect the rolls at all

[pseudo temple]

but it allocates the budget again

so upgrading that would only increase the free trait from epic to leg and nothing else I think

[empty sentinel]

Would boost it to both legendary

[pseudo temple]

what

1* single ability leg would be 12 budget, leg trait is -16

[empty sentinel]

Actually if you send the charm data this would be easier to figure out

[pseudo temple]

I'm just wondering if charm upgrading increases the budget + recalculates trait rarities or if it just bumps the rarities of all traits by 1

[empty sentinel]

Just increases the budget via rarity upgrade + begins upgrading stats 1 by 1 until no more budget is left

It doesn't increase every stat by 1

[pseudo temple]

oooh okay

ty

[quaint flicker]

Probably a treelocked roll not single ability

Pretty sure single ability would be epic uncommon

Or its just old from some older budget calc since charms dont change retroactively very often

[empty sentinel]

Yeah, 1 power tree/wildcard charms can sometimes appear like single ability ones but have way more budget

[pseudo temple]

not treelocked for sure
probably not updated yet since I stuffed it in a chest

[maiden flare]

hi anyone who is gud with budget and stuff can you take a look at this charm (if you need to hold it is top floor of maid plot) idk how the upgrade gems work :))

or alternatively explain like im stupid because i am

[runic tartan]

can you still look at the nbt with that mod on or does it break

[jolly ibex]

insert name here will gatekeeping upgrade formula and snipping charm that have potential to be upgraded

[mild oar]

#1263773425411948595 message

imagine

[pseudo temple]

lf charm

[pseudo temple]

@empty sentinel when charms are upgraded, it loops through each trait in order until there's no more budget left right?

[empty sentinel]

Yeah

[quaint flicker]

shouldnt this have upgraded 4 stats not just 3?

[pseudo temple]

this has 2 spare budget, should flamestrike cd be legendary?

yeah what ora has

I'm assuming cone angle is taking budget but not upgrading since it can't be higher than leg?

is that intentional?

[empty sentinel]

Probably a bug

[quaint flicker]

if it ends up being a bug can the cd be fixed/upgraded?

[empty sentinel]

Unlikely

[quaint flicker]

couldnt i just get the old epic charm/gem back and re-upgrade it when its fixed?

[empty sentinel]

It'll probably upgrade itself tbh

[quaint flicker]

oh cool then

[empty sentinel]

Since once the bug with it getting held up on cone angle is fixed, the upgrade will properly get to make it to the cooldown

Probably... no promises

[quaint flicker]

could be an issue with the upgrade system, this has an >30% dmg epic roll (shouldnt be possible) and ive seen a 24% legendary damage roll before on some random flame damage stat (i forget which)

^ charm was rolled a while ago, stats unchanged

[shy ibex]

cloak goes up to 35 epic sir

[quaint flicker]

Old values:
Cooldown: max 50%, var 6 (+/- variance), 6/10/14/18/22 (values at Common-Legendary)
Damage: max 100%, var 10, 10/15/20/25/30
Radius: max 100% var 10, 20/30/40/50/60

New values:
Cooldown: max 30%, var 3, 5/7.5/10/12.5/15
Damage: max 80%, var 5, 10/15/20/25/30
Radius: max 50%, var 5, 10/15/20/25/30

[shy ibex]

oh.

maybe that forgot to affect cloak

[empty sentinel]

That was just for regular damage stats

Not damage mults

Since they function way differently

[quaint flicker]

intended that this no longer costs 10har+gems?

[jolly ibex]

[red wyvern]

chat is this intentional?

[quaint flicker]

also can wind walk velocity be made upgradable to legendary its a very nice stat

[surreal kiln]

True

[delicate timber]

I have a question / complaint about ice barrier charms (and how -cdr is decided in general). This is what my upgrade preview shows me what I will get. But why the hell is the upgrade to cooldown only 12.8%. I thought 12% was the max for epic charms, but my upgrade is not even giving me an entire extra SECOND of CDR. The thing is if it was 13.8 CDR (which would still be really unlucky) I would just upgrade it and have no complaints; since I really do just need 1.5 extra % on that stat.

I thought I would be getting a meaningful upgrade, but instead all the game has to offer to me is -1 ice duration 💔

acutally though why can a legendary roll be less then 1% better then an epic roll?

I feel like they should be at least 1% better then the max an epic can have, not less then a percent better.

[quaint flicker]

its a rarity upgrade not a roll% upgrade

the rolls stay identical

you got a low roll epic stat which turns into a low roll legendary stat

[delicate timber]

but like why can a leg low roll, be so low in the first place?

[quaint flicker]

because thats how it was coded 15 base variance 3

[delicate timber]

like why can it be just .8% better then an epic stat thats so awkward; it should round up (or down)

[quaint flicker]

what

[jolly ibex]

what

[quaint flicker]

your epic stat is not 12% cdr

you gain 2.5% cdr

which is the difference between epic and leg (15 base - 12.5 base = 2.5% upgrade)

[delicate timber]

I'm saying that low roll cdr should be at minimum 13% (1% better then max roll possible on the epic), not able to be 12 with a decimal.

[jolly ibex]

ok

[quaint flicker]

then max would have to be 17%

3% is not a lot i disagree

[jolly ibex]

fun fact new value actually make cdr easier to roll to get cap

[quaint flicker]

yeah with 2 average roll cdr charms you get max cdr which is pretty fair

1 bad + 1 good = max cdr, 2 mid = max cdr

[jolly ibex]

was needed 2 75%+ charm in before

now just 2 50% one

[delicate timber]

thats true acutally. I was trying to max ice barrier CDR with my 16.5% charm so I needed one with 13.5 or better to max it. I was waiting for the upgrade preview to see if that 3 star charm could do it for me, but I just got disapointment

at least I did wait though...

[quaint flicker]

its not like going for 28% cdr (2 low rolls) to 30% is even that big of a difference gameplay wise its mostly the gold color dopamine

[delicate timber]

but gold colour dopimine is all I want 😍

[jolly ibex]

pay for it

[delicate timber]

but people mog ice barrier charms

they don't understand its not a bad skill anymore

both of my extra ice barrier charms have 12% (or at least that one would of had it if I accepted the upgrade) when I just need 13

[glacial sun]

was unintentional, hotfixed it just now

The price was changed fairly last minute while the server was starting up and Frozen forgot to also change it on dev so it unintentionally reverted this update

[empty sentinel]

Lol lmao

Gotta get those acolyte aspects…

[coarse quartz]

Do you mean get mythica from sky lootrun?

[coarse quartz]

ngl what if we added corkian insulators

[empty sentinel]

That was one of the ideas

Tree candles, upgrade gems, reroll items

The first two made it, the last was judged as too specific and niche

[surreal kiln]

can we make candles cost more blightdust and less har

[flint trellis]

can we make candles cost more Blightdust and more HAR

[surreal kiln]

no????

[flint trellis]

it's either that or we wait until Isles exalteds come out and TM surely adds the Exalted Sinkatron

[surreal kiln]

@huiyingz

z

[flint trellis]

(I believe the idea with tree candles is to both provide a way to guarantee a charm that's useful to you
and also try to somewhat countermand the genuinely insane amount of money Zenith prints, especially at high ascensions)

[surreal kiln]

rn i think they are abit too expensive

for har

more blightdust would be cool

make blightdust 32ar per again please

this doesnt benefit me at all

[flint trellis]

surely

[quaint flicker]

Omw to spend like 8har per candle just to roll 20 phantom force vex duration charms in a row

Idk maybe some people use them i personally never have and probably never will with current price

In tree rolling is cool but money wise it isnt really better when every tree has 20 different bloat stats you can still roll

From an ironman perspective its probably more useful

[left phoenix]

from ironman it's about the right cost maybe
you still need 15 cp, upgrades and other stuff
won't really have spare bdust until 15cp which is quite a long way
otherwise the rate of getting 32 bdust is probably slightly higher than the rate of getting leg mogs, considering you might potentially use 2 with a epic->leg mog and a leg+leg mog sometimes

it's too expensive if you do it for epic or below that's for sure

[surreal kiln]

Wouldn’t on Ironman u go for like 14cp

For a while Atleast

[left phoenix]

yeah im on 14cp for a while now
probably will save up for 15cp and then go for asc 13+ or sth

[surreal kiln]

What asc have you been doing

[left phoenix]

up to 12

[surreal kiln]

What class you playing do u have like a updated like chart of your progress I remember you made one before

[left phoenix]

the most recent one is when I beat a12 the first time I think
mainly flame/steel but currently getting shadow wind and frost too
good thing with ironman is that you get good charms from all trees

[surreal kiln]

That’s a realy nice steel legendary charm

[delicate timber]

its cool how far you can get without ever buying charms, I was also sudo ironman for a long time; only buying charms when I wanted to min max a15

now i'm malding over missing orange stat, if only I could go back 😔

[left phoenix]

you do get good charms as ironman, just that they might not have synergy together
you can get good charms that you can't run together

[surreal kiln]

Do u plan on upgrading any of your charms with gems

[delicate timber]

finding passable charms is possible though. Like what you have there with that volley cd charm

[left phoenix]

oh yeah that epic one is upgraded

[delicate timber]

sure its not a good charm, but it gives what you need and thats what matters

[surreal kiln]

That’s a very very good charm

[delicate timber]

ironman is op for rolling charms wth

[surreal kiln]

It’s so cool that you are proving you don’t neeed the market for zenith

Its also not like your set is at all terrible

[delicate timber]

ya people really under estimate how far you can go if you just try

[left phoenix]

it's ok
I can't really stack like 3 skills to max
but I have backups to swap to whenever
like a 10cp worth of rf charms

[delicate timber]

especially since if you play without market for a while, you will get enough har to buy charms later if you want.

[surreal kiln]

Yeah how much raw har has zenith made you

[left phoenix]

idk if you don't buy charms you don't really care about money

I have like 200har i think currently
but I already have like 130 before cz even launched

[delicate timber]

I genuinely do not know. I'm going to make a rough estimate of 150 wins on high A and with each giving 4.5 so that is 675 har

[surreal kiln]

Do you also have any realy op charms for a class u never play like shadow or wind or frost

[left phoenix]

I think a a10 gives you like 2.5 har raw
people run rigged at times too

[delicate timber]

oh ya I forgot to subtract key costs

so its 560

[left phoenix]

some cool ones I think
it's just sometimes you don't get the full set of it, only singular good ones

[delicate timber]

the 12.9% ava cooldown 💔

Its so cursed how thats possible (the charm itself is fine, just a bit unlucky rolls)

[jolly ibex]

The root duration tax

[lucid anvil]

I never understood Ironman, I have like 500 cz clears and have like 10 decent charms to show

Without buying charms idk how I’d do it

[arctic sierra]

I understand it very well. It’s not like any of the storyline was hard to follow and Tony is a great character.

[left phoenix]

there's a reason people buy charms and a reason people don't play ironman, it's not easy it's gonna suck you're getting like 5 decent charm in like 100 runs and they can very much be different trees

it's a challenge of how you utilize suboptimal resources and the ability to find a way out
you also care more about what charm you're actually getting and how the kitchen sinks have a chance to be used
also to master cz not by having god tier charms, but by room knowledge and routing

[molten sand]

in other words

adapt

[left phoenix]

yeah
if you find adapting fun
i certainly do

[lucid anvil]

Hardcore Ironman 😔

[coarse quartz]

Current system is demanding ig but I think it's quite good

Like you need a team to play and share charms around which I mean it's beneficial to have a 4 man tram for the entire team

It's also demanding in time (?) Saying this quite skeptically cause my and others personal tracking has shown that in at least 3 hours of playtime you can assemble a decent charm build

[left phoenix]

You can get a starter set pretty fast that takes you up to like a5-7
But then it slows down quite a bit
you can’t do high ascensions for loot so the grind is even slower

[red wyvern]

is there Crushing Earth Cone Angle?

[amber sand]

no, only range afaik

[lucid anvil]

Just get carried 🤝

[maiden flare]

🔥

[mild oar]

[coarse quartz]

Y'know, after too much Wynncraft, I think curses getting a cool mechanical rework similar to gambits would be a massive improvement. I've seen such a divide on curses, with people saying they are horrible, some people (me) enjoying them, and others who are unbothered and just pick the easiest ones. I think if curses were picked in the starting room all at once the runs would be a lot more fun overall, maybe even outside the dungeon in the lobby somehow'. Most games take this approach in the first place with other systems similar to curses, think Hades, where you pick them before you even "begin" the run.

Let the player decide their curses in some way that is less forgiving imo, I dislike the fact that you can pretty easily avoid getting any true downsides. That said, look to improve a lot of the curses to make them feel more like delve modifiers instead of straight up enchantment curses. Maybe just let the player pick from a pool of 2 instead of 3 curses to force them out of their comfort zone.

The biggest changes with a system like this would be just like Wynncraft gambits though. You would be allowed to not select any number of curses if you don't want to, and recieve no downside to doing so. On the other hand, selecting curses will reward you with better loot.

I think this system is a lot more inuitive for the player. If you're in the mood to make the game much harder for higher reward, then you can. If you just want to have a chill, fun run, with still meaningful rewards, you can opt out. Or if you hate curses in general, you can just not pick them!

Of course this means curses can't really be an ascension level anymore, but I think it would be cool to implement them across all of zenith.

[quaint flicker]

"You would be allowed to not select any number of curses if you don't want to, and recieve no downside to doing so. On the other hand, selecting curses will reward you with better loot. "

a15 vs a18

Forcing more diversity in curse picks is good on paper but a lot of curses are despised, straying from being harder to just anti-fun. So I definitely think the current 3 pick system is needed without a rework to curses. The second half though is literally just pick a15 instead of a16/18

I think in a broader scope though it would be cool to treat the ascension modifers more like optional delve mods where you can choose the restrictions that you want to play. This would def require rebalancing of a lot of mods though since you could just exclude specific debuffs to min max easy but high loot runs.

[delicate timber]

there needs to be far more curses so your not getting runs where the game offers you 3, insta lose curses and then rerolls into 3 more unpickable curses

I also still dislike curses like Anchoring that just remove game mechanics. Sure its more difficult that way; but its not fun to just lose an entire abitily slot in a dungeon who's whole point is having 100 abilities in it to use.

[coarse quartz]

Yeah that's why I said they would need to improve a lot of the curses

[coarse quartz]

Well the idea is to make it so you can understand your run before it starts. You wouldn't have to worry about a random curse later and could instead know what you have to play around. Allows for more adaptability.

[red wyvern]

p funny if you had a sustainability oriented setup going into F3 and your choices are the anemia or antiheal curses and then a third completely unpickable curse

[lucid anvil]

Sloth is literally a 0 pick

[delicate timber]

sloth wouldn't be so bad if the game did not have boss fights that demand a lot of speed. Sloth is acutally hard programmed to soul link you to your shadow in the vesperdays fight; which just kills 2 players.

[red wyvern]

Zenith bosses heavily favor speed, Brood extremely so

Vesp is kinda manageable and Callicarpa is a DPS check over speed

[delicate timber]

vesps floor attacks move faster then the sloth player can dodge

you just get hit by at least 1 of them every time once he starts speeding up that attack lol

[red wyvern]

I mean you can react to the first wave and place yourself correctly

[delicate timber]

Sloth is probably only pickable on earth since you can just survive; but you would still need a movement spell to avoid soul link from being a problem.

its not an instant game over for frost, since you can slide on the ice so move faster then your sloth speed; but it will still screw you in the boss fights so you can't take it unless you don't have another choice.

[lucid anvil]

I would never pick it on frost

[flint trellis]

Zenith bosses favor two things: speed and hella damage

[lucid anvil]

I’ve never picked it before and I never will

[flint trellis]

if you have effective health in a Zenith boss fight: no. no, you don't

this is a residual issue from Depths, too, just that the Depths don't scale as harshly, as fast, as the Zenith (at least in my experience)

[lucid anvil]

You basically screw yourself over

[delicate timber]

I'll take it if the other 2 choices are anchoring (no swap) and lust (no damage)

lust got buffed to not reduce your damage to 0 but its still way to harsh

[quaint flicker]

sloth is only reasonable in vesp which is more about micro dodging, in clear its just anti fun for any class, in calli it effectively does nothing (except make flower power undodgable if it goes off), and in brood its way too impactful

but even in vesp the boss teleports so often that it just doesnt feel good to play rather than just making the fight much harder

[delicate timber]

EHP is pretty good in cz; you are able to tank attacks like flower power with bulky armor sets.

[flint trellis]

or I can avoid takin' Flower Power damage in the first place with sufficient speed

[delicate timber]

earth can also live everything expect maybe dash (it might acutally be able to live a18 dash, i'll have to test it again myself once I finish my set)

[flint trellis]

which also lets me not get fucked by bramble in higher ascensions where everybody gets targeted by it

I think

my knowledge of anything past a8 is spottier than I'd like it to be because I'm not conformant enough to the meta to play high ascensions
so if I'm wrong on high asc changes please correct me

[lucid anvil]

Lust is an insta pick for me

[quaint flicker]

in a15+ it targets everyone but it also never despawns so you have to block it by placing blocks or going behind a pillar

[flint trellis]

incredible

[delicate timber]

its also normal to use an item like Boquet of gold to take less damage from broodmother's laser beams and to hold during all of the scripted spells in that fight

yes you need a 300 har item to play broodmother optimally, its really dumb!

[flint trellis]

bruh sound effect 2

[quaint flicker]

i use tnorth and def think its way better for the anti-pull the kbr gives

[flint trellis]

me when I just hold my funny scissors and get.....mostly the same buff

and also chunganium KBR

[delicate timber]

anniys has the same DR and is a workable budget alternative, but it is objectively worse (since you can just use both Boquet and anniys at the same time if you want stasis)

[delicate timber]

thats fair for shadow, I can see why you would want to avoid getting knocked around when your near the front of broodmother.

[flint trellis]

now that I'm certain KBR actually does something and isn't a cosmetic stat I'm actually considerin' puttin' Unyielding on my Truest instead of Pennate

[delicate timber]

its still cosmetic if you don't have level 10 KBR

[flint trellis]

so that it gets me to 10 KBR even while not playin' Warrior (or while in Depths/Zenith, which has no KBR boosts to speak of)

[flint trellis]

it's more like the problem Quake suffers from, actually
where it only becomes noticeable at sufficiently high amounts

[delicate timber]

also tank set lets you take aggro from the hoglin to help your shadow

[flint trellis]

I can already do that without a tank set

[delicate timber]

which is better then just afking when you have no abitlies

which happens in like 1/4 runs

[flint trellis]

I just repeatedly Wrench crit the hoglin so it gets mad at me instead of the local DPS

and cast Dawn abilities whenever possible (read: Radiant Blessing my beloved) to let my teammates do good shit while I keep the hoglin entertained

"Thomas why do you play melee Dawn"
I refuse to spend 500+ HAR on mid-level Shadow charms to be a meaningful contribution to my team as a DPS of any kind (my set is not as good for Shadow as a lot of people insist, I get shit results whenever I do try to get more damage-oriented skills and be the local DPS) and I don't have a functional enough set to be a meaningful contribution to said team as any other tree

I have decent Dawn charms and good knowledge of how Dawn abilities interact with and buff up my teammates

I'd like to think that's enough to at least be a decent contribution to my team as a support

[delicate timber]

just buy any shadow charms, you would be surprised what you can find in the mog barrels

like sure its great to max a stat only using 3 charms, but its not unreasonable to use 5 charms if thats the best you can do

[jolly ibex]

wtf I thought every tree now cost less than 500har

except flame

[delicate timber]

depends on what you consider good to be. You can certainly buy functional charms for every class for less then 300 har

[molten sand]

it depends yeah

[delicate timber]

if you want to be orange then i'm afraid the only class that is cheaper then 500 har is earthbound

acutally dawn might be 500 har to max now, that its been so badly nerfed

previously I was doing fine on a15 with a budget of just 90 har spent on charms; although i've gone far past that now.

[flint trellis]

absolute state of my current charms

so many stats that just do not matter 💀

[delicate timber]

back when all I needed was just avalanche damage + avalanche cool down, now I gotta buy these "snowstorm" charms 😤

[delicate timber]

invest in more total charm power so you can squeeze in "worse" charms. That will make you more powerful for less cash then buying charms with lower charm power.

[molten sand]

I would say 15 cp is probably the most important thing you can do

though it has become insanely expensive now

[delicate timber]

people will say that 2 charm power, for 1 stat is bad. They are right, but that 2 star for 1 stat charm is still functional and can get the job done

and people will just throw those 2 charm power for 1 stat charms into the mog barrels where you can buy them for like 8 har

[flint trellis]

I would if not for two main things

1. I don't run Zenith enough to have anywhere near enough Blightdust to do this given my current charm power is 12

b) Blightdust has surged upwards in price thanks to new renewable sinks for it --- and while this is a good thing overall, it does make just buyin' away my problem here a lot harder

the fact I have numerous items I still want to finish delve infusin', and thus need a bunch of Blightdust each to max out, does not help matters

I really should play more Zenith so that I can actually gather up the Blightdust I need to finish out my delve infusions and start investin' towards max Zenith charm power

[delicate timber]

use geodes for infusing they are cheaper now!

[flint trellis]

how cheap is "cheaper"

(you've also indirectly reminded me I still need A Second Fucking Annilys™️ and pretty much all the Shifting discs for Soulsinger
so that's gonna be a heavy blow to my wallet whenever I get around to it)

[delicate timber]

geodes not only cost less then blightdust but you need less geodes to infuse then you need blightdust (its 2 geodes for a level 1 infusion, but 3 blightdust and that price difference only scales)

[flint trellis]

that is quite easily verifiably false

[fallow plume]

blightdust and geodes are the same amount needed

[jolly ibex]

[delicate timber]

WHAT I have infused 100 items and I thought this entire time that blightdust costed more. I'm the living embodiment of "monumenta players cant read"

[flint trellis]

comedy

[coarse quartz]

it does despawn just very long time

[surreal kiln]

Tnorth has 10kbr

[maiden flare]

LMAOO

[wraith veldt]

if you need the XP levels, the IRS has your back 🙂