#Celestial Zenith Feedback Thread

1 messages · Page 5 of 1

coarse quartz
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u have seen me kill elites+dreads with grav bomb or get a magus with rf or get brood weakpoints

rough umbra
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and for bosses the shadow is doing infinitely more when its on

rough umbra
coarse quartz
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i only hopped on this train since yesterday

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cuz that run yesterday was wild i felt like a caster

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HYPER do a run rn and ill put on that

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baller mindset

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and show you gravity bomb

rough umbra
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you have a sample size n=1

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i know it can hold its own but genuinely all i see you and the other one doing is getting near one shot while having identical clear power to a caster

coarse quartz
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the other one

coarse quartz
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its identical to a caster + it has RF

rough umbra
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i never see rf do anything in boss your 2.4k damage ass is not believable unless you get real lucky

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bumky can second that

coarse quartz
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it is very believeable

rough umbra
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then where the fuck is it

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ever

coarse quartz
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i dont know how u dont see my rf do nothing

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like i just dont understand

molten sand
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bros

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who cares

rough umbra
coarse quartz
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bros

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its zenith discussion thread

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let us discuss and argue the zenith meta

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ANYWAY on my mamas LIFE steel cooks asf asf

rough umbra
coarse quartz
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cuz i suck

rough umbra
coarse quartz
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also

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everyone dies

rough umbra
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its damage requirement is strictly higher to get the effect

coarse quartz
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its just that one run ummm i died 3 times in one room cuz idk

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i felt cute

quaint flicker
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shadow is just better in all bosses its not even close, if anything vesp is the closest cause of the low damage cap

coarse quartz
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its quicker probs

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i found myself the safest on steel

rough umbra
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you keep dying

coarse quartz
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ok

rough umbra
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i dont want people to continue the manmonke stereotype like this but you just KEEP DYING

teal plank
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@rough umbra join a18

rough umbra
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i need a good few runs where you are alive

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to believe this effect

coarse quartz
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let me join i will prove myself i cant let this slander SLIDE

teal plank
rough umbra
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yeah let him join

dusk bay
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Yeah I sure did a whole lot of nothing that fight as the shadow

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Manmonke isn't really exaggerating ngl I got deep fried in total value contributed to the entire Zenith attempt

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I was borrowing bumky's charms too so me being illequipped isn't the strongest argument

rough umbra
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n=1

teal plank
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@rough umbra manmonke the goat ong

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also join and replace raikiy bc hes going

rough umbra
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i know i was so wrong

teal plank
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we got cooked at 1% hp

coarse quartz
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dude

teal plank
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😭

coarse quartz
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i literally solo'd vesp

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ez clap

teal plank
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manmonke

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get hypeace otz join

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so we r full

coarse quartz
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DISCLAIMER: Any old ability is what it is now in trigger. (Ex; Metalmancy Icon is Gravity Bomb, Slipstream is Aeroblast). Things ARE ordered in tier btw.
is this cooking

image.png
hollow wagon
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based enlightenment SS tier

surreal kiln
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or thinfs

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rejuv is not ss

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taunt is a now since nerf

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no way ewuake is above apoc

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and nov

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a

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crushing earth is basically impossible to use

quaint flicker
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taunt still s just not that crazy anymore

surreal kiln
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ward of light is way better then wors abil

quaint flicker
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only a tier thing about it is its a cloak block (and makes surviving with no clear like 2x harder, 4x compared to having cloak)

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but dps is like 2 passives

surreal kiln
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lemme make some ajustments

ornate quest
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did taunt get changed

surreal kiln
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yeah

quaint flicker
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charms got changed to %

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no more 150 base

surreal kiln
coarse quartz
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Volley in b is deranged

quaint flicker
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volley without sharpshooter is c with sharpshooter its easy a

coarse quartz
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Nah bro

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I'd rather take dummy decoy

quaint flicker
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ive killed elites+dreads using enigma volley with like legendary volley and split arrow/sharpshooter, doesnt even need to be charmed cause they do nothing anyway so basically free aoe

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doesnt have competition for trad steel ability slots either so its like the most free ability in the game

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maybe raw power its too dependent on passives/rarity to be a tier but cause its a no charm req no ability competition ability its pretty 🔥

coarse quartz
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My volley

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Just doesn't kill ANYTHING

quaint flicker
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reverb just goes hard in big groups

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kill a bunch of normal mobs/the base elite with it and everything else dies

fallow plume
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chat ill be honest i think you should still be able to get envy on f2

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by that point you can have a decent amount of abils from ur main tree so its not completely over

glacial sun
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I think I would rather come up with a way to nerf it but make it f1 only

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well

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it is actually F1 only but if you pick your curse immediately as callicarpa dies you are still considered to be F1 so you get f1-only curses

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so it's a bug

fallow plume
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idk how it can be nerfed without still having the same issue - if you just make it keep your talisman tree but swap the rest itll just be a buff half of the time

left phoenix
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What if it just unlocks all trees instead lul
Unironically a curse

glacial sun
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I had two ideas

  • a buff that could partially make up for your build/charms being messed up (recharge rate or damage or something)
  • something that is related to a possibly upcoming system
fallow plume
teal plank
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i aint know what half of these are

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like wtf is this

image.png
left phoenix
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maybe change the background to white or sth
that will be better
idk if the website can do that though edit: you can

hallow sphinx
left phoenix
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it is split arrow yeah

teal plank
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rise up my non rp users

half wasp
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curse of envy is super fun if you get it later in the run (f2/f3)

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honestly more of a blessing than a curse

teal plank
left phoenix
teal plank
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I did not tell u to not use rp i told my homie fasty to hook me up w an rp less tierlist

half wasp
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i just realized it's f1 only and you can only get it in f2 due to a glitch

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yeah it's pretty bad if it gets fixed then

teal plank
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Ruin is also supposed to be f1 apperently

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But u can get it f2/f3

coarse quartz
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I'm gonna suggest this here but;

Thundercloud Form should be split into two charges. Look at gravity bomb, look at avalanche, big hit attacks have to be in multiple hits to work, as there is a dread after the elite, maybe there is carapace, etc. It is just essential to have multiple instances of damage on a large damage attack in Zenith. Meteor gets away with it cause flame has a variety of abilities to use. JUST MAKE THUNDERCLOUD SPLIT INTO 2 CHARGES!!!!

surreal kiln
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Make gbolt sled cast

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Elf

coarse quartz
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that is so boring

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thoo

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i always said it

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and then i realized how boring it is

surreal kiln
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Wind becomes a real class then

coarse quartz
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just let them cook

surreal kiln
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What trigger do they have to took?

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Cook

coarse quartz
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they said they are putting stuff on

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gbolt

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like iron grip

left phoenix
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Erm acktually 🤓
Take off damage

quaint flicker
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does anyone know if lust is 0% or max% damage reduction if you are solo?

lucid anvil
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I would assume it should be 0%? But like probably max if solo

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If I’m thinking about how it’s coded

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Unless they have a check for no other players which I doubt since I didn’t set it mentioned

quaint flicker
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with new chronology modifier it would be cool if a skill like divine beam or maybe ward of light got changed to an aoe lighting mechanic, like maybe a frost nova but with glowstone/torches on the floor, or just makes the player emit spawner damping light or something

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mostly divine beam that thing is useless

quaint flicker
glacial sun
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light level itself doesn't actually affect spawners but it might be neat if some dawn ability placed torches on them

jolly ibex
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  • 2 torch amount
    Charm stats
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Real

glacial sun
red wyvern
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Thundercloud Form has use beyond the damage, it doesn't need to be a nuclear bomb

cloud laurel
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fly hax

red wyvern
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I do think the AoE partial damage should be buffed but a second charge sounds beyond overpowered

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minimum 8s on demand flight with two fuck off beam attacks tied to it

cloud laurel
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yeah but I could see thundercloud being used for escaping lava if that even is a big problem

glacial sun
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also the demand for multihits is more of a delve problem than a depths problem even if we have kind of done bandaid fixes before

red wyvern
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me when I am being pressured by Vesp with my lifeline down so I just camp offstage

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TCloud form does fine in Depths, Zenith has so many more mobs

rough umbra
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bandaid is bandaid

red wyvern
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2 charge TCloud in Vesp is like 1 charge fly up and floor loom then wait it out and use 2nd charge and floor loom again

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maybe squeeze out some bridge modes

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mountain dew to maybe stuff in a 3rd use

rough umbra
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harambe there is literally a clip of you dying in cryobox to voiding out while standing

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wouldnt be as shrimple as first proposed but obviously if stats are kept as they are now theres a problem, not that multiple charges is a good idea anyways

red wyvern
rough umbra
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yeah but it shows the void out anticheese for building

red wyvern
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true however isn't it active far up

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what stops me from maintaining arena Y level

rough umbra
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yeah but at that rate oh no skyhook vesp cheese !!!

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noone actually follows through with that when that high because it doesnt do anything

red wyvern
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me back on my bullshit (I am spectating my own A18 Vesp clear)

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assuming floor loom decays after 3 seconds, you can sit offstage and avoid all the arenabound attacks for roughly 20 seconds

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with Dew and Last Breath as the lifeline that you're waiting on you spend about half of your no lifeline time somewhat out of danger

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it's a neat concept but Zenith punishes you for not taking the "you obliterate the population of a small country" route

rough umbra
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yeah but losing that teammate in later ascensions is usually an active detriment

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i have never seen someone do this with skyhook let alone 21.5s ult

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you can already avoid most threats by just building 3 blocks constantly anyways

fallow plume
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Oh yeah was enlightenment charm cap being reduced to 50% intended? Seems like a weird thing to change

mild oar
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high asc brood web keep ignoring so many ll like cryobox, horse

quaint flicker
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Cryobox doesnt block any hits

coarse quartz
mild oar
quaint flicker
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in brood it works the same way but doesnt spawn ice

empty sentinel
jolly ibex
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:clueless:

coarse quartz
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what if crybox "froze" your health bar for a little bit upon proccing?

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also known as iframes

molten sand
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So like stasis but without the stasis?

coarse quartz
rough umbra
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with noone recognizing that the lack of a blanked hit is not a thing that can be played around

coarse quartz
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That's true

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I forgot about that

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My check list is blank a hit and maybe rework it into some prismatic u stuff where it gives u dmg upon proccing idk

rough umbra
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just blanked hit would make it usable

coarse quartz
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Mmmm

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Sure I guess

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I don't think it's that cool still personally

rough umbra
red wyvern
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Cryobox versus Steel Stallion is still so funny

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neither truly blank the activating hit

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instead one gives you like 16 health and entombs you while the other gives 130 health and increases environmental traversal for 20s

rough umbra
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yeah at least the honse for all intents and purposes will blank the hit

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it truly makes a lot of sense

red wyvern
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old Last Breath is still funny

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every 60s you autodrink Dew when you take damage instead of having any lifeline at all

quaint flicker
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and current cryobox is still worse than that 🥶

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me when my lifeline doesnt save my life and if i survive it makes sure i die by trapping me in an eldrask phase

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would be so much more usable if it didnt just box you in a coffin

teal plank
quaint flicker
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by the way and maybe this is intentional but phantom force is awful. even spawner rushing in damage stack gear you rarely kill any mobs and since it isnt aoe it doesnt even serve as a good carapace remover (this is with max damage charms)

definitely needs to be multi-hit or explode with aoe damage, right now even as melee i would rather take flame spirit/whirlwind/sundrops

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understandable that a spawner break shouldnt have a crazy impact but as it is it really just is a filler rng debuff stat

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like honestly if it just exploded with even lower damage (or no damage and just have it be an aoe weakness debuff) than it currently is that would be fine since it would at least remove carapace which sucks for shadows purely single tick damage

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^ this is from a high asc perspective but ignoring the 4 actives limit, purely about how effective/impactful it is

glacial sun
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I wouldn't want to change it purely for carapace since thats eventually™️ going to be cut hopefully

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Spawner breaks are weird to balance and they shouldn't do too much but I thought it was in a decent spot/had a decent niche already? None of the other non-utility ones also follow the player around which alongside silence/being melee damage is the main gimmick of it

quaint flicker
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when ive tried to use it the vexes mostly just get wasted immediately on random normal mobs, maybe if it targetted elites (maybe with a vulnerability effect) or you had more control over when they attack it could be more useful?

red wyvern
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Phantom Force is gas in Depths

dusk bay
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Seconding big appreciation for Phantom Force in depths, though the 3->2 summon nerf is quite unfortunate

coarse quartz
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phantom force is ALSO gas in zenith idk what oracore is cooking

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"random normal mobs" also happen to be mobs u have to kill and the vexes do pretty good chip dmg on any tree so i think its great

shy ibex
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the weaken effect sounds pretty good too

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would be nice if it had a better aggro system

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sometimes it just goes for the most random mob at the other side of the room

quaint flicker
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the weaken might matter if it targetted elites not a normal mob that you kill immeditately

coarse quartz
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it doesnt need to kill them

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its just nice chip dmg

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also kb's mobs which can be surprisingly useful

quaint flicker
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yeah 10% of the health on 1 mob (takes both vexes, one to break the carapace) out of 6x legionary non-elite mob spawns that you overkill anyway is very helpful chip damage

coarse quartz
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idk i go off them feels and when i pick phantom force or anyone in my party has it i can for sure notice

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its the best spawner break besides whirlwind probs

quaint flicker
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guarentee its placebo

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i charmed it and wore dps stack damage% it does nothing

coarse quartz
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maybe seems good to me

quaint flicker
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and i imagine it has the same issue in deep edd, carapace makes it already 50% useless and the ehp scaling will make the chip damage (which is on 1 mob) entirely insignificant

dusk bay
# quaint flicker and i imagine it has the same issue in deep edd, carapace makes it already 50% u...

I have witnessed the opposite- the absence of charms makes the skill much more effective in the hard version of the content (high floors vs high ascension), the lack of attack damage required means it's generally equally as strong for all players instead of losing a reasonably high multiplier to universal damage scaling, and far less aggressive health scaling (Zenith mobs demanding significantly buffed skills to consistently one shot mobs vs reasonable health values especially on F1-2) makes the skill hold its own well

dusk bay
quaint flicker
# dusk bay I have witnessed the opposite- the absence of charms makes the skill much more e...

so going purely off of 1:1 numbers comparisons in a high 200s (maybe 300?) floor normal edd mobs had ~110 hp, compared to a f1 a18 zenith with mobs at around ~130 hp (or dreadlings: 63.3 vs 106.8)

i had maxed damage phantom force + maxed advancing in floor 1 (similar to legendary phantom force, and advancing+damage stack gear instead of tanky steelsage gear makes the difference realistically way higher than in edd), and i am almost completely sure that even when I tried spawner rushing to stack vexes it did not manage to kill a single mob (and in normal clear it did not help, they all target 1 mob which rarely makes a difference in hitting thresholds, and even if it did its 1 threshold out of 4+ mobs)

TLDR: my stats wouldve been doing MORE damage to mobs with nearly identical health, and the vexes still had no real impact

basically, there is literally no way it is effective in deep edd, idk what you witnessed but unless you have a clip of it magically actually doing something despite massive lack of buffs you are just wrong about this

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also this: "the lack of attack damage required means it's generally equally as strong for all players instead of losing a reasonably high multiplier to universal damage scaling" means nothing, no high damage is required in zenith its just prefered because theres a revive system and higher damage is (usually) faster

and more importantly you still lose out on a massive amount of damage, if it sucks equally for everyone it still sucks

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now its just a spawner break so i dont mind if it stays bad or changes completely, but saying it holds up in high delved content is just not true

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like its just a massively worse version of flame spirit, you lose out on aoe multi-hit damage for your vexes to travel 2 extra blocks before immediately hitting the very next mob spawn (bloodthirsty wouldve brought them to you anyway)

red wyvern
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I'm picking Phantom Force over Flame Spirit probably 90% of the time because of the versatility that the vexes provide over the stationary Flame Spirit

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the ability to strip Carapaces, chip down healthy enemies, their knockback is significant, and the debuffing power is much appreciated

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they also carry the capacity to kill in Depths if enough of them stack up, which is quite easy to do if multiple party members run the ability

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it also rewards the process of mob kill > clear spawner whereas Flame Spirit rewards breaking the spawner before clearing mobs which can cause a slew of issues for you or even your party in Depths

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when the ability was 3 Vexes per spawner, the ability is observed significantly damaging the F1 Twisted Miniboss singlehandedly (roughly 50% of its health after the area nearby was cleared out)

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not the strongest testament I admit but the minibosses can consistently tank half bursts from Shadow players before dying

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for an ability that I do not need to make any commitments to (maybe selecting it as Twisted to buff the vex quantity), it is extraordinarily effective

quaint flicker
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  • carapace(s) is generous, there are two vexes that often target the same mob
  • they arent stacking up with legionary, you mine one or two spawners and then activate another 10 mobs from more grouped spawners, those 4 vexes probably wont even kill 1 mob, at best they strip 4 carapaces
  • bloodthirsty brings mobs to you, legionary can pressure you backwards if you spawn too many mobs flame spirit is not only useful for spawner rush

like theres more i could say but its just objectively bad, there isnt really anything to argue here

yes its a spawner break which requires 0 commitment which like I said is why its not a very big balancing issue, but it really is objectively an underwhelming spawner break. compare numbers or watch it do its thing on its own (not with random spells hitting mobs and giving you placebo) and you can very easily see it virtually does nothing and is by no means worth a twisted room upgrade outside of having no other picks

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if you wanna record a clip of it "carry[ing] the capacity to kill in Depths" by all means i will take back everything ive said, but that wont happen because 2 low damage single hit vexes do not have the ability to back up such a massive claim

quaint flicker
red wyvern
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Why would I be depending on a supplement to my clear power to singlehandedly clear in Depths. Why am I also depending on a spawnerbreak to correct my mispositioning that lead to too many mobs spawning in.

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if I engage a spawner and there are 4 mobs, all being carapaces, the Vexes remove the necessity to strip a Carapace and I can immediately contribute to the clear by oneshotting the first mob and Brutalize stripping the other 3

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the Vex also deals "true" knockback so my engagement against the targetted mob is free of the risk of hit trading or jumpblanking

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Spawnerbreaks very consistently come up after the engagement is cleared, Phantom Force provides bleedover value that keeps the pace high and control of the field more into my team's hands

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Precision Strike (not perceived to be effective enough to use as a focal skill) and Permafrost (Twisted has an unrelated passive that helps Frost in general) are the only two others that provide bleedover value that competes with Phantom Force

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Sundrops is neat too but is inconsistent without a multiple player commitment to the spawnerbreak (admittedly pretty easy commitment to make pre Phantom Force)

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Legendary (not Twisted) Phantom Force in particular was able to put out nearly 50 damage Vexes with Vigor 25 and Bark of the Gateway Tree as my only gear damage

quaint flicker
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im not going to repeat myself for the 3x, you are wrong for the many many reasons i have said (and from practical real actual gameplay, not theoretical and arbitrary comparisons)

no one said anything about using it to singlehandedly clear except for you claiming that it was able to do such an absurd thing, it just needs to do something (stripping 1 carapace from a single mob is not doing something)

its not literally doing nothing, breaking 1 carapace is something, but breaking 1 carapace is not something worth an entire ability slot

"Precision Strike (not perceived to be effective enough to use as a focal skill)" literally phantom force right now, its the precision strike of shadow

red wyvern
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50 damage is enough to lower thresholds on a vast majority of the healthier basics in the game

empty sentinel
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Phantom Force was designed to just be a very solid no-nonsense helper and I think it is doing that very well

quaint flicker
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definitely not very well, but sure it is a spawner break of all time

quaint flicker
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like you can kill 1 dreadling with it, stellar ability

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i think just making it target elites and/or focusing more on the weakness aspect of it (buffing its damage/aoe could be problematic) is a very straightforward buff to it that does not deserve to be this controversial

hollow wagon
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This user's mind is SET, they will NOT change their mind, arguing is USELESS

quaint flicker
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yeah man, cause ive not argued at all or made any valid points

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people spounting misleading and exageratted stories about their phantom force usage is not something that will convice me to change my mind about it, ive said "if you wanna record a clip of [misleading/exaggerated claim] by all means i will take back everything ive said"

hollow wagon
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So have the other people talking here, but you're the only one saying im not going to repeat myself for the 3x, you are wrong for the many many reasons i have said as if you have the objective truth and the others are lying to themselves and everything they have brought up is entirely wrong

quaint flicker
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user said "3 vexes did 50% of [a twisteds] health" and then went on to say that they do less than 50 damage each

hollow wagon
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You can't just say something is misleading because you disagree with them 😂

red wyvern
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the point being made is that they provided impressive chip when the enemy in play was paid zero attention or mind

quaint flicker
red wyvern
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If you keep the pace up, the Vexes can easily pack up and supplement your engagements in very large numbers

hollow wagon
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And as it turns out it's only not true/exxagerated because you didn't read/understand what they said jebaited

quaint flicker
red wyvern
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me when I misunderstand the statement

quaint flicker
red wyvern
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when I say "I cleared out a part of the room" that means I have broken multiple spawners at that point

quaint flicker
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by quoting you

red wyvern
red wyvern
hollow wagon
red wyvern
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the statement with "3 Vexes" was to add the context that this was prenerf

coarse quartz
quaint flicker
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ok how does this make it a good ability, no one is clearing out everything except specifically the twisted and then mining every spawner just to not even kill it

coarse quartz
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it is exactly that, you pick it and get decent value from it no matter what

hollow wagon
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Which is to say that when there’s a mob that is not agro’d then the vexes spawned from the ability after a fight can go towards them and deal a sizeable chunk of their health before you actually get to fighting them head on. They could also go towards the next engagement allowing you to keep up the pace with either carapaces broken, or damage + debuffs given to help out

quaint flicker
coarse quartz
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but that just feels

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objectively wrong

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vexes were doing like 30 per for me in my steel set

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granted it was like legendary with universal multipliers but still

red wyvern
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if the vexes stack up and I have to slow my pace just a little, suddenly they erase an Ember and a Malediction for me

quaint flicker
coarse quartz
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fr when they stack up it is very funny, cool looking, and is good

red wyvern
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I don't see any other spawner break do that

quaint flicker
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thats like 4 hits

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4 vexes for a single mob (5 cause carapace)

coarse quartz
coarse quartz
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what do u want from it??

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do we have to buff flame spirit now to kill mobs instantly?

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its a spawner break

red wyvern
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Flame Spirit is also chip damage so I don't understand how its value is so much higher

quaint flicker
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no cause flame spirit is phantom force but its aoe and hits multiple times and is actually useful

red wyvern
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Flame Spirit cannot move or debuff or knockback enemies

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consequently, lack of movement also means lack of stacking barring stacked spawners

coarse quartz
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🤔 off topic but nicknon was talking about AS rework, what if we replaced it with some melee spell skill that is multi-hit (maybe slashes?) and gives % attack speed when you hit mobs

red wyvern
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ADHDmonke

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Wynncraft Assassin Multihit pepega

coarse quartz
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i had the idea and i didnt wanna lose it granted its such a simple idea

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true

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the kb is

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pretty good

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like it can stagger mobs pretty easily

red wyvern
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you could do a Chroma Blade Sidearm hybrid where you get aoe swipes

coarse quartz
red wyvern
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2-3x every say 8 seconds

coarse quartz
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chroma blade would become kinda useless tho

red wyvern
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idk how to make Chroma Blade useful when Blade Flurry is in that slot

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the tree aspects are cool but ability is so long

quaint flicker
coarse quartz
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how would turning it into a castable melee spell be worse then what it is now

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with this logic flame strike is just a passive ability

red wyvern
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AS is the center of balancing issues for Zenith Shadow

quaint flicker
red wyvern
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it cannot continue to exist in its current state for Shadow's sake in Zenith

coarse quartz
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ok so what if u get % attack speed

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its just nice

quaint flicker
coarse quartz
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ok?

quaint flicker
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that is the issue with as

coarse quartz
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only if u hit the mob?

quaint flicker
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reworking for nothing

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what??

coarse quartz
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did i not make that clear

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i did not

quaint flicker
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when would you not hit the mob

coarse quartz
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thas what i meant

red wyvern
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the ability allegedly would have a cooldown

coarse quartz
quaint flicker
#

anyway i guess thats better and shadow needs more aoe

#

i would rather it keep the teleport though its the only movement on shadow

red wyvern
#

Wind Chroma Blade :^)

coarse quartz
#

idk

#

shadow needs a rework

#

🤣🤣

red wyvern
#

Depths Shadow is gas wdym

coarse quartz
#

steel

#

idk i took that whole phantom force debate off topic

#

back to it i seriously think its perfectly fine

#

classic case of shadows COMPLAINING about their viability (joke)

#

if anything look at like steels spawner break

quaint flicker
#

it just sucks, it has a niche but it accomplishes nothing because it cant be too powerful but at the same time low single target damage does not scale with delve mods

coarse quartz
#

i forgot what its called ngl

quaint flicker
#

phantom force is barely better than that because it breaks carapace, the tiny damage increase is like identical though

delicate timber
#

spawner breaks are so bad that phantom force just visually doing something makes if feel much stronger then it acutally is.

#

it just does not kill anything without melee armor and shadow cannot take its own spawner break because of the abil cap.

#

Thats the problem with spawner breaks, you cannot take your own break because of that abil cap. Even if you play in low ascensions the spawnerbreak is the most expendable slot and you will always sacrifice it over any active slot if you have too. Sundrops is the only spawner break worth using on its own tree; its also the only acutally good spawner break.

#

that said I don't think spawner breaks are in urgent need of fixing. If any slot is going to be bad it better be that one, since if spawner breaks became meta you would run into annoying situations where your teammates "steal" your spawners.

#

but I will say that if all of the spawner breaks where to disappear very little would be lost.

left phoenix
#

I think one effect of phantom force that’s not talked about much is them being small radar for mobs
They can spot hiding mobs that you might not notice and when they just stay you can know for certain that there is no mobs hiding near you

Well, pretty helpful for my playstyle at least, mining spawners is often after killing everything so it spotting hiding mobs help me not getting jump scared by the one carapace chiv vengeance superbuffed albino rat that flew to the ceiling

glacial sun
#

visual explanation for volcanic meteor change and bugfix

y = damage 100% to 0%
x = radius

black line = pre-update, uncharmed
red = post-update, uncharmed
blue = post-update, charmed
dotted = pre-update, charmed (notice the max damage radius being affected 3x more than it should be)

image-89.png
#

essentially, outside of the charm bugfix, its now more consistent and you can't get 2% damage on the edge of the radius anymore

however it was reduced by a block to compensate (so you lose 1 block where it previously was 25-0% damage)

delicate timber
#

seems like a fair change for meteor, more consistent for a bit less damage

#

but whats this, am I seeing things a frost buff!

#

not sure what the point of buffing ice breaker by ONE damage was, but ava really needed the damage it just received and i'm exited to see what snowstorm does; although I kind of wish it was piercing cold that got the axe instead of nova.

glacial sun
#

it was to standardize the values and make them less silly numbers

empty sentinel
#

Yeah 19.8% is silly when you could just write 20%

fallow plume
#

Playing with ppl who don’t get as for vesp is so painful because they have to run a marathon every time the boss tps or magus spawns

delicate timber
#

"Fixed Icebreaker not counting Vulnerability as a debuff" hold up this is like acutally really big?

#

frost is a way better side tree now, shadow can get free damage

fallow plume
#

Can earth and steel get a free damage passive too

glacial sun
#

I think you will be fine with toughness and bulwark

#

steel is the least useful utility to other trees that is true but rapid fire and stallion are pretty decent

jolly ibex
#

sidearm!

fallow plume
#

For cz lifelines don’t really matter to me, i just pick the first one I see that isn’t cryobox/saviour so I stop getting them offered

flint trellis
#

Steelsage's utility for other trees is hard carried by Steel Stallion (best lifeline)

ocean osprey
#

n ope

left phoenix
#

ig split arrow is also ok only for eyes
Sidearm has decent burst now even for other classes

jolly ibex
#

I'm welcome metoer changed that higher the floor and lower the ceiling

delicate timber
#

I'm not sure if steel/shadow abils being bad offclass is something that can be fixed. The only thing I can think off is to just add more trees that are built around melee/proj

#

earth kinda has melee damage, but it's focus is tanking so it cant take advantage of it.

summer hazel
#

Hi I want to yell at developers.
Frost was changed, Ice Barrier, Piercing Cold and Ice Combos are great, I like the fact that those offer more damage now by themself, good change towards ice being closer to fire with it's own gimmick

Frost Nova got changed.
...what?
Okay, I gave devs benefit of the doubt, maybe I was silly and eliminating frost nova as insanely good ava partner is all that needs to be done in order to stop Ice form only being good as burst damage deale- Never fucking mind they did nothing.

You reworded the skill to be fancier, added more capabilities and made it a better carapace breaker, because that's what it was, you casted Nova to break carapace and do Ice, and then Avalanche to nuke everything...you can still do that.
All this did, was made Nova itself better, while also allowing Ice to pick Curse of Inpatience (as if they weren't already) because you have to wait that second longer for Nova to spawn enough ice to still nuke everything in 10 blocks radius.

This change to Nova entails more or less nothing, nuker playstyle is still the most valid, Nova is still the best (now even BETTER than before) partner in crime for ♿ and I continue to wonder whats devs were cooking

BUT WAIT I am not just shitting, I want to offer an fix, an insanely easy and fast fix that will kill the issue, and maybe help indirectly buff potential of part of icebreaker (more dmg to debuffed enemies), Namely:
Frost Nova: Does everything the same it does now as shown on image, BUT DOES NOT PLACE ICE instead the slowness effect is like 30ish % maybe higher and lasts a bit longer

(image yoinked from spoiler-chat from nicknon so that there is reference to those who didn't touch the skill yet)

image-235-1.png
shy trellis
#

...?

summer hazel
#

(Frost is exclusively played as ♿ , so Nova + Ava combo being a nuker, you cast those, and more or less do nothing next 10 seconds for those to go off cooldown, and repeat again, that is not healthy or interesting playstyle that should be offered or even suggested to players...)

glacial sun
#

kind of avalanche issue really

#

being so one note

summer hazel
#

Yes, but when I saw Nova Change I really thought that maybe devs were ahead of me and wanted to kill the crime partner instead

#

which would be valid fix

#

but...no

left phoenix
#

The intention is never stated
They did not say killing nova ava combo is the intent

summer hazel
#

I like the new "nova" it's unique, but it's still too good for ava and will ocntinue to be used for absurdly good nuker playstyle

glacial sun
#

avalanche will probably get a change eventually because no matter what you do it's a place ice -> avalanche to delete mobs

summer hazel
#

I am also a bit confused about sidearm cooldown reduction nerf, Steel already was a pickoff class, taking care of enemies one at a time with ocasional CC and being closer to a sub dps than full damage dealer, but I don't play steel so maybe it doesn't impact sidearm too heavily

summer hazel
glacial sun
#

the sidearm change was for the charm stat which we thought did too much (3 -> 5s cdr is an entire 66% increase and especially combined with the +charge stat it was a Lot)

I think it should still be good, it's just that you have less of an uncharmed/charmed discrepancy and can't fully refresh if you hit 2/3 or 2/4 shots (assuming -30% cdr for 9.8s, you'll need to wait about a second now due to the total cdr being 8s instead of 10 in that scenario)

#

Frozen is on vacation for 10 days so ability changes are going to have to wait but I'd like to come up with an avalanche partial rework eventually that isn't as one-dimensional while still keeping its identity

I don't think it'd do all that much currently to force a lance/barrier/pcold pick by removing snowstorm ice entirely

#

Even though I get that it can be a repetitive playstyle (and maybe Snowstorm is too much of a "do everything" ability but its too early to tell)

hardy oriole
#

if all abilities place ice and one of them destroys all ice for big damage then you cannot turn the class into something that isnt a nuke class

#

if you dont like playing a nuke class then play flame 🤷

#

removing ice from nova does not fix any problem and would make it the only frost abil except for combos that doesnt place ice

summer hazel
#

Ok the last one is fair

#

But calling frost nuke class is wrong

#

And also wrong about ava, it's fine on it's own because it works in circle, ajd there just so happen to be other skill that places insane around of ice in circle, because of that those two instantly got paired

#

Doesn't justify killing nova like I suggested, it should defo keep its ice, I was wrong in that regard.
But then ava needs it's changes

summer hazel
#

someone who does not like to talk i nfeedback threads suggested to make snowstorm replace Avalanche as Swap Key ability, and to give Ice a new Shift Left click ability

#

I like the idea, but it would probably require cooldown/duration/damage changes to fit that

red wyvern
#

good change imo

empty sentinel
#

Np

glacial sun
#

I was referring to the numbers change this update to a charm stat it has but it is cool I agree

red wyvern
#

oh ok

coarse quartz
#

Yeah snow storm seems cool but still just fuel for avalanche still cuz that's how this class works

red wyvern
#

willing to try it and new DD Scythe out in DD and see where it's at there

flint trellis
#

new Y......Yx............DD util scythe rework makes it kinda crazy for Dawn, I think

red wyvern
#

respectable melee stats and improved magic% all things considered

#

probably a great meleemagic hybrid weapon

fallow plume
#

just caused 3 deaths in one floor of a18 because i started with cryobox please rework this shit

coarse quartz
#

Random thought but can we get new zenith elites

#

Nothing wrong with the current ones

#

Just want new ones

empty sentinel
#

Zenith mobs are something we’ve been thinking about quite a bit

coarse quartz
#

Yeah

#

They are getting stale Ngl not bad but just old

#

And a lot of them overlap in niches

#

New elites sure would freshen it up

#

And some rebalabcing to current ones

#

I hate the rat

empty sentinel
delicate timber
#

snow storm can also acutally be lethal to weak enemies which is a big deal for a class that is tied down so much by a single cooldown

#

its a major buff for the class that makes it control better without just bringing back the carpet bombing meta. Since they don't want to bring back avalanche nuking, I think this rework was very well done.

coarse quartz
#

It just is lethal

hardy oriole
coral saffron
teal plank
#

please nerf atleast the attackspeed/pullstrength of those fuckers it geniounely is worse than pull specters

summer hazel
#

I think overall pull strenght should be worked on,
It's hillarious that getting pulled by a mob in point blank yeets you like 5+ blocks backwards past mob, while getting hit far away is literally nothing (except malediction specter)
It's like the function of pull is for some readon reversed on dreadnaught and those star point/cz mf's

delicate timber
#

at least make the trident guys skeletons instead. Its super annoying how drowns have NO telegraphs on their trident throws; skeletons and blazes have really important telegraphs that make them much more bearable to fight.

#

if you turn around and see a trident mf who was not there before, you dont know if your play should be to imminently shield or try to kill it right away because it has no animation to show when its about to shoot.

teal plank
#

like not seeing them winding up the attack is already annoying

#

atleast with ameldiction u can tell when its going to pull

delicate timber
#

maybe you could do something else like make their eyes glow red when they are about to shoot or something, idk I just think drowned are annoying since mojang added them to the game in 5 mintues.

quaint flicker
#

it would be a massive improvement if all frost ice abilities changed to snow blocks or something, ice is extremely annoying to play on

it completely kills your momentum when it spawns and then gives you weird sliding movement for a short period before again despawning and going back to normal flooring

red wyvern
#

I really like that a lot

#

FROSTborn not ICEborn

#

if you ain't making that a suggestion then I will in a moment

quaint flicker
#

sure ill add it

red wyvern
#

W

delicate timber
quaint flicker
#

it would not be hard to just change the frozen domain block to snow (or any block) if all of the ice is going to be changed to that

mortal burrow
#

Ava is the problem

#

This new ability is nice

#

Something that justifies the class

#

But if anything make all the abilities tie into each other than being feed for Ava

#

Like what if instead frost lance shattered ice that snowstorm places

#

You have to be more tactical in where you shoot and how to position your damage

#

While also providing you with some range away from an enemy

#

Ice barrier is not just nice damage it provides you with something to block enemies or a bridge to run across

quaint flicker
#

seems like a bit of an oversight in charm rebudgetting, this charm got downgraded for being a 2 star (im guessing it had unused budget) while the 1 star went unchanged because (im guessing) the slowness couldnt be removed

would make more sense to prioritize keeping the base stats on the charm before using budget to "upgrade" the charm, in this case all it did was make the charm worse by trading stacks for slowness

HzLgBxK.png M7FOLgv.png pt1O23n.png
quaint flicker
#

it wouldve made more sense if the unused budget was used on bringing the slowness amp from -9 to 0 but not by removing the positive stacks stat in the process

empty sentinel
#

Hmmm it should be keeping every stat and then only upgrading at the very end if there’s leftover budget, so this is definitely a bug

#

Noted that down

quaint flicker
empty sentinel
quaint flicker
#

okay

delicate timber
#

am I the only one who thinks that THIS ROOM is not okay at all, or am I just malding

Screenshot_from_2024-08-09_22-18-12.png
#

the door always gets jammed even if your not speed running because the mobs live underneath it. It also has the highest mortality rate out of all of the rooms in the game from what i've seen so far.

#

its this end section, its really hard to deal with when all it takes is a single colossus to destroy the whole thing (also has a whole fields worth of tall grass to mess with shadow)

left phoenix
#

huh I don't feel that bad in this part
creepers and slimes can drop on me and that's about it
tall grass is a little too much

#

if I'm recognizing it correctly that is

delicate timber
#

its one of the new f1 elite rooms. That end section has 2 laser elites in it (one right before it starts to the right). to be fair this room is at its most annoying when you are trying to rush. I have yet to speed past it. You can't get past fast enough to prevent the door from getting jammed and this leads to somebody almost always dying because they get stuck.

left phoenix
#

ah yeah I didn't recognizing it wrong
well I have not rushed before so
normal clear it feels fine

delicate timber
#

in general a lot of the new rooms are super dangerous. Pretty much all of the new f3 rooms have deep pits that are lethal to get pulled into (and you will get pulled at some point thanks to chrono legionnaire 5 trident spam). I'm not ageist rooms being more dangerous but these new ones are mostly much harder then the old rooms which are mostly easy.

left phoenix
#

f3 ones are indeed a lot more dangerous
a lot are just elite openfire

delicate timber
#

imo the terrain is a bigger concern then the elites are. If you get pulled into a bad position in high ascension ever, you likely just die instantly because you just used your abitlies 3 seconds ago.

#

pull into pit is a much bigger concern then spawner clumps since pulls are really unpredictable but your always should be prepared to take out an elite hoard.

#

I will say that wind is really good at handling the new rooms though, because it can just fly over everything and even has fall damage immunity if its ever pulled so it wont die. Its mostly flame/frost/dawn that i'm worried about seeing pulled down.

#

or maybe the old rooms where just to easy and we had it good for to long

hardy oriole
#

that room really needs bedrocking

red wyvern
#

Zenith room quality control goes so crazy lmao how do half of these rooms even exist

#

"I think I am going to put a pitfall into an arena layout area with 8 stacked spawners here with no depth to the engagement"

#

"Maybe I can increase the range of these spawners unnecessarily so that half the room clusters up at a chokepoint and fucks up the run"

#

"OH I know, I can put a 50 block range Mothqueen spawner here with 10 obscured/suspended spawners before it that also activate at the same time and also I'll make the spawners behind the Mothqueen activate if you get to the Mothqueen spawner"

#

tbf it's hard to make in depth enemy engagement when Zenith mobs are either unacceptably powerful or laughably weak

#

can Vorpal Planewalker still do a theoretical 800 base magic damage to a target player?

fallow plume
#

its weird because every update that added rooms always had rooms that were reworked immediately because of huge flaws yet the same flaws end up being prevalent in new rooms

molten sand
#

There's a prevalence of wanting new things to be bigger and cooler and you get some insane rooms which last half an hour with 3000 spawners

#

(I am exaggerating)

shy ibex
#

this one really turns into a shitshow at the end as long as you have higher than 10 delve points

molten sand
#

The evoker spawning from 50 blocks away in the f3 elite room is not okay

fallow plume
#

both of the new elite rooms have evoker spawners that you cant realistically get to very quickly

#

like yeah whatever you can probably rf ire or thundercloud or whatever to get to them but they're still bullshit

molten sand
#

it's also crazy that the summoning meteor does damage so if you want to parkour you can get clipped and fall off and probably die

fallow plume
#

its the same issue as the f2 lava elite room had when there was a mothqueen spawner to the side with no path to it

lucid anvil
#

So silly lol

#

That one chain room is pretty bad imo

#

With a bunch of floating islands

#

Awful awful awful

molten sand
#

Doesn't help that for some reason mojang seems cool with pulling tridents dragging you for 30 blocks

lucid anvil
#

I don’t get why that can’t be changed

#

Those mobs need to be removed or reworked

molten sand
shy ibex
#

the first ever hypersonic screwdriver melee user

molten sand
#

(there's a pull guy behind me, it's not the elite)

shy ibex
#

(i agree its horribly bullshit lol)

molten sand
shy ibex
#

its even worse in a15+ vesp where you get pulled into some random vesp ability

#

like you get flown up and then thrown into platform breaker and then void wave

#

and then ur cooked

coarse quartz
quaint flicker
#

the only shine when you cant get to them quickly

#

same with mothqueen

teal plank
#

sug add remove bloodthirsty from laser elites

#

i feel like it happens way too often when one of them just flies over ur head and 1taps u

#

even if u try to block the los

left phoenix
#

honestly I don't mind higher difficulty rooms
if that's the point of the design then whatever find a way through it
like if cz spawners all have low range and you just go from one camp to the next with everything relatively in control, it'd be kinda boring, you just do the same thing nuking before they do anything

empty sentinel
red wyvern
#

I'll assume its some sort of collision bug then because he doesn't normally one tap outright through lifeline but sometimes he can

shy ibex
#

vorpal planewalker is my favorite mob

empty sentinel
#

One hit from the charge can proc lifeline and then the sweep can kill

shy ibex
#

ice barrier #1 skill against it

empty sentinel
#

Yup

empty sentinel
red wyvern
#

noble concept, however Zenith roombuilder execution of the concept is haunting

shy ibex
#

i dont think the f1 elite room is difficulty its just kind of bs with pernicious and everything

#

3 spawners in the air includin g creepers is just not it at the end

#

it just keeps respawning before you can get to it, unless you have recoil and a lifeline which isnt super great for a floor one room

red wyvern
#

a lot of Zenith rooms end up either obnoxious or unrealistic, something like the original ChargingUV room or the F2 Train Ribcage room

shy ibex
#

the train ribcage one is cool but uses way too many albino rats

red wyvern
#

in DD the ChargingUV room might've been a feasible room design, unfortunately Mothqueens are like 1000% stronger than Anglers for no apparent reason

shy ibex
#

like atleast 80% of the spawners are albino rats its insane

red wyvern
#

the train room execution is all over the place, no elite spawner should not only be such a high activation range but also activate at the same time as 9 basic spawners that are also concealed or suspended in midair

#

and if you approach the Mothqueen spawner on the left or dead on, the next segment of the room spawns

quaint flicker
#

What

shy ibex
#

i think its a cool idea imo

quaint flicker
#

Train ribcase is an very well done chokepoint area and the high activation range is the only way to make a mothqueen threatening

shy ibex
#

the spawner suspended in midair should probably get shot i could agree with that

red wyvern
#

if the Mothqueen was an Alarin and the spawner count between the elite and yourself was about halved it would be a reasonable encounter, instead it's just another classic Zenith moment of "yeah so there's 50 mobs right now good luck"

quaint flicker
red wyvern
#

does it matter? it's bloat

shy ibex
#

i got no idea what it spawns but it just adds to the chaos that makes the room

#

and as you say you dont mine it, i dont think thats a fair spawner

#

if you take too long on the encounter then it spawns again

quaint flicker
#

Spawns nothing again

#

It might even be empty ngl

red wyvern
#

Zenith rooms almost never have what I'd consider "carefully placed spawners", it's usually ordinary incrementally placed spawners or a dump of several spawners in one range

#

off topic but I wish Zenith rooms had personality and flair like what DD builders did to some of the rooms

#

like the F1 Pufferfish elite room

#

or Eternal Fishul

shy ibex
#

the charging uv rooms have personality

red wyvern
#

ChargingUV rooms usually have a conceptual uniqueness to the room but otherwise appear as a normal room

#

I like conceptual uniqueness however it's like playing with fire

quaint flicker
#

plenty of spawners are positioned such that they are hard to reach especially in f3 but also train ribcage is like a perfect example, moth provides pressure and is hard to reach besides running past mobs and the hidden bone spawners force a sustained encounter instead of being able to nuke it once with no respawns

red wyvern
#

the ribcage room's Mothqueen activates at a range where players have severely limited safe pathing options

quaint flicker
#

Thats the whole point

#

If moth died instantly it would be a useless elite placement

red wyvern
#

this sucks because Mothqueens have a ohko disjointed aoe attack

quaint flicker
#

Only way to combat it is to dodge the floor attack or rush the moth spawner

red wyvern
#

if the elite was not a Mothqueen the ribcage would be reasonable, however you walk into a chokepoint that spawns a lethal mob and there is no solution other than disengaging the Mothqueen

#

the illusion of engagement options because doing anything other than disengaging will put a ton of unwanted pressure on your team

#

so the alternative is to stair up to the right and approach the Moth separately from the ribcage engagement to force a more favorable combat encounter instead of "yeah you have nowhere to run and there's a ton of mobs safeguarding the threat"

coarse quartz
#

Bone cage is really scary but pretty simple to deal with

red wyvern
#

the only other solution is having your Shadow run Earthquake and displace themselves all the way across the ribcage to solo handle the Mothqueen and subsequent Dreadnaught and hope that their abscense on the frontline is a manageable loss and that they themselves aren't boxed out by the dozens of mobs they have put between them and their team

#

then again "abscense on the frontline" is an inapplicable concept to Zenith because the dungeon plays like HSB

quaint flicker
left phoenix
#

I feel like mothqueen circles are not even that hard to dodge, given the ground is relatively spacial
idk

quaint flicker
#

so yeah you either have a good shadow rush the mothqueen or deal with the floor attack as you slowly approach it (very generous time to dodge)

#

and the shadow does not have to deal with the dread, the danger is the moth queen you can immediately run back

#

theres plenty of space to dodge the melee mobs in

red wyvern
#

the encounter is not made difficult because of the unwanted pressure, it's instead an unrealistic encounter to have control over

#

the Mothqueen spawns and you are getting attacked, this provides close to zero engagement depth or gameplay enjoyability

dusk bay
#

This type of room would never be Ok'd if caster's weren't wildly overbearing

red wyvern
#

true

#

kinda another Zenith moment again

dusk bay
quaint flicker
#

earth is tanky enough to just rush spawners to prevent respawns
dawn has lbottle but its a support class anyway
shadow has stealth and flurry
frost/steel/flame have plenty of aoe

literally any class except maybe dawn without lbottle can deal with the room solo

red wyvern
#

rather than develop an advanced or curated engagement that your team plays out to solve the threat of the Mothqueen, all of the technical part of the engagement is instead frontloaded on making the Mothqueen spawn "out of order" so that you don't even have to deal with the encounter design in the first place

#

either that or you crutch Zenith's baffling role balance and just steamroll the encounter like any other

quaint flicker
#

like how would you redesign this room to be "gameplay enjoyable"

red wyvern
#

What are the resources and strategies you can employ to handle a given threat that don't immediately compromise you

red wyvern
dusk bay
#

"Pathing" is forced down the player's throat, there's no decision of "how do we approach this group of spawners +elite without everything going to shit", there's no way to plan around the room when it's forced onto you

quaint flicker
#

yeah its a chokepoint

#

thats the point of a chokepoint

#

if you could clear any zenith room 1 spawner at a time nothing would ever be threatening

dusk bay
#

There's no thinking, it's guaranteed mindless mob pit that only furthers the extremes of aoe vs single target

red wyvern
left phoenix
#

maybe you can climb left and clear down lul

quaint flicker
#

it is not an enclosed environment its one of the most open rooms in f2

dusk bay
#

Nothing to respect about the mobs, no "I don't want to push that way so we can delay the mobs from X spawner", it's devoid of nuance

red wyvern
quaint flicker
#

and all of the mobs spawns are melee, meaning you can actually use that large open space and just run circles around the room to get to the moth

left phoenix
#

well there you go there's the depth

dusk bay
#

Especially in the context of Zenith where the room is max delved/difficulty all the time with quesitonable ability selection in F2, where hellish rooms in DD are either contained in lower delve points where players are still building up abilities/upgrades, or high delve unpredictability/damage scaling, the room's stat check over room awareness contributes to the rng snowball of Zenith's overarching weakness

glacial sun
#

I think it's conceptually fine (get across the mobs to the elite while dodging its aoe) but I can agree with the execution (the flying mob isn't necessary, count could be 3 instead of 4 on all of the normal mobs, it could be shown better as a major chokepoint like with a "DO NOT ENTER" sign and a fence you have to break or something, which would also be pretty memorable, spend 1 more hour thinking of what block to use in place of concrete powder)

red wyvern
glacial sun
#

I did a bit of a mob analysis comparing zenith to depths and there's definitely some things missing mainly regarding normal mobs that I think show through its spawners

fallow plume
#

pls dont make me break a fence im not keeping an axe in my hotbar

glacial sun
#

one maybe

#

or an iron bar

left phoenix
red wyvern
#

Zenith basic mobs are less raw presence and more "yeah so like I am incredibly obnoxious and you get to deal with me for 27 rooms"

fallow plume
#

calcite 😁

glacial sun
red wyvern
#

I think even the most devout Zenith fans agree that Reelers should not exist

fallow plume
#

new content soon omg

glacial sun
#

italic = ranging from somewhat memorable cool gimmick mob to "floor feature"

Depths:

  • 3 Melees (Zombie, Skeleton, Spider) 2 Rangeds (Skeleton, Pillager), Creeper with a shield
  • 3 Melees (Zombie, Spider with a jump, Silverfish Stack), 1 Ranged (Trident), Super Creeper (0.33 movement speed and charged), Bee
  • 3 Melees (Zombie, Skeleton, Wolf+Spider), 1 Ranged (Pillager) Blaze, Creeper on a Slime
    (2/6, 4/6, 3/6)

Zenith:

  • 4 Melees (Zombie, Skeleton, Spider, Kamikaze Slime,), 1 Ranged (Skeleton), Creeper
  • 3 Melees (Zombie, Skeleton, Spider), 1 Ranged (Skeleton), Creeper on a Spider, Bee
  • 3 Melees (Zombie, Basically a Skeleton, Double Spider), 2 Rangeds (Punch Skeleton, Reeler), Slime on a Creeper, Blaze
    (1/6, 2/6, 5/7)
    Conclusion: I get a bad grade on zenith normal mobs (particularly F2)

I think I feel this pretty much everytime we do spawners and its something I'd like to fix
F1 feels like you have 4 melees 1 ranged and a creeper
F2 is more of the same except the creeper is harder to use, because generally speaking places you want to place creepers are not places you want to use spiders (and its riding one) (also a bee does exist)
F3 is both the best and the worst because it has cool minor gimmicks but it also has evil ones
The double spider is really anti-singletarget and the slime on a creeper is much less interesting than the reverse in Depths F3
And then reeler/skeleton, while can be used decently sometimes, are too much and you don't have a regular ranged mob (also blazes do exist and are cool)

red wyvern
#

Zenith melee mobs in general walk too fast or there's too many axe mobs

#

Depths has Alarinkiri exclusively as a melee shieldbreak mob

#

Zenith has a basic on F2 & F3 that walks at mach fuck to eviscerate them cheeks

#

room design as a whole is also sublty less treadable or more hazardous than Depths which whittles down pathing options for everybody but most notably Shadow players

#

how many Zenith rooms now have a section where you jump off a cliff roughly 8-12 blocks tall into a pit with a bunch of spawners in it

glacial sun
#

that is a valid callout

#

I do miss the less defined pathing also

#

(extreme example but I mean in general)

image.png
red wyvern
left phoenix
#

lol that depth room

red wyvern
#

Endless Chains is one of those "god damn it" rooms but there's definitely something wrong about Zenith rooms when I still feel motivated to engage Endless Chains but Zenith has rooms I have to convince myself to even walk into

quaint flicker
#

actually thats not true there is one part where you jump down into like 5 spawners and an evoker elite arena area, but aside from that i cant think of any rooms that do what you descibed beyond 1-2 normal spawners

red wyvern
#

there's that F1 room with the quad creeper spawners and the fake door I think

dusk bay
delicate timber
dusk bay
#

The TNT fake door room in F1 has you drop onto 4 spawners, some TrueRandom in there

red wyvern
quaint flicker
red wyvern
#

the reasons a DD room is threatening is almost never the same as reasons a CZ room is threatening

quaint flicker
delicate timber
#

not having revives in DD feels so bad when your used to zenith.

#

not saying DD should have revives though because the isles economy will explode

red wyvern
#

it ends up making high stakes gameplay objectively harder to design by reducing or removing punishment from each individual failure

delicate timber
red wyvern
#

it also opens up gameplay that willingly invites unoptimal strategy because the punishment is something that is easy to recover from

hallow sphinx
#

the enemies in a1 is pretty slow

delicate timber
#

I disagree if you play recklessly you might not get revived later. you can rely on getting revived once, you also are probably getting revived twice unless you really messed up. But once your timer gets down to 2 seconds its extremely hard to save you anymore.

left phoenix
red wyvern
#

the DD F2 room with the jump down into the water and the floating anvil has depth to how you engage that section of the room like who to send down or how to spawn the spawners or when other people can jump down. in Zenith you can just send down your Caster with their nuke ability and if they die you just send another guy down to revive them

delicate timber
#

also curse of death is one of the better curses in the and theres going to be quite a few runs where you pick it

red wyvern
#

so many Zenith encounters where you probably say to yourself "yeah that happened" versus Depths where the vast majority of your deaths are you or your team's own fault

delicate timber
#

dying more then once is really bad. I don't think its unreasonable for your first death to be forgiving with how much damage zenith mobs deal

#

and how nonsense f1 can be

quaint flicker
#

revives are not 'easy' they force your team to have everything under control or to risk reviving you around mobs, but it does offer forgiveness for deaths that feel undeserved

I should mention that there are almost no situations where deaths are actually undeserved, you can engage any encounter with bad abilities/aoe and still come out fine if you dont get yourself (or a teammate by exploding a creeper or something) killed

delicate timber
#

I will say that on low accessions dying is pretty riskless; since you have so much more revive time per player. But thats fine imo

red wyvern
#

the concept of an undeserved or even partially undeserved death almost doesn't even exist in Depths but for Zenith it's commonplace just about

#

I don't get that part tbh

quaint flicker
#

its really not

#

its easier to die but if you play well there are virtually no situations where is wasnt your fault that you died

hallow sphinx
#

only time I feel like I died unfairly in zenith was when the server crapping in its pants when broodmother dashed suffer

quaint flicker
#

yeah lag and absurdly unlucky rng are the only places where you can really call deaths unfair, and even for terrible trandom/ability rng chances are in hindsight there was probably some way you couldve played to not have died

red wyvern
quaint flicker
#

solutions:

  • dont "eat" attacks
  • dont be allegric to ehp pieces
hallow sphinx
#

skill issue?

delicate timber
hallow sphinx
#

there isn't an "unfair" enemy in zenith

#

just annoying ones

#

like the pullers

red wyvern
delicate timber
quaint flicker
#

malediction is absolutely not an unfair mob, reelers are pretty cooked though

hallow sphinx
#

and is very fair

red wyvern
#

true but everyone complains about it so I tossed it in

hallow sphinx
#

its like the most fair pull you can ask for

quaint flicker
delicate timber
hallow sphinx
#

also not all zenith rooms are meant to be equal in difficulty

left phoenix
#

I don't really feel unfair unless I get like really unlucky and get no skills then maybe
the rules are all public, you know what mob does what
A lot of time it's just disrespecting mobs
like there's a malediction spawned and people just walk away no wonder you'd hate it

red wyvern
#

in uncommon cases, a dodge from a seeker can place it around a corner or into a LoS previously covered which can be incredibly unfair for your teammate

dusk bay
#

#screenshots message

quaint flicker
red wyvern
#

since the dodge direction is random and there's so many damage instances and AoE floating around in an encounter, it's difficult to say that the death is deserved

red wyvern
hallow sphinx
red wyvern
#

true

#

please erase bloodthirsty

delicate timber
glacial sun
quaint flicker
#

seekers do 50% of your health they arent ohko, they are also blockable with shields or simply by placing 1 block infront of you, or are rendered useless with silence/stun

quaint flicker
glacial sun
#

though it goes into the very broad "Tweaked spawners" changelog so not something anyone would know

#

oh maybe I just made a todo for that but never did it

quaint flicker
glacial sun
#

maybe it just gets a ceiling

left phoenix
dusk bay
hallow sphinx
#

bloodthristy shouldn't be able to move enemies with 100% slowness

glacial sun
#

I can see it

#

we wanted to make Venus chiv immune at one point but I think that's fairer since you can tell its happening

red wyvern
#

I just wish Zenith was much less about RNG and overpowering force. I want smart strategies that feel good to pull off in rooms, something that genuinely feels like I'm putting in good work. Zenith feels like a slugfest kill or be killed environment with little room for in depth engagement or routing strategy.

delicate timber
#

how many are immobile mobs that can receive bloodthirsty are there?

red wyvern
#

"Walk through this room, kill the mobs, move on" is how I would describe Zenith

hallow sphinx
quaint flicker
red wyvern
#

yes that is content at its base, however Zenith has almost nothing in the way of building off of that

hallow sphinx
left phoenix
#

the ex yellow snipers
idk if they can get bt though forgor
probably can

delicate timber
red wyvern
#

and if content doesn't build off of that simple formula, I'd rather play overworld content with my developed classes than roll the wheel on my least favorite gacha game to see if I'm allowed to have abilities on this playthrough

delicate timber
#

they might get the HP buff but idk I never played normal ex yellow.

left phoenix
#

they do I think
if you kill them they respawn
and if you break the spawner they stop spawning

red wyvern
glacial sun
delicate timber
hallow sphinx
red wyvern
dusk bay
left phoenix
#

step 1: can we have this very reasonable change plz
step 2: hehe now this secret interaction is absolutely busted

hallow sphinx
#

not really

#
  1. you need to use gruesome
  2. it has 25% chance of working
  3. you need to allocate enhancement point to gruesome
dusk bay
#

Gruesome enhancement is off topic but I've used it for a while to test around and I have gotten no feedback from players in my groups that it exists, and do not notice it meaningfully contributing (I hear the noise when it triggers though, so it's definitely activating)

glacial sun
#

it's not actually a 100% slowness check frozen just apparently made a boss_coordinatedattack_ignore tag a long time ago and I put it on the mob

hallow sphinx
#

well anyway this is a very nice change

glacial sun
#

there's 3-ish different upcoming systems ideas to help with rng in different ways though they are either pending finalizing ideas or implementation

red wyvern
#

behold, the solution to all our problems

#

isn't there a boss tag that specifies targetting players based on class

glacial sun
#

no that's just an option you can do

red wyvern
#

nice

glacial sun
#

maybe there should be a zenith mob that kills you if you are technically alchemist

red wyvern
#

server supported discrimination

#

time to make every mob in the game target the nearest rogue player

fallow plume
#

The lower damaged output but no cooldowns and limited attacks made it far more strategic than just walking into a spawner and pressing the kill button

#

There’s so many small optimisations that can be made on dawn compared to other classes in my experience

#

Although I’ll admit I didn’t play much of the others

quaint flicker
#

lbottle was the worst case of overpowering force 💀

#

0 cooldown room nuker that refreshes fully cause legionary spawns

#

its even the worst case of rng too you specifically need high rarity lbottle and want like 4 other passives ideally

fallow plume
#

I’m talking about like 1.5 months ago when it was good enough to clear decently but not stupidly strong

#

Although yeah the rng factor is a bit shit, i still want lower rarity bottles to be increased slightly

quaint flicker
#

anyway saying edd has smart strategies compared to zenith is hyperbole, the only real difference is that you walk in specific routes in certain rooms, which is also entirely possible in a lot of zenith rooms

people dont do it because its inefficient compared to just activating a bunch of spawners at once, there is a revive system, and mobs dont 1 shot like they do in very deep edd

#

also imo, they also dont do it cause its just more fun to play harder more chaotic (chaotic does not mean unfair or unsurvivable) encounters instead of planned 2-3 spawner activations

shy ibex
#

and lbottle was not even an active 🔥

quaint flicker
dusk bay
#

what in the world was the goal with this rework to this room I can't understand it

image.png
glacial sun
#

what about it

red wyvern
#

me when I drop down into a pit of spikes and tall grass brimming with spawners

dusk bay
#

The pathing in this room seems significantly worse, it's "one path" which is nice but the path itself has become revolting to path through

quaint flicker
glacial sun
#

I can agree it commits the crime of jumping directly into spawners too many times (in the tunnel and directly after) though I'd say the pathing is generally an improvement

#

will probably tweak it somewhat

cinder bobcat
#

(asking for a friend)

#

sorry i meant mr king of zenith 🙇‍♂️

dusk bay
#

you either go left which is a drop straight into spawner hell, or right through the stalagmite/tites into a slightly less hellish hole that will still trigger half the spawners in the lower section (with half of your jump area cut off with stalagmites)

image.png
quaint flicker
red wyvern
#

it is funny watching the replay and seeing half the spawners in that section activate as early as in the very first section of the room

#

the big arena style final room was basically empty and the spawners already activated before any of us even got there

#

classic Zenith spawner placement/range moment

dusk bay
#

it's unreal how many mobs spawn before you even get to look below you

image.png image.png
#

it's very reasonable to expect at least one of these in this mess are vengeful/arcanic/carapace'd and can nuke you

red wyvern
quaint flicker
#

yeah clearing the top path should be more rewarding in improving the path down (barely changes it as is aside from the leaves route)

but in general drops onto spawners just force encounters without a clean escape route which is not necessarily a bad thing. If anything it makes chokepoints feel like actual chokepoints instead of just areas you backwards walk 20 blocks from while slowly clearing the mobs

#

e.g, constellation tower end chokepoint, you can trivalize it but just using the balcony and vertical space you have to back away from the encounter

quaint flicker
# dusk bay it's very reasonable to expect at least one of these in this mess are vengeful/a...

and this part can happen anywhere, the solutions are:

  • dont wear damage in every slot (revolutionary idea in 2024 monumenta)
  • play better (not sure how else to break this point, arrows arent undodgeable, melee mobs are trivial for ranged classes aside from making it harder to focus on dodging arrows)
    (if the above are impossible: get an earth/ewrath user; wait for cds and collectively nuke the spawners)
#

so basically if the goal is to always have a clear safe path down then the room should be reworked or the leaves path made more obvious (maybe even remove the leaves), but having a safe path down is not something that needs to happen for every encounter

the spawner ranges should probably be tweaked if they are early activating although ive never noticed it happening when ive gone through the room

molten sand
coarse quartz
#

Idk what this yapping is about when the new f3 rooms exist and the f1 elite exists

#

This is one of the better ones imo

coarse quartz
fallow plume
coarse quartz
#

I said this is one of the better ones

#

And with the dev power we got we should prioritize what's the worst

#

Anyway

#

But I still think this rework is a positive not a negative

red wyvern
#

If Zenith is meant to be a successor to Depths, the difference in build quality and room framework is easily the biggest downgrade when moving away from Depths and into Zenith. Rooms are designed significantly more maliciously in Zenith than they are in Depths, and Zenith rooms that utilize framework concepts that exist in Depths rooms do so in a much less approachable way.
There are dropdown chokepoints in Depths rooms, however they play much differently than Zenith dropdown chokepoint rooms. Depths rooms have their spawners placed so that the spawners activate during or after the dropdown and not before. Spawner ranges are also tinkered with to design a longer lasting engagement rather than a deathpit where every spawner is either already activated or activates at once. The design flaw of deathpits is so frequent in Zenith that it's practically commonplace to reduce engagements to a binary where you wait before an engagement to get your abilities back and shotgun everything immediately to win rather than carefully apply resources where necessary to win the room. I don't blame players for doing this though, Zenith rooms are so much more lethal and hazardous than even the most daunting Depths rooms with the abundance of obstacles that flood the rooms, Floor 2 rooms are the biggest offenders of this.

#

It's telling that the premier solution to a Zenith dropdown chokepoint is just nuke the room with every ability, and half the Zenith rooms have a dropdown chokepoint designed to facilitate that approach to the gameplay.

#

Using the original ChargingUV room as an example of malicious building, not a single Depths room combines the trifecta of abundance of lava paired with very cramped and untraversable landscape while also carpetbombing the room with spawners that all overlap and activate in bursts

#

There is hardly any strategy to the room beyond approach of and erasing the opening Mothqueen as quickly as your ability options allow you to, the room activates as a whole and it's a slugfest shitshow on stilts over lava

#

Moving back to the room that began this discussion, the BEST approach as designed by the roombuilder is to jump down into a section in which upward of 10 spawners have already been activated, a section littered with stalagmites and tallgrass in the landing zone and uneven terrain all throughout. What do you do besides make your own path "unintended" by the roombuilders (aformentioned leaf route) or reduce the combat to a "yeah so we just use every ability and the enemies die"

#

Rather than a pathing optimization for a Depths room where you can make a room more favorable, Zenith rooms get a pathing pseudo-requirement because the dev intended path is so unfriendly to players that it's not even worth it

quaint flicker
#

man you exaggerate too much,

  • not "half the rooms" have drop down chokepoints,
  • you arent jumping onto "upward of 10 spawners" there are like 3 directly threatening and maybe 1 more that could activate but its far away
  • the premier strategy for ANY content in the game is to nuke the mobs as fast as possible, failing that an extremely easy rng/skill independent solution is just wear more ehp (its crazy how many problems this would solve for people complaining about difficulty/damage while wearing near bis damage)

imo absolutely no rooms are so overtuned that they should be called bad room design or even need nerfs/reworks. If anything the harder rooms are the ones i (and other people ive played with) enjoy getting the most despite them taking more time and having greater risk (the risk and difficulty is part of the fun)

charred ravine
#

Nuh uh 🧸

quaint flicker
#

you can see the 3 spawners here (its not 10+)

nks2OCr.png
quaint flicker
#

zenith does not suffer from the eventual guarenteed one shots that edd does, and every room does need to be approchable in a 0 damage taken/low risk manner to be called good design, having pathing like that for every room only makes every room feel identical

the revive system and static damage values you can build around make riskier encounters completely reasonable (even the ascension system acts as a difficulty slider)

quaint flax
#

i played a12 last night, my party very much did suffer from guaranteed one shots. things were popping our lifelines when we were at full health very frequently
i can also share that there are ways to make encounters that are linear + incorporate risk into approaching in unique ways without makin ghtme all feel identical

#

it is very possible to design encounters that requires risk taking of some degree, without feeling bullshit

quaint flicker
# quaint flax i played a12 last night, my party very much did suffer from guaranteed one shots...

just pointing out that again this is largely a build (as in gear) issue, you wouldnt be getting one shot if you choose to wear a tankier build, unlike in edd where eventually even full tank builds get one shot

i wouldnt mind linear risky room design (dont know what that would look like) if someone wants to create rooms like that, but i dont think that this type of room design is inherently bad

quaint flax
#

i had 100-115ehp without inure, 160-190 with inure up (both are before second wind 4), i definitely feel that it should be sufficient

#

i accounted for defense in my build, i did not go full damage

red wyvern
#

I was the only one close to full damage (BIS-1) and I did that deliberately as an experiment

#

the others had several defensive pieces on

red wyvern
#

as well as the majority of dungeons that maintain a singular theme

left phoenix
# quaint flicker man you exaggerate too much, - not "half the rooms" have drop down chokepoints,...

I pretty much agree with this, rooms are indeed hard and frustrating but that doesn't make them bad
if every room can be done in a controlled manner it'd just be boring
gotta have these hard chokepoints that has no good solution to spice things up

as for if dropping down style chokepoints are good, not necessarily, it may have been used too much that they feel sort of annoying and repetitive
but these uncontrollable locations are not just bad in general imo

#

the comparison with depth is valid though, cz room design is indeed much much more dangerous than dd
but like they don't have to be the same

fallow plume
red wyvern
#

160-190 upward before SW4 being low is 💀

quaint flicker
#

and by all means wear whatever you want but bringing up taking too much damage as a point while not having tried an actual tanky build is not a valid complaint

quaint flax
#

i will go into a12 in a significantly tankier build then and report back

#

could you give me a suggestion for one? I play shadow

quaint flicker
#

this might even be too tanky since I use it for a partially spawner rushy playstyle but its definitely very comfortable ehp wise in maxpt content, put vigor levels on it to make up the damage or just modify it a little
https://ohthemisery-psi.vercel.app/builder/m=Wrench of the Perfect Atrium-4&o=Wolfswood's Reach-4&h=Hardest Hat-4&c=Mycelian Mantra-4&l=EX Ironscale Leggings-4&b=EX Chains of the Damned-4&charm=None

something more standard would be this (not something i would call tanky, but not 1 shottable either)
https://ohthemisery-psi.vercel.app/builder/m=Epoch Hammer-4&o=Crimson Tithe-4&h=Uriddan's Legacy-4&c=EX Broodhide Tunic-4&l=Vilepriest Garments-4&b=Flight from the Capital-4&charm=None

OHTHEMISERY.TK
Monumenta Builder

Wrench of the Perfect Atrium-4
Wolfswood's Reach-4
Hardest Hat-4
Mycelian Mantra-4
EX Ironscale Leggings-4
EX Chains of the Damned-4

OHTHEMISERY.TK
Monumenta Builder

Epoch Hammer-4
Crimson Tithe-4
Uriddan's Legacy-4
EX Broodhide Tunic-4
Vilepriest Garments-4
Flight from the Capital-4

teal plank
#

isnt a12 already like 50pts or wtv

left phoenix
#

yeah I mean a12 is not a 12pts, they should do a lot of damage
I think at a12+ it's similar to late edd where you just try to use either room knowledge or awareness to avoid them instead

quaint flax
molten sand
#

sounds like you need some good charms

#

as does your entire team

#

so you're not forced to build full damage so that stuff can die

#

mind you, I say "good", not "godroll 1k har charms"

molten sand
#

Unfortunately if you don't have a good set up shadow can very much feel frustrating to play

#

And, that said, those runs where I get flurry or AS on floor 3 and I don't have a couple clearers in the party feel like an immense slog

#

I think I had to invest like...400 har in my charm set + getting 15cp, and I need to either invest 200-250 more for the "meta" armor build

shy trellis
#

Zenith Charm Hater decected!

molten sand
#

erm

quaint flicker
shy trellis
#

somehow the cap change make me feel is easier to get good charm, but the rng problem still there, and u still need more charm power, while zenith has 18 asc now, it still more a fast pace so new ppl have trouble finding player willing to do low asc(already happen), and ppl who can done high asc already have team so they not gonna lfg + lfg ppl most likely would be newer ppl i mention before, don't know meta stragetdy, don't have good build, don't have good charm or charm power

Zenith still a largely play content, one of reason is because is... a new content that get update often, recently expansion does do something on fix uselss skill, also add some fun, unqiue mechanic to asc, but at the meantime enter gate is still high, it seems dev still has plan for zenith future, but sometime i do worried about who will play those update if it realted to high asc

molten sand
shy trellis
#

the most reason i hate charm system is because u mostly likely need market to have good charm unless u want mess around with rng, i understand zenith is more a new mode but i quite don't like this

u still can get good charm by uself, like i know a guy play ironman for zenith and get to a12(total 120~ clear), it can work but is quite slowly and buring player interest, if zenith is more slow place i wouldn't have this problem, but consider how fast it is, it feel more frustating when play high asc but have no good charm

shy trellis
molten sand
#

At some point it's also a problem of accessibility in of itself, because like, only around 80 people have done A16+ when 250 have done A15

#

I made a spreadsheet a couple weeks ago and the median number of runs of players who had done A16+ was around 200 I think

shy trellis
#

i would even like to argue the problem with charm price, new cotent drop always have high price, but due to each charm is unique, only, it make charm price incredible higher, which plus itself is a new, fun content that make ppl want play, at the end it lead to ppl try to earn as many money as possible, which create another problem, either go zenith try roll a good charm, or go lr/braindead but clear fast playstyle, lead our game to even more fast-paced and well, burning player interest on the game

#

at the end all my soultion is

  1. make charm easier to obtain and higher cap on single charm
  2. tweak charm drop rate
  3. let it be, ppl can decide what content to play with(which mean that don't really have other thing to play since 2024)
dusk bay
#

This was a concern that I brought up near the start of Zenith's release:

#1197553781177581709 message

...but really, I'm just charm jealous

(And apparently everyone else who doesn't want to keep up with Zenith's grind requirements for charms despite it being "replayable")

molten sand
#

hilarious how that convo is 1:1 what's happening now

#

And apparently everyone else who doesn't want to keep up with Zenith's grind requirements for charms despite it being "replayable"
I feel like this very much also applies to the people that didn't go for A16+ while having an A15 clear

shy trellis
#

i think some ppl know i play with community which speak chinese mainly, i can't tell most of my friend, beside those in [-w-zz ], most of us doesn't play zenith anymore, some are lag as fuck during f2 boss, some are done with charm, many of them had even done a15 and just decide let go of it, not like is a content that i can get something important

molten sand
#

yep

dusk bay
shy trellis
#

one of reason my friend done with zenith, is they have like 1-2 double shit roll legendary charm, one day they mog all of them and got 1 shit roll charm

#

now they quit this server anyway, they have real life and... more fun thing to play with

molten sand
#

Maybe TM has a way of getting that but I doubt each player has a frequency spread of each ascension clear registered

#

I know for a fact that if/when I get A15/A18 I am not replaying it, one and done for me (A12 is the sweet spot)

shy trellis
#

although its not the main reason(probably), but i think charm system should get something done, rng problem, price problem, accessability problem etc.

#

anyway i'll go sleep

fallow plume
#

its kinda hilarious that people said "just play the content to get charms you need" meanwhile i have like 500 cz comps and have dropped a grand total of 1 good dawn charm

molten sand
#

Yeah I have never rolled a great charm

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People will then move the goalpost and tell you that you don't need good charms to beat A18

shy trellis
#

dected charm jealous "wake up"

molten sand
#

But please do go look at their names in the scoreboard (half are constantly in the auction channel)

fallow plume
#

mfw "just drop the charms yourself" meanwhile ora has 1.1k comps and has been buying charms for 8 months and still needs to buy more shadow charms

molten sand
#

I'm not gonna call out anyone specific by doing this, but like
People who are filthy rich hoarding and buying up all good charms to make rental sets make me irrationally angry

molten sand
#

sorry!

fallow plume
#

the issue is even if tis not for a rental set its still necessary to buy as many charms for the skills you want to use as you can afford

#

ive spent thousands of har on charms that arent even upgrades at this point just because i need to have them available to prepare for future upgrades to my sets

quaint flax
#

Fat man drinking water image while emaciated peasant gets a drop seems like a funny thing to post right now

molten sand
red wyvern
#

if you wanna keep the "grind out the charms" aspect of the game, reduce the mog costs

#

4:1 > 2:1

molten sand
#

I just wish there was a deterministic player-bound way of target farming charms

red wyvern
#

at the very least you can halve the estimated several hundred runs you need to do to fill out 1 setup

molten sand
#

So i could say fuck off to the market

molten sand
fallow plume
molten sand
#

Example: I want a shadow, epic blade flurry tree and it takes approximately 4 runs at A12 to "create"

molten sand
red wyvern
red wyvern
molten sand
#

I mean i don't know how HSB does it but deterministic farming is a staple of ARPGs which use itemization systems similar to charms in MM

molten sand
dusk bay
molten sand
#

Yeah I remember that one Vigilante

#

My charm idea is actually based on that

red wyvern
#

I'll use Slayers as an example:
You pick an item (I'll use High Class Archfiend Dice from Blaze Slayer) and that item takes 230,000 meter
killing a T4 Blaze grants 500 slayer XP (625 during Aatrox but semantics)
RNG Meter is filled 1:1 with XP acquired, guaranteeing a drop on the next boss you fight once RNG Meter fills
HOWEVER the RNG Meter passively buffs the selected drop's rate a little bit depending on how filled up the meter is
Finally, dropping the item (whether it's through meter or normally) resets meter progress

red wyvern
molten sand
#

fair

red wyvern
#

not productive like arguing for the sake of causing discourse but productive in a sense that maybe someone who can work on the change is listening and they are willing to put in the work

#

getting off topic too much

#

too much unironic coping, either knowing or unknowingly, which leads to degrading quality and warped perception of acceptable design that at some point everyone disagrees with what the correct system is

#

kinda why gameplay discussion gets the bad wrap

quaint flicker
delicate timber
#

I think its reasonable to get "good" charms by yourself from just playing, but getting high tier charms is a bit to much to achieve without market.

#

I've dropped a couple of great charms but a couple is not enough to build a charm set even if they where all from the same tree

#

the thing is you don't need godly charm sets to play even a18 you just need a functional set, but pride stops people from wanting to try (I myself have also fell victim to this)

#

I still think the charm problem largely comes down to zenith being underplayed. Zenith needs to have an active playerbase to produce enough charms for them to be sold. It's gotten much better in the past month but we still need even more charms on the market. So zenith should be made more appealing/fun to play first.

#

Some people can accept having to buy charms to progress, but when the charms you need don't even exist then its a problem even for them.

flint trellis
quaint flicker
#

do both of those things

#

if you die too often get more ehp and if you have a ton of ehp and are still dying theres probably a common trend like youre face tanking creepers or something, so then dont do that

flint trellis
#

already figured out both of those and it doesn’t work, next dialogue branch please

quaint flicker
#

there is no next option, if youre literally already wearing full tank gear already and somehow are still dying (you are virtually immortal besides going afk in a full tank set) it is just 'play better'

you absolutely are doing something wrong like bashing your head into creepers if youre still dying at that point - it has nothing to do with zenith, zenith is barely different from a normal overworld 65pt in terms of damage taken

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i mean you can literally sit in a corner of a18 callicarpa and tank a full charged flower power in tank gear, like there is no planet where you are genuinely struggling in mid asc with no options to make your ehp comfortable

flint trellis
#

there's no planet, but there is a server, and I still play on it because there's a bunch of stuff to do other than Zenith

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I don't do 65pt overworld delves because I'm not that kind of clinically insane; I work on the wiki instead

quaint flicker
#

thats crazy what does this have to do with zenith mobs being overstatted

flint trellis
#

what does an overworld 65pt delve have to do with Zenith in the first place

dusk bay
red wyvern
#

unless you drop to a low Ascension, Zenith mobs refuse to die unlike R3 overworld mobs

flint trellis
quaint flicker
quaint flicker
#

its not an exaggeration theres even a clip of it in screenshots

quaint flicker
red wyvern
#

iirc in Zenith the Blight Starscourge peaks at 280+ HP before Vengeful while the healthiest overworld basic is the Lunacrest Construct at just over 200 even

#

naturally it would be difficult to pull 1.4x damage out of nowhere

dusk bay
fallow plume
#

most zenith trees with decent charms have higher dmg output than their overworld counterparts tbf

red wyvern
#

no because crutching a singular ability and throwing 1000 HAR at it is not what I view as a good use of my time

red wyvern
red wyvern
#

but I digress

quaint flicker
#

i remember calculating that charms (combos, all 3 passives, advancing) on shadow gave something less than a 1.4x overall increase compared having no damage charms (aside from advancing uptime) at high rarities, saying that you need 1000 har charms is just not true, you can easily get 1 and a bit more skills maxed with minimal investment beyond the base mog prices

red wyvern
quaint flicker
#

i know charms can cost 1000har you just dont need to spend that much money

#

you dont need 8 maxed skills to play high asc

#

like even base mog prices might still run you 100-200har but thats no multi-thousand har barrier to entry

red wyvern
#

that is true, you only need a charm setup capable of reducing combat to binary which is why said charm setups were only ever consisting of 5 different abilities across the 7 trees

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Advancing, Brutalize, Nova, Avalanche, EWrath

quaint flicker
#

this is copium especially post charm nerfs

#

getting specifically only advancing maxed is all that is signficiant and is extremely cheap if thats all youre going for

shy ibex
#

yeah adv is super easy to max now

quaint flicker
#

advancing is not so game changing it turns everything into binary

dusk bay
#

I don't see how you kill anything as shadow without advancing shadows spam and a 60% damage set

quaint flicker
#

because you clearly consider killing anything as having a requirement of 1 shot or be 1 shot

dusk bay
#

ok, so how many hits should it take to kill a mob with 60% damage and no advancing shadows, and should people find this enjoyable gameplay that they want to return to Zenith as shadow

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because with the amount of mobs Zenith spawns, I think it's pretty useless to walk around trying to melee things if they're just not going to die when casters just nuke rooms to oblivion

quaint flicker
#

yeah my bad they should make zenith mobs deal 0 damage and be 1 shottable at all times with no charms nor skills

shy ibex
#

you can try to kill elites earlier than the casters will

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or small spawners so they dont waste abilities

#

i think its a win win

delicate timber
# quaint flicker what did you even come on this thread to argue about? people complained that zen...

I think its fair to say that all zenith mobs do too much damage. Even if they are not ohkoing you regular zombies should not be doing half of your health bar. But zenith mob damage sort of has to be so high to compesate for the presence of dawn/earth as well as all of the of endgame healing items that zenith players are expected to use (like forge flame, II, sliver). So its tough to make damage in server feel balanced

shy ibex
#

i think vengeful is just terrible

quaint flicker
dusk bay
#

so what is a reasonable demand as a single target playstyle in Zenith

shy ibex
#

shoot vengeful and carapace

delicate timber
shy ibex
#

i think thatd drastically help single targets

quaint flicker
dusk bay
red wyvern
shy ibex
#

im ngl but i sometimes feel caster only bosses are easier than with a shadow, unless you have top players

#

which is 🥴

dusk bay
delicate timber
#

a large part of shadow's skill ceiling is to find opportunities to pitch in and help the team clear. Most obviously you can teleport in to take out a twisted enemy, or seeker.

delicate timber
dusk bay
delicate timber
#

your progression as a shadow dancer should be to nail the boss fights first and then work on accomplishing even more

dusk bay
#

except you can one shot a reasonable amount of mobs in Depths as shadow

shy ibex
#

isnt shadow unreasonable in depths because you also get one shot terribly there

dusk bay
red wyvern
#

Shadow in Depths can contribute in all aspects of the clear, why is this suddenly not allowed to be the case in Zenith

delicate timber
#

also acting like shadow is incapable of taking out 3 spawners at a time is disingenuous.

quaint flicker
# dusk bay except you can one shot a reasonable amount of mobs in Depths as shadow

i dont know what to tell you, i very often clear faster than my caster counterparts as shadow by simply running tankier gear and playing aggressive, and with non terrible rng you can pretty easily one shot normal mobs and like 3-4 shot elites

I have done a solo without advancing (a15, not in tank gear), i have done a solo with chroma blade (a18, no flurry charms), it is certainly possible to play high asc and contribute as shadow without relying on casters to carry you through

red wyvern
shy ibex
#

playing shadow without advancing is pretty terrible imo but any other ability is fair play

#

you dont need flurry charmed, flurry silence alone is super helpful, and the maybe low damage helps reach hp thresholds

delicate timber
#

oh also a lot of shadows like having secondary charm sets to use on skills like lightning bottle when the opportunity to use them pops up to use them to help clear. The best shadows have charms for multiple trees including their own. Its not needed to succeed but I think its cool how your able to be flexible as shadow.

dusk bay
quaint flicker
#

advancing is really only super major because its the only movement ability on shadow, if you get all 3 passives youll be fine, if you dont then you obviously and expectedly will be doing underwhelming damage but that wont really matter if you can sustain

delicate timber
# dusk bay +200 HAR

its not +200 har as a barrier to enter though, its +200 har to min max which I think is fine

dusk bay
#

you're still carrying "secondary charm sets" plural now

shy ibex
#

secondary sets are not ok

dusk bay
#

so now you're asking for even more from the player to continue trying to play shadow

#

I do have secondary sets, moreso because I wanted to play something different- I made an ice lance set "for cheap" and then I sat and looked at common Ice Lance for the entire run

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(it wasn't great!)

shy ibex
#

please please please just let us choose the random ability at the start of the run

#

my only real complaint about cz

delicate timber
#

the reason its not needed is because you wont have lightning bottle as a side tree in half of the runs you play. so that extra charm set is only an extra bonus you can use in some runs. This means you still need to be self reliant

flint trellis
quaint flicker
#

saying shadow cant clear in general is just wrong, saying you need bis rng or 30000har charm setups to clear is also just wrong

#

in an average run barring extremely bad or extremely good rng you will do just fine as shadow or any other class solely by having a good gear build

amber sand
#

even frost players don't want cryo I'm p sure

delicate timber
#

I do think its fair to say that shadow is the most demanding tree to play though, in terms of both skill and charms (and you do need better charms on average shadow then other trees because your job is so important for the team).

quaint flicker
#

yeah cryobox is horrible

flint trellis
#

Cryobox is just a terrible ability

#

worst lifeline and quite possibly the worst ability in the entire Depths/Zenith catalogue

delicate timber
flint trellis
#

I once had the idea of wantin' it turned into something of a snowstorm which constantly generates snow/ice around you for use with shit like Avalanche
but then the snowstorm was made a different active so now I need to think of something else to not be able to suggest because ain't no way ability suggestions are allowed

amber sand
#

if they just give it a resistance buff and removed the pop-up coffin part of it it'd be fine
maybe make it freeze the area around you or smth

flint trellis
#

well, yeah, but then it isn't much of a box, now is it

quaint flicker
#

cryofloor

amber sand
#

true,,
cryosphere
idk

flint trellis
#

Cryoground

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Cryodirt, even

quaint flicker
#

cryo frost nova

flint trellis
#

real

fallow plume
flint trellis
#

I don't particuilarly want my lifeline to begin with

gimme Last Breath or Steel Stallion instead