Celestial Zenith Feedback Thread

[surreal kiln]

Of a18

Not comps but runs

If you don’t have Ava f3 just pick anchor there

It’s either you don’t pick and don’t get Ava or u get to upg other stuff

But the way u play first

Frost and how most do

[quaint flicker]

i mean if you dont have other frost charms like barrier or lance you probably pick sloth over anchor

[surreal kiln]

I can see why u think it’s basically unplayable

[quaint flicker]

cause youre literally useless without ava or different charms

honestly lust too

[surreal kiln]

Don’t pick I’m ngl

U don’t have enough speed consistently for vesp

[delicate timber]

nah I'd still take anchor over lust; since lust will make everything do nothing

[surreal kiln]

With -25%

[quaint flicker]

wdym dont pick if you dont have ava (or barrier/lance charms) you are cosmetic player

just die for player scalaing at that point

[surreal kiln]

Wtb my Strat bac

It’s def gonna be worth

[delicate timber]

why is this not even a bad call 😭

how can a person be better off dead because the curses made them so weak.

[surreal kiln]

Becuz they didn’t have any adapt charms

Like the whole point of cz

[quaint flicker]

most people probably dont wanna suicide so your other options are just run barrier lance or a tank set and manually taunt mobs

but they need to make anchor randomized

it being only swap is weird

[delicate timber]

am I going to have to get frigid combo's charms to deal with ultra bad RNG so I can "adapt" better

[surreal kiln]

Your swap is meant to be your centerpiece ability

[surreal kiln]

No

Barrier and ice lance

[quaint flicker]

me when chaos dagger is truly the shadow centerpiece ability

[surreal kiln]

Yeah it is

Better then as

Trust me

Yeah now your centerpiece isn’t even on your class

[delicate timber]

oh I have some barrier and ice lance; although not enough to max their stats completely since I only kept the good ones.

[surreal kiln]

So use them

Preferable you want a okay set with some of both

[delicate timber]

I do think its a bit demoralizing to need to get even more charms when I was doing fine before though; especially when they are charms for a badly nerfed class.

I know that it was natural for CZ to end up this way, but it still feels bad

[jolly ibex]

is new meta 3 flame 1 shadow cosmetic

[delicate timber]

3 flames 1 shadow was always meta; its just that people where happy to take in other trees since a15 was not that hard and you could still win.

[surreal kiln]

What u mean cosmetic

[fallow plume]

nah

2 flame 1 dawn 1 shadow was probably better when rbless was still multi

real meta was 1 dawn 2 wind 1 shadow though

[delicate timber]

thats fair i'm not as familiar with much older metas

I was not around for lightning bottle's glory days, i've only ever seen washed lightning bottle and then dead lightning bottle.

[quaint flicker]

i mean honestly 2 steels 1 flame 1 shadow is probably just bis

[delicate timber]

in an LFG context people where happy to take any tree since a15's were a bit slow to fill since theres not many players. 4 good enough casters could win on a15 so it was worth trying.

[surreal kiln]

And it still can

[delicate timber]

I'm not sure if we will get to the point where people are comfortable playing a18 without a good team comp. Much less playing it in LFG consistently.

[surreal kiln]

Idk is steel rly that good

I’ve heard it’s good

[surreal kiln]

The team comp doesn’t matter that much

[delicate timber]

sometimes I wonder that too, is steel good or are the steel players just good

[surreal kiln]

How much a18 e perishable do u have

[surreal kiln]

What does that mean

[quaint flicker]

you get crazy rapid fire iframe bypassing dps and solid enough clearing power especially with flame deto carry

[surreal kiln]

I think the vesp dps is def better by a lot

[delicate timber]

The steel players are all great at the game and make the class look competent.

[surreal kiln]

But idk I think prob 2 flame 1 steel 1 shadow then

Jsut for consistent boss clear

[quaint flicker]

2 flame falls off

what boss clear

2 rapids and a shadow vesp isnt spawning a single real phase

[surreal kiln]

Maby

Idk I still want to see steel reg clear

[left phoenix]

I classify myself as a not very good steel player
I feel like steel is kinda bad when mobs are aggro on to you and you have to retreat away from your team
When teammates are around you it’s free fire and is pretty good
This versus flame can deal with mobs with less time and position better

[delicate timber]

I see steel take mobility skills to help deal with being boxed in.

[surreal kiln]

Flame positioning is acually kinda of hard

[left phoenix]

true
Thundercloud is honestly good pick on steel

[surreal kiln]

Becuz flame doesn’t rly work like frost

[delicate timber]

My first impression of using thundercloud on DD steel is that its great for the class; you get to escape from any bad situation and can even do some nice chip damage with it with your wand aspect. Not sure how great it will be in CZ

[surreal kiln]

It’s not delete button

You have to play “smart”

[fallow plume]

thundercloud is so fun for dawn but i dont think its that good

[surreal kiln]

Is the new abil bad

It doesn’t sound thaaat awful

[fallow plume]

idk yet i dont have charms for it

im pretty sure itll be good once i can get charms

[left phoenix]

Maybe if a random dreadling blocks the 150 damage it’s bad

[quaint flicker]

the damage is nice but the radius is so bad

idk how they cooked meteor with more damage and the aoe of a nuke and then thundercloud which is almost single target with lower damage

but i guess its cool for elites and twisteds

[left phoenix]

Creative flight tax

[surreal kiln]

Meteor raduis is meh now

[quaint flicker]

wind just needs like 1 more damage ability (make gbolt real)

[delicate timber]

I got twisted thundercloud in DD earlier; its 120 vs 150 from meteor.

[surreal kiln]

I can’t kill both brood weakpoints at once

[surreal kiln]

Make gbolt self cast real

[delicate timber]

thundercloud could maybe is a tiny splash damage buff but the skill feels really great (or cooldown, 30 seconds is an eternity)

[left phoenix]

Well ig you also need the 26 take off damage

[quaint flicker]

oh larger than i thought, didnt feel like that in practice

anyway it could at least be same radius as meteor 6 blocks

given the like 30s cooldown

[glacial sun]

(25)

[quaint flicker]

thundercloud is 25?

[delicate timber]

its 25? then why does it say 30 in game

[left phoenix]

Meteor is 25

[glacial sun]

oops 30

[red wyvern]

the screenshot says 30s

imo should get a bit of a aoe OR cooldown buff

it's doing good work just might want a touch up

[delicate timber]

get rid of take off damage budget and put it into its splash damage

[fallow plume]

now that the chat is active does anyone know what each hwind stat is gonna be converted to once it becomes thundercloud instead

[glacial sun]

only frozen earth

[fallow plume]

im sure someone said what it would be a few days ago but i dont remember where and im not scrolling through 7k messages

[delicate timber]

also give it carapace bypassing because I keep skill issuing and keep casting it before I use screwdriver first

[delicate timber]

I felt the same way since they both suffer from doing a lot of overkill damage

[surreal kiln]

Guys we are close to surpassing the balance changes yapping

Keep going

[delicate timber]

that twisted thundercloud form did 560 damage on a training dummy when I was still wearing my DPS armor, a lot of overkill damage going to waste there (it was still fine when I switched to defensive armor)

[red wyvern]

TC Form doing launch up damage is maybe out of place since Casters shouldn't be frontlining to get that miniscule damage

imo it could stun or push back akin to Aeroblast

[delicate timber]

Meteor and thundercloud form do feel really close together at least in DD; for zenith it will come down to how good the skill is when charmed.

[quaint flicker]

could be cool if wind played more into the cooldown resets that are seen in lbreath and combos

like if you land thundercloud directly it gets of cooldown faster

[surreal kiln]

Wind is pretty close to becoming a real tree now

[quaint flicker]

if aeroblast kills a mob using a wall it goes off cd .5s faster

[delicate timber]

its so close; its pretty viable when it has flame as a side tree but needs just a bit more to be self reliant (i'm speaking from playing it in DD though)

[quaint flicker]

wind walking through mobs gives cdr instead of vulnerability

[surreal kiln]

Per mob ???

Wind meta

[delicate timber]

you should be able to black mist to activate last breath early

[quaint flicker]

value doesnt matter i just think the cdr reset would make it really unique

[surreal kiln]

Ww would be super wonky but yeah skyhook cdr is alr pretty nice

[quaint flicker]

i mean i barely see anyone use wind walk outside of stunning elites and mostly as a movement ability same with skyhook mostly being movement rather than combat ability

wind suffers from not having many damage options but that could be mitigated with cdr resets instead of stacking more flat damage abilities like every other caster

[delicate timber]

wind walk is really cool on frost since it lets you get right into the middle of the mobs to use nova ava. I remember I relied on it a lot before I got maxed nova radius stats.

[quaint flicker]

gbolt gives cdr per block of distance gbolted to instead of the mostly useless damage it has now

or cdr per mobs stunned actually

makes more sense for the skill

[fallow plume]

bring back howling winds and make it give cdr for each mob pulled

[delicate timber]

it felt way more impactful then ice lance was when avalanche was a self sustaining skill. Frost having flexible abilities is my favorite part of the tree, it gave you run variety and let you adapt several play style adjustments. I think its why I never found frost to be boring.

But now choosing to take speed abilities will result in you coming up short on damage; same goes for dawn abils (I used to snap pick ward of light and bottled sunlight). Maybe its more balanced in the long run, but it makes the tree less fun to be limited like this.

so it was kind of a blessing to have bad spells on frost outside of avalanche since it made the game more engaging. Now that i'm forced into using bad spells they disappoint me.

[surreal kiln]

Ok my 1 am mind cooked this up

[quaint flicker]

yeah its a cool ability but wind would (for practical gameplay) rather another damage ability than another movement ability, so to not have to resort to making everything in cz damage based you could just add more benefits to the movement options (like cdr with combat based requirements)

[surreal kiln]

What if they made it so you could control each tick of ava

If u wanted to

Like u can do it auto by holding but u can also chose to use 1 tick at a time

[delicate timber]

so avalanche basically gets charges?

I don't hate that acutally; having flexible damage is really useful. Its what made ava such a good skill before, it did such a good job at bypassing carapace and overkill damage; 2 problems many other skills face.

being able to distribute avalanche where ever you want also helps the other frost skills that make puddles of ice; you can ice lance ava 2 mobs and still have more damage to use elsewhere.

[surreal kiln]

Yah

[teal plank]

Earth?? Wind??

[shy trellis]

we should add curse of jealous that turn player's charm, currency, mat drop rate to a0 level

[summer hazel]

earth's swap is the entire point of class' existance

wind isn't hyper needed but is cool

[teal plank]

Lmfao

[hollow wagon]

Curse of death: extends your respawn time to x, randomly every 40-80 seconds you die. Deaths to this curse do not reduce grave duration

[untold sand]

Cooler curse of death: you occasionally spawn random grey dungeon mobs that specificly target you. and if you go to a new room and they aren't dead. they'll respawn in the next room but strengthened

[ionic moon]

trident one 💀

[untold sand]

Just parry it.

[quaint flicker]

i think the f2 hoglin elites could use a nerf, they ignore stealth and dummy decoy, and i got lifelined with effective 300 melee ehp running earth, been 1 shot from full with 160ehp too, maybe its even bugged cause doing 200+ melee damage is crazy even with carapace/trancs buffs or whatever

[quaint flicker]

they even have more reach than most mobs (and fast movement speed after their ability) so its like the most anti melee mob in existance while doing nothing to ranged classes

basically have to spawn kill it before its ai kicks in or waste your lifeline every time you see one

[charred ravine]

Personally think the f2 Hoglin elite is the most tame one, it ignoring stealth is definitely a downside for melees but I've genuinely never died to it.

[quaint flicker]

if youre not melee its free but if you are melee its absurd

moth is just dont stand on the circle pigs are just hoglins but non one shotting damage and they teleport

[charred ravine]

agreed

[quaint flicker]

i mean honestly i didnt have a problem with it until today where i played taunt earth and got lifelined in 1 hit with 10 absorbtion hearts like how does that even happen

[charred ravine]

there's not much of a damage difference between an actual elite and a vengeful albino rat i think

[quaint flicker]

yeah 30% of this x2 cause of absorption so it did a minimum of 270 melee damage in a single hit

[charred ravine]

you might've been hit by something else as well

sometimes you die so fast and unpredictably you can't get an exact idea of what happened

unless you have le replay mod

[surreal kiln]

hoglin can ignore stealth is the main problem i think

[quaint flicker]

nah cause i still had the 10 absorption + full health after i lifelined so it had to have been 1 hit

[empty sentinel]

Surprising that the hoglins are more of a threat than the piglins surely

[coarse quartz]

eh

its just specific situations

[quaint flicker]

also this mechanic is kind of cooked unless its teleporting far on purpose

[lucid anvil]

It should disable it for that phase

That’s my opinion

[shy ibex]

If u dont move

Afaik it only tps far away

[glass cypress]

yeah this shit is annoying

[rough umbra]

it has a self buff or is bugged like hekawt

its damage feels really variable

ranges from half my health to hors

[dull heath]

Skill issue

[coarse quartz]

I think it's good

Except for the fact that it tp too far

Maybe it has a max amount of arena squares it can tp or smthn

Like 2

[quaint flicker]

it would be better if it like followed a path instead of teleporting anywhere so you can still chase it down instead of just relying on rng for it to tp close enough

or if the next teleport area was telegraphed or something

[sage ermine]

when it tps go to the opposite side and run to it when it tps close to you

[coarse quartz]

That is an extremely risky strategy considering it'd literally just rng where he goes

[sage ermine]

I dont think thats the case

[left phoenix]

erm it's probably for a long time now but
volley damage stat is uh
not the most impactful
(30% is maxed charm stat)

[surreal kiln]

i am sorry for doubting steel

i am trying ora set curently

this is good

[empty sentinel]

Yeah but we are not sure how to actually change it

[coarse quartz]

Nah steel is bad bro.. .

[coarse quartz]

Change to 100% mult like everything eosr

Else

I guess 80% now

[surreal kiln]

Gravity bomb raduis is sad but very good aoe

Dmg is good

With sharp

I didn’t get split arrow tho

Was running gravity + volley + sharpshooter

And split arrow

For charms

[glass cypress]

steel is pretty good now but doesnt seem op 😁

[left phoenix]

well the obvious change is to make the charm stat multiplicative
considering all other skills are multiplicative I think it's fair
in case it looks weird it can be displayed like 230(+69) % damage instead of 230%(+69%) damage
I wouldn't even mind if it is a plain nerf like going from (230+X)% to (200*(1+X))%, which at cap X=30% makes both equal, that's another problem of volley balance which I know nothing about

[charred ravine]

Make it like other classes 🥲

Volley Damage multiplier goes over the cap for some reason

30% is the overallcharm cap, and you can get 40% on a singular charm

Also you can max it instantly which doesn't feel fun to build

pretty goofy..

[charred ravine]

If volley got +80% overall instead of 30% additive damage it would be extremely similar to scout volley

But no 360

So yeah a zenith skill completely charmed is worse than a base class skill

Look at normal flame strike and zenith flame strike

This scout discrimination is enough to make a man shed a tear 🥲

I think nicknon mentioned that he didn't want to make volley meta but I think it would be decent, not meta, if the base cooldown got increased for damage

[rough umbra]

i will say though thats because mage is BAD

[coarse quartz]

i think bow aspect could be reworked too

volley already has a low cooldown, then a basically permanent -25%

so it just seems pretty hard to balance for no good reason

[jolly ibex]

+5% dmg to shooting abilts

[coarse quartz]

bow aspect just adding damage to regular bow shots would not be a bad idea considering how people really dont wanna play melee steel for some reason

it could encourage it and possibly make the regular steel playstyle more wide spread

something like +2 base projectile damage maybe, cuz things like screwdriver and witchbane could find better use

[stuck ice]

would be more interesting that bow aspect we have rn

wont save witchbane tho

[coarse quartz]

Bow Aspect Rework: Passively gain 3 levels of retrieval, and all projectile weapons gain 2 additional projectile damage, and 20% more projectile speed.

[quaint flicker]

throw rate would be more interesting than flat damage

[stuck ice]

from spellsteel perspective I think there should be just some proj dmg bonus when holding a proj dmg weapon

[quaint flicker]

wand aspect

[stuck ice]

well yes

[quaint flicker]

wouldnt change anything except you hold a different item

[stuck ice]

honestly it would change one thing

I could just bind sidearm to screwdriver and dont switch for carapace or sharp stack gaining

[jolly ibex]

Bow aspect :
Now throwable throw rate increased by 10% , while drawing bow gaining 40% speed , xbow gain 20% speed , shooting ability damage increase by 5%

[coarse quartz]

that affects like 2 kinda of weapons though

kinda boring

[coarse quartz]

the bow and xbow part are apparently too jank to implement

[jolly ibex]

uh ctm maps already have them tho

[coarse quartz]

which ones

also im not saying we cant i literalyl remember devs saying that

[jolly ibex]

trial of socesor

I think I spell wrong

but it just an idea

[coarse quartz]

i mean it'd be cool i guess

bows will just forever suck no matter what you do

in the end they are still just qc 1 crossbows that cant have multishot

[dusk bay]

Mob density increase in R3 doesn't help them either

Without piercing they just cannot keep up, killing one mob at a time crumbles in an environment like Zenith

[jolly ibex]

🤓 split arrow so it's 3 mobs

(not real)

[coarse quartz]

bows have to be

insanely statted compared to waht they are now

im talking like piercing 2 and +20% damage across the board or something

at least das what i tihnk

[surreal kiln]

make it piercing 1 and yeah

make termniator without the instra fire

shoot 2 arrows

[lucid anvil]

Also isn’t piercing broken

At least it is in gallery

[charred ravine]

on a bow no..

[hardy oriole]

not broken and if it was a bow it would make it bad

[charred ravine]

it's literally needed for them to be useful

[hardy oriole]

for gallery you need something that shoots fast (ravenclaw 🤯 )

[summer hazel]

damage increase yes
piercing no
let bows be unique, be stronger for time needed for use

[charred ravine]

The charm changes are pretty solid

way more convenient to build now

[charred ravine]

I would like to a write a formal apology to nicknon for ever doubting sidearm

[coarse quartz]

fr

also can envy at least keep your talisman'd tree

i dont see a point in ever picking it unless im rich asf

i also got tricked when i thought redundancy was free until you realize you need like 3 other actives from different trees in between your normal ability burst

[empty sentinel]

Fr

[coarse quartz]

.

This room needs to be removed/reworked like I'm sorry

[jolly ibex]

Ew why is he there

Oh ik cuz it detect you play steel

What’s full room image again

Is that spawner tweak in update

[coarse quartz]

Actually just horrible from start to finish I don't wanna be mean I got a lecture about that but bro this room has ridiculous spawner density, ranges, and a terrible environment to fight in. It has basically everything I dislike about zenith rooms, ridiculous spawner placements, in ridiculous places (the blaze spawners and that creeper spawner, also the spawners that are below you in certain areas), the dumb spawner ranges (this elite...) and the insane spawner density, and of course the classic "there is a pit at the bottom for mobs to pile in" except the pit is water which makes it 10x worse. This just makes this room maybe my least favourite room as of now? It is NOT fun.

[stuck ice]

sidearm doesnt go that far, he should detect me playing steel at 14 blocks max

[coarse quartz]

he doesnt detect anything he just spawns so far for no reason

i seriously dont know how this room got greenlighted for high ascensions

[stuck ice]

and yea, the room is not great to play

[jolly ibex]

What’s full image of room

[coarse quartz]

i dont have it

[jolly ibex]

I can’t recall which one is this

[coarse quartz]

its the one with vines and blazes in the vines

[jolly ibex]

[coarse quartz]

at the start of the room

with water to the left

[jolly ibex]

Is it go down from start

Or the one eye giant

[coarse quartz]

no not giant

[jolly ibex]

Or the many mini castle like room

[coarse quartz]

no

idk how to describe it

[jolly ibex]

Is it normal or elite

[coarse quartz]

oi thought that image was the most iconic

normal

[jolly ibex]

I think I missed one new normal room

Oh

[coarse quartz]

that blaze spawner

that spawns instantly

is just idk how the hell this was allowed in

[jolly ibex]

Ye I missed this one

xd

[coarse quartz]

off the start you have to deal with these blazes which can easily 1 tap you, about a mere 8 blocks below you is a double spawner that also will easily spawn without you even noticing and pern up to you, and the water there can also pile up mobs creating "death pits" which can be very annoying considering malediction exists.

literally just 3 blocks into the room you are instantly barraged

[fallow plume]

the end of this room is so bad id assumed it wouldve been fixed this week

[coarse quartz]

not to mention chronology on top of all of this

[coarse quartz]

dude

that elite spawner is like

i seriously cant understand

was this supposed to be some meme that was accidently put into the game?

and then to even get to the elites you have to proc like 6 other spawners

and then also parkour

[stuck ice]

"Certain stats, like Fire Duration, will no longer appear at high rarities. Existing charms with stats at these levels will see them downgraded, and the excess budget returned." If it is supposed to replace bad/unwanted stats on high rarity charms, then I don't understand why scrapshot recoil velocity is still on them.

textbook example of wasted stat

[empty sentinel]

Certain stats, like Fire Duration, will no longer appear at high rarities. Existing charms with these stats will keep them, but future charms from now on will not.

[left phoenix]

same
some spawner distance is unavoidably long
the entire room is just getting shot from miles away

[red wyvern]

u sure that isn't a bedwars map?

[stuck ice]

mb, didnt see the changed version

[empty sentinel]

Attempting to downgrade them last update is kind of what took the whole system down, so we're not touching that

For now, anyways

[stuck ice]

does high rarities mean only legendary?

cuz I just rolled scrap recoil epic

[jolly ibex]

Leg and epic

Welp details you can see the image or ask f

[empty sentinel]

Was pretty arbitrary

All fire/ice durations are excluded from epic/legendary, the ones that still have some niche use like cone angle or velocity are only excluded from legendary

Though this is subject to change as well

[stuck ice]

I see

[lone lichen]

Hooray another couple curses that mean auto restart

I like the concepts but the harsh effects they give seem blatently rng based and unfun.

Not everyone has 50 billion charms to pick the reverse trees curse . The ability cool down one isn't any better .

[coarse quartz]

lust isnt bad at all anymore

might be free

pessimism isnt even that bad

envy would not be bad if it just kept your talisman'd tree

[lone lichen]

I genuinely think a18 should be changed from 3 curses

[coarse quartz]

wdym

[coarse quartz]

i mean

this would lowkey make it an upside half the time ngl

envy should just randomly eat a tree idk

[left phoenix]

force you to take the orange wheel

[coarse quartz]

how does this even fit what envy means ngl

well ig the names are just made after

[molten sand]

Can someone say (or link if they were posted elsewhere) what the new curses do?

[surreal kiln]

What does envy do again

[coarse quartz]

Pessimism: If a teammate is below 50% heath you can't heal above 50% health, includinf absorp.
Envy: Basically removes ur current trees and gives you the three ones you don't have.
Redundancy: If you cast two abilities from the same tree in a row they have +50% longer cooldown for the next 8 seconds

[molten sand]

Thanks

[coarse quartz]

idk why envy says it "inverts" your tree

thats what the description says

[surreal kiln]

It’s envy since you envy the trees you don’t have

[coarse quartz]

ohhhh

pessimism is lowkey free

its just curse of death but easier

"play better"

[surreal kiln]

Redundancy might be free f3

[coarse quartz]

its not

think about it

every single time u wanna cast 2 things in a row u need another active

[surreal kiln]

You basically need a good left click

That’s not your tree

[coarse quartz]

so if u have 3 steel abilities you need 3 other actives

and u also have to wait for their cd's

[surreal kiln]

Not rly Ig if u have sidearm yes

Cuz you could go

[coarse quartz]

unplayable imo

[surreal kiln]

Let’s say

Flamestrike ice lance rune volley or spawner break meteor ice lance

[coarse quartz]

oh yeah if it matters
Lust (Rework): If you are more then 5 blocks away from the nearest teammate, every block beyond that you are away from them gives -8% damage, up to 80% or 10 blocks.

[coarse quartz]

in clear and vesp this is free so

[surreal kiln]

Curently from the old pool the only truly unplayable one was lust

[empty sentinel]

I wonder what happens if 2 players have pessimism and then both go under 50%

[ornate quest]

redundancy should be changed to 3 ability in a row because it just kills a lot of playstyle

[coarse quartz]

soft lcoked i think

[surreal kiln]

Is lust sloth death changed now

Or is that

Balance

Changes

[coarse quartz]

sloth is also kinda free

[empty sentinel]

It's in the changelog?

[coarse quartz]

it all went thru

[spare creek]

oh uhhhh

[left phoenix]

erm

[surreal kiln]

You think I have reading Comprehension

[coarse quartz]

yeah so basically

we did a duo run

so yeah

[empty sentinel]

Hilarious

I'd keep it

[coarse quartz]

its

[surreal kiln]

I would t

[coarse quartz]

kinda free honestly

it can keep it

[empty sentinel]

Maybe too free

[empty sentinel]

3 abilities in a row is really easy to avoid

[coarse quartz]

i need like a list of all the curses

i need to make a tier list

i LOVE tier lsits

[summer hazel]

redundancei s stupid, even if you are like that one guy who runs "adapt" build, you will still run into two actives, screwing you up.
make it "after casting 3 abilities"

[coarse quartz]

redundancy is just unplayable idk

theres no argument for it

[ornate quest]

2 is too hard 3 is too easy

[coarse quartz]

even if you "can" have actives for it you still have to have the rng to get ur abilities and the other ones

[ornate quest]

it might just be a impatience clone most of the time

without the lifeline disabling part

[surreal kiln]

Lust seems possible playable

Sloth seems ok

If you have high base speed

[ornate quest]

on second thought redundancy is an easier impatience

[surreal kiln]

Death is much better

Envy seems meh but okay

[ornate quest]

yea the half revive speed was quite silly

[fallow plume]

Healing one makes me glad speedruns aren’t meta anymore

My teammates would’ve hated me sitting at 30% hp with 20 absorption for steadfast

[coarse quartz]

tier list, pessimism goes in manageable, redundancy goes in unplayable, and envy goes in insta reset

[coarse quartz]

how

how are people

ok with envy

at all

you just lose your tree unless ur rich like bruh

[fallow plume]

Yeah Fasty can play like 4 trees or something

[coarse quartz]

i really thought

envy would like have smthn to do with ur teammates

maybe like any ability they have you cant pick

[summer hazel]

can we just rework curse of death to instead disable your lifeline slot

[coarse quartz]

that would e

lowkey worse then what it is now

[summer hazel]

just play better

[coarse quartz]

i think its fine now personally

[coarse quartz]

thats

what it is already?

[summer hazel]

not really

[coarse quartz]

yeah really

you cant play better without a lifeline zenith just does not allow it

[summer hazel]

2s grave time is near guaranteed death if you get caught into some bs (most likely malediction shenanigans) while without lifeline you can still be revived

[summer hazel]

I'll be honest with you, and it's weird saying that, but for once I think Potion injector does solve that issue

[coarse quartz]

mmmm idk i rarely die through lifeline

i think its fair rn

Curse of Envy (Rework): Abilities selected by teammates that you have are useless.

[summer hazel]

perma juan does nullify death

[coarse quartz]

it is NOT perma juan anymore

that was the golden days

but these damn parties are always like "noooo damage is more important on your charms stop skill issueing"" so i had to switch

sad times

[summer hazel]

surely 15 seconds downtime isn't something you can't fix by just afking

[coarse quartz]

idk

lifeline

any lifeline

just keeps me alive

ok not any

only the good ones ok

which are like 3. ..

[summer hazel]

Eternal Failure my beloafed

[coarse quartz]

eternal saviour

is good now imo

idk

its gotten so much its just impossible to be bad now

[summer hazel]

it's knockback still is meaningless, absorption is a pitiful joke as well

[coarse quartz]

ive used it in multiple runs and its good

nah the absorption is fire

and it gives 80% weaken around you

[summer hazel]

it's just a sidegrade to last breath

[coarse quartz]

its good if you have any mobility ability

you can just spam it to get out immediately

[summer hazel]

ah yes hold on let me recoil after statis while the 30 mobs at my location instantly hit me

[coarse quartz]

well

they dont instantly hit me personally

[summer hazel]

in my case I do pick Eternal Failure funnily enough, I just love calling it a failure

[coarse quartz]

i do this conistently

just recoil out

[summer hazel]

It's my go to lifeline for dd and cz only because it compliments my goofy ah palystyle

[coarse quartz]

how is cryobox still

so goddamn bad

did they even buff it at all ever

[fallow plume]

Don’t think so

[empty sentinel]

Yes

[coarse quartz]

does it give iframes yet? blank the hit yet?

[spare creek]

if that's the standard, the others are too strong IMO

[coarse quartz]

the mobs are too strong

any lifeline that doesnt meet those requirements is near useless because of how strong the mobs are (and aggresive)

[ornate quest]

it freezes nearby mobs which is alright

[coarse quartz]

i mean sure you guys can remove the iframes and hit blanking from lifelines

it cant go wrong

[ornate quest]

escape artist might be worse than cryobox because you dont get stealth if you are holding food

[fallow plume]

I think lifelines are as strong as they need to be for the content

Kinda has to blank the hit if some mobs are capable of doing more than all of my hp in a single hit

[quaint flicker]

yeah if it doesnt blank the hit its not really a lifeline its just a very op situational

hard to make sure you get hit specifically in the range of cryobox proc and not die in the process

[teal plank]

what

?????????

[coarse quartz]

You got a problem bud

[teal plank]

yea

[coarse quartz]

What is it

[surreal kiln]

ewhat the

[teal plank]

greed is the same tier as ??????? lust ??? ?

and death

[surreal kiln]

forgot this isnt group chat

[teal plank]

???

[coarse quartz]

Lust got reworked

You dumb dumbs

[teal plank]

its still bad

[surreal kiln]

gimme teirmaker list

link

rn

[teal plank]

permanent soul link to deal dmg is

[coarse quartz]

You guys have no team coordination

[teal plank]

not a fun mechanic

[coarse quartz]

I mean ur all muted maybe it's bad then

[teal plank]

no we just dont like sticking together clearing together every spawner = slower clear

[surreal kiln]

#screenshots message

[summer hazel]

it was changed, it's not so bad now

[surreal kiln]

hi

[teal plank]

yea buddy ok

[summer hazel]

just be near someone within 5 blocks, which is super easy to do

[coarse quartz]

its not an insult

i mean is it wrong

[teal plank]

yes

[coarse quartz]

you cant have the best team coordination if ur muted

[teal plank]

for a half muted party

theres 2 ppl talking

[coarse quartz]

having more wins then some1 else doesnt really mean anything

at least if they have a respectable amount of wins

[teal plank]

it does show consistency and coordiantion

[surreal kiln]

we have more then this

[coarse quartz]

well if you have a consistent team who has all the time in the world sure

[teal plank]

and the fact that our team probably have 3/4 top3 horn owner amounts

ok i worded

so dumbly

whateevr

[coarse quartz]

if i could have an optimal team constantly sure i would have that many

[surreal kiln]

idk if fourth has more then me cuz u guys kciked me for a day

[teal plank]

yep

kicked for lif

[surreal kiln]

i have like 20

[surreal kiln]

you are litary the number 1 sellar

[teal plank]

@coarse quartz was that tierlist steelpov

[surreal kiln]

i have to

[teal plank]

❌

[surreal kiln]

carry your ass every frun

oracore

[teal plank]

yapologist

[surreal kiln]

has too work his ass off saving you

[coarse quartz]

idk im not gonna argue over this im just tryna argue over the curses, simply put i can do 1-2 runs a day and with curses increasing RNG further it is hard to fit any wins in all the time

[teal plank]

WHATTTT

[coarse quartz]

i mean

yeah

[teal plank]

that wasnt meant to u manmonke the what

[surreal kiln]

oracore>raikiy>carnish all day

[teal plank]

das crazy

[quaint flicker]

nah glutony not an insta reset imo it basically just nullifies the abils you get for the floor (lose 3 but youll get 3 back anyway 9/10 times)

[summer hazel]

crazy

[teal plank]

i shouldve clipped the ambulance vesp

4 rez in like

[coarse quartz]

this is

[teal plank]

20 seconds

[surreal kiln]

boy u have 9trillion ehp

[coarse quartz]

lucky people opinions go crazy

[teal plank]

wheres the veps build w 500magic ehp

smh

[quaint flicker]

idk i intentionally dont leg my shadow abis on f1 so if i get glutony i end up losing like only 1

[coarse quartz]

wtfrick "you only lose 3 abilities surely you will get them back in the same floor!!!"

[coarse quartz]

ok well thats fair i guess

[surreal kiln]

thats just raikiy cope

for res

[coarse quartz]

but i dont wanna force myself to be constantly weaker just cuz there is the chance that i remove my abilities

that just seems like bad design

[surreal kiln]

can i have the teirlist

[teal plank]

ok but greed feels free as hell

[surreal kiln]

for this shiy

[teal plank]

idk what yall talking about

[surreal kiln]

please

[coarse quartz]

https://tiermaker.com/create/zenith-curses-16544801

[teal plank]

maybe on shadow its not

[coarse quartz]

thats

[teal plank]

since ur raw hp is kinda low

[coarse quartz]

-4% health right

[quaint flicker]

greed is free until you get 20x upgrade rooms and no ruin curse

[teal plank]

ye

[coarse quartz]

it is

not free

[quaint flicker]

ive had -36% ehp before so cooked up

[coarse quartz]

well its not horrible either

its unpleasent

as the tier says

[quaint flicker]

yeah its still autopick its just noticable

[surreal kiln]

i had

[teal plank]

id def say anchoring is way worse

[surreal kiln]

dependacy

[coarse quartz]

only for specific classes though

[surreal kiln]

and -44% hp greed

in the same run

[coarse quartz]

and anchoring can be free as an f3 option cuz majority of the time no one else will want abilities

[teal plank]

obscu is also

not that bad

[coarse quartz]

its

[teal plank]

its old a15 pretty much with a little bit more gambling

[coarse quartz]

too situational

maybe in f2 or f3 i will have all my abilities

but if im missing 2+ abilities i just really dont wanna pick it

[teal plank]

sloth is still one of the worst curses imo

even after the nerfs to it

[quaint flicker]

obscu can be free cause it gets effectively cancelled by prismatic or opportunity (or just get lucky)

[coarse quartz]

not anymore

its pretty free

imo

managable as i put it

[teal plank]

most likely unplayable as melee

[quaint flicker]

its better than sobreity probably

[teal plank]

envy might be the worst curse tho

[coarse quartz]

tbh anchoring goes from unplayable or auto pick

[teal plank]

i think we can all agro

[coarse quartz]

literally just depends on class

[teal plank]

agree

[coarse quartz]

yes

should be reworked for sure

[teal plank]

why would u ever pick it

if it didnt take ur tali tree

it would be autopick tho

[coarse quartz]

i get the whole 'adapt' shit but i really thought we left that behind months ago

[teal plank]

so its kinda interesting how u would balance it

[quaint flicker]

yeah envy is kind of just if you have 7 trees in your armory its free just adapt otherwise unpickable

[coarse quartz]

i mean the only way it can work is if another person in ur party gets it and ur two trees align together and ig u guys can swap builds

or just do that with urself if ur rich

[teal plank]

i mean prolly but like

thats again just praying for luck

its a weird idea

[coarse quartz]

i dont like it at all ofc

unpickable

[teal plank]

idk anyone who wouldnt run rigged/talismans on a15+

[surreal kiln]

i havent played new lust

[coarse quartz]

i mean i still put greed in autopick

its just unpleasent still

[coarse quartz]

wtf

[teal plank]

new lust in vesp and calli are porbably fine

[quaint flicker]

lust isnt uplayable its just annoying

[coarse quartz]

ruin in mangeable is actually wild

[surreal kiln]

befor it was

when i played

[teal plank]

ruin when all my abis ar ecommon 😂

also ruin got a nerf which is nice

[surreal kiln]

with twisteds now its ok

[coarse quartz]

so instead of upgrading

[surreal kiln]

befor it would be unpleasant

[teal plank]

still sucks

[coarse quartz]

you just keep ur abilities at common?

[surreal kiln]

this is caster pov

[teal plank]

i need to word my shit better

[coarse quartz]

for steel it sucks bad cuz rarity matters a lot

[teal plank]

that was to mock all my abils being common at vesp

[coarse quartz]

ruin is unplayable for me

cough cough its nebz !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[surreal kiln]

ruin is not unplayble

[coarse quartz]

ok

tbf

im including personal fun too

maybe you can still win but you are NOT havign fun with ruin

[quaint flicker]

ruin is playable on shadow cause charms are additive but for most casters its pretty terrible

[teal plank]

if the gap between raritys and dmg wouldnt be so big it would be fine ish

[coarse quartz]

well

i think the point of rarities is to make a big gap

[surreal kiln]

for shadw

oracore is gonna

[coarse quartz]

ngl

[surreal kiln]

kill mne

[teal plank]

anchoring s+ tier

[coarse quartz]

you would just have to make tierlists for each main tree

[teal plank]

yea

[surreal kiln]

oh i fofgro

to move achor

[teal plank]

it varies

alot

anchoring on shadow = free anchoring on caster = doom

[quaint flicker]

dependency > greed = death any day and impatience is unpleasent tier, also how is anchoring not autopick

[coarse quartz]

can gluttony be able to ignore twisted abilities

or would that be too free

[teal plank]

eh

prolly too free

[surreal kiln]

i forgor to change achor and death is bad if your not orcore

oracore

[quaint flicker]

just pick lifeline

[teal plank]

dependency + greed is like

a nice combo

[coarse quartz]

yeah

healing rate is effectively the same at a point

[teal plank]

less effective regen and less hp just cancel out

[coarse quartz]

ngl i feel like

we should get more static curses

like gluttony

that dont scale they just do something at the moment and you can forget about it later

[teal plank]

nah ngl new curse shouldve been ll block

[coarse quartz]

or temporary

[teal plank]

it would make sense

[coarse quartz]

ll block?

[teal plank]

lifeline

block

[coarse quartz]

meh

[teal plank]

kinda like anchoring

but for ll

[coarse quartz]

lifelines are too essential

[quaint flicker]

that is not how it works 😭

[coarse quartz]

at least to me

[surreal kiln]

?

[teal plank]

yapper yapper yapper hamburger

[surreal kiln]

yapacore

[coarse quartz]

like

[quaint flicker]

yeah i would put impatience at the top of unpleasant cause its annoying asf to play with even though its not actually that terrible

[coarse quartz]

they present you with situations in zenith that are just impossible to respond to without a lifeline

[teal plank]

can u check groupchat u smelly american

[empty sentinel]

You just gotta be patient

[coarse quartz]

for what

frozenearth

what is coming?

[teal plank]

erm me when i walk into the room and every spawner spawns mobs at the same time

[empty sentinel]

Maybe we need zenith blessings

[surreal kiln]

there should be

[empty sentinel]

Blessing of Patience: When a spawner is triggered, delay other nearby spawners from triggering for 1s.

[surreal kiln]

a transmutation

for curses

[coarse quartz]

oh nah

[surreal kiln]

ngl

[coarse quartz]

wait

that would go so HARD

WYNNCRAFT RAID BLESSINGS

YIPEE!!!!

[quaint flicker]

isnt that just twisted abil

[coarse quartz]

now can you combine curses and blessings into one thing?

[teal plank]

a32326747689 leaks

[coarse quartz]

well

i think it would be across all ascensions

i dont think buffing the player in high ascensions makes sense

ngl if they theoretically add "blessings" they could make a blessing that buffs you the less charm power you are using or smthn

and then people can stop wah wahing about charms

[teal plank]

buffing the player outside of maybe endless is not the best thing

especially if its like exclusively to one specific group of players

[coarse quartz]

i mean

i lowkey dont midn adding blessings

to higher ascension only

its just like are ascensions just supposed to be "the content gets better" or "the content gets harder"

[rough umbra]

considering the previous idea was just number scaling answer that question yourself

if you want better content with increased difficulty go play terraria

[spare creek]

you guys really took that poll literally didn't you

well I guess you didn't take the part that said it had no beraing on development literally

[rough umbra]

when thats said I always think by implication that it crossed your mind somewhat

especially after edd

but if it truly is off the table then oh great heavens

[spare creek]

it was never on the table

the question was essentially do players want more ascensions/progression or is it important that they are unique from each other

[rough umbra]

if scaling was never on the table what would have been implied by the first option where players say just want more ascensions over how unique they are

[coarse quartz]

Well the ultimatum was just more low quality ascension or no ascension at all in the poll

[rough umbra]

yeah what is “low quality”

[coarse quartz]

Not much cool stuff literally just stat buffs

[rough umbra]

it feels like it would be either mechanics or scaling i cant think of an in between

[spare creek]

yes but it was theoretical

[coarse quartz]

Well yeah

[spare creek]

i had already started on the basics for the code for curses and stuff before the poll was made

[rough umbra]

so just curious and somewhat on a whim?

its fine if so i just dont ever take anything that says hypothetical at face value

[spare creek]

i wonder what

is purely out of curiosity to see player opinion on a design element
means

[coarse quartz]

Ok well what is my answer, are ascension supposed to be a pure difficulty increase or just an expansion in the content

[molten sand]

In Pi's defense, the post was pretty clear

[spare creek]

uh both?

[rough umbra]

its literally quite clear i was just skeptical

maybe overstepped too

its chill we have an answer

[coarse quartz]

So could a concept like boons be added in future ascension?

[charred ravine]

silly hypeace

[coarse quartz]

Something that just helps the player

[molten sand]

Boons, like rerolls, would most likely be something that works on all ascensions imo

Or they would need to be a tradeoff for more difficulty

[spare creek]

theoretically yes but probably not

[coarse quartz]

Idk

Then

[molten sand]

And yeah I don't know if I would like that (if it works randomly) cause rng

[coarse quartz]

With the way zenith is going with curses if we just keep getting debuffs at a point idk if it will really be fun

[rough umbra]

to be fair it wouldnt be a higher ascension if you get tools to make it easier

[charred ravine]

Guys what if vengeful and carapace didn't exist in zenith

just a silly thought

[molten sand]

yes please

[rough umbra]

but that does question if making the content better is gonna become impossible at some point

[teal plank]

https://tenor.com/view/cap-gif-26420892

why tf is there

"cap"

[rough umbra]

heaven is cap

[coarse quartz]

I think I can deal with one more major debuff but it would be a whole lot more fun to get a power boost

[molten sand]

It always depends on the addition you make

[rough umbra]

yeah but it is concerning if we keep getting debuffed, maybe something with tradeoffs that increases engagement would work

[spare creek]

as sky said if we do something like that it probably won't be tied to ascensions

[coarse quartz]

Fair

I wanna see something like that soon

[rough umbra]

i like that thats a possibility

in any case these rng-tied curses don’t feel great for the future as they are right now though

[charred ravine]

hypeace go back to hospital or do zenith with me

the choice is yours

[coarse quartz]

We should get zenith modifiers

[rough umbra]

i am having a great time giving feedback on celestial zenith (my laptop is going to die

[coarse quartz]

Bosses cast abilities 2x as quick but have 25% less health

[charred ravine]

how great is this time you're speaking of?

[coarse quartz]

Me me ill do zenith

[charred ravine]

brood try not to give an opening challenge

[rough umbra]

a18 being a15 with 🎲 and quite empty otherwise

to be blunt

[coarse quartz]

Idk I'd rather buff the content further then nerf the player

[rough umbra]

maybe more curses or balancing with more time can make it more streamlined but the gambling bugs me

[coarse quartz]

Curses are fine and pretty cool but should end here probs

[rough umbra]

doesnt feel like an engaged choice more than a true gamble

[molten sand]

My favourite ascensions are the ones that increase the complexity of the content more so than straight up nerfs to the player

[molten sand]

I think curses are a great idea but maybe they shouldn't be so tied to ascension RNG as they are now, the temporary gain a curse to obtain a buff idea seemed nice (like Chaos in Hades)

[spare creek]

not sure if any devs have mentioned this yet but the original plans for the expansion included a few more ascensions that were focused on adding stuff to the content but in order to get things out we had to postpone them

[coarse quartz]

Oh ok

I mean that's fine

I wouldn't wanna rush them if they aren't good yet

[molten sand]

That sounds nice

I mean yeah take all the time you need if it's more cool content

[quaint flicker]

all i want is a boss buff 🙏

like clear got harder from these ascensions but outside of bad rng bosses are identical 15 through 18

[spare creek]

i think they'll be pretty cool when they finally come out but will be a lot of work

[delicate timber]

I disagree, since I don't play shadow and already can do very little to meaningfully contribute in boss. I think its fine if the bosses become a little bit harder, but if they become to crazy then zenith just turns into shadowdancer being the main character and every body else just watches on the sidelines.

[quaint flicker]

steel is also very viable in bosses

[delicate timber]

sure I guess, but if the bosses became too hard would steel really be able to solo?

[quaint flicker]

yeah ngl i dont understand that shadow is already very meta for bosses, making them harder isnt going to make 4 shadows meta

[quaint flicker]

yes you can survive insanely well with the range of steel

[delicate timber]

its more so that I don't want even more runs to live and die of how good your shadow is.

[quaint flicker]

i mean i guess but its meant to be end game content not every run should be an easy comp

[delicate timber]

I am biased because I play frost and am unable to do anything in 2/3 boss fights (I can help in broodmother, thats it)

well I used to be able to help in vesp, but after the nerfs my impact is very inconsequential

[quaint flicker]

i think damage cap changes already made it so casters can do okay in bosses

nowhere near as fast as shadows but if you can do a big meteor every 10s itll be over in a few minutes

[delicate timber]

well the damage cap means you can hit the boss without it being pointless, but vesp has like 30k HP and my full burst is barely over a 1000 and I have long cooldowns (with a 14 second avalanche cooldown and the spell doing about 500-800 damage on average it makes its DPS on vesp 35/57 which is uhh not good). Not that its a bad thing balance wise that frost cannot solo bosses, I'm just saying it feels bad to play at that point of the run.

flame does much better then frost vs bosses though, it has more sustain and can somewhat reasonably kill them if you are strong enough.

dawn might be better now that spark of inspiration was buffed. Wind is even more useless in boss then frost is

[delicate timber]

how good does steel do into f1 boss though?

from my perspective f1 boss is where pretty much all of the problems come from in cz. Its such a brutal DPS check and you have very little time to set up your trees.

[quaint flicker]

yeah f1 boss is just flawed in many ways

you can do f1 boss in vanilla melee or if you get rapid/sharpshooter in f1 you ahve dps

[surreal kiln]

i have atleast a basic set for all 7

[rough umbra]

do you have 300 canadian dollars

[surreal kiln]

@quaint flicker hit this man up

[surreal kiln]

ora does prob acually no he is prob in debt

but he prob does

[fallow plume]

wasnt envy supposed to be f1 only?

i just got offered it on f2

[ionic moon]

what does the new curses do

[glacial sun]

doom

I will relay this to pi

[fallow plume]

has some really funny consequences

u can get envy from that new prismatic too

so steve took that then got envy after already having all his flame abils

[jolly ibex]

Abuse

[lone lichen]

btw if you get curse of envy and then get blue wheel to unlock a tree , nothing happens

probably a bug , but i think it should give u a 4th tree

[teal plank]

isnt ruin also supposed to be f1

[quaint flicker]

pessimism maybe should let you heal to 55% or something so you dont get softlocked at 50% if two people pick it

[surreal kiln]

I little late to this but if your team is competent Andy. Have above like 10% speed you can outrun any flower power

The healing can be somewhat annoying

[surreal kiln]

Dawn is terrible in boses

It’s like beyond terrible

Wind preforms better then it even in f3

[coarse quartz]

very good

[surreal kiln]

And frost just doesn’t have great dot

It’s a very interesting Jayant dmg clad

It’s the main thing it has over flame

[delicate timber]

damn even spark of inspiration is not enough. Can we make Rblessing do like 90% more damage 🥺

[coarse quartz]

steel and shadow tied for calli, steel is better in brood 1000%, and shadow is better in vesp

[surreal kiln]

With flame u can’t instantly delete anything in a 10 block raduis

[coarse quartz]

i mean lbottle isnt even that bad

[surreal kiln]

But it has more sustain

[coarse quartz]

and the supports alright

[surreal kiln]

It’s very meh

With deto it’s good

Bits that jsut deto

Being op

[coarse quartz]

blessing should be reworked into just speed and resistence ngl

[surreal kiln]

Make deto have like 1/2 of its dmg and the skill will be fine

[delicate timber]

sustain matters so much more now with the cooldown nerfs. After playing, just a little bit I think the cooldown nerfs are acutally far worse then the DPS nerfs for frost. Don't get me wrong, losing half of my DPS in a month is super bad but compared to slower avalanche its nothing.

[surreal kiln]

The damage buff is alr low

And I need it

[coarse quartz]

its so dumb to balance

[surreal kiln]

Dps and sustain are the same thing ??

It’s sustained damage over time

Frost just has near instant dmg

If Ava jsut had a slightly shorter cd

It would be fine

[delicate timber]

ya i'm just treating "DPS" and just damage as the same thing here

[surreal kiln]

I don’t think frost is bad at all rn

Flame will be perfectly fine if they change deto

The class is deto

[delicate timber]

I've lost more then half of my DPS btw, I just mean that raw damage is roughly half of what it was pre additive changes / charm nerf

[coarse quartz]

and for 2/3 of the content run time, the clear, you are more important so

[surreal kiln]

When I checked I lost like 1/3

I got like 3 godly gravity bomb charms so now I just need sharpshooter charms to play steel

Steel is super cool rn

[coarse quartz]

steel with deto might be better then a flame i cant even lie

[surreal kiln]

It’s like it used to be as all rounder

But it acually is a good all rounder

But befor it was just too bad at everything

Mainly just clear

[delicate timber]

it feels more like 1/3 of the time because of how late you get your abitlies online 💔

[coarse quartz]

i guess

[delicate timber]

frost needing not only a triple abitily combo but also EVEN MORE spells to supplement lost damage is so though.

[rough umbra]

insert clip of both steels dying to nothing a second before vesp dies

[surreal kiln]

icebreaker isn’t as needed anymore imo

[coarse quartz]

its the players not the tree 😔

[surreal kiln]

“I don’t trust manmonke to dps” -bumkers

[coarse quartz]

bro bumkers dies more then me bruh

no fighting here tho guys

lets get back to feedback

[teal plank]

Bro manmonke 😭😭

[coarse quartz]

bro i solo'd brood yesterday

basically

[surreal kiln]

What is this

I just noticed

[teal plank]

My soul dies a bit more each time i read this

[surreal kiln]

This is jsut blantantly wrong

[coarse quartz]

dude

[teal plank]

Oracore on shadow mogs all the classes

[rough umbra]

this is not an accomplishment

[coarse quartz]

my gravity bomb can just get both weakpoints now

[surreal kiln]

Not rly

[coarse quartz]

and then i shoot down the other side

and then burst down boss

with rf

its so free

[teal plank]

Hell yea

[surreal kiln]

Brood and calli yes

[coarse quartz]

this is how "easy" it is idk about faster

[surreal kiln]

Vesp steeel is rly good for

[coarse quartz]

i think in brood steels probs faster

[surreal kiln]

It’s not

Atleast for pookiecore

[delicate timber]

shadow can still 1 tap the core of brood?

[rough umbra]

im gonna be honest manmonke talks all this shit and in every run ive done its a shadow or caster doing almost all of the work

at all times

[coarse quartz]

ok bro

[rough umbra]

i dont know where he pulled this out of

[surreal kiln]

Erm don’t tell him

[coarse quartz]

i do runs without u gang

[rough umbra]

even dawn with deto is soloing brood faster than him

[teal plank]

LOL

[surreal kiln]

The time it takes to line up your grab bomb and use it oracore is on the next phas

[coarse quartz]

ok yeah im wrong

[surreal kiln]

Phase

And your not 1 shorting 1500hp cores easily

Shoting

Legs

I mean

[coarse quartz]

gravity bomb

can get both legs

not both legs

i mean both weakpoints on one leg

[surreal kiln]

Yeah but not without good abils

[coarse quartz]

mmm maybe thats fair

[teal plank]

I need a clip of this ngl might be cooking if its true

[surreal kiln]

Last time I played steel

I got forced to take sloth

[rough umbra]

it is 60 damage legendary x2 at base

[coarse quartz]

@dusk bay and kcalblack are my witnesses bro i LITERALLY just solo'd brood yesterday

[rough umbra]

it is pretty feasible to one shot if good level

[surreal kiln]

Got a total of 1 abil by end of f3

[coarse quartz]

besides AOE i just got every weakpoint pretty much

[rough umbra]

but like the setup time is a concern against a shadow

[teal plank]

Whats cd

With charms

On grav bomb

[rough umbra]

22 base

[coarse quartz]

on gbomb?
like 16 secs

[rough umbra]

*0.7

[surreal kiln]

But shadow can 1 tap legs

[coarse quartz]

true

idk

[surreal kiln]

Half the time

[coarse quartz]

i played shadow 9 years ago

maybe my perception is skewed

[surreal kiln]

It doesn’t 1 tap anymore

Without taunt

But oracore uses

Flurry

[coarse quartz]

still find steel safer at least by a long shot

[surreal kiln]

For f3

F2

To 1 shot

[coarse quartz]

also lowkey volley useless now

[rough umbra]

regardless i dont really see this steel phenomenon?

[coarse quartz]

im just picking skyhook

[surreal kiln]

Oracore hasn’t died in 40 runs

[rough umbra]

even things like the rf damage i never really see that effectively

[coarse quartz]

i dont understand how u dont

[rough umbra]

its either all deto clearing or my elite finisher is on half of the elites