Celestial Zenith Feedback Thread

[surreal kiln]

problem curently its either frost can delete elites and be godly or cant and be meh

[summer hazel]

Avalanche is the issue,
Theres a massive damage tax on all other abilities because of avalanche
Theres no reason to build other skills because ava + nova is the nuker way that does the job
We need to be freed from curse of avalanche

[delicate timber]

ava is also taxed by icebreaker. icebreaker is +70% damage at leg that is completely insane for ONE passive to have

if icebreaker was made less necessary then you can bump up the base damage of every frost skill across the board

[summer hazel]

That's fair ice breaker should get shot too

Though I still belive ava is the biggest culprit and rework is needed

[delicate timber]

frost being overreliant on ice breaker is a relic of DD. In DD you have all of the time in the world to find ice breaker + everything else

but in zenith if you don't have IB on floor 1 you can't kill anything with any spell

well you can kill stuff, just not with frost abilites!

the one thing about an icebreaker nerf is that it would make getting frost as side tree be even worse then it already is (and its already the worst side tree to get for almost every tree). So frost would need at least 1 universally good new passive to fix this (like how earth at least has 2 good passives that you can take even though you don't want any other yucky earth abilities)

[surreal kiln]

its 60% dmg

iirc

of wait buffs

but still only like 1 set has

or will have

[delicate timber]

ya buffs (even though it acutally does way less damage then before thanks to multiplication change)

[empty sentinel]

Frost only having 2 passives :sad spongebob:

[delicate timber]

I would almost call icebreaker UNDERPOWERED right now but the truth is just that its frost's main spells that are underpowered and it was being hard carried by ice breaker + ava.

ice breaker still pales in comparison to detonation; even though it has an insane +70% damage already

[fallow plume]

Deto is so silly

[delicate timber]

wait I know, just give detonation to frost!

the flames have had it good for to long

[fallow plume]

It’s so funny how getting flame as a tree practically doubles my clear ability

[coral saffron]

truh

[fallow plume]

To the point where I was looking for deto lbottle kitchen sinks for a while

[coarse quartz]

true honestly

deto is too good to just delete

idk make it a universal passive LOL ?

actually deto could be turned into an aspect ngl

instead of wand you could choose deto

idk whats better ngl i aint ever played caster

[fallow plume]

Let people pick more than one tree at a time so I can get Dawn and flame every run

[delicate timber]

frost has nearly triple clearing power if it gets flame as a side tree and thats the only way it can be good right now

frost gets to run great REAL spells like flame strike and pyroblast and do at least some damage with avalanche thanks to deto and Pmastery

it says a lot when your power spike as a class is getting some uncharmed abitlies from a completely different tree.

but as it is right now uncharmed flame is nearly as good as a maxed frost

[dull heath]

could we lower the noise on gravity bomb

it is nuking my ears

[fallow plume]

Can we get the stats for a18 release like we got after cz release

[delicate timber]

its been 2 days

[empty sentinel]

🔥

I gotta say though, tree balance is a wheel that’s always turning

Always something new to balance

[fallow plume]

II was referring to the stats being released in general after the first week

I assumed that was implied by directly comparing it to the original release

[surreal kiln]

i disagree with this

that is not true

[delicate timber]

I don't want it to be true ether 😭

[delicate timber]

my hottest take on this matter is to focus tree balance on zenith over depths. Sunset depths, keep 6player mode as the new normal and have it be a mostly for fun thing (people can still do serious 4 player runs for leader boards)

6 player EDD is epic I don't wanna wait another year to play it again 🥺

also I think the buffs to the tree where great for DD (although most of them don't do anything in zenith), so its not like DD's meta is in that bad a of a place right now, at least compared to zenith.

[surreal kiln]

flame isnt as oppserive as you think its mainyl jsut for this week

due to the charms being extra op

since with frost u dont gain so much extra from this

[delicate timber]

thats fair

[surreal kiln]

cuz curently people with 2 abils setcan make it 3

[coarse quartz]

steel is gonna have a feast when charms update

cant wait

[surreal kiln]

ora was doing some testing befor with it im intrested

[delicate timber]

how did steel become the new third best tree

[surreal kiln]

its always been overlooked im ngl

well other then

first 2 weeks

[surreal kiln]

how its gravity bomb

i saw bumky had a set for it earlyier is it funny or good

[red wyvern]

sacrificing Depths balance for Zenith is a terrible idea

especially when you can simply make the gameplay of both of them functionally similar

they are already similar in abilities and how the format goes

[delicate timber]

making them the same gives up what makes zenith unique

[red wyvern]

Zenith would have Ascensions keeping it unique

Depths gets endless

unfortunately Zenith gameplay will only balanced if it at the very least loosely mimics Depths gameplay

the trees were designed for Depths gameplay

[coarse quartz]

goated

[red wyvern]

so you are either adapting Zenith to the Depths system or making a new system

[coarse quartz]

best steel skill by a longshot in every category, including viability'

[red wyvern]

fr

[delicate timber]

also abitlies have different base damage in zenith / dd, that can already balance things somewhat

[red wyvern]

yeah doing that makes sense and works

[delicate timber]

zenith having charms and delve points being frontloaded makes its meta completely different then the slower paced slow ramping DD

[red wyvern]

unfortunately charms in Zenith are a balancing nightmare unless you bite the bullet and introduce hand made charms like what the rest of R3 has

[delicate timber]

in DD you can play with 0 abilities for 50 floors or so. In zenith you just die in f1 if nobody on your team has abilities. You are not going to beat delved mobs without added abitlies; even if you where completely insane at the game chrono makes it physically impossible since theres too many mobs to kill with just a sword.

[red wyvern]

I can appreciate the "gets going immediately" vibe that Zenith tries to go for, but it's a pretty difficult vibe to put onto the Depths system without erasing a huge chunk of Depths' RNG factors

if you ask me, you should be able to guarantee your randomly assigned starting ability and increase the length of the clear to 20 rooms per floor

[delicate timber]

depths has super little RNG expect for clense rooms. With your new 1 time reroll you get even more RNG softy since you can avoid a lock

[quaint flicker]

chrono is cooked if you dont have good aoe but a team of 4 can handle f1 just fine without any crazy abilities

also makes torch gameplay real if its really that bad (that one f2 room with a 30 shield spawner)

[delicate timber]

ya having 4 players makes it possible but its sad for that one dude who has to just AFK until they get abitlies

[red wyvern]

Depths has intricacies in its ability RNG meta that are seemingly absent in Zenith unfortunately, like the necessity to secure specific active slots over other active slots/passives

being offered a lifeline early Depths but also being offered a cornerstone ability of your build in the same reward versus Zenith giving your Steelsage 30 Frostborn abilities to choose from and then offering upgrade rooms for the entirety of floor 1 are definitely differing experiences between the two contents

Zenith also being an inherently bloated environment relative to Depths and the room design of Zenith being far more "unhinged" are contributing factors to bad Zenith balance and explains the current domination that Casters have in the clear over any other potential playstyle

Shadow melee versus a horde of 24 mobs with a combined HP of 5,000

[delicate timber]

you just take lifeline everytime

you ideally are flexible in DD and can play any of the 4 trees you get (which is possible do to lack of charms and much cheaper gear)

[red wyvern]

however there is a chance that cornerstone ability is denied on future rewards, said cornerstone ability could give you the necessary power to reduce or even remove the amount of times that your lifeline would have activated
this is the Depths ability selection meta that I want for Zenith but it isn't there

you can justify both choices in Depths, but in Zenith there is so much stuff that the enemies can do that end up whittling down your justifications for abilities

also revive system plays into this

[fallow plume]

At the very least I wish you could remove an ability in the start room instead of being made to wait till boss (or potentially longer on lower floors)

Rn if a frost gets automatically given a swap ability at the start wtf do they do

[delicate timber]

ya you should be able to avoid losing runs to the small chance you get a lock at the start

even if its just a toggle to NOT get the free abitily that is fine

[red wyvern]

more of a problem revolving around Zenith balance tbh, Depths Casters might hurt a little with a blocked swap slot but can still provide a lot for the team

[empty sentinel]

What does this mean

[fallow plume]

well tbf depths also just isnt hard until like f10 or something

[coarse quartz]

fr

just

dont give a shit about depths

W

[fallow plume]

i think being able to remove an ability at the start is at least a good start towards mitigating some of the rng bs

[quaint flax]

Honestly I have a lot more fun in depths than zenith, I’d definitely not like to see it removed

[coarse quartz]

(they ltierally have different values)

[quaint flax]

I am charm jealous, too little time to invest to see and play the high ascensions

[fallow plume]

i dislike depths myself but i definitely dont think it should be removed

[red wyvern]

endless Depths has its appeals, those appeals are absent in Zenith

[fallow plume]

i can definitely see the appeal, it just isnt for me

[red wyvern]

so unless you add Endless Zenith, Depths should not get shafted

then again Zenith's messy balance is why people still prefer Depths

[fallow plume]

i do sometimes wish a longer version of zenith was available

finally getting really good rng then you only have like 10 minutes to use them feels bad

[coarse quartz]

depths was

ok

[flat venture]

uh i think

avalance shouldnt just be ticktickticktick and zzzzz

like it can be slow multiple ticks

that spreads with ice

[agile rock]

we need to double the tree count

[coarse quartz]

never cook again

[agile rock]

no

[coarse quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/yuji-itadori-jujutsu-kaisen-fortnite-dance-griddy-funny-gif-13062414844888783357

[agile rock]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kitten-speech-bubble-speech-discord-gif-25192162

[delicate timber]

make balance changes without worrying about them making a DD class too OP.

if it means making another zenith tree viable

like if dawn needs buff (and it needs buffs) then buff dawn without worring about it becoming to powerful in DD (

[coral saffron]

i would love to have 6 player mode all year round

its so fun

[lucid anvil]

I disagree - Ice currently is forced to play squishier sets and push in more to be able to deal it's damage. It's more aggressive in nature due to avalanche's short range and is currently forced to play bis magic (no ehp) to be able to do anything. I can't even kill things in vesp with twisted ava and bis magic damage. I agree that frost needs higher base damage abilities outside of avalanche, but in it's current state, as someone who mains frost, I feel like it's in a horrible spot right now.

[delicate timber]

avalanche no longer does has a clean 90/90 split now its sad 90/72 this bothers me way more then it should

[delicate timber]

also I agree with everything Niam says here. Frost is completely useless in bosses

DAWN has better boss DPS since 1 Rblessing (even after all of the nerfs) will still do more then frost can

[left phoenix]

It'd be cool if frost can be a consistent dps caster as oppose to flame being bursty caster

[ionic moon]

erm im here to say that curse of lust is kinda bs ngl

[lucid anvil]

flame is more consistent imo

[rough umbra]

youd have to hit both on the head for that one

[lucid anvil]

You are able to rotate it's abilties

[delicate timber]

ya flame is the consistent class, its spell have super fast cooldowns

[lucid anvil]

^

[left phoenix]

I know
I'm saying it'd be cool if it's this way

[lucid anvil]

Ohhh yes

Also the cooldown on ava ruined frost even more

[rough umbra]

i would just keep frost bursty

[lucid anvil]

Frost being bursty is good

I actually like that

[rough umbra]

flame has too much raw damage and deto is a whole other thing that would need to be fixed

[lucid anvil]

But I think ava's cd is too long now

[rough umbra]

frost is burst

[delicate timber]

what about making it so spell CDs are nerfed to 50% instead of the abysmal 30% they are right now (this also helps ava a little)

30% spell CDR feels like its balanced around flame and not the other 6 trees

[lucid anvil]

^

[rough umbra]

still gets cycled by chrono and would still be a one trick

[lucid anvil]

I definitely agree

[rough umbra]

actually making both consistent is just the best

[delicate timber]

nobody has talked about earth (I wonder why) but it is hurt just as bad as frost is from its swap having its cooldown nerfed so much

earth is just like frost in that, it is all in on its swap ability since its the best thing you have.

[lucid anvil]

Earth, is actually in a decent place for what it is ngl

[rough umbra]

“for what it is”

[lucid anvil]

It's a tank class. Based around absorbing hits

What more is there

[rough umbra]

i dont think it got hit too bad but since its all raw damage MELEE on higher cd it doesnt uh

it still ewrath bot

[lucid anvil]

Yeah it is

However, ewrath is really nice and since tank sets haven't been changed much I think it's in a good place

[delicate timber]

earth having melee stuff jammed into its kit holds it back a lot. It has no use for melee damage since you can't invest in defense and attack damage at the same time

[lucid anvil]

The ewrath uptime was way too big for how good it is

[delicate timber]

and shadow has little use for earths melee skills (then theres earthquake )

[lucid anvil]

But I wouldn't take my word for it

I don't play earth main

[delicate timber]

its okay nobody does

[rough umbra]

slot bias here is crazy too earth actives just lose instantly

[lucid anvil]

bulwark is nice

[rough umbra]

passive

[lucid anvil]

thats about it

[maiden flare]

i love bulwark ;3

[lucid anvil]

yes

[delicate timber]

crushing earth VS advancing shadows is teh single least balanced thing in both DD and zenith

[lucid anvil]

how are you comparing those man 💀

[maiden flare]

are there like any earth mains

[delicate timber]

crushing earth has nothing going for it under any circumstance; its not even a good carapace breaker

[lucid anvil]

Not anymore

It's a util tree

if you play it, you're trolling

[left phoenix]

at least in DD if you get earth + shadow you can still do decent melee damage when building full tank
idk if it is viable in cz though probably not

[quaint flicker]

earth is very viable but in a good group dps is shrimply better so it falls off

[delicate timber]

I mean thats the shadow half of the combo being good

[fallow plume]

tbh i wouldve said the opposite

[left phoenix]

yeah you'd need all the shadow passives

[delicate timber]

oh is earth the last tree left that is missing an active? (its lifeline)

[rough umbra]

also if the plan is boosting frost actives outside of ♿, due to (fire tick? deto?) against cara flame is disproportionately better at clearing

[fallow plume]

in a group with worse clearing id rather have another person with some amount of clear and some dmg to boss but yesterday i was fine to play earth when playing with ss jeta rolldown cos we had 2 flames and shadow already

[delicate timber]

shadow just got spawner break (and its pretty good as far as spawner breaks go)

[rough umbra]

same with earth

[maiden flare]

shadow spawner break is amazing

i love it

[lucid anvil]

Here's the thing, my only experience with the new content is high ascensions. I ran a16 and a17 a couple times and the rest of my clears have been in a18. Good flame goes a long way compared to any other class

[maiden flare]

it does like 90 damage ish

[lucid anvil]

1 shadow and 3 flames or 2 flames and a dawn is probably best for regular clears

[left phoenix]

is shadow spawner break secretly broken
among all spawner breaks
I feel like it's way more impactful than other choices

[lucid anvil]

It is

Due to the weakness amplifier

[delicate timber]

6 player mode is also fine for LFG too; I can consistently get good runs with completely random players who half of them have only played a couple of EDD runs in their lives. So much less stressful then 4 player EDD (where class comp is a big deal and you are screwed if your shadow dies)

[fallow plume]

yeah weakness will probably be reduced to 25% at twisted if i had to guess

bc 50% weakness is so strong

or seems like it is

[delicate timber]

its only melee weakness the description is wrong

[rough umbra]

no. return to 4 steels.

[maiden flare]

it would be so fun to have 3 shadosw with phantom force then 1 guy with convergence and it just deals 300 dmg per spawner break

[rough umbra]

does convergence stack between teammates

[maiden flare]

PLEASE @shy ibex we should try this sometime

[delicate timber]

sundrops is still better imo, but its easily #2 right now

[rough umbra]

same abil

[fallow plume]

im really curious to know how viable it is for clearing

[lucid anvil]

no

[quaint flicker]

i doubt its very good vexes end up targetting 1 mob half the time

[left phoenix]

oh really
I did not rank sundrop that high

[lucid anvil]

Sundrops is best rn

Very good

[fallow plume]

its great if you have charms, still pretty good if u dont

[delicate timber]

sundrops res adds up big time and you can make it always drop a drop if 2 people have sundrops

[lucid anvil]

Dawn is probs #3 class rn just because of support 👍

too bad lbottle is useless

[fallow plume]

twisted lbottle still does a little bit but yeah

[lucid anvil]

sorry alae, ur nerfed

[left phoenix]

great to see that

[fallow plume]

imo twisted lbottle rn is what i think leg lbottle should be

[delicate timber]

number 3 is still not steel? damn

[lucid anvil]

Only issue is lbottle should still be viable and it's not

steel is -3

useless!!!

[fallow plume]

depends, people claim traditional steel is good now but i havent played with any so i wouldnt know

[jolly ibex]

twsited lb doing 110 dmg

which is fine

I have deto bot

[rough umbra]

twisted gravity bomb doing more than my avalanche

[delicate timber]

steels can cook, i've seen oracore solo vesp with scrapshot and only scrapshot

[rough umbra]

[quaint flicker]

yeah its 3, 2 in bosses

[left phoenix]

does -3 means it's 4 places above number 1

[empty sentinel]

Out of curiosity, do yall think dawn should
1️⃣ Be completely focused on supportive abilities
2️⃣ Have some of its own offensive capability as well

[lucid anvil]

2

[delicate timber]

be support for DD (like it is now) and have lightning bottle be viable in zenith thanks to charms

[lucid anvil]

Every class should be viable

[rough umbra]

i do not want to see anything sentenced to hierophant again

[fallow plume]

ngl lbottle was already enough offensive capability before the additive rework

[lucid anvil]

^

[rough umbra]

it already seems as though thats the direction dev has been going for wind

[delicate timber]

I think lightning bottle should be a super strong dawn abitliy, but only when its invested in so that your not giving casters a completely free 0 slot ability.

[lucid anvil]

It actually did damage 🤯 it wasn't crazy or anything but it was good enough to clear on it's own a bit which is good

All classes should have that capability

[fallow plume]

ok actually yeah i agree

[lucid anvil]

Which is also why I thought wind was a in a bad place

[delicate timber]

fr. Buff bramble shell charms so that even earth can clear (thorns cleric in CZ lets make it happen)

[lucid anvil]

I agree

just dont make it OP for shadows

that's the issue

[quaint flicker]

do they know about earth changes

[delicate timber]

bramble shell needs some sort of buff/rework

[left phoenix]

the idea of supplementary trees doesn't really work in cz I feel, because it'd be hard to charm such setup
in DD it's fine as mix and match some abilities doesn't put you in a disadvantage while in cz you'd be charmless (or you just have every combination of charms)
so it's fair for each class to have some form of individuality

[delicate timber]

this, thats why it was a good thing to have things like aeroblast wind be playable.

now wind has to get flame tree to clear (where have I heard this before)

[lucid anvil]

I think they were expecting people to use more of those mixed tree charms but that is never the case

Those charms, are useless, waste of space, waste of money, waste of charm power!!!

Because the only thing you can gaurantee is your tali tree people will build everything they can to make it good

And that will always be the meta

No matter what you change

[delicate timber]

the adapt charms feel like they should be good but in actuality you would need dream luck to roll any usable adapt charms. I have yet to seen a SINGLE good adapt charm (thats over 3 charm power) be good. I don't think one even exists on the server right now

[lucid anvil]

deletes cz

[lucid anvil]

My idea for adapt charms is that they should have higher stat caps

But it'll never happen

[jolly ibex]

I mean we just slap charm on dd and use ascension

unless we cough next content should be not just old thing+new thing

[lucid anvil]

Because then, you can get really cool charms that have adapt stats but also could be really good in your tree

[delicate timber]

like sure in theory if you had an adapt charm that had something like ava cooldown + ava damage + bottled sunlight + primordal mastery that would be fantastic. But nobody has one of those since its far to rare to get something like that.

[dusk bay]

Crushing Earth: Now hits in an AoE cone in front of you, stun duration decreased by 0.25s at all rarities, reworked visuals

Crushing Earth does actually have something going for it post changes

[delicate timber]

people can get good tree locked charms somewhat reasonably if you put in the time. But getting a single good adapt charm is impossible.

[lucid anvil]

wow a cone aoe soo good

[quaint flicker]

yeah earth is really solid but again dps is just better so its not very used

[lucid anvil]

petition for make adapt charms usable

[dusk bay]

Would vote 1 in a Depths world, but 2 makes more sense with Zenith's structure

[delicate timber]

ok fair I overlooked this. But still its not that crazy compared to ward of light or even windwalk as alternatives for a pure earth (and it will never be better then AS for melee)

[dusk bay]

Disagree- AS is not a priority skill for the shadows I've run with at very deep levels for Depths, (edit: Confused the slot, though other point about dawn still stands) and have heard little to no interest in ward of light for the shadows as well. They do not want dawn on their trees when going deep (and don't care to mutate for it)

[fallow plume]

wtb dawn/flame adapt charms :(

[delicate timber]

But what is better then AS? its still really good for clear even if its not all of your boss DPS in one slot (like it is for zenith)

AS + blade furry is hard to beat

[dusk bay]

Depths balance does not necessitate an absurd damage boost at all times like Zenith does. The DPS boost on bosses is welcome, but not needed for the clear

[fallow plume]

i think they're currently looking to replace as and buff the other shadow abils to compensate

[delicate timber]

eh, right now shadow will still struggle if it has ONLY as and nothing else

[fallow plume]

_ _

[lucid anvil]

[coral saffron]

[fallow plume]

unrelated but those spawners were so fun to fight even if they are stupidly overpowered

[lucid anvil]

#makefrostgreatagain

[delicate timber]

well rip advancing shadows then then

[dusk bay]

for some playstyles

[fallow plume]

i play lbottle lmao

not exactly something insane for killing elites

[mental sentinel]

Better than shadow 😹😹😹

[delicate timber]

I mean shadow is fine for killing 1 elite; it just cannot take out 9

[lucid anvil]

Shadow can take out a lot with bflurry

[delicate timber]

that makes it better then 5 other trees which are good at killing 0 elites

[lucid anvil]

https://tenor.com/view/true-or-rubbish-gif-25237550

[jolly ibex]

oh does the

old charm stats to new charm stats

implemented yet

[quaint flicker]

no

[jolly ibex]

[dusk bay]

This encounter simply does not exist in R2 and Depths game design and I believe has been facilitated if not encouraged by Region 3 combat design/balance. Shadow was objectively not designed to deal with 12 elites like this (both the Magma Head and Golem can spawn a dread) and was not given the aoe tools to keep up like many classes have in R3 Non-Zenith content. The high mob density per spawn/high spawner density/high spawner range design was ported into Zenith rooms and has led to the problems observed with Shadow currently

[delicate timber]

if brutalize radius was a working stat it would help a little

[quaint flicker]

yeah the radius and cdr nerfs were pretty brutal to shadow clearing power, you pretty much have to spawner rush to solo clear grouped up chronology spawners (or play torch gameplay)

its unironically 3x faster to just spawner rush the whole room and then clear backwards cause of how easy it is to fall behind chronology spawn rates

like its basically fireball now but you dont have 3 other aoe options to use afterwards

[delicate timber]

is light gray tess U worth it for torch strats (I have never seen them used)

[fallow plume]

ive been using lg tess for the 25 shield room

[delicate timber]

no way we zenith players are gonna have to add light gray tess U to the list of stupid things we need to optimally play cz

[fallow plume]

although i did that before a18 release too when i was putting enough energy into it

[quaint flicker]

torches are useful when you cant clear a spawner before it respawns stuff, so like bad dps with chronology or that 30 shield f2 room

[delicate timber]

we already need gray tess U for deto strats and Bouquet of gold (because somehow it has become BIS defense)

[quaint flicker]

mostly that 30 shield f2 room though you can just get a spawner rusher to break spawners quickly if you have bad clearing dps

[delicate timber]

pls fix Bouquet BTW its not reasonable for a super rare easter egg item to be meta. Buff annilys/truest back or nerf Bouqet just do something

[surreal kiln]

its barely better

[fallow plume]

nope buff it make it bis damage too please

[surreal kiln]

i think its fine

[quaint flicker]

questionably meta

i dont use it personally

[surreal kiln]

tnorth has 10kbr

which is insane

[fallow plume]

id rather other defensive options get buffed instead

[delicate timber]

sure acutally, make it a real sword and take away its wordly protection

[surreal kiln]

cuz vesp abils happen to have the kb5 enhcnatment or sthm

[fallow plume]

bouquet isnt good, theres just nothing good for defense

[surreal kiln]

tnorth is better 75% of the time

[delicate timber]

if your asking me, just buff annilys back to worldly protection 3 and thats fair (movement speed vs more DR, reasonable trade off)

[surreal kiln]

its very sitaunal

[fallow plume]

imo if u are sarificing your main slot for defense you should get more than 20% dr from that

[surreal kiln]

ily u raikiy

[surreal kiln]

who tf would use it anyways

tbf i think it should have worldy prot 0

[delicate timber]

I was using annilys post truest north nerf, it was pretty good; it also made it easy to stasis res people since I don't have to take it out of the inventory first

[surreal kiln]

its 1 button if u do like that anyways

but i dont have it in hotswap anymore

[delicate timber]

now its better then not having a defensive item at all, but it feels bad now especially when compared to the unnerfed truest

I would use bulwark but it doesent work on brood lasers

[surreal kiln]

worldy prot 2 for it is fine

its a trade off either 16% speed or a very good ability

anyways i think bouqet is fine where it is

it isnt bis speed

doesnt have tnorths kbr or regen

or sust

wait tnorth lost

still

[delicate timber]

you still have stasis if you use bouquet, it just takes half a second longer to equip it (which does matter for people with a 2 second grave timer, but still fine most of the time)

[fallow plume]

i dont think bouquet is op i think everything else is just underpowered

[delicate timber]

thats a fair take too

[surreal kiln]

i dont think mainhands are underpowered

personally

[delicate timber]

you could also just nerf brood/vesp lasers and make them do true damage to get rid of the defensive mainhand meta for those boss fights entirely.

fix the problem at its core

[surreal kiln]

you have a sheild that has speed vry good defensives in meelee prot 3 and proj prot 4

a compass/shears that mke u take 0 kb have regen highest speed in the game

and 10% dr unifused

a ability item that allows to you to be invicnble for 6 seconds with 20% dr

[fallow plume]

i think there should be more variety for them as a whole, theres very few options rn

[surreal kiln]

and a sword that has lower speed no kbr but has also 20% dr

[fallow plume]

for some reason tm nerfed tnorth without considering that it was only meta bc there aren't many other options

[surreal kiln]

there are atleast 3

4 acually

godspore sheild is good

for casting

[fallow plume]

theres like 4 choices per region generally

[delicate timber]

4?! are we counting truest 3 times for each region

[fallow plume]

its just the best mainhand shield or tnorth bouquet annilys

[delicate timber]

mainhand shield kind of does not count, at least for DD/CZ

the main job of the defensive main hand is to guard ageist scripted boss attacks

DD has Khrosmos which is better then all of our zenith options right now

[quaint flicker]

iridium is great in clear tnorth is great in bosses for anti-pull

[delicate timber]

ya bulwork is good for clear/rush

[delicate timber]

hold on I did not think about this until now, Khrosmos might be a problem when r2 stuff gets let into r3. Maybe it is for the best to just buff everything so we don't have to gut that item too.

[lucid anvil]

They are not doing that 💀

When was the last time we actually had a buff

[fallow plume]

a few situational items got +1 levels this week 🤯

[lucid anvil]

After nerfing everything 💀 and guess what those changes didn’t fix the underlying issue at all

[fallow plume]

now ex pflames is only slightly terrible

[lucid anvil]

Only slightly

[lucid anvil]

They’ll just nerf it

[delicate timber]

we have to hide all the rest of the defensive items from the devs then!

[surreal kiln]

i dont think things rly need buffs that much outside of cz abils

[quaint flicker]

situationals are terrible they could use some buffs

[surreal kiln]

@ornate quest are u still using this or is it to bad after additive

[surreal kiln]

regicide

[quaint flicker]

theres so many items they havent gotten buffed that have terribly used budget now

[fallow plume]

Khrosmos -> NEW PROJ ARMOR HELM

[rough umbra]

nah id keep this nerfed just for ||spoiler||

[surreal kiln]

neew pfp

??

[quaint flicker]

ex scalawags giving curse of anemia for 5% attack damage in return

[fallow plume]

idk why situationals couldnt remain multiplicative honestly

[surreal kiln]

that seems like something a frozenearth would do

[quaint flicker]

yeah they really made build diversity cooked with the additive changes

very rarely you are (now) better off intentionally building situationals over just raw bis attack damage and pure ehp pieces where you need it

[fallow plume]

from what ive heard from some devs, the changes were supposed to mainly target people doing things like stacking buffs to get unreasonable damage

[surreal kiln]

i wish also they buffed the situinol not just increase the level

of the enchant

[fallow plume]

idk why they didnt make enchants a seperate modifier and make that multiplicative

[delicate timber]

probably because it would be clunky

[fallow plume]

eg make trivium and regicide additive together but make that value multiplicative with raw dmg itself

[surreal kiln]

kinda of bandaid fix

[surreal kiln]

trivuim is a funny enchant

and it should stay that way please

[delicate timber]

same since a lot of items did not get their situationals buffed up

see scouts regicide arrows (the one reason to run a bow)

[surreal kiln]

the main reason u use a bow is to clown on people for using trident

[delicate timber]

regicide arrows used to SMOKE bosses they were awesome, now trident ball is better boss dps.

[surreal kiln]

ball

i dont any scout was smokeing a boss

[delicate timber]

scout could pretty reasonably solo every r1/2 boss (thats still the case with no regicide)

oh also mists wake thats a big item

[surreal kiln]

very fair

[fallow plume]

wait i just noticed even rbless got hit by the radius nerfs lol

[rough umbra]

you will NOT buff large

onyl buff SMALL

[surreal kiln]

i mean rbless resistance is still pretty damn good

i hate my poor rune raduis

[rough umbra]

its hit radius is larger than its activation radius

is chill

[surreal kiln]

it used to be sooo big with 1005

and my meteor

fs range is chill

meteor is meh

make raduis 75% tho !!!!

[rough umbra]

its just meteor that has been meh

but flame has the least of the problems

[surreal kiln]

meteor seems fine to me

for its job

me see twisted

[fallow plume]

buff radius to 75% and nerf dmg to 75% so that the gold numbers look prettier

[rough umbra]

for its job

[surreal kiln]

me no longer see twisted

[surreal kiln]

yeha

[rough umbra]

it should probably just be altered by abil

at the cost of time

[surreal kiln]

thats wonkyy

i like every abil having genrally same dtuff

[rough umbra]

mostly range, % damage is % damage

[fallow plume]

i think its better to have consistency across charm caps and alter the base stats instead

[surreal kiln]

i also wish frost had a rework ofc but curently slightly lower dmg but bigger raduis

[rough umbra]

ok make meteor starfall with high base

[surreal kiln]

i think curnetly i basically have a perfect flame set tho which is super funny

[empty sentinel]

Radius at +100% was ridiculous I think

[surreal kiln]

yeah

i think 75 75 would be good

[fallow plume]

buff lbottle to 75 75 too 😁

[rough umbra]

everything feels perfectly fine at 80 50 tho

just some better than others

[surreal kiln]

50% as range is meh

[fallow plume]

does anyone have a screenshot of twisted spark of inspiration

[rough umbra]

i dont think a blanket buff would solve that it would just make you feel better about wiping a room

[surreal kiln]

no i just dont like how the numbers are weird

maye 25 75 50

would be nicer

[rough umbra]

when charms look like this

i think cope

[surreal kiln]

cool charm

[rough umbra]

thanks its my golden ticket to being a dawn main

[fallow plume]

first ever usable 5 star dawn charm

[surreal kiln]

you also need to complain every 0.2 seconds

[fallow plume]

yeah thats essential if ur dawn or frost

[surreal kiln]

i saw the ass 1 playing ice barrier today

and it was pretty decent

i just wish ava diddnt exist tbh

and nova became a mugh higher dmg

[fallow plume]

well he does also have the best ice set on the server as far as im aware

[empty sentinel]

It’s 150% recharge rate and 45% strength for 8s

[delicate timber]

ice barrier 😰 is this the state of frostborn

[rough umbra]

today the game gave me common avalanche for a18 vesp

how gracious

[fallow plume]

kinda wild tbh

[surreal kiln]

Today the game bugged and killed my run 3 times

And gave me sloth lust death 4 times

[delicate timber]

thats fine even twisted ava would not do anything 🥲

[surreal kiln]

That’s not true

Twisted Ava does things

[left phoenix]

what if fn ice is like this instead of the whole disc
(center is not ice'd)
🧌

[fallow plume]

if u can charm dura to 12s and the cd to 35s itd be nice for some bosses

[surreal kiln]

It’s just you frosts need to cope with trying to kill elite and dread with 1 abil

[rough umbra]

hey fastyzoom im starting to think gambling might be a bad thing

[empty sentinel]

♿

[delicate timber]

but killing the elite and the dread at the same time is all I ever wanted to do in life

also when frost cant do that then its just worse then flame in every way

[surreal kiln]

Ice barrier is very underrated now

I think ppl are glazing flame a tiny bit to hard rn

[rough umbra]

because it melts compared to 🔥

[surreal kiln]

I will say it’s the best

[rough umbra]

because its just true i cant get my shit together

[surreal kiln]

But when I was with az it’s not like I’m on a diffrent level of existence

[delicate timber]

cuz flame can use 2 abils to kill elite + dread and those abils recharge way faster and you have more then 2 good abitlies and your class does not need to pull 3 abilities out of a hat every run to even function

[rough umbra]

also consider the 💣

[surreal kiln]

How many people have a good 3 abil flame set I may ask

Not this week

[rough umbra]

why is this a thing you need to compare

thing blow up

who care yellow number

[delicate timber]

well what is "good" the amount of top tier zenith sets that exist is like 20 at most

[rough umbra]

anyways frogvis does

[surreal kiln]

Show it to me and I’m intrestex

You rly need 3 abils to kill elite and dread

There are 2 ways of doing it

[delicate timber]

well I guess you do need a third one to break carapace

[surreal kiln]

No

Not for Cara

It’s for either spawning spooder

Or dealing with with spooder

[fallow plume]

damn totem was so bad that even raikiy didnt collect totem charms

[surreal kiln]

?

He has some on plot

[delicate timber]

but deto can take care of the spiders, for free too you dont need to spend a spell (if you have a teammate)

[rough umbra]

its meteor fs pyro you hate pyro

[fallow plume]

idk maybe moved to prepare for spark of inspiration existing

[surreal kiln]

Aaaaa not pyro

[fallow plume]

i was hoping id be able to borrow a set for them from him

[surreal kiln]

Pyro is the bane of my existence

[surreal kiln]

Have you checked b1

It got moved around

[quaint flicker]

ngl ward of light and divine beam needed more of a rework than totem

[delicate timber]

as a frost player I love pyroblast and I will say that flame players have it lucky that they can just ignore such a good ability and still do fine.

pyro is so much stronger then piercing cold its not even funny

currently I'll take any bow abitliy (expect earth quake) over piercing cope.

[fallow plume]

oh

[surreal kiln]

keep cooking

[delicate timber]

what is that first charm, is it old stats??

[quaint flicker]

everything is old stats they havent updated charms yet

[delicate timber]

so much blue 😍

[left phoenix]

fr
pcold hitbox is so confusing to me

[surreal kiln]

I have sthm begged

Better

[rough umbra]

fasty when he learns how to use bow

[surreal kiln]

my favorite charm ive ever droped

ignore my mod being not updated

[surreal kiln]

Yes I shall use another hot bar space that’s annoying to use

Shoot it

Aim it

Have it do a total of 0.5dmg

And not give me speed

[rough umbra]

well its half igneous full others

thanks to agrape charm

and pyro base dmg is real high

[left phoenix]

I think pyro damage is like
higher than I expected sometimes

[surreal kiln]

hi

[rough umbra]

yeah not right now

obviously its just full right now

[surreal kiln]

Rune base dmg is a born ally insanely high

And also wand and aspect is like 1000000dmg

[rough umbra]

then just pick both

[surreal kiln]

But I need a hot bar slot

And fireball

Is so good

[rough umbra]

bro chose fireball to avoid the inevitable

[delicate timber]

abil cap would make that a awkward

[surreal kiln]

It’s so good

You know how u cook icelance

It’s super good

[delicate timber]

its good to have a flexible slot for your maintree's active, so that you don't lose when the game forces you to take an secondary ability from your tree

[rough umbra]

i can tell you right now fireball has much lower base dmg and that is also a joke ice lance legendary fails to kill normal mobs sometimes

[surreal kiln]

So there’s this funny ability on flame known ass

Detonation

[rough umbra]

alla

[delicate timber]

icelance is okay; its the only other frost ability that does something. It just struggles to deal with carapace mobs

[rough umbra]

yeah so what if you had fireball that does (OVER) double the base damage and procs that

literally avoiding the inevitable

regardless its flame it doesnt matter much

[delicate timber]

I don't view this as ice lances problem, more so frost not being able to handle carapace outside of avalanche just hitting a bunch of times

[surreal kiln]

Yeah but what if I don’t need the extra dmg it’s less inconvenient and also way longer cd

[rough umbra]

you have 4 spells you can just cycle them

no issue on consistency

[surreal kiln]

I need more cdr

[rough umbra]

i run armor mage

with a healing rate boon

[surreal kiln]

Yeah and I run agility with about as much speed as I can

[rough umbra]

that means this cdr argument is trivial

[surreal kiln]

Nop it doesn’t cuz fblast is like half the cd

So me use it more

[rough umbra]

you get far more consistent killing power by just one shotting with a spell each on normal mobs

no detonation attached

[surreal kiln]

I do that with fball usually

[rough umbra]

usually with a max of 30 base

[surreal kiln]

U sure it’s not your armor mage build having a total of 0.2% magic dmg

[rough umbra]

i am going to do the additive calculations and tell you how marginal that is

[surreal kiln]

And I am going to cope harder

[delicate timber]

running fire ball over pyroblast enables disco ball

if I was playing flame still that would be why I would make that choice

[rough umbra]

disco ball got nerfed and is an optimistic choice

[surreal kiln]

Even if I get disco I barley use it

Since it’s a now

Bow

[delicate timber]

disco got nerfed really bad but its still insane

[surreal kiln]

And who likes using a bow

[fallow plume]

I’ve never picked disco ball before 😁

[delicate timber]

like half of disco's damage is gone and it still cooks

[surreal kiln]

Opportunity is the new beyond op prismatic

[rough umbra]

20% more damage assuming circuit breaker and 110%

[surreal kiln]

Rune dmg buff

Included?

[rough umbra]

thats a different pool

[left phoenix]

unironically
I use screwdriver quite often on flame f1
sometimes you just need that 10 damage
and sometimes you just don't have skills and you can snipe them to death

[delicate timber]

I do too, but it feels so bad to screw mobs instead of just running past them with my speedrun armor

[rough umbra]

this will not save fireball considering ice lance with 30%+ more damage is not one shotting normal mobs sometimes

[surreal kiln]

How much damage does pyro have at twisted

[rough umbra]

i think 75

[surreal kiln]

I tho k fball is 48iirx

Or sthm

45

[rough umbra]

if fball is 45 they fucked up because ice lance is 41.25

[left phoenix]

that is the next thing I should learn
I'm too used to clearing everything and move on
and then I can't catch up to people

[surreal kiln]

Isn’t fball high dmg then

[delicate timber]

well speedrun is only wounded and not dead so I expect it to be killed for good next update

[rough umbra]

assuming it is

go get a number

[surreal kiln]

45 times 2.1

[rough umbra]

go confirm 45

this seems sketch

[delicate timber]

which is a huge loss for frost and dawn. The other classes can handle this change

oh earth might struggle too acutally

[surreal kiln]

It only needs to be 35 dmg to be better

[rough umbra]

is it even that

what is zenith damage scaling up from depths

[delicate timber]

wiki claims fireball is 33 twisted but that might be DD's number

[rough umbra]

dd number is 22 according to changelogs

[surreal kiln]

Isn’t it like 1.5

[rough umbra]

ok so its 33

there

[surreal kiln]

It’s prob 36

35

[delicate timber]

and pyro is 66

[rough umbra]

you are contradicting yourself instantly

44->66 makes sense thats also lower

than i thought

[delicate timber]

so ya fireball and pyro are pretty even

if wiki is to be believed on this

[surreal kiln]

Fball is slightly higher dmg

[rough umbra]

its the matter of a spell whose cd can be countered with cycling and one with significantly lower base

[surreal kiln]

If they are both scaled equally anyways

[rough umbra]

empirically i cant ever see a situation where fireball dps being better due to wand aspect actually plays out

its a cycling and breakpoint game

[left phoenix]

I don't use fireball that much just because it doesn't one shot mobs
but that's with little to no charms on both fireball and pyro

[delicate timber]

volcanic combos is better then them both for dps btw, new meta trust

[surreal kiln]

Why does that matter of fireball just does more damage

[rough umbra]

what is combos twisted damage

btw

[delicate timber]

I've not seen it twisted

[rough umbra]

i heard 18 before which was awful

and i dont believe that

[surreal kiln]

It was acually good for a bit

Oracore tested like a few months ago

I still do think the fireball is just objectively better in almost every way to pyro

[delicate timber]

new volcanic combos has the same fast cooldown as fireball but with more damage. Its pretty good for DD but in zenith you probably can't take it cuz abil cap

[left phoenix]

wait the combo change
doesn't that mean the boon also got changed

[rough umbra]

matter of preference and likely coping either way

i do not like using a bow for pyroblast but at least it one shots the mobs guaranteed

[surreal kiln]

It’s not coping when u do more dmg on a lower cd without needing a bow

[rough umbra]

when not one shotting the mobs

[surreal kiln]

But i do 1 shots the mobs

That aren’t elites

Or vengefuls

That have 5k hp

[rough umbra]

when not one shotting the mobs

[surreal kiln]

Ok I have monumenta reading comprehension

[rough umbra]

not the elites namely the vengefuls

once again though

this was a whole ass tangent

its flame it kills things pretty similar regardless

[surreal kiln]

Ok I’ll just stop

I do agree with it being slightly preference

[rough umbra]

i used to just use it as a carapace breaker until i realized everything but meteor breaks it anyways

[surreal kiln]

Trivium does enough to not need to worry about Cara for meteor

[rough umbra]

_ _

[surreal kiln]

I do think that barrier + Ava nova is very good

Problem is it’s hard to get a set becuz of Ava not having a negiyive

Negitive

I do personally want to test using like 0 Ava charms

Just using ice lance barrier and nova

[rough umbra]

disney on ice

[delicate timber]

barrier + ava is bad with avalanche range nerf

[rough umbra]

barrier ava seems fine it fills the damage void

just stand close

kills what it needs to kill

[surreal kiln]

I’m considering trying to

Jsut not use aba

Ava

Charms

[rough umbra]

i think you will annoy people heavily

at least you will not use pcold

[surreal kiln]

I want to test it I have good ice lance charms and will steal some barrier ones

[delicate timber]

Barrier absolutely needs to have charms to be better then flamestrike; its just not good

even aeroblast is better imo

[surreal kiln]

Who will I annoy

I’ll be playing with friends

[rough umbra]

my honest ice wall in my face reaction

[surreal kiln]

Nobody cares

[rough umbra]

alright laugh at this g

[surreal kiln]

I gave theaz1 twisted barrier geno once

And then kc

Told me to witness what I created

[maiden flare]

i love being suffocated by az's ice barrier definitely the most fun part of cz...........

[rough umbra]

also reviving and generally moving on ice really annoys the shadows i play with

[surreal kiln]

I’m considering using -ice barrier ice

Cuz I won’t be using Ava charms

I’ll be able to have 0 second barrier mabye

This is why ima test

[delicate timber]

let us know if that goes well somehow

[rough umbra]

(we will not be able to replicate it)

[delicate timber]

us frost players are at risk of being evicted if we can't find a new meta

[surreal kiln]

@shy ibex do u have high -ice dura

Me can borrow

Also ora I’ll take one of yours

I think in thoery this can go well

I’ll still use Ava

It should have enough dmg with nova to kill some basic mobs

[fallow plume]

yeah it sucks

niam was playing without ava earlier and trying to move is so much worse

[surreal kiln]

They will have to cope for 1 run

[rough umbra]

this feels like when manmonke tells us to trust him and runs through the whole room before we can respond

and dies to vengeful carapace albino rat

[surreal kiln]

Didn’t someone make toermaker for curses

@lucid anvil u had it right

I need to cook

Someone should make teirmaker for every single ability

[coral saffron]

i think we should just put seeker of truth in every room just out of reach of twisted AS

😁

[delicate timber]

to buff earth we should just replace every enemy with a seeker of truth, that way earthen wrath is more valuble!

[quaint flicker]

Yeah ewrath blocking a grand total of 0 damage (it doesnt redirect %hp seeker attacks)

[delicate timber]

wait it acutally does not work on seekers?

I swear it did, maybe thats only for the DD ones? this poor tree 😭

[jolly ibex]

True damage have an reason named true damage

[molten sand]

Very much this

[glass cypress]

taunt seems decent now for shadow

absorp and extra base dmg on ur crits to agroed mobs

the charms also seem to add a pretty ridiculous amount of base dmg idk if thats a bug

[fallow plume]

my general suggestions for dawn rn:

• lbottle dmg is slightly too low and the difference between common and legendary/twisted lbottle is too high, clearing below legendary is not viable since dmg rework unless you have detonation, which is not something you can rely on. i think something like 13/14.5/16/18/20/24 damage per rarity would make lbottle far less reliant on rng and improve clear capability.

• rbless damage should be multiplicative. currently the damage is too low to be worth building for in a15-18, even with a maxed setup. imo this is caused by support abilities being additive. endgame players with maxed gear and good charms will gain far less dps from a 12-56% additive buff than newer players will. i think making it multiplicative with the damage values and charm cap being lowered would make it a consistent and valuable buff regardless of player gear. as a side note, i dont think rbless should have been effected by the charm radius nerfs.

• i think dawns healing abilities should partially ignore vesp corruption meter when used for support. for example, if i throw bottled sunlight to another player i think the absorption i gain should be fully debuffed by my corruption, but theirs should be reduced at 50-75% of the usual value. this would allow dawns healing capability to be more useful, and incentivises building for healing skills that are usually ignored.

• in my opinion spark of inspritation should be able to buff the same person twice in a row. the cooldown is long enough to not have permanent uptime and id rather be able to buff people when they need it rather than wasting it on someone that doesn't need the buff because i cant buff somebody that needs it.

[dull heath]

Is it only me who finds grav bomb extremely loud

[summer hazel]

instead of healing abilits ignoring a main gimmick, I'd suggest to just add the old suggestion to make overheals from abilities be turned into absorption for few seconds

[molten sand]

I wouldn't say extemely loud but it is pretty loud

[shy ibex]

erm i dont do that often ☹️

[dusk bay]

The world if mana lance could mage's low Cooldown skill could outright kill normal mobs after charm investment

[dusk bay]

It's pretty loud but the sound effects sharing the same sounds as Last Breath is very uncomfortable

[teal plank]

I will never forget

[coarse quartz]

ngl i have been in both rooms and they are equally horrible

the f3 rooms with vines just both suck

one is a horrible vertical nightmare with spawner density a demon couldnt create and the other has blazes that 1 tap you and an elite spawner that can trigger roughly 30 blocks away

[teal plank]

Only good new f3 room is the 4 spawner one

That shi is free as hell

[coarse quartz]

fr (it is literally a util)

i think all 4 spawners should become elites

that would be funny

[teal plank]

Every other room is like charginguv reincarnated

[coarse quartz]

he actually has disciples

whole charginguv academy

the 4 spawner room is a creative idea for sure

its like the f2 shield spawner room

[delicate timber]

I don't think people will ever build into healing spells even if they become better vs vesperidys. The thing is the healing spells are already good enough to not need charms. Ward of light, already has good range, cool down and heals enough health; adding charms on top is just overkill stats that go to waste.

even if it was worth improving your healing spells, triage is an enchant and nobody is running it for a reason

so we should make ward of light charms make the spell do damage! ☀️

[fallow plume]

if the feature i suggested was implemented i would use ward charms for my vesp set as it would make ward useful

[surreal kiln]

i thi kit should have been raduis nerfed

the base raduis is beyond crazy alr

its like 27 block raduis

that is 577 blocks of raduis

total blocks

[fallow plume]

it doesnt really matter, i just liked that the radius was enough to cover most small rooms and most of vesp arena

[surreal kiln]

it can basically over the enitre vesp aerna

arena

[lucid anvil]

How is this possible with new stats

Isn’t cd variance 3

Not 4?

[molten sand]

I wonder if leftover budget can go over range limit when improving modifiers

[empty sentinel]

Ah, this is because I forgot to change earthen wrath's cooldown stat

Because before the update, it was already at -30% cap cdr, so I didn't bother checking if it needed to be changed

[quaint flicker]

yeah it goes up to 19%

same with radiant

[fallow plume]

oh

my rbless charms gonna get even worse 💔

[lone lichen]

glad i spent thousands of har on charms

[left phoenix]

glad I spent 0

[worldly kite]

not like theres much use for har for end game players

[coarse quartz]

Plz remove malediction spawn in bosses

I'm begging

In clear it is still bad but if you guys are passionate about this whole pull thing then clear is tolerable but in bosses it is just too much

Me personally I would also advocate for the removal of this... thing. I really tried to like it and did say it should stay in the past but more and more I've been getting frusturated at it and now I think it is deserves a good-bye.

This is out of the scope of just zenith though but just my thoughts......

The pull just disrupts any type of positioning you set up and can very easily just ruin a boss. Example one is vesp, where being pulled by one is basically certain death. In clear with all the verticality this rooms have been having lately, pulls have just been more frusturating when falling down is environmental damage and also usually ends up proccing many spawners, leading to a pretty certain death in a lot of situations.

[lone lichen]

maybe dont give it the suction power of a black hole

[coarse quartz]

And maybe it could be a 1 player pull max

like it shoots a judgement chain

literally just got a full wipe in vesp yesterday cuz it pulled our whole party at once

if it pulled one player at least there is an opportunity for your teammates to deal with the aftermath

[fallow plume]

Tbh even in clear i think it’s far too strong in content like cz

Especially with so many rooms being so vertical, it’s easy for a spectre to fall down and be forgotten then it throws you into 3 spawners that spawn 20 seekers and 700 arcanic carapace vengeful mobs

With dd rooms the average mobs per spawner is a lot lower and the rooms generally being tighter made it easier to keep track of the spectres that spawn and harder to be thrown all the way across a room if one did get the chance to activate

[delicate timber]

no pull into broodmother dash is how celestial zenith was meant to be played!

I agree since it's rare enough for pulls to show up in bosses that it feels like an oversight when it does mess one up

[coarse quartz]

in vesp it isnt even rare

[delicate timber]

there probably should not be a less then 1% chance for a mob to appear out of nowhere because it died to a flames detonation and then for the mob to have a chance to insta kill a player by pulling them into the unconditional insta kill boss attack

[coarse quartz]

in brood i have yet to see it but the potential is very real

and in clear ive seen it too many times to count

[delicate timber]

I think pulls are nonsense in general though so i'm biased

pulls feel like they exist to take my shadowdancer away from me since they cannot stop the pull from happening with a ranged attack (chaos dagger will just re target to the wrong mob) and I don't like that since shadow is so necessary to do well.

[delicate timber]

or maybe dash should just not be an unconditional insta kill and theres no problem anymore (its not like dash is hard to avoid normally)

[surreal kiln]

eyes spawning spectars is very intresting

i also feel everything in vesp seems to do a very large amount of kb

[quaint flicker]

Yeah i disagree with the spectre/dread removal its literally one of the only things that makes bosses hard (they are another thing you have to keep track of)

Bosses do not need a nerf if anything it wouldve been nice for a17 to be 3 curses and a18 another boss buff

[red wyvern]

I can understand if a Malediction falls underneath the floor in Vesp because what do you do besides get your Steel to somehow fire at that thing in the middle of a battle, but Malediction's ability is threatening and players should be treating it as such

[quaint flicker]

Like charm nerfs did a lot but mechanically there isnt all that much to bosses after you get some experience

Also never seen a malediction under the floor

Mobs teleport if they fall

[red wyvern]

allegedly happens but may have been "patched"

true they tp now

would be funny if they died instead but meh

[fallow plume]

i think its specifically malediction that causes issues in bosses not any of the other spectres or dreads

malediction being more threatening than all dreads is certainly something

[quaint flicker]

It has very specific and generous pull conditions

If you let it pull thats on your group

[red wyvern]

Dreads would be threatening if Casters couldn't one tap them effortlessly with little resource expenditure

but that's another issue

[quaint flicker]

Its like 10s after the person who its target runs further than 10 blocks from it or something

[red wyvern]

a Malediction gives you 5 seconds to kill it or send a single player to be nearby it

[coarse quartz]

dude

its just

fursturating

[red wyvern]

kill it!

[fallow plume]

i should clarify this opinion is coming from a dawn main (cannot 1 tap dreads)

[coarse quartz]

just actually make the boss hard instead of random overlooked mechanics accidently making it hard.. .

[red wyvern]

fair enough

[quaint flicker]

i agree with this yeah but thats not happening soon and spectres are like 99% of the time the fault of whoever spawned it and decided not to kill it

ie completely preventable

its not just a game ender for no reason

[red wyvern]

me when I am on mob clearing duty and I do not clear the mob (they should just be removed from the content instead of me doing my job)

[quaint flicker]

plus even when you do get pulled recoil or just having full hp means you wont just die from it

recoil is kind of hard to pull off with how hard it pulls tbf but again void isnt one shot if you were playing well youll survive it

or if you just kill it in the first place

bigger problem imo is reelers attack speed you can get juggled to death so easily if there are more than a couple reelers

[fallow plume]

dreads dont have any abilities with such high potential killing power imo, subjugation can be close with the pull crossbow but even then it typically only pulls you to the mob rather than flinging you behind it(that may happen in some situations, but i dont remember having it happen to me) whereas if malediction is able to use its ability it can often just kill you with no realistic way to avoid it

[quaint flicker]

but you could argue thats just every other mob in f3 being understatted compared to reelers being an issue

highkey f2 is a harder clear which doesnt make sense

[quaint flicker]

imo reelers could use a damage nerf or attack speed (at least for the pull) nerf, and the other two normal mobs could have any kind of ability to make them more threatening, maybe even just movement speed or something

[lone lichen]

the pull velocity is straight up ridiculous . i remember in the epic trader room i got pulled all the way up from the ground floor from 1 malediction.

[quaint flicker]

i mean thats the entire point, maledictions are virtually cosmetic except for the pull attack

they have such a high charge up time that its balanced

[wise quiver]

plus you can be at a pretty calm range after the arming period usually and they won't really be a problem still

[coarse quartz]

Idk something that isn't even apart of the fight that is so easily forgettable yet so punishing just feels frustrating

I can settle for a nerf but still think it's mean for it to exist

[glacial sun]

not possible to change the attack speed but I could see a damage nerf, just found out it actually deals more (27 attack damage, meaning 28 damage) than the skeleton (power 28, which is ~26-27 damage)

Though I think it's also a matter of spawner placements and the Count variable on them

which we were a little bit too evil with this week

[left phoenix]

I feel like It might actually be still threatening enough even if it deals 0 melee damage

[delicate timber]

very tiny nit pick I have about the new volcanic combos. Its sound effect is to similar to apocalypse, I keep getting paranoid that my lifeline is getting popped early but its acutally just my melee.

extremely small problem, the single smallest problem the update has but it mildly bothers me.

I acutally like the skill itself a lot, even though its less dps on paper in practice its much better since you aren't meleeing mobs every 2 seconds. It helps casters kill a single lone enemy without having to dedicate an entire spell, great for dealing with spectrals. Like all flame spells its noticeably better then its counterpart Frigid combos; but thats to be expected.

I think earth and dawn should also have their combos be reworked to be single hit spells with a cooldown; both of those trees have no business smacking a mob 3 times in a row when its not even going to kill it. Shadow, wind and steel combos make sense to be triple hit, both thematically and balance wise.

[coarse quartz]

Curse of envy: If a teammate has an ability, and you also have it, the ability will not work.
Curse of wrath: You receive damage based on how much damage you deal.
Curse of pride: You take 25% more damage per twisted ability you have.

[fallow plume]

What if there was a curse that rotated you every time you use an ability

[coarse quartz]

Curse of restlessness: If you are not sprinting, you will take x amount of damage per second.

I'm bored and curses are funny to come up with

Curse of Mitosis: Selecting a curse makes you gain another random curse

Curse of Space: Two random hotbar slots are taken.

[fallow plume]

Do we know what the stats on hwind/totem charms will convert to yet?

[delicate timber]

cryo box and eternal failure just kill you when they get activated

curse of space is terrifying, don't let the devs see that!

[surreal kiln]

you take 50% more damage if you play how thedevs intendcurse

[fallow plume]

can we get an option to entirely reject ability/upgrade choices

[delicate timber]

random curse ideas. Curse of overconfidence. Your life line gets automatically removed after the second time it is used (this does not count for your once per floor removal).

Curse of love. If one of your teammates dies, lose 30% of your HP until they are revived. If that teammate dies for good, you die too.

Curse of anxiety. If you are at or below 35% of your HP without a lifeline avaible, start having a panic attack. When your are in a panic attack you deal 40% less damage and take 10% more damage but gain a 30% speed boost until you are above 50% of your health again.

Curse of loneliness. If you are away from a teammate for more then 30 seconds, you start taking damage every second. Starting at 1 true damage and doubles for every 3 extra seconds you stay alone. Loneliness cannot kill and is inactive if you are the last player in your party.

[surreal kiln]

whatif u donthave a lifeline?

free curse im ngl

[delicate timber]

then your at risk of dying at all times. Its called curse of overconfidence for a reason!

[surreal kiln]

30 seconds is unbelively lenitant

[surreal kiln]

a curse should give you a negitive at all times

not be situinal me thinks

[delicate timber]

I wanted to make something that is like anchor but not as harsh since I think anchor removing an abitily slot entirely is unfun

[delicate timber]

thats fair, especially in bosses I can see it never being activated. Its just a concept for something that is the opposite of curse of envy.

[surreal kiln]

Anchor is a fine curse if imo some curses are jsut not for certain classes

Just like soberty sucks on shadow

[delicate timber]

anchor is unpickable on 4/7 trees and is simply unfun for the remaining 3; even if its not back breaking. I'm not a fan of curses that just remove gameplay mechanics.

[surreal kiln]

What do u mean unpickable on 4 trees which ones

The only ones I think of are just frost

[delicate timber]

frost, earth, flame and wind all really want their swaps. Maybe you can say flame does not need meteor but losing is extremely painful.

[surreal kiln]

Earth deosnt completely need it

It’s good to pick f3 when you have worse options

I think it’s a fine curse imo

[delicate timber]

E wrath less earthbound?

[surreal kiln]

Even I think a lifeline lock is way too easy to pick

[surreal kiln]

Earth is almost completely a side tree now and taunt has great dmg if your full earth yes it will hurt but I think that’s a rare case and just something you have to adapt to

[delicate timber]

oh I mean as a full tree, tanking earth cannot take it.

I guess the same goes for wind, it can take swap lock if its being used as a support tree; but it really wants thundercloud form if its being ran pure.

[surreal kiln]

If it’s being ran pure (it’s not rly meant to be) I think lock swap is fine

Thundercloud is super fun yes

But needed absolutely not

[quaint flicker]

this is just wrong wind has a grand total of 2 damage abilities one of which is thundercloud (gbolt isnt real)

[delicate timber]

maybe its not living and dying based on not having thundercloud (like frost is with avalanche), but its a fantastic elite killing spell for a class that only has 1 other attack.

[quaint flicker]

this is like saying flame can take anchor cause meteor isnt needed

youre throwing if you dont use meteor

[surreal kiln]

How much did my rare meteor with lust help ora

[quaint flicker]

dont take lust

?

lust makes everything do 0 damage

[delicate timber]

ya, you don't instantly lose the run if you don't have meteor, but its easily a top 3 worst curse for flame

I would only take swap lock if the other curses read "you die" (which some do lol)

[surreal kiln]

Yeah it was either that ir I had common meteor only

With no other abils

No deto

[quaint flicker]

or you pick one of the other 2 curse options

[surreal kiln]

Yeah gonna pick sloth req

Rq

And third was obscurity which I prob should have picked

But we had 0 clear anyways

[quaint flicker]

lust:

[surreal kiln]

And I still got nothing

And I’m still malding

[surreal kiln]

Yeah so either I have 0dmg or I have 0.0004 dmg on a 20 second cooldown and if I get death 2 seconds grace and way harder to rev u

My

Bad

[quaint flicker]

bro its impossible to have a low damage meteor

and death isnt that bad just dont die

[surreal kiln]

It was common

That thing does 4 damage

No buffs

Hella long cd

[delicate timber]

I agree with this sentiment though, I think its good for classes to have different curse preferences. I just dislike anchor since its removing a key part of the game completely.

[surreal kiln]

It is a 10 times better curse then sloth or list

Ludt

Lust

[delicate timber]

I dislike sobriety for the same reason, just removes hundreds of items from being able to be used. Its also just a harder version of curse of dependency

why have 1 curse that removes insta heal + much more, but then another curse which just nerfs insta heal?

[surreal kiln]

That’s not what dependacny does

[quaint flicker]

i mean dependency does a lot more than just nerfing pi cope but yeah sobreity is cooked

[surreal kiln]

It’s cooked on shadow

On caster it’s very playable

Dependacy nerfs all of your healing

Which is diff then just pi

[delicate timber]

so PI + food healing; maybe a dawn abitily gets nerfed for you as well. still much tamer in comparison to losing insta heal + all other potions completely

[quaint flicker]

yeah sobreity is just really bad

arguably sloth tier

[surreal kiln]

It is not sloth tier

Nowhere close

[delicate timber]

not saying that dependency is not balanced though, I think its fine. I just think that sobriety has a worse design.

[quaint flicker]

yeah id say it is def sloth tier

[surreal kiln]

Shadow mf

[ornate quest]

sobriety is just no speed pot for me

[quaint flicker]

like at least you can teleport/jump to move around with sloth but sobreity loses ehp+damage+speed+pi cope all together

[surreal kiln]

Id rather have sobriety then sloth on caster

[quaint flicker]

oh and i forgot attack speed for shadow

[surreal kiln]

But both suck

On shadow yea your right

[delicate timber]

i'd rather disconnect then have sloth

[surreal kiln]

Death is also bad

It’s mainly grave rev

Oracore can confirm

[quaint flicker]

death is best curse

[surreal kiln]

Yeah you never complained about it once right

[quaint flicker]

cause completely free if you shrimply dont skill issue (skill check curse)

[surreal kiln]

Not a single time

[quaint flicker]

thats reviving other people its still autopick

[surreal kiln]

Does anyone have the teirmaker for curses

[surreal kiln]

Id rather have impatience

[quaint flicker]

i hate impatience

[surreal kiln]

Why bro your shadow

[quaint flicker]

like the worst but still usable curse

its just so bad

[surreal kiln]

Should it but not that bad

[quaint flicker]

longer cds on everything

straight dps nerf and annoying to play with (its reasonable but not fun so i dont like it)

[surreal kiln]

Gluttony is a weird curse

It’s either half the time a buff

Or u can’t pick this

Worst possible combo is for shadow sobriety lust gluttony imo

Okay let me make budget tierlist

[quaint flicker]

not really

gluttony is either dont pick abis cause you got enough for it to be bad or you dont have abis and its free to pick

[surreal kiln]

Prob sloth sobriety lust then

S greed
A obscurity gluttony dependency
B ruin impatience death
C sobriety anchor
D sloth
F- lust

This is my caster pov oh I forgot anchor

@quaint flicker make shadow one now

[quaint flicker]

where death

[surreal kiln]

I did it

[quaint flicker]

anyway its situational the only complete non picks are sloth lust sobreity

[surreal kiln]

I on caster will take sobriety at f3 boss it’s not terrible

Yeah it’s bad

But not unpickable

But for shadow prob not with attack speed

[delicate timber]

I think this ranking is good. I guess we just disagree on how bad something has to be to become unpickable.

I agree that I would rather take anchor over sloth and lust; even on frost since those curses just murder you. But if your asking me all 3 are just unpickable.

[surreal kiln]

This is from 45ish runs+