For the Balance Update on July 4th, 2024:

[old needle]

1 + ability damage buff + consumable effects + vulnerability isn’t big enough of a category for it to matter

i do think vulnerability should be under Mob Resistance Effects though

[neat goblet]

It's kind of awkward for vulnerability to be under potions and ability buffs but if it was separate it'd undermine a lot of the point, you'd again have a massive damage difference just depending on if you have a single rogue DT or cleric choir bells in your party

[old needle]

nvm i thought about it longer, this is dumb

[timid grove]

Does take us redoing checks in a lot of palces is the issue

[neat goblet]

If you think of vulnerability as mob-specific x% strength it makes more sense

Also having it under mob resistance would probably break things so I'm considering the hypothetical of it being its own category instead for the sake of discussion

We just need an in-game explanation somewhere, probably categorize them as "Gear Buffs" and "External Buffs" and list which things fall under what category

[old needle]

i haven’t looked at the public code too hard but most of the checks are just getClassSpecsEnabled or getSkillEnhancementsEnabled, right? couldn’t you just mess with that

i think if you set your plot region to r1 it’s fine to disable spec skills when you do that

[honest ember]

the code for exalted dungeons should make it easier

[old needle]

there should probably be a better in-game place where specific information is gathered, closest thing is the New Players Nexus which is. for new players

no idea where you would implement it though

[timid grove]

Depends some people decide to go check server properties.

[neat goblet]

playerstats button most likely
Or hover

[tribal dagger]

Probably in ps

“Click to learn more”
dumps a gigantic message in chat

[old needle]

separately from that i did have an idea a while ago for an /faq command that new players can quickly type keywords in for common questions that people ask in chat

[vivid osprey]

i love being able to test my damage properly in R1 and R2!

[old needle]

like instead of asking “Why do i have mining fatigue?”

type “/faq mining fatigue” or “/faq fatigue”

[vivid osprey]

please for the love of god, add back dummies hitting you and procing on hit effects, and please let us somehow check per region what our damage is.

[indigo grotto]

well isadora still hits with wither and all dummies that hit normally also get counter-strike primed against them

[slate surge]

did they buff fol after the update or not? bc 15% additive is pretty weak

[old needle]

it’s a different category than the additive damage from gear and infusions

[olive valve]

No? 22.5% multiplicative, even if the rogue set only had +100% atk dmg from gear, would turn it into 145% dmg (same as now with additive), and dmg gear usually goes beyond that
So it's actually a nerf. It's actually a buff if the set has below +100% melee/proj/magic dmg though

Having the equivalent of equipping a +45% dmg piece for max infusion + understanding 5 still feels pretty strong, that I agree. But at the same time doing the same with tenacity means a permanent +15% res buff, or 17.6% extra ehp, so it kind of evens out

[little jay]

No? Unless they changed the stats of Rage of the Keter, it'd never be a buff in any situation

[olive valve]

True, FoL was shot dead this update. Even if it is separate from gear, it's still additive with the skill dmg buffs, so it still got hit hard. Now it's just a worse ocean gate
The matter I was replying about was dmg infusions though

Maybe if you double the dmg buff from FoL, both base and charm buffs, it would be enough?

[surreal blade]

multiplicative consumables NOW!!

[vivid osprey]

FoL is dead? Finally

the consumable meta will crumble under the weight of the mountian.

[pastel steppe]

no matter how badly you nerf fruit of life, silver is never going to come back!

fruit still feels "fine" just not really epic quality anymore. 15+ more damage + speed is still worthwhile

but ichor damage buffs are completely placebo. Especially the shadow dancer ichor

[old needle]

i mean. they were placebo before anyway

[vivid osprey]

frost is still the only good ichor

free 10% whenever you need to heal cant be slept on.

[ancient iris]

new meta

[merry bane]

what is reaper doing up in S tier

what are you cooking

[ancient iris]

my reaper crits are 312

[merry bane]

mans is building bis dmg

[tribal dagger]

Hotfix for daily restart: Fixed damage calculation issues in Dark Pact, Cursed Wound, and Melancholic Lament (u)

[ancient iris]

is this real?

[merry bane]

cook

[thin sorrel]

rip shaman

[ancient iris]

what is that

[thin sorrel]

true

[near hollow]

Why is the Hunter at C 😭

What wrong with the Hunter

[worldly ferry]

is this real, john reaper?

[finite shale]

Tenebrist up in A?

We're so warback

[tribal dagger]

I looove tenebrist

[slow nymph]

Thank god I seem to be unnaffected

even though I run agi bers in r3 which stacks 123% damage and stamina

it was basically the same

r1/2 i dont really have many damage pieces

Hell in r1 the ONLY damage piece I have is whispers

[thin sorrel]

Stamina would just be less effective, I think. I'm in a similar boat to you

[merry bane]

most reapers ran heavy stamina stack and that's uh

no longer with us

i think we should hold a funeral pyre for belt of the tyrant just outside galengarde

this patch killed the last remaining strand of use it had

[slow nymph]

Honestly yeah, kinda. There are just better options and combos now; melee prot is covered by blightpod

i think dignified greaves is officially better

so is Might

[finite shale]

am I hearing tyrant buff arc

[merry bane]

stamina items in general got murdered pretty hard

[worldly ferry]

remnants was unchanged. again.

[merry bane]

fading horizon, belt, ex ironscale is stamina I think?

adanartis.

sweet merciful christ

adanartis went from being a useless offhand to a useless offhand

[little jay]

Damage situationals (all of them) honestly should've been put into their own damage category

[merry bane]

all situational need either a big buff or a partial return to multiplicativity (or a fully separate category)

[little jay]

Like, so they're additive with each other, but not additive with the other random stuff

[merry bane]

footprints went from overstatted to understatted in 1 patch lol

well, understatted is a bit of a stretch

it's ok

[little jay]

It's still good

Though now Flight from the Capital might be better

Actually, wait, it is...

[merry bane]

yeah FFTC is straight up better now

[little jay]

Unless you care about Second Wind...

But it's a 2 armor difference, iirc

[merry bane]

though, partially due to FFTC being somewhat overstatted in the first place

[little jay]

Nah, that was never understatted

It was in a perfect position

[ancient iris]

yeah ok my first spec tier list was a joke but scout is like

actually maybe dead

ehh

[merry bane]

FFTC is very strong boot

[ancient iris]

more like cut down

its kinda balanced now

[merry bane]

they are armor aether threads

[little jay]

If anything, it might've been somewhat overstatted

[worldly ferry]

hmmm

second wind 2....

[little jay]

People have been saying that, but I've yet to get online and try it out

[merry bane]

scouts fine

[little jay]

Someone told me it was like a -40% damage nerf

[ancient iris]

um volley damage is just dead

thats it

[merry bane]

as long as you weren't using sanguine tendon anyways

[ancient iris]

but its a major loss

[little jay]

Me 😦

[merry bane]

[ancient iris]

yeahh so sanguine being able to kill elite and pierce to kill dread is gone

u just dont do enough dmg now

which is a HUGE power loss

i mean its probs fine its no longer S probs A

[little jay]

Also, what about Hunter? Is predator strike in the same boat?

[merry bane]

how terrible
instead of holding shift and killing both elite and dread, you have to right click 2 or 3 whole times

literally unplayable

[ancient iris]

probs idk i dont play hunter

it does so much dmg i doubt it

unless they changed it

[merry bane]

hello misthelix

i saw u

[little jay]

It's honestly fair

But I'm sad

[ancient iris]

i mean

yeah

[merry bane]

tendon had it coming

[ancient iris]

i mean every other class got nerfs this huge maybe its fine

[little jay]

People didn't even use it that much. Most people just stacked sharpshooter

[merry bane]

warrior scraped by relatively unscathed

[little jay]

Cleric:

Looks perfectly fine other than a soft slap to throns (barely)

[merry bane]

thorns is an overall buff due to boon U btw

if that affects yourself

[ancient iris]

i mean

[little jay]

I made a pact to not play it

[little jay]

;-;

[ancient iris]

if everything went down cleric might be up

cuz cleric basicalyl felt like what scout feels like rn

so if it didnt change it mgiht be good

[merry bane]

boon U reducing sanctified armor cooldown

if applicable

don't quote me on that

[tough kettle]

it doenst

[little jay]

Man, why does cleric get to be the best class? It already had healing...

[tight eagle]

It’s on mob

[tough kettle]

said by frozen earth in #gameplay-discussion

[merry bane]

ok good

[ancient iris]

it

isnt the best class

it never was

dont let people feed you lies man

[merry bane]

beiro got shot pretty hard

[little jay]

;-;

[merry bane]

cbless death

[ancient iris]

that existed too

[tight eagle]

Eh
Cleric is just well designed
It’s not overpowered

[ancient iris]

CBless dead??

why did cleric die

like real cleric

is hiero still S

[little jay]

They kill the real cleric and throns lives another month

Earlier, I honestly thought throns was dead...

Also, how is alchemist now?

The patch notes intended to balance classes for the sake of making other classes (mentioning alchemist) in a better position

[tough kettle]

in r3 ye

welp not die

[little jay]

I am honestly really excited to play with esoteric, even if its AI still sucks

[tough kettle]

just not noticeable

[merry bane]

it's much better damage wise

SIGNIFICANTLY better

just steer clear of mycelian catalyst

that charm is a fucking trap

[little jay]

Well yeah, for esoteric, but what about alchemist in general?

[little jay]

Lol, yeah

[tight eagle]

r3 AA spam damage went down quite a bit
But imo it’s fair
Now you gotta actually sacrifice some stuff for damage

[merry bane]

AA went down about 10-15% on average

[tough kettle]

alch in r3 lose dmg

r2 get more dmg

*r1

[little jay]

Yeah, this makes sense

[tight eagle]

EE is cool
Significantly more damage
It’s like back to pot spam which is pretty good

[merry bane]

R1 alch was a huge W for this patch

big damage buffs

[little jay]

Yeah, now I'm mad at having seen these patch notes and noting my experience playing early game R1 alchemist...

[tough kettle]

ye I no longer need to cry while having 7dmg pot and see shaman beside doing 20+

[little jay]

Nah, but in all honesty, I'm happy about it

[little jay]

^

[tough kettle]

(cuz I play shaman now)

(real)

[worldly ferry]

speaking of shaman

soulbinders combat boots: what the fck

[little jay]

Can someone explain how it works now? When the description says "7.5 + 150% of potion damage," does the 7.5 and 150% go to the base damage (like, if the base potion were 10 damage, like 10 * 1.5 + 7.5) or does the 150% count as "ability damage"?

[vivid osprey]

gameplay discussions is in its own world

[worldly ferry]

oh wait nvm, my build still hits 20 agility

[little jay]

Yeah no, it looks worse xD

[worldly ferry]

this is a wild change

[little jay]

Where's the base agility?

[worldly ferry]

yeah.

[worldly ferry]

thats it.

my set just gains reflexes 1 now

[vivid osprey]

that seems not that bad but you lose all damage for it

[worldly ferry]

its also bis speed now for r1?

[tight eagle]

If your pot is 10
The ability base damage is 7.5 + 10*1.5 = 22.5
And then your magic damage and ability buff applies after

[little jay]

Ok, not bad!

[tight eagle]

To my understanding

[little jay]

Of course, it'd be worse in R3

[worldly ferry]

buff to r1 alch, nerf to r3 alch?

do people play r2 alch

[tight eagle]

Haven’t tested r2 yet
Was gonna test while doing challenge cyan
But uh
It doesn’t really work lol

[little jay]

Also, does all abilities like Taboo count as "ability damage"?

[tight eagle]

Probably
Taboo elixir and bezoar

[little jay]

I honestly wish they clarified the math better or added a more specific info for the skill descriptions

Though, if all this info I have been getting is correct (pray), alchemist seems to be in a decent spot

Like, I love having something other than artillery

[tight eagle]

It’s probably written somewhere
But I can’t just remember all of them

[little jay]

Even if artillery is (barely) worse, the esoteric changes seem to make Alchemist look stronger

[tribal dagger]

It's all in the logs

[tight eagle]

Yeah pot spam is probably like
What I would say a healthy meta

[little jay]

Huh? I read the attached "extension" and it didn't seem to mention the specifics on what counts as ability damage, especially for alchemist. I'll look at it again

[tribal dagger]

Whatever is from an ability is ability damage

[little jay]

I'm still curious as to why Panacea 2 was nerfed. It seemed fine

A lot of people did Panacea 1 + Transmutation Ring 1 anyway

Though I believe, for the most part, the changes were pretty good, especially for changes so massive. I do wish other items like Highwatch Pike got some love, though

The previous Squid Hunter buff felt a little weird, given how Highwatch Pike was left in the dust

[rare torrent]

my volley 470→280 👍

[old needle]

all the gear got buffed now can we buff enchantment damage and just set inferno to 1 more fire damage per tick per level

[worldly ferry]

no, set inferno to be .5^level

[tight eagle]

470 pre change is kinda crazy tho
Or maybe I’m just playing it wrong

[old needle]

if infernolock is so bad then nerf the part of warlock that makes it good, don’t nerf inferno and kill everything else that uses it

[worldly ferry]

what else uses it

[old needle]

inferno mage

which is more fun than arcanist i will fight people on that

also i think something silly involving scout foxes

[worldly ferry]

problem: inferno anything shouldn't be a thing

[tight eagle]

Wild take but I respect that
I do get the joy of afk playstyles
With like movements and other non combat skills

[worldly ferry]

its incredibly useful to supplement damage

it shouldn't be the only thing providing damage

[old needle]

it’s not really afk playstyle so much as “i can be on low health and run away, and the thing will still die because i didn’t put my whole shit into 1 burst of damage”

[old needle]

oh it’s not the only thing

but putting everything into starfall radius charms and then casting it with fire elemental active and seeing everything die

incredibly satisfying

i wish i could put charm power into the spirits themselves but they take too much budget considering i barely use the ice one anyway

fire spirit specific charms when

probably never because there aren’t even any charms for espirits besides the common ones

[valid topaz]

I do not tolerate Paladin slander

[worldly ferry]

i am still amazed that guardian has more dps then berserker

[ancient iris]

Paladin is ass

[surreal blade]

paladin's abilities are just really boring imo

and cleric has really boring charms and enhancements on top of it

(except illu u and solar smite i love you)

[valid topaz]

play caster pala

much more fun

although you will need legionary 5

[surreal blade]

paladin shield toss when. or magic hammer. something more paladin-y than just.... damage but in line, carbon copy of heiro prayer, and warlock-at-home debuff circle

[robust sorrel]

didn't the creeper alch thing go from 135% to 150% + 7.5 = more than aa

[tight eagle]

yeah more than AA

[robust sorrel]

interesting

[valid topaz]

AA is meme skill

[slow nymph]

All im gonna say is a warlock I know said their damage dropped by 84 💀

but idk, they might be a stamina-stack reaper

i asked them what they ran but i think they're asleep rn

[high linden]

my hex dmg on tene using echar on elites went from 800->700

should be fine tho it's not like i successfully hit all the debuff ever

[valid topaz]

why the fuck are you aiming for 800 hex damage

[high linden]

it's just that much

the build is using armor

[valid topaz]

send build

I dont think stacking hex damage is worth it on tene

[high linden]

oh it's most cuz of am hex (u) and that blue epic charm

it's the only thing doing dmg wdym

[valid topaz]

Inferno is ok

just dont rely on it

I would say like 60% magic +30% inferno + 10% melee

[high linden]

https://ohthemisery-psi.vercel.app/builder/m=Eschar Dreamcatcher-4&o=Hycenea's Vinelash-4&h=Eyes of the Loamskattar-4&c=Silver Emperor's Shadow-4&l=Spikeladen Crust-4&b=Threadbound Boots-4&charm=None

inferno?

never talk to me again

oh uuuuh lemme send charms

[rare torrent]

[high linden]

https://ohthemisery-psi.vercel.app/builder/m=None&o=None&h=None&c=None&l=None&b=None&charm=Swi-t_Vile-3-W,Foc-d_Vile-3-W,Gho-inence-3-W,Eve-orizon-1-W,Les-r_Vile-1-W,Hex-Siphon-1-W

here's charm

[valid topaz]

literally just change boot to golemworn and play pala

[high linden]

no

:3

[valid topaz]

Paladin is the good melee magic class

[high linden]

but i will play paladin

if only any1 send me a paladin build

oh wait mb it doesnt do 800 or 700

it does 570 now

oh no

517

[valid topaz]

#1182822785727348796 message

you can swap out nihilo core for that sirius charm

while waiting for fol fix

[high linden]

the build's so old the dev forgot to update the link

[valid topaz]

its still operational

[high linden]

u use pers for this right?

not like it matters that much due to formular change but e

[inner thistle]

the fuck did paladin do to go to d

[high linden]

didnt aa dmg get nuked or sth

[inner thistle]

reaper damage gone

paladin damage up

harb aa damage gone ee damage up but apoth unchanged/up (brutal)

[tight eagle]

Haven’t tried apoth yet but it’s probably roughly the same

[valid topaz]

harb is still ok

[merry bane]

damage improved substantially, radius is still a bit sad through

the activation mechanic is still annoying and the charm options are very human

it's a welcome change but there are still things to be done

[tight eagle]

I think since EE is procced more "interactively" it is kinda deserved
it's a lot more thinking than AA
radius is fine with explosive reagent (crazy usage)

[merry bane]

reagent is basically an automatic slot

mycelian catalyst is a 3 star cooldown increase because both creepers explode instantly and fuck up eachothers I frames

[tight eagle]

I haven't tried that yet but +1 creeper does not appeal to me

[valid topaz]

creeper dont have iframes

[merry bane]

in theory it either doubles your damage or grants double the aoe

it doesn't.

[valid topaz]

its like 220 damage in 6 or 7 block radius

[merry bane]

i have never seen numbers even close to that when both creepers explode

[valid topaz]

bigger than aa pretty sure

now that aa is trash

[merry bane]

AA is fine it lost about 10-15% DMG in r3 and actually went up in R1

R2 is roughly the same

[tight eagle]

brine is still good
AA build is still there and oneshots in r3 is still really valuable
we'll see how the meta goes

[merry bane]

brine is still great, it still has that obscene multiplicative radius scaling

fucking RIDICULOUS radius

[valid topaz]

brine somewhat loses to creeper builds due to ua fuckery

deployment range

[merry bane]

ua fuckery makes me sad because it makes me slot callicarpa and that means I can't rocket jump

[valid topaz]

thats a big plus

if you run creeper

[void zodiac]

https://ohthemisery.vercel.app/builder/m=Abyssal Truncheon-4&o=Harrakfar's Will-4&h=Morbid Hallucination-4&c=Matted Gorefur-4&l=Vilepriest Garments-4&b=Flight from the Capital-4&charm=Aut-illery-3-C,Zoe-c_Geas-2-C,Gre-miting-2-C,Foc-miting-3-C,Les-miting-1-C,Blo-endant-1-C

[merry bane]

FLIGHT FROM THE CAPITAL

MY BELOVED

[valid topaz]

imagine meleeing as paladin

...

[merry bane]

hybrid paladin is fire bro

though tech nerf hit it hard

[valid topaz]

magic and screwdriver hybrid

[void zodiac]

nah its still good

my build got a damage buff

[gloomy galleon]

What

Aa does 5 dmg more than a normally thrown pot

While costing 2 pots

Only good thing it has is being able to hit blazes rn

Even stuff that should be killed by an aa like basic archers are surviving, even with a bunch of magic dmg and taboo and what not

I would get not one shotting basic melee mobs, but basic archers is too much, especially when the skill costing 2 pots barely does more than 1 pot

[tight eagle]

wat
is that mathematically possible

[gloomy galleon]

I tested in multiple times coz I thought I was going crazy

Before they hotfixed my pot was 25 and aa 53,after hotfix it's dead

[tight eagle]

the flat damage alone is more than 5

oh

ok make sense now I thought you're comparing 1 pot to 1 AA

[gloomy galleon]

Does this place have embeds

Actually I ll post a vid elsewhere

Nvm, ig it got fixed now

It's back to double

But at one point today morning it was goofed with +5 dmg, prolly have it in logs

Mb

[merry bane]

with a higher velocity and much larger radius

[gloomy galleon]

I should probably strike through that

The thing already got fixed from morning

But even if nit fixed I wouldn't consider 2 pots worth it for more velocity for a singular pot

[ancient iris]

Cheeks it's cheeks

[ancient iris]

It's just worse now its still good if u consider up to -80% damage not that big

[ebon cedar]

i ran a poi earlier with nipnop and it seemed like the most broken thing ever

max pt shadowcast everything was mincemeat

derelict tablet threads of valor technique blast will do things to a mf i suppose

[merry bane]

THREADS OF VALOR USAGE

[ebon cedar]

granted i place down transmutation ring and everything explodes and i hear slurping noises

[merry bane]

true

[merry flame]

hunter doesn’t feel too different to me

maybe because throw rate gear means i have “reasonable damage” or whatever

probably not

or maybe because im playing 12pts i think thats the actual reason

[tough kettle]

I like an sentence

the harder content the less diversity

[ancient iris]

Nah

Also that was a rushed tier list ngl

I think it's mostly the same except the standard for dps or clearing power is just lower now cuz everything is worse

If rogue was s before it is now A tier but a tier is like the new s tier

[valid topaz]

（please buff zoetic）

[ancient iris]

this is my real tier list

i had to make new tiers to accomodate

but generally i think you can imagine each tier as one tier lower in power then b4 cuz the standard of power has just gone down across the board

except for S though mage doesnt seem affected ngl

[finite shale]

cleric remains an enigma

[tribal dagger]

Not the tenebrist

[ancient iris]

arguments for each tier
S - Arcanist doesn't seem changed at all.
A - Bers seems slightly worse? Assassin and swordsage got a massive cut in DPS, clearing power seems to remain for the most part.
B - Ranger and hunter lost the elite volley 1 tap capability. Volley damage also just got huge losses against bosses. Elementalist is just a worse arcanist so.
C - Reaper rework already nerfed it and its nerfed again with this sadly. Harbinger got pretty big nerfs but lowkey didn't change interactions much cuz scorched earth.
D - Guardian is bad but not as bad as the other two
E - Apoth just got the bad end of the stick as it got the nerfs harb recieved without a skill like scorched earth to keep up. As a support might honestly see some light with hiero out of the game?
F - Tenebrist is boring and bad clearing power in the first place so like I'd imagine the nerfs have just made it worse
Not sure - Don't play or play with paladins, hiero i just have to play and play with more.

Although Apoth vs Hiero is actually kinda sick

the nerfs to cbless have really made hiero not have this huge gap compared to apoth

if apoth gets some decent support charms in the future, and maybe even right now, it might be able to catch up to hiero

although these cbless nerfs were HARD

idk what else got nerfed on hiero but jesus christ

before it used to be like +80-100% damage boost it is now like a 20% buff

which is still good on paper idk if thats noticeable

thats with gotk if im not mistaken too

[modern ingot]

as a hiero im crying

i cant give double damage on 100% uptime with 0 effort now 😭

honestly might try different support classes now!

[ebon cedar]

apoth support feels good

[modern ingot]

apoth, sooth can finallly rise out of the shadow of the stat stick hiero

[ebon cedar]

i like trans ring damage boosting, and the constant vuln + massive absorp feels good

[modern ingot]

will hiero stay meta for bosses?

[ancient iris]

yeah apoth i only saw the offensive effort on it

did its support get reworked/buffed?

[modern ingot]

apoth was a rising support for some time

its just that it always fell short of hiero cbless spam

[ebon cedar]

i have no idea but transmutation ring feels like a domain expansion whenever i use it

[merry bane]

"Guardian is bad but not as bad as the other two"

[modern ingot]

i will now start yelling DOMAIN EXPANSION every time i throw a transmutation ring

[merry bane]

guardian is still a monster lol

[modern ingot]

my neighbours will NOT thank you

[merry bane]

challenge is a hell of a drug

[ancient iris]

meh

guardian just didnt look like allat

berserker seems unchanged ngl it might be S

[fading wyvern]

that moment when everyone thinks tene was nerfed when it's MY class and I kept it the same via gear buffs instead

[ebon cedar]

i only play the weird guardian build so i have absolutely no idea what its like normally but i like it

[merry bane]

hi fwap

[ebon cedar]

tene is in the same place as before i think?

[ancient iris]

i mean disclaimer i ddont know if what i saw is optimal

yeah tene is in the same place F tier ??

[merry bane]

tenebrist is still tenebrist

[ancient iris]

jesus christ man

this volley nerf hit hard

cant even 1 tap entropy no more

[merry bane]

scouts after they are forced to hit right click 2 or 3 times instead of holding shift and right clicking once to get rid of elites

[ebon cedar]

elite cycle is like shoot elite 3 times, then volley dread

[merry bane]

😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭

[ancient iris]

is this what the worl is like for an alchemist

hey

on the bright side

tendon and marksman dont matter anymore so i can put on peakborn

charm diversity got a + at least

[merry bane]

I LOVE PEAKBORN WINDCHIME

MY BELOVED

[ebon cedar]

marksman only matters for hunter

[merry flame]

marksman max stacks still feels like it matters a bit

[ancient iris]

vengefuls are hella rough

[ebon cedar]

on ranger qd charms are better

[merry flame]

but the lesser +0.25% gave me 2 damage lmaooo

[ancient iris]

b4 volley could get them into 1 tap range at least it doesnt feel like that no more

[ebon cedar]

vengefuls take 2-3 shots out of a mid range enigma

[ancient iris]

i mean peakborn has given a crazy boost in survivability i just press Q and fling myself 50 blocks away

[merry bane]

it's great

"oh shit!"

"bye!"

[ebon cedar]

luckily laser attachment so it doesnt matter

[ancient iris]

i wonder if i could fit in tradesman cape or whatever

+1 tact

[merry bane]

cape is completely unnecessary

[ebon cedar]

im already starved for charm power as is so i dont think i can fit anything else

the only technically non mandatory one is greater rapacious but even that one is really nice

[ancient iris]

dude

twisteds

are such a fucking drag

[merry bane]

i fucking love greater rapacious

amazing charm

insane eeye uptime

[ancient iris]

my volley at least used to chunk down half its HP now it does like a bar maybe more if im lucky

[merry bane]

oh no

the tanky miniboss is tanky

🤔

how wierd

[valid topaz]

did inferno got unnerfed

[merry bane]

no its still dead

[valid topaz]

at some point

[merry bane]

i think we should nerf it harder though

[valid topaz]

it deals a bit more

[near hollow]

Nerf rogue even more

[candid pike]

I can’t instantly rip apart twisteds anymore, truly this is the darkest timeline

[ancient iris]

now why would inferno be buffed

[valid topaz]

just delete tenebrist

[ancient iris]

rogue

might be balanced

honestly

[candid pike]

Mags wisdom always leaves me in awe. He is the out of the box thinker this generation needed.

[valid topaz]

not like any other class that can use inferno well

[merry bane]

@fading wyvern opinions

[valid topaz]

inferno mage is not real

[ancient iris]

idk what the point of rogue is anymore though i guess its clearing is still fast

[valid topaz]

the nature of inferno complements tene gameplay

which is why its good on tene

[ebon cedar]

gameplay

[merry flame]

Marksman
Lesser, Focused, Sharpened 112->156
Focused, Sharpened 112->154
Lesser, Sharpened 112->146
Sharpened 112->144
Lesser, Focused 112->143
Focused 112->141
Lesser 112->136
Nothing 112->135

[valid topaz]

helps with downtime

[fading wyvern]

assuming it is delete tene, maybe

[near hollow]

(Jk, I haven’t played more of the Rogue even with my cutter hope skin)

[merry bane]

🤨

[ancient iris]

we dont need to have another inferno hate speech discussion i think the general concesus is well known

ANYWAY can we buff every bow

holy guacamole i need some damage man

[tough kettle]

I forgor save ss of fwap said success kill rogue

[ancient iris]

this is messed up

[modern ingot]

every bow now has DOUBLE damage

[merry bane]

consider pipepuncher

[modern ingot]

the game is finall at peace

[ancient iris]

can we give shadowstone +1 pb level

[merry bane]

shadowstone is the last fucking item that needs to get buffed

[near hollow]

||especially with the blaze parkour, I hate it so much||

[tough kettle]

they mean -1 pb level

[valid topaz]

can we buff zoetic

building hol is just pain

[ancient iris]

dude

ok think about it

[valid topaz]

I think zoetic will be fine if its +200%

[ancient iris]

shadowstone is actually about to get a rival that isnt ok

[merry flame]

idrk numbers, i feel like sharpshooter charms for the sake of max stacks seems ok

greater and lesser suck probably

[ancient iris]

ok frfr buffs i think alch obviously needs to be looked at, nerf mage, hiero could do with honestly a cbless rework, and idk about the rest lowkey

cbless is just too hard to balance rn cuz its so easy to apply in a huge radius so if dmg too high too good if dmg too low too bad

i mean i guess thats just how it works

idk

buff cbless then

make it mid at lest right now its just bad

[valid topaz]

can we make hol damage actually good

[oak tangle]

Also rbless in cz, very mid now even with max charms

[valid topaz]

you sell your kidney to build hol damage and it still does like 120

[tough kettle]

it's for resistance

[oak tangle]

Yeah I’ll probably swap my lbottle set to rbless res instead

[ancient iris]

how about

u use it for healing

[valid topaz]

no

[ancient iris]

dude just delete paldin

the thought of this support class being used for offense is sickening

[oak tangle]

Also a lot of situational dmg stuff could do with a change now, i was using trivium 5 set before with lbottle because it was nice for killing carapace mobs but now the trivium damage is very low so it’s just worse than using flat magic damage which is pretty boring

[valid topaz]

I play offense with sooth

[ebon cedar]

what kinda thought process

[merry bane]

what are you cooking

[valid topaz]

the rotation is so smooth I want to lick it

[tribal dagger]

For the Balance Update on July 4th. 2024

[ancient iris]

"support" class

all these quote on quote support classes for what

my eagle eye is better support god dammit

[tough kettle]

where is support

it just healing and undead kill

[ancient iris]

grrrrr

[tough kettle]

(also I think this is good time to add class spec passive to balance out r2/r3)

[ancient iris]

wait

let him cook?

[robust sorrel]

How did harb/apoth both go from s tier to c and e

[ancient iris]

first tierlist was a meme im gonna just tell you

bro what is this

[robust sorrel]

damn😭

[ancient iris]

alchemist has support in its class roles but cleric doesnt

this isnt fr

hoyl guacamole

it literally says support in the description

yet not in class roles

what is this dude

[candid pike]

Dude what?

[ancient iris]

alright my opinion appears to be controversial but think deeply

you guys are hearing me but ur not listening to me

we have 7 classes that can already be used for offense, so why does the one true support class have to share an offensive side to it?

[tough kettle]

why class is offense and support

[ancient iris]

people hate mscout/bscout being in one class so what is this bias towards clerics hybrid playstyle huh?

[tough kettle]

why it cant be spectrum

[candid pike]

Because then it’d be boring as fuck?

[ancient iris]

well boring if u dont enjoy support?

i dont like melee cuz i dont enjoy it so i play scout or support, does that mean melee is boring?

[tough kettle]

welp do we have "objective" that having feedback of kills mobs let people feels good

[ancient iris]

true

i mean im not saying cleric CANT have this offensive side but it feels like it keeps eating away at the support every update

[tough kettle]

and do we have "objective" that "pure support" dont kill mobs

[ancient iris]

i sniff that the cbless nerf indirectly hit hiero and was planned to hit these paladins

[tough kettle]

I think they nerf support thing is due to the https://discord.com/channels/313066655494438922/1129118318381498589

[ancient iris]

grrr

[tough kettle]

they don't want the skt incident happen again but it's derail

[gleaming moth]

pure support rarely works in mm

[ancient iris]

it very much WORKED

[tough kettle]

I think we should agree that

[gleaming moth]

it's gotta be able to live

[ancient iris]

and then u guys SHOT us in the behind and legs

[tough kettle]

classes "buffs" should be seperate multi and change number here

instead add to the uh

let me find the formulat

[ancient iris]

before hiero was consistently an S tier but nobody played it

it could make any class look cracked

but nooo us hiero players were having too much fun

cbless HAD to be nerfed for the greater good

i mean its fair but like man if this nerf was aimed specifically at melting bosses, i think the issue was more so rogue

[gleaming moth]

if it makes anything looked cracked, wouldn't it be making the already high dps scenarios be like, super op?

[tough kettle]

Base Weapon Damage * Critical Melee * (1 + Gear Damage + Situational Damage + Infusion Damage) * (1 + Ability Damage + Consumable Buffs + Vulnerability) * (1 - Mob Resistance Effects) + Flat Damage
->
Base Weapon Damage * Critical Melee * (1 + Gear Damage + Situational Damage + Infusion Damage) * (1 + Ability Damage + Consumable Buffs + Vulnerability) * (Class buffs * placeholdermultifor_self/teammate) * (1 - Mob Resistance Effects) + Flat Damage

[ancient iris]

that looks like a whole lot of mumbo jumbo

that i dont understand

all i know is an 80% damage buff went down to a 20% one

onion did a 1000 burst and we buffed him and he just did 1200

now surely if he did 1400 instead it wouldnt be game breaking but still better

[tough kettle]

it's intended to nerf edge case
I think the thoughts are great but the implemtion unintended affect normal gameplays

[candid pike]

No it’s more like you’d be relegating cleric to only be used in World Bosses and Strikes if it had zero offensive skills and only buffed and healed other people

[ancient iris]

ermmm

cleric can be used to help clear yknow

[cyan relic]

Saw the tierlist how is Berserker A

[robust sorrel]

I will not take this alch disrespect😡😡😡

[cyan relic]

Its sooo C tier (mid class)

[ebon cedar]

This is the most pure form of brainrot

[cyan relic]

The gummy bers are back.

[candid pike]

You’d practically have to be glued to another person the whole clear

[violet tide]

if cleric was pure support then it wouldn't be fun playing solo

[ebon cedar]

that is kinda what full support is honestly but i mean thats what i signed up for

[ancient iris]

ermmm u do that but also just buff everyone else too

its not that hard ngl

[ebon cedar]

what point are you trying to make with these ermms and ahhs brother

[ancient iris]

with cbless radius charms too

[ancient iris]

my points

[tough kettle]

ms I wonder what's your thoughts of class buffs and vuln

[tribal dagger]

I think support would be cool if it wasn’t just hitting the mass AoE strength buff button every 30 seconds

[tough kettle]

It's not that straightforward vuln put at that place in the formula

[ancient iris]

That's why I said cbless rework originally

It's a dumb skill to balance with how simple and easy it is to get value

[violet tide]

imo good support design is when your support can support your team but also has its own offensive capabilities to not just sit back and buff/heal teammates

(and also is engaging)

[ancient iris]

Ehhh

Idk that's just preference ig

I think a support class should just be supporting

Personally

[gleaming moth]

Support classes would be a lot more fun and easier to build with a party system

[ebon cedar]

isn’t your preference to sit behind smiguy as a hiero and press one button every minute and afk

[violet tide]

bro wants to take mercy from overwatch and put it into monumenta

[ancient iris]

No it's sit behind everyone and dish out heals or get cleansing rain off or get spawners and then Uber someone

[ebon cedar]

but you can do that so what is the issue here

[oak tangle]

Bro gonna be so excited when he finds out about dawnbringer

[ancient iris]

I'm saying paladin keeps eating at and indirectly nerfing hiero

[ebon cedar]

its almost as if hiero was also a problem

[ancient iris]

Yeah but a nerf this bad was not warranted alas it's week one and I'm just trying to get it fixed

[oak tangle]

Dawn kinda sucks now that shadows can’t do as much dmg and rbless is mediocre though

[tribal dagger]

(It has the exact same ability)

[violet tide]

would be cool if cleric had a skill that had a recourse meter instead of cooldown

[ancient iris]

Dawn isn't even a support bro it's just one ability that's nice ig but anyone can have it

[violet tide]

it has divine beam or whatever its called

sundrops

hol from cleric

[oak tangle]

typically no since crouch left click abil is used on every class

[pastel steppe]

??? it has a SINGLE non support spell. Even its lifeline is (terrible) support at the cost of being bad at acutally saving your life

in DD where lightning bottle is bad, dawn is a pure support tree. Even in zenith the reason you run dawn is for its support abitlies. Yes you have bottle which is strong but if we are being real bottle cannot compare to the 2 caster trees its true value comes from having bottle and other things.

[oak tangle]

erm bottle is better clearing if you get dream rng every run

[pastel steppe]

the dream RNG in question (getting the caster trees damage passives lol)

[oak tangle]

or was, with trivium being so much worse lbottle kinda sucks

[tough kettle]

Grab I quit bid on blessing charms

[ancient iris]

Bro all its abilities suck

I'm sorry but it's true

[pastel steppe]

half of the abitlies are good (ward, bottle, sunlight, Rblessing, sundrops, enlightenment) having half of the abitlies being good is better then most trees.

earth having 2 good abils 😭

[tough kettle]

3

[violet blade]

What if we deleted injectors and made death impactful again so healing and mob debuffs from support would be useful again
Woah why does it seem like old monumenta had class identities that were more unique and made more sense

[clever thistle]

given from my experience in challenge cyan after update, it does make me feel that heal from support is important(soothsayer here), but that kind of situation doesn't exist in other place, and for some player even in cyan challenge support is no need because death does nothing to them(no punishment + anvil being free)

most of current content either

1. too easy no need support
2. be a aoe is better support
3. support only need for buff dps

and with issue about

1. heal is worse then absorb and your own potion injector (can we delete it)
2. our content is fast paced nowaday + most of meta/damage class have movement, is hard for support to keep up with them

is really hard for support to exist/make ppl wiliing play it outside of boss dps

[pastel steppe]

if you delete PI people will literally just use splash potions in their hot bars you will still have on demand insta heal

[clever thistle]

that's what we do that before

and it open more space to balance game/increase player skill, instead have a panic button in your hotbar that will always work

[pastel steppe]

before I had PI half of my hotbar was insta heal because nothing is better; having PI let me acutally run new items

[gleaming moth]

hotbar splash potions are much more limited than pi

[pastel steppe]

also PI letting you use non insta heal potions effectively is very fun, even though its not as strong as insta heal stacking (please unnerf dichen energy brew 😭)

[oak tangle]

real ones use pi for non healing pots

[clever thistle]

i agree since there has some short duration potion that will probably only useful when u put it into pi

[oak tangle]

i used to keep furys in my pi for dps sets and then had an ii for hp in some other sets

[pastel steppe]

also PI lets you have quench on every potion you drink 😋

[clever thistle]

i know my friend just use it for... more storage...

[pastel steppe]

I don't care if nutrient is better !

[clever thistle]

depend on what u use

[gleaming moth]

in general it's going to be nearly impossible to beat out an on demand high level instant heal pot as any level of support player unless you can just drop an invuln aura

wow handles pots by just not allowing more than 1 per category per combat

[clever thistle]

^
i think pi kind of defeat one of main point of support

combine with the part that support class doesn't have moment so they are hard to keep with those damage class

[oak tangle]

part of why dawn was mostly just useful for rbless

[clever thistle]

thus damage class still need some heal

[pastel steppe]

is that a bad thing? do we really need a class to be relegated to just being a heal bot? I still get use out of healing spells even with PI existing anyways since they are not effected by healing sickness

[oak tangle]

i dont even know why rbless was changed 6% is such a pathetic increase

[clever thistle]

one of reason i hate pi is it take out what support class can offer

like u said i also don't like support being just heal bot

(dawn skill be like)

[pastel steppe]

well theres also the issue of ward just being much better then the other 2 healing skills

[clever thistle]

i want support get more play, to allow player have higher skill ceil, to allow more build devirsity

pls make totem of savalation can move...

[pastel steppe]

divine beam is low cooldown + low absorption + in a very competitive bow ability spot. Totem is just extremely weak at everything it does.

[gleaming moth]

people just ain't using totem right imo. i got like 2 charms for totem and the team basically just treats it as invulnerability

[hot elm]

It’s useless

I have seen max totem and used it, it’s bad

[gleaming moth]

the main dps just eats the spider attacks during dps phases because of a totem sitting there when i've got it up

[violet blade]

I think the answer here is that you never have to build yourself as a healing bot, in the old days we'd build paladin for half support/healing and half damage
You could probably build a heal bot hiero if you wish and if your team desires? But as others get better they will need less healing and you can move towards more dmg oriented abilities which will speed up clearing (which was the main form of progression back in the days as equips were didn't have much power compared to class abilities)

Unfortunately none of this really makes sense with how little of an impact death has, as well as the dominance of lootrunning in all sources of content

[oak tangle]

for which ascension?

[hot elm]

The main dps should be getting one shot by bite if they in the right set don’t @ me 🤭

[gleaming moth]

usually 8-10 when we were playing a couple months back

[hot elm]

It’s useless in 15 tbh

[gleaming moth]

we aren't trying to stress ourselves out for no reason

[pastel steppe]

well zenith is a kill or be killed meta so even charmed totems arent going to be useful for super swishy players

[clever thistle]

u can see the difference between "meta" and player that have fun with their thing

[hot elm]

Yeah true

Totem is decent for when you can actually take a couple hits

[pastel steppe]

DD is not a kill or be killed meta, but totem is simply a weak skill there and since there are no charms, why not take some other swap like Meteor instead.

[hot elm]

Later on though, I find you getting one shot is much higher chance so totem can’t out heal basic attacks

[oak tangle]

yeah i can understand why then, for me i never even choose totem because im limited to 4 dawn actives and ward/sunlight/rbless/sundrops is what i prefer to use

[pastel steppe]

true, the abil cap means that dawn isnt too bothered by having redundant abilities anyways. You just take the acutally good heal spell and move on

[hot elm]

Yes

[pastel steppe]

oh also for depths, having healing is acutally very valuable for earth players since they can't live of PI healing because of healing sickness.

[oak tangle]

tbh this is the first time ive looked at totem and it looks so much more rng based than other skills, at twisted its straight up 2x better than legendary

[pastel steppe]

soothing combos gets haste 2 at twisted but only haste 1 at every other level

oh and enlightenment jumps from 7% chance of better abitlies up to 30 at twisted level dawn twisted skills are very weird

[gleaming moth]

meant to generally be a high reward and less of an extra tier

esp. with it's creation in mind, being the rarer twisted rooms in DD

[wanton scarab]

Can cz steel not get dmg loss from every balance update pls

It's now even worse due to wand aspect and boon of the pit becoming additive

And as a spellsteel I get very little sharp stacks in clear so only compensation in damage is proj mastery

[modern ingot]

#gameplay-discussion message some thoughts on support apoth after the changes

figured id link it here since the update hit hiero heavily, allowing more support playstyles to come out

might try soothsayer support, though i feel like the valid soothsayer build is just magic with some aptitude so you deal aoe damage and still somewhat support your team

[pastel steppe]

support sooth 💔

[modern ingot]

i tried sooth back when it released, and it wasnt competetive with hiero at all

especially since it required so much more effort to pull of and stil did less

[pastel steppe]

the thing about that class is that the regular chain healing is good enough already so its pointless to charm it. Then the whirlwind totem charms are all garbage. So theres just nothing to run to improve your supporting capabilities in any meaningful way.

[modern ingot]

this might have changed with this update

[modern ingot]

and sanctuary... well sanctuary

[pastel steppe]

sooth is played as an offensive support class. You are still largely a clear class that can occasionally provide help to your team.

[tough kettle]

Hi

[pastel steppe]

I personally acutally like this being the sooth meta and wish that it was more effective, rather then sooth becoming a pure support class.

[modern ingot]

i dont think sooth can ever become a pure support class

there are just not that many skills to work with

unless a spec skill changed some base skills entirely

or there were actually impactful charms (unlikely, hard to program and even more to balance)

[gleaming moth]

in general this is kind of where i was aiming it to be, to be clear

provide boons/heals, but be an active contributor in offense beyond that as well

[ebon cedar]

healing doesnt work as well also because eating and saturation exist

and this isnt something like hypixel where the health regens way slower

[oak tangle]

Sliver of Perfection -> NEW PROJ ARMOR HELM

[plush ice]

@modern ingot repost, was messing with the automod filter to try and stop some scam bots

[tough kettle]

Use google lens

[plush ice]

well I still have it

per @modern ingot

to be clear, im still going off of my experience with sooth a long time ago, but i feel like because of this design choice coupled with the complexity of shaman in general, it will be impossible for a human to ever take everything there is out of sooth's kit. For example, while throwing a whirlwind totem you want to keep it close to yourself, but also close to your team, and you want to stand in it, and you want other to stand in it. Now, if the other player is melee, thats just impossible basically, if youre both ranged, its still hard since a lot of ranged classes kite A LOT, and as shaman its ALWAYS easier to throw totems offensively rather than defensively (which is kind of ironic tbh). Then there is the fact that the teammates will probably not go out of their way to stand in the whirlwind totem for some reason, and even if they do it consciously you have to throw it in a perfect spot that will not get overrun by mobs in 2 seconds, but also not be so far that you both have trouble engaging.
And that is ONE (1) (singular) (one) skill. This becomes an issue when you have so many more skills, and you can either get overwhelmed, tactically use only some of your skills, or dump them all at once and probably achieve a better outcome than trying to minmax everything anyway

[modern ingot]

if i had a nickel for every time someone had to paste my shaman feedback in my stead i would have 2 nickels. which isnt a lot, but its weird that it happened twice

[modern ingot]

TL;DR: Shaman hard, skills complex to use both for yourself and the team, brain rots after playing, gave an example from whirlwind totem
to be clear i dont mean its impossible to play, or that the design in itself is bad. just my experience its a lot of effort and thinking in comparison to cbless spam off-cd, or throwing pots as alch

[modern ingot]

i could genuinely rant about this for days. ARGH
as a healer I HATE saturation and PI, its literally better than my whole kit combined, but not hard to use at all and kinda free tbh

i cant describe how better absorption felt when i used it as apoth.

well this is all slightly outside the scope of the update. Bottom line is, the support classes are all more in line now due to hiero losing its easy to use stat stick that threw whatever other classes had to offer out of the window. The devs can now focus more on making seperate identities for the support specs, and maybe diversifying their ways of helping so its less brainless.

[snow ruin]

Changing healing would require a huge rework in incoming damage numbers

I think it'd be worth it but I wanted to mention how monumental of a task it'd be

[modern ingot]

monumental...

[snow ruin]

I'd actually kill saturation healing altogether ( but buff some of the self sustain buy-ins to allow building for it still)

[modern ingot]

yeah healing changes have been discussed for a looong time, and its completely up to the devs if they want to take this on, but a similar discussion has taken place regarding damage scaling and here we are

[snow ruin]

Then kill health recovery potions too, by giving them a global 30 second cooldown

[tough kettle]

Ye again whole game mechanics rework

[snow ruin]

IH (plus injector) make glass fucks more resilient than they should be, without support
Saturation let's people that do very little investment into self sustain run rampant without healing for a while (with a single life drain on a piece of gear that's already good)

This is off topic but health recovery is imo something that should be revisited with the goal of strengthening build identity (and the qol of not eating every 10 seconds)

[violet blade]

Just for the record I don't think damage numbers were ever changed when PI was introduced (R3 did not exist back then)

Current R1 R2 numbers were pretty much balanced around you having only one splash IH potion on your hotbar at most in fights

[snow ruin]

That tracks, since IH already existed in all it's burst healing goodness

God damn ih.. 3!!!!

[oak tangle]

will damage situationals be getting buffed/reworked? a lot of them are far less useful now

[violet blade]

IH3 is probably the reason why Kaul has a bunch of attacks that are difficult to dodge and hit you for 7 hearts

It's interesting how back then people were always talking about how IH and eating is overpowered and players are already near impossible to kill because food healing is so strong
Then PI got introduced

[pastel steppe]

food healing is for sure a much bigger issue then PI is. 1.9 regeneration is just completely nuts and it makes it so just about any good is like a regen 2 potion in addition to whatever buff it also grants. Then you can even stack this saturation to have it for later and to sprint longer. Lastly since you lose hunger so quickly when you take a smidge of damage you have to eat constantly. You get numb to it after a while but if you stop and think about it; at least 10% of your time playing minecraft is just the eating animation.

epic food items have to be extremely powerful to justify you ever wanting to have more then 1 food source at a time since their benefit cant be just healing when even steak is overpowered.

I'm not sure if its even possible to change the hunger mechanics though and if it was it would require and entire server revamp to feel good; since monumenta is largely build around small and medium fights chained together where you have a some downtime to heal up. Doing something like adding back slow natural regen would really hurt that gameplay loop.

so the game just sort of has to be balanced around every body having super regeneration; I can get why its so hard to make everything feel fair

[violet blade]

Saturation stacking is definitely pretty broken especially the introduction of more recent consumables that lets you eat even at full hunger

But food healing has always been why CTMs pretty much almost always kills you with burst damage and not sustained damage

PI just went ahead and said "ok nope now you can full counter burst damage as well"

[pastel steppe]

well PI is just a natural evolution of healing potions. You can only improve those by letting you stack them or giving them more healing. Insta heal has been broken the minute it was added to minecraft in basically every context.

[violet blade]

Yeah I think what I'm trying to say is IH should've never been evolved upon and should probably be given out a lot more sparsely

Like if you know something is broken it doesn't make sense to make something even more broken

[pastel steppe]

insta heal was arguably even more powerful before they buffed eating so much too; you used to only be able to heal with golden apple and splash heal.

[outer phoenix]

The world when infernal 17 (without saturation helping you fire becomes threatens lethal on every hit without intervention)

[pastel steppe]

well it makes sense to get an upgrade to splash healing when it plays such a big role in the game already. so far everything in monumenta gets upgraded at some point.

I think stacking potions (and then adding healing sickness) is a much better approach then making healing potions heal more then 40% health instead.

[pastel steppe]

I disagree, if potions are going to play a big role in the game then they NEED to be accessible; or else its just to frustrating to have to pay up to play effectively. Having expensive healing potions would make wasting a single one feel extremely punishing; its why nobody uses totems of undying.

I'd rather have a 1000 weak potions then 1 strong potion that costs the same as them

[rare night]

Potions should't play as big of a role as they do

[violet blade]

Honestly I don't think potions were meant to play that big of a role in the game when the server started

[rare night]

Because incoming damage is balanced like ass

[violet blade]

At some point TM was super obsessed with resource sinks so a bunch of powerful pots got made and then pots felt like they played a big role in the game

[pastel steppe]

walk into the alchemy labs gain, that dungeon SHOWERS YOU with potions. You cannot walk a single step without getting another potion. I knew 10 minutes into my play through that potions were going to be super important before I even knew what my class did.

[violet blade]

I think this pretty much started the cycle of whoops we made some super powerful pots -> now the enemies need to do some cheap attack to kill you -> make even more broken pots to encourage people to spend resource on them when new content drops -> ...

[rare night]

Yeah...

[pastel steppe]

well we don't need to resort to using the OP potions to win right now; just working off the basic buffs is plenty.

[gleaming moth]

beyond extreme end game stuff, agreed

[pastel steppe]

nobody is out here popping casino potions just to fight world bosses for example. The only time I even see expensive buffs get used is in EDD (corridors players also probably use them too)

[rare night]

I mean, you don't have to use them sure, but you can't disagree with the fact that they massively help

[gleaming moth]

i can't imagine a15 being a thing without em

but a15 is extreme for extreme's sake

[pastel steppe]

and honestly this is probably the best for the game. Just keep it so the basic potions are all you need and phase out super buffs

[outer phoenix]

Another factor to consider- Monumenta 's difficulty is loaded in replayability (delves), something most CTMs do not design for. Areas are always "new" and players have no knowledge about the dungeon layout, spawners, and mobs to expect. Each run of a dungeon on monumenta brings more experience for the player, making it even more difficult to wear out the player with attrition compared to burst since they will generally know how much damage will be coming in. Monumenta has some incredible movement tools as well, so unless the terrain is particularly hostile, they can disengage easier with the longer Time To Death

[gleaming moth]

do i hear the next dungeon needs 2 high ceilings althroughout

teehee

[oak tangle]

Cutter my beloved

[violet blade]

I think that's the choice the team eventually has to make, because having a skill that gives you 30% dmg with a 50% uptime when 20+% dmg pots exists is kinda oof for the suport class, same with healing pots vs healing abilities

[pastel steppe]

another thing about expensive potions is that managing their duration is really frustrating. When you are playing with powerful buffed your encouraged to make the most of them and it makes any downtime feel really punishing. Sometimes its a good idea to just log of the server and only rejoin right when your group is about to start playing again just to keep as much duration as possible; which is just stupid.

when you have a cheap strength potion, your not stressed about losing its duration at all

if you die; its no big deal! if you die using casino potions you wasted 10 har

[pastel steppe]

currently a15 players arent fully abusing potions. We use some splash potions for floor 1 and bosses but we are not fully buffed up and only have potions for about a third of the run.

and thank god; since it would be stupid if you had to use potions that are more expensive then the rewards you get after winning.

[snow ruin]

Yeah I agree, and it has nothing to do with how "hard" the content is too

It's braindead how we mitigate damage imo, and your health, as a resource, dictates a very small window of time for where mistakes add up and cause a death

Get slammed by mobs 10 seconds ago? Well that didn't happen anymore

There's barely any resource attrition either from that

[modern ingot]

i havent ever thought about that, but its so true... the support class can be replaced by a better version by just buying 3 pots for like 10 ar maybe
its not only the health its also the stats

[pastel steppe]

to be fair MC servers struggling with potion balance is not new. Wynncraft for example has to have most of their common potions be completely useless and then have their good potions be more expensive then the content you are playing; just to keep that game somewhat balanced. You can break wynn in half if you use potions; but the server is built in a way where its not expecting you to have potions and it makes potions inaccessible to avoid making the game to easy. However that server has the problem of potions just having no reason to even exist anymore and the few potions that are good and cheap are completely insane. They tried so hard to make the game not center around buffs and its still flawed.

[indigo grotto]

also silver pauldron just makes bers a healing machine

[snow ruin]

Mass stackable consumables moment

Tedious to upkeep so only used in hard content

[indigo grotto]

2.1 seems to have made everything at least 2 times harder

[pastel steppe]

another mmo, skyblock just said "fuck it potions are now the default" You just always have buffs at all times and there are no more potions (well they are but only for one of their runescape skill systems that you can just ignore)

well it was like that when I played*

out of the 2, I acutally liked the "potions are the default" system more though. It felt more freeform then having an aspect of the game that is intentionally being underutilized and obstructed.

[snow ruin]

That idea with only allowing a limited number of potion buffs is not a bad idea

Thinking about what the actual point of potions in games is... and either there's an engaging game loop for upkeeping your potions (which I don't think I've ever seen attempted) or the potions are better as a "pick your good poison" build variety thing

[gleaming moth]

akin to the guardian elixirs n stuff in wow, where you'd basically be able to have 1 guardian elixir and one combat elixir at a time?

active at a time*

[snow ruin]

Yeah I like that

[gleaming moth]

interesting

[snow ruin]

That was what I saw earlier mentioned somewhere and I liked the sound of it

Of course IH is a whole different beast altogether

[gleaming moth]

as it is in wow and others, a category of "these pots aren't an elixir, so they all share a long CD and 1 per combat limit"

although both of those systems seem.... difficult at best to implement, esp. the health one

[pastel steppe]

we kinda have that though. The basic strength, resistance and speed potions don't stack. Its the alternative buffs that cause issues with potion stacking.

oh on the topic of potions sucking, can we delete dark thunder please and thank you

why do races have the highest entry fee in the game to play!

[worn cobalt]

+140% speed speechbubble

additive speed rework when

[old needle]

TM Makes World Records Unbeatable, Part 20

also if they did additive speed in the same way they did additive damage i don’t think much would change because potions are separate multiplier from gear anyway

[plush ice]

Petalbrews and the old potion injector were blatantly overpowered and only really survived so long because of their high cost.

No cooldown, none of that healing sickness, just infinite ih3 to survive any encounter

[merry bane]

the true potion chugger

the ORIGINAL rogue speech bubble

[vivid osprey]

using petalbrews when you could use extinguishers.

[plush ice]

It was pretty rare to use until people started farming Boots of Pride and selling Will on the market

[vivid osprey]

Turned out selling people wasnt allowed, so they switched to just selling the currency instead.

[tight eagle]

just recently in cz or group content I have a new strat where you keep pi (well it doesn’t even matter if it’s a pi anymore) in inventory and have pot in your hotbar and you can either use it yourself or splash people
And honestly it’s paying off
Like believe it or not I saved a bunch of people
I’m convinced it’s actually good in group content when you don’t have cleric/ward
And also shows how common consumables are that I don’t even mind just chug it at my teammate when I’m not in danger

[snow ruin]

It's crazy how much untapped cheese potential there is

[finite shale]

do potions splashed on others apply healing sickness?

[tight eagle]

don't think so
cuz normal pot usage
the downside to this is that you have to put another in your hotbar
but in most cases you'd only use at most 1 pot per encounter anyways

[merry bane]

let iridium injector swap between modes and turn into a potion cannon that lets any potion be thrown

potions launched this way from a Cleric are 10% stronger

[tight eagle]

pi rework idea
pi is now a potion specific storage store up to 54 potions and when right clicked in inventory spew 1 potion in your inventory
removed hotbar functionality

[valid topaz]

I might be one of the 2 sooth players out there

[daring halo]

So for the inevitable 1.20.x update that adds like that Pickaxe mining speed and what not, what else comes with it that could effect mm balance? (probably doesnt go here)

[finite shale]

isn't food item data super manipulatable post nbt rework?

[gleaming moth]

attack reach

[finite shale]

so custom hunger/sat values on foods?

that too

[daring halo]

This would be super nice

[finite shale]

can we have at least one edible door somewhere

[daring halo]

Friend

[finite shale]

🔥

[daring halo]

Would attack reach be higher on slower swords (telum i guess) then on faster ones (sote?)

[worn cobalt]

~sug add make a new peb setting that makes pi/ii a virtual injector sorta like virtual firm

[gleaming moth]

no idea how it'd be used for different things, just that it's come up

[daring halo]

I mean telum is a big sword

[ebon cedar]

something like that i guess, i was thinking more on things like tridents

[finite shale]

melee tridents get an actual niche?

how does the reach bonus interact with swordsweep actually

[vivid osprey]

Tridents having extra reach would be fire

[tight eagle]

no the point is to not make pi spammable

[candid pike]

SPEARS!?

[valid topaz]

I would not recommend messing too much with attack reach

[candid pike]

I would recommend messing around a lot with attack speed!

[median beacon]

^

[gleaming moth]

don't we already have that

[tough kettle]

Reason why axe is meta in cz

[median beacon]

i belive Jimbob meant attack range

[vivid osprey]

Mace with 30 block reach

[old needle]

short swords

[finite shale]

this weapon performing too well? sentenced to 1.5 block arms.

[vivid osprey]

I will say if you’re gonna mess with reach it has to be rarely, or as a legendary option.

[gleaming moth]

reach can go both ways 😛

[finite shale]

or as a more consistent thing to a weapon type (tridents)

[vivid osprey]

I mean it both ways

[finite shale]

daggers weapon type real?

[old needle]

new delve infusion that makes you take 5% less time to eat a food per level

[finite shale]

that genuinely feels strong

too much so for a delve infusion

[vivid osprey]

5% is too much

[finite shale]

sentenced to the 1%/level treatment

placeblast

[vivid osprey]

Sentenced to not really useful treatment

[glad sorrel]

new parameter cooking 😋

[old needle]

maybe? it doesn’t feel that much of a difference, plus there’s already the quick-eating something right after cd thing

[finite shale]

i mean eating food in 80% the time plus whatever percent from revelation is pretty good

[old needle]

but that’s a bug ig so

[vivid osprey]

+2% increased reach/ level delve infusion

[finite shale]

placeblast cooks again

[oak tangle]

Mfw they release a new sword with -.1 reach and it ends up being impossible to kill golems or hoglins with it

[finite shale]

can we give sliver like a fast eat time compared to other consumables though so it's not entirely worthless

[old needle]

i feel like it would only see use with either sliver right after cons elixir, or to annoy people 25% more with non-cd consumables that you can eat at full hunger

[surreal blade]

can we give sliver like a slow eat time compared to other consumables though so it's even more worthless

[finite shale]

dude eating food takes up so much of your time

[old needle]

how often are you eating food

what’s your usual setup

[finite shale]

a 25% reduction equals to 33% more food per food

sliver fol dew

[surreal blade]

can eight slivers combine into Perfection, the first dungeon Legendary

[old needle]

there’s your problem don’t use sliver

just use fflame

[finite shale]

No.

[old needle]

Yes.

[plush ice]

I will say any weapon that doesn't have the default reach or more is probably gonna be immediately terrible just because you can no longer safely melee

[finite shale]

if the players get their arms cut mobs will have to too

[surreal blade]

pakstf can you introduce extendo arms so I can make melee into ranged

[plush ice]

Not a dev so can't do that

[finite shale]

it's not gonna work with most mobs being just 'you TOUCH miette?' and slapping you in retaliation

[surreal blade]

ban enough players to form a series of stored bits and arrange them into extendo arms

[gleaming moth]

extendo arms will become a new default on dev tools

[plush ice]

Honestly attack reach would really just allow the creation of Spears and other polearms as proper weapons

[old needle]

i want more reach so bad just for golems

[gleaming moth]

because extendo arms is very nice for "i don't want that mob here anymore"

[glad sorrel]

new class for spear

[old needle]

skt race construct in particular is so bad

[finite shale]

polearm class?

polearm warrior!

[old needle]

sometimes i wish there were items with like Throwing Knife and Infinity

but that’s basically a snowball so doesn’t change much

but i like silly weapon ideas

[ebon cedar]

I really just like it since it opens up more creative design for mainhands

[merry bane]

i don't see it appearing on anything other than very special weapons like tridents or stuff like Telum Immoriel or Eclipse Splitter

i.e big fucking sword has longer reach

very generic

[outer phoenix]

Exalted sword of the exiled gets -2 reach

[vivid osprey]

Can big hat have more reach?

[old needle]

can big hat have more damage :3

[merry bane]

so fucking true

[old needle]

me when “REGION 1 MAGIC - No changes”

although there were 3 valley items that were listed under other categories but all three of them were by 2-3% only

[snow ruin]

Advancing shadows now increases reach

[gleaming moth]

rogue now plays at dagger range at all times

[old needle]

advancing shadows users

[vivid osprey]

imagine the high damage offhand daggers have -reach

so you have to sacrifice safety for damage

wait...

[gleaming moth]

that sounds familiar

[valid topaz]

I would very strongly oppose messing with range

its a pve mode so its a bit better

in pvp mode its pretty much an absolute no

entity scale is more interesting anyways

[tight eagle]

I doubt it's actually that good
considering scout is a class and they are not immortal

[old needle]

idk about attack reach but i like the idea of block reach for pickaxes

[valid topaz]

yeah that would be pretty interesting

imagine armor that makes you smaller 😳

might be too niche

but a curse that makes you bigger sounds pretty funny

[old needle]

i want armor that makes me bigger so i can bully everyone else for being short

[finite shale]

Curse of Chunk

[old needle]

imagine an epic mainhand that makes you 50% smaller and gives 2 block jump height

i have no idea how this would be useful but it would be monumenta’s dumbest movement tool by far

(although back in 1.20.5 early snapshots i was never able to get scale attribute on gear to work. but that’s probably fixed now)

[vivid osprey]

honestly i just want every collosal to be different mobs but they get really big as you damage them

this will be a positive change

[valid topaz]

that would be the most op item to ever exist

its like worldly protection V kind of stuff

[ebon cedar]

a lot of mobs can close the gap fast anyway so it won’t be a huge issue unless we give the weapons huge quake or kb

[valid topaz]

it would definitely be much better in a PVE yeah

feels like its better to balance it with slow attack speed

[old needle]

it’s not a get out of jail free card or anything, it being a mainhand means you can’t build (unless from offhand) and you can’t mine

[valid topaz]

you can still jump around

imagine it on scout

[vivid osprey]

weapon range should effect radius of quake and sweeping edge

[snow ruin]

Nerd pole from further up would probably be more effective

[slate surge]

can cblessing get some love

[merry flame]

i mean there was a combat snapshot with variable range and apparently it gained a small following

[pastel steppe]

one of the main complains people had about that snapshot was variable range messing with a decade worth of muscle memory.

even right now some people already really hate the cumbersome weapons because they slightly alter your melee timings. imagine how unpopular something that dramatically changed your timing would be.

[tight eagle]

imagine -jumpheight item that makes you bhop faster

[slate surge]

also regicide pls its so weak rn

[stoic citrus]

Idk if the enchant itself needs a buff, but buffs to the regicide charms would be nice

[pastel steppe]

ngl I have not noticed a difference between regicide before and after patch.

[empty torrent]

Hey, I've been thinking of writing a bit of my feedback and complaints but I realized some of my issues might be things that this changelog wasn't planning on solving in the first week of coming out or wasn't considered an issue in the first place. Soo I'm writing this to ask any TM members who worked on this to maybe explain the main ( if not all ) goals of these changes ( example of goals would be reducing extreme DPS via buff stacking, certain class balancing, situational balancing?, etc. ).

[sterile swift]

(10.42.0)

For the update on July 4, 2024

Major Balance Change: The Additive Damage Rework
Introduction:
After well over a year of development and several weeks of testing and bug fixing, the balance team is pleased to release a major overhaul to damage calculations we've termed the Additive Damage Rework. Under the previous system, all non-flat damage buffs were multiplicative - damage buffs become greater than the sum of their parts very quickly. This led to the following issues:

• There was a large spread between median and maximum damage output. This led to issues designing mob and boss encounters since health values would either be excessive for average players or low for optimal group compositions.
• High damage gear, class buffs, infusions, and other damage enhancements were required for high level content. Not using these tools meant significant underperformance in comparison even if skill levels and strategies between groups were held constant.
• Many classes had an advantage over others due to innate damage stacking or were limited to prevent excessive damage output. For example, the base damage of Alchemist Potions between Region 2 and Region 3 were near identical due to damage buffs in Region 3.

[stoic citrus]

Was bfoce fixed completely yet

Cool cool, guardian dmg seems fine to me now then

Full combo dmg that abused several multipliers obviously went down, from 362 to 282
But usual dmg is still good to me

[ancient iris]

Can we buff volley

[rare night]

no

[ebon cedar]

volley is definitely something at the moment

but moving it here i think honestly was a healthy change, even if not the most planned

[modern ingot]

oh, some feedback for new heavenly boon (u) (since that technically arrived with this update)

i think its placebo at most

lets be honest with ourselves, 1 second (maximum) of cooldown reduction every 8 seconds conditionally isnt anything useful

its even worse because of all the conditions.
In order to be used at maximum theoretical capacity (which imo still sucks lmao) you would have to:
kill an undead mob right after the previous cooldown ended
drop a pot from it
be in range of your teammates
for:
maximum of 1 second cd reduction
and then wait another 8 seconds

personally i liked the previous iteration, bar the class change after doing it making the whole thing useless as a cleric skill, but if i had to give feedback to improve it i feel like the maximum cd reduction and cooldown have to be buffed a lot

if i had to give my honest opinion though, i dont like it at all, and would rather see some other mechanics than cooldown reduction explored through the support aspect of cleric

[surreal blade]

hboon U should drop harming potions on enemies

[modern ingot]

i actually think on a conceptual level this is a great idea. by this i mean adding enhancements that turn the offensive aspect of cleric into a defensive one, and vice versa

[tough kettle]

It should able drop haste pot

[modern ingot]

haste pot would be nigh useless imo. 1 minute 30 seconds with luck involved isnt something you can rely on when building, and once you reach bhop speed the additional haste is also minimal

well thats from the perspective of attack speed. for faster spawner breaking itd be nice

[ancient iris]

Yeah ngl I'm bias but it's a great change unitoncally

[snow ruin]

Volley was high key busted

[ancient iris]

Yeah

Now it like

Can wipe basic mobs but anything that... shouldn't be 1 tapped isn't 1 tapped anymore

[worn cobalt]

scout can’t solo gallery anymore

they gotta reset the lbs for gallery most of the records are unbeatable now

[indigo grotto]

just wait until we get more wool dungeons