Lootrunning.

[rotund leaf]

cant they outrun most twisteds?

[hollow shale]

Yes

[sleek badge]

as long as a significant amount of loot isnt tied to any sort of completion of content, lootrunning will fundamentally exist

I actually think its not worth ruminating on it and we would be better off to live and let live. The economy might not be "the best" but that's not a big deal

[chilly basin]

i mean generally stronger mini-bosses

i didnt even consider the economical effects of lootrunners but yeah

i just considered the disgust and hate i have for them

[hollow shale]

i wouldn't even consider them a major factor for the economy personally

[chilly basin]

ermmmmmmm

[hollow shale]

or at least, not to the extent ppl seem to insist they are

[chilly basin]

they r def quite the extent

there is a reason geodes and whatever the zenith mat is are 2 dollars

[hollow shale]

then you're fundamentally failing to understand their effect on the economy

[sweet niche]

that's not lootrunning

[slate sable]

Tbf yeah, the ammount of currency you get by playing normally is enough to make you self-sufficient without needing to heavily interact with the market

[hollow shale]

people don't lootrun just to lootrun, they lootrun because they want money to spend it on something

[sleek badge]

it only matters to people who are maining monu as a capitalism simulator

[hollow shale]

a large portion of that money is going to be epics, which most ppl buy from npcs, removing that money they just generated right out of the economy

or masterworks

or infusions

its what happens afterwards where there's no longer anything to buy where the problems occur

you're still playing content, but you've run out of things to spend it on and are generating more money still

[slate sable]

Mw definitely takes a huge chunk of HAR out of the economy. Even just a base MW2 takes 8 HAR to take to MW4 without taking the other mats into account, so imagine full sets, and then infusions as another thing

[sleek badge]

also, its probably the case that edd and acz are more detrimental to the economy too

[wet nebula]

yeah a15

[hollow shale]

I mean there are probably people who do this because they enjoy this type of gameplay as well, but I'm speaking from a general case

[proven ore]

What if that something doesn't exist yet and they're lootrunning to gain money for the future to just chuck money at the problem instead of playing the game. Which could be worded as "lootrunning just to lootrun"

[slate sable]

Eec in the corner:

[sleek badge]

spend as much time in edd as a forum and get a stack of hyper more

[proven ore]

I think it's completely wrong to think people stop lootrunning as soon as they have everything they want

[hollow shale]

i'm not claiming they stopped lootrunning

I'm talking about the point in time when it actually causes issues

there's a specific situation where the money getting generated starts actually entering the economy, and that situation is where inflation starts happening

[proven ore]

Ok fair I don't think we disagree you just worded it weirdly

Yeah, once the lootrunners have spent all their money it starts piling up and becoming more of an issue, but they're still lootrunning the whole time

[hollow shale]

the point I'm trying to make is, ppl are confusing cause and effect here

[slate sable]

The moment they don't have anything left to spend, that HAR is gonna start piling up, and unlike HXP and HCS which have sinks, HAR doesn't really have anything else to be wasted on...
Cue the 10k HAR cz charms

[hollow shale]

lootrunning is just one method of a player entering the problematic state of "I have too much money"

you can still do that just playing regularly, it'll just happen slower, but it's still gonna happen anyway

[chilly basin]

nah

[hollow shale]

stonkco pretty much exists as a result of several dozen players all entering that state and deciding they didn't have anything better to do than shove it into a single shop and letting 2 players play capitalist simulator with the accumulating money

[chilly basin]

lootrunning is the fualt of everytihng

[proven ore]

As an ironman player who doesn't use the market, if I didn't have my own crazy collection goals I'd have the same problem in R3 as I do in R1/2, too much resources with nothing to spend it on. I don't think this is a uniquely R3 issue

[hollow shale]

its not, r1/2 just have some things slowing down the rate they reach that point

1. more ppl play r3 so the economy evolves at a faster pace
2. r1 and r2 have 2 long term reoccuring money sinks to release pressure

[slate sable]

The ironic thing is that stonkco pretty much became the entire monumenta economy for mats now. Hell people talk about prices in "Lowstonk, midstonk, highstonk" terms now

[sleek badge]

even as a hypothetical the underlying loot issue is daunting to contemplate
"make loot based on spawners mined instead of having it in chests" - spawner rushing is almost as easy
and dungeons are too open-ended to reward loot on "encounter" completion

[hollow shale]

namely, xp bottles are useful for well.. xp for infusions n stuff and whenever there's too much hcs, ppl start deciding hyperinflations look good as trophies

[chilly basin]

for group scaling their is already a flawless system in place it seems that combines spawners and mob kills

[hollow shale]

pre CZ when ppl spammed DD instead, HCS was plentiful enough that ppl started working towards 2nd or even 3rd hyperinflations, for reference

[chilly basin]

u have to be active in the dungeon to contribute to player scaling

at least cz speedrun requires you to do the bosses

same with dd

[sleek badge]

solo lootrunning is more profitable anyways I believe

[hollow shale]

solo lootrunning also has a hard cap built in

at least for r1/2 anyway

[sleek badge]

I like that you do have to beat a boss in cz

[hollow shale]

r3's in a unique situation atm

[chilly basin]

yeah im saying implement the same mechanics and system just for loot scaling itself

[hollow shale]

you're still limited by the amount of dgns you can open in a week, and pre-anti lootrun you got capped by the number of overworld instances in existence for r1/2

[chilly basin]

mfw when cz dd strikes]

[slate sable]

An easy band aid for the HAR inflation rn would be adding sinkatron to r3. Wouldn't solve the issue, but it mitigates some of the damage with a flex sink leaderboard

[hollow shale]

can these really be considered lootrunning if you're killing the required bosses, minimum spawners, and looting the chests

[chilly basin]

yes??

[hollow shale]

so doing the content is lootrunning then

[chilly basin]

running it down killing nothing and mindless clicking on spawners and chests isnt real gameplay

[sleek badge]

I was under the impression that lootrunning referred to extreme low-effort ways of accumulating money

[chilly basin]

thats what it is yes

[sleek badge]

being good at a strike and having it down to a habit frontloaded that effort

[chilly basin]

why is this turning into another skill debate make it stop

but it doesnt require much skill to lootrun a strike

[hollow shale]

should we ban inferno/decay and aoe builds then

[slate sable]

We are looping again 💀

[chilly basin]

yeah

im an avid hater of all DoT builds as well

and play styles

[hollow shale]

doesn't even need to be dot

[chilly basin]

i hate play styles that require no effort for big reward

[hollow shale]

just build enough dmg on aoe

[sleek badge]

you implied skill by downplaying regular content played straight

[hollow shale]

at high enough levels of optimization, "doing too much dmg" functionally becomes lootrunning

and that's not even a skill check, its just a stat check

[chilly basin]

sure if ur sweaty enough you can go as sage in a strike and go super duper fast or u can just put on a tanky dot set and run it down

[sleek badge]

for me the difference is whether you engage with the given content or not, I never considered any sort of skill as part of the equation, just the presented content and the general ideal intention of how players interact with it

[hollow shale]

killing a world boss too fast would fall under "not engaging with the content" if we based it on dev intent

if u join the 10 man kaul runs emily hosts daily we pretty much phase skip kaul everytime

[chilly basin]

i would say that too honestly putting on a dps set and insta killing a boss isnt the msot engaging

[sleek badge]

there's a difference between hyperoptimal and straight up ignoring an aspect of the game

[hollow shale]

if we go extreme enough, using potions or playing cleric or playing rogue can be considered "not engaging with content"

if too much aoe/dot is lootrunning

and too much ST is "skipping the content"

and using too many mechanics stacked on top is "unintended behavior"

[chilly basin]

yeah but being able to pick a class and killing a boss in 10-15 seconds isnt engaging to me

[hollow shale]

you've essentially ruled out the entire game

[sleek badge]

as it turns out, there's no scientific marker to indicate what counts and what doesn't

[chilly basin]

i would remove the slash its just aoe dot

[sleek badge]

but you dilute the issue when you combine two separate issues

one, that you can ignore content
the other, that you can trivialize it

[chilly basin]

idk what u guys r talking about anymore too smart

[sleek badge]

this thread's about the first one, no? hence why I rejected the idea that trivializing a strike was in scope

[hollow shale]

i don't consider these 2 separate issues personally

lootrunning is optimizing the content by minmaxing for speed/survivability

[sleek badge]

They are vastly different

[hollow shale]

dps nuking is optimizing the content by minmaxing for dps

[chilly basin]

i got confused at the point of every content being unengaged by this logic cuz it is very easy to identify engaging vs non-engaging gameplay

[sleek badge]

the effect may seem the same, but they do not come from the same places

[sweet niche]

are powerful builds then not engaging

[chilly basin]

there is a difference between clearing a content well and just evading the intended gameplay of it

aka running it down in a tank set just looting or in a dot set

being a strong build that steamrolls a dungeon is engaging but when you dont even have to look at the mobs and just go for spawners/chests i think thats non-engaging

[sweet niche]

how is dot evading gameplay

see: shaman, apoth

[chilly basin]

look at me and tell me shaman is a well designed class and tell me its engaging

apoth idk i havent even seen gameplay of it recently people just say it sucks

[sweet niche]

whatever your opinions of the gameplay, i do not think playing shaman is “evading the intended gameplay”

[chilly basin]

and either way shaman can still just evade the gameplay and run it down if the player intends to can it not???

sure you CAN place ur totems and play ring around the rosy or you can just place them and run it down

[sweet niche]

can you not do the same thing with any other class

just ignore the mobs?

[chilly basin]

yes that is lootrunning

???

[sweet niche]

so all dot is lootrunning?

i am pretty sure that is not how it works

[chilly basin]

if u run it down yes??

[chilly basin]

t

[sweet niche]

define run it down

take such

alch

fucking autocorrect

alch

[sleek badge]

I personally judge it by whether the unengaging part of it comes from strictly ignoring elements of gameplay or whether it comes from subscribing to an available gameplay element

This is because I would consider the latter just unbalanced or not my cup of tea

[sweet niche]

you brutal a mob

[chilly basin]

ignore mobs and break spawners (if required) and just break chests

[sweet niche]

ok then what? do you wait around for it to die or do you go do something more productive

[chilly basin]

what r u saying anymore im like actually just lost

[sleek badge]

old inferno pally was fucked up OP but I didn't consider it lootrunning because it was pretty obviously playing the game, just in a way that (most likely unintentionally) was way too good

[sweet niche]

in my opinion, if you are doing anything to kill mobs you are not lootrunning

[sleek badge]

a simple way to look at it is that Id consider using a bugged instant kill sword as still playing the game, but ignoring spawners to break chests as not playing the game

[chilly basin]

if thats how u wanna define it you can

[sweet niche]

if you want to complain about dot i think the lootrunning thread is the wrong place to do it

[chilly basin]

but i think if you can just loot and break spawners constantly running it down while also killing mobs its lootrunning

[sweet niche]

make a new one

[sleek badge]

imo its a much better definition because it has more meaningful implications, and isn't being tied up in a distinct realm of player balance

[chilly basin]

i mean waht im trying to say is you dont have to DOT to lootrun in the first place so the point doesnt even have relevance

at least for certain things like wool dungeons

only place i think u gotta kill mobs nowadays is strikes really

i think poi has anti-lootrun too

[wet nebula]

currency just piling up also happens with hcs/hxp, those just aren’t traded as much by people with a lot of it. HAR inflation is so much more apparent because people have a reason to spend their thousands of it on cz charms

[sleek badge]

"I kill shit too easily" can be solved
"I don't need to kill shit" can't really

[chilly basin]

ah i mean yeah

[dull root]

honestly

its just a rich player issue

poor ppl lootrunning i dont see much of an issue

just progressing faster and putting into money sinks like mw and npc trades

ppl just have too much money

for zenith charms

other pieces of content mostly rich ppl dont effect poor ppl

zenith charms do

[winged rain]

one of my hypixel friends got through labs but just immediately quit after because they were overwhelmed or smth

[rotund leaf]

hypixel players when the content isnt mining beds or coble for 3 days

[wide sorrel]

monumenta players when the content isnt break spawner or mobs for 3 days

[rotund leaf]

[shrewd cobalt]

the reason why cz mats are low is bc its the only endgame content

amd why would you buy geodes when you can buy cz mats fot way less

cz mats are worth barely anything without "lootrunners"

[dull root]

its useless anyways

only use for geode rn is annilys

and cosmetics

[lavish sonnet]

So you want to make cz harder?

[lavish sonnet]

You should learn about blizzard

[manic cedar]

166 zenith runs are done every day because people like it and its the only thing to do lol of course mats are gonna be cheap

[hollow shale]

I imagine geodes probably wouldve been similar in price to blightdust pre-cz if ppl werent opting to hoard them instead of selling

I know a number of people were holding onto multiple carriers worth of geode stacks pre-bag of hoarding

[manic cedar]

XD

[wide sorrel]

sorry they turn into cz charms

[dull root]

i wonder who that could be hmmm....

[mild needle]

ya

[broken siren]

I just want more asc

[lucid ether]

How do they make a16 hard to the people with every stat maxed

[wide sorrel]

Now all your charm and infusion only have 50% effienency

[cedar trail]

how is this thread still alive

[wide sorrel]

Crondis didn’t find it

[cedar trail]

z

every way to combat lr that has been brought up so far does nothing to combat lr and hurts non lr

[wide sorrel]

Maybe we should promote lr instead

Good for more audience and players 👍

[cedar trail]

good idea

if ur not lr dont even lfg

prereq of tenacity 24

thoughts?

[median lotus]

Because its been consistently active

[hot ginkgo]

(and no one has given a good answer to the problem)

[hollow shale]

can someone remind me what the issue was with implementing the anti-lr used in pois in dungeons/strikes

(not advocating for it to clarify, I just remember there being a reason it hasn't been done and its bothering me that I can't remember why)

[lavish sonnet]

Oceangate becoming basically empty, making new players have an empty poi

And why implementing it in ss?
"too efficent"

It was Just 22hxp/h

[hollow shale]

that's.. not what I asked?

[lavish sonnet]

Thst was the issue about why they implemented anti-lt

[hollow shale]

again still not what i'm talking about

[lavish sonnet]

What you talking about

[hot ginkgo]

they want to know why people think dungeons need an anti lr

dont need*

something like that

[hollow shale]

ignoring whether or not dungeons/strikes should have anti-lootrun

to my understanding, unless I'm misremembering it, there was a practical reason why anti-lootrun isn't a thing that exists in either

for strikes in specific, I think it had something to do with how the chest system currently works there making it more complicated than expected?

but I don't remember what issue dungeons had that would cause problems trying to implement it

[gloomy edge]

Strikes are naturally fast paced (and more loot-oriented imo) so putting in a strict anti lr might be a big damper on the fun of it

On top of the actual mechanics of how to make the “click to collect” chest trigger only in specific lootrun conditions yeah

[proven ore]

I think strikes are the natural optimised for speed content that would be absolutely killed if anti-lr was added. I'm not opposed to adding them to dungeons myself, but those are also naturally weekly locked so it's a matter of it's that worth it for the 5 people who lootrun every dungeon every week

[gloomy edge]

The system predates me but if I had to guess, anti lr wasn't added to dungeons because

• Dungeons are already rate-limited, so you can't just lootrun the same dungeon 10 times
• Dungeons are your own instance, so you play however you want in them, compared to POIs that players all have to share with each other
• The whole LR topic originated in POIs in the first place, so it would be unnecessary to add them to somewhere where it wasn't an issue yet

[lunar elk]

How about random chest placement so it will not be repetitive and had to know the pathing

[proven ore]

Mini-randomisation would be an amazing global addition, but I feel that's such a humongous task if it ever becomes a thing, it'd be after the game is "done" and the team starts to work on early game revamps over new content.

Stuff like randomly getting 10 traps in dungeon out of a pool of 25, or as you mention having chest locations within a room have several different spawning spots. Just small changes that make every run completely different

[shrewd cobalt]

would not solve anything

[proven ore]

It'd be way harder to lootrun if you had to adapt and change your pathing every single run, and not just do the same thing over and over and over with the only minor changes being if 3 mobs spawn instead of 1

[gloomy edge]

I do not think it would solve much

[manic cedar]

Sure, but I task you with finding all possible chest locations in forum

[hot ginkgo]

every week devs should place cchests in all dungeons

[hollow shale]

increasing the amount of potential chest spawn points would increase the amount of time a lootrun route would take to check all of them I guess

but it's also a lot of manual builder work you can't easily automate and I kinda doubt anyone really wants to burn that much time going thru every single dgn/strike

[manic cedar]

why are you bringing strikes into this

[hollow shale]

I’m not? Other people did

[hot ginkgo]

it woul feel terrible to have random chests because then some areas are empty

[hollow shale]

This is a solved problem in procedural generation

[shrewd cobalt]

and you could just

go to all areas 🤯

which is literally what happens when lootrunning

[hollow shale]

The simplest implementation is you set a bunch of potential spawnpoints in an area and then however many chests you want within that area

Eg, you pick a list of 10 spots in a room, generate 2 chests and have them randomly choose a spot, that room will always have 2 chests

[manic cedar]

This thread has seen some of the craziest takes it's quite wild

Random chests are quite cringe

[shrewd cobalt]

random chests would once again not solve anything about lootrunners

[manic cedar]

I already hate areas with low chest density because it makes me feel like im missing a chest somewhere

[gloomy edge]

Speed to chest -> look for next chest -> speed to next chest

Though it would be funny to hide chests behind spawners and then randomize that

[hollow shale]

“Look for chest” is technically an increase in time required

[shrewd cobalt]

and after a few weeks people would just memorise all the possible chest locations

[hollow shale]

Given currently you can just memorize the spots

Still dont think its worth the effort personally

[shrewd cobalt]

how does increased lootrun time make a difference

[manic cedar]

Conscript is awful for that reason

[hollow shale]

Idk why you’re asking me

[shrewd cobalt]

people could lootrun all dungeons 4 times over in a week

more time wouldnt solve anything

[manic cedar]

Some places are fine but then the whole left side is just..... there has to be chests somewhere

[hollow shale]

Weirdly hostile towards someone not supporting the suggestion

[manic cedar]

Not much hostility there

its entirely up to the person to decide

[shrewd cobalt]

because this thread is just suggestions that dont solve the "problem"

the problem most likely not even being caused by lootrunning

[hollow shale]

Ok?

What about it

[hollow shale]

I kinda want random traps

[wet nebula]

This is already done in shifting and ppl still lr that

[hot ginkgo]

thats true

[hollow shale]

Isnt lootrunning shifting a pain in the ass

[still fox]

I believe the current issue includes the following points:

1. Excessive currency

The main reason for this situation is that players are earning currency at a much faster rate by playing content than dev are creating new content for players to spend that currency on. Setting aside situations where Delve and Zenith mat have drastically dropped in price, this isn't necessarily a problem. It may even lower the barrier for new players to acquire equipment through the market for less popular content.

However, the problem of excessive currency arises with Zenith Charms. It is widely known that due to the rng aspect of the Charm system, the prices of some Charms have skyrocketed to a point where average players cannot participate. In Zenith, which is the newest and most challenging content, and with the demand for better charms for higher ascensions, players are feeling dissatisfied with the current situation.

2. Decreased overall difficulty of the death system
   While recent changes to the death system have made the penalties for new players dying less severe, encouraging them to continue playing, many experienced players now find the cost of death insignificant compared to before. A few anvils are not something to be concerned about, especially since the recent increase in anvil output is due to players being enthusiastic about playing Zenith (for some reason, players gain 100% experience in Zenith and do not lose experience upon death).

For some veteran players (yes, including myself), this adjustment to the death system, although it retains more players into the late game, diminishes the game's team aspects (old cyan tess, limbo) and reduces the game's skill requirements. It's been a year now, and half of the /lfg ruin teammates die before entering the city—what a joke. Moreover, it visibly encourages a playstyle leaning more towards reckless rushing.

[hollow shale]

Personally im of the opinion that anyone willing to tolerate lootrunning shifting deserves the loot, i cant even be bothered to do shifting at all

[hollow shale]

Wait cz gets the endless content treatment for xp?

[still fox]

i honestly don't think lr is the problem here, is more a small problem come from big problem, and the big problem is come from the direction of server shifted, from a ctmmmorpg server to a mmorpg server, where grind is more then ctm itself

u don't lose xp, u gain 100% xp, from what i experience it feel like it

[hollow shale]

That sounds pretty unbalanced

[still fox]

many of my friend who willing do cz have their second xp bar at least 500 lvl

[lunar elk]

How about lose half of xp

[still fox]

xp is not a problem

nothing here is problem tbh

too many currency isn't, unless u want buy good charm from market

no punish death isn't problem, it honest benefit player, lead more player willing play to end game, encourage crazy platstyle

[violet ether]

So
What is the problem this thread is trying to solve

[still fox]

but the way current server is is a problem for me, because i am not the audience for current server is, i perfer harder content that test player skill more then rng and how many money that have, i perfer meaningful death cause in tradtional ctm death should be shame, something player try to avoid

given from topic author write, lr

[wide sorrel]

ye noone mention it so we can keep abuse it

xd

[still fox]

which i don't think is really a problem that need to solve, is more a thing that current server supported/nature get into

[wide sorrel]

introduce strike/endless content xp penalty
cz : hahahahah nope.

[still fox]

instead solve prolbem, i more perfer add option

player can choose harder death system for better reward

[lunar elk]

Idea for shatter IV:
When you died with gears that is shattered III, shattered IV applied to every armor equipped. When you have shattered IV, you will have 100% debuff and will require you to go to your grave or reforge for a bit more than anvil cost (around 5 cxp/ccs/ar more than anvil cost) in forgery

[still fox]

cz charm system got remake so is less rng, ascension be more skill check rather then charm check

[hollow shale]

depends on who’s talking

I know some ppl just hate the idea of ppl lootrunning and think it shouldnt be a thing regardless of reasons

[still fox]

given how cheap anvil is, anything based on current death system only hurt new player rather then endgame player

[wide sorrel]

me look into patron list
chill gamer don't care anything
grinders
market player
I just want hope skins
ye for legal reason this is joke

[sleek badge]

there's not even a consensus on this lmao
Ive seen a different definition of lootrunning for each person
The general sentiment is around the idea of low engagement with the game churning up high reward in some fashion though

[still fox]

i perfer lr be a playstyle that really take effort rather then speed tank set go cut chest

[hollow shale]

And yeah lootrunning itself is kinda a spectrum of things ppl dont agree on

[shrewd cobalt]

lootrunning is not the reason cz mats are really low

[still fox]

is just nature that cz got run many many times

[shrewd cobalt]

and with the amount of people lootrunning dungeons (probably around 10) it also doesnt come close to the amount of raw money generated

[wide sorrel]

at least we success before at loot scale

[violet ether]

Yeah lol
I fail to find the purpose of this thread

[still fox]

so what i said is how fast ppl generated money by play content, where play is every playstyle

[hollow shale]

I imagine the thread exists to keep the discussion contained to one place, probably

[still fox]

at least i got this place to murmur

[shrewd cobalt]

it makes a lot of money for the first 2 days of playing it

it is not an unbalanced money making method like people say it is

[sleek badge]

I agree just because its impossible to solve the underlying issue (that challenge and reward are not necessarily linked to each other in most content) without absurd fundamental changes to the game

[hollow shale]

Im not sure thats even necessarily an issue

[lunar elk]

Tbh, what the purpose of this whole thread if all I see is problem but little to no solutions

[sleek badge]

it is the current topic which is why I am providing more than one line of thinking against it being something that should be action'd upon

[manic cedar]

It i sso hard to take people seriously when they have such ignorant takes

DD mats are low because people would rather use zenith mats to delve infuse;
Zenith mats are low because 30K ZENITH RUNS have been created since the release

"Party number" is the Xth run ever done

People like zenith, they play zenith, and they keep playing it because for once there is a reason to do beyond just enjoyment

And Monumenta is completely unprepared for this

[still fox]

at least zenith is content player like

[wet nebula]

not really, its my favourite dungeon to do though

[sleek badge]

shifting is a slow burn for me eventually loving it

too bad its fucked atm

[still fox]

shifting best

[lunar elk]

Shifting fix when

[wet nebula]

shifting is great because the random generation makes you use your brain a little to route it, but i dont think random chests would have the same effect in normal dungeons because the rest of the dungeon would still be the same

[trim rover]

Since I've seen multiple people say there's no solutions being provided, is there a reason why this might not be one?

[sleek badge]

was it necessary to reiterate on this when the original comment was rebutted already too?

[manic cedar]

i dont have a memory

also idk what ur talking about ecactly

[sleek badge]

valid

I need a nicer way to say what amounts to me directing your attention to how the original discourse went

[still fox]

sounds good, a edge case would be spectral spawn from silverfish during magenta challenge(most of them stuck inside somewhere wall)

[sleek badge]

buffing mobs doesn't really amount to much when mobs are just ignored anyways imo
even if you make them turbo-fast, elevation fucks with their AI enough to let you fly past them

[hollow shale]

Do you mean like a system where if you trigger too many spawners without killing enemies, enemies get buffed dmg and speed to stop you from tanking or outrunning them?

[wide sorrel]

and will it make death loop more common

[sleek badge]

what if we unabstracted anti-lr lol

so whatever the "criteria" is for getting chest loot

have that drop a key item (that's virtual) to signify how many chests you can open

this is tangential

[wide sorrel]

that's how current Poi anti-lr works , which is score system if I get what you mean

[trim rover]

the mobs can still just despawn

[sleek badge]

yeah hence why I said it was tangential

[wide sorrel]

(let me google the word brb)

[sleek badge]

oh sorry my bad

[violet ether]

That’s how trial spawners work

[sleek badge]

I mean that it isn't directly related to solving LR, but it is about LR in some way

I have noticed that ppl don't like how hard it is to gauge whether they can open a chest or not

[trim rover]

and yes, thats pretty much it

[hollow shale]

Mmm

[manic cedar]

me setting one foot into convent cathedral:

[hollow shale]

Its potentially something that could work but yeah, one of the issues thats would need to be fixed is spawning radius

The values are kinda all over the place rn

[trim rover]

even with a 95% threshold it'd make things a lot better

[hollow shale]

Some dgns you walk in and every spawner in the building and adjacent buildings trips

[still fox]

reverie:

tff:

[hollow shale]

Reverie was what i was thinking of in specific yeah

[still fox]

but i love buff last mob idea

[trim rover]

and if you cant kill a single mob out of the 20 that spawn in a spawner dense area ( after 8 seconds even ), I think you're doing something wrong

[still fox]

indeed

[trim rover]

it could also be very easily balanced by adjusting the time and threshold

[still fox]

also me, a 202 reaper in ex lb room that have 2 blaze spawner float in middle of room

:fuck fuck FUCK

i hate that room so much in every way

[rotund leaf]

floating spawners are just annoying

especially to classes without vertical mobility

[cedar trail]

good on paper but really you just run blizzard/any braindead aoe skill and not much happens to you

its not a bad idea tho u could probably just advocate for reworks to the skills and implement it idk

[cedar trail]

close the thread imo

[trim rover]

In that case you're not lootrunning since your killing mobs

And even then, they still have to invest some of their stats in to magic damage to be able to kill mobs

[wet nebula]

people love talking about lootrunning i guess

this is the most active feedback thread in a year

[wide sorrel]

Maybe because there isn’t any content and we all know that a lot of discussed thing isn’t that impactful to actual game but rather maybe some dev random thought that approved by tm

[lavish sonnet]

In fact ss got killed when they added anti-lr

[lavish sonnet]

In reality it doesnt change anything for the fact that lootrunners are gonna create a lootrun with the position of every random chest
And then start counting, when they have reached the max amount of chests, they are just gonna restart

[lavish sonnet]

Nothing because nothing will be implemented, and nerfing lootrunning is just gonna harm other people, and lootrunners are still gonna lootrun, just 5% slower

[lavish sonnet]

And poi anti-lr is so good that people were able to grind 40+har/h (in the past i would bet even more since ig mats and rares were worth more)

[smoky remnant]

(tldr it's shit)

[lavish sonnet]

If we really want to fix the economy, idk that's a great question, maybe add anti-lr in dungeons?
And then uh... Good luck

Or do a chaotic neutral choose and remove anti-lr from every content so that people are gonna complain even more

[hollow shale]

That wont fix the economy

[lavish sonnet]

"And then uh... Good luck" I know

[wet nebula]

agreed

[hollow shale]

The economy issue and lootrunning are pretty much two separate issues at this point

Trying to lump the two together means youve definitely ignored most of the thread

[wet nebula]

not sure how people are still saying anti lr in dungeons will fix the economy

[hollow shale]

Some people want anti-lootrun measures purely because they dont like lootrunning existing and the economy is just a reason being used to justify putting work in to nerf it

Trying to argue about the economy when discussing anti-lr measures is missing the point, the point being they dont like lootrun being a thing and want it to be punished harder to make it less viable

Chest randomization was brought up at one point because it means having to spend extra time looking around and checking hidden away corners of dungeons until you find all the chests in a room

The whole point is to waste more of the lootrunners time, which it technically does do, but it also wastes a ton of whoever would have to implement it’s time so good luck ever finding someone willing to implement it across every dungeon

[violet ether]

fair
there is no problem to be solve cuz the solve part is not gonna be real
but I don't think a problem is even presented that everyone agreed upon

the only complaint of lr I have is that people can lr the content and left non-lrers feeling useless
that's all

[hollow shale]

For clarification/context, one of the reasons anti-lootrun for pois was later implemented in r1 despite not originally being there when it was added to r2/3 is because people were lootrunning all of oceangate and azacor’s grove on all 3 overworld shards nonstop, this lead to a lot of complaints and newbies modhelping to ask if the poi was bugged. This reasoning can't be used to argue for dungeon lootrunning since dungeons are instanced.

However, they then later added lootrun protection to story strike, which is instanced, for presumably it being too profitable. It makes “add more anti-lootrun to nerf its profit rate” an easier argument to make since an existing precedent exists that can be pointed at.

^I wasn’t around for anti-lootrun being added to r2/3 so I can’t comment on that

[trim rover]

I don't think I've seen anyone argue nerfing lootrunning would fix market but more so just affect it in a positive way.

[hollow shale]

It's not necessarily specific to this thread, but I do sometimes see anti-lootrunners try to blame everything on lootrunning. I also see people try to use it as a strawman when arguing against anti-lootrun too, though.

[rotund leaf]

ngl for me as a relatively new player the low prices of mats benefit me

though im always low on raw currency

[lavish sonnet]

Tbf they should revert ss anti-lr
Because ss Just made 20hxp/h, that compared to what we have now is nothing

[still fox]

and we can finally have good overworld rare supply

[lavish sonnet]

I mean, not sure if people are gonna lootrun it
At the time only 1/2 people lootrunned ss

And rn only 1 person is lootrunning r3 poi even if it makes way more money then ss

[lavish sonnet]

nvm now there are a total of 0 people doing r3 poi lr

[lusty wharf]

the economys broken anyways theres no fixing it

[shrewd cobalt]

hsb mindset

[sour halo]

the economy's broken because uhhh

uhhhh

uh

[subtle cypress]

(idk)

people think that cz players have too much money but like if the cz players dedicated as much time they did to cz by like doing pois frequently and running weekly content theyd have close to the same amount (i came up with the idea people think that cz players have too muhc money myself there is no backed up evidence)

[smoky remnant]

(they do)

[violet ether]

idk man
charm prices feels like another level compared to normal stuff like rares and epics

[manic cedar]

(nothing else to spend money on)

[lucid tapir]

how much does it cost to run zenith

[wide sorrel]

48ar per person for rigged

12ar per for normal

[lucid tapir]

rigged?

[proven ore]

You’ll understand when you get to DD, you have a chance of not rolling your desired tree on a normal key, and a rigged key makes it guaranteed tldr

[lucid tapir]

ohhhh okay

i am surprised there is no like

price increase with ascension, since you can get better rewards.. or no?

[still fox]

no

[sleek badge]

awfully convenient to make a hypothesis and treat it as a conclusion

[subtle cypress]

jnm ujh,mmm yeah

[subtle cypress]

cosmetic epics and infusions r kinda also really high up there

maybe not as much as charms but still pretty high

[manic cedar]

not every charm is 1.1k

[violet ether]

Those don’t really affect market that much though
Most of the epics that people will trade are under or around 1hh
To be clear I don’t know charm market that well, just saying my pov

[manic cedar]

what do you mean affect market

[subtle cypress]

the money spent on infusions and epics r kinda just deleted where charm just moves money around

i get what you mean it makes a lot of sense actually

[violet ether]

Like cosmetic items
People don’t just buy the item from market they buy them from npc

[manic cedar]

which removes currencies from the game

what is the point being made here

other than an observation

[broken siren]

Godly charms yea are worth more but the currency does not go away it just goes into someone else’s pockets to spend on another charm

[lusty wharf]

this thread is basically too much money made, nowhere to spend tooeasy money

[grand sequoia]

Rich ppl problems