Passive Abilities: The Good and the Bad

[winter helm]

This thread is focused on passive abilities and should be kept to those. It is about what I believe makes a good passive and what makes a bad one, with a scope on Warrior's base passives.

You might have heard something along the lines of "Warrior is the most vanilla class" before. This is largely due to the fact that warrior relies heavily on passive abilities, more than any other class. For this thread, we're going to divide passives up into conditional passives and constant passives. Conditional passives require something to be done or for a condition to be met in order to trigger, for example Counter Strike, Skirmisher, Spellshock and Bezoar. Constant passives are permanent buffs and are always applied, for example Brute Force, Weapon Mastery, Toughness, Sharpshooter to an extent and Swiftness. I will be focusing on warrior's passives for this thread, but my points can be applied to any other class as well.

Warrior's base class has 5 passives; Frenzy and Counter Strike, which are conditional, and BF, WM and Toughness, which are constant. I believe that Frenzy and Counter Strike are significantly more interesting and well designed than the other 3. I have 2 reasons for this:

1. They are conditional - the conditional aspect in a passive creates variety to the gameplay and makes the player notice and think about them when prevalent in combat.
2. The level 2 upgrades to these abilities add something new. Frenzy gets some speed which doesn't sound like much, but speed is always appreciated and it can impact the clearing speed. Counter Strike however gets added taunt interaction. This is a wonderful example of what a level 2 upgrade should do for a passive: adding interaction with other skills. This is absolutely the perfect recipe for a good passive ability. Counter Strike level 2 is great upgrade for players using Shield Bash and Challenge. The added skill interaction makes a class more connected and more flexible, in the sense that there are more playstyles to be unlocked based on skill selection.
   BF, WM and Toughness unfortunately fail in this department. Their level 2 uprades are simply more damage or more health, exactly what level 1 does. I also want to bring up Defensive Line here, as the level 2 upgrade is nothing more than an increase in resistance from 20% to 30%. Would love to see an additional feature to this upgrade.

I will say that Toughness gets a degree of approval from me due to its uniqueness with ailment damage reduction, but BF and WM exist solely to bring warrior's hits up to damage standards. These 2 abilities are necessary for the class to play well, there is no warrior that plays without BF and/or WM. This is another reason for why warrior has its vanilla feel - the passives are so demanding that fewer skill points are left to be distributed into other skills.

Is the vanilla feel inherently bad? No, a simple and easy to understand class that builds on vanilla gameplay is good. It's a great class for players starting out. However, when the game progresses in character, the class struggles to follow until Region 2. Both of warrior's specs have 3 active abilities - this is where the class really gets interesting, leaving the base class in Region 1 to be in a way 'missing out' on large parts of the class' design. I suspect that a reason the class is not generally viewed this way is because of how strong it is in R1 due to the flat numbers in WM and BF. These also greatly impact the early game. With the suggested skills from labs, attacks with an axe deal +4 plus 5% damage on critical hits along with aoe, which is a lot at level 2. The raw strength is a great attractor for many players. I believe cutting down on the raw stat buffs from the constant passives in favor of something else will help the class a lot. I've been thinking of an idea which is to simplify and weaken Weapon Mastery and turn it into warrior's passive, but that of course implies that a new ability must be added. RECKLESS SWING WOOO!!

As a quick summary, I would love to see some of the mentioned passive abilities and perhaps more be revisited in order to become more interesting and interacting with other skills in their classes, something that can bring new stuff to the table. This may sound like a big ol' unactionable request, but given that they are passives, I'm sure we can figure some things out. It's important to note that I'm not asking for full skill reworks! I'm simply hoping to see these passives expanded on.

[half wigeon]

theres also the fact the class passive is uh.....yeah

[humble spruce]

you cooked, I wholeheartedly agree. I think it'd be really fun if we can come up with something for the boring passives

[winter helm]

I did write up a few ideas but intentionally cut those out of the post. Spy's effective feedback tips were haunting me

[humble spruce]

ah lol

hm, doesn't Toughness 2 give the player resistance to Wither and Poison?

[winter helm]

both levels do, level 2 being level 1 doubled

[humble spruce]

ohh

[winter helm]

I partially forgive it for this but I still can't deny that level 2 doesn't add anything new

[half wigeon]

a lot of warriors skills are just doubling at level 2

or some type of increasing

[upbeat tartan]

WM issue follows into R3 where it is a no brainer to take WM U as it gives non-conditional 7.5% final damage which you need. (And the extra buffs but)
Toughness also decreases drowning damage.

[remote cedar]

warrior should get ewrath and mini knight summons

[lethal dagger]

Warrior should get to vomit a spray of axes/swords

[remote cedar]

sword rain finisher but constantly

and it's a passive.

[half wigeon]

like the berserker class in hsb dungeons?

[humble spruce]

for toughness I think it'd be interesting to play around mob aggro which will encourage poise warrior

[zealous hare]

Toughness conditional idea: If a mob is agro'd on you, you additionally gain 10/15% damage reduction against that mob

[humble spruce]

that's nice and simple yea

(It's counter strike u)

[tidal ibex]

Isn’t that free dr solo

[winter helm]

What's wrong with it being the same as cs u? we already have plenty of skills doubling stats.

[half wigeon]

thats also just rampage?

[upbeat tartan]

No one has said it was wrong. Just saying that is literally cs u.

[half wigeon]

(god please make it)

[humble spruce]

this might sound cracked but, what if toughness gives you a slightly longer iframe?

[remote cedar]

Ehhhh riposte does that kinda

With axe

[humble spruce]

really?

[fickle bay]

BF doesnt feel like a passive passive

[fickle bay]

it adds aoe to axes

[winter helm]

passive passive or not, warrior does not function without it

[fickle bay]

yeah

[tidal ibex]

BF counts imo because melee is what you’d be doing mainly
If you somehow want to play without it you will still be melee-ing anyway

[remote cedar]

Stuns stuff
So... Kiiinda

[fickle bay]

bf underwater

[remote cedar]

Y'know
On a twelve second cooldown

[tidal ibex]

May as well not count it at this point

[humble spruce]

I call BF an "Active Passive", a passive that triggers when you do a certain action, kinda like conditional passive

[nimble pollen]

This is a really nice read, I do agree that the conditional passives are really respectable and enhances the experience subconciously (Frenzy rewards pacing really well and the speed boost is really helpful and not an obligatory choice. Counterstrike encourages exchanging blows either by blocking or taking hits straight up - and boy giving back the exchanged blow feels really nice)

Though I feel rather conflicted about BF, WM and Toughness. I cannot respect toughness for being just an extra health boost and while yes it is optional, it's part of warrior's survivability and cannot be placed a blind eye unless you're seriously downbad for pts (Which is okay for new warriors, but not delving warriors). Weapon mastery is just lame. They're both simple stat boost but are neccessary to contribute to warrior's tomfoolery (God knows what to do with it)

Brute Force... should honestly be the class passive. Brute Force 1 is the absolute most nothing burger ever (it's flat 2 dmg that's it) but the knockback is mandatory for earlygame spacing. Brute Force 2 then becomes mandatory for the 10% damage because it additional damage that goes a long way. It should at this point be part of warrior passive that it enhances the crit ability instead of the chump 2 kbr

[fickle bay]

2kbr could just go into thoughness

[winter helm]

Fully agree that bonus damage should come from the class passive rather than only passive abilities

[upbeat tartan]

BF 2 is almost required also due to the AOE. Otherwise against mobs like dreadlings you are in for some pain. At least for axe users.

[humble spruce]

agree

[winter helm]

the 2kbr could go on defensive line or something, I do think that would be fitting

[nimble pollen]

Yeah, brute force is mandatory there's no other way of putting it - you NEED it to function otherwise its just shooting yourself on the foot

at this point its just an integral part of warrior

[solemn talon]

Honestly it's kind of lame when abilities only have a % scaling part at level 2

It just makes them required to be at level 2 going further into any place that isn't region 1

[nimble pollen]

IM TIRED OF THIS GRANDPA !!!

[winter helm]

I have been thinking that brute force/weapon mastery should've been fully %s

they are too strong a combo for early r1

[tidal ibex]

It do be feeling like warrior is THE class for early r1

[fickle bay]

Spiritspark+wp2 oneshots most things non-crit

[humble spruce]

It is also the first class I picked

[fickle bay]

same

[tawdry fiber]

cleric better 🤓

[humble spruce]

which one are you:
so tanky you don't die
so much healing you don't die

(but fr Cleric's self sustain is nuts)

[fickle bay]

so much damage you don't die

[humble spruce]

TRUE

Imo Cleric has the most interesting melee playstyle

[tidal ibex]

Cleric design do handle the mechanic very well
Everything is centered around one debuff which is undead-ness
Instead of like A give B and C gives D

[remote cedar]

And you become undead! And you become undead!

[half wigeon]

this is useless for a good chunk of damage types!

[remote cedar]

well that's tOO DAMN BAD

[humble spruce]

the day Deadmark was added was the day Cleric was saved

that's what I call it at least

or Divine Mark

Deadmark sounds too much like Denmark

[half wigeon]

I sentence you to Denmark

[humble spruce]

nooooo

[remote cedar]

🇩🇰

[half wigeon]

like, the further we go into r3, the more we encounter default mobs with magic, pull abilities, and high punch arrows, all of which are unaffected by kbr

[nimble pollen]

I don't know about other passives (Aside from alch, it only has it passive which allows it to function ) but warrior passive becomes meaningless the further you progress
Yes you can technically hit the 10kbr easier now but a lot of abilities and especially region 3 mobs will disrespect your kbr

[winter helm]

isn't there also the fact that kbr just doesn't want to function mid air

[half wigeon]

magic itself just disregards kbr

[humble spruce]

KBR is just inconsistent in general

[remote cedar]

toughness feels like warrior's actual passive ngl

[half wigeon]

warrior just in general really feels the most vanilla class even in r3

[humble spruce]

true it should have been a class passive

[winter helm]

toughness class passive will not help fix bf and wm I think

[remote cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cute-happy-jumping-gif-26555219

the warrior in question:

[sweet orchid]

What’s warrior class passive again

[remote cedar]

20% kbr

[half wigeon]

20% KBR

thats it

[winter helm]

which barely functions mind you

[solemn talon]

Just a simple stat increase as a passive? Surely that seems too simple to put on a class when passives help define what the class is about

[winter helm]

better than alch passive though

[solemn talon]

Surely

[half wigeon]

Surely

[winter helm]

Surely

[humble spruce]

Surely

[humble spruce]

crying and sobbing rn

[nimble pollen]

LMFAO

[solemn talon]

Alch passive is fine

[remote cedar]

we should be able to drink our alchemist potions

family guy death pose

[humble spruce]

Alch's passive is just the class function 😭😭

[winter helm]

alch passive is literally just “you are allowed to use a weapon”

[nimble pollen]

Side tangent why does mage also gets a passive that makes the class functional but also a side gimmick which makes it fun to use

[half wigeon]

alch and warrior passive needs to get reworkded

[solemn talon]

Considering it defines your entire main form of attack (which is also a spammable AoE that also knocks mobs back a surprising amount)

[remote cedar]

so the passive is "you can use this branch of weapons"

[tidal ibex]

Imo alch doesn’t really need a passive
The play style is just unique enough

[solemn talon]

Mage passive is still just channeling

It only mentions spell power so that new players know that spell power only works for mage

[humble spruce]

Mage has a passive?!

[half wigeon]

yeah

[remote cedar]

(it's melee mage)

[winter helm]

20% melee dmg after casting a spell

for 1 hit

[remote cedar]

which is also hilariously bad

[humble spruce]

lmfao

[half wigeon]

spell power = magic damage, and 20% more melee damage (who uses this specifically)

[winter helm]

meleemage is kinda awesome

[humble spruce]

yeah these passives need a rework

[remote cedar]

we need to get a choice of three passives per class 🙏

[solemn talon]

🥴

[half wigeon]

that would genuinely be nice

but probably too much

what did you mean by that frozen earth

[humble spruce]

THEN WE HAVE SHAMAN, THE SPECIAL CHILD

[nimble pollen]

Must... not... harrass... special child...

[solemn talon]

It would be a shame if this thread went off the rails

[half wigeon]

always give your fights your all

[remote cedar]

shaman, with its two passives which are actually pretty decent

[remote cedar]

passives are still passives even though they're not abilities

[winter helm]

class passives are fine to talk about let's just not head into melee scout territory

[half wigeon]

a bit back on topic, warrior is the only class where I can have 1 singular ability on cooldown

[remote cedar]

incorrect, just don't use your skill points

[half wigeon]

and that is riposte

[spring warren]

umm umm agility

on scout

the skill

u have swift cuts and then a dupe of it except u just get the dmg straight up

[winter helm]

I worry that if we start going for all the passive abilities across multiple classes we exit reasonable scope zone

[remote cedar]

alr fine warrior for now
please reword the class passive

[lusty minnow]

i love brute force having diminishing returns for piddly damage and massive SP and CP costs 😄 😄 😄

[remote cedar]

brute force isn't bad

[nimble pollen]

Final comment is that yeah i do hope warrior gets some active abilities that way it'll be more interesting in region one and who knows, maybe it'll directly help guardian for what it is (Sorry sisters), whereas berserker would instead embrace their new spec actives

[solemn talon]

I would keep in mind the difference between "not strong" and "needs to be reworked"

[lusty minnow]

oh and actively knocking back the enemy i'm trying to hit

it's great

[half wigeon]

the only time where I really noticed warriors class passive was in r1, and less so in r2

[cinder echo]

opinions on windbomb 2 doing nothing but buffing stormblessed further

[nimble pollen]

I only notice the legendary Formidable (passive): 2 kbr in region 2 solely because of entcrusher and frost giiant helmet (6+2*+2*)

[lusty minnow]

it takes 9 charm power, 2 SP, 1 EP, knocking back enemies that im trying to hit, removal of free GB stacks and loss of AoE for...

18 and 14 dmg on my 1st and 2nd BF waves

❤️

also, Brute Force or Weapon Mastery really should be Warrior's passive

[humble spruce]

or Toughness

[lusty minnow]

the KBR is... definitely a passive of all time

[winter helm]

I'm personally for weapon mastery being the passive

brute force has level 2 potential and so does toughness

[lusty minnow]

brute force has potential (of being a massive resource sink)

(see above)

[nimble pollen]

I want to say Brute Force solely for how mandatory it is for warrior but that kind of passive seems extreme compared to many other passive which are just number buffs

(And, truthfully, I can't think of a level 2 potential that doesnt make it a must have)

[lusty minnow]

warriors passive was slightly more respectable when KBR was a % resistance and not just a chance to not take any at all

[winter helm]

you must not have heard about the recent change in meta

thorns guardian is here

[cinder echo]

kbr is a chance ????

wow that is dog shit

[winter helm]

but yeah brute force as passive feels too strong

it's not like warrior isn't allowed to have any resource sink at all

[lusty minnow]

lol?

[humble spruce]

Thorns can do real damage?

[lusty minnow]

(the other problem is BF charms are far too expensive for their benefit but i'll open that can of worms another time)

[winter helm]

I have no idea how good it is

[humble spruce]

I always see thorns damage as just flavor, doesn't really add anything

[winter helm]

also I want to mention that weapon mastery charms literally do not exist

[lusty minnow]

they're coming in the next update!!! trust me!!!!

[humble spruce]

lmfaoo

[cinder echo]

paladin

[humble spruce]

Cleric is an exception!

[cinder echo]

at dumpling sushi

[nimble pollen]

Lmfao you got a point, weapon mastery could be a class passive

[lusty minnow]

i would be fine with it as a passive

you could give it bers/guard interaction too

so that way you have 4 different effects

axe/sword, on bers, axe/sword, on guardian

[winter helm]

warlock skill description type beat

I imagine wm as a passive like

10% damage bonus on axe and sword, sword gains 5% dr and axe gains another 5% damage or something

flat damage should be gone at least

[lusty minnow]

personally im a big fan of my axe speed from WM U tbh

[thick basin]

"not class-defining passive" when dethroner moment

[lusty minnow]

SO TRUE

[thick basin]

kbr is utterly placebo compared

[humble spruce]

Dethroner good passive with a question mark

[lusty minnow]

what

[nimble pollen]

Exclamation mark

[lusty minnow]

it is literally 30% dmg vs elites

[humble spruce]

since as rogue you one shot everything

OH IT WAS 30%

nvm, good passive with exclamation mark

[thick basin]

it used to be more I think

[lusty minnow]

fucking rediculous passive tbh

meanwhile, warrior

[winter helm]

nope you will use frenzy 2

[lusty minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/christmas-rage-throwing-christmas-tree-pissed-off-gif-15745733

[humble spruce]

I mean it's pretty much Rogue's thing

[winter helm]

you'll have the points to do so when wm is gone 👍

[thick basin]

as it should be warrior's thing to kill stuff without wasting points on "able to kill things"

[lusty minnow]

i literally do not run frenzy

wrench has enough atk speed to not do so

[thick basin]

honestly, bf as passive?

[nimble pollen]

Yeah but now I get cool theoretical chroma-blade ability which me really likes over 20% speed

[humble spruce]

fuck it, just put every warrior passive as a class passive, that'll do the trick

[thick basin]

just swap kbr as the new skill 😁

if people still want kbr they can take it

[lusty minnow]

😨

[thick basin]

otherwise, they can spread the points around the 7 other skills (and oops free 2 points for warrior)

[winter helm]

reckless swing. reckless swing. reckless swing

[nimble pollen]

Level 1: Gain 2 kbr
Level 2: Pressing the drop key while not sn-

[humble spruce]

I miss that ability

[thick basin]

kbr can be the smoke screen of warrior

[nimble pollen]

Unironically if we could somehow bring back reckless swing but as a less abusable active

I would probably transcend to a new mortal coil and leave my carcass behind

[winter helm]

kbr should just go on defensive line

warrior doesn't have much going for it in terms of actives other than shield bash

riposte is nice

[lusty minnow]

ill write some passive and maybe a replacement active for WM after i kill FtW wall of flesh hold on

[remote cedar]

Reckless Swing Level 1: Shift and swap hands to recklessly swing forwards at 1.3 blocks per second, gaining full knockback resistance until landing. Vertical movement speed is capped at 0.3 blocks per second upwards. Colliding with enemies while swinging forward deals 20 damage and 5 extra damage. When you land without dealing damage, deal 20 damage to the nearest mob within 3 blocks. Additionally, your swing will knock back all mobs within 3.0 blocks.

[lusty minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/fade-away-oooooooooooo-aga-emoji-crumble-gif-20008708

[winter helm]

that ain't right…

[humble spruce]

I miss a lot of the removed abilities tbh

[remote cedar]

add side abilities to classes for r4, you get to alternate between them

[humble spruce]

Purple Haze, Nightmarish Alchemy, that one mage beam, power injector

[winter helm]

okay but to be real here
I don't think we're getting them back

you don't just remove an ability only to turn back around and readd it later

[humble spruce]

that's the sad part

[thick basin]

r1 warr probably stays as a passive vanilla class, but I still think one of the "most important passives" should become the intrinsic class passive instead of kbr

[humble spruce]

I will forever mourn for nightmarish alchemy and purple haze, it was fun while it lasted 😭

[tidal ibex]

Removed ability is to be missed
Bringing back may not go the long way

[humble spruce]

mhm

[remote cedar]

Brutal Alchemy Sidegrade: Purple haze
tbh I forgot what it does

[winter helm]

it's kind of a “we removed it for a reason” case

[humble spruce]

Panacea but it's full offense

[remote cedar]

was it on apoth

[humble spruce]

it was on Harb

[remote cedar]

oh :(

wait, pre-change panacea?

[humble spruce]

which one

[remote cedar]

before panacea became dot or after

[winter helm]

what do you guys think about brute force level 2 boosting its effect/damage/something if the crit was landed after falling 3 or more blocks? Could play well into bers as well as encourage strategical use of recoil and terrain climbing

[humble spruce]

very gimmicky

[nimble pollen]

it scuffs guardian too hard

[remote cedar]

no since that's basically screwing over r1

[tidal ibex]

Jump boost warrior

[winter helm]

idk I kinda imagine it being pretty easy to do even in r1

[humble spruce]

It was a dot I think? cannot exactly remember neither but I know the catch is that mobs that are infected with haze contracts the effect to nearby mobs when they die

[winter helm]

but such is the nature of opinions

[nimble pollen]

Without recoil, it'll be awkward trying to block up and drop kick the mob - and even if you pull it off, you don't really have any way to negate fall dmg

[tidal ibex]

It is interesting but idk how practical it is
Can be just “buy hrimnir before playing warrior”

[remote cedar]

pillars up three blocks every time you encounter a mob

[winter helm]

something to boost the impact would be fun

[remote cedar]

agreed

[winter helm]

warrior has very consistent dps

[nimble pollen]

That yes i agree

[winter helm]

almost too consistent

[remote cedar]

I mean it should be consistent dps it's the "I hit stuff." class

it's a really easy class to get into because it's like vanilla

hit stuff, great! crit stuff, get bonuses!

[tidal ibex]

Yeah it should be consistent I think
Although disclaimer I’m not a warrior player

[nimble pollen]

Me caveman. ME big club. Me thwack. Life GOod.

[thick basin]

thatd genuinely be funny if it made jb worth running on warr

[winter helm]

I guess I mean conditional rather than inconsistent

[tidal ibex]

It’d need to be at least twice as effective because you could just melee twice in all that time setting up

[winter helm]

smells like balance hell I suppose

[thick basin]

don't you also fall faster if you head hit with more jb?

[nimble pollen]

Not even balance hell, just how do we make brute force a more engaging ability 🤔

[thick basin]

imagine normal crit speed with 2.5x damage

[remote cedar]

I don't think so I think it just zeroes out your fall speed and you fall normally yeah?

[sterile garnet]

AYYYYY this is 🔥

[sterile garnet]

Okay I have some ideas, idk how powerful this would be but I like thinking about stuff like this :D This is gonna be very broken and not viable at all.
Weapon Mastery:
Level 1: You gain 10% damage resistance while holding a sword. Additionally, your axe damage is increased by +2 plus 5% of final damage done.
Level 2: Every time you hit an enemy gain a stack of Power. Getting 10 stacks of Power automatically uses it, causing a random ability to lose 1s of its cooldown. If you use a different type of weapon, you get 2 stacks instead of 1. (So if you start attacking with a sword, and then change the weapon to an axe, then change back to a sword, you have 5 stacks instead of 3.)

Brute Force:
Level 1: Attacking an enemy with a critical attack passively deals 2 more damage to the mob and 1 damage to all enemies in a 2 block radius around it, and knocks all non-boss enemies away from you.
Level 2: Killing a stunned enemy gives you 3 stacks of Power. Getting 10 stacks of Power automatically uses it, causing a random ability to lose 1s of its cooldown. Upon killing a stunned enemy, enemies in a 2 block radius are knocked away from you and are dealt 1 damage.

Defensive Line:
Level 1: When you block while sneaking, you and your allies in an 8 block radius gain 20% Resistance for 10 seconds. Upon activating this skill, mobs in a 3 block radius of you and your allies are knocked back.
Level 2: Get 2 stacks of Power per ally you gave resistance to. The effect of resistance is increased by +(double of the amount of the stacks of Power)%. Increase the maximum stack of Power by 5.

Toughness:
Level 1: Gain +15% max health and damage from Poison, Wither, and Drowning is reduced by 30%.
Level 2: The amount of seconds that Power decreases off an ability is increased by the amount of max health you have.

I was really bored, time to actually play monu

[sweet orchid]

Rampage from bers already has the dmg->stack buff thing smh

[winter helm]

Multiple skills interacting with the same type of stack has not been done before and I'm not sure how well it'll work

[tidal ibex]

If I were to make something I would slap a “combo” sort of passive
So you strike like current BF, and the next you do a swing damaging a cone of mobs, and then you deal big damage
Or sth
It’s passive so you like alternate among attacks

[winter helm]

I think that's too close to counter strike maybe

could brute force get sweeping attack interaction perhaps?

[sterile garnet]

I think it would be the best way to add something to this class. Since that would reduce complexity of the class and having it be an automatic usage would also help

[sterile garnet]

The concept is big enough for more than one ability to have something like thag

[winter helm]

I did actually just notice that Colossal Brute makes every third crit have an additional sound effect, perhaps you could play into that

Something like critically striking a mob 3 times in a row without getting hit by it deals additional damage and knockback, maybe increases the radius or some other cool effect

Alternatively there could be a different interaction with Brute Force if the crit is landed while sprinting

[sterile garnet]

That would be cool but you get hit a lot as a new player and well playing melee

[winter helm]

something to make me think about how I choose to land the crit(s) would make it a much more fun ability

[sterile garnet]

Yep

[winter helm]

you can use shield bash, riposte and defensive line (u) to help with it I think

[lusty minnow]

"critically striking a mob 3 times in a row without getting hit"

on Stamina: The Class

[winter helm]

Well maybe you should not select it then

there should of course be reason to not put skill points into something

also you can just block with a shield I guess

[lusty minnow]

shield stamina no longer works

https://tenor.com/view/christmas-rage-throwing-christmas-tree-pissed-off-gif-15745733

[winter helm]

wasn't meant as a way to get stamina

[sterile garnet]

Also

Doesnt mage and scout have the same isdur

Issue

[sweet orchid]

Issue of what

Stamina?

[sterile garnet]

Abiliteis being bad

[sweet orchid]

No?

Or idk

I play elementalist mage and it seems find

[winter helm]

Mage's only passive ability is spellshock which is conditional and level 2 adds speed, scout does have some constant passives though and Agility for example doesn't add anything new at level 2

mage is completely fine imo

[half wigeon]

ngl, I think a good change would be to spread the effects of your axe to enemies hit by brute force

[winter helm]

Inferno warrior

[fickle bay]

get some slow falling and you are basically an inferno dragon

https://tenor.com/view/jamie-clash-gif-22919857

[tough rock]

I love situational conditions (namely Specialist Swords) so how about these neat ideas for WM and Brute Force?

Weapon Mastery 2: Increase axe damage by +3 plus 7.5% of final damage done. If the enemy is holding an axe, this effect is doubled. Increase sword damage by +1 plus 5% of final damage done and gain 15% Resistance when holding a sword. If an enemy is holding a sword, you take an additional 10% less damage while holding a sword.

(Makes people think more on switching from using a sword or axe depending on the enemy)

Brute Force 2: Damage is increased to 10% of the attack's damage plus 2. The enemy hit by the critical attack will gain Staggered for 4 seconds. Each block of Knockback they receive when Staggered makes them take an additional 1 Melee Damage.

(Compliments the Knockback component of Brute Force and makes Knockback Swords or Punch Bows have some extra use! :D)

Also,

Toughness 2: Gain +20% max health and damage from Poison, Wither, and Drowning is reduced by 40%. For every 4 HP above 20HP you have, passively heal for 5% more.

(So that Healthstack can actually be sustainable and not suck with both slower healing and lower DR Armor :v)

DR = Damage Reduction

[fickle bay]

BF idea sounds cool

[winter helm]

strategically switching between axe and sword would be cool but I'm not sure if I like that it's just the same stats boosted

[cinder echo]

toughness passive when roots of life sustenance 3

[fickle bay]

WP like that feels like duelist (not the enchantment) thingy, i think it fits rogue thematically more than warrior

[tough rock]

I was thinking of a "clash" system where you mitigate a single hit if you hold the same weapon as them, but that would be Defensive Line (u) :v

[fickle bay]

ripost when

[mild stag]

I think Brute force could do with aeroblast treatment where it does damage when the mob hits a wall, so cool

[winter helm]

That could be really fun

Maybe sprint critting would deal additional knockback and add wall damage

Extra damage is good, the extra knockback can also be bad

[mild stag]

It could synergize well with enhancement in R3 when it gains a second knockback

[winter helm]

Oh absolutely
Brute force is a little infamous for its large knockback, so I think adding a separation in how much knockback it does (not sprinting vs sprinting) would be some great qol for it

[remote cedar]

Shifting when brute force triggers should stop the knockback from triggering

You sacrifice mobility for being able to dps

[half wigeon]

xeabia try not to cook a 5* meal challenge (impossible)

[lusty minnow]

not a big fan of more hotbar space but it sounds cool

[frozen oar]

The only opinion I'm really 100% certain of is that i dislike Brute Force and Weapon Mastery's level 1 not giving any scaling damage bonus (exclusively for swords in weapon mastery's case??). The non-scaling flat damage feels strange and I feel like they should at least scale your damage at any level with either weapon. The 2 KBR class passive isn't really impressive, but saying it "barely functions" is disingenuous.
I feel like for the most part Warrior skills are in a pretty good place, and there's a lot of variety with how you choose them, which is more than what you can say for some other classes. I personally don't find something being "passive" inherently boring as long as they have a noticeable impact on how something plays by giving the player more capabilities and options in gameplay, which I'd say Warrior does pretty well right now (at least in R3).
When it comes to R1/R2, I can't really be sure how it is there anymore since I haven't really bothered playing either region in a very long time. I sort of get the vibe that Warrior isn't very exceptional in either region these days and doesn't really excel at any particular thing, but that could just be my R3 bias giving me a fully fleshed out and interesting class there.
I don't think I'm against the idea of reworking something like Weapon Mastery to be more interesting by turning it into an active ability, but I also feel like it's pretty inoffensive as it is right now, and not inherently problematic.

[flat flicker]

Anyone can link me messages to top

[rare coral]

#1210405584780927026 message

[flat flicker]

Ty

Ty

[nimble pollen]

Since most of your damage stems from crit, its clear that there arent any other options for damage output (Bers alleviates this issue a bit). The damage passive (bf and wm) becomes a necessary evil because otherwise you start losing functionality, hence the mediocrity of region 1 and 2 (that and r3 brainrot). It's why the feedback was made because certainly theres a way to compromise a bit of the extra numbers for better ability engagement (that alongside making the base warrior kit a little more interesting). Though I do agree that warrior isnt problematic at all and shouldnt be worried for too much, except for guardian maybe idk never got a firm opinion on it

As for the passive... in the MOST MEANIE WAY POSSIBLE, if it was bugged then no one would notice!!! (That and berserker glorious battle gives full kbr midair so the passive becomes redundant)
and spells not respecting kbr 🫠

[frozen oar]

i mean personally on guardian i don't even spec into damage scaling from weapon mastery at all (because level 1 does nothing for swords) so to call it a "necessary evil" feels a little bit much, even if i am hard-pressed to keep brute force 2

if the level 1 of either skill scaled damage it'd help build flexibility a bit, and the fact they don't is something i stated i wasn't a fan of

i don't think warrior in r1 or r2 would suddenly jump to relevancy if it had an extra 4 skill points to give myself more "functionality". Warrior doesn't really offer anything useful or relevant in other regions compared to other classes no matter how you spec it, at least that's how it feels anyways.

aside from that i'm not sure what else to say. I don't really find it "disengaging" or "boring" due to a lack of active skills

I've tried some other classes before, and to be frank i felt like they were generally less engaging than the warrior i'm used to playing, or at the very least i didn't enjoy them as much

i don't think it'd hurt to have something more interesting and interactive with the gameplay than weapon mastery as a skill, but i don't think simply slapping a new damage skill there on a cooldown will suddenly make the class more "engaging"

who knows, maybe someone here will come up with a neat idea that would fit well though. Honestly I'm not immediately able to think of something i'd want more out of the base class

one idea i saw from this thread i thought was quite cool was Brute Force dealing extra damage if the knockback collides with a wall

sounds fun, albeit situational to your environment and could potentially encourage trying to slam tougher targets into a wall (and it would help out the enhancement a bit)

the main thing i like about the idea is that it sounds more natural and doesn't conflict with existing gameplay

just adds a small extra layer of depth to something argued to need it. I think that is important when considering ideas for skill changes

If i had to pick out warrior passives that i find could use a touch-up, stuff like the Counter Strike Enhancement, Weapon Mastery (And its Enhancement), Brute Force's Level 1, and the Axe Stun Effect on Riposte 2 could maybe be looked at.
I think there is some interesting potential in moving the effect of Weapon Mastery over to the Class Passive in favor of something more fun to use, so I feel ideas for that could be pretty creative.

[upbeat tartan]

Imagine if shield wall counted for it as a wall.
Ping pong guardian build.

[half wigeon]

would also like a cd reduction, or something similar to defensive lines level 2

[potent flame]

the passives make warrior and scout so uninteresting to me that they are my least played classes by far

[lusty minnow]

riposte E:

🤢 🤢 🤢 🤢 🤢

[potent flame]

im still hoping for a full scout rework that just gets rid of the speed/jump skill and haste skill entirely

[cinder echo]

what even is the mage passive

i think i can name like 4 class passives

iirc mage is some spell melee interaction

[cinder echo]

but mscout ☹️

[lusty minnow]

"gets rid of the speed/jump skill"

🤨

[cinder echo]

hast

e

[lusty minnow]

literally what is he cooking

[potent flame]

yeah just rework Scout into Archer

then i'll play it

(while i actually would play it then, i want to mention that this suggestion is clearly a joke and not serious)

as a former tree of savior player im just simply used to my good old Mergen builds and having like 8 active skills that all shoot 3+ arrows

and so bow gameplay in Monu feels boring to me in comparison, where a quarter of Scout's skills being taking up by boring exploration passive does not help

it more or less even just feels like a leftover from classic 2017 monumenta's class designs that doesnt really work with the game today in my opinion.

[tidal ibex]

idm not having a lot of actives
Being still minecraft-y is one of the features of monu and having lots of actives kind of drives away from that
I don't know how many players still embraces this, but I do. I like the vanilla+ sort of experience.

Instead of passives reworked into actives, I think I would rather have passives that changes how you play, so called conditional passives.

[potent flame]

i like conditional passives

i wouldnt run Spellshock 2 and Omen 2 if i didnt

i think Sharpshooter already fills the Scout passive slot on its own as a conditional one quite well

it really doesnt need 2 more, that are also unconditional

[fickle bay]

warrior niche in r1 definetly feels like it is oneshotting.

though it kinda falls of in delves i imagine

[spiral frost]

jump boost completely changes the way you play the game, far more then sharpshooter level 2 does (which just builds up damage over time)

I think scouts game play variety comes from the class having 4 ranged weapon choices and being encouraged to mix them together. Although often the weapons are not balanced or even available (theres literally 2 snowballs in region 1 and one of them is an stupid event item so theres really only 1 choice)

ranged weapon enchants are also less interesting then melee ones; theres just not that many unique ranged weapons out there unfortunately.

[thick basin]

Jb is a massive game changer yes, I don't agree with the previous sentiment of it not adding much

[fickle bay]

jb from scouts passive makes all that remains final boss much easier

[copper grail]

the staggered debuff is certainly some exotic cooking

maybe a bit zesty but if the Staggered Debuff/BF knockback silenced enemies hit into a wall that would be pretty awesome

[calm stag]

i dont like how a lot of scout's abilities are just passives that are fairly necessary to make the class fun; i think itd be cool if sharpshooter's stack was moved onto L1 and some kind of active where you could expend all stacks for somwthing . . . cool; would help with feeling choked out with how the the rest of the skill points were spent

[winter helm]

jump boost being locked behind spending a skill point on... 20% speed... is definitely weird imo

don't get me wrong scout is a really strong class and it would become even stronger if it suddenly got another skill point from moving the jump boost to level 1, but like.. really?

there's gotta be better ways to give the class speed

[fickle bay]

passive
😊
👉👈

[potent flame]

@spiral frost @thick basin im not saying it doesnt add much

im saying that a skill that all it does is add a permanent potion effect is stupid

thats not what a skill should be

[twin kettle]

ngl that sounds a bit like part of wmastery enhancement and toughness enhancement... 🤭

[potent flame]

ngl

im so disinterested in warrior i havent even looked at its skills

ever

[thick basin]

You could have just said "no" and it would have conveyed the same meaning as this whole response

[potent flame]

terrible take

[thick basin]

It literally boils down to "agree to disagree" though, but given your rhetoric here I don't know if it's worth pushing the matter 😅

I made an alternative skill though
You become 20/40% faster while grounded. You do not receive this benefit while in the air or in water, unless you have depth strider.
Level 2: additionally, you can now jump higher up, putting you above enemy melee combatants attack range and granting access to usually inaccessible segments of encounters you may face. You do not take fall damage from the longer fall that comes from your increased jump height.

[spring warren]

isnt this

literally just what it is already

[thick basin]

Yes it is

Oops

[remote cedar]

I think having a "hit stuff" class as the base is fine
It could have more actives though

[potent flame]

yeah idk if its worth debating something with someone who refuses to read what im trying to say, the whole level 2 writeup just sounds like youre trying to prove "jump boost is good, trust me" which is literaly not even what im debating at all

i never even said it wasnt a good effect, because clearly it is

[cinder echo]

i think the point was that skill point (for skills) (skilley things) going toward potion effect (you can literally just get this with spider essence) is not a good skill design, no matter how good it is

[potent flame]

yeah

[cinder echo]

i don't think there was a suggestion for what it should be replaced with though

[thick basin]

Yeah no I knew what you were saying, and I think it's naive

[winter helm]

I think jump boost is fine for a passive but I do not think merely 20% speed is

[cinder echo]

i think jump boost would be overpowered as a class passive

at least its current level

the other thing is it completely invalidates mscout

[winter helm]

yeah it shouldn't be the class passive

[potent flame]

note that im just very annoyed that i want to play some archer class with a bunch of different shot based skills
and scout literaly has volley and thats it (not counting specs)

which pissed me off greatly ever since Monumenta's launch to this day

[thick basin]

I'd say this is on the money for me
The idea that redundant passive effects are inherently bad isn't very convincing, but I do think speed is a lacking passive

[potent flame]

Steel in DD/CZ probably feels closer to what im looking for

[cinder echo]

veteran

[nimble pollen]

Haha ur old

[cinder echo]

i mean

respect..

[potent flame]

i joined like 1 week into the beta

when the server still had whitelist applications and changing classes cost 10 levels

[spring warren]

i think it makes sense but i'd rather its a bigger speed boost that u get actively

like maybe when ur low u gain 40% speed to escape or smthn

[potent flame]

meanwhile Alch has energizing elixir

which is a skill that sounds like it does the same thing as the scout skill

except i like it a lot more because you actively have to keep it up

[cinder echo]

automatic ee:

[potent flame]

ngl

i forgot that was added and i dont even know how to enable that

[remote cedar]

you have to enable the enabler in the skill keybind settings

[potent flame]

ive been manually keeping it up

[potent flame]

i see

i rarely rebind skill hotkeys

think i just used it for some shaman skills

[thick basin]

Lmao that this is a thing is too funny here

[lusty minnow]

mfw people forget the jump boost has a toggle in the keybinds

[cinder echo]

i remembered, but then you turn off the class passive

=

[lusty minnow]

other classes have passives that are pretty much always disabled
just "while disabled, passive offers 10% increased melee speed and 10% increased projectile velocity instead"

no I'm not salty about warriors passive

what makes you say that

this is libel and I will have you charged

[thorn smelt]

the only class with a worse passive than warrior is alch, and thats because the passive is "the class functions as intended"

it could literally be placebo and there would be no difference

[lethal dagger]

What is the alch passive again?

[thorn smelt]

alch bags regen potions

i think

[lethal dagger]

incredible

[thorn smelt]

and deal damage

literally, "the class functions"

[lethal dagger]

Allows using Alchemical Utensils. You gain one potion every 2 seconds, up to a maximum of 8. Each dungeon has its own alchemical utensil with unique stats, including damage, potion radius, and projectile speed (effectively range), as well as enchantments.

[thorn smelt]

but yeah besides that, wasnt warrior's passive bugged for like, a long time?

[lethal dagger]

Truly incredible

[thorn smelt]

i swear it was, and frankly might still be, because even though i've heard it was fixed, I SEE NO DIFFERENCE

yknow what honestly

warrior's passive might be wrose than alchs

at least alch's can be confirmed to do something

for all we know warrior's might not even work

[lethal dagger]

It’d be like having the Mage passive be: You can use cast spells using wands and can utilize the spell power stat

[thorn smelt]

even if it does, 2 kbr. whats 2kbr gonna do

in gallery, when i get pushed away while tryna revive somebody, its not from getting hit

its from physically being pushed by entities running into me

[nimble pollen]

Okay thats a little too mean, even if it was a placebo the idea of it is better than nothing

[lethal dagger]

What’s a little too mean

[thorn smelt]

on that last note, jesus fuck enemies like the guardian-spiders in marina are really annoying

[nimble pollen]

I agree that the passive is a total nothing burger but i think comparing said burger to literal nothing is...

[solemn talon]

Alch’s passive is fine

It opens up its main form of attack which is totally unique and defines the class

[thorn smelt]

you've just verbosified "it makes the class function"

[nimble pollen]

dont play alch at all so i guess so

[solemn talon]

🤯

Yes, because the class mechanic is unique

Maybe the vitriol is getting a bit too high in here

[lethal dagger]

Mage has the unique ability to use Spell Power but that isn’t its passive ability

[lethal dagger]

true…

[thorn smelt]

The mage analogy perfectly articulates the point about alch's passive.

yes, the class functions via spell power and whatnot, but that doesnt replace it's passive ability

[solemn talon]

Maybe I shouldn’t have put spell power into mage’s passive for new players if it would lead to this misunderstanding…

[lethal dagger]

Passive: After casting a spell, your next melee attack with a wand deals 20% more damage.

[lean thistle]

I think alchs passive should be a little more than “use this weapon”

[nimble pollen]

well its a unique way of attacking that isnt attached to an ability so i kind of see it

Cooked passive doe...

[thorn smelt]

my biggest issue with warrior's whole kbr passive besides it being generally unnoticable

is that you're constantly critting

and in air, your kbr gets absolutely murked

so it would hardly matter anyways

[nimble pollen]

Alch gets a wicked passive and shaman gets spec passives? Conclusion? Annihilation of the two

[copper grail]

warrior passive would be a little clean if it also had something like "Also, negate the first instance of taking knockback from an enemy..." with some condition (cooldown, though maybe a little hmm for a passive, offhand shield, refreshed on kill, idk)

[thorn smelt]

ngl that feels just as nothing burger

i've said it before ill say it again, warrior's passive should give a stack-based effect gained from critting enemies that buffs their combat strength in some way so they actually serve their purpose of bruiser gameplay and sustained combat better

instead of being a generalist melee class that just falls behind later on

[nimble pollen]

Isn't that just rampage

[thorn smelt]

rampage is dr and can be triggered

it just makes you a tank

im more talking stacking damage/attack speed gain so you arent constantly relying on frenzy for some builds, which makes you kinda useless in boss fights

like its kinda stupid how big of a difference my dps in orasomn is when im just tanking and critting vs when i quickly go and kill a fodder enemy then start hitting him again

its like "isnt warrior's whole fucking deal constant fighting? so why does it suck at prolonged attacking?"

[remote cedar]

if kbr was "the chance to blank a hit and instead take the damage as true damage health loss" then it would be much more fitting for warrior

[remote cedar]

sug add allow frenzy to trigger after dealing x crits to a single target in a row

[thorn smelt]

ngl thats not a horrible idea BUT

wouldnt fix the trash passive

[remote cedar]

it would still be bad yeah but at least getting hit while jumping doesn't spike you into the ground anymore

(if kbr procs)

give warrior a lifeline

passive could be changed to getting half a level of lifedrain

[thorn smelt]

ld1 with crits is a half heart per crit

literally just giving warrior ld1 as the passive could work wonders

cause then you dont need to have a ld piece in your build

[remote cedar]

actually yeah
or a level of passive earth aspect

[thick basin]

Thatd be low key busted but I wouldn't mind as a non warrior
But there'd still be warrs not happy with that (does that matter?)

[remote cedar]

tbh stamina might also work

[nimble pollen]

Well i mean 5 dr is 5 dr

[remote cedar]

if the idea is to hit or be hit