#Why is TM so opaque about information?

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

low oar
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And there’s like a month or even multiple months where the item is really really bad

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ie Oneiro

ivory yoke
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All I'm really asking for is a little more transparency - not shifting the slider from 100% opaque to 100% transparent, but when something is on the chopping block of being nerfed, don't say "We're nerfing X next update :)" say "We're going to look at how effective X is at Y, and try nerfing its Z a little."

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Otherwise you'll have players scrambling to fix their builds after sweeping nerfs happen out of the blue and asking for them to be toned down a little, and they'll have to wait a month or more with a worse-off build because of it

dim zephyr
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all im asking is for the balance team to take feedback before they shoot items

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they are like two how would they judge what it deserves

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most of the time id bet theyve never used those items..

ivory yoke
wet pendant
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in fact make it longer; in creating a week to get community insights in and apply any necessary changes and wherein nothing is final, it allows for balance changes that will probably be better measured and much less disagreeable while still keeping market uncertainty, which is a legitimate thing to be concerned about

ivory yoke
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If you don't use an item, how are you to judge its effectiveness?

wet pendant
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from that second week of changes, take however long of s regular time tm likes to breathe, run the gauntlet again when it comes time

ivory yoke
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I think many people feel that Stoneborn Sculptor was nerfed purely because a lot of people were using it, and whether ot not it was deserving of such nerfs, it feels very reactionary to shoot it down into being nigh unusable

low oar
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Some nerfs are understandable but there are times where the Balance team pivot extremely hard into nerfing an item to the point of near inusability
ie [Marina Noir Easter Egg Crossbow] and Exalted Stoneborn Sculptor

fallow zinc
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and who knows if these individual people know what they are talking about

wet pendant
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devs should share their design philosophy btw

ivory yoke
low oar
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Something something Calculator

fallow zinc
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you both have a good point

ivory yoke
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Even Mojang themselves were public with how they design Minecraft updates during a Minecraft live to quell uncertanties with how Minecraft was moving forward, without revealing everything about how Mojang works

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Even in this very thread we were given some insight as to how balancing works in regards to the community's opinion

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Which is great, we should have more of that

lament lava
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mojang release press bites at live events away from a public forum and leave no realistic response path to back and forth it in any long form way

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you don't want that

fallow zinc
wet pendant
lament lava
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also only release things like, 2 times a year

subtle blaze
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I have 0 idea what's going on here

wet pendant
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lotta ideas

paper acorn
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holy crap this is a warzone

wet pendant
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pick one and contemplate it 👍

white oriole
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  • If you want #gameplay-discussion or other channels about balance to improve and stop > being shitposty, bring back the shitposting channel. I've said it before, but deleting void-chan didn't delete the shitposting with it. All it did was break a glass tank at an aquarium instead of having all the fish contained, now you've got them all spread out around the place making a mess to clean up. If people are shitposting, give them a channel to direct their shitposting to, so when they continue shitposting, you can tell them you told them to go to the shitposting channel and can moderate them for it.
    I don’t think readd void chat channel will help. I’m much prefer shitpost in different server
fallow zinc
paper acorn
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lots of messages tho

subtle blaze
dim zephyr
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mag shadow light!!

wet pendant
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we are doing the most wonderful thing: thinking it through

fallow zinc
paper acorn
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idk kinda just got a weird reaction from the messages now that i read it its not bad

fallow zinc
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understandable

lament lava
# wet pendant @ ziggleflig do you have thoughts on this

i don't think it's any good for morale for someone to spend however long it takes to make a change to then have to go through a public "insights" discussion, declare all the work they did as not final and change anything they did within a week to placate. I think the current monthly approach is more than effective at handling things and offers people time after completing major work to sit back, look at some related bugs and process stuff

fallow zinc
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but yea a little bit more transparency would be nice, I was pleasantly surprised to see the small note under this month's balance change

lament lava
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time is already hard to find in an increasingly difficult world to live in, having a quick turnaround necessity is just going to burn people out more than it will speed things up

subtle blaze
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Also aren't the balance people still looking at what people say about the items between balance updates or did I misunderstand.

dim zephyr
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magshadow light!!

lament lava
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yes, devs look around through chats to see what all is being said on items/classes/etc

ivory yoke
lament lava
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we don't state a guarantee that anything is read, because that's a silly guarantee to make

subtle blaze
lament lava
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but changes are made based on experiences and things they see

ivory yoke
wet pendant
subtle blaze
ivory yoke
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I think it's what's lead #gameplay-discussion to become #gameplay-discussion

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People assume their voices aren't heard, because there's no indication that they are heard, and so people just assume they're shouting into the void

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And as such, they use it to shitpost, because what does it matter if nobody's listening?

wet pendant
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if a specific feedback post is cited for a balance change? Huge

lament lava
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stating that we have read a message whenever something is said is just going to be spammy and then lead to people pinging devs to read a message that may have been read but not directly stated as such

subtle blaze
ivory yoke
lament lava
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what do you think would happen if we started defining what messages were read? because that's what i'd see coming next

fallow zinc
ivory yoke
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I'm not asking for you to put under every patch note:
"SuperPlayer13 said that they wanted to see Roar of the Valley with extra damage, so that's what we're doing!"

Just, something like
"We've heard your discussions about Roar of the Valley, and we've looked into giving it more damage"

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As an example

fallow zinc
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even without a dev popping in to say anything, I still think the changes can still speak for itself

ivory yoke
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And then the people in gameplay-discussion would be like "Oh yeah, we were talking about that earlier!"

wet pendant
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No do not do individual messages either!!!!! it is so sensible to just tell people "we looked at the thread and this is how we address it moving on"

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it gives these feedback threads credibility

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dont try to point ar individuals of course you dont want to do that

subtle blaze
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It has positives and negatives

ivory yoke
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It really feels like you're falling into the slippery slope fallacy a lot here

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'Let people know their voice has been heard' turned into 'What, give an 'ok' reaction to every message read and considered?'

wet pendant
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^

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incredibly reductive

subtle blaze
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Sounds like work

ivory yoke
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Takes work to make it work

subtle blaze
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Welp anyways, I got class, so gl og

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ig*

fallow zinc
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see ya Ascynx o/

ivory yoke
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We're not asking for the moon here, we just want a little more openness from what feels like the shut-in dev team

lament lava
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some threads just.. will not have an action take off of them, that's just how things go. Same with suggestions, and messages in gameplay spaces, and in game. This sounds like the expectation would be that a feedback thread led to a comment with plans to take action on it, but that's just not going to be realistic both for handling situations where there will not be action taken (since that's just going to feed further argument) or situations where it takes a while to do (when feedback thread X change)

wet pendant
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it is so chill to be a case by case basis

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not everything can have a citation

ivory yoke
wet pendant
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not everythibg will be noticed by the playerbase

ivory yoke
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If something really stands out, give it a shoutout

lament lava
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but without the citation, how do people know it's being considered/changed?

wet pendant
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add the internal teams jystification for it

ivory yoke
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Like, the Sirius feedback thread has got a lot of traction and likely had a lot of influence over how Sirius is balanced - what could've been said is "Following the feedback from the players in the Sirius feedback thread, we've decided to change X"

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And then people who talked about it in there will know that what they said wasn't for nothing

lament lava
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won't that lead to complaints when it does lead to nothing?

wet pendant
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or if it doesn't have a feedback thread that was looked at, " We noticed x, so we changed y and playtesting found that to work" or "Changes to the item calculator has caused some stats to move around, affected items will be marked with *"

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hi zig

ivory yoke
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wdym when it leads to nothing?

wet pendant
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why do you think we're here

gilded lark
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do you mean like some posts being confirmed to not be feasible or something?

lament lava
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that's what i'm saying

gilded lark
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i'd still rather hear that than nothing

ivory yoke
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Yeah I'd rather the confirmation that it isn't feasible instead of just being left in the dark

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Like when a suggestion is closed for that reason instead of just being left open and stuck in purgatory

lament lava
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when it's said that no plans are being made to change something related to that, isn't that going to cause the same belief in not being listened to, just for sure now?

wet pendant
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Yes

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And thats reassurance enough

ivory yoke
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I wouldn't say so

gilded lark
ivory yoke
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In saying that no plans are being made to change it, as sad as it might be, people at least know their feedback was heard

signal wing
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for 3 playcoins™️, i can activate the super feedback feature

wet pendant
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Alternatively, just have "not currently feasible but desireable" as a way to close a suggestion

lament lava
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and is that the point we can close a thread and be clear of it popping up further?

ivory yoke
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And if someone else raises the same feedback, just like duplicate closed suggestions, you can point to that thread as an example

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Hell, a dev coming into a thread and saying "This was some really good feedback, we'll be sure to consider it" or "Sorry, but this isn't feasible right now." would help a lot

gilded lark
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yeah

wet pendant
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oh absolutely

ivory yoke
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Otherwise you end up with people asking why TM is so opaque about sharing information

gilded lark
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you get people saying "feedback posts get nothing done"

ivory yoke
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Because right now it feels like making a virgin sacrifice to the sun god and hoping your crops grow next season

gilded lark
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just feeds cynicism

white oriole
wet pendant
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do you follow all this btw

ivory yoke
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Did your feedback thread influence the thing you gave feedback on? Who knows. Maybe that balance change was influenced by it, maybe it wasn't.

plush spade
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Why can suggestions that a have 50 upvotes be ignored

wet pendant
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Infeasible

white oriole
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Motivation?

ivory yoke
wet pendant
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No devs want to work on it or too big in scope

gilded lark
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or no one wants to do them

ivory yoke
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So they end up in suggestion purgatory

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They're not bad/unpopular enough to be rejected, but there aren't enough devs available to work on implementing it

wet pendant
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It's disappointing but there is too big a volume to hit each one with a response

ivory yoke
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You can't respond to every piece of feedback, but if one is truly influential or really stands out with real effort put into it, a response to that wouldn't hurt

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Give the players some interaction rather than radio silence

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Let people know what's happening, or how their feedback has helped

lament lava
ivory yoke
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Open communication a little more instead of having 'The Dev Team' and 'The Playerbase' in two seperate camps

ivory yoke
lament lava
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most suggestions sit in the box of "cool idea, maybe later" land

plush spade
ivory yoke
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Rejecting it both shuts down the idea and makes it seem like it won't be added, so future suggestions for it will be automatically closed

lament lava
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If we close the suggestion and it gets purged, it is forgotten forever

plush spade
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Next why can feedback that have dozens of people agreeing with it get not a single dev response

wet pendant
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why not just acknowledge suggestion purhatory within suggestions

gilded lark
lament lava
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there is a reason we have a suggestion bot

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and not just a pile of messages

wet pendant
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nyea

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i think its worth having it in channel desc (idk if it is or not) to state that most cant make it in due to how tm is organized but they are appreciated

ivory yoke
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iirc, I gave similar feedback a long while ago just to have some kind of response when a popular suggestion was in the 'considered' section - where it's in the 'We'll implement it, but not right now - maybe later' and was given then 'All suggestions are considered, though' response, which actually doesn't tell me anything

wet pendant
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yea thats just tm failing to call it as it is

ivory yoke
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Because, again, when all suggestions are considered, none of them are

gilded lark
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not sure i follow this 100%

lament lava
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if it has to be given an up or down from a dev at a specific point, then it's going to end with more rejection

ivory yoke
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If a dev starts working on a suggestion, say so

lament lava
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only like 2 devs assign things

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and they do it to suggestions as well

gilded lark
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but i don't think they want to set in stone suggestions if they don't want to do them

wet pendant
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spy the goat

lament lava
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there are things in the suggestions bot i want to do eventually, but if i attach my name to it now and don't plan to do it for months, i'm gonna get pinged to ask about it's progress when it's sitting doing nothing

ivory yoke
wet pendant
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i think suggestions are a nonissue for the record

ivory yoke
gilded lark
ivory yoke
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If there was a suggestion to add a funny hat, you wouldn't assign it to yourself until you started the process of adding the funny hat

gilded lark
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which makes sense

lament lava
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most suggestions are not long tasks imo, and assigning it is only a few day's early notice that something is happening

wet pendant
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i think its pretty evident when something is being worked on, when sugs get an assigned: they usually get in

ivory yoke
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That's still better than no notice at all

lament lava
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by not defining a promise of action by one person, it opens the door for others who may want to do it

gilded lark
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that too

ivory yoke
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Yes, that's why it'd only be when the work starts

lament lava
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i don't want to be pinged by players if i assign myself something and don't do it for next update

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or don't do it in their specific way

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because suggestions are often a starting point to a different implementation

ivory yoke
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Not doing it 1:1 is an expectation from suggestions - you're suggesting an idea

gilded lark
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i feel like suggestions are mostly fine, but maybe it could be made more obvious that "all suggestions are considered" or something

gilded lark
ivory yoke
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Again, you would assign yourself something when it was in the process of being made and would be finished

You wouldn't assign yourself something if it was something you wanted to do, but wouldn't do it until a few months later

wet pendant
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i do recall when i asked for dj on proj and seeing cs say that the implementation would be doable

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look the notice is in the changelogs

white oriole
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Unless it was a meme suggestion, man, why did they reported a meme suggestion notlikethis

wet pendant
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let the dev breathe, suggestions like . . . . idk where the issue is with them: a good majority just arent going to get in and there are too many to acknowledge: it sucks that the community cant push tm torwards a popular sug but like

signal wing
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this is gonna sound kinda hostile which isn't my intent but what's different about monumenta from other games that makes people believe they're entitled to their feedback and suggestions being personally responded and considered by devs? I think it's pretty standout how much we already do in that regard compared to 99.99% of other games/developers, and none of us are even paid to do it

wet pendant
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at the end of the day thats like trying to pressure somebody to do art

wet pendant
wet pendant
gilded lark
lament lava
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better for who?

wet pendant
gilded lark
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i imagine better primarily for the players, as they would directly feel listened to and acknowledged. People would probably be a bit less cynical about changes and i think in turn that would indirectly benefit everyone in some ways

wet pendant
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i have no idea how many times thats been reiterated but at this point it's reaching too many

gilded lark
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better to reiterate things and be extremely clear than to not

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understanding is the effective key to communication

wet pendant
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true but i bring this up because im having the toughest time discerning if zig is arguing here in good faith or not

gilded lark
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i wouldn't inherently assume he was doing it in "bad faith"

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or anyone for that matter

signal wing
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do you think you truly need and deserve more interaction and engagement than you already get, and that TM needs to take time away with other things to further engage with feedback

white oriole
gilded lark
wet pendant
gilded lark
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it is made with the belief that it would make things a bit better

wraith canyon
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that would probably come at the cost of making things worse for the devs

gilded lark
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that has been argued previously yes

minor cradle
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I just want to throw my opinion in, I don't understand or engage in the issue of discussion between players and developers enough to know a sustainable way to facilitate it, but what I know is that even a single sentence helps a lot in the change logs. I remember there was an update where under the changes I think it was chiinox posted a single sentence on why the change was made, and I appreciate that little bit of effort much more than if there was nothing at all. I think just this facilitates healthier discussion (unless the sentence is vague, causes misunderstandings or players disagree with the reasoning outside of the change itself which is kind of a community problem if it does happen)

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If nothing else that's what I'd love to happen more from this post

gilded lark
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i feel like even in a case of disagreement it helps a bit

celest crystal
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The devs providing their reasoning Versus them leaving room for the readers imagination. Guys I think TM is encouraging creative thinking over here

white oriole
minor cradle
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As for the argument above in the post itself about the reasoning becoming generic, I still feel like it'd be a positive change

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Plus by criticizing the reasoning behind changes instead of the changes themselves, feedback can reach deeper and potentially fix long term balance problems

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(The minus being its much easier to either be personally toxic as the person providing feedback or offended as the dev)

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Which we have to account for as being more stressful as a dev, after all they are volunteers

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On the other hand is that a sacrifice worth having if it leads to healthier balance?

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I don't really know myself so I'll leave with those questions unanswered

wet pendant
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ty

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im dogie tired so gn but i do wanna see the data cook

signal wing
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im not really cooking, just tired so i'm taking a long time to decide how to word things

wet pendant
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yea i get that

signal wing
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(tired as in irl sleepy)

gilded lark
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same

wet pendant
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ty for tryinh to be considerate about it

celest crystal
wet pendant
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Bumky hates Babies

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Got it

celest crystal
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My vanity has a DaBaby head in it. Check your sources kappa

wet pendant
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eii339u2y24

minor cradle
signal wing
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it's really not a priority for TM to spend further time with suggestions, feedback, and justifying every change we make in hopes that toxicity will be quelled and devs will be less discouraged to engage here

it's not something we should need to sacrifice/compromise on, like "ok guys, we're gonna communicate more at little benefit to us, hope everyone now decides to be more reasonable and not discouraging". We don't need to justify any of our decisions because ultimately we're volunteers making a game that we want to play and we have its health in mind. The fact that the community can engage so closely with the devs as is is amazing, but it becomes harder to maintain as the server grows and we can't realistically be expected to do more to compensate for so many more voices and continue the engagement we used to have.

Ultimately, I agree that more could be done to communicate the reasoning behind balance changes (not every single one, but still more of them), and it wouldn't be much extra work to do so, but to expect more than that is very unrealistic

wet pendant
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honestly that'd be a w

minor cradle
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Oh yeah forgot to add that the level of dev engagement here is already leagues above anything else I've ever been a part of

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This is only a minor inconvenience in comparison

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To other dev teams' communication

gilded lark
minor cradle
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Still I think a lot can be achieved at little cost of time and energy from devs even with a sentence or two

prisma ingot
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There's a lot to catch up on, but just seeing a post from a dev in a feedback thread saying

Aware of this discussion. Do not ping for input at this time.

Would be encouraging and show that they are being looked at

gilded lark
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would be nice

lament lava
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if i were able to not have to talk about a change at all with a dev note, i would perhaps agree, but i doubt it, so probably not going to make that a focus, imo. if it's going to spawn conversation anyways, i'm not going to feed it more, but eh.

signal wing
gilded lark
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i think part of the goal is to spawn conversation about changes. More well informed and constructive ones that are potentially closer to the developers vision/better health of the game

wet pendant
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and acknowledge where changes come from so those convos are given meaning

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this is a cute place to head off thanks guys for um

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yea

gilded lark
signal wing
minor cradle
gilded lark
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i suppose it goes back to the suggestions argument again, where it ought to be assumed they are looked at or considered, just that it isn't obvious on the surface

wet pendant
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nyea

gilded lark
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i think with feedback posts the problem is only exacerbated further because they typically require much more time investment and effort to put together a well-constructed one

wet pendant
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like again we could or couldnt have devs leave that notif in but i think what would be infinitely more valuable would be to have the thread pointed at in the changelogs

kind verge
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what if when new balance changes are released they would create a thread to that change log for more open discussion about them 👍

prisma ingot
wet pendant
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it is gp disc tho so

prisma ingot
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What specific changes would you want to see in such a thread to make this idea an improvement over the existing discussion

prisma ingot
minor cradle
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Also want to add, i dont think balance devs are so detached they specifically dont want to add notes. Even if not a standardized system, just setting a precedent that putting dev notes is viable and encouraged could do a lot of good

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Right now I can imagine the devs dont even think of that as an option

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Autocorrected devs to devils..

signal wing
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sure, some if not most people will know it's not like a binding agreement that something will come from the feedback, but not everyone will

rugged hamlet
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Wooooo

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I read the entire thread!

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Anyways I have something to add.
I think that gameplay-discussion, as a channel to discuss the balance of items, is inherently flawed because of the fact that balance is something that can appease literally no one.

gilded lark
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what would there be to really discuss if different opinions didn't exist?

rugged hamlet
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The problem with these opinions is that they will always appear and that they sometimes can't ever be appeased.

gilded lark
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i think that's a general life issue

rugged hamlet
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I agree with the more transparency tho <3 it always helps understand why something happens and why.

gilded lark
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indeed

prisma ingot
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Opinions on items/classes/skills would ideally be backed with evidence (gameplay), as differences in player skill, mechanical ability, and/or experience, as well as gameplay preference/philosophy/mindset (level of aggression/reservation in environments, favoring of some approaches/skill/etc over others) make differences in opinion inevitable. Comparison footage asks for more time by the submitter, but would be insightful as to why some opinions are held

gilded lark
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this guy gets it ^

prisma ingot
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Manmonke's video on berserker gameplay was... A recording approach of all time, but I did like to see how others play a class and actions or decisions they take that I don't, since R3 has expanded the viable pool of options, builds, and playstyles significantly more than R2, even if there is a lot of concern about balance (items mostly, but skills as well)

gilded lark
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there's a lot of nuance that people gloss over way too often

rugged hamlet
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Surprised there isn't like a combination of two channels (like with screenshots)

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so that there is one channel to send the gameplay video, and the other channel to discuss the said video that shows a balance issue

prisma ingot
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Said comparison footage from developers would be a significant ask, as there's time taken for recording and not everyone is ok being under the camera and it's associated scrutiny, but I would like to see more players post footage of their time playing classes in a good faith effort for class balance, even if this could bring attention of nerfs towards said class

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(and on this note, I actually do have some recent footage of clears of Tolumaeus on my YT channel, including assassin, but I never got around to making this publicly known, though the videos are public on my channel)

vernal crater
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Omg vigilante

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Do you know why Sirius cost more lag than other bosses

low oar
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Block Entities?

prisma ingot
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All the footage (assuming there even is a substantial amount made) being watched by devs is also likely an unreasonable ask, but if a specific example could be pointed out in a video and would take less than a minute to watch, I think it would help provide more context than "X item sucks" and with an entire video to provide context, would be more substantial than basing an opinion of of a short clip which lacks said context

plush spade
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I will definitely post more game play for the future just so people can see why my opinions r so weird from my pov

prisma ingot
# vernal crater Do you know why Sirius cost more lag than other bosses

I am not a developer and lack the understanding of the boss and the underlying code behind it, but I would guess that the amount of mobs being spammed with potential glowing from scout eagle eye (very likely given the current state of Sirius), block overwriting for blight, and entity overload (mostly Sirius itself) are the primary factors. That said, this is also what makes Sirius different from the other world bosses, so that's not very specific (but significant fps lag is felt during kauls summon skill, so I think there's definitely something to be said there)

vernal crater
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Thanks you so much vigilante I can cope another day no daily

minor cradle
vernal crater
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Max pt isn’t good to measure thing

plush spade
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I mean it's just more credible to have gameplay

plush spade
vernal crater
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I think pick the pt that counter that class is better than just full pt

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But whatever

plush spade
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That's why I base my opinions on max pts but I'm lowkey going back to 25 pt cuz max no longer feels reasonable

minor cradle
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I think solo gameplay should be judged on the basis of 12 points

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As devs intended

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Max delve loot scaling

vernal crater
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So we know

plush spade
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OK but I wanna make sure it's good in a group setting too

minor cradle
plush spade
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And reasonably every class should be soloing a 25 pt with ease

gilded lark
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well group play typically has people split up often

mint talon
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I'd like to believe that 25pt is a good standard given if the player is fully masterworked and fully (delved) infused
Afterall it is the max mob scaling and in groups if you ever to go to split off then you want to have a holding on your own

gilded lark
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so 25 makes sense

vernal crater
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Good way to fully test it cost a lot of time because the possibilities just too much

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How many players?
What content ?
How many delve pt?
Aggressive/safety first/balance?
Skill setup?
Builds?

plush spade
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Aggression should be based on the class no

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OK we are going off topic head to game play discussion at least

inner peak
#

how long has this yappathon been going

minor cradle
blazing fiber
ivory yoke
# signal wing it's really not a priority for TM to spend further time with suggestions, feedba...

I've been away but I think this is all that's really being asked for. Just, slightly more communication on the why would go a long way instead of just
"Your class/item is shit for a month or more. Why? Becuz funi lmao."

Having a lot of balance changes done behind the curtain and then one day a player of a class or item wakes up to see it's been nerfed into the ground for seemingly no reason other than it was good and people used it isn't the best way to harbour a good community and will lead to more toxicity and people thinking devs are incompetent (and thus asking them to stand down). If there was some tough, but fair, reasoning behind a few of the changes, it'd help a lot.

Like, at the end of a monthly changelog, you could say "This update, we wanted to focus on toning down X while also making Y a bit better to compensate. We believe that this will help with [gameplay reasons]."

obtuse frigate
#

Yeah chiinox at least trying to explain why certain items were nerfed a few balance patches ago was nice

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Even if we didn't agree with the reason to why those changes were made

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I specifically remember smth about siegebreakers when it lost like an agility or proj prot level idk

pastel wadi
#

It certainly gets rid of the feeling of "this change was so random"

obtuse frigate
#

I think smth else that should probably fall on the playerbase is to not have knee-jerk reactions to item nerfs, unsure if there ever have been times that has happened (I'm sure it has but I have no specific examples)

#

It goes both ways

slow plaza
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Even, it's more one way than the other

obtuse frigate
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Which way

slow plaza
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The community vomit makes it unpleasant to consider interacting

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As dev

obtuse frigate
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True!

ivory yoke
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It's work for both sides

prisma ingot
# ivory yoke I've been away but I think this is all that's really being asked for. Just, slig...

For the most severe changes I would definitely like to see some reasoning. A minor stat buff or nerf is likely not worthy of much discussion, but if there is a massive nerf in stats (Mavros) or a complete rework of an item or stat, users or players for that item or class may find that their build or playstyle wasn't nerfed to be somewhat ineffective, but completely unviable, which would be the cause of much frustration

ivory yoke
#

Yeah

slow plaza
#

Mavros was obvious though

obtuse frigate
#

An example is probably blade of reclamation

ivory yoke
#

I wouldn't say we need reasoning for why Word of the Architect got its damage increased by 1 at Masterwork 4

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Like, it's one damage

obtuse frigate
#

It was reworked suddenly to evasion instead of reflexes and through interaction with the playerbase that decision was reverted

prisma ingot
#

Something like the crusade rework was not as clear and had drastic effects for the class in R3

ivory yoke
#

And to address the elephant in the room, there's been a lot of discussion on both sides about nerfing Rogue & Swordsage, but nothing has actually been said about how

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Just 'It's getting nerfed :)'

#

When that happens I'd like some actual explanation for the changes that happen

obtuse frigate
#

Rogue hadn't really crossed my mind at all and I don't think anyone has said "it's getting nerfed"

ivory yoke
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I recall a member of TM saying it

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Plus it's been a topic of debate recently

obtuse frigate
#

A TM dev isn't always a balance dev or doesn't always have the influence to get balance changes made or suggested

subtle blaze
#

wait... what happened to rogue?

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;-;

obtuse frigate
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Nothing that we know

ivory yoke
obtuse frigate
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Not really

#

Devs work on different things

slow plaza
subtle blaze
obtuse frigate
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And not every dev has the motivation or knows the right people to suggest or get a balance change done, if that dev isn't a balance dev

ivory yoke
slow plaza
#

Nothing happened yet and it was one of the most talked about things for a little whole

subtle blaze
#

I just bonk my keyboard and then either something works or doesn't

ivory yoke
obtuse frigate
#

I guess you guys can just wait

ivory yoke
#

Ye

obtuse frigate
#

But to cherrypick an example I remember monarch would use to make statements such as "X is being reworked/changed at the end of the month" or "we're looking into X being changed"

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Which was nice

ivory yoke
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That's what I'd love to see a return of

obtuse frigate
#

Even if it's completely vague it's still nice to know that smth is being looked at

ivory yoke
#

Then you know what to expect to a degree

obtuse frigate
#

Maybe it's good maybe it's bad that's smth for future us to expect

ivory yoke
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Instead of being blindsided by changes

strange ruin
obtuse frigate
#

They're not promises

#

They don't have to be promises and we probably shouldn't expect them to be promises

subtle blaze
obtuse frigate
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And afterwards it can always be said that "the changes weren't completely looked at because we got busy with X and Y"

ivory yoke
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Yeah if a dev says "We're going to work on making Warlock play better" and then Warlock doesn't get changed, the dev could just say "Yeah I'm still working on that I need more time."

#

Just, open, reasonable communication

obtuse frigate
#

That's kind of mean to assume every player is just gonna full delve uninfuse their set and sell everything if they vaguely hear "there are going to be changes to X"

ivory yoke
#

Remember the human and all that

subtle blaze
obtuse frigate
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Thats also kind of mean to assume that a dev would say smth as nonchalant as "oopsie I gave up on it" and then for everyone to rip them to pieces

ivory yoke
#

I mean, that'd be on gameplay discussion

obtuse frigate
#

I'm pretty sure there were instances of smth being potentially added and changed and then were elaborated on as to why they weren't added or changed

#

And I don't remember anyone being torn limb from limb

ivory yoke
#

If it's that sort of offhand comment it isn't an official statement, but it is some communication from the devs to the players

#

Showing that the devs are human and they do work on stuff

obtuse frigate
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Such as the functionality of the eldrask arena cave

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I can't think of a balance change that was stated as "being worked on" but wasn't tho so I have no examples there

subtle blaze
#

well those sorts of messages are on a case by case basis, depending both on the dev and the target modification.

obtuse frigate
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Sure

#

Very few people are probably going to ask for elaboration on a .5 stat decrease/increase

#

But like was said earlier for smth such as a rework or anything more it'd probably be nice to have some comments

subtle blaze
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devs aren't exactly known to like writing documentation so having to explain our decisions ain't exactly an easy thing

obtuse frigate
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The huge item rebalance that happened before sneedpoint had chiinox try to put out comments on why some items were changed

ivory yoke
#

Don't misconstrue this as "We want to know EVERY change in advance and need reasoning for every little thing."

obtuse frigate
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That word choice is kinda harsh

subtle blaze
obtuse frigate
#

But true

subtle blaze
#

anyways, having to explain has a lot of repercusions that has a chance of discouraging changes to happen, although that entirely depends on the dev's character & the responses received earlier

obtuse frigate
slow plaza
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I can't lie either, this thread has discouraged me from considering deving with tm

obtuse frigate
#

It's not a bad thing but at the same time it's like

ivory yoke
#

I mean this is great, we need more of this

image.png
obtuse frigate
#

I guess it's just a people being different thing

subtle blaze
ivory yoke
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Sure but at least we know dev intention with the changes

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It can be evaluated on how well it achieved its goal vs. no notes and having to figure out why the changes were made in the first place

gilded lark
#

yeah

pastel wadi
#

I personally liked those changes and could see the intention in it

subtle blaze
#

well, I'll leave it to the balance dev to choose whether they'll act upon this thread or not.

pastel wadi
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I'm not a dev but I think that if I was I would certainly try to interact with the community as much as possible when there was talk about changes I made

#

but I can see why some devs don't do that

ivory yoke
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You're an RP lead tho

gilded lark
pastel wadi
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yes and I do absolutely stalk the shit out of every rp channel

ivory yoke
#

lmao

gilded lark
#

even if nothing changes he acknowledged it could probably be a little better communication-wise

subtle blaze
pastel wadi
#

quality over quantity 🥰

blazing fiber
subtle blaze
#

are you sure about that

karmic token
subtle blaze
karmic token
#

Pinning the dang original post so I don't have to scroll up for eons again

pastel wadi
#

thank you

ivory yoke
#

I love Discord threads

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Great design Discord

pastel wadi
#

I was wondering if there was any way to see it again at all

ivory yoke
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Probably searching with in:[thread] and sorting via Old

pastel wadi
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tried and failed

#

I am not smart enough to search in threads

ivory yoke
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It's poor design on Discord's part tbh

feral monolith
#

The one time discord iOS actually is superior

#

Just tap the clock and zoop to the top of the thread

minor cradle
wild needle
lament lava
ivory yoke
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I meant it more as a method of producing meaningful discussion and feedback, rather than a dissection of every change you make

#

Better that people know what you were going for when you decide to change something than to not know and think you don't know how the class works

wild needle
#

Anyways back on track, I think that the monumenta community is extremely privledged to have the devs interact as much as they do with the playerbase, but it isn't perfect, and probably never will be. I have massive respect for the devs after reading through the 1300+ messages last night and this morning and there were times when messages were being sent faster than I can read (Zig went above and beyond responding, at the detriment to their own sleep). In my opinion, I think that the devs should try out different levels of transparency for 1 or 2 months and see how well that works, just to try it out. As for notifying players of item balances, I think it would only make sense to provide explanations if somthing is being buffed to the sky or nerfed into the ground to a high extent so we know what the problem is. I think it would also be benificial to split #gameplay-discussion into one for discussing #1165742923510468618 and one to contain the clusterfuck known as #gameplay-discussion . I rarely venture in there and message, and I would like to have a channel dedicated to discussing specifically builds, or maybe there could be a posts tab for advice on builds. Just my 2 cents. I have been a patron for 1 year and 9 days as of today, and I can't think of a better thing to support than this sever of which I care deeply about.

subtle blaze
ivory yoke
#

Well yeah but I mean, that'd happen anyway

blazing fiber
#

if something is being discussed and raged about in #gameplay-discussion and it gets fixed for next update, that's still 4 days away

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i would like some notification about that pre-update so it stops festering in that channel

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and we can discuss other things knowing said topic has been worked on

dim zephyr
#

why is this yappathon still on

lament lava
#

saying it's been addressed is going to lead to argument over how though

blazing fiber
blazing fiber
#

very cool

dim zephyr
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np

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i dont think this has led anywhere has it

#

i saw datas? message i forgot

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thats the only thing that was gained out of this

lament lava
#

becomes a week long thing if there is someone who disagrees with it

wild needle
#

there will always be someone who disagrees with somthing

ivory yoke
#

Yeah you can't please everyone

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Such an effort is Sisyphean

slow plaza
lament lava
#

Just saying that it's not going to stop the speculation, it just becomes speculation as to your fix being wrong, as well as releasing a balance changelog early

obtuse frigate
#

There obviously won't be instantaneous and apparent results

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But the fact that this is a conversation that we're having is a positive gained

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Human beings aren't just a machine that you flip a switch or lever in and suddenly we all change our behavior or how we go about things

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And it's only been a day

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Less than a day actually, since this thread was made yesterday at night and it's tomorrow in the midday

ivory yoke
#

The fact this thread is still alive shows the amount of passion people have for positive change

obtuse frigate
#

So saying "this unfunny word has still been going on" when it hasn't even been going on very much makes no sense

ivory yoke
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I don't think anyone's directly attacked the devs here or been negative

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It's all been pretty civil discussion

pastel wadi
#

Demotivation to interact with the community is half the reason this thread even exists, don't come in here to cause more of it for no reason

karmic token
#

Pinning this to save my place

subtle blaze
#

"huh"

ivory yoke
#

[huh cat gif]

minor cradle
#

Huh

slow plaza
#

don't remind me

#

I love being called insincere because my take is disliked

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it really makes me want to continue an open dialogue in the future

karmic token
karmic token
#

I have finally finished reading this thread

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Mostly disappointed

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I spent 2 hours reading this instead of fixing bugs like I was planning

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Mag now is not the time

blazing fiber
#

thank you for reading it anyways ❤️

karmic token
#

This really was a "we want cake and and pizza and burgers with fries and hot dogs and spaghetti and soda" thread, nevertheless I will try to summarize my thoughts before I close it

blazing fiber
#

thank you uurik

#

surely this is constructive

white oriole
#

pain thank you for reading it

wild needle
#

1507 messages ☠️

long shadow
#

t

pastel wadi
#

One thing I just thought about is what we did this but for something that... isn't balance (no, not unreleased content)

#

early game improvements are also a pretty largely discussed topic right now

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would love to hear some of what devs are coming up with

#

I imagine that's a much more harmless topic than balance

karmic token
#

That already exists

#

MMRFC 4

pastel wadi
#

hasn't that been closed for several months now?

karmic token
#

The reason little has been done on that front is because it's a multi-discipline project

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And we were still working on SP at the time I made it because I knew it'd take a while to get the ball rolling on it

wild needle
karmic token
#

Monumenta Request for Comment

static copper
# karmic token This really was a "we want cake and and pizza and burgers with fries and hot dog...

Thank you for reading through what was said here.

While there were a lot of “wants” expressed in these messages, I think our discussion also encompassed some important underlying issues. Healthy communication is a two way street, and all parties need to trust the others and assume a certain level of good intentions from the other in order for communication to work. From what was said here, it seems that TM has at some level come to distrust the Monumenta community, and that a loud minority of the community has come to distrust TM in return. Many ideas were floated as to how to fix this, but one thing is for certain: it would take work on the part of both parties, perhaps one more than the other, to make progress towards that healthier state.

wild needle
#

I, for one, agree

humble basalt
#

very well said

#

appericate that

karmic token
gilded lark
karmic token
gilded lark
#

perhaps you're able to elaborate on how you feel and see if i can understand it

knotty forge
#

what the hell ...

image.png
#

ok has anything changed between 13 hours ago (when i went to sleep) and now

karmic token
#

No

knotty forge
white oriole
#

Wow, longest threads

static copper
static copper
# static copper Thank you for reading through what was said here. While there were a lot of “wa...

Addendum: It's also worth noting that this state of distrust is not without good reason, especially (even primarily) on the part of the devs. This community has a culture of snark and casual vitriol that is extremely harmful to the health of discussions and communication. I don't blame the team for pulling back from open communication, and, in fact, really appreciate all effort still made to communicate despite the checkered history of the toxic contingent of the community. I do think ultimately, the relationship needs fixing in order to heal the dialogue, but again, that requires work.

karmic token
#

Closing Statement from Spy, on Behalf of the Developers
Hi. I'm one of the balance developers. Here are my thoughts on this thread and what we, the balance developers, plan to do going forward.
(Read this in the thread if nothing else)

#

I will begin my summary by building off Fang's sentiments earlier in the thread: If you add more cooks to a kitchen, will they make food faster? If you add more players to an orchestra, can it play songs faster? Such is the way of the balance team. I will once again state the principles of the bazaar versus the cathedral and my commentary on the Cathedral model of balance decisions:

The cathedral model supposes a group of developers who do their work in a closed environment before public release. The bazaar model supposes a group of developers who do their work in an open environment where public comments are encouraged.

We do our best to make the game have one cohesive (and fun!) vision; opening balance to a bazaar styled architecture rather than a cathedral was a mistake that we made several years ago in TM's history that we will not repeat.

In a similar vein, the balance team is not responsible for the entire game, we don't have sway over every aspect of the game, and we cannot communicate for everyone else on Team Monumenta.

#

This leads to the bulk of my thoughts on "the balance team should communicate more with the playerbase": Good communication is better than no communication, but no communication is substantially better than bad communication. Both players and developers are capable of putting their feet in their mouths but the price a developer pays for bad PR can last years (see: the overwhelmingly memed EA statement "the intent was to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment"). While we try not to make poor judgement calls, there is absolutely no reason we would "fire" or otherwise expel a balance developer who makes a bad decision as some people implied earlier in the thread; we only do so in extreme cases such as a continuous lack of or poor communication that leads to widespread frustration. I personally am a big proponent of transparency and try to answer fully when asked about my decisions, but "'transparency' does not mean a perpetual obligation to justify and explain oneself." Very few developers have the patience, time, and motivation to be transparent in this manner, but let us suppose that we did give our reasonings for everything. Would this not lead to people attacking the reasoning behind our controversial decisions instead of the decisions themselves? The balance team's answer is a resounding "yes" and thus we may or may not occasionally cite our reasons when we so choose, because any time we spend in discussion with the development team at large or players means less time spent trying to correct our errors, which we are well aware of.

Unfortunately, this means that most of the time, a balance developer will read your feedback and nothing will come of it. You will have to accept our word, by faith, that we do listen and try to make a fun game.

karmic token
#

I will be locking this thread at the top of the hour

plush spade
#

ngl no communication is as bad as bad communication no ?

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o wait am i banned i talked

wraith canyon
#

it can usually have an effect where you give people more fuel to get mad at

plush spade
#

i guess

#

who is fighting tm about having bad item changes tho

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no one is going around on a riot trying to get a dev off the team jsut cuz they nerfed an item by 0.5 dmg

wraith canyon
#

everyone when item nerfs happened

atomic moss
#

Oneiro mavros incident:

crimson jacinth
knotty forge
#

pretty sure most players agreed that the oneiro nerf was deserved

dim zephyr
plush spade
#

^

knotty forge
#

there were disagreements on how much it should have been nerfed by but the nerf was deserved fo rusre

plush spade
#

it deserved it bro 🙏 anyway lets keep it on topi

low oar
#

Yeah it was deserved just way too harsh

dim zephyr
#

do you see anyone play oneiro right now?

plush spade
#

either way did any1 actually call out a dev and say "oh this dev is so dumb bro"

knotty forge
#

no because greatspear needs anerf 😭

plush spade
#

i doubt any1 said "tm is dumb" even

dim zephyr
#

mscr "this your balance team" gif

frank sigil
#

it has happened but i'd be cherry picking if i said that was a common occurrence

plush spade
#

they just said "this change is dumb"

knotty forge
plush spade
#

ok we ignore that

#

thats a class

#

a class causes much more debate and discussion no ?

knotty forge
#

true, not really balance

plush spade
#

not very comparable to an item change

low oar
#

2 weeks for 2 months indeed

crimson jacinth
#

as balance devs do you test out the nerfs or usually just go off by feeling ?