#Steelsage is NOT good

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

shadow delta
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Please keep discussion to steel, if you want to discuss other trees use my zenith tree balance thread.

OK so AS an AVID steel/scout main I am here to speak up, steel is NOT good.
Rapid fire was pretty meta but thats been toned down and now it's kinda just "playable."

What is going on with steel charms? Every stat has inconsistent caps and minimums, sharpshooter has a cap of 10% per stack and +10 stacks???
First of all, cap sharpshooter dmg. Notice how I didn't say stacks, because the stacks are surprisingly useless... It is really hard to keep up the stacks in boss and impossible in clear. A fix could be making volley/rapid fire grant stacks or something, maybe stacks can be based on damage done instead of shots hit?

Volley dmg is hard capped at 30% and is additive for what reason? Volley has already become pretty weak dmg wise and I thought charms would help but they are hard hard capped.

Here are my overall suggestions:

Volley:

  • Damage Additive -> Multiplicative
  • Charm Cap raised to 100% for volley dmg
  • Piercing should work on tridents across the game if possible... They are kinda just left out and its kinda sad

Sharpshooter:

  • Cap % per stack to 3%.
  • Make stacks easier to get, and if this happens cap +stacks at like 4 or something, depends on how much easier they become to hold.

Prec strike:

  • Rework this ability. Completely useless. Or:
  • Change it to a percent damage increase
  • Would rather we just rework it, not very interesting overall.

Scrapshot:

  • Be made useful
  • I honestly don't know what to do with this, firework blast and scarpshot are basically the same skill and niche and both should get a rework probs to be more different and interesting. Scrapshot having recoil is something you can lean into, possible mobility skill???

Metalmancy:

  • Honestly fine kinda? Still not very useful in clear
  • Maybe add some interaction where when you cast an ability it casts a weaker version for some aoe.
stray temple
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naw

kindred heart
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I disagree with Scrapshot point , it's good recoil ability , it like the nichie of ring of flame and ice barrier

shadow delta
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thanks for elaborating 🙏

kindred heart
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other is uh ok

civic atlas
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Better Idea: Make Point Blank work on Rapid Fire againdarkkermit

kindred heart
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but ye single target for scarpshot is....

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and it's damage isn't that even good

shadow delta
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ye

kindred heart
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what does AVID means...

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shadow delta
kindred heart
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imo either add piercing or let it be aoe skll for scrapshot or like this

image.png
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5 projectile like uh ... shotgun or sth will be cool

rain jewel
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Scrapshot does deal a ton of single target damage tbf

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But it is I guess a bit less compared to stuff like rapid fire and volley

shadow delta
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just rapid fire

kindred heart
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😭 it didn't kill colossal for me

shadow delta
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volley is honestly verging on being worse then side arm for me

kindred heart
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ok blaze is killable but not other tow

shadow delta
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maybe im dramatic but it just doesnt feel worth while

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the current argument for steel being meta is the oppenheimer calculations and theories that sharpshooter is gonna be so busted cuz of the caps yet literally no one has tried it

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i was able to get +4 stacks and like 4% dmg and it didnt matter cuz i couldnt even keep up the stacks

frigid wing
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Scrapshot's recoil just feels kinda goofy when sure it does deal quite a bit of damage itself, but there's like a dozen other abilities that deal just as much so having some form of "impact" to the hit just doesn't fit personally

kindred heart
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hit cap of sharpshooters can get 300%+ multi

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but likely noone has it rn

shadow delta
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then go do it. rn its physically impossible probs and even if u do it u will most likely spec all of ur charm power into it and end up being a trident ball bot who does a whole lot of nothing

kindred heart
shadow delta
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i disabled scrap shots trigger so i could rapid fire volley

steel hamlet
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did you try using sharpshooter decay timer charms they are really good

shadow delta
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its just not worth it

steel hamlet
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+2s makes all the difference

kindred heart
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hi ss

steel hamlet
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hi

civic atlas
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The Right Charm in the Wrong Place makes all the difference in the world

shadow delta
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either way sharpshooter caps r gonna get shot anyway probs

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its too exploitable to have such a huge dmg multiplier anyway

steel terrace
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what makes lightning bottle good? (best stellsage ability)

frigid wing
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But yeah the only reason I feel fine when I get steel tree is for rapid fire ngl. Having an extra ability slot tied to a passive for some huge single target damage is great for other trees that you're focusing on instead, but going projectile only feels like dead since side arm and scrapshot you gotta be much closer to the enemies and you need a non-proj weapon to cast it right

shadow delta
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it only feels worth it to play steel for rapid fire cuz it does have pretty good single target

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but u become useless in clear

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which im content with but now ur just a worse shadow but we also want steel to do aoe and its just like idk what direction the class is supposed to take

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cuz u can just run a comp that covers all bases and u dont need a steel for it

radiant grotto
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Naw

velvet swift
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I think some of the problem is also attributable by Zenith room and spawner design, there's many cases of high priority targets (elites) that spawn behind walls that tend to be bedrocked, so while a caster can overcome this with radius increases, a steelsage is stuck with the cramped and restrictive geometry of the room

shadow delta
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a steelsage just idk what its trying to achieve

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it should have the clearing power of a caster imo and be able to boss dps cuz thats what casters can do nowadays

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looking at u frost

kindred heart
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steel need to aim...

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caster just uh aimming air

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pepeg and hit through blocks

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tbh steel for me it's , aoe lose to caster m single target lose to shadow

shadow delta
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if u have a caster and a shadow in ur team ur essentially useless

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steel is just redundant ig is the word kinda

velvet swift
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Frost has gotten a passive for ice generation inherent to the tree, and I would like to see something similar for steelsage to front load some projectile damage into the tree. Projectile damage design on monumenta has kept projectile damage on weapons somewhat low and is bolstered by heavy multipliers (specifically sharpshooter, but to a lesser extent eagle eye and volley), and when these multipliers aren't as accessible with finite ability selection, steel stands to suffer the most

kindred heart
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yeye , rapid fire exist , idk how it perform for single target

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any rapid fire user can speak?

velvet swift
kindred heart
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what's base cd of rapid fire again

velvet swift
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Wiki says 22s

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Potential aside, another reason that steel may feel bad is related to the finite length of a zenith runs, but in an indirect way. When you upgrade a skill or gain an ability, your sharpshooter stacks reset to zero, preventing you from keeping any momentum gained throughout a room unless you delay ability selection for a few rooms. This isn't an issue in endless depths where your skills change much less frequently, but is very common in Zenith

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And given how overwhelming sharpshooter is as a damage modifier relative to other skills...

frigid wing
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Sharpshooter feels like it could be a hex eater situation where in reality it's actually pretty hard to get the most out of it, but in the scenario where you do have the full effect it's so incredibly strong that it'll be balanced around

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Idk if it's healthy for the class especially since if you're starting a boss you're likely to be at 0 stacks

shadow delta
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ur stacks reset everytime u pick an abiltiy btw...

pliant stag
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btw volley being multiplicative would be a nerf

frigid wing
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That doesn't make any sense unless you're saying that if it got made multiplicative the devs would also nerf the damage down so far such that it'd be worse, but multiplicative damage of the same amount is always more

pliant stag
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twisted volley goes up to 100% increased damage soo it being multiplicative and having the max 30% volley damage from charms would still only add 30% more damage ( which is same as it being additive )

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and as rarity goes down that multiplicative scaling will only be worse and worse compared to the current 30% additive

frigid wing
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You right I forgot charms added to the %increase and not the base damage

shadow delta
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iu shoudl specify actually

pliant stag
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charm cap or you talking about some other cap?

shadow delta
pliant stag
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ye that doesn't change anything about what I said

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it would still be a nerf compared to it right now being additive

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unless you just want it to be multiplicative and have its cap increased "just cuz"

shadow delta
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what

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100% increase to tis dmg vs 30% additive

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hello...?

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at twisted it would be 200% vs 130%

pliant stag
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im talking about switching from additive to multiplicative

shadow delta
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Yeah I am too

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A 100 percent multiplier is better then 30 additive what

pliant stag
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I agree, but im talking about why switch from additive to multiplicative in the first place

grim sorrel
# shadow delta Please keep discussion to steel, if you want to discuss other trees use my zenit...

As the (arguably) #1 metalmancy enthusiast or whatever you may want to call it, I agree with metalmancy being less useful for clear, but not entirely useless. I mean at max stats it can clear stuff but it's mainly suffering from targetting issues versus dmg especially when 2 are present (legendary +)

I'm no expert when it comes to later ascensions as I am a strict Ncz person really, but controlling targets is partly a pain because golems can't target the same mob.

golem x is targetting mob x, golem y is targetting mob y. If golem x isn't attacking mob x and i try to make golem y target mob x, the golem ignores me despite the mob not being attacked: I can deal with it but it's sorta a major flaw?

Idk how this could be improved but it's the most problematic aspect especially on stuff like broodmother where a golem is blocked by an arm and can't reach a target that the other golem is standing next too (and cannot target)

Metalmancy is good as is (for me), so i don't really think it needs an AoE skill, unless it's very outclassed on later acensions.

shadow delta
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well im talking hgiher ascensions

signal plume
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Volley damage should be multiplicative like everything else instead an additive mult yeah

golden sky
grim sorrel
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Has any one tried a max stat golem setup in higher acensions?

If some one wants to, i can lend my unoptimized charms for that as I'm working on condensing the charm power. I only have a1/a2 unlocked so it;s not much help.

signal plume
golden sky
grim sorrel
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That's been a thing since dd really, not even originating from zenith

And from the sounds of delve modifiers, to me golem lacks the ability to "negate them"
ie projectiles, dread-spiders, etc

golden sky
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Honestly I don't know if the issue is steel being too weak or casters being way too broken rn
I'm more surprised that frost barely took a hit from this weekly update

signal plume
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Frost is a next week thing

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Spoilers!

grim sorrel
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at the same time, i wonder how much making metal hitbox/size different would actually change things
might make it more broken than intended

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I think because it's a golem it's hard to say thing + the ability to taunt fits a golem more/steel theme more. I try to provide a solution to a "problem" that is more feasible and I'm not really seeing one

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Although imo the golem blocking shots is more of a boss thing, from my own experience.
Could make changes for boss-only versus entire run

golden sky
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But this shadow vs caster vs steel argument will always be tricky because there's pretty much only two roles in parties right now: DPS for bosses and AOE for clearing
Assuming caster will always be best for AOE and shadow for DPSing, the only options for steel balancing would be for it to either be good enough at both to outclass them (see EDD meta) or mid at both and become worthless

grim sorrel
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if i am understanding terms right, caster is flame/ice mainly sorta kinda

golden sky
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And lbottles but yes

grim sorrel
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I am more of a this thing that thing person rather than terminology as it's more name i have to remember

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I sort of want to brainstorm metalmancy 'fixes' for later ascensions with stuff like dreads/other modifiers in mind (obviously i know metalmancy can't be a win-it-all skill). probably will do that later.

boreal olive
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to quote bumky

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naw

frigid wing
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Earth becomes useless as a more tanky aoe clear as people have mostly figured out just going more damage means the best defense is a good offense

Wind becomes useless as more cc style other than it's passives for melee because again just killing the mobs is better than pushing them around

Steel becomes useless as a single target/aoe hybrid where just going into the 3 main trees becomes much more effective than trying to be split and the change of pace between it's long range and close range options result in a weird combination.

Dawn is universally useful to have at least one support active and having someone have the passives. I don't see this going out of fashion as a proactive/reactive earth with absorption/healing instead of resistance.

Imo we already have options between fire/ice for AoE damage, but other than wind's passives, there isn't really much variety for single target classes. I'm not sure how people would feel if steel became a ranged alternative that's competitive to shadow's single target tree

fervent pine
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I really wish mobs were rebalanced to have more damage and less health to fix the offense = defense issue

frigid wing
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And again there's not really many ability choices for steel that serve it's purpose for single target other than rapid fire which is a freebie passive you can pick up. All of steel's single target actives are better put to use for other single target abilities on shadow, or picking up a support skill on dawn

fervent pine
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Scrapshot needs a LOT of love to be viable

golden sky
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Range will always be an advantage unless they slap a 4 block range immunity tag on every boss out there imo

frigid wing
# fervent pine I really wish mobs were rebalanced to have more damage and less health to fix th...

It's difficult because way back when R2 content was still being released we had the opposite issue, the best offense was a good defense, which was super boring for the most part and where "buzz lightyear" builds originated from because there wasn't really a reason not to run the build. It would definitely be interesting to see that meta nowadays since it's been ages, but I think the move to fast paced dps style content is more appealing to more people. Obviously though it would be nice if both were required for teams. You can't dps enough without a tank to take damage, and you can't take infinitely without a dps to kill stuff for you

fervent pine
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I'm upset about the enormous health values I have to chew through on Shadow because I don't crutch AS/Flurry to play and my thresholds even after huge charms are sketchy

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max DStrike Amp and 66% Brutalize Damage more specifically

golden sky
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I don't crutch flurry and just leave AOE to casters because they can just nuke things in a 12 block radius anyway but AS is pretty much mandatory imo

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Do I think it's a healthy meta when everyone needs to max out the same skill? No, but this isn't just a shadow problem either and exists for the other "meta" trees as well, but that's well outside the scope for this thread

fervent pine
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I can participate in clear but the casters can kill the elites as efficiently as I can so I don't see the hassle worth it

shadow delta
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pointless cuz u can just do more dps

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its safe i suppose

velvet swift
grim sorrel
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Sounds like the one new starpoint elite, idr the name
More ideas for my brainstorm 🤔

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Since i want to keep the name/skill theme, rather not have parrotmancy or something like that

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(with my ideas)

grim sorrel
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Also just noticed in my ncz, but golem cannot hit the "important" weakspot on broodmother really well at all
I think it's because it doesn't have enough range

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not that it needs more, but I've not noticed this before

fervent pine
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center weakpoint is cramped due to the spider build

dim hatch
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The elephant in the room when it comes to class balancing is that no one on TM plays scout.

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Despite it being the most popular class on the server afaik

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If someone on TM actively played scout/steel, it wouldn't be so awkward. There have been scout bugs that persisted for over a year before stuff was even noticed to be an issue in darkest depths and fixed. And it only got noticed because they got the abilities in depths :/

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Imo it's the root cause of the awkward 'ignore scout until it looks good and then nerf it to the ground' development cycle, it's overlooked and then adjusted with a heavy hand

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There's no real attempt to see if something 'feels good', just throw nerfs at it, who cares, they don't play scout

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Idk. I'm a bit annoyed that steel got nerfed before any other classes in zenith, despite being mediocre even pre nerf

shadow delta
shadow delta
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its very clear with all balance issues going on with scout and overall how content is designed that no one even tests content as scout

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case number one sirius

haughty atlas
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steel is defenietly the worst class if you dont have any charms

gaunt dove
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If this hasn't been said already volley does grant sharpshooter stacks

steel hamlet
kindred heart
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Golem max summon amount + 1

stray temple
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Steel is better than shadow in clear and it can dps safely from a range

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I think it's fine

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I've seen some steels (mscr) dps vesp better than a shadow

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but that was pre rapid fire cap... 😭

dim hatch
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in that video mscr even said he wasnt the main dps there

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and it was a perspective issue

stray temple
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Not basing my judgement on a singular video. I've actually played with mscr and he does a decent amount 😛

feral thorn
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well i feel like steels being good in dd seems more to me of eventually edd will outscale, way beyond a15, and playing slow at range will be your eventual only option to not die immediately

iron nymph
shadow delta
velvet swift
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it's common, but a hard sell to use this when R3 weapons easily outdamage it and the aoe isn't particularly big

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frigid wing
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Firework blast vs 1 cutter of eons hit in a melee set